Working on a new build. Too far in to call it quits so looking for a solution. Headset cups are loose in the tube.
Bottom tube cup slips right in. Very minimal movement back and forth. Less than 1mm. Top tube cup as pictured has a small space where the tube has slightly oval’s. Less than .5mm. Requires a slight press but you can do with your hand. Stays in tight but not the kind of resistance I want when putting in a headset.
Initial thoughts on using loctite 638 just around the cup. The bearings are easy to change so as long as that stays locked in I should be good? Right? I plan on riding heavy on this. But also am too deep to call it this frame. Bike shops have been hesitant to help me out.
2002 Appalachian litespeed (head tube 44mm, not sure the exact as it seems it’s a bit out of shape), bought used from around the cycle
Stridesland 1-1/8” fork
White industries zs44 / zs44 headset.
by Limiting_bed_134
12 Comments
Okay, you just lean dirty ass bike parts right up on the couch, that’s cool
I’ve used 638 before in a similar situation and it worked well. That was a steel frame, but it’s worth a shot.
There are a few steps to consider and try:
New headset, rule out wear and tear on old headset. Could be measured, ineeds accurate tools and decent understanding of how to do so.
Could measure frame and check for ovalization, aka a front-rear dimension is larger than the left-right dimension.
Let’s get to the fun stuff. Say the frame IS ovalized.
Ideal: machine new cups slightly over spec, in order to forcibly pressfit into ovalized head tube.. thus allowing the aluminum to deform as a medium, or potentially force the head tube back into acceptably round. This is what I’d do, but I have a friend with a good lathe, and I can do the math for making the pressfits work.
Sub-ideal but maybe an at-home DIY: get a very sharp punch and a hammer, and hit the inside of the head tube wherever the cups have contact. Your goal would be to dimple the frame and create small ‘craters’ that would take up the slack against the bearing cup. This might be a real PITA on titanium.
Lower still: do the punch-deforming on the headset cups. This will not last long, but might let you get a few rides in.
Last: the loctite you’re looking for is actually green, I think maybe 660 bearing retainer. There are a few but that one takes up the slop. This *may* be the easiest but it would depend on how MUCH slop there is. I can’t recall the range for that.
Measurements would go a long way to determining the best path.
If you are dead set on using this frame as is, that limits your options a bit. The “correct” thing is probably to have a fresh lip welded in top and bottom and remachine/bore the the head tube to the right diameter. Very very pricey, although technically possible.
With your current setup:
Shims – coke can (titanium foil is better to avoid bimetallic corrosion, especially in the head tube with sweat exposure). They’re cheap, available, consistent thickness. Could be other shim stock as well.
-Risk is misalignment, corrosion, weaker connection, irreversible headtube damage
Peening – dimple your head tube from the inside with a punch. This raises a little material in every location. Over the whole surface it (can) adjust fitment.
-Risk is irreversible damage to the frame, visual damage, one time use, probably the most risky and/or annoying
New/custom headset cups – a slightly oversize cup turned down on a lathe or custom machining, very expensive again but not nearly as high as the full frame rework.
-Risk is lack of headset options, finding a good machine shop, and misalignment
There might be some other options, but mostly I can only think of machining or expensive options. Could try to draw the head tube bigger, etc. These are not really even viable ideas.
The ideal situation would be to replace the frame or the headtube. But without doing that … I’d probably shim it.
But like I say, there’s some potential issues there. You can also accidentally crush the shim on install, which can get you into a very literal jam. And the extra material can bulge or expand or even crack the headtube. It’s a finicky imperfect process in the best of times.
Overall a bummer friend. Hope some of this helps.
Retaining compounds like 638 will work is this situation. It’s still not ideal having an oval headtube, but there’s not really another way around it short of taking it to a ti frame building and asking for a price on replacing the head tube.
Otherwise to minimise the gap, you could try and find a headset that’s at the upper end of the tolerance. I’ve come across it in the past where a frame has been at the undersized end of the tolerance and the headset at the oversized end of the tolerance, making for a really really tight fit. Same has gone for the other way around. Now a really tight fit you can do some frame prep so as not to addd additional load to the bearings, but 638 would be the way to go with the loose fit if a tighter cup isn’t available.
in the fourth pic looking down the head tube it looks like there are multiple fatigued / stress areas and maybe even cracks (pubes?). not talking about the weld distortion from the top/down tube, but all over the place if you zoom and scroll around. am i seeing things?
any evident crash damage on the frame? downtube fatigue near the headtube junction? seller disclose anything about it?
seems sketch.
The walls on that headtube are thin as hell. No way I would trust my front teeth with the likely failure you’ll see riding this damaged frame.
If it had been deformed from its original shape the material is already stressed. Forcing a headset in there however you do it will eventually see cracks forming.
That frame predates widespread adoption of 44mm headtubes. It used proprietary aluminum cups that were bonded in. I’d call LS & get their opinion. Unfortunately it might be bound for the scrap bin without some custom machined cups.
First I would get it inspected by a reputable ’pro’ shop that works on high end steel & ti frames and are able to face/chase Ti. I am no expert but I am getting a prickly feeling looking at head tube, especially interior. Worst case scenario scenario have a ti frame repair place replace head tube.
Can you knurl the cups?
I recently installed cups that are definitely not firmly in place. They didn’t have play and weren’t falling out with gravity, but they could be pulled out by hand. I went full send.
I installed the fork, bearings, headset appropriately and the stem and tightened everything up to spec. I checked for play and rattles, everything is firm. Been riding it, no problems. I would abort if it there was play in the cups.
The 2002 Litespeed lineup had proprietary integrated headsets. I’m pretty sure they had custom aluminum cups pressed right into the headtubes.
I couldn’t find a 2002 Litespeed catalog for you online, but I did find a picture of an Appalachian with the original headset. Notice the lack of external cups.
https://preview.redd.it/uekkd6a87s3h1.png?width=1008&format=png&auto=webp&s=9f481e2ef1ca8aeaca38f689834d178e9f602cb4