Francis Dearnley is Executive Editor of audio projects at The Telegraph, including the award-winning podcast ‘Ukraine: The Latest’. Francis has been instrumental in helping to build the world’s most listened to, and award-winning, podcast covering the war in Ukraine. As well as being a highly respected and recognisable voice, he is also a frequent commentator on foreign affairs issues on TV news programmes, radio, and other podcasts.
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LINKS:
https://x.com/FrancisDearnley
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/f/fp-ft/francis-dearnley/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/francisdearnley/
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DESCRIPTION:
King Charles’ Ukraine Speech vs US Action: Europe’s Security, Trump Chaos, and the Collapse of the Old Order
Jonathan interviews Francis Dearnley at The Telegraph’s new video studio about the podcast “Ukraine: The Latest,” then shifts to geopolitics: King Charles’ pro-Ukraine address to Congress contrasted with limited US political action and signs of US disengagement despite a recently unlocked $400 million package and a Europe-buying-weapons workaround. They discuss US internal battles between isolationism and interventionism (Vance vs Rubio), the erosion of the rules-based order, public “boredom” with incremental horror, and the West’s failure of historical imagination about Russian brutality. The conversation turns to Europe’s slow defense mobilization, UK defense review rhetoric vs funding, possible US efforts to weaken Europe, and the need for European strategic planning beyond reliance on America. It ends with historical parallels (1930s, Czechoslovakia, France 1940).
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CHAPTERS:
00:46 Ukraine Podcast Mission
02:08 King Speech vs Policy
03:52 US Aid and Europe Steps Up
05:33 UK Defense Review Alarm
08:09 Vance and Zelensky Clash
11:05 Isolationism vs Interventionism
15:39 Trump Chaos Not Ideology
18:24 Rules Order Unraveling
20:14 War Fatigue and Attention
23:38 Russia Horror Imagination Gap
26:14 Gulag Memory and Blindness
28:19 Communism Crimes Forgotten
31:24 Russia’s Lost Path
32:25 Weakening Europe’s Defenses
34:19 Intentionality or Chaos
38:07 Guttting US Statecraft
39:40 Managerial Leaders Era
43:57 What Makes Leadership
46:09 Populism and Principles
51:51 Nationalism After Order
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34 Comments
Where do these idiots come from? Read Provoked by Scott Horton,War with Russia by Stephen F Cohen and Hubris by Jonathan Haslam..these idiots obviously have not..try to understand geopolitics …
Agree— excellent
My, such a great conversation.
I could go on listening forever.
Marvellous contrast to all the superficious talk you often have to stomach.
Thank you from Austria!
I' d like to know the tile of the book it took Francis a year to get through.
What everyone forgets about Trotsky is the Red Terror. It wasn't just in Russia that it happened. Anyone seen as "a white" meaning a supporter of the aristocracy was literally murdered by their neighbors. I think only France experienced something similar to eastern Europe and Russia. But it's the Bolsheviks who created that class hatred. Every time in college that some dork tried to broadside me I told them to keep their red terror lit away from me. Amazing how many of them think they're being "peaceful" and working for "freedom." 🙄
The two of you make a great team, very interesting discussion and perspectives, you should do this more often.
Love the comments re what makes a great PM. I think one of the great mistakes Labour made was manipulating the vote to anoint Ed rather than David Milliband. An opportunity lost. It is also why I am so angry with Angela Raynor…..she could have been that person. Both are Labour….I don’t support any party blindly. I only support those I think can do best for the country so this is not the view of a staunch Labour supporter.
Gentlemen, thank you so much for having this conversation and sharing it with us.
I would love to have this be a regular event, particularly with the rapidity of change we are all seeing and how "the global order" is changing and struggling with the "might is right" mentality.
Bizarrely enough, I find myself reflecting on 2 passages from the Harry Potter series (which I will repeat from memory so they might be a little off but the essence remains).
Book 1: Voldemort tells Harry that "there is no good and evil, there is only power and those too weak to claim it"
Dumbledore telling Harry, in book 6 I believe, that the followers of Voldemort come in 3 groups:
"The weak, seeking someone to protect them."
"The greedy, seeking to share in the spoils."
"The thugs, looking for new ways to hurt people."
I am a child of British parents who moved to Canada in the 50s then had their children. I grew up hearing stories from them and from my grandparents about fighting in WWI and living through the events at home during the threat of Hitler reaching British soil. My love of history flows from that and from my schooling and self learning over decades.
I look around at the current world leaders and wonder who can step up and lead what I will call "a moral and principled world."
I wonder what you two think of Canadian PM Mark Carney, who I think has competency, some charisma and some ability to "cut through" (as I understand it 😅) ?
I truly enjoyed this conversation and am saving it for a repeat listen.
I have been following you both, separately, and I truly want to see/hear this combination with some frequency 😁
Funny how these guys talk, in a very informed way, on how Bolsheviks and overall communist ideology caused tremendous suffering in Russia, and how it started with venom and hate towards middle class, property and capital, and at the same time they seem to remain completely oblivious to the fact that it's the same rhetoric and policies on the part of US Democratic party that resulted in Trump winning the presidency
So cool to you guys together here, very much appreciated this intellectual conversation, I also watch Ukrain the Latest.
I am a firm believer in Democracy, and opposed to Authoritarian governments, Ukrain is defending us in this respect.
Thanks guys
I really enjoyed this. A lot to think about.
Two greay guys. Great pleasure to listen to them❤
how disappointing, the western journalist COULD NOT HELP HIMSELF and just HAD TO GO ON A SCHPEEL about how hard poor russians had it with the bolsheviks, they just can't wrap their minds around that russians are the creators of the system that ultimately kills them and they have no one to blame but themselves , they are not to be victimized
Thank you both for a great conversation and for your individual regular pods. The rise of Donald Trump is about the failure of the democratic institutions that are supposed to curb extremism, including Citizens United, which was the most destructive Supreme Court decision since Dred Scot (which led to the American Civil War). As the rise of Vladimir Putin is about the failure of the West to support Russian democracy after 1990 with an updated Marshall-type plan like we did in Western Europe and Japan after 1945. The West (including the Londongrad) got greedy and lazy and stopped putting our treasure and considered policy in the right places. JD Vance is young but he knows his political career is over. It's impossible to know what Mike Johnson's thinking because he has no integrity at all. Francis Fukuyama is a great guy but he's a college professor. He's about ideas. Again, he was taken so literally because it's easier that way.
The last time a party came out with a vision for the future was an abstract concept of society proposed by Cameron. None of the parties came up with any visions for the country in the last 10 years.
The government plays stupid games and wins stupid prices.
If the government would focus on the internal affairs they would be hands on working on implementation of state wide anti-drone air-defence system role out. So far we cannot see anything like that. The focus is on building attack drones, not preventing them hitting UK mainland, UK bases and UK ships.
The government was sleepwalking into the age of drones, both naval and air with outdated expensive tech and is not ready for anything that is to come but is cheering up all sort of incredible gambles with doubtful outcomes.
The way I see it – you need cheap energy to build competitive military complex. You sanction cheap energy resources and you are at a disadvantage to America who will pursue their own interest including high oil prices in international markets.
So now you depend on American financial system, on American more expensive energy resources, on American military industrial complex. But what does UK bring to the equation? A place for American bases? The King? Labour pool for American economy? It just becomes a burden for American financial system. A burden that needs to be subsidised so that it could purchase more American goods.
When you talk about concentration camps you should not shy away from mentioning the ones in US including the one operated in guantanamo and secret CIA prisons in Eastern Europe. You see this is the part of the age we live in but we don't want to see or advertise, same way there are camps on ukrainian territory run by ukrainian state that were liberated and documented. It is not like this is all in the past. Torture is by every means is used today.
For or against genocide?
So… entertaining (if it wasn't sad)?
I enjoyed this conversation alot and can agree on almost everthing.
On 55:00
The western campaign wasnt won by just better coordination but very importantly by moral.
This region still very well remembered the horrors and destruction of WW1. Which it was the main battlefield for all of that war.
The german army recently shown in Poland that they will burn down everything if it is not surrendering instantly.
And they burned down Rotterdam on the 4th day of the campaign.
The dominant airforce and the will to use it to spread terror was a essential part in the victory of the Battle of France.
Britain was pretty save on its island while Belgium, the Netherlands and France were faced with the complete destruction of their countries.
Johnson understood. He’s a smart guy. I dislike him but he’s not stupid
If you want to know Trump's motivation try thinking of an Al Capone that keeps forgetting his current endeavour and is thus forced to find a new endeavour to take it's place.
And another point is that I don't want the people of Ukraine to suffer in anyway, they are my distant ancestors, but I want to see those Russian bastards burn!!!
My father went to Europe to defend democracy in WWII, as his father did in WWI. But my father always said that the Russian's were worse than the NAZI'S, it's just the NAZI'S were very meticulous in their accounting and the industrial way they committed genocide and murder. The Russians killed masses of people who inhabited the country's that they conquered, but they just pointed their finger's at the NAZI'S and say, they did it, they did it!!!
As an ex police officer, I place a prostitute morally higher than a lawyer. A prostitute sells her body to keep his soul while a lawyer sells his soul to keep his body.
Your subscriptions and views state
authoritatively this channel is good for nothing.
Leonid Slutsky (Leader of the Liberal Democrat party — LDPR):
“All those who speak about ‘imaginary’ Nazism in Ukraine
should now choke on their own stupidity,”
Well, Pommey mongrels
have never been good for anything
but self-promotion.
John Stuart Mill (1806 – 1873):
“I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid;
I meant, that stupid persons are generally conservative.”
The Torygraph is a banch of the Ministry of Silly Walks.
Voltaire:
“Those who can make you believe absurdities
can make you commit atrocities.”
Moliere:
”When a Clown moves into a Palace,
he does not become a King.
…the Palace becomes a circus."
Gut it out ?… the globalist fixers have been grifting the US.
Starmer & company have no plan , no idea what is at stake , Must function in “ fixed game “… but are inept in the world of without rules.
You guys are all in for “ the fixed control system “… Trump is showing you that true advancement is possible by “ learning the new wide open game – open innovation “.
We do better with common sense – innovation –
& rejecting the notion that globalizatism is more important than MAGA & ideology of nationalism.
Globalism equates to stagnation – lacking innovation- a subtle push to authoritarianism.
BrUh, when you reflect 4x more light than a Britt, is time to absorb a little UV.
My one regret in life, is these two don't have more chats together.
Both do incredible work.
This was enjoyable and interesting, thank you!
Such a fascinating chat ❤
Both of U lads, (🇺🇦🇩🇰🇺🇦)
are guys I admire & identify with ✊🌟💪❤❤✌👌👍
May we reach calmer shores
❤⚡💥Free Ukraine 💥⚡❤
But you miss the most important thing, which is that potential leaders of all colours now have a sense that they can get away with anything.
Sorry, but Vitaly Portnikov is not a russian journalist. He is a Ukrainian journalist and moreover, he has always highlighted this fact, even during his years of work in Russia. Sure he would be furious to hear it from you😅
Just like Putin, both Trump and Vance NEED TO GO. I am so horribly ashamed of the DC leadership (if that is what you can call it, other than a JOKE and a very bad one at that). There are a vast majority of Americans who DO SUPPORT Ukraine. I don't hear many caring that much about Iran because most don't know what it's all about or understand it. If Iran had declared formal war and attacked Israel or other allies in the region aggressively and without provocation, I think they would care and support the mission to support those regional allies.
Thank you, Jonathan and Francis Dearnley, for another excellent exchange. Looking forward to your next conversation.
🇺🇦 Перемоги та миру всім українцям! 🇺🇦
It is clear that the USA is no longer a trusted partner for European policy. There was a feeling that the first Trump presidency was an exception to be endured, and that things would revert to normal international relations under Biden. But then the US elected him again. So now, frankly, the US cannot be trusted. It is no longer an ally or a friend to anyone.
The mistake would be to think that this aberration will end with Trump. Perhaps a Democrat will be elected next, but after that Vance could stand, or someone else in the same mould. America cannot be trusted. It is an empire in decline, and we should do everything to protect ourselves from it.
We have to move away from every military, economic, social and cultural relationship with America. The US should be seen as a pariah state: untrustworthy and genuinely threatening to Europe.