Hi! Im an experienced bikepacker and with a friend we're going to go to Morocco for two weeks ad the end of April. Since we always travel in 3-8 ppl we thought that was a good idea to open our adventure to anybody that wanted to join (provided that they're fit enough, with the proper gear, ready to suffer a bit and – possibly – nice people to have around).
No money involved ofc, and a clear indication that we'll be going together, we dont babysit anybody and we do not take responsibility for any problem that might happen (though we'll be in that together and we'll support each other of course).
We shared the idea and the invitation in a few Italian fb bikepacking/bike travelling groups and some ppl was very upset by the fact that we – according to them – are exposing ourselves to great risks because once we propose this, even if we're not paid, we're legally responsible for any issue that might arise, to the point that they can sue us and the law would take us 100% accountable as "organizers".
This comes partly from people that work as a guide, and they kinda feel threaten by what they perceive as unfair competition (even if we dont compete with them, if something we widen the pool of people that does this kind of activity, and they should be anything but upset)
Is it a concrete risk, even with a signed waiver? Should we take any other precaution?
Any advice or relevant experience on the matter? thanks!
this is the website that we set up to explain the offer (in italian)
by smagliante
5 Comments
Interesting question. Admitting my lack of direct experience in this area, since I’m usually a participant and a rare organizer, it’s always a soft risk to invite friends who you haven’t bikepacked with, bikepacking the first time. More to the point, here in the US, all the larger cycling groups I ride with post disclaimers on their event pages. I’m not sure the disclaimers would actually hold up in court. You might reduce risk by relying more on word of mouth than a semi-permanent (ahem, permanent) web post.
Thats actually a very complex issue that will depend on the country, maybe the country of origin of the participants, experience levels, etc etc.
Might not even be the guy going after you but his insurance for example.
Theres tons of cases in the Alps. Sometimes the organizer is not held liable, sometimes youre liable if your first date breaks an ankle on a 2km easy hike and her insurance sues because of the experience gap.
The legal aspect is hard to answer because it obviously depends on Italian/Morocco laws. I’m from Germany and I would at least check, that you are on the clear legally. If you have a website and invite people you didn’t know prior, I can see, that to some people you would seem like some kind of organisation. Maybe have them sign some kind of liability exclusion. But my guess is, that it will be absolutely fine.
But in general I really like the idea and think bikepacking is an awesome way to meet new people.
This is a question for an attorney with licensure and experience in the relevant jurisdictions, not Reddit.
I don’t speak Italian but it looks strange. You ‘no money involved’ and it’s just people but that kind of vague formulation together with other stuff (Prices on website, FAQ section, signed waivers, etc. ) surely gives the vibe of a business. If you act like one a waiver won’t prevent someone from suing you. And in case someone get hurt a judge has to decide based the given information.
From my time climbing mountains I learned that in such groups (epecially beginners) have a very wrong feeling of security. They trust someone that said you are on your own – but on their own they would never do such a thing. So ask yourself if you want to be the guy that ultimatly gets the fingers pointed at if something goes wrong.
Would you be responsible? Maybe. Would a waiver prevent shit? Maybe. Would you still have to go to court if something bad happens? Most likely. But surly that can’t be worth it. Just ride with your friends, keep it small and if you want to do such a thing then get up some official business, training and insurance. It’s not the world to set up a company and do it official.