I discuss baptism, salvation and being born again with Ian of Early Christian Beliefs. Special emphasis is placed on the Early Church Fathers, the Catechism of Trent, and following the logic of the arguments to see where they lead in this video.
Living Echoes is committed to the Divine Revelation of Jesus Christ and upholding the faith of the Fathers.
You can check out his channel below:
https://www.youtube.com/@UCHw3sUeVHijwH_khemQCw-g
And please subscribe to the Living Echoes Newsletter just in case social media ever censors us: https://living-echoes.ghost.io/
15 Comments
Thank you again Alex for having me on to talk with you! Sorry I had to skip out early!
St. Ambrose, De mysteriis, 390-391 A.D.:
“You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood, and the spirit; and if you withdraw any one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element without any sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ [John 3:5] Even a catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which also he is signed; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins nor be recipient of the gift of spiritual grace.”
Absolute necessity of Sacramental Baptism taught by the Church does exclude salvation without Baptism, celebrated in water.
Disagreements about BOD, or BOB of the theologians, lack of clear Papal statement about it points to no universal consent, and lack of Universal Ordinary Magisterium on the matter point to the fact that it's not Church teaching.
I believe there is a misunderstanding regarding nature of the Christian martyrdom, and that those who shed a blood for the Christ are automatically incorporated into Mystical Body of Christ without water baptism, instead of them receiving crown of martyrdom in addition to robes of theirs already washed, and whitened in the Lamb's blood in prior sacrament of Baptism, in which supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity is infused into a person and allows him to go to a martyrdom:
Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 6, Chap. 7 on Justification, ex cathedra:
“Justification … is not merely remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man… Hence man through Jesus Christ, into whom he is ingrafted, receives in the said justification together with the remission of sins all these gifts infused at the same time: faith, hope and charity.”
It's useful then to look for the Biblical parallels… look are house of bondage / sin: Egypt. Those who listened to Moses killed a lamb, and stained door frame with blood of that lamb, so the angel of death wouldn't enter and kill all the firstborn males in that house. Those who didn't listen to Moses: Had their family loosing their first born males. It wasn't sufficient to call yourself a Jew, and believe in God. Those firstborn males would die yet in house of bondage, they couldn't cross the red sea (parallel of the water baptism) and begin their pilgrimage to the promised land (that parallels New Jerusalem).
I want to reiterate… those who were afraid, and stayed in Egypt, or just didn't follow Moses out of Egypt, and through the Red Sea -> They died in house of bondage. To even begin to walk towards the New Jerusalem – you need to cross waters, you need to wash your robes in Lamb's blood… and continue in bosom and unity of the Catholic Church just like those who followed Moses, and Joshua to Jerusalem.
After Cantate Domino:
" and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church".
I would weight in on "more glorious", or "less glorious"… this is beyond the point just to be honest. One that believes in Christ should look beyond that.
It's surely very glorious to conquer Jerusalem from Saracens done by nobles, knights, and crusaders, for the Church – in human eyes… for many even much more glorious than to be martyred.
How much more glorious is when Christ's merit is applied via Sacrament of Baptism to rescue a person from the darkness of sin… King of King's Himself breaking peoples chains of bondage, infusing them with Faith, Hope, Charity, cleaning them from all filth, and adopting them to his own family. Isn't that something most glorious, it's earth shattering?
This is how glorious God is, and how generous for those who listen His words, and act it out.
John 3:5.
You mentioned the "age of reason" during this video, but I've noticed that this qualification is not given by the Church in many of her dogmatic statements. For example, Mystici Corporis Christi doesn't say "actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith [if above the age of reason]". Similarly, Unam Sanctam doesn't say "furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature [above the age of reason] be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
What is your basis for assuming that this qualification applies in all cases when the Church only specifies "age of reason" in particular cases?
Clarification: I did not intend to deny that BoB or BoD was Ordinary Magisterium. I was just trying to avoid discussing weather or not it was Magisterium.
I did affirm that I believe the Council of Teaches BoD.
Even the thumbnail is false doctrine!
Matthew 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Matthew 3:13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
So as for the listener Question why cannot one be saved only with the water but no intention to be baptized.
My answer I am not aware of any Catholic ever who tought that.
The visiting Angel at a persons impending death comes from the heretical Luisa Piccaretta
For three hours, while Ian was on the screen, I waited to hear the famous quote from Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and EVEN IF HE HAS SHED BLOOD in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."
Maybe someone should tell Ian that shedding blood gets you NOWHERE, if you are NOT a baptized member of The Church.
Outstanding work Alexander
With all Christian charity, Ian conducted his discourse on the points of contention most disingenuously. His position is logically untenable, and he knows it. He holds to the absurd notion that since a phrase was never verbatim condemned, it cannot be definitively considered erroneous. On the one hand, he professes adherence to what was held "always, everywhere, and by all", and on the other hand, because he finds a few disparate, non-dogmatic writings in support of BOB/D, sees fit to doubt the overwhelming body of evidence which completely demolishes the foundation upon which BOB/D rests. He should refrain from teaching these concepts which he, of his own admission, is not prepared to defend. (Edited for clarity.)
47:45 I'm confused about how this can be true for those raised by non-Christians and below the age of reason. How can we say that they had sufficient grace to be saved, and that they chose to be damned? Seems false
1:07:50 I'm sorry, but what do you mean by this? Because it sounds like Sola Scriptura to me
There are countless things we believe that Christ did not teach while on earth, but that He does teach through His Church
1:23:30 This line of questioning also applies to the forgiveness of personal sins via an act of perfect contrition. Is that a Sacrament? No, it's not, but it has the same grace as the Sacrament of Penance.
1:28:11 Doesn't the declaration of the Dogma of the IC itself count as a correction? I don't see why anyone would need to correct him when the Church clearly settled the issue.
But according to you, the Church has settled the matter on BOD/BOB long before Aquinas and the numerous catechisms that teach BOD/BOB, so why haven't they been corrected?