[Ep. 1054] The Dutch are serious about cycling and keeping cycling safe. So why don’t they just build protected cycle paths everywhere? Find out in this video.
More information in the blog post: https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/?p=26283
Besides the fact that the bicycle is seen as a fully-fledged means of transport in the Netherlands and not as a toy for health freaks. There is something else that is often missing in these kinds of videos (however excellent this video is, my compliments!).
Cyclists (incl. e-bikes), pedestrians, mopeds, mobility scooters and I think even people on horseback are seen as 'vulnerable road users'. In the event of a collision involving a car and a vulnerable road user, the driver of the car is held liable for at least fifty percent of the damage in almost all cases (a few very exceptional situations aside), even if the motorist is not at fault. This means that motorists usually drive carefully when they share the road with cyclists. Unfortunately, this often also means that some cyclists think they are invulnerable when they participate in traffic.
In addition, almost all Dutch children, when they are about eleven years old, receive traffic lessons at school, these lessons are concluded with an exam, in which they have to put what they have learned into practice. Finally, getting a driver's license is not very easy in the Netherlands, a candidate has to take two exams, theory and practice. Both exams are certainly not easy.
In the UK there is a fair and "controversial" amount of 20mph (32khp) zones. Part of that controversy is that these limits seem to also apply to cyclists and is impacting cycling events/races that either cannot use the routes that they used previously or are having to detour if possible. Is this affecting Dutch cycling events/races and if not how is this the case?
in the U.S., we sometimes call these slow, mixed-traffic areas “bike boulevards” or “neighborhood greenways” when they are included as deliberate parts of cycling networks
Because cars are second class citizens in residential areas. The only thing we need to change is to make the sidewalks connected instead of the roads to make that even more clear.
Going to say it over and over until people understand it, but the Netherlands isn't just great for bikes, it's great for cars also, since my average speed is way closer to what the street actually indicates.
50 kph is fine where there are separated cycle paths. In my town (Apeldoorn) there are some long, straight roads where the speed limit is 30 kph and which have unseparated red cycle lanes, but there are alternative 50kph routes for cars. These have separated cycle paths and are mostly not lined with houses. To reduce the speed limits on these roads would be unnecessary, impractical and probably politically impossible. Wales, a hilly country where few people cycle so not exactly comparable with the Netherlands, recently introduced a blanket 20 mph (roughly 30 kph) speed limit in towns, which has been so unpopular and unsuccessful that many roads are now having their speed limits changed back to 30 mph.
Een reactie in het Nederlands want het betreft het land waar ik in woon en leef.
Het doorvoeren van alleen maar 30km zones door elke stad is leuk, maar het moet wel werken. Te veel wordt er gekeken of het een verbetering is in het algemeen, en dat is het vaak ook wel. Doch mag er net zoveel rekening mee gehouden worden dat er een goede doorstroming van verkeer moet kunnen plaatsvinden. Een ringweg is immers geen woonerf! Dat er maatregelen worden genomen om het voor fietsers en wandelaars veiliger te maken steun ik voor 100%, maar de auto voor 100% verbannen is niet haalbaar.
Een opmerking; De snelste route tussen twee punten is vaak geen treinverbinding of een OV verbinding.
Iets te veel wordt er gekeken naar steden waar veel mensen dicht bij elkaar wonen en werken en gedacht wordt dat iedereen op fietsafstand van zijn of haar werk woont. Maar er zijn genoeg werkgevers welke op ongebruikelijke plaatsen gevestigd zijn en geen 24/7 goede OV verbinding heeft. Als een autorit er 15-20 minuten over doet en hetzelfde stuk per OV dan is de keuze snel gemaakt.
A general speed limit to 30kph would be annoying for those riding S-Pedelecs. There wouldn't be much reason anymore to buy one. They already banned them from cycle paths.
I am not sure If I like the direction this is going.
For the citizens living in the city's the trend towards more 30 km/h zones is beneficial. However, for a region as a whole, where the city's still have a main function for working and shopping/cultural activities is is less clear. The more rural areas will depend more on car as the main means of transportation, as public transport to/from these areas is too expensive and the distances for cycling are too big. Making P&R-locations at the borders of the city's is very expensive and often space is also limited. Here in the Netherlands the city's demand most of the available money for investments for and running of public transport, so an improvement of public transportation in rural areas isn't happening.
Travel speeds for cars in the city will reduce and travel times will rise. This makes going to the city unattractive. The city's create a virtual wall around then, a bit like in medieval times. People will want to move to the city (higher housing prices) or work will move to the outskirts. So the way forward is a more whole approach.
Same thing happened when snelweg speeds were reduced to 100 km/h, making them the same speed as autowegen despite having wider lanes, matrix boards, hard shoulders, no traffic lights and longer merging lanes. I'd propose lowering the speed of autowegen to 80 km/h and lowering the residential zones down to 20 km/h to at least have a clear distinction, though then you're still left with design speeds being higher than speed limits, but I think we'll just get used to that.
Seeing a LOT of footage from my old neighbourhood (Graafsewijk in 's-Hertogenbosch) in this video does my heart good ♥ seeing that i grew up there since my parents moved here from Japan when i was 4 Dutch bike path infrastructure in Den Bosch is good, learned to ride my first bike in the Cypresstraat
Available space, associated cost and lack of need.
You don't need a separate bike path next to every single road when cyclists have plenty good ways to get around.
As for the 30km zones, tbh the cyclists are the true terror in those, and that's prior to fatbikes. Not minding their environment, not adhering to their place in the road, often even going counterflow to save 2 seconds
1)What is most striking to me in this video is how nobody was wearing a helmet, even children! Why? What is their argument/philosophy behind not wearing a helmet? 2) I am also curious to know how prevalent bike theft if and how it is combated?
the funny thing is, 30 is often quicker than 50, better flow of traffic, more options for roundaboits instead of traffic lights etc. and innbuay cities its more often than not a challange to get to 50 anyways.
I'm German, but my partner lives in the Netherlands, therefore I'm regularly in your country (Provincie Noord Holland). I noticed that the by far greatest majority of Dutch cyclists are very disciplined and follow the traffic rules, which makes them predictable, even as a car driver. I know what to expect. Ok, I understand that there are some exceptions, especially with teenagers riding illegally modified electric "fat bikes". In Germany it often seems that cyclists see themselves as ecological warriors and above the law, which makes them very unpredictable. on the road.
I think that the real answer to "Why won't the Dutch build protected cycle paths everywhere?" is that we have not yet conquered the rest of the world. But we will get to that when we turned the rest of the oceans into more polder with our mecha windmills.
We have those "fietsstraat" areas in Middelburg, but the roads are wide enough for cars to pass and very smooth. This leads to a lot of drivers honking at cyclists to get out of the way, while they have the right of way on that road. I wish the local government would place some speeding cameras cause I have not see any drivers, apart from the very polite German tourists, driving the speed-limit of 30 km/h. Heck, it's not uncommon to see someone drive 3 times that speed, because the roads are so smooth and wide. It's a wonder there are not more accidents on these roads.
From what I hear when talking to people who drive in Middelburg, it comes down to wanting to be comfortable instead of cold. Almost everything and even nearby towns are within reasonable cycling distance. If those people decide to cycle instead of drive, it should be a significant reduction in cars on the roads where most people cycle.
I really don't understand how a 30km/h limit in built up areas would cause confusion. You remove all "30 zone" signs and put up "50" signs on main roads, after every intersection.
When it comes to speed limits, Sweden has them all: 30 km/h on domestic streets and outside schools. 40 km/h in roads surrounding domestic zones and some larger through traffic roads. 50 km/h as the base speed in built up areas. 60 km/h when 70 is too much and 50 is too slow. 70 km/h is the base speed outside built up areas, and in high traffic roads cutting through bult up areas. 90 km/h is the default speed for a paved rural road (more or less) in good shape. 80 km/h is the speed when the 90 km/h road is not maintaned properly or have lots of traffic and incidents. 100 km/h on 1/2 roads or 1/1 roads with a central division (typically cable barrier) 110 km/h and 120 km/h is for 2+2 dual carriage motor ways.
Of course, the local municipality can just set any speed limit really, so there are plenty of intersting things like slowing down from 80 or 90 to 60 or 70 when there is a road crossing. (all combinations are possible including 80-70 and 90-60).
Mostly is is just a mess to keep track of what the speed limit is, as any general rules like the ones I listed above are far from consistent.
Very great point! I live in a little village in the Netherlands, and despite having very little or no dedicated bike lanes, it's still very safe to cycle because the streets are very narrow cobblestones with lots of raised intersections, speed bumps, and bollards to deflect car traffic to only the main roads.
If you don't let cars use your neighborhood as a through way, then you don't need bike lanes! Only when there's higher speeds or lots of car traffic (which it should be attempted to not have at all)
The lowering of the speed to 30 kph and flow times of traffic through a city also has proven the main argument of many people that "lower speeds makes travel times longer and thus should be avoided" isn't true. The average speed while crossing through a city is about 26 kph as there is a lot of accelerating and slowing down in between traffic lights/intersections/roundabouts/etc.. A lower maximum speed, closer to the average is helping to maintain the flow, allowing more vehicles per kilometer street (shorter distance between vehicles possible and less harmonica effect due to stopping/accelerating traffic). And the main arguments for lowering the speed are less accidents because of shorter stopping distances, less injuries because of lesser impact by lower speed, less pollution and lesser sound/vibrations due to the lower speed (which are mainly reported by citizen along these roads).
I was in Eindhoven recently and the new 30km/h speed limit on the main road that goes through the residential area was super weird. From the feel of the road you get the idea that it's a 50km/h road, but they just slapped the new lower speed limit on it and call it a day it seems. I hope they take steps to make sure the road also naturally feels like a 30km/h road, otherwise I expect a lot of people to miss the speed limit.
These shared 30 kmhs roads are often fine for an experienced cyclist, but I'm not convinced they're always the best solution for all cyclists. E.g. in my hometown I know of at least 2 instances of a main cycle route that feeds into a cluster of elementary schools, and that on the way passes by a shopping centre. In both cases, those routes were originally built with seperated bike paths. And in both cases, those have now been replaced with mixed 30 kmh traffic. Meaning that the wobbly 8 year old biking to school by herself now has to mix in with the stream of SUVs going to the stores to buy a pack of milk. Naturally, many parents don't like that, and then decide to bring their 8 year school by car (in an SUV, of course). Which convinces even more parents that the route isn't safe to bike…
46 Comments
Besides the fact that the bicycle is seen as a fully-fledged means of transport in the Netherlands and not as a toy for health freaks. There is something else that is often missing in these kinds of videos (however excellent this video is, my compliments!).
Cyclists (incl. e-bikes), pedestrians, mopeds, mobility scooters and I think even people on horseback are seen as 'vulnerable road users'. In the event of a collision involving a car and a vulnerable road user, the driver of the car is held liable for at least fifty percent of the damage in almost all cases (a few very exceptional situations aside), even if the motorist is not at fault. This means that motorists usually drive carefully when they share the road with cyclists. Unfortunately, this often also means that some cyclists think they are invulnerable when they participate in traffic.
In addition, almost all Dutch children, when they are about eleven years old, receive traffic lessons at school, these lessons are concluded with an exam, in which they have to put what they have learned into practice. Finally, getting a driver's license is not very easy in the Netherlands, a candidate has to take two exams, theory and practice. Both exams are certainly not easy.
In the UK there is a fair and "controversial" amount of 20mph (32khp) zones. Part of that controversy is that these limits seem to also apply to cyclists and is impacting cycling events/races that either cannot use the routes that they used previously or are having to detour if possible. Is this affecting Dutch cycling events/races and if not how is this the case?
You get a test at school ,like a car licence,at the age of 6 or 7.
While the speed bumps are likely to be effective, as someone who gets slightly car sick those are a goddamn sickness. Literally.
in the U.S., we sometimes call these slow, mixed-traffic areas “bike boulevards” or “neighborhood greenways” when they are included as deliberate parts of cycling networks
Because cars are second class citizens in residential areas. The only thing we need to change is to make the sidewalks connected instead of the roads to make that even more clear.
Going to say it over and over until people understand it, but the Netherlands isn't just great for bikes, it's great for cars also, since my average speed is way closer to what the street actually indicates.
50 kph is fine where there are separated cycle paths. In my town (Apeldoorn) there are some long, straight roads where the speed limit is 30 kph and which have unseparated red cycle lanes, but there are alternative 50kph routes for cars. These have separated cycle paths and are mostly not lined with houses. To reduce the speed limits on these roads would be unnecessary, impractical and probably politically impossible. Wales, a hilly country where few people cycle so not exactly comparable with the Netherlands, recently introduced a blanket 20 mph (roughly 30 kph) speed limit in towns, which has been so unpopular and unsuccessful that many roads are now having their speed limits changed back to 30 mph.
Een reactie in het Nederlands want het betreft het land waar ik in woon en leef.
Het doorvoeren van alleen maar 30km zones door elke stad is leuk, maar het moet wel werken. Te veel wordt er gekeken of het een verbetering is in het algemeen, en dat is het vaak ook wel. Doch mag er net zoveel rekening mee gehouden worden dat er een goede doorstroming van verkeer moet kunnen plaatsvinden. Een ringweg is immers geen woonerf! Dat er maatregelen worden genomen om het voor fietsers en wandelaars veiliger te maken steun ik voor 100%, maar de auto voor 100% verbannen is niet haalbaar.
Een opmerking; De snelste route tussen twee punten is vaak geen treinverbinding of een OV verbinding.
Iets te veel wordt er gekeken naar steden waar veel mensen dicht bij elkaar wonen en werken en gedacht wordt dat iedereen op fietsafstand van zijn of haar werk woont. Maar er zijn genoeg werkgevers welke op ongebruikelijke plaatsen gevestigd zijn en geen 24/7 goede OV verbinding heeft. Als een autorit er 15-20 minuten over doet en hetzelfde stuk per OV dan is de keuze snel gemaakt.
A general speed limit to 30kph would be annoying for those riding S-Pedelecs. There wouldn't be much reason anymore to buy one. They already banned them from cycle paths.
I am not sure If I like the direction this is going.
For the citizens living in the city's the trend towards more 30 km/h zones is beneficial. However, for a region as a whole, where the city's still have a main function for working and shopping/cultural activities is is less clear. The more rural areas will depend more on car as the main means of transportation, as public transport to/from these areas is too expensive and the distances for cycling are too big. Making P&R-locations at the borders of the city's is very expensive and often space is also limited. Here in the Netherlands the city's demand most of the available money for investments for and running of public transport, so an improvement of public transportation in rural areas isn't happening.
Travel speeds for cars in the city will reduce and travel times will rise. This makes going to the city unattractive. The city's create a virtual wall around then, a bit like in medieval times. People will want to move to the city (higher housing prices) or work will move to the outskirts. So the way forward is a more whole approach.
Same thing happened when snelweg speeds were reduced to 100 km/h, making them the same speed as autowegen despite having wider lanes, matrix boards, hard shoulders, no traffic lights and longer merging lanes. I'd propose lowering the speed of autowegen to 80 km/h and lowering the residential zones down to 20 km/h to at least have a clear distinction, though then you're still left with design speeds being higher than speed limits, but I think we'll just get used to that.
As a Dutch/Japanese Citizen
Seeing a LOT of footage from my old neighbourhood (Graafsewijk in 's-Hertogenbosch) in this video does my heart good ♥
seeing that i grew up there since my parents moved here from Japan when i was 4
Dutch bike path infrastructure in Den Bosch is good,
learned to ride my first bike in the Cypresstraat
The fact that somebody who knows nothing about urban design, feels all of this unconsciously while living in Nederlands, that is beautiful to me.
Available space, associated cost and lack of need.
You don't need a separate bike path next to every single road when cyclists have plenty good ways to get around.
As for the 30km zones, tbh the cyclists are the true terror in those, and that's prior to fatbikes.
Not minding their environment, not adhering to their place in the road, often even going counterflow to save 2 seconds
A lot of it is the fact that (almost) every Dutch driver grew up being “the bicyclist”.
Awareness and Empathy are powerful safety factors.
1)What is most striking to me in this video is how nobody was wearing a helmet, even children! Why? What is their argument/philosophy behind not wearing a helmet?
2) I am also curious to know how prevalent bike theft if and how it is combated?
Zoetermeer would be a good example. its very well designed with main roads, roundabouts, tunnels etc etc
the funny thing is, 30 is often quicker than 50, better flow of traffic, more options for roundaboits instead of traffic lights etc. and innbuay cities its more often than not a challange to get to 50 anyways.
Because we don't need them, basically everyone here uses a bike every now & then especially in more urban areas
Bicycle knowledge to sleep to:)
I'm German, but my partner lives in the Netherlands, therefore I'm regularly in your country (Provincie Noord Holland). I noticed that the by far greatest majority of Dutch cyclists are very disciplined and follow the traffic rules, which makes them predictable, even as a car driver. I know what to expect. Ok, I understand that there are some exceptions, especially with teenagers riding illegally modified electric "fat bikes".
In Germany it often seems that cyclists see themselves as ecological warriors and above the law, which makes them very unpredictable. on the road.
You reminded me of Chriet Titulaer. That put a smile on my face.
I think that the real answer to "Why won't the Dutch build protected cycle paths everywhere?" is that we have not yet conquered the rest of the world.
But we will get to that when we turned the rest of the oceans into more polder with our mecha windmills.
you drove right past my house, thats surreal
People that ask this question are living in fear.
Nice pictures of The city of 's-Hertogenbosch.
There are even 10 km/h zones in residential areas without through-roads. "Woonerf". Basically the Dutch version of a cul-de-sac.
We have those "fietsstraat" areas in Middelburg, but the roads are wide enough for cars to pass and very smooth. This leads to a lot of drivers honking at cyclists to get out of the way, while they have the right of way on that road. I wish the local government would place some speeding cameras cause I have not see any drivers, apart from the very polite German tourists, driving the speed-limit of 30 km/h. Heck, it's not uncommon to see someone drive 3 times that speed, because the roads are so smooth and wide. It's a wonder there are not more accidents on these roads.
Funily enough if they make 30 the standard accross most cities than e-bikes will probably be the biggest offenders when it comes to speeding
From what I hear when talking to people who drive in Middelburg, it comes down to wanting to be comfortable instead of cold. Almost everything and even nearby towns are within reasonable cycling distance. If those people decide to cycle instead of drive, it should be a significant reduction in cars on the roads where most people cycle.
I really don't understand how a 30km/h limit in built up areas would cause confusion. You remove all "30 zone" signs and put up "50" signs on main roads, after every intersection.
It's interesting how much of the UK has the look of "grey streets". Ugly asphalt roads that feel unsafe to cycle on.
👍👍👍
When it comes to speed limits, Sweden has them all:
30 km/h on domestic streets and outside schools.
40 km/h in roads surrounding domestic zones and some larger through traffic roads.
50 km/h as the base speed in built up areas.
60 km/h when 70 is too much and 50 is too slow.
70 km/h is the base speed outside built up areas, and in high traffic roads cutting through bult up areas.
90 km/h is the default speed for a paved rural road (more or less) in good shape.
80 km/h is the speed when the 90 km/h road is not maintaned properly or have lots of traffic and incidents.
100 km/h on 1/2 roads or 1/1 roads with a central division (typically cable barrier)
110 km/h and 120 km/h is for 2+2 dual carriage motor ways.
Of course, the local municipality can just set any speed limit really, so there are plenty of intersting things like slowing down from 80 or 90 to 60 or 70 when there is a road crossing. (all combinations are possible including 80-70 and 90-60).
Mostly is is just a mess to keep track of what the speed limit is, as any general rules like the ones I listed above are far from consistent.
0:25 where was that clip taken?
wow wow wow
One thing i really dislike about these streets is how uncomfortable they can be to cycle on.
Very great point! I live in a little village in the Netherlands, and despite having very little or no dedicated bike lanes, it's still very safe to cycle because the streets are very narrow cobblestones with lots of raised intersections, speed bumps, and bollards to deflect car traffic to only the main roads.
If you don't let cars use your neighborhood as a through way, then you don't need bike lanes! Only when there's higher speeds or lots of car traffic (which it should be attempted to not have at all)
I love cycling in the Netherlands. Germany should take an example.
The lowering of the speed to 30 kph and flow times of traffic through a city also has proven the main argument of many people that "lower speeds makes travel times longer and thus should be avoided" isn't true. The average speed while crossing through a city is about 26 kph as there is a lot of accelerating and slowing down in between traffic lights/intersections/roundabouts/etc.. A lower maximum speed, closer to the average is helping to maintain the flow, allowing more vehicles per kilometer street (shorter distance between vehicles possible and less harmonica effect due to stopping/accelerating traffic).
And the main arguments for lowering the speed are less accidents because of shorter stopping distances, less injuries because of lesser impact by lower speed, less pollution and lesser sound/vibrations due to the lower speed (which are mainly reported by citizen along these roads).
I was in Eindhoven recently and the new 30km/h speed limit on the main road that goes through the residential area was super weird. From the feel of the road you get the idea that it's a 50km/h road, but they just slapped the new lower speed limit on it and call it a day it seems.
I hope they take steps to make sure the road also naturally feels like a 30km/h road, otherwise I expect a lot of people to miss the speed limit.
At 3:13 when you mention cyclist-friendly designed speed bumps – is the gradual gradient of the bump what makes the one shown cyclist-friendly?
Amsterdam is a city where no native dutchman want to live anymore, using it as a example is not that smart.
I look forward to seeing how the 20mph speed limit in Wales pans out. Perhaps there's scope for the same in the rest of the UK.
These shared 30 kmhs roads are often fine for an experienced cyclist, but I'm not convinced they're always the best solution for all cyclists. E.g. in my hometown I know of at least 2 instances of a main cycle route that feeds into a cluster of elementary schools, and that on the way passes by a shopping centre. In both cases, those routes were originally built with seperated bike paths. And in both cases, those have now been replaced with mixed 30 kmh traffic. Meaning that the wobbly 8 year old biking to school by herself now has to mix in with the stream of SUVs going to the stores to buy a pack of milk. Naturally, many parents don't like that, and then decide to bring their 8 year school by car (in an SUV, of course). Which convinces even more parents that the route isn't safe to bike…
Our city in Drenthe had lots of these grey asphalt streets and upgraded them for… another grey asphalt in the same lay-out lol. Very car friendly. 🙂