After my upload on Thursday this week https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moxmCehP7dM and all the discussion about space I needed to do a follow-up.
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40 Comments
I would say after this deep dive the move was about as dangerous as the cyclist described, or at least he was justified in feeling in danger. The car was not gonna hit them I think, but 70 cm, while swerving towards you, is scary.
I've pretty much given up on people caring about the distance when passing rules, especially on faster roads. Too many drivers just want to get past and there is little I can do to stop them, so I just ensure I keep left to allow as much space as possible.
Re the parked car, it's a principle of emergency services advanced driving to try to classify parked cars as active – occupied, possibly lights and or indicators on, or visible exhaust – and inactive – no signs that it could be about to move off or a door opening. It's not an infallible system but gives drivers and riders an indication of potential hazards. If a vehicle is clearly inactive a close pass is not going to give rise to increased risk.
NICS should be on the case
Nice maths Ash, great job as always 😉
This is not a matter of persective, it's simple, it's too close! The car shouldn't have overtaken at this point. There was a parked car, the bike was overtaking it and there were cars in the other lane. As a learner (I can still remember), I would have been too nervous to overtake, but the instructor should have not allowed it.
Hi Ashley. Just wondering if you considered a comparison between this overtake and the one from your Riding In Rush Hour video from your cycling channel at the 24/25 minute mark? Or the one you reported in the “I reported This Close Pass” video? Or the police car from the Driving Fail February from last year? The crazy bird jumper test? The eleglide citycrosser test video? Or the reprimand in the Himiway Big Dog review?
No disrespect intended, I am definitely a better driver and cyclist because of your content, but it feel contradictory to have videos across your cycling and driving channel with you showing the same behaviour that you then criticise?
As a driver, I will always recall an incident about 10 years ago. I was relieved of my licence about 4 years ago due to health reasons. At the time I had only been driving for about 12/18 months and I recall an area near to my home at the time where traffic was diverted due to a landslide. I was passing a cyclist and thought I had given enough space but clearly heard a yell (although my windows were up). Although this was such a long time ago, and I'm no longer around to drive due to health reasons, this incident has never left me. Sometimes humans make mistakes. And the knowledge that these mistakes could potentially cause lives aren't lost. On that occasion we were both lucky and I'm sure we both learned a valuable lesson. Let's all take more time to think more clearly. Let's look out for each other. If I can recall a potential non-even 10 years later, imagine how much worse it would be if it were a real event.
Thanks for crunching the figures there. It does bring greater clarity on distances involved.
I'm amazed you had to go into this level of detail to quieten down the naysayers. The sad thing is they'll probably just say "nuh-uh" and continue disagreeing despite your evidence.
Riding in general is often more dangerous than it should be sadly.
I think that it is troubling that you say that this is not "dangerous". Not as dangerous as some other behaviour perhaps but more dangerous than waiting the 2 seconds for the cyclist to get past the parked car to where there was more room to pass. 1.5 metres is the yes, albeit arbitrary distance inside which the law deems passing to be dangerous. And this could have easily been seriously dangerous if something else unexpected had happened at that point, like the door on the parked car opening or a pedestrian, cat or dog suddenly emerging.
Not dangerous due to good fortune perhaps but unquestionably made more dangerous by the driver's and instructor's combined actions. I'm sure you'll agree it's certainly not behaviour we want to encourage.
Do cyclists have a responsibility to look after themselves? I seem to recall the cycling proficiency instructor saying you should.
Phone as big as a jaguar 🐆
I said this in the first video the driver instructor was at fault. He should have told the learner driver to hold back and wait for cyclist to over take the park car.
The left movement of the car starts at almost exactly the same time the cyclist moces left too. Imagine if the cyclist held a straight line for another second. There wouldn't ve an argument then – it would hsve been a collision, damaged car, damaged bike and likely some injuries.
Why would a professional driving instructor allow their student to pass while there's a parked car? Why did they not instruct on how to handle it?
70cm is wrong, the front wheel of the Yaris was running over the end of the yellow line. I would estimate 50cm at best.
Like you say Ashley, it was not dangerous. I have passed cyclists less than 1.5m. It all depends on the speed, the road, the traffic coming against and the cyclist
Metre
So to summarise 70cm space given, but not dangerous 😄😄😄😄
Wait, so cameras distort things and dont always show reality, OK. So lets use a mosaic make up of satellite images and aerial photographs sourced from different providers that have been manipulated and made to fit together to prove I'm right. LOL I'm done.
Ashley could you investigate the concept of cycle time trials held on 70mph dual carriageway? Where i am from this is a regular occurence with cyclists riding heads down oblivious to anything other than their time. They swerve round eachother into fast moving traffic and take 'racing line' round roundabouts and T junctions. Its only a matter of time before one of them becomes a 'warm bonnet mascot'.
As a cyclist, sometimes I'll just go on the path instead of round cars if there are cars close behind.
Statistically at some point if I kept going around the parked cars some idiot driver will squeeze through at the same time.
Camera distortion or not it's a bit dense to overtake a person who's overtaking a parked car. If the Jag doesn't look and opens the door the situation changes rapidly and some extra avoidance time could pay dividends.
I had a similar experience with an instructor (or rather their student) a while ago although the pass was closer. When I caught up at the traffic lights I said to the instructor she should not have instructed her student to squeeze through such a narrow gap. She said she gave me a metre (which she didn't) but even so, as we know, it should be a minimum of 1.5 m, greater if over 30mph. I said if she didn't no this she shouldn't be doing her job. Wish I'd filmed it.
A ridiculous overtake, that instructor needs a lesson or two by the look of it! Also, we use metres for measurement of distance not meters, cos we're not yanks 😉
Yup, snug and easily avoidable. But seemed to be a steady speed of less than 30 mph (I think) so no major risk
Ashley, I'm pretty sure that most of the criticism of your "analysis" was down to your inferred blame of the cyclist of taking their "eye off the road". Your comment regarding 1700mm vs 1.7 metres (note the correct spelling of metres) "if you struggle with that" is very passive aggressive!!! A bit pathetic and below you!
You paused for a still of the instructor holding the wheel at 2:58 but failed to comment on the mobile phone being mounted either at the edge of zone A or B, but most definitely within the ‘wiper swept area’ making it WRONG! [a missed chance to promote road safety].
Regulation 30 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 gives a full explanation.
Additionally the cyclist should have looked back before overtaking the parked vehicle, rather than a few forward glances mid manoeuvre, and would have been aware of the tyre if not engine noises of the vehicle wishing to overtake, and probably others.
That was a great explanation of perspective and maybe the instructor assumed that the cyclist would return to the left after overtaking the parked car instead of being 2 metres away from the curb 4 metres afterwards.
Either way I think it was at a slow enough speed, judged by the wobbling, and considering overtaking a parked vehicle, that I would’ve remembered Rule 168 and “slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass”.
I could easily stop safely to avoid any risk. My instructor, all those years ago, said that maritime rule 1 should be our prime directive “avoid a collision”; and yes Star Trek was on the telly back then.
My final thought is a reminder that the 1.5 metre cyclist overtake clearance is a MINIMUM at 30mph “and give them more space when overtaking at higher speeds”.
Imagine reporting a learner.
I honestly don't know how you can say that wasn't dangerous. The cyclist was in the door zone of the parked car. If the door opened then they had nowhere to go. If the Yaris had waited a couple of seconds then it would have been a mich safer pass.
I commented in the last video and specificaly assked for this. Thanks for the continued engagment. Having good arguments on the internet is hard. Can see you are doing your best here. Even with the trolls
Ashley, could you tell us how long you estimate that the cyclist was looking sideways at the car? I can't tell from watching your video. All I can see is a freeze frame of the cyclist looking over at the car. You have access to the original footage so I'm sure you won't mind enlightening us since, as you say, it's so important to be able to measure such things.
70cm as you’ve estimated is half the required distance and it was very nearly less if the instructor hadn’t pushed the wheel back in the opposite direction. I don’t understand how you could say this is not a dangerous pass.
At 0:10 you can see that the car wasn’t even the width of the ‘OP’ letters of the ‘BUS STOP’ markings away. It was obviously dangerous. They were operating a much larger and more dangerous vehicle than the cyclist – a car – and did not leave plenty of room, let alone anywhere near 1.5 metres. They also overtook where the road narrows. You should accept you were wrong Ashley and apologise for being dismissive and critical of the cyclist.
Hi Ashley, something I was wondering about your editing process:
Do you add lens correction to the example videos you use, given that lens distortion can obfuscate distance measurements?
Thats really not that close, there was easily 2 feet between the edge of the wing mirror and the cyclist. Also, why is the cyclist riding so far from the kerb before passing the parked car? If there is any fault here, in my opinion it is shared between the cyclist and thr driver.
I’m not sure anyone was disagreeing about the distances involved. They were disagreeing with the assessment that a pass as close as this wasn’t dangerous. To be clear, are you saying a pass that gets within 70cm at over 20mph speed isn’t dangerous? That seems like an odd stance.
My guess is that you judged this car a bit differently because you felt a bit defensive for the driving instructor. Which is fine but it’s a bit silly to double down and say that it isn’t dangerous while simultaneously proving the distances were very close. There are some viewers who will hear “not dangerous” as “fine to do” which I’m sure is not a message you want anyone to take from this video.
its a shame the instructor let that pass happen in the first instance.
I think the standard of driving instructors has really gone down. Just this morning I was cycling to work, a learner overtook me, it was probably less than 1.5 but more than 1m which tbh im used to expect here in London. Then as soon as they passed me, they slowed down and indicated left and started the turn across me, i stopped short of the turning and the learner stopped as well. I went up to the passenger window and said is this really what you teach them? Was an AA branded car as well, thought they might have higher standards. The instructor was very defensive and just waved at me to get on. For the record i would never blame the learner, i know what its like to learn, the fault is on the instructor here, you dont overtake a cyclist right before you are making a left hand turn, just wait behind for a second and turn in behind them.
It was a mistake and hopefully a learning experience for both learner and (hopefully) instructor
Im guessing half of the people commenting have never made a mistake in their lives then?