The Untold Story of World Champion Tom Simpson

Andy McGrath is known for his work in the cycling world, both as an author and a journalist. “Bird on the Wire” is a book by McGrath that delves into the life and career of Tommy Simpson, one of Britain’s most famous cyclists.
Simpson was a world champion and the first Briton to wear the yellow jersey in the Tour de France but tragically died during the 1967 Tour de France.

McGrath’s book offers a detailed exploration of Simpson’s career, his impact on the sport of cycling, and the circumstances surrounding his death, shedding light on both his achievements and the darker aspects of professional cycling during his era. His book, which was winner of the prestigious William Hill Sports Book of the Year Award has been praised for its thorough research and engaging narrative, contributing significantly to the historical understanding of cycling and today Anthony chats with Andy about his research on the book.

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Andy welcome to Roan podcast hiy good to be on here I’ve been looking forward to this one for a while yeah yeah um I really uh enjoyed the leemon part one and uh yeah really looking forward to chatting I was thinking about story ARs and you’re you’re a great Storyteller

Really gifted Storyteller in that kind of vent diagram of people who can tell a story and people cool stories to tell like I think you’re right in the center you have a cool story to tell and you can tell it super well and I was thinking about storytelling in general as the story

I mean like Superman such a great story but Superman scared Kryptonite and you know it brings him to his knees Superman without the Kryptonite is not a very good story it’s just a dude it’s basically paga it’s a dude who can win everything he touches it’s not a very

Good story Eric but that’s not what Tom Simpson is Tom Simpson is a very human character he’s very flawed I wonder is that why we all have such a connection to him because we see a little bit of ourselves in him I think there’s a lot of reasons why um

You know firstly I’m British I I’ve grown up in a British cycling Community where obviously I wasn’t alive when Tom Simpson was but you’re you’re told you learn when you get into the sport procycling that Tom Simpson was the first first you know great modern British road racer he was a Pioneer he

Was the one who who won these first Classics he he won San Romo he won Flanders bordo Perry the World Champ Champs War the tour to France you know yellow Jersey at at a time when you know just crossing the English Channel to the extremely eurocentric sport of cycling

As it was then was a huge Chasm like it was so different there was there was no road racing tradition really in the UK like even racing on the roads was a revolutionary controversial thing in in the 1950s so there’s that connection there you know there’s that like

Connection already from older people who are still alive who you know there’s a Tom Simpson Appreciation Society on Facebook and there’s there’s still stories there’s new photos there’s new stories there’s new fans like who are joining it but it it’s kept alive you know his daughter’s very prolific on

There and it’s a really nice thing because they’re they’re reliving a Greg spting Champion um and it feels like he’s still alive because you are getting these new stample then you have the Continental angle like they connect because he came over to Belgium and he lived in Gent for a long

Time you know he lived in in Britany for a little bit um and they grew to love him because he was a character and because he was a fantastic road racer too regardless of his nationality though he kind of played that up so there’s lots of reasons why I

I think it’s kind of wild how tribal we are because much in the same way that the French use an expression which how much time you spent out there theer it’s like the the sacrifice the hard work the dedication and as a part of that I

Always took when I raced in France it’s understanding that cycling culture and your cycling Heritage and by understanding that we can make you know better tactical decisions training decisions into the future but you know myself and yourself are only a couple of hundred miles apart separated by the RC

Yet your cultural Traditions around Tom Simpson and our cultural Traditions around like sheay Elliot they’re so so different why do you think it’s so important that we keep these stories alive that the new generation coming through understands how prolific writers like this were yeah yeah I think it’s really interesting

That you know I’m into lots of of different sports you know football tennis boxing Athletics but cycling is maybe the one that has the closest connection back through time this it’s more than Nostalgia like it’s something you can feel is tangible um and maybe that’s because what we call The

Monuments yeah it’s a fairly recent phrase but those top races firstly they’ve not really changed in terms of prestige for I don’t know 80 years uh 70 years like you know tour jro well to five monuments um so that’s really that is like the chain through time that

Doesn’t break um so Merks who wins you know tourers in 1969 compared to like Pacho winning it you know there is a comparison there like even the rout some of the roads were kind of similar but then you know bikes change kit changes blah blah blah they’re still doing you

Know it’s the it’s the same exhausting demanding pursuit of you know sacrifice that always has been maybe even more you know with sports science and nutrition and all the rest of it but even that hasn’t changed that much so that’s what I really like that I was actually

Talking to Vin Denon who was Tom Simpson’s teammate uh in the 60s I was talking to him a few months ago and firstly he’s a great Storyteller but secondly he can he still watches cycling he still respects what they do he’s still been guest of honor at the

Tour written so it’s kind of like we respect the forefathers and the for mothers that’s not really a word but for mothers who have been before us and they respect you know we hear M talking about Pacho they respect the new too that’s really nice is that I suppose respect is

A word even as fans we have that we compare can’t already compare a copy to patcha and you have to be really old to still be alive to remember both of them but there is a point of kind of comparison and respect is what I’m really that’s a word that links everyone through

Time how do you approach as a Storyteller a story like Tom Simpsons that has equal measures triumphant tragedy is that a challenge yeah it’s it it’s a bit of a challenge um also because you know when I was pitching bird on the wine nearly 10 years ago um there were they already

A few books out there like about Tom Simpson So firstly you don’t want to go over you want to go over you know you can’t change the achievements you want to focus on them but you don’t want to I didn’t want to kill him with my

Words he’s already dead he died 50 years ago there’s no point um attacking him you know um so I wanted to find new angles and you wanted to mix that I mean there is that Triumph and I thought with bird on the wire writing it I actually thought a lot

Of his achievements hadn’t been focused on in like enough depth you know for a lot of people even in the in the UK L alone on the continent especially France you know because he died on One V two in the’ 67 T of France he is known as you

Know the first big name cyclist to die related to doping and that has been like that is his story for many people but that’s that is just one part of the story like and it’s kind of unfair and that’s kind of covered everything for 50 years so I kind of

Wanted to bring it back to or hang on like he was a Trailblazer he raced with great panach great Charisma and he did so many new things and people loved him you know Rivals loved him let alone teammates friends family like he was larger than life so

So I I wanted to tell that life not just like the cycling life like there’s a few chapters where I talk about you know bordo Paris him winning ill lombardia but also you know driving at 100 miles an hour on mountain roads with his wife screaming at him to stop and then she’ll

Like divorce him you know if he doesn’t slow down and you know the jokes he would pull so you get both sides you know or all the sides the father the racing cyclist uh the champion the human being I’ve been debating this in another context I’ve been reading uh totally

Off-the-wall book about German philosophy and one of the philosophers in the book it was a card carrying Nazi during the second world war and so then even before you get into any of his philosophical teachings I suppose it poses this implicit question is everything that he says in a philosophical sense tainted by

The fact that he was a card carrying Nazi so to throw that one back to you is Tom Simpson as a legacy separable from Tom Simpson’s Legacy and his involvement in doping um so when you first started that question I I I was racking my brain

Thinking was Tom Simson Like A Nazi like trying to think of the Le like no he was too young for that I I was like did I miss something huge in the research there’s probably a book in that you know he’s a double agent double agent hey for me for lots of

Journalists there’s great stories about bleay I’m not sure if you’ve read Ro The Valor barlay carrying the documents the forge documents to get Jews out of Italy but that’s a story for another day it is a story for another day I I don’t want to be that guy but I’ve heard some I’ve

Read some revisionist things saying that it’s not quite how it appears but that really is don’t go there we won’t go there today but to answer your question absolutely separable also it was a very different time like and it isn’t condoning what happened but there weren’t and doing tests in the

Tour of France till I think it was 65 you know maybe 1960 was the first one you know doping as a thing that we know it now is one of the scourges of modern sport was not on the radar and Pa Champions were doping pretty freely we know that you know it wasn’t

On the radar isn’t it and because I my master is actually in doping in sport from a legal perspective and as a very small part of that I trace the origins of doping and like it goes back to the Gladiators used to dope in the Coliseum when they were fighting each other like

This has been around since time has been around hey Ro man excuse the short Interruption I love riding the bike but on account of being so busy with the podcast at the moment I’m now what’s called a time crunch Rider I never thought i’ see today but I have a tool

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M n t n and that’s going to get you 10% off your W bike that’s really interesting like I actually went down a kind of rabbit hole researching I think it was for the Tom Simpson book let alone so I I’ve done one on Frank Bron

Brook too but um reading all around the origins especially for Simpson like I I think we just come out as timing too we come out of of World War II where I think it’s true to say that you know uh Nazis um and the allies guys and the

Americans and made the Japanese you know in the W all using some kind of um performance and enhances to keep them alert or keep them awake or make them even uh kind of give them Force energy like um um like uppers and like downers stimulants I can’t quite remember what

They all were now but there’s it so so there that culture but there’s not that stigma like I remember Anthony Eden who was a British prime minister was using stimulants to keep him like alert like when the prime minister’s doing it you kind of think it story Kelly’s mechanic

Was dop and at one point as well Sean Kelly was working his mechanic so hard his mechanic was having to take like Belgium party mix or something equivalent to get to the races po Bel yeah well I there’s all these stories but like there wasn’t that

Stigma um it’s really it is a bizarre to think now but it’s also and I also think the way that we look at doping changes depending on the country where you’re in like this is kind of a this is a broad generalization but I find that sometimes Spanish and Italian

Riders get off a little bit easier from their public from their media than say British and like Dutch and more traditionally puritanical you know countries uh because I think have this attitude in the UK sometimes where we’re like oh this this couldn’t happen in our country you know British sports people

Wouldn’t dope and then when happened repeatedly I mean with many athletes over the years Dwayne Chambers um there’s this inflated sense of kind of shock but we should you know remove nationality from sport sometimes that that any person from any country in any sport can she and it it doesn’t

Matter how nice they are how charismatic how boring or unpleasant they are you know that’s just how it is but that’s a great point because if you think about Wiggins and fr to my knowledge I’ve never tested positive for anything but yet their legacy it’s weird using the

Word legacy for f when he’s still racing but is he still racing so he’s there has a jersey on but the legacy of those two guys seems so tainted by inhalers the chiffy bags all that stuff that went on its sky and I think if you ask someone

On the street who’s not super into cin they would maybe reference that even though neither of the guys ever tested positive and I think they five tur of France wins between them and then you look at valde who did dope was convicted of doping came back and was welcomed basically back as a

Hero yeah um Ian basso who I think actually kind of confessed more than most do and I think if I’m right to recall he helped out with information a little bit I just saw him at the weekend at strank here he’s in a team manager

Role you know which is fine you know he served his time but there isn’t that kind of so I I don’t think that Bradley Wiggins or or like Chris room have been blacklisted or have a dark cloud particularly over their names um but there is that that smoke you know no

Smoke kind of Without fire certainly the Wiggins and the Triumph syone and the Jiffy bag um I also think it it’s partly down to the way team Sky won and race the filters into it you know Pacha for comparison’s sake races in such an expressive and open way and just want K

With an ATK insane solo whereas we know how team Sky raced it was kind of like a lead out up a mountain with with the kind of what’s the word stereotype that they were staring at their stems looking at their power meters when in truth it

Isn’t as easy as that like and that didn’t help that stereotype in terms of the popularity of F and wigin and how they’re perceived now when you think about how much we’ve changed societally in the last you know 10 15 years never mind going back to when Tom Simpson made

That jump from the UK across the France like we don’t have we didn’t have the internet to pop a team a message and say hey can I come over and ride for you next season we didn’t have Google Maps to plan the journey you know Skys scanner to plan the flights like Greg

Lemon spoke to me on the podcast about one of his first experiences going to Europe and he flew out to Europe he had basically no money I think he’ like $18 or something in his pocket got to the airport someone was meant to pick him up

There’s no one there all he had was address of a village not a house a village on a piece of paper he assumed someone was going to pick him up no one picked him up he asked the taxi driver like how much to get to this Village

Taxi Driver was like $40 equivalent and he’s like I only have 18 eventually the taxi dver shum haglin agreed to take all his money to drop him to this Village and he didn’t know who he was looking for so he had to start knocking door too

To see if anyone knew about cycling or a cycl team and eventually he got pointed in the right direction and brought into a house and that was the start of his racing in Europe and that’s 80s so rewind that 20 plus years to when Tom Simpson’s getting started how hard was

That transition from racing in the UK to making it to France or do you H did you uncover documentation or stories about that era absolutely like it was even harder than it was for kind of Greg Leon like yeah the kids these days don’t know

How good they have it and you know how how EAS it two Boomers aren’t we talking about you don’t know how good you have it Lads to be fair like uh I think two summers ago I went on a campaign trip like with my girlfriend and we agreed we

Wouldn’t take any um any technology no phones no screens no laptop so I memorized a route I camping it was about like an hour and a half drive and you had to go through London and I really planned it out and you don’t even know

What time it is when you wake up we might have bought an alarm clock we didn’t get lost but I put this down more to luck than uh you know planning but it firstly it was really nice to be away from screens for you know two three days

But secondly yeah you just take it for granted the you know we look at our phones I think I was reading like seven hours like a day on average or something in America and like but anyway sorry to answer your question g off on tangent there to boast about my navigational

Skills um yeah like it was s did a lot of track racing heot Comal games I think in Australia when he was just up and coming and already the desire was there like kind of you could even see it in the way that he raced um it was kind of

Yeah almost visible that he was strong sometimes too strong and he burned himself out by um attacking too early or you know racing technically too hard you know crashing on certain corners but he had something and I think the only magazine they had here in in the UK was a monthly called

Kuru um and run by jock Wadley who was a legendary British uh slighting journalist so he’d been seeing that and he knew the only way to make it on the continent in this alien sport like Britany France Belgium Italy Spain you know the heartland of cying then might

As well have been Mars it was that distant like he knew that he had to go there so he got the boat over to Britany and like you say with Greg lond like you just wind up I think he had a connection you wind up in this Village

You don’t speak French you probably have a few Franks but really not many pennies to put together um actually I’m just recalling I think he he borderline dodged military service to go to Britany he kind of popped on the boat yeah to avoid getting you know caught up CU it

Would have wrecked his his dreams cycling career which is interesting like again kind of beyond our comprehension you know conscription I think it was 59 1960 15 years after World War II but you know still it was that generation who was still just about recovering from it

So he poed over to Britany and you know you’re racing you don’t know anyone you don’t speak French you’re staying with some some Breton Grandma you know like a living of French bread and there are combines it’s a mafia out there you know often then as it is sometimes now in

Kisses and by Mafia I kind of mean you have to know the right people you have to know the game you have to know the riders that have been doing it for years and you know this is their local Town they’re going to win today or they’re

Going to let you come third or win that Prime you know and so gradually he made it he made a bit of money but also was really about getting noticed by anyone you know and he was racing in some proam races and that’s where he kind of caught the attention of

A of a bigger team and his his career in Europe could really take off from there one of my understandings of him is that he was like quite an early showman that he appreciated the value of spectacle I don’t know if that was inbuilt just into his racing style as he

Say he was quite Punchy and energetic especially in the short races or if this is something he you know purposefully curated in the sense that we see you know modern athletes like Conor McGregor or half athlete half showman did you get a feeling for if that was his

Personality or if that was more uh kind of yeah like I say curat or t about that’s a good question like and I think we should think about this for modern sports people too that how much is kind of their real self and how much is a

Little bit of exaggeration to look good in front of the camera you know to potentially get even more fans or more like endorsements by being more charismatic but certainly Tom Simpson that was mainly him with a little bit of uh exaggeration or curation um because he knew that basically being the lone

Brit he wasn’t the lone Brit uh Brian Robinson was the first British cyclist to really make it as a fixture on the continent um the late Brian Robinson who I’ve had the pleasure of interviewing several times um he was following him firstly so Robinson told me stories of Tom

Simpson he would be working for him and he’d be like get on my wheel come on follow me and then he’d turn around and had fallen off on a on a corner um but these are all things that Simson could also use to his Advantage

Like he knew that he had to play up this britishness so at a certain point he started going around with a with a the bowler hat and an umbrella like the British gentleman because that was a stereotype of of Brits for for the French back in the 60s where Chris

Eubank got it from was it maybe yeah seems to work for him okay like it seems a little bit bizarre now but it was this Urbane gentleman Tom sson you know was perfectly well educated but he wasn’t you know like an upper class figure from London as a stereotyp have it he was

From the kind of kind Yorkshire border he lived in a mining town that’s also what he was getting away from you know from from a likely livelihood of working down the pit um but anyway um yeah kind of curated but he would always give quotes the journalists and

They started calling him Mr Tom or Major Tom um by this kind of like inflated large than live Army General and that was also the way that he raced you know it wasn’t like today like they didn’t wait till the podo or the final climb

Know 15K had to go to light it up you could go on all day breakaways and sometimes win the stage or even win the stage race like it it was less calculated and kind of more endearing in Homespun you only get away with that sort of swagger wearing top hats like if

You’re wearing a top hat and you’re coming in the gretto it just doesn’t work that in congruity just doesn’t sit well with the fans like he did have a decent palarz we shouldn’t forget that like the worlds in 65 Landers in 61 it h San Ramo year escapes me I think

There’s a Lombardy in there too obviously yellow in the tour was there a breakthrough ride there where you know you don’t fluke a race at that level was there a precursor to those results that said oh yeah like Tom could win the biggest races in the world or was there

An indication that that sort of talent was there I would say him winning Flanders in 61 was a surprise like already but I think 1960 P Bay he’ been up the road and he didn’t I think he taed about 50k to go um and he looked like he was

Going to win um and he had just been Pro not yeah not even been Pro for a whole year Pro 50k to go and Ru is a [ __ ] ambitious raid Jill bees the thing is like P Bay was quite different then like in the 60s they were really struggling to find cobal sectors

Um there were much fewer Cobo sectors I I think until very recently the average speed record for Ru came from in a race in the 60s because there were so few Cobalt sectors so that was a year that rub Bale almost lost um everything you

Know it lost what makes it it almost L what makes it special now but they uh they work to find new sectors like the like the aronberg forest only came in I think at the end of 60s like other ones and that’s an ordinary Bay we know now

From the 70s onwards but this don’t get me wrong had had cobbles um and you know still had miners you know who would be up from their shift on a Sunday you know watching these these road races come by and then you see Tom Simpson like and

Yeah in my book there’s some great photographs uh that we dug out from God knows where of him in the Breakaway going through these these Northern French towns and he he ran out of gas he didn’t quite make it but he’ shown himself he showed

Shown that he could do it he also won a race called the tour to sudes I think it was the year before that uh which had a fair few climbs that’s tour of the southeast I don’t know if they went up mon for Ron so those were the early

Things that showed that he deserved his contract with with San rafhael which is which was that team was the inspiration for the Brad Rafer that we know and you know being the good old days they were an apparative brand they were alcohol they were so whenever he was up

The road it was good advertising for you know what everyone would be drinking at 5:00 pm on the French Riviera you talked about them running out of gas in rub you know that’s an expression Club cyclists will use all the time or run out of gas now in the

Pro ranks we’ve moved to this you know high octane carbohydrate fuel of 120 140 50 grams of carbohydrates per hour do you have insight into what fueling was like for those sort of Ls is it a case that he actually did run out of gas he’s just glycogen depleted because of pure

Fueling or is it you know I’m just do for the day I’m cooked well can I swear on this forecast swear away basic as [ __ ] like like yeah the nutrition was I tell you to France like for example I believe that the rid all the Riders on the race were signed you know

Dormitories and really average hotels but they also had a feedback had given by the race kind of like Manion a pack lunch assigned to you you know by school and if you didn’t like The Moldy Peaches that would be in there too bad like if

You if you didn’t like the bit of bread or the cheese or whatever they had too bad you know so we were a long way from energy gels energy bars so nutrition wasent Al provided by the race organizer rather than the team or was that bu

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Join my wish today it’s available on iOS Mac OS Google play Apple TV or click on the link in the show notes to get started that was a to to France I’m not sure about some other races but I also know that in terms of refueling they would often stop at you

Know bars in Grands on the side of the road and they would you know they would put beers in their pocket you’d have domestics you know go back fit as many cold bottles in their pockets like down their backs and the race organizer will pay the bill later which sounds ridiculous but

They probably didn’t do that but anyway um and I have to go back through the Caravan you know they were minutes behind and they’d have you know Jac on Cil would have his his favorite you know bit of wine or maybe they fancy the kind of cold

Beer um and he would shout at domestique sometimes if they didn’t have a bottle open it or it was a wrong wrong kind of wine you know like which which is Inc hble Tom Simpson I think even had a on that faithful day that he died

Before going up M on two in the tour front 67 it was a sweltering day so hot and airless um I think he even had a nip of it might have been Brandy I can’t remember the spirit but he had that to kind of fortify himself for for was to

Come which it’s kind of sad in a way because that may have contributed to to his death considering what was in his system in terms of of drugs uh kind of sad that it was such basic nutrition like it probably wasn’t helping them it was hurting them dehydrating them not giving them energy

You know so dangerous and irresponsible looking back do we know what happened on as you say on that faithful day because Tom Simpson on Mon one 2 it’s one of the pivotal moments in cycling history has there been was there autopsies was there investigations in into the debt is there

A consensus now as to what actually happened um the cab is it it’s been a few years since I finished writing the book so I can’t recall every detail of this um but I know the that morning Simpson was I think he was on the end he was just

Inside the top 10 of the tour and he was really Racing for his future like he wanted to win the Tour to France but to be completely honest he probably never had it quite within him to do that he was a great one day racer he was a really good climber

But he wasn’t you know the best so he was overreaching anyway you could say with with HDs side um he wasn’t bad but he wasn’t number one um so he was pushing himself I think he’d already been ill a few days earlier in the race and and yeah you had this pivotal stage

Up finishing up I think was it finishing on two or was it going down the side not sure but anyway yeah I’m not sure big climb huge one of the toughest in the tour France as we know um and yeah he wasn’t having the best day he took some

Water from Finn from Finn Denson his teammate you know at the foot of the climb and Vin shouted at him die die which means come on go for it in Italian um and years later decades later thenon feels bad about that because of what eventually happened you know he he did

Die you know in English um basic basic Simpson got further and further up the climb and he dropped behind the leaders and he was weaving on his bike um I think he got to it then tragically about 1,500 meters from the summit so close and he killed over a few times and

You know the the mechanics in the car behind him they they tried to put him back on the bike obviously he was in toe Clips so sometimes he was just falling into the road you know these W two times and that final time with 1.5 K to

Go he was basically like Delirious like unconscious and that’s when they realized you know they had a problem and uh and a helicopter was called you know landed on the scree of this Luna Escape there is more one too and they took him to the nearest hospital and they

Couldn’t save him know sadly um but also that’s where I believe the race doctor or one of the doctors found found a box of um apetamin in his jersey pocket I can’t recall whether there was an autopsy done um the family may not have wanted it but

I might be confusing it with my other book Frank Vanden Brook but anyway like the important thing is how it was reported by the media because that has guided us you know for the years and years afterwards and broadly speaking that is that it that it was a doping rated death

Uh we know that because of the stereotype the stigma attached to Tom Simpson and this was this was like from this is such big news it’s hard to convey like this was a JFK moonlanding moment you know millions of people in France were listening to the radio when

This happened they were following it like that like the ABNB host who I had at the weekend who’s French told me he remembered Tom Simpson he remembered that moment like it sticks in their memory this sporting tragedy you know because to France athletes now as then are super superheroes they’re not meant

To to pass out let alone die no like everyone should come home from every sporting event from every Bike Race So it truly was a tragedy for him to be to die in his prime how do you think his legacy has influenced the sport of cycling good question um there were lots

Of things he he wanted to do you know he liked the idea of kind of running a like a team like a GB Academy 30 years before it actually happened so he could you know give the education to Young up andc comers that he never had he didn’t

Have that privilege which you know is a lovely like idea of this old older charismatic Tom Simpson like with his arm out the window of the car you know giving advice to the future generation that could have been his legacy um his legacy was a slight tightening up of anti-doping

Controls in the tour to France because everyone realized the organizers too that something was a miss here that there was a kind of pretty endemic use of stimulants in cycling at that time and they needed to crack down on it and um unfortunately it it didn’t really

Crack down it didn’t really stop you know it had the effect of riders feeling harassed you know refusing sometimes to do do antidoping tests um and for it to go underground to become more secretive and the tests were pretty pretty rudimentary and pretty rare back then like it’s not like modern

Antidoping but even now you know the budgets of anti doping federations compared to some sports some sporting teams who might who might have so much more to gain their budget is is so small that they might always be behind the cheaters I often wonder if you you

Transposed a rider from that era into the modern era like how would they stack up and you hear this debate all the time in every po you know oh Pelle was playing for Manchester United now how many goals the season he would get and that’s you know an impossibility to

Figure out question like if Pelle was playing for Manchester United but I spoke with the author of barl Burton’s book that came out last year and they actually tried to answer the question of how good barl Burton would be if she raced right now so they got her old bike

They even had a I think a 3D printed mannequin oh no they got a girl with her exact same dimensions put her on the bike in the exact same kit put her into the wind tunnel and they tried to estimate the difference in power between

Barl Borton and then if you put her onto modern equipment so if you put barl Borton onto you know your latest specialized SLA Arrow optimize like a middle of the road Pro how fast would she be and they actually tried to answer that question where do you Tom think Tom

Simpson would stack up that’s fantastic like that is as probably as close as you can scientifically come nowadays to actually comparing you know apples to oranges which is comparing you know copy to mer to injur rain to paga um that’s brilliant and and it’s more measurable

For her maybe because she did so many time trials um Tom Simpson how did he stack up you know up against Vander Paul paga I think he’d be he’d be up there he would be more probably more charismatic than the vast majority of of the modern

Pilon and most of them were um seemingly you know also they were more together as a like Yan yansen who’s might be the oldest living to the France winner the Dutchman he was telling me stories how know it was war it it was brutal they hated each other on the bike sometimes

But they would be drinking drinking beers after the race and you know singing songs and he loved Tom Simpson I’m not sure you’d get that camaraderie that you had because there was this the torant and every other big bike race was smaller the world was smaller the

Cycling world and more insul you don’t get that nowadays you know people uh there’s no social media back then like there’s no projection of a certain image and there’s no no there were some planes you know but only for the very best um so we already stuck up

For Tom Simpson I think he’d have a decent chance at winning a monument still um like lombardia yeah um I think he he was impetuous in his racing style then like he would sometimes go too early and that could be a problem uh because he might not be strong enough to

To always hold off yander Paul’s your pagat these kind of people but I’m just trying to think about because I remember writing the book and who did I kind of compare him to like in my mind um maybe someone a bit like Dan Martin but yeah someone really really tough um consistent

Likable um God I would it is a great Pub Pub debate like just imagine your fantasy cycling team through the decades you know how how they compare um some we definitely have um everyone laughing afterwards even during the race you know he’d be a fan favorite maybe maybe Yen V

Meets Dan Martin it’s that kind of thing yeah if that makes sense when someone finishes your book and they’re speaking to me down the P they’re down the P they’re chatting their mates and they’re like I just finished Andy’s book about Tom Simpson what enduring impression do you hope

That book leaves on people I I hope that it makes him see the totality of you know Tom Simpson you know the whole picture so I think they said in the intro to the book that what happened on MAR 2 his death of course

It’s a huge part of his life but it kind of grew over everything else like Ivy over a old house and obscured this beautiful old house uh and there’s so many nice rooms in this house and there’s so many nice things if see my kind of labored um comparison that we’re

Really missing the rest of you know Tom Simpson in the Main Street um and I was quite fortunate I was very lucky this book won this is my first book and it won the William Hill sports book of the year prize which I never dreamed of

Happening but I like to think that that helped to get Tom Simpson’s name and the book and his story out there much further um this is this was quite a small project with Rafa at the start of the time they were doing their books and

It’s but it’s a mix of photos and in uh kind of in-depth storytelling um and those photographs like cycling in in life in 1960s man it’s so much cooler than it is now like all the suits and the following cars like you just wish what’s up free love Yeah free love are

They like things were changing so much like when you look at the of the decade Simpson was in from the time he turned Pro to his death like went from like Gagarin going into space the first man to practically walking on the moon you know to the Vietnam War we went from

Like almost World War II memories to like color TV and I I try to capture that too like it was a crazy decade also for cycling because Simpson started out with onail being the man on till pulidor and they were friends too to Eddie MKS coming along being his

Teammate and Tom Simpson did a number on him in in parin 67 he won parin Simpson but he kind of put this young Belgian this uh cannibal to be in his place and kind of showed him look I’m the leader you’re going to work for me and kind of

Worked him over um obviously no one could keep Ms down for long and we know that he’s the greatest but um yeah everything changed dramatically in that era Andy I’ve love this conversation thanks for your diligent research and your time on Illuminating one of the great historical figures in

Our sport a pleasure it’s so much fun to talk about you know and explore the Ang go and now I’m going to go away and really think about you know my fantasy cycling team eight Riders from uh cycling history who would you have oh you know obviously I’m G to have

That Irish bias like yeah you’re your roach obviously in 87 is you know borderline Untouchable in cycling history Kelly just indomitable for almost a decade so as the Irish boy I definitely have to have the two of them in there I think I I would have Kev dis for

The Sprints for sure uh as my British bias um else would I have boan that’s just my my teenage teenage self speaking but like M could he race and he looked good on the bike and are we talking dopen bands or no dopen bands can we put

Armstrong as our GC man in there hey there’s no rules like uh we set the rules we set the rules it’s fantasy you know it’s fantasy um if you want him in your team go for it Greg lemon I think we’d have to have him maybe in both our teams so manage that

Dynamic though can you put Armstrong and leamon in the same team you got manage the dressing room they’re going to argue there’s there could be eight egos in this team so you got to pick carefully yeah head of Minefield isn’t it they could end up just bickering and coming ninth yeah cuz

I just can’t see lamon Armstrong Kelly and roach lead now Cavendish it seems an improbable leader train no I I can see uh someone having a bid on thrown at them like in said you know in Anger like um but it would be fun H but yeah thank

You it’s been a fantastic conversation really appreciate it thanks very much Andy so if you like this video you should definitely check out this video cuz I know you’re going to love it and don’t forget to subscribe to the channel