Justin and Rob tackle the most controversial topics in herpetoculture. The co-hosts or guests take one side of the issue and try to hold their own in a no-holds-barred contest of intellect. Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!
In this episode, Justin and Chuck tackle the topic of Obligation to Education with Rob Christian Who will win? You decide. Reptile Fight Club!
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Reptile Fight Club
Episode 107
March 7, 2024
★ Episode details: https://share.transistor.fm/s/8e1e7564
★ Additional episodes: https://www.moreliapythonradio.net/
All right welcome to another episode of reptile fight club with me as always is uh e Bob Rock Rob man I’m good good good you survived your class three kill storm don’t make that three yeah it was uh it was pretty good I I woke up to what maybe six to8 Ines
On the ground and I went and you know snow blowed it out and then after I got done with you know the distal area I came back and there was another inch or two where I just plowed so yeah it came down pretty good it was it was nice it’s
Been kind of a mild winter but uh we survived yeah I went up snowboarding with my daughter to you know hopefully catch some nice powder and we get up there and you know we’re riding the lift up and I hear people coming down like oh that sounds icy that’s not good and so
We start going down yeah it’s it’s pretty icy um where it’s groomed and then where it’s not groomed it’s about two feet of slush you know like and it was not the powder I was uh hoping for and I got stuck and had to Turtle my way
Out for a good 45 minutes yeah yeah for for an old guy I uh worked up quite the sweat and did did did another run and we said okay I think that that’ll do us for tonight let’s get out of here so yeah good times though is it hitting you now
Or you guys getting snow we’re supposed to get some snow rain today we’ve had it it’s been weird it’s uh only been snowing on Sat Friday nights into Saturdays for like the last month so for whatever reason but uh yeah we’ve gotten it doesn’t seem like this one will be
Very much but like I don’t know about you but yeah the last yeah three Saturdays or three three of four Saturdays or something like that it’s been probably about what you’re describing or lower you know between 3 to 6 8 Ines something like that every Saturday so yeah we’ve had a few good
Snowstorms but it’s rained a lot too so I don’t think there’s much snow on the ground right now I mean they’re on like the the driveways and roads it’s pretty clear but yeah they’re still a little bit on the the grass my dog freaking running away from me I’m chasing him
Chasing him around the trying to catch him and he’s a slippery little bugger he’s a little little uh um french bulldog and man he’s he’s just an escape artist I can’t catch the dang thing and I’m just chasing around get back here Omer come on H he is like a Homer Simpson
Yeah good times that’s pretty good well we we are joined tonight by our good friend Rob Christian how you doing man hey I’m doing pretty good just uh hanging out in the room and I’m really excited to be on I do listen to every episode so I’m excited to be on right on
Yeah we’re glad to to have you on I uh messaged you a while back but uh you don’t you don’t do uh messenger so you never got my message saying hey man come on the show so yeah I I wanted to go on since you guys
Started I just love listening to all the episodes but yeah I don’t use Facebook Messenger I don’t even really use the Facebook tap I I log on and do it through the web browser like an old person right on yeah it’s probably smart but yeah so yeah either way glad to get
Glad to finally get you on but just just know you were in the in the the list a long time ago so yeah I’m honored yeah now when was that uh trip you did to Utah uh that we were on together oh boy that was 2021 yeah 2021 I think cuz that’s the
Same year that I moved to North Carolina yeah yeah yeah that was cool so that’s the first time we met in person but yeah yes I’m still you you got my wife to handle a wild tarantula tarantula that was a feat man she that’s the one thing
She was just never comfortable with her big spiders and then I look over and Rob’s like helping her hold one I’m like what what is going on here yeah pretty pretty awesome so that was cool something about the way that I talk about animals gets to people like that I
Can’t tell you how many people who I’ve done programs for who are like I’ve been afraid of snakes my whole life and then you know 30 minutes later they’re holding a corn snake or a ball python they’re like I just what I I wasted my whole life these things are awesome yeah
Yeah you were you have you have the touch man for sure uh just make people feel comtable I mean you’re just a personable guy you know they just trust you and know hey if Rob’s doing this it’s good to go so yeah maybe most of the
Time I know that when we were out there in Utah I saw one of the um the sun spiders the camel spiders and I was like oh soul fuge I could pick that up and I like went right over to it and the thing like grabbed me real quick and I was
Like can’t can’t do that I guess I’d forgot I didn’t know that was it up up on that Hillside yeah yeah and I was I was a ways away from people because I was going to like scoop it up and bring it over to you guys but it was Trucking and yeah
They’re fast made a mistake I made a mistake yeah uh Bobby Pebbles has also hiked that Hillside that’s where we found the spa and um we found a liar snake on there the when last year when Rob and Eric and bunch of guys came out it was yeah Dustin I’m very jealous yeah
Did I forget somebody um anyway who did you say you said Eric you Eric Dustin Nipper Nipper can’t forget Nipper yep so yeah good times but yeah that that trip that you guys came out for I I was I find I’ve forgiven Chris with the hila incident you guys you guys
Found two hilas walking yes and uh and I was driving down we were about a half hour away and I said hey where are you guys I’ll I’ll drive right to where you are and meet you and I probably could have seen those heas but yeah Chris did not respond to my
Message and I should have known to text Aspen but you know so we’re in the hard way but we found two last year so I for I was gonna say you guys found two last year so made up for it yep all is All Is
Forgiven but yeah but it was a lot of fun herping with you guys for sure I I kind of invited myself on that one cuz I heard Keith was coming over and I’m like oh Keith MC pe’s coming okay well hey would it be all right if I head down
Around the same time Chris is like I guess and then that was because the original uh trip was planned for like 2018 or some sometime earlier and then Keith couldn’t make it and I’m like do you guys care if I still come down because I had taken work off and I was
All ready to come and they’re like sure so I went out with Chris and Aspen we found a that same heila so this the we found it this last year that was the third time because you guys found it so right I was going to say one of the yeah
The first one was a repeat for the third time that you’ve seen it right yeah it’s a neat looking one yeah he’s got got doesn’t seem too worse for wear at this point mhm he is I mean he looks a little older but yeah he’s still still trucking
So yeah he he looked a little skinny the first well ah he looked okay yeah but he has a kind of key pattern on his head and neck so yeah we’re like hey this is this is key so that’s a great great place I I
Love herping St George it’s a lot of fun so yep well um seems like you’ve uh done done quite a bit of herping since you moved to you’re in South Carolina North Carolina North Carolina okay one of the Carol yeah I mean the weather here is
Great uh the last year well when I moved down here I was like man I heard that you can HP you around here so I’m going to do that and so when I first moved here I was like my goal is to just find at least one snake every month and
There’s only been one month since I moved down here that I haven’t done that wow um but last year every month we found a snake I found my January snake so far this year I’m still working on my February one and I’m running out of time it’s very frustrating but weather’s
Supposed to be decent this weekend so I’m going to try and get out there but yeah I love I her was what I was able to do first because I wasn’t allowed to keep snakes when I was a kid and so uh I’ve always had a deep need to just see
Snakes out in the wild and so when I came out here and I was like oh man there’s way more variety of species you can see lizards here because coming from Massachusetts there’s no lizards there’s like you know you see two Snake species most of the time it’s like garter snakes
And water snakes and that’s about it unless you like hit very you know specific areas and so I just my job has me outside a lot so when I’m doing Pest Control inspections for people’s homes I’m like I got to check under this board real quick I got to look under your down
Spouts real quick I got a there’s a log over there I’m checking for termites let me just roll this real quick and so I get a lot of herping done coincidentally on the clock and and uh I’m doing inspections for people but I see a lot
Of snakes while I’m doing it so yeah that’s cool that’s it yeah you got to got to make it make do where you can right if I got to be out there anyway way yeah yeah why not that’s cool so uh how’s the herping Community out there are you just mainly
Solo or do you find have you found some some fellow herpers out there uh I know a few people kind of local to me who who are herpers um Trace Harden is close by we have gone out once but we haven’t gone out again he’s super he’s super
Busy all the time and I always hate bothering him but he’s awesome I’ve known him for over a decade he’s awesome his buddy uh Thomas uh TCR herps on Instagram he is an incredible herper like he is light years ahead of me when it comes to all the stuff out here cuz
He’s just he’s in the area and he’s driving he’s better at Road cruising and all that stuff so he sees so many amazing things I’m jealous and that’s cool he’s uh put me to like general areas for a couple spots and and so he’s just like awesome but most of the time I
Honestly just go by myself and um or go with my partner Kristen and just like you know trck around do a little hike look in these areas try and find where things kind of end up and I find that it’s easier for me to just go out on my
Own and you know figure things out yeah that’s awesome when you can herp with your partner as well that’s that’s pretty cool yeah hav’t she loves the salamander so as long as there’s some salamander thing going on there she’s down yeah she wouldn’t enjoy Utah much
We got got a whole whole one species out here and she likes the other stuff too but yeah her heart is with the salamanders yeah yeah yeah gotta have your favorites right so what’s what’s the what’s the coolest thing you found out there so far uh coolest thing that I’ve found um
In North Carolina I went to uh Emerald Isle which is on the coast and there’s a park out there called the croan and it’s a really really big Park and we found found a uh Eastern chain King out there and the thing was on death’s door it was like all bunged up
It was in shed the thing was you know malnourished but I was that’s the first time I found a a wild king snake you know east coast and I was just like over the moon just super hyped we we it was kind of cold out we had Road cruise for
Like two hours didn’t see a thing and we got out we’re watching the sunset we’re like ah man this is such a bummer and I’m just like it looks like they be a snake right here and then I see the tail end of it going down into some roots of
Grass and I like grabbed it and I was like I’m not letting go I’m not it’s coming back out one way or the other that’s awesome so that I think that was the coolest thing I found but then I’ve also found um anerythristic worm snakes which is pretty cool I’ve seen two or
Three of them since I’ve been here cuz they’re usually like a dark brown black color on top and then they usually have a red stomach and I found two or three three of them that are all white bellied and they’re not in shed they like just shed crisp M white bellies so that’s
That was pretty cool oh that’s cool yeah worm snakes I I don’t know if I’ve seen any wor worm snakes in I think we saw one in Jersey did we is that what that was yeah yeah we did see that heck of a thing to try and take a picture of yeah
Yeah they’re terrible they’re like you know this big and barely tell that it’s a snake we thought we had a a a solid background for it and so we put you know the cup over it and we’re waiting for it to settle down and we lift up the cup and everybody’s ready to
Take a picture and it’s not there we’re like we’re like sifting through oh there was it burrowed right down into it it was pretty pretty good escape artist there yeah that’s funny it was like solid surface but there was a leaf litter pile on top and so yeah it was
Like okay it’ll be safe and it was but it was just below a half inch of leaf litter on the rock or whatever but yeah yeah it was pretty they are tough to get a photo of I I’ll give you that yeah the the I’m I’m guess I’m thinking blind snakes I’ve
Seen bunch of yeah those guys i’ in Australia yeah they’re they smell horrible they they don’t stop moving we had one on like a tin sheet and it was just like a treadmill it was just sitting there with you know trying to go somewhere and it was going nowhere but
It was moving the whole time was pretty funny but yeah there although you’re small Cal King uh was like that too and uh drove me insane for about 45 minutes they would not stop moving can’t lie that was that was kind of entertaining to watch but yeah it
Can yeah young young snakes and snake certain species are just yeah almost impossible to photograph you need some like ice or something to cool down cool them down settle down yeah or be happy with fortunately the the I think the picture I’m most happy with because of their
Pattern is one where actually that movement is happening but it actually just sort of blurs out and looks super cool but you get the you can still tell the functionality of it so yeah yeah yeah that’s awesome that’s cool um yeah I don’t know you’re you’re still keeping uh herps you got your
Scrubs and some some other stuff that those going well your Project’s doing well yeah yeah I mean I’ve bred scrubs twice now since I’ve moved down here um I bred Janet my uh Prada line barck the year that I moved down here so 2022 and then last year I bred a wild caugh
Female barck to the wild caught male that I’ve got and so I produced the the one clutch 2022 one clutch 2023 um this year I’ve already got them kind of together and I’ve seen one lock but usually the females don’t start cycling for me until April May is when
They like start to go into their cycle so I’m not really looking at anything right now as as like definitive until we get closer to May June is when we start getting towards seeing where eggs are going so very cool yeah corn snakes and bloods and short
Tails and yeah I got a bunch stuff nice Branch that’s cool yeah the the uh there was a lot of excitement around your bar necks are they still still people still pretty excited for those and yeah yeah I mean there’s I think that there was
Only few people in the US at BR barck Last year me and Steven Kush I think and then the year before I think the same thing and then Steven produced the Highland scrubs last year and there was another person who produced Highlands last year as well uh there’s there’s a
Lot of Buzz around the barx uh people love them I think that once people see the highlands more I think that they’ll get more attention because they’re just as pretty as the class ofp is in my opinion it’s just people don’t know what they are you know yeah yeah that’s how I
I guess I’ve always found that struggle with the carpets as well like people know carpet python but they don’t know the different subspecies species that you know in the complex so it’s probably the same for the scrub people too you know people have heard of a scrub python
But they don’t know there’s all these different species and yeah yeah there are different species okay like yeah exactly and there’s probably more to be described yeah properly uh separated out and stuff I know there’s the the two in Australia um the kind of the ones up in
The northern cape and then more towards cans down the the bottom of the cape but I haven’t seen the northern ones yet just the the southern ones around cans we’ve seen handful of those but that’s I was going to ask if you didn’t see any
Up north huh not in Iron Range no we didn’t see no just just in the table lands so just and they’re more of a lavender faded yeah yeah they’re really pretty kind of Honey colored really nice looking um my buddy Steve has some over in South Australia we were just at his
House on the last you in October when I went over and um yeah they’re beautiful snakes those just really kind of I don’t know iridescent tones and you know the the honey color I took a I’ll have to send you guys a picture I took took a
Couple pictures of his captives out in the sunlight and stuff but yeah they’re just beautiful snakes hell yeah yeah and you know with with everything with uh you know New Guinea and kind of that you know everything in the northern Cape is pretty much the same as in Southern New
Guinea so you it’ll be interesting to see how that shakes out if they’ll be aligned with some of those Southern you know Aro types or not but if they uh if they do group that into the same species then a lot of people are about to have some illegal snakes because
Even when there when there’s whenever they put in big snakes they always put in King orni even though they’re know there’s generally not in the US they’re on a bunch of States as banned even though you know they’re not here so if they group them with that it’s like
Southerns are one of the most common scrubs that are bred in the US so yeah well and you know I think that that that dividing line will will exclude I think King horai will still be a thing and we yeah we still won’t have any of those
But kind of that Northern Cape species I don’t know how will relate to the sou stuff yeah so yeah the the kingor are south of that that biogeographical barrier I think as far as I know I I could be talking out my butt for sure so
Yeah if I haven’t kept up with the I don’t know for some reason my interest kind of wanes as you leave Australia and enter New Guinea I mean I’m fascinated by them they’re cool I’d love to see them in the wild but Australia is kind of where my heart and attent attention
Stays so I don’t know I feel like the opposite I’m like I love all the stuff from Southeast Asia and then as you get to Australia I’m like oh those are cool but it’s like it doesn’t hold me as much as the stuff from Southeast Asia I don’t
Know why yeah it’s I guess I I guess I’ve always just had that fascination with Australian reptiles and it’s just always stuck so yeah to each their own if we all like the same thing it’d be pretty boring world really boring really really boring and I I I mean I love all
The reptiles I’m fascinated and you know love to learn about them and there’s probably a 100 different species I’d like to keep but you know you kind of have to focus and unless you want to be moving projects every other year or something but no yeah done
That yeah well um why don’t you kind of tell tell everybody where you fit into herp culture maybe a little background and and uh then we’ll get to fighting okay yeah I’m down uh so my name is Rob Christian originally I’m from New England and I have uh been a lifelong
Reptile person when I was a kid you know before I could talk I was picking up snakes in my yard and from that point on that’s the only thing I cared about one 100% you know and uh so I spent a lot of time out my yard herping my dad is not
From the US he’s um from the Caribbean and is just terrified of snake so that’s like his worst nightmare is having a son who’s like only cares about snakes um but so you know I wasn’t allowed to keep snakes when I was a kid I had my mom had
Tarantulas when I was little so I grew up with tarantulas then we got like frogs and lizards and eventually I ended up getting some snakes down the road and that’s when like everything just like kind of exploded uh my mother and I opened up an educational business where
We did programs uh at schools birthday parties summer camps we did that for seven or eight years we did the Boston Public Library System two or three times where we were doing like three shows a day for hundreds and hundreds of kids yeah how old were you at the time uh
That I think that was closer towards the end so I was probably like 20 years old when that when that happened we started it when I was like in elementary school or Elementary Middle School yeah so uh we did it from when I was like 12 years
Old or so up until I was 21 and then uh she went to Arizona to to do work out there and so I was like uh in school and working at the time so we shut the business down then uh I went to Maine to manage a reptile store when that store
Closed I went to uh nerd and was doing sales and education and social media at New England reptile Distributors I was there for five years and then I moved to North Carolina and so uh yeah that’s like the you know the little graph of where I’ve been and everything so uh yeah I
Mean I’ve always had a love for snakes and arachnids and you know creepy crawlies and all that stuff so I yeah that’s in a nutshell yeah very cool yeah it’s I guess it seems um kind of the the opposite of a lot of people where they
Start out you know liking rep but then they keep them and then that gets them into herping you know but rather you started out kind of more herping and I guess maybe we all kind of herped a bit little toads and stuff in your yard it’s
Like I I doing programs I would get a lot of kids who are like oh I just I like catching things in my yard and you know that’s a lot of people’s first little taste of it and then Society gets to you and says no put those things down
They’re gross blah blah blah leave them alone put them in the yard like don’t touch them and a lot of people just grow out of that and they’re pushed out of that yeah and uh then there’s some people like us who uh not quite you know
Like no I’m going to catch that to I’m going to jump in that pond and grab that Turtle you know exactly yeah yeah I I I think a lot of a lot of dudes kind of leave reptiles in pursuit of women you know they they get to that age where
They’re like uh these are blocking me from you know getting girlfriends or whatever so I I’ll come back to them later or something but yeah I was I was never one to let that deter me but I remember one time we were we were on a date and we were hiking up this
Waterfall Canyon and uh and we found a rattlesnake just right on the trail there and it and it wasn’t rattling or anything like it looked like it had had you know broken rattles may maybe gone through some and I mean this was a very popular hiking spot so I’m like yeah I’m
GNA have to take this one home I’m like I asked my date I’m like can I borrow your sweater sweatshirt she had like a sweatshirt tied around her waist and she’s like um what are you going to do it I’m like you don’t want to know so
I I tied it Off made a little makeshift snake bag out of sweatshirt and put it in there and you know brought it home and kept it for a few years until I found out it was illegal and gave it away to to somebody
But uh yeah that was uh I uh always had snakes when when I had uh my girlfriends they’d come over and you see the snakes or whatever but yep yeah that’s always just never been an option for me like this the snakes are me I am the snakes
And I there’s no separating the two I can’t a tough time thinking about things that are not snakes like when I was in elementary school and learning vocabulary words I had to make them about reptiles even if they weren’t about reptiles to the point where like
My teachers wrote home to my parents and they were like we understand that Robert likes reptiles but like he’s got to write about something else he has to understand that there’s things outside of snakes and I just my brain couldn’t do it I was like I don’t
Know uh for my my Elementary uh read you know summer reading thing they you know you do the reading challenge or whatever um my dad brought home a herpetology textbook thinking it would slow me down or something he said I read the whole thing and I had like all my my pets
Mapped out taxonomically and you know all the all these I was using all this terminology he like what are you even talking about I did the same one book you know for the summer reading everybody’s getting like hundred books or something yeah my parents did the
Same thing they were like looking at all the age appropriate books and like Robert’s already reading like complex books about reptiles can he just write about that because these other books are like not at the same level and the teachers were like I guess so that’s
What I wrote my book reports on was all the different field guides and you know books about uh you know care and captive keeping and stuff yeah I still remember the the elementary school library had uh one of cofield’s books I think it was Keeper in the kept um but I do remember
Checking that out quite a few times and you know copying some of the figures and things like that yeah that kind of stuff yeah good stuff yep I think I think a lot of us have that in common where we just have that drive and nothing’s going
To dissuade us yeah cool well um I I’m I guess your your background kind of leads us into to the topic too with your you know your education and you know we’re we’re um Rob came up with this topic uh about you know are we obliged to educate
The public Rob uh Stone yeah Rob S and so he invited see Bobby Pebbles yeah the best nickname ever thank you Schmitty yeah the rock Bob Rock Bob rock is a good one still yeah that’s a little tougher than Bobby Pebbles but Bobby Pebbles makes me laugh so anyway yeah um
Rob Stone came up with the the idea to talk about about you know whether we’re obliged to educate and how much education is helpful and you know those those that kind of idea so we’re going to fight about that today so what better than than Rob C to discuss that so um so
Rob and I will go ahead Rob S and I will go ahead and flip the coin to see who who gets to fight you and then we’ll go from there so go ahead and call it Bob Rock heads it is heads wow won the coin
To good job what uh what would you like to do I want to hear what you have to say though so there you go you get to fight anyway okay I think yeah sounds good to me all right uh now Rob C let’s have you call the the next flip here
Which was not a great flip but uh I’m going to go with Tails it is Tails so I’m a double loser today the robs have it let’s go got it Rob power just Rob Square yeah I’m used to ustin power with Dustin gron but yeah all right so uh which side would you
Like to defend are you more pro-education in your social media or um it’s not really necessary what do you think honestly I could go either way on this one I think think that I should argue the side that it doesn’t always have to be educational because I think that that’s going to be
More challenging for me all right I like it I like it that’s that’s what the show is about seeing both sides right so yes sir okay and then as the winner the big winner of the coin flip you get to decide if you go first or if you want me to lead us
Out um how about this I’ll I’ll I’ll do I’ll do you an honor and I I’ll go first oh wow it’s a little bit harder I think most the most the guests find it harder to go first and I think that uh I’ll take that on all right you got it man
Okay all right perfect so it’s it’s very fitting that we’re talking about this um this topic on today which is hold on I got look at it the date February 22nd which is Steve Irwin’s birthday oh whoa yeah crazy and so we’re talking about education and whether or not
Education always or about uh communication with the public and whether our content always has to be educational and there is like so much that uh Steve Rowan has done for Education uh for reptiles in general you know most people I I would venture to say before Steve would have said that
You know crocodiles kill them get rid of them alligators any of they’re big nasty D they’re mindless killing Ma Mach get rid of them they’re like this close to being jawed you know where everyone just hates them and and can’t stand them and uh Steve had a way of you know educating
And and getting people interested in that sort of thing and uh one of the things that I learned through doing education with the public is that the average person does not understand the things that we understand they have a very very very minimal understanding of the creatures that inhabit the world
Around them and for a lot of people uh you know if you start saying the Latin name or uh talking about the natural habits right off the bat on things you just lose people they’re not interested because it it’s not something that they can relate to in their life you know
Most people don’t talk anything Latin period in any portion of their life you know yeah yeah and so uh one of the things that I look at when it comes to uh Outreach and the content that we post is that we need to be able to reach
People because if you don’t reach people then there’s uh no like you can have the most information on the planet on a certain species but if you can’t communicate that if you can’t get people interested in that then it just goes to waste it’s just gone you know yeah and
So on Steve Irwin’s birthday well you know I think that is very fitting because people look at him very fly in the past but if he were to come out today I feel like he would not be looked on as kindly with how he handles some of
The uh you know snakes venomous snakes he was you know free handling things very regularly taking lots of liberties with with uh you know highly toxic snakes and uh that’s something that you know I’m I feel like I’m someone who looks fairly critically on those things as well especially with the people
Nowadays and how they portray their content um but you can’t deny that it gets people people interested it gets the average person who knows nothing about snakes to look and they might be looking just to see if this guy dies or not but yeah they’re looking and and uh
In the current uh social media economy that we’re in attention is everything and if you can Harbor attention uh you can get a message across and so I I’ll I’ll pause there I’ll let you have a rebuttal cuz I I will I will keep topping on that yeah no
I I think that’s a good way to start it out and and and I agree but I I think um it’s hard for somebody like Steve Irwin or like yourself with with so much passion and excitement about things I think that’s almost a form of Education
In in and of itself right if if somebody sees okay this guy loves these things you know there must be something interesting or special about them I’m going to I’m going to check that out you know I’m going to I’m going to Lear learn more about that you know so it’s
Really hard to to kind of draw the line between you know education um in in so many different forms I guess so maybe it’s cheating a little bit to say that but I think you know that passion you know kind of educates people in a in a
Way you know and and I think you’re right I mean most people could care less about a scientific name or or the the fact that there’s more than one type of carpet python or scrub python you know and so and you know that’s I don’t know
I guess uh I I think you know there is that uh danger danger danger in the words of Steve Ruan to to make things more about entertainment than education you know and I I guess maybe it’s it’s my own fault because I was always drawn to programs that are you know education
Oriented like I I did enjoy Steve Irwin because he was showing Australian animals Australian reptiles which is my huge passion and I’d be a little less excited when he was in Africa or somewhere else you know I’m like I mean it’s still cool but and I still like
Those but you know my my main draw was because he was Finding Australian reptiles but the the thing that kind of turned me off a little was how everything was overhyped you know everything was so dangerous or you know the thing that got me was when they were
Driving on a road and he’s like we could flip the vehicle at any moment and I’m like okay okay enough with the over dramatization you know I I guess I you know so but um one of the shows I really liked was uh Harry Butler I don’t know
If you ever saw into the wild with Harry Butler um it’s kind of an old school one and I remember seeing it like as a kid well maybe a a late teenager but he was doing shows back in the 80s and maybe even I mean they they look old today so
I bought the box set off of Amazon and it’s it’s pretty sweet but he’s like an old school naturalist you know he’s got his Australian hat on and he’d throw his hat over a tiger snake and like pick up the tiger snake in his hat and then he’d
Work it out and pin it you know and so he could show and he’s like no drama at all it’s like this is a tiger snake look how beautiful he is look at those fangs you know see the Venom dripping or whatever just like no drama no no uh you
Know frantic flailing around and catching things and stuff but you know he could he could catch stuff with the best of them for sure but he was always really calm and like laidback and I I guess I really enjoyed that and I guess I’ve always been kind of drawn to
Educational things because I have that thirst to learn but I I do appreciate that most people could care less and I think if you can get them interested in something they’ll they’ll learn you know oh at least this is not a dangerous thing or this is not something to be
Scared of or whatever you know and and when yeah so I guess it’s hard to to not educate people when you’re passionate about something in in some way so maybe that’s a little bit of a cheat but I’m gonna go that way over to you yeah no that that makes
A lot of sense and um you know there are always going to be people who are drawn to that more educational content and when you uh look at how the internet is set up nowadays where you know any who’s got a phone can start making content about whatever they’re interested in you
Get all these different venues for people who are interested in those different things and if you look at people like uh Clint’s reptiles he is like educational he is you know cut and dry yeah he’s a very educational guy um and he does get a a a good amount of
Attention right because he is educating people and he is um you know there is always going to be those people who seek out that kind of content but if you take a look at the type of reach that he’s getting and then you take a look at the
Reach from people who are going whoa and you know jumping and doing this and doing you know over uh you know being overly dramatic when it comes to those things the reach difference is huge and when you look at even things like um like you know we’re
Talking about like the Steve Irwin show um you know the Crocodile Hunter they would put those you know the snake hissing over the you know the snake’s not actually hissing but when it like whips real quick they’ll throw a hiss in over it because it grabs your attention
And and and and gets you locked in on that moment where you know where he’s holding it he’s just going okay it’s dodging you know dipping he’s doing what he’s he’s you know what he does yeah but producers editors the people behind the scenes are going okay you know the
Average person’s going to get bored if they just see him you know tail it real quick and and throw you know put it out there and just stand in front of it and talk for a second yeah uh you know we have to think about because like when I
Think about things I look at things like all of this through the lens of uh people who are trying to make content to reach other people uh they’re not trying to reach me because I’m going to go out and I’m going to seek out the information if it’s in a book in a
Library I’m going to go find it right because I want that information they want the attention of the person who’s casually going by and they’re going oh I don’t really know anything about snakes let me take a look at this for a minute and uh people who are strictly
Educational are not going to get that like you know you might get some people who trickle that in here and there but the people who uh you know get the view and the attention are the people who are you know putting in that or a rattlesnake when it’s actually a CO
That’s on the screen or you know the the putting a cabur in the forest in Africa it’s all that sort of stuff and uh you know I I interviewed for a show that they were trying to put together for the History Channel uh where they’re going
To send guys out to find the deadliest everything you know we’re GNA send you to Africa we’re gonna send you to Australia blah blah blah blah and you know the questions that they’re asking me in those things is like how crazy are you going to go when you get
You know out there when you see what do you consider yourself a risk taker would you pick it up even if it has the potential to bite you and me as a person I’m not like that and so I was that’s why you know didn’t end up going any
Further than the second interview but I was like I’m not going to go crazy I will make it interesting but I’m not a super risk-taking person I can make it interesting even if I am not touching the animal I have got that where I can just like get a little bit of people’s
Attention but that’s not what they’re looking for they are they’re in a production team they want stuff that’s going to grab people’s attention they want to see someone get wrapped up by a giant snake they want to pitch some guy getting eaten by an anaconda you know
Yeah and think about the number of people that tuned into that even though nothing happened uh you know the the amount of people I had family members who you know have never touched a snake in their life who reached out hey did you hear the guy that was going
To get eaten by the Anaconda and then I you know roll my eyes and I’m going no and then you know listen interviews of him afterwards and he’s like well they said it was going to be an educational program I signed a contract and then they told me that I’m
Going to get eaten alive and they said if I dip out now that I’m going to get sued and I’m never going to work in the industry again so you know uh all of these different things are going into the background of the bigger production content that the average person sees and
All of that starts with grabbing attention and and and you know uh not with the education and there are people who are good at doing both the educ education and uh grabbing the attention uh one of the people I think it was like Savannah over at Gatorland she is a
Super energetic person really gets you in there but she knows so much about crocodilians and I really admire that about her and and there’s not a lot of people that can bridge the gap like that you know either people can be really educational and really Reckless and and
Whatever or they could be really educational and it’s not a lot of people that can bridge the gap to make it you know educational in both yeah and uh so I think I I’ll I’ll pass the Baton on to you for that one sounds good yeah I I
Guess um I would probably cite uh uh planet Earth as probably one of the Hallmark things that educated people and got them also excited because you know honestly like I I love Steve Irwin and I love all his contributions but I did not like that dramatization and the the hype
And all that kind of stuff that came with it and and not you know Steve was fine but everybody that came after that trying to replicate that and trying to seeing that as a as a mechanism for Success you know you’ve got to be overdramatic and crazy and jumping and
Grabbing and things like that and then you get people like Austin Stevens was just kind of almost comical how you know they’ve got the camera set up so it’s like you know you can rotate him and you know and as he’s jumping on a cobra in the lake or something just kind of
Ridiculous but I I mean honestly I still watched him because he’s still chasing reptiles in the wild and I thought it was cool but um so you know uh compared to like maybe Marco Shay where you might not even see the animal he’s tracking down because it was the real deal you
Know like uh yeah so this is interesting right because a week ago we found out that season one which is the the original 13 episodes of O’s big adventure right which I’m sure we had seen at the time I remember it B all of
It sort of hit that way but uh at least in the US you can buy it for not that much to to view it on Amazon Prime I think in the UK it’s actually free but uh you know such it is but uh so I’ve done that I’m halfway through it at this
Point and the funny thing is the drama doesn’t occur at which maybe actually makes sense if you listen to Mark enough or met him but uh all the drama that happens in his show is his interpersonal relationships and her conflict with other people the SC the local scientist
Whose toes he’s stepping on or who where he his approach or his methodology they don’t like so when he’s in Brazil and they’re looking for the bushmaster it’s oh well they want to be able to grab it first or they’re not going to keep going on the Expedition with them or you know
That you know whatever it oh they’re uncomfortable with how he’s interacting with the animal I mean heck you know it’s a real Pine Baron Street there Justin but um you know that that sort of thing so yeah it’s super interesting that the drama in those shows because to
Your point right there’s um his PR key principle was that there would be no staged animals there are some captive animals that are presented as being captive particularly before they would find something but that was kind of the the the key effort of the Endeavor and
In fact the one I just watched on Splendid leaf frogs um you know they fail to find they could hear it calling they fail to find it they come back to where they had initially been looking and the guy has a pair in a bucket that
Then go to the Manchester Zoo but it was sort of a a half it was honestly presented it wasn’t that he had found them it was oh the the sort of the uh additional conflict of oh you went to this other place didn’t find you know
You heard a calling but didn’t locate it when it started raining all this stuff you come back and well here they are in a bucket but it wasn’t oh look they’re just behind the Henda here yeah um but at the same time there’s a ton of interpersonal conflict with like oh Mark
Is aggravating the local scientist who don’t feel like he’s properly respecting them yeah right I guess he you know you’re gonna find entertainment and and I think maybe planet Earth did that by just showing the the dynamic lives of these animals and you know I maybe I mean honestly a lot of reptiles
Are kind of boring they’ll just like an ambush Predator they’re just going to sit there for you know you’re going to get some cool footage if you catch that you know 20 seconds of excitement and drama when they strike it prey and maybe hit it or something and you know and and
Like you know showing the rattlesnakes uh sitting in Ambush waiting for uh rodent to pass by and and filming that was pretty amazing and I mean the uh the Galapagos iguana sequence is some of the best Wildlife documentary footage I’ve ever seen and that just had had my jaw
On the floor as you know an adult like I’d seen lots of lots of Nature Documentaries and that was the first just just jaw-dropping amazing footage you know and it I didn’t even you know you didn’t even really care what the the species were but you got educated as
What was going on with those animals you know and so I do think that there is a way to educate and still entertain because these animals are fascinating you know they they do so many interesting behaviors and there’s a guy in India um that’s a photographer and I I can’t remember his
Name I feel bad I probably should have thought about him but he just came into my mind as being somebody who you know puts out on social media and and he shows their natural behaviors and you’re just watching like wow that is cool it’s these uh Indian some sort of Indian
Lizard but they’ve got these big daps and they flare them out you know bright blue or something and they’re like jumping and he’s got a couple males fighting you know on video and stuff and it’s really really pretty cool stuff so um I I I I’ve always been the opinion
Like let the animals do the talking like I try to just film nature happening and then you know showing it you know on a YouTube video and granted you know I’ve got hundreds of views or something whereas you know uh Chandler getting bit by a cobra probably has millions of
Views you know that kind of thing so people like drama but also for the most part people are kind of stupid and they probably need more education rather than entertainment you know we’re constantly entertaining ourselves rather than learning something so I apologize if uh you if if the listener falls into that
Category but hopefully not hopefully you’re H sort that listens to this podcast yeah self- selecting for higher brow you know if you’re listening to our voices right now you yeah you’re probably not a part of that group but but I I also like uh I I know a guy that
Was kind of behind the scenes with that uh Venom show that b did where he was in Australia looking for venomous snakes to milk to sell the Venom or whatever and and that almost had the opposite effect I think people realize that’s not how things are done and just it was just too
Much of a false premise and and set up and it just didn’t I think because of that it didn’t take off and my friend said he had all the proper gear cuz some of his animals were the animals that he found in the wild you know and so they
Were definitely planted and staged and things for him to come upon now they did find a few wild things and that was kind of the objective but they Al always had something in reserve for to find yeah a big you know giant pet snake that was just crawling across you know in broad
Daylight kind of thing and uh for for Brian to jump on but uh he said he had like the giant uh hoop hoop uh bags to for snake captures that make it very safe and you know and and the producers were like no no no give him a give him a
Like a little pillow something pillowcase yeah that they’ll barely fit in and I mean you can see him struggling just to just to tie it off you know once he gets the snake inside of it it’s like and my friends like that’s kind of dangerous for no reason like nobody you
Know I guess there’s drama in trying to get a giant venomous snake into a you know small pillowcase but like what really that’s what we’re that’s what we’ve we’ve become you know this is where our society is leading you know just entertainment just for entertainment sake and frankly I mean I
Think it’s just contributing to the dumbing of America but I don’t know that’s uh that’s kind of the reason I think we need educational content at least to some extent and you’re right I mean maybe for the most for the masses you know throwing scientific names out
There or or just showing the animals doing what they do is not enough to grab their attention but hopefully you know I hear a lot of people that are pretty deep into herp culture talk about how Steve Irwin brought him in you know that was the one that’s the person who made
The difference so for every slack jaw Yoko out there like that’s like oh wow he got bit you know that kind looking for the drama that way there’s hopefully more that are saying wow those animals are fascinating and Steve Irwin’s a hero and a legend you
Know he brought me into the Hobby and you know that’s kind of you know what what I hope is the the outcome but you know you see see things like turtl man and those kind of just stupid shows but yeah as a quick interjection that I
Think Rob will appreciate so this is a story from 22 years ago I got a there was a really nice like three and half foot wild blood python with a beautiful stripe like a trist stripe look to it that uh I had seen on a from a West
Coast vendor that must have just got it from cam you know just that sort of a mix in it was not something they would usually have right um but your story about with Brian and the the tiny bags is uh so as I say 3 and 1/2 foot and I
Got a 9 by9 by9 box and it was in a bag in a 9 by9 by9 box Oh Come it had come on a snow you know a day with snow and um thankfully there wasn’t a heap obviously filled the entire MK to that box there no heat pack
Or anything like that so it was a cold uh cold day with snow and um I pulled it out so it just all sort of unfurled you know open the bag and the whole thing you know Jack the Snak spring snakes yeah and so I was holding it like this
And you can feel it’s cold but you see the little eye TW you know I see the eye twitch and I pull my head to the side and the head goes over the shoulder and I was like this is an experience that I won’t for you know 22 years later I
Haven’t forgotten so yeah certainly something but you know in terms of what you can put into what size bag end or box if I guess if you have [Laughter] patience I have had to put some things in some bags that were very risky not venomous stuff but other things and uh
Let me tell you I wish there was some security camera footage of it because oh my goodness you ever try to get a Croc monitor into a pillowcase to ship it man ouch yeah a man no no you trim the claws and you put them in and then they just and
Just like like it’s nothing they still just go right through I’ll tell you you never want to get the call from FedEx right well that I think Chris Foley oh this was an Owen story from 2011 or whatever that uh they had bought uh both a Croc Monitor and a
White lip or something like that and uh yeah they wound up with a box a bloody box with a Croc monitor in it they shipped together yeah two different two different bags but that didn’t do much that doesn’t matter yeah that doesn’t no that’s terrible yeah man well what uh
To uh to to that point of like uh uh you know think if you had had that on camera that Miss right there you could have had 10 million views on YouTube you know that equates to roughly like $30,000 off of a silly video of a blood python I’m just
Saying all jokes aside uh I think that for for a lot of people uh the foot in the door is yahoos and people who just grab your attention and they go wow that Cobra is insane and then they uh they go I don’t really know anything about
Cobras and then they like look a little bit deeper into things and they go oh wow there’s so much more information out there than just the thing that grabbed my attention initially than just seeing someone getting wrapped up by a big reticulated python more than watching somebody lose their finger to a cobra
Bite there is all of this other stuff and you know the the thing that got in the door is not necessarily the thing that they identify with their whole way through uh the Hobby and and uh the industry and their Journey with reptiles uh it was just the thing that kind of
Set that Domino to fall to get people in and um one of the things that I’ve seen a lot with uh kids who I have met through um doing educational programs or being at nerd and giving tours and things like that is that you get some uh kids who are
Like oh man I love this guy cuz he just like picks up cobras and blah blah blah blah blah um but for every child you get like that uh I would get like five or 10 that would come in and just be like oh Emily from snake Discovery is the
Coolest person I I’ve ever heard of she’s just she just has really cool animals she gives you lots of information and I’ll just sit there and just watch her all day and so uh that educational portion will will get some people in the door and then uh the you
Know the average person or or the person who may not might not have been interested otherwise gets caught by the other person you know and and that’s one of the things that I bring up when people talk about uh Steve Irwin is like uh yeah he freeh handled things he uh
You know took a lot of liberties with animals that I wouldn’t be comfortable doing that with um but the amount of reach that he got from those sort of things uh people didn’t just say Okay Steve Irwin is the only thing I’m going to know about crocodiles or about you
Know any of the number of things that he was uh showcasing a lot of people went on to learn more about those things and they still appreciated him for the Ed uh the entertainment value of things uh but they learn much more than that as opposed to if they never was exposed to
That or they were just exposed to a documentary it might not have piqu their interest to learn more about things and I did a talk for the New England herb Society man it had been I don’t know 10 years ago now or something eight 10 something like that and one of the
Things I was telling people is that you know I have cultivated my life my social media my relationships everything for me is centered around reptiles and so people who know me know about reptiles by force they they don’t have an option they’re going to learn things one way or or the
Other because that’s all I talk about that’s all I post about that’s you know that is where my mind is at 24/7 and you know the people who are on my friends list or the people who follow me are interested in that MH but there are millions of homes in the country
That have a pet leopard Geo who have a pet bearded dragon who you know that’s just like their little pet their kid got interested in it they did a little bit of research they got one um and one of the things I was saying at that meeting
Is that people need to share that with other people because the people who see my stuff are know what they’re going to get but if your neighbor from a you know in your neighborhood group posts up a picture of their bearded dragon that is going to trigger questions and that will
Get more people involved and and get more people interested and it doesn’t have to be educational you could say this is my buddy Spike he’s a bearded dragon you know and and let me tell you when would do educational programs um you know I could bring out I don’t know uh something really
Cool I could bring out a speles right uh speles Pilates these tiger rat snakes big beautiful awesome slow tongue flicks puffed out throat I’m like this thing is so cool they come from South America you know they climb all in the trees you look at the shape of their body they’re
So cool people like oh okay okay I bring out an albino Rosie booa hey this is an albino Rosie boo it name is mac and cheese boom every single person in that room fell in love they know what mac and cheese is they like the name of that
Animal they are now invested in that animal and I didn’t teach him anything about it you know afterwards I’ll go through and teach him about it but to get that attention to get people in the door they need to have something that they can relate to them because I think
For a lot of people the the uh the educational aspect of things is they can’t relate to it you know if they watch um a you know someone going out and grabbing a taipan you know outside of Australia you know they just there’s no frame of reference for them they’re
Going okay he’s saying the snake is deadly maybe it is deadly maybe it isn’t deadly most people don’t know you know you could grab a brown snake and tell them it’s a Tai Pan and they’re not going to know they they they have no idea but you know when I would bring out
A u a turtle and tell people that his name is Michelangelo and he’s a mut Ninja Turtle every person in there goes oh Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles I am invested in whatever else you have to say right now it doesn’t matter what I have to say but they’re there and
They’re um invested and that’s when you can get to to the education portion of it and you don’t even have to go crazy with it you know most people don’t know that a turtle shell is part of their body I can’t tell you how many people
Who I would bring a turtle out and I’d say hey look I I would usually bring a a specimen of a you know carrus so you can see the inside of it say look at this this is the inside of a real turtle showell and you can see the spine and
The ribs it’s just like you you’ve got all those same things too and they go oh I had no I thought that it was just like a hermit crab where they just came right out of their shell you know people have no frame of reference yeah and so
Getting them in the door getting getting something that they can relate to something that they can hold on to engages them and then they can educate later and they a lot of times they will sometimes they won’t you know if you look at the 10 million views on a cobra
Bite video not every one of those people is going to go out and educate them educate themselves about antivenom and neurotoxic Venom and you know all these different things that are very interesting to us um but they will watch that and maybe learn a little bit of
Something uh about snakes on the way and so I think that that education really really we need to find ways as people who are passionate about these animals we need to find ways to get uh connection with the average person because they have no frame of reference
I can’t even tell you the amount of people who would see a python and they’re like is that a snake or like you bring out Blu ton skink and they’re like that’s a snake and you’re like no it’s got legs look at the little legs oh yeah
It does kind of have legs on there I had no idea you know they’re they’re like what kind of creature is that I don’t know because they just have no idea they have no frame of reference and that’s where theed the um entertainment portion comes in because uh entertainers people
Who are truly good at entertaining make it relatable for the people who are watching it and that gets way more people to come in and to be interested than just strictly being educational and that’s one of the things that I had a really tough time learning because when
I was just starting out doing educational programs I’d be like this is a Solomon Island Gro a Kendo a Pauli these come from you know over here and they get this big and they eat primarily and my mom would tell me all the time please dumb it down dumb it down dumb it
Down dumb it down stop no Latin names give it a name talk to the people and you know that’s one of the things I had to learn really young was make it relatable and once you can do that that is what will get you over all the other
Hurdles of all the other things that are going on people can be afraid people can be apprehensive people can have like you know all of these things going on but if you can entertain them a little bit and you can make it relatable to them you can actually get to that portion where
You can educate people yeah that’s that’s a great point I mean I it’s it’s it’s hard to be scared of a snake named macaroni and cheese you know you can’t you can’t I’m just saying I’ve won over so many old women with that one I’m just
Saying yeah they say it’s mac and cheese or or more recently Palmetto corn snake Funfetti boom everyone sold Funfetti cake I love Funfetti cake I’m touching that snake I want to take one home today yeah yeah that’s uh and and I I do you know I I fully appreciate that we need
To have that you know um what’s the word the the the excitement that passion that uh you know just the entertainment side of things but uh you know we we also I think you know there needs to be a balance there needs to be the the you know the more
Nerdy Source or that more nerdy place to go and uh yeah the the one will get them in the door and I think there’s definitely a place for for that for sure I mean that’s you’ve got to entertain the masses and and hopefully it’s in like like Stever when it’s in the the
Mind of you know let’s let’s conserve these and let’s let’s appreciate them and let’s you know respect them for what they are and not just you know kill them because we’re scared of them that kind of thing and I think that’s what he did very well is he made people aware of
Them and showed them that you could interact with them without getting killed and without you know whatever um although he eventually got killed by something in along that line which is you know kind of the the downside of that but um you know he gave his life
For his passion and and that excitement um now the you know the I think at least some of us need to be putting out that high highly educational content so once they get their foot in the door they have somewhere to go you know so and and
That’s kind of you know the reason that i’ I I I like to write books you know that I I I appreciate YouTube videos and you know a website or something like that but they kind of come and go and and you know it’s it’s kind of fleeting
And and sometimes it’s hard to find some of that content and and uh so but a book you know that’s a physical thing you can buy it off Amazon you know and you have it on your shelf and you know where it is for the most part you unless you loan
It to somebody and they keep it but um so so as long as you know people like us when we were kids and we were fat you know wanting to read herbology textbooks or whatever you know we we had somewhere to go for that information and I think
That’s kind of the danger of of where you know the entertainment side makes a lot more money it’s a lot more fun it’s a lot easier you know you don’t have to put much work or effort into it you just pull out a snake and say hey look at
This you know look at what I got but you know in some some respects you’re kind of like that weird dude walking down the street with a snake around your neck you know and no shirt on or something like getting for shot always a BM why is it
Always a Burmese python why is it always a burmes python yeah and and I mean I was I was that kid I I grew out of it but I was that kid that had burmer on my neck walking in the you know our our little towns parade on the fourth of July or
Whatever so you know we we we uh but but I do think there is that responsibility to have you know some educational content even if you’re you know mostly entertainment you’re still throwing in tidbits of of of Education right you got to have some aspect to that or what’s
The point you know for just wowing them with with exciting flashy snakes but um so you know I I always try to have like you said you you’ve got to know your audience and and you know with when my kids were in in elementary school I
Would come and do snake shows but just for their classes right so I would only come if my kid was in their class and I’ve had teachers approach me I’m like sorry I just don’t have time unless it’s going to you know my kids are going to
Be there and help me out and I get to see them and and they get a kind of share this passion with me kind of thing um but yeah we we uh we just have a few factoids or whatever about you know snakes or in general and you know I love
Pulling out a pygmy python hey you know is it possible that I’m holding in my one hand a a python you know this is a is this is a full grown you know this is as big as they get python so not all pythons are huge you know that want to
Eat your dog or something so you know have some that they could learn and take away from that so but so there’s there should be should be something educational in there and hopefully uh many sources of of that kind of uber nerdy place because that’s where I like to
Go one of the things uh I’ll I’ll touch on real quickly is the um do you use Wayback machine yeah yeah okay I was like that’s that’s the yeah it’s it doesn’t get everything but it gets a lot of good stuff uh yeah if you’re listening to this Wayback machine just
Saves it’s an internet archive and it just saves websites um throughout time and you can see a lot of really cool stuff on there you can go back and look at old I I go on there and look at the old nerd website back in the day where I
Remember going on there and seeing a bumblebee ball python for $25,000 and you know yeah all this crazy Croc monitors for 200 bucks and all this you know crazy stuff um but one thing it doesn’t great sometimes is pictures but I tell you what Robin I know you’ll know
This animal the tri strip blood python on the fin Financial Times the pink newspaper so that was how I wound up starting to talk to Cara um was I had seen that you know when it was live or whatever and uh I think she had just
Gotten up there and um Kevin was like I absolutely don’t want to talk to some blood python nerd here you go yeah that sounds about right yeah unfortunately it already been sold but uh yeah that that one you can still see on there was uh was the Genesis for that
For sure damn that’s awesome yeah there man there that’s it’s fun to go see some of that old content I think you can even get some of the old uh like Forum uh posts and you know discussion if it was yeah if it was like visible through without having to log in
Yeah a lot of those are are still so I think like b.net you can you can still see some of their old forms you didn’t have to L to see their forms a lot of nerd stuff I think was behind a login so I don’t remember whether or not you can
See some of that stuff but yeah yeah cool cool tool for sure yeah and some I mean I still remember some of those uh website like python Pete’s website like I was on there all the time you know he kind of was uh the inspiration for my
Own podcast or my own website having like the what’s new page and stuff CU I always want to see what was happening and what was new and stuff so I love the pattern wallpaper from the animals that he had on yeah I remember this is like just a
Little aside because now we’re getting off top about uh back before I kept snakes I was like just enamored with blood pythons and like VPI was like the ones who had blood python stuff and so we didn’t have any internet at my house but my mom worked at a hospital and so
She had access to internet so I was like can you go to VPI you know I go to their website and she printed out their pages about blood python and I taped them up on my wall and it had like the strip of patterning down the side of the web page
And I was just like read that back and forth 150 times and yeah in love with that yeah I think VPI is a great example of you know kind of bringing that uh um educational aspect you know to the Forefront and being you know really kind of I mean scientists and and learning
More and studying snakes and things and kind of bringing that higher level of education and I think you know PE and and everybody kind of looked up to them you know like oh they’re they’re kind of up here on that upper echelon I want to be like the barkers someday that kind of
Thing and you know we need those instead of just a guy who CHS out a bunch of baby ball pythons you know we you know the we need some kind of Heroes that have that educational standard that know stuff and that are excited and passionate about it and that’s kind of a
Rare mix I think in in herp culture because that’s usually reserved for you know a university or a scientist or something so and they don’t have a ton of interaction generally with you know the herbic cultural uh population which is kind of who we’re we’re talking to or
Who probably listen to this more so but um I don’t know I’m trying to think if we still have those you know the hopefully we can kind of be that for for the Next Generation or you know get them excited about learning about these things and seeing them in in the natural
Environment and uh that’s kind of like I guess my goal in in posting videos or content is try to say okay you know these are the things you can find out there these are the things that are waiting out there for you to to discover and and see cool behavior and things
Like that so I don’t know that’s I I think uh obviously I I really enjoy education I think education is very important and the things that we don’t know probably far outweigh the things we do know about reptiles in general you know especially when thinking about
Reptiles in the wild and what they do dayto day you know we have a very limited understanding and knowledge and I think if everybody put kind of that effort towards Discovery or or have that kind of research minded attitude about chasing snakes in the wild maybe it’d be
Less of like a checklist and more of kind of like a observation you know getting out in your backyard and just kind of watching things and maybe making uh you know citizen herp herper uh citizen scientist type observations that could potentially be published you know I don’t know that’s kind of my dream
That’s my goal as a retiree just to sit around and watch rattlesnakes or something uh would love to do that I feel I don’t know I feel like I’m not smart enough to publish a paper so I’m always just like when I think about like people who publish papers I’m like they
Know things I’m just out here looking at lizards man come on like well that’s that’s where you’re wrong I think you know if you can make an observation or see something unique or find a pattern or things like that I mean granted there is kind of a structure and a and a I
Guess a way of doing things in the scientific literature but you know team team up with a a scient team up with a herbologist and and write the paper together there’s there’s lots of interest in those kind of things especially if you’re out there Gathering data and spending them your time and
Money without them having to put in a dime they’re going to be very happy to publish something you know if you if you make some Discovery so maybe maybe maybe well I’m gonna I’m gonna take it back to the argument just for a second yeah go for it how many
People are reading those papers and how many people are seeing the YouTube videos I’m just saying I’m just I’m just I mean it’s a fair point for sure and I think the that’s that’s I guess that’s what I’m kind of making a plea for is that we’re we’re shifting too much
Towards the entertainment and shifting away from education so yeah we’ll be wowed for a bit but then what’s next like they’re going to want more and more you know shocking or more you know it’s it’s going to to to stimulate that that uh release of endorphins or whatever
It’s going to take more and more to get them excited about things and pretty soon they’re just going to be like no I’ve seen it all I don’t I don’t have any interest in this you know they kind of have you seen coyote Peterson get bit by an alligator snapping turtle come on
Yeah but how many bites until you’re like okay I’m sick of watching this guy get bit by stuff you know everyone loves watching someone get hurt which is terrible and I actually am not one of those people whenever I see a video of somebody that’s getting bit or stung or
Like you know hit by something I can’t watch it like those videos of people getting bit by Crocs I cannot physically watch them they disturb me to the core but if you look at how many people kyote Peterson has following him people like watching him get hurt it’s true it’s
True yeah I I mean they like his educational content of course yeah and I and yeah he he is putting out a lot of uh information as well so I get that I don’t know I don’t watch him but I I’ve never watched him I’ve seen the
Thumbnails and I’ve I’ve heard all the the clips of him getting nailed by a tarantula hawk so I did watch him Chase around a parenti on one of his videos so he he did put out a few factoids about parenti so I appreciate that but hey you
Watch the video yeah I did yeah hey any video of a parenti I’m I’m on board yeah well um I don’t know any any uh final thoughts I it’s getting late where you’re at we’re we’re West coasters so it’s not as bad for us but
Oh I stay up until like 2 or 3:00 in the morning most days so it’s it’s not that late for me um I would like to go on record before we close this episode to say that I’m not actually on this side I’m I’m much more on the education side
But I like playing Devil’s Advocate because I feel like until you can play both sides of the coin on a topic you don’t know it super super well and so I’d like to say that I’m much more on the educa I think if you watch the anything that I post online you’ll see
That it’s much more along the education side of things but I do understand that the entertainment has its place uh even though I don’t particularly like most of the people who entertain when it comes to uh reptiles they kind of get on my
Nerves but and I I did I I do enjoy your memes that you put out too oh yeah ENT stuff pretty funny stuff yeah I just I think about uh you know if if you can I think it goes back to just like reaching people if you can
Reach people you can teach them things yeah but you have to be able to reach them first because there’s I know so many people who are like so incredibly smart they’ve got all this incredible knowledge I think that they’re like the Most Fascinating People um but to the
Average person they go I don’t even understand what he’s talking about right now like it just doesn’t doesn’t doesn’t reach him and for me that’s tragic because I’m like there is so much cool information out there like yeah Bob rock over here when we were hanging out at
Carest I was like oh my God this is like just makes my brain tingle with all the incredible like stuff and and and talking with you and then Zach Bas and just talking about all of these like you know such such interesting things and then I think about like the um you know
The average person who’s watching a YouTube video and I just know that they would be bored to death with the conversation that we’re having right now um but for me I’m like oh man this is just like I wish I could just sit here and talk all night because I just I just
Soak that stuff up because I think that you can learn from just about anyone um you know I’ve learned things from 10year Olds who have who have come on tours and you know the moment that you think that you know more than everybody that’s the moment you should give up because I have
Learned things from all kinds of people and uh the more different types of people you meet the more things that you’re going to learn and the more ways that you can apply those things to the things that you’re currently doing you know look at the fish Hobby and the way
That they are they’ve got these timers on their lights that ramp up to create a mimic the sunrise Peak during the day and then ramp down at night time what do what do our what do our timers do they turn on at 8 o’clock in the morning and
They turn off at 8 o’clock at night man like hard on hard off that’s it cool it did the thing right but if we if we are you in our own bubble we don’t we don’t ever get to learn those things we don’t ever uh get a chance to grow and I think
That that’s part part of all of this is growth and uh you know go to Steve Rin go to Brian bark as you watch them they grew and and and changed and developed as they went on in their career you know Steve Irwin was catching things in his
Jeep and putting in a little you know bucket basically you know he’s got like this little tiny box that you’re like oh the crocodile’s going to break that thing immediately I don’t know what he was thinking doing that um and you know now he’s you know his legacy has built
This incredible Zoo where people can go because they saw the dude jump on a snake out in the desert face first and land on a parenti you know they saw him do that but then they come to the zoo and they learn about Australian wild
Life they get to see a qual up person they learn about that thing they you know I haven’t been to a Australia yet I know that Australia Zoo is high on my list when I go there and I need to see a Death Adder and a lace monitor but uh
You know uh all of this to say that uh we start with education we start with entertainment right when when you’re a kid you know besides us freaks you know the average kid is going to look at oh bright colored snake oh it grabbed the bird oh you know just something to grab
The attention yeah and then after that that’s when everything else conspires that’s when everything else happens and so uh we we do need to have that entertainment we do need to have something that draws people in I think that the fish hobby right now is I’m not
Going to say it’s suffering but it is struggling because they are having a tough time getting newer people to to to join and to to really get into it you know less people are going out and getting a fish tank for their kids because it’s a lot of work you know back
In the day they didn’t really tell you how much work it was that it said you get a fish tank you got some kids get a fish tank they’ll have them for you know a couple months and then you get rid of your fish tank and uh you know the fish
Hobby is is struggling right now because it’s it’s not as many people that are getting drawn in because they are lacking in that entertainment portion of things and you know they had like Deadliest Catch and you know there there are things out there they you know they’re shark week undiscovery and all
That sort of stuff but that doesn’t always trigger the same interest as people seeing you know a cobra or a rattlesnake or or or whatever and so the entertainment portion of things uh reaches so far so deep down into uh the pool of people that would never have
An opinion one way or the other otherwise and after that is where all the other things happen and you know some people don’t ever develop past I need to see a guy hold a king Cobra um and and do something irresponsible with it some people don’t ever get past that
But there are lots of people who do and without that they wouldn’t even be interested in in the very basics of anything that we have to offer anything that we have to share um and if people don’t care uh you know people don’t get invested that’s a Steve Irwin one of the
The things he said he like you know gone are the days of looking at Wildlife Behind The Zo zoom lens no no no I’m going to take you and I’m going to bring you right there with me if I’m saving I think it’s whales in the ocean I want
You there with me if I’m catching snakes I want you there with me because if you can make people care about Wildlife then they want to save it because people want to save the things that they care about and that is the whole portion that that
Was his thing that is what he was and you know I think that he was pretty good at doing that yeah and I think he was definitely on to something because you know I I’ve watched lots of videos about you know whale sharks but swimming with
A whale shark last uh last month I mean you know totally different you know than watching it it was so so great to experience that even bump into one on accident the wave pushed me into one like the guy like dude don’t you’re not
Supposed to oh wa oh wa it’s the wave it wasn’t you know he’s like for legal purposes I didn’t touch it I just I was I was near it or to find you know find that helila monster crawling around and just s sit and watch it and you know
Just get excited about it that’s it’s what it’s all about I think you know just getting that experience and and that can only uh you know those experiences are are irreplaceable you can see as many videos as you want on YouTube but once you experience that for
Yourself it’s the next level I think so you’re in a rattlesnake man just a little buzz oh Mano yeah poor Keith we were looking at a a clober ey a banded Rock rattlesnake and uh and you know we could hearing High frequenc yeah I’m like oh man yeah maybe you should walk behind
Us I don’t want you stepping on a club but yeah that’s uh just yeah that’s an intense sound to hear that rattlesnake from a big old western Diamond pack or something you know to feel that feel it you know you feel it so yeah yep that’s good
Stuff H yeah so much so much cool information and you know that Dunning Krueger effect is a real deal and it’s kind of spreading and it’s kind of scary so let’s let’s combat that let’s let’s let’s actually learn stuff and you know realize that you don’t know a lot and
There’s a lot to learn and and that’s that’s the joy of life you know is learning new things and finding new things out and you know the great thing about having a bad memory like me is you can learn the same stuff over [Laughter] again yeah but yeah I yeah I think this
Was a a great discussion I really uh appreciate your insights that was some some fun Devil’s advocating you did there listen man that I’m all about that like I said I if I feel like I am well versed on a topic I want to be able to
Even sit on the side that I don’t agree with and be able to make some points and and I feel like that’s kind of where I was at tonight oh yeah you’re that’s the that’s the whole idea of the show and you’re a heavyweight man that was great
Yeah that’s what I like it I like it when there’s some uh some back and forth some some you know opposing opinions on him exactly yeah good stuff well um where can people find you talk about your uh your podcast and all the stuff you’re doing yeah yeah check out the
Reptile Talk podcast that’s with uh my buddy Jeremy uh from brassman reptiles I’ve known him for over a decade now uh we do a podcast where we just uh talk to people about reptiles and talk about the things that they find interesting uh you know we try and get people on who I
Think can share a new perspective or or something that people can learn from and so uh it’s kind of less structured we just kind of like let the conversation go where it’s going to go U but reptile talk check it out we’re on all the streaming things if you’re listening to
This wherever you’re listening to this you can find reptile talk on there too yeah you guys are really fun to listen to I I really uh enjoy your podcast for sure you have a really kind of a nice easy banter and you you’re fun to you’re you’re always positive and energetic and
It’s it’s really a fun time to listen to so yeah highly recommend I I I appreciate that I feel like uh coming from the education portion of things when I get to like talk reptiles with people I just get so into it and like I’m sure you know Rob
Knows when I was out there I was like oh man I just I get so excited talking about things and hard to keep it all under wrap so you know on the podcast I just gotta keep it keep it cool and Casual well that was I mean I always
Thought you know the the phone conversations that you have with your reptile buddies are always I just thought that would be a a fun podcast just to record your telephone conversations You’ probably have to edit out a lot of it you know to to spare feelings or something but
But uh yeah it’ be it’d be interesting yeah yeah I mean so yeah check that out reptile talk uh if you want to see what I’m doing and look at all my reptile memes uh check it out Rob is creeping at real on Instagram please don’t add me on
Facebook uh I I I prefer to just have yeah I prefer to just have like uh people who I know in real life on Facebook I do have a lot of friends on Facebook but I do know you know probably a third to half like probably about half
Of the 4,000 people that are on there or whatever it is so I’ve met all of them in person um and I try and keep things positive and introspective and and uh you know I try to I like to make people think because uh there is a a serious
Gap in our social media uh literacy uh programs of being on social media platforms there’s definitely a gap of you know pushing people to think critically about things and I hope that with the things that I share people can think critically about them and if people have a different opinion I’m
Always willing to hear that out and to you know uh take into consideration that I don’t know everything you know no that’s awesome yeah I uh I I I just like from from the first time I met you I became a fan you know you’re just you’re
Just that kind of guy you know just and uh I think you should limit it you know your friends list to anybody who’s eaten one of your bacon cupcak cupcakes there you go great I should you’re quite the quite the cook there clear out some people real
Quick yeah but awesome man well we kind of I appreciate you guys having me on so much hon a lot of fun yeah we’ll we’ll have to have you back for sure if if you ever have any ideas you want to get get a fight out of your system just let us
Know happy to have you back anytime we’re going to do the the free handling episode is free handling good for the hobby sorry you can have the you can have the pro free handling side I’ll do the con you know on that one yeah well
I’m I I guess I could be classified as a Nipper called me a dirty freeer in Arizona oh you tailed something yeah I tailed it was a a little coral snake it was Tiny so I don’t think I could have got it any other way and it was its tail
Was just sticking out from like the this uh fallen yucka or something like it was underneath this plant most of it and I just saw the tail I’m like that’s a coral snake I don’t want to let this thing get away so I I grab it and I’m
Like okay I got it now what you know give me something to put it in quick so we could go photograph it and stuff and we put it back right where it was you know right where we found it but yeah that was and uh and you know I don’t
Even know if it could have bitten me but yeah ruining the hobby look at this guy over here he’s freeing thing posting it on online for the likes I knew it I knew it Justin juland are just doing things for the views you got me the knockout punch right
There well and I I guess you know along these veins we kind of like to end the show with anything educational or anything interesting you’ve seen in the last uh you know few weeks or months or whatever um unfortunately there was some bit of bad news lately there was a a guy
In Colorado who who gotten bit by a heila monster and actually died died a couple days later yeah and it wasn’t even a full grown one really a juvenile I didn’t didn’t see that in there that’s that’s crazy yeah what a I mean it’s a
Totally rare thing I mean he had to have been had some kind of allergy or supposed to be the first person since what 1930 to 1930 y yep so almost 100 years uh since the last person was and and that that documentation for that person wasn’t from a hospital or medical
Journal it was like from some article uh written someplace so it’s so possibly quite possibly even longer than even longer yeah you would wonder about underlying health conditions and you know uh allergic reaction just the whole context of it I don’t doubt that there’s more to the story that we’ll never know
Um but yeah unfortunate certainly yeah so and hopefully there won’t be any negative repercussions of for reptile Keepers in Colorado you know they won’t start try to Outlaw you know heila monsters because there’s a documented you know death on the books or something so I don’t know as oppos to Decades of
Them being kept safely you know talk about doc Seward Pro all these you know some real innovators in terms of um captive heila monster propagation and all like y one of the one of those Pioneers in heila yeah keeping and just basic biology of the thing yeah but a unfortunate for sure yeah
Yeah the dude was like 34 years old too he wasn’t even that old so yeah yeah pretty young just goes to show you people got to be more careful with their Hilo deral like I see a lot of people laying with them on their chest and like
Putting them up to their face and stuff I’m like oh man you have no no concept of like self-preservation at all yeah and that’s I mean that’s the thing that’s I guess maybe going back to our discussion where you know kind of that entertainment is leading is like we we
Want to have some shocking thing that we’re doing with a reptile rather than just saying this is a hila Monster look how I mean what a what cooler lizard can you see you know than a hila maybe a maybe a preny but that’s just me but you know heila monsters are such cool
Lizards and you know they’re kind of you know plotty Dopey demeanor kind of belies that they are a venomous animal you know and and and you don’t know that you have an allergy until you’re bitten and in the Intensive Care Unit you know that so why take the risk why why uh you
Know my thing is that you gotta you got to tail a snake sometimes that’s venomous or you gotta move them or if you’re keeping them you’ve got to interact with them at some on some level and if you don’t know how to properly handle them you shouldn’t be keeping
Them first off you know but you also shouldn’t be taking stupid risks like you know holding a wild cobra a midbody you know that that’s just asking for trouble you know I I just don’t get it you’re going to lose a finger or or worse you know yeah for real anyway my
Thing is that like like I was telling you the average person has no frame of reference so when they see someone with a heila monster on their chest they’re not going oh look at that venomous lizard they’re going oh that dude’s got a lizard on his chest they don’t need
They have no and that’s one of the things that I argue with people who freeh handle things they’re like I’m showing people that like venomous snakes are not out to like kill people and I’m like I guarantee you if you pick up a rat snake and the rat snake does the
Same thing that the Cobra does people are just as entertained and you are at no risk of dying from the rat snake I I guarantee it because all people see is you holding the snake that’s got its mouth open and everything else is almost everything else is irrelevant to them
You know for the average person when it comes to entertainment and and it’s just risk reward man you got to weigh it and people who know who know better are like who’s this IDI yeah they’re they’re not entertained they’re they’re just like freaking out cuz they’re like oh great
Here comes legislation you know like yeah the only reason people know their deadly snakes is if you’re telling them but yeah you could hold a rat snake and say this is the most dangerous snake on earth and I’m I’m handling it because I’m cool you you don’t even have to say
That just just the fact that it’s a snake and it’s got its mouth open is enough for most people I’m not most people probably think any snake bite is probably close to lethal yeah yeah I I would have so many people on our tours ask that they’re like have
You’ve been bit by a snake and I’m like lots of them and they’re like you’re not dead and I’m like yeah I never bit by a venomous snake I’ve been bit by you know lots and lots of harmless snakes you know not regularly but it has happened
You know yeah I got bit by an inland this week if you can believe it I think I was a little bold I it was he was probably thinking it was feeding time and I was reaching him to grab him and he just gave me a little nit but yeah that’s a rare
Event B by hard to get bit by an inland yeah I love those they’re so pretty yeah they’re so cool all right well um thanks again for coming on Rob it’s been been a pleasure to having you here and really uh enjoyed hearing your perspective on these things
And lots of great points so yeah again we’ll have you back anytime so just say the word yeah it is Fight Club time thank you guys for having me on we got to ring the bell ding ding ding ding it’s over you guys got to leave a comment and
Let us know who won the fight there you go or or don’t because I’m pretty sure or don’t or don’t no yeah thanks again man we’ll catch youall again next week for another episode of reptile Fight Club Fight Club
1 Comment
Had a great time with yall! Thank you for having me 👏🏼💪🏽