Green Heat (And Cooling) Under Our Feet – Ep154: Tamsin Lishman

Tamsin Lishman joins Bryony this week to talk heat pumps. Tamsin is CEO of Kensa Group, a Cornwall-based manufacturer and installer of ground source heat pumps. Kensa is the UK’s only manufacturer of ground source heat pumps. Both air source and ground source heat pumps are rapidly growing technologies, and Tamsin believes that Kensa’s heat pumps can – and will – be deployed to electrify domestic heating in the UK. On a recent episode of Cleaning Up, Fatih Birol, Executive Director of the IEA, argued that heat pumps are “the closest thing to a silver bullet” we have in the race to net-zero. In over two decades, Kensa has saved over 1 million tonnes of carbon through ground source heat pump installations. The Kensa Group is partly owned by Legal & General Capital, part of Legal & General PLC, and Octopus Energy.

Tamsin was appointed CEO of Kensa Group in July 2023. Previously, she had stints at EnergyNest and Centrica. She holds a Master of Engineering from Oxford University.

Links

See Kensa’s website here: https://www.thekensagroup.com

Read the IEA’s report on the future of heat pumps: https://www.iea.org/reports/the-future-of-heat-pumps

(For UK viewers) Check out the UK government’s tool to see if a heat pump could be suitable for your home: https://www.gov.uk/check-heat-pump

Read this Guardian piece on heat pump installations in the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/08/greener-cheaper-much-warmer-heat-pump-owners-laud-their-new-system

Read about Kensa’s recent fundraise of £70m from Octopus and Legal&General, with the help of EcoPragma Capital, here: https://www.kensaheatpumps.com/news-blog/pump-it-up-octopus-energy-and-legal-general-make-britains-biggest-investment-in-ground-source-heat-pumps/

Hello I’m briany Worthington and this is cleaning up what are the challenges in getting to Net Zero is how to replace fossil fuels burned to generate heat currently the dominant provider in the UK and in many countries is fossil gas distributed to individual homes via networks of pipes and burned in boilers

There’s currently a fierce debate about whether the replacement for this greenhouse gas Laden sector should be a substitute fuel or a shift to electric heating most efficiently through the use of heat pumps heat pumps are essentially refrigerators operating in Reverse using electricity to extract heat from the air

Or the ground and boost it to the temperatures we need to keep our homes snug in Winter and as an added bonus cool in summer my guest this week is Tams en lishman newly appointed CEO of UK company kenag group tamson leads an experienced team of Engineers product designers and project

Developers focused on scaling the heat pump Market I wanted to ask Tamsin about kenza’s networked ground Source heat pump solution their goals as a company and also about being a female leader in the traditionally male dominated energy sector sadly there is some background noise as we were recording in central

London but to compensate viewers of our YouTube channel can enjoy some images of Kenza products please join me in welcoming Tam’s en lishman to cleaning up before we start if you’re enjoying cleaning up please make sure that you like subscribe and leave a review and tell all your friends about us to make

Sure you never miss an episode subscribe to us on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform and follow us on Twitter LinkedIn or Instagram over the holidays we moved the cleaning up newsletter to substack where you can find it on M ml cleanup. substack docomo dos substack doomgal climate leaders on cleaning up.

Live that’s cleaning up dolive cleaning up is brought to you by our lead supporter Capricorn Investment Group as well as by the LI Foundation the gilardini foundation and our newest supporter EO pragma Capital tamson welcome to cleaning up it’s h very pleased to see you and nice

To be in person um I’m going to start off by asking the obvious question which is could you introduce yourself using your own words and tell us a little bit about what you do and how you got here yeah so tamson lishman I am the CEO of

Kenza group and what Kenza group are our mission is to decarbonize heat at scale using network heat pumps so that’s white heating box in people’s homes connected to pipes in the ground that take that warmth from the ground that comes from the Sun and then boost that to heat

People’s homes and I would describe myself as a you know passionate about decarbonizing heat and a practitioner in the energy transition that’s wonderful and you’re a newly appointed CEO so how long have you been in post so I’ve been in post since October um so I think what

Four months um and but it feels inevitable when you’re doing something you love with an amazing team feels like I’ve been there for years amazing and so tell us a little bit about the path to then taking over a CEO of Kenza what were you doing before so before Kenza I

Worked in another heat decarbonization scale up looking at industrial decarbonization and then before that I did a variety of senior roles in running energy generation businesses in the water industry um and generally energy back so my my background is really a combination of strategic Partnerships how to grow businesses and Commercial

Business models running big complex operational businesses and building great teams and that’s what I really love doing and solving difficult problems and so just because let’s just dig into a bit to Kenza then so I first came across Kenza I think I was in the House of Lords working on an energy bill

And one of the board members mentioned it to me and I had not heard of it of course then found out about it and thought oh wow another brilliant little jewel in the BR crown of En eny transition companies but I felt it had quite a low profile but tell us tell us

A little bit about where kenzer is today and and and what you’re actually currently doing today yeah so where kenzer is today we’ve just got investment last year from legal and general and octopus that helps us scale and so our mission is to grow to 10

Times our current size in the next five years creating one and a half thousand jobs ourselves decarbonizing big chunks of the UK’s Heat and implementing area by area Street by Street decarbonization where residents can sign up have a white box of their choice fitted by their own plumber in their

House with the electricity Sprite of their voice Choice pay a small standing charge to Kenza and keep their house cozy and warm and cool in summer using ground Source uh cooling as well so let’s just talk a little bit about ground Source um heat pumps because heat

Pumps aren that well known and if they are known it’s mostly the airs Source heat pumps which are the kind of refrigerant like units on the sides of houses but but the ground source that you do is a network scale do you want to just describe it to us yes so we do

Network heat pumps which is shared B holes so holes into the ground and then shared pipes that then connect to individual people’s homes why do we do that ground Source heat pumps are the most efficient so they use 40% less electricity in typically than an air

Source heat pump and that means over the life cycle of the the heat pump they usually have about 20% lower life cycle costs so they’re better for consumers and better for the electricity grid because they use less energy and what they do is take that heat from the earth

So the ground is always around 10 to 15 degrees throughout the year take that heat then into the heat pump and the heat pump then transfers that to a gas boosts that heat using a compressor exactly like the reverse of our fridges and then that heat then can heat our hot

Water and our Heating in our homes um so very simple the technology is designed to be very simple very robust longlasting and really quite boring um which isor boring is good right and so to the components are you’re drilling down to a certain depth and then you’re

Installing a pipe that’s collect in the heat from from the ground as you say ultimately the ground stays at a nice level temperature throughout the year and then you’re using a unit within the home to compress that and boost it up to the levels that’s right a unit within

The home and again ground Source heat pumps can be in a Cupboard Under the Stairs exactly where we have our boilers today right and you actually call them your shoe box don’t you cuz they’re quite compact so our products called The Shoe Box and it is the size of a

Microwave so goes in a kitchen cupboard so very compact and and then let’s just talk about Ken of the business then so you’re a manufacturer and a developer a project developer installer right so we three things we manufacture heat pumps we install them at scale and then with

The support of oxis and LG we fund them so we take away that barrier which is the the higher upfront cost so we fund the ground arrays and then we allow consumers to pay a small standing charge exactly like they do for gas and electricity today so we do the end to

End the whole system and that’s actually something we think is really important is our knowledge about from B hole to radiator how we keep homes cozy and warm in summer and cool so yeah warm in Winter and cool in summer yeah which is an added bonus right that that the

Current gas boiler doesn’t provide right we all love our gas boilers don’t we really but in the summer they’re not very useful whereas this little white box does both yes so this little this actually it’s not the white box but it’s the ground aray can then also provide

Cooling and summer so taking that excess heat find cool to home putting it in the ground and it has the add benefit of warming the ground and then making actually more efficient in winter so that Cooling in summer makes the reduces cost in Winter for people there’s a real

Win win win and the other thing that I think is exciting about this is that just in terms of energy balances so you’re taking electricity from the grid putting one unit of electricity in for about four units of usable heat so it’s incredibly efficient so incredibly efficient and then again we’ve got work

That we’re working on to create also then the ability to use demand side response and more flexibility so today there’s flexibility inherently in using a heat pump and we’re looking at how we wait over 24 hours Flex there are more storage flexibility so really then allowing us to optimize how we take

Electricity from the grid to support lowest cost of generation lowest cost of transmission upgrades and what we did with Element enery last year showed that there’s an opportunity of up to 23% lower cost of electricity transmission and generation through using ground Source heat pumps that’s matched by the

Department of energy in the US who published a study saying there’s an opportunity for 38% lower electricity transmission upgrade using ground Source heat pump so really big system opportunity yeah through that efficiency and we imagine those cold days like we had last had recently those cold days

And winter where everyone wants a cozy house how do we make sure we’ve got the lowest Demand on the electricity grid overall and that’s where the ground really comes into its own because just below the surface very little changes temperat 10 15 de exactly now it all

Sounds amazing and I suppose one of the challenges though we have is that people’s understanding of the efficiency gains like a systems level perhaps isn’t quite there is it and one of regular listeners to Michael’s podcast will know that one of the things that we’re competing against at the moment is this

Idea that we might perhaps use a like for like fuel say for example hydrogen which isn’t quite a like for like but um and and that sort of idea that we might just reuse the gas Network and put a different fuel into it does seem to be

Causing a bit of confusion but unlike the heat pumps instead of getting a big efficiency gain you’re getting an actual efficiency penalty which is it’s much less efficient to create the hydrogen than the natural gas so how are we going to communicate this to people that it’s really clear to understand that one

Option is efficient and and clean and the other option is you know actually going to add to our overall energy needs it’s a great question because I think you know this is it why are heat pumps so attractive is because you put one unit of energy in and for us four units

Of heat out and that’s our experience is actually we’ve done uh recently 273 tower blocks in thork and there the residents have been able to drop their energy bills actually they’ve dropped they they’ve chosen more Comfort interestingly so but their energy bills have hared so that’s allowing people to

Have in and this is in social housing much more Choice over how they spend their money and more Comfort um so I think you know this is this is very much how do we communicate it and a bit of why am I here and what’s important to us

Is sharing that there is heat pumps are a solution but also most importantly for us networked heat pumps ground Source heat pumps done at scale are a critical part of the pathway to decarbonize heat there’re a solution for area you know Street by Street area by area decarbonization with pipes in the ground

And then allowing consumers to choose as and when they want to sign up or not so again really mirroring the gas grid today or how we heat our homes today a white box of our choice providing hot water and heating in a cupboard that we choose connecting to pipes in the street

Funded by institutional investors a small standing charge and our own choice of then the electricity you know user we do and that’s really important to us I think you know we actually are quite encouraged what we see as the the sort of the death throws of perhaps alternative heating but there’s still

Some way to go and we see this opportunity about using the most efficient form of heating as really being important to get um you know get into the get make sure it’s part of the toolkit policy makers local authorities you know and consumers that this this is

Going to be an e ease ease of switch and again our whole mission is how do we through scaling we can bring our cost base down by 60% and so the mission our mission is to make it no more expensive ideally cheaper for consumers to heat their homes with a ground Source heat

Pump as a gas boiler Maybe not today but traditionally yeah and and I I guess at the moment there are two barriers one is The Upfront capital um and then there’s the fact that electricity generally is a bit more expensive but but as you say you’re using a quarter of the

Electricity you to get so the the up capital I mean this is something there there are billions of pounds of investor money ready to be deployed and that ability to deploy institutional investors into the into the infrastructure exactly we do many things actually for me Isn’t a barrier but more

Around the policy signals and the confidence in the business model um but there is no shortage of investment ready to be deployed and certainly you know we’ve got billions of pounds ready to go um the electricity yes I mean it it seems in a world where we’re looking to decarbonize heat and support

Electrification in in the home that we put increased taxes on electricity rather than gas and so create PR incentives and I think you know it’s encouraging to see the focus on that but anything we can do to support for using electricity in the most efficient way

For heating clearly is a good thing yeah and just going back to the point you made about the fact that this is quite similar to how the gas networks were rolled out right it’s an in infrastructure that’s invested in and then the consumers presumably if you’re

Taking a sort of average treat you you need about half of them that’s right we would look for about half to sign up very similar to fiber roll out half to sign up up front and then we’re confident that as people see their neighbor and the Comfort it’s providing

Or their gas boilers ready to be replaced that again other other um residents will then sign up but it isn’t then uh you what can feel for people like that scary mandate you must on a date change we really believe in the importance of consumer Choice yeah and

Giving the best experience making it easier as say easier and cheaper that’s that’s everything how do we make it easier and cheaper yeah and and again for those you’ve been following Michael’s work and the work of this podcast you they people may know that um one uh kind of almost cuack the

Government was driving this policy down was to mandate that everyone should replace their gas boilers at a village scale with hydrogen boilers and a hydrogen Network and it it made they you seem to do it all wrong I I don’t know who’s to blame whether it was the local government the government national

Government all the Gas Distribution companies who given the task but the trials that were you know suggested have both fallen over because of lack of public Buy in so I guess you’re learning from all of that and thinking how do we make sure we do it much better yeah so

Ken’s a 25y old company and has been installing Network heat pumps so ground Source heat pumps in people’s homes for over 10 years so actually we’ve got a lot of experience of how do we take residents and our customers through that journey of retrofitting they heating we

Have a project in coral and since then’s called heat the streets where we’ve done a mass retrofit of um of the part of the village five times over subscribed and again there that’s heat the um pipes in the ground funded by institution investors and and actually in this case

EU money and then heat pumps so we’ve actually got a lot of experience of how do we take people on that journey of what’s what’s a ground Source heat pump how will it do and we really pride ourselves in that ongoing customer support and keeping people Co this is

Kind of the heart of Kenza one of our phrases we we do the right thing even if it’s difficult and that’s the sort of ongoing so so that’s something and and clearly we have more to do but that bit about how do we work people to make sure they’re confident and comfortable and

That their home’s going to be warm so given what you just said about being 25y old company why is it that no one’s heard of you I mean honestly you know you’ve been sort of doing this great work but you’re not visible that I’ve seen sort of in the corridors of

Westminster so tell us a little bit about what you want to do in that respect yeah so I mean I think this is now we’re in this new I call the new phase of heat 2024 is the year of heat and I think we’re seeing one heat decarbonization much more in the public

Domain and the policy domain and this is partly you know what what the role of me and the rest of my team is how do we share this you know incredible opportunity for how do we decom in the most efficient way in the way that’s best for consumers so people know know

What we do and again one of my you know one of my areas of you know opport it’s an opportunity and threat isn’t it but the threat is no one knows about Network heat pumps they’re missed and we end up with an approach that is more expensive

And less fair for consumers um and that really you know it it drives us in a you know the company’s very purpose L and we’re all very purpose really drives us to why we do it so yes and I think you know we welcome all the sort of

Suggestions how can we do more and get this on the on the radar of government policy makers and consumers right well I think one of the things is cuz you’re you’re based in cormal is that right we’re based in Coral although the the we’re headquarter in cor and we’re at a

Heart of cage company but actually we’re a UK company and our you know we’re where homes are and where people live and so that means we have a UK wide spread and people in Kenza all across the UK right we need to see more of you

I think in uh in in in in in White Hall and Westminster because it you know my experience is part of politics is just who show shows up and at the moment there are a lot of lobbies showing up with their Solutions and I think it does inevitably just distorts people’s

Awareness if if you know all they ever hear about is hydrogen ready boilers or whatever so yeah hopefully you’ll have the time to become up here more often and yes sell the store and thank you for the CHP you’re very welcome so turning then

To um policy right so it is you know a sector which is you know regulated we have we have a price regulator we have government policies all over the place you know trying to guide Capital into the right Solutions so tell me about the policies that you’re watching that are

Going to hopefully help so there are a number of really important policies for us um one of them is heat Network zoning and this is the one where we believe it’s really important Network heat pumps are part of the toolkit part of the solution for heat networks so this is

Where we’ll designate part of cities and towns to have heat networks and that can be a number of different solutions at a at a local level City level a city or area area local planning level local planning level um a network heat pumps are the most efficient form of heat

Network for what we call Mid density housing what does that mean in reality Terrace streets blocks of flats the kind of three High blocks of flats so if we all pick to those really really dense big city centers centralized plants best there and we really want centralized plant meaning centralized air source or

Some other form of centralized plant has been um so with then pipes carrying hot water to but this is just for those five five stories up kind of five stories up really dense city center right at the heart so if we imagine Bristol just that

Very tight in a ring very quickly we get into what um what s of mid density housing Terrace houses blocks of flats Flats um that makes off about 50% of the UK’s housing stock and their Network heat pumps more efficient because the efficiency of the heat pumps more than

You know and and is more effective than the hot water pipes which have then the heat losses kick in um so for us heat Network zoning really important Network heat pumps are part of the tool kit and part of the solution set so do you need a positive designation or do you just

Need permissive we just need to make sure in the uh that it’s part of the solution set um and that gives you then an ability to act like a utility in terms of EX drilling into streets drilling into streets being able to bid into um areas to be and also for then

Decision makers to understand the the relative choices and the relative benefits to Consumers okay but it would there be and I mean there’s a lot of local authorities to cover is there a national policy guideline that could help so there’s a national policy guideline there’s been one that’s rolled

Out in Scotland it misses Network heat pumps so that’s a an area of concern for us at the moment there’s consultation going on across England and Wales and this is where for us we really want Network heat pumps we just part of those guidelines part of the awareness as local authorities their

Advisors various other people doing it that this is part of the solution set and to be able to so that’s really important to us then the other things in the policy landscape that are very important the future home standard that supports decarbonization of heat and new build so this is a government policy

That guides the building industry as to what they should build and what the standards the houses should reach and so that supports electrification of heat and new build housing and there actually we’ve been able to develop an offer for new build developers about ground source for them

For less or the same as the cost of air source so better for the developer and then lower costs for the inhabitants of those House the End customer because of the efficiency so we’re really excited about the opportunity and new build that then gives us that ability to scale and

Again the system benefit that lower electricity demand then allows new build developers to unlock sites that might otherwise have issues with grid capacity yes because you’re not requiring a huge new light line to go in just for the heating so those are two um then there’s the clean heat mechanism which again is

A effectively a sort of trading mechanism around where heat pump um there’s a sort of token for every heat pump sold that people who are selling gas boilet then need to have so that again supports it makes it makes heat pumps cheaper for consumers yes so we’re actually doing this interview in a

Location called sustainable ventures in London just over the road from Westminster and there are groups here who’ve worked on a similar policy for transport the zero emissions Vehicles standard as it’s called which is basically what’s made it possible for investors to come in and provide electrification of Transport Services

Whether it’s the cars or the charge points and and that policy has just come into law in January of this year and really what my understanding of the clean heat mechanism is this is the sort of equivalent for heat it asks the current incumbents it were currently happily providing customers with boilers

To diversify into clean and they but they can trade can’t they if they can’t meet their quota they trade and so what it means is that effectively that allows and again it’s another way of reducing that upfront cost for people to switch to heat pumps including ground Source

Heat pumps and it Bas very importantly breaks open the market in bre the market okay so but when what’s the status of that policy goodness me um I feel like I need my my policy director here I think it’s in development you know and I think what we’re seeing is now that’s starting

To be factored into the consumer offers and we’re really excited about that you know for us anything that makes it better for consumers cheaper you know and less of a barrier to switching is a good thing right good so I feel like I need you we in our notes to the show we

We’ll find out exactly what stus that Pol because that policy does seem like the in the financial incentive that could make difference yeah and and is there anything else there are some it’s an exciting so then there are also in the in the public sector space there’s the social housing decarbonization fund

And public sector and those are really important about in social housing taking people out of fuel poverty and decarbonizing heat so an example is there’s around 4,000 electrically heated tower blocks in the UK so these are people use night storage heaters we’ve just seen that the cost of the

Electricity to those is going off and those are in our as a no-brainer to then change to ground Source heat pumps reduce people’s costs substantially and again what what’s important to Kenza is that we look at decarbonization in the round and the most effective way and it has

Traditionally feel seemed or been very focused on fabric and I think you know we always Advocate you should do the most coste effective things and fabric is important but then we need also to look at other Solutions like Network to heat pump yeah so in a sense what you’re

Saying is you know the focus has been on the fabric at the building the kind of the walls the the windows the roof but actually the real emissions are coming from the the heat Source the fuel that’s being burned and more focus on that within within this SE more focus on that

And looking at the most cost effective form of decarbonization yeah because actually if you’re reducing the the you’re basically increasing the efficiency of the actual heat provision then it takes the emphasis off a little bit the fabric of the building which we know traditionally in Britain is is

Difficult right we’ve got all of these period homes and retrofitting has proved to be quite yeah Troublesome yes yeah can I ask you about um Business Solutions because um obviously your technology is focus mostly on that you know 50% of homes in Britain that could benefit but there’s a lot of commercial

Heat and cooling particularly are you focused on that we absolutely are and actually yesterday I went to see one of the projects we’re doing at a a a period conference venue and wedding venue um in Warrington so very much and an important part if I come back to our strategy area

By area that opportunity to decarbonize um supermarkets schools Office Buildings swimming pools in an area and there’s a lovely um sort of efficiency Improvement where the if we provide cooling to a supermarket that heat then makes it more efficient so more cost effective for the local inhabitants nearby so it’s a

Really important part of our strategy we do some important work in what we call non-domestic non um including some schools as I say this wedding conference venue swimming pools fire stations so yes it’s a really important part again of decarbonizing heat and then so turning back to sort of uh Your Role

Then as how because the potential for this to scale seems very high if we can get clarity if we can get clarity that one of the roots to decarbonizing heat is clearly a winner in efficiency terms and cost and comfort um so let’s assume the politicians will you know wake up

And realize that’s the case and then put the policies in place how are you going to scale your your Enterprise so if I various parts of my role one part is how do we get the message out there then SEC a second really important part is what’s that business model it’s very important

To have offers that are competitive best better than the next best alternative and so working again to make sure we’ve got really compelling offers so we’re really proud of what we’ve done in the new build space and how do we continue to make that so it’s the best thing for

People to do then working with my team about how do we scale up both our own internal you know the great people we’ve got but recruiting growing how do we move from doing 100 projects a year to a thousand and then building the Partnerships and slain when not going to

Do all of this ourselves so if we think about what’s the partnership in with someone who does utilities today in doing uh putting pipes in Street what’s the what are the different things so that bit how do we how do we scale and then a really important other part of my

World is how do we take people on this journey and keep that you know keep that purpose that teamwork that ambition and that kind of entrepreneurial Spirit Alive and and so for example you’ve got a Manu ufacturing U facilities um that’s in coral and but your your supply chain

Isn’t particularly complicated is it the inputs are standard no so if we take our supply chains so the inputs that go into our heat pumps are used in many many different settings including fridges so there there’s a widely available supply chain our Factory has capability to scale and then we can replicate our

Factories it’s sort of cookie cutter we can replicate it as the market grows the next bit of our supply chains and when we install them Drilling and that is a bespoke part of ground Source heat pumps there’s some very strong companies in this space and again that will be

Where we look about how do we how do we work together to grow then it’s putting digging temporary holes in the street and putting pipes in which is a widely available skill and then the installation um one of the things that that’s really great about the Kenza heat

Pumps is they can be installed by any competent plumber and this started from the origin where the company was small and couldn’t go the the small team couldn’t drive around the whole of the UK installing them so it’s designed to be installed by any plumo without retraining so we do a lot

Of work about take um supporting plumbers in it’s not a retraining but just the confidence in installing those whether it’s in newb build housing individual people’s houses so again there they’re in this and we we’ve done a a back of the envelope calculation that roughly 98 p in every pound spent

On a kener ground Source heat pump will be you recycled within the UK economy so that green skills you know Green jobs multiplier and the just transition I think is really important to us yeah so you touched on something there which is really interesting it Kenza has all the

Hallmarks to me of a classically engineering Le brilliant little company but you so don’t mean that to sound patronizing but you know with huge potential to scale but um facing some T fairly stiff headwinds because you’ve got an incumbency who are currently very happily providing people with gas into

Their homes and the challenge is to sort of get you noticed and and then also I guess find the right Partnerships and tell me a little bit about how the octopus and legal and general partnership came about because they’re quite well certainly octopus is a new entrance which is always exciting so

Legal and general first invested in Kenzo in 2020 and then have invested more in the latest fun and it’s a very good and for for non UK listeners um legal in general is an insurance it’s an insurance company who also have uh their own um legal and general Capital where they invest in

Things like affordable build to rent um and um various uh parts of the housing market and energy transition that very much around decarbonization and affordable homes so aligned with their mission very much aligned with their mission um so with them you know that first investment and then investing more again being able to

Work closely in Partnership we’ve installed grind Source heat pumps in one of their companies inspired Villages who’ve launched the first Net Zero Retirement Village and and you know again that that opportunity to work together and if I take that as a lovely example of you know when you get real

Partnerships you look at where’s the value creation together how do we unlock that issue on grid capacity constraints how can we optimize with maybe solar PV and the ground Source heat pump and look for that Mutual rather than maybe a more traditional you know client you know client contractor relationship so that’s

That’s leag in general and then octopus came in last year and bring in as well as the investment that deep expertise into the consumer the energy transition and lots of opportunity again for us to work together on how do we create that consumer offer but also create value

From flexibility so we’re we’re very very excited about our you know the that partnership that brings more than money well it’s interesting because you octopus are new entrance onto the scene and that have been you know incredibly successful establishing themselves but you know I I know that they’ve been

Looking deeply into air source uh but it was I was really encouraged when I heard that they now also diversifying into the ground Source because you they’re they’re super focused laser focused on on customers and what they want to be able to offer is is the best service to

The customer so the fact that they’ve recognized this now is I think really good further in your cap yeah yeah well hopefully that partnership will will lead to great things as well yes and then so talking then a little bit outside of the UK yes are these sorts of

Systems in place in other countries so it’s really interesting they’re starting to really be recognized so if we look at the USA there’s now National Grid have just um in Massachusetts is starting a first pilot of four geothermal loops and that recognition around the needs to be something different to gas and what

Looks and feels like gas and is it a geothermal Loop different as just a different phrase good catch same as a network heat pump um just the the American phrase way of saying it okay um um so there also in New York so starting to be in the US recognizing

There is a need to decarbonize homes and provide cooling cool very important in most efficient and and consumer acceptable well same in France where we’re seeing quite strong um momentum in and then we’re getting a lot of interest from areas that have made more traditional District heating who’ve

Realized they’ve hit the limits of what district heating is effective and then recognize this is the answer to you know the gap between air Source heat pumps and District heating so I think you know Network heat pumps or geothermal Loops are not yet on the global radar but

We’re seeing all of those early signs about the recognition about we’ve got a housing or a building stock we need to decarbonized and we’re looking for a solution to fit that and network heat pumps the answer so really you know UK is your focus but there’s nothing to stop your manufacturing business scaling

Out into other markets no I mean so n manufacturing business actually that expertise we’re the expert in that b hole to radiator and that is gives us I think something really important around we can provide confidence and comfort to the home um so that system expertise is

Also really important to us as well as the manufacturing very good and you’ve got an engineering background haven’t you which is why you’re able to speak so eloquently about this topic I do so I am an engineer um and I although I describe myself as I know enough to be dangerous

But not enough to use use ful so uh I tell my team you don’t want me designing you certainly don’t want me installing heat pumps but I think that ability to understand the engineering behind it energy systems but then also bring the partnership and the business and

Commercial and and put it together and that’s what makes it such an incredible company in such an incredible role well and that’s what makes you perfect for this this new phase I think so tamson tell me a little bit about what it’s like to be a a female leader in this

Space because energy is quite traditionally dominated you know by our male colleagues yes so I mean the first I have to say I I think of myself as a leader rather than a female leader but then when you know you prompt me and I think about it I a couple of things so

When I was 10 I wrote in my primary six so sort of um what I wanted to be I wanted to be a leader of an engineering business in the future wow along you know along with I like lasna and didn’t like my brother you know that yeah so

Quite unusual um and then you know various things I was encouraged at School study engineering which if we think about the north of Scotland in the 1990s it’s pretty unusual and then again you know I was always interested in how you know businesses worked how to things got done you just always was

Volunteering for you know additional things but also then was given a number of really critical people gave me quite stretching roles but when you went to university did you study engineering I studed engineering and were you the only woman on the course or how what was the

Balance so on the course of the time I think it was about 20% women um I Was Made I mean had made great friends across engineering but one in particular really close friend where we kind of spurred each other on and encouraged and supported each other um so that was very

Important to both of us at the time we used to try and catch each other out about how you know engineering exam questions um so engineering um so I think I’ve always been used to being you know one of a minority quite often often the only woman in the room at one point

I realized I stopped noticing it um things that have been important to me actually recognizing it’s okay to be be a woman the importance of networks sponsorship and and actually that we can bring often you know have a particular style that may be different but actually

Can bring the best I don’t need to know all the answers but I do like to set you know create brilliant teams who do things we never thought we could do and you mentioned sponsorship there said did you have female mentors or or female other leaders that you yes and I think

You know that’s something that that where as I came up through my career there weren’t very many female leaders and actually one of the people in my network now is one of my old bosses heidy who’s a CEO and I phone Heidi and say Heidi you know can I I’ve

Got this phrase I go what would what would Heidi do have this what would Madonna do in the 90s what would Heidi do so I do think that’s really important and I probably didn’t have so many of those role models as I came through my career I think it’s very important for

People to have Role Models um but I did have some very great sponsors who gave me opportunities to move into Frontline roles I came back from maternity leave and the CEO of the business I worked for gave me up I took on a role running a really big operation so again that

Willingness of people to take you know informed risks um and give those roles and I think there are some things for any women listening about the importance of operational roles and p&l roles and finding opportunities to get those skills know those have been absolutely critical for me to have the skills to do

The job I do today yeah and so in Kenza then is it you know engineering companies tend to be slightly weighted but have you got sort of female leaders that you’re nurturing so absolutely absolutely and we had um women in science and engineering day recently actually we’ve got it’s about a third of

The company’s women no we’ve got more to do and we absolutely want to notur women and and people from you know all kinds of different you to get maximized cognitive diversity but that was you know that I think there’s something again about the the culture of the company about the authentic leadership

Has allowed women to thrive and develop within the company very I this is not to maleart this is in no way at all criticism you know it’s just about the balance isn’t it and the and the fact that as you say the diversity because often you know house

At a household level often it’s the perhaps the woman who’s actually doing the budgeting or making some important decisions um but they perhaps defer you know don’t don’t consider it energy is something they should think about but you know having a female leader in the space I think actually does help kind of

The profile of this issue kind of reach the important decision makers that are out there absolutely and then finally just when we’re sort of thinking about what people you know got a broad listenership to this uh podcast and um I’m just what the messages that you would most like to

Convey about this next 12 months in kenza’s Journey well basic the most important message for I want to convey at the moment is a world of decarbonizing heat without network heat pumps is going to be more expensive and less fair for consumers and so that importance of getting Network heat pumps

On the radar of government policy makers is really important the next thing that’s really important for us is then how do we scale with these opportunities as we’re looking at more of electrification of heat and find those honing our business models but I think it really is that first one a

World of decarbonization heat without network heat pumps is more expensive and less fair for consumers that’s that’s that’s a sort of if I could add my t-shirt logo or the positive which is it’s cheaper and warmer cheaper cheaper and fairer yeah exactly and are there places so you know

People I hope people listening to this are you know persuaded by the physics and and the economics but actually seeing something in action is sometimes the thing that tips people into oh right now you know I can see this so if if people want to do visits or they want to

See examples of your yes that I mean we have projects all across the UK we’ve got a number of great case studies on our website um whether it’s from St sens heat the streets where it is you know this is this is decarbon the pilot of decar mass

Decarbonization tower blocks in thork um fire stations in north umberland um housing in Scotland so a range of things across the UK now the other think that’s going to be very boring for people to come and see see a project that’s done because everything’s beneath the ground

And there’s a white box in a Cupboard providing efficient reliable heat um but yes there are many we said at the start sometimes that’s exactly what we want boring is good boring is good yeah excellent and obviously there’s a play on words there because boring as in

Going into the ground is also what you do and that is that actually the thinking about possible constraints is the is there a bit of a a kind of bottleneck with regard to the the actual drilling because these a relatively big kit a kit aren’t they yes um so the the

Drilling there is I mean today there’s more capacity than than demand in the UK as we scale massively this is an area we’re really looking about how do we support the drilling industry to scale the drill rigs range in size but I mean if we think about them as like a one in

A kind of a sort of a big SUV size oh okay so they can come into the one I saw yesterday um come into a street not not too disruptive so they’re they’re not kind of a what we think of as sort of you know us fracking drill scale okay

And that would do an average size you know you just need one of these vehicles to do the two big drills down so this is it is one drill round size of a dinner plate that goes down 200 to 300 meters okay um and it you know it is size of a

Dinner plate so hopefully this is a street scene that will become more common right that instead of the of you know we’re all used to the sort of you know digging up the TAC and the laying of fiber optics but hopefully over time more and more communities are going to

Get excited about the idea that they’re sort of drilling into the latent heat and cool cooling that’s there under their feet and then it’s helping them have a you know a warmer lifestyle a cooler lifestyle and save money on bills so this and save money on bills um and

And a reliable uh yeah heating Source in the depths of winter and so smart entrepreneurs should be thinking about those service providers and maybe boosting the capacity into those drilling companies and service providers excellent well tamson it’s been a real pleasure meeting you thank thanks for

Coming into London I hope we’ll see you in London a lot more in in your new capacity of raising the flag for this really important technology um really delighted to to meet you and looking forward to hearing of the future exploits of of Kenza and all your partners thank you thank

You so that was Tam’s en lishman to me kenza’s solution offers some pretty fundamental advantages over others being promoted it’s inherently super efficient helping to reduce rather than increase our overall energy demand it carries no risk of dangerous explosions and health impacts from combustion gases and by

Signing up half the customers on the street allowing others to join when ready you get an economy of scale without forcing change on people who are not yet ready what’s not to like as ever we’ll provide relevant links in the show notes and the YouTube channel will provide some visual illustrations of

What we talked about but as tamson said it’s kind of boring but that’s probably exactly what we need more boring boring to tap into the free heat under our feet and just for disclosure last year Eco pragma capital of which Michael is co-managing partner helped Kenza to raise 70 million from

Investors thanks to Ken’s Thomas Roberto and Richard Warren for the help in setting things up to Eliza tuon and Zach zabon for their production support and thanks to you for listening if you’ve enjoyed today’s conversation please remember to like share and subscribe to cleaning up or leave us a review on your

Favorite podcast platform and do please spread the word tell your friends and colleagues and if you want more from cleaning up sign up for our free newsletter on the publishing platform substack at ml cleanup. substack docomo cleanup. substack docomo dolive that’s cleaning up. live