Courtney Lawes on facing down the haters, fighting for family values and refusing to take the knee

Key Words: Premiership Rugby, Northampton Saints, Six Nations, British and Irish Lions, England, Sports, Family, BLM, Leadership, The Centre for Social Justice (CSJ)

In this episode we are joined by one of rugby’s finest international players: Northampton Saints legend, British and Irish Lion and former England Captain Courtney Lawes.

When Courtney decided to retire from international rugby after last year’s World Cup, there was some shock – not least because he was still in the form of his life. But the Dad of four was clear that the time had come to be at home with his young family, not on tour or training with his England teammates.

That belief in the importance of family is central to Courtney. Having seen up close how life can go wrong without that stable background, he is a passionate supporter of the Centre for Social Justice and their work promoting the importance of family and the value of sport.

Serious injuries, a result of Courtney’s uncompromising style of play, have led to long periods on the sidelines. The uncompromising opinions that he holds off the pitch have brought vitriol on social media, most famously when he dared to offer a view around Marcus Rashford’s campaigning.

His resilience in those difficult moments, on and off the pitch, is just one of the revealing and useful discussions we have in this episode. My thanks to Courtney for joining me.

Full transcript available here:
https://www.crisiswhatcrisis.com/podcasts/courtney-lawes-on-facing-down-the-haters-fighting-for-family-values-and-refusing-to-take-the-knee/

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Marcus rashford I just secured food stamps for you know under privilege making sure people didn’t go hungry basically and I I thought that was obviously fantastic but I thought we could also it might be uh good idea to talk about you know a few of ways people

Get themselves in that position um and trying to trying to solve or help that issue as well honestly I don’t don’t think I timed it well and um probably worded it quite poorly as well but um but yeah I landed myself in a bit of trouble I could say

Already welcome back to crisis what crisis the podcast that aims to guide you towards a more resilient life and whatever it might throw at you if this is your first time with us then please do hit subscribe wherever you’re watching or listening it really does help make sure these I hope useful

Conversations are shared as widely as possible my guest today is one of the finest rugby players of his generation former England Captain Courtney laws 105 caps for England Three Six Nations championships 12 appearances for the British and Irish lions and a Premiership title with his hometown Club Northampton Saints a truly Stellar

Sporting career when Courtney decided to retire from International Rugby after last year’s World Cup there was some Shock not least because he was still in the form of his life but in characteristic style Courtney was not for turning he was clear that the time had come to be at home with his young

Family not on tour or training with his England teammates that belief in the importance of family is cental to courney who grew up in the shadow of northampton’s Franklin’s Garden Stadium having seen up close how life can go wrong without that stable background courney is a passionate supporter of the

Center for social justice and their work promoting the importance of family and the value of sport serious injuries a result of Courtney’s uncompromising style of play have led to long periods on the sidelines the uncompromising opinions that he holds off the pitch have brought unwarranted vitriol on social media his resilience in those

Difficult moments on and off the pitch is something we’ll chat about today along with his views on leadership that constant desire for self-improvement and how he’s managed to stay motivated at the highest level for so long Courtney laws welcome to crisis what crisis thank you very much how are you I’m I’m great

Thank you I’m really good um I’ve got to ask uh the weekend um how did it feel uh to be at the start of a six nations and to not be playing uh yeah it it was strange especially being fit like the last couple of Six

Nations I’ve not been fit at the start so i’ had to watch it I’ve been forced to watch uh but this time choosing to watch is was pretty strange cu the the playing bit is is what you love um it’s why you do it um but all the it’s all

The stuff that goes with it that that makes it you know a a tough job really all the training and especially when when you’re a you’re a leader in the group you’re doing a lot of meetings making sure that the team is in the right place to go and play the game and

You’re worried about a lot of different moving parts so um didn’t miss that too much but uh I did I did miss being out there on the pitch with the boys did you ping in a couple of motivational messages ahead of the game any of you

Mates um yeah I mean yeah I spoke well Genji pulled out late um but uh I spoke to him and then I just pinged dingers um and fin a message just say congratulations because they were picking up the first caps and obviously yeah they’re at the club so that that

Was great to see superb um bit of shouting at the TV during the game or not I wasn’t too I wasn’t too bad I I try not to get too emotional about it but obviously I was first half um you know working through some some some stuff uh some

Issues um but I think the boys held it together really well obviously the leadership group and Jamie doing a great job because it would have really easy been really easy to go completely off script and change trying to change everything to fix the problems but they they stuck to their gun

Um stuck to what they wanted to do and eventually came away you know with with a pretty convincing Wing I know I know it was it was tight by the end but they scored in the last minute so um I’d say it’s more convincing Than People G than

Score than score suggest yeah uh courney you made the decision to retire from England um which as I say took a fair few people by surprise for one reason to spend more time with your family you know when I explained that you spent 13 years I think without ever once being at

Home for your own birthday that gives a bit of that gives a bit of context to that to that statement tough decision though right and and and uh obviously a family decision yeah just tell me about how you got there and and when the moment in your mind just kind of yeah

Okay I’m going to do this honestly I’ve I’ve been thinking about it for a while um even probably um probably the last World Cup 2019 I was I was thinking about do do I want to keep playing for England or do I need to be there for my family but I still had

Um quite a lot of things to achieve I wanted to get 100 caps for England that you know I’ve been on the road to that for a long time so that was that was hu really huge milestone for me um and then obviously if you’re going to do that I

Mean I made 100 caps just before the World Cup so you might you might as well go ahead and do the next the next um World Cup cycle so yeah I made the decision to do another world cup cycle um and and and then I I guess from there

It was actually relatively easy to say I’ve kind of achieved what I wanted to achieve obviously we didn’t win a World Cup but we gave everything we had um and and so you know four World Cups 105 tests and 14 years playing for England is is probably you know a good enough

Stint and now I want to make sure that I’m there for my family you’re the master of the understatement it was a good enough stin good enough thing yeah you’ll say that you’ll say that what was the process out of interest cuz I think this is useful

For people right who are trying to ponder a change in their life because that’s what this is for you right it’s it’s the beginning of a of a new of a new phase what was the process that you went through did you sit have a lot of

Conversations was it was it uh was it something that you kind of would would think about go back and return to or was it just actually you know now’s the moment now it feels now it feels right and only really was very clear in your

Mind or did you rely on others to kind of get there um I spoke about it with my Ms mainly um and I think my mom and dad a little bit just just talking about um yeah I guess my thoughts of the previous World Cup and you know I was

Always I was always very determined to do another cycle and and um and and get to another world cup and as soon as I kind of got there and achieved that I was actually pretty pretty content um and it it became quite an easy decision um so that that was obviously great for

Me and then you know the way the way we did it and um I I really couldn’t have given any more to to the team and that tournament and you know um that South Africa game was was so tight so tight um but you know you could you could see

What it meant to us and I I was really happy to even though we lost have have that as my last game for England and um and uh and yeah bow out did anyone try and dissuade you um since definitely and I and I suppose at

The time as well a little bit Steve was very understanding um you know he sat me down was like you know what what what are you thinking I was and obious he said look I need to need to be there for my family and you know he’s a family man

He he he absolutely absolutely gets it and you played with him right I played with him yeah yeah he was skipping when I first got into Camp um so so yeah and then played against him I think the last game he ever played was the the final the Prem Final 2014 that

We won right very narrowly um so uh it’s good that he didn’t hold it against you he didn’t hold it against me but um but like yeah we have a lot of history and and obviously as well he um he coached England under ready for a good few years

As well so yeah we had a a pretty decent relationship and you know he um he respected my decision and you know hasn’t been tempted to try and dissuade me out of it um just yet well I guess um and he won’t be now the the the Six

Nations started but um but I I respect that from him the is the issue really was obviously just one of not being around and even when you were around you you know you talked a bit about this the inability to really kind of settle with your family because you’re then onto

Another immediately onto another onto another cycle just tell me a bit about how that the challenge of that yeah yeah it’s and it’s it’s always it’s always tough because um you you never really feel like you can get your house in order because you know as soon as it you

Get it in order it’s about to come tumbling down again because you’re about to go away um so you almost don’t don’t bother you just kind of try and get through enjoy your enjoy your time at home um put pieces in place where you can but but generally you know that it

All goes out the window when you go home cuz you got four kids and your misses on her own trying to after them all so um yeah it’s very disruptive um obviously the kids uh found it very disruptive that their behavior definitely changes when when you leave home and you’re not

Around and and obviously there well you that was B that was clear to to to you both yeah that that was clear um and also that they’re missing you they want to know when you’re back and all that kind of stuff and it’s it just gets harder and harder though the older they

Get so yeah being at home you’d come back from a tour say Australia tour and that’s that’s probably the long the longest time you get home is from July to November um where you’ve just had a tour but it always just comes around so quickly and then you’ll do the Autumn

Nations in uh well the end of October till the start of December and then you’ll get back for two months not even really about seven weeks and then you’re away for another eight weeks yeah and then you got a tour at the end of the season again so it’s it’s just um yeah

And and that’s without that’s without a World Cup cycle or a lion cycle where which obviously both have been a part of and that’s another they’re both nine weeks on the other side of the world and that’s every two years you’re doing that so um yeah it’s incredibly disruptive

Incredibly disruptive and also you’re not really it’s not just about where you are it’s where your head is as well right and I imagine that the at that level you never really your mind’s never really kind of properly switching off is it from you know from I’m actually not

Too bad at that kind of stuff I’m not too bad at that kind of stuff comp I’m pretty yeah I’m pretty good at tell me how you tell me how you do that um I don’t think it’s a conscious thing I’ve ever I’ve ever um had to learn or you

Know go out of my way to do I just I’ve always been a pretty take as it comes guy um triy to be um pretty relaxed to be honest um and I always try and enjoy my time away so I can make sure that I

Enjoy it when I come back um and you know you if you spend all your time away just missing your family it’d be it’d be hell um and and I think it’ make it harder when you come back to actually enjoy being back with your family the

Family issue courney um um you know that absence from home was something that um you know that you knew a a fair bit about you said that for a lot of your childhood your mom Valerie um was working as a a prison officer yeah yeah um much tougher job than yours

Yes much considerably I wouldn’t tell it that but yeah it is tell me a bit about your childhood because your dad your dad Lyford uh work nights I think he was a bouncer for a while that meant that you spent a lot of time with you during the day yeah which

You which you loved you’re very tight with your dad don’t you you’re very close to your dad tell me tell me tell me a bit about your childhood tell me a bit about your mom and dad uh yeah I mean I suppose it’s by pure coincidence that uh there’s there’s almost N9 years

Between me and my little brother um so it meant that I was um raised you know you know obviously mom um she worked shift so she was around a lot of the time uh but mainly dad dad was was the one especially my early years um to to

Kind of bring me up and I’m very much like my dad um and the opposite is kind of true for for Cam whereby that picked up a a day job and and so M was the primary caregiver for for C and he’s proper mummies boy kind of thing so yeah

We got him really well obviously me and my little brother but uh yeah we’re quite different characters um so yeah my my early days were um you know were spending time with Dad tell me a bit about him I mean he came he came over

From Jamaica he was he was 12 when he came over from Jamaica he had uh he’s the oldest of six including himself yeah yeah um so he’s he obviously had quite a bit of responsibility um with with all of his siblings and and growing up and obviously Britain was a very different

Place when when he came over in the 60s I think or 70s um but um but no like he uh I suppose he had his his troubles the same as the same as everybody else uh but essentially um he loves it here loves Brun um you know integrated

Thoroughly and and and sees himself as as very much um an English English man and the work and the work ethic uh that you’ve clearly got yeah from from your dad and your mom right I me both yeah I mean I mean the jok’s aside yeah that is

A tough job yeah yeah definitely and and they both they both worked incredibly hard to provide for me and my little brother like we didn’t have um you know we didn’t have loads of money growing up but we were never um we were never really without um which is great we we

Never went hungry um and that that’s down to to their hard work and and you know putting in the hours to to make sure the food food was on the table and stability emotional stability exactly um and it’s much easier to do when you’re in a pair um and and and

That is that is that is the Bare Bones of bit yeah um anything in life is going to be harder on your own and that is that is just how it is so Bing Hackney grew up in Northampton Stone throw actually from the rugby stadium Frank

Gard that became um such a big part of your life but um but not the case as a as a young young lad rugby wasn’t really on your radar I’d honestly play anything gen genuinely I’d play anything that I could that I could pick up and and do

Like I was I was mad for it mad for sports and I don’t think I suppose I I like every every child wanted to be a footballer but never never understood uh really how slim a chance you had to become a footballer so you know everybody wants to be a footballer

Until they realized that almost nobody becomes a footballer kind of thing yeah um so but I I just wanted to that play sports have fun and really enjoyed it so yeah I’d play anything I can get my hands on but I didn’t have access to rugby because um I my school didn’t play

It um it was lower middle upper school when I was growing up in Northampton um so they didn’t play in my middle school and if I hadn’t gone to Northampton school for boys um which is a it’s bit like a grammar school yeah um so you

Don’t have to pay to to to go there but it’s a it’s a very it’s a good school really good school um and they’re one of the only kind of state schools in North if if if not the only state school in Northampton to actually play rugby so if I hadn’t have

Gone there I literally would have never I wouldn’t have even known what rugby was really until until it got a bit more popular probably arriving there that wasn’t that wasn’t part of the thinking that wasn’t kind of something that you were planning to do no no not at all not

At all I I I went there because it’s a great school and it provides a really good education and I um and um it was by coincidence that you know i’ i’ tried out for the football team I was playing tennis there I think I tried out for the

Basketball team as well and then they were like oh there’s rugby TR you want to do that I was like yeah I’ll do do anything and then yeah just picked it up loved it um and and it kind of rote So Courtney let’s get back to family you

Have a younger brother Cameron who you mentioned two half siblings from your dad’s previous relationship your half brother um fell into um you talked about this previously but fell into sort of drug related trouble as a young man um which ended I think with him with him

Going to prison yeah I mean that must have been apart from anything else that must have been incredibly difficult for your dad yeah very difficult for the yeah yeah definitely well the thing is Dad Dad was still around for for them um but because they weren’t together obviously it’s it’s very dist

Destabilizing so um and you know a lot of kids grw up not even knowing their dad unfortunately um and you see what what Well I obviously saw what a difference it makes just having that that structure and that stability and that foundation in place for you yeah I

Mean that is a common theme in prison yeah you know lads who don’t know their dad no connection at all much um so that I mean obviously you were young but that’s obviously been a formative thing for you isn’t it seeing he seeing the difference clearly yeah uh obviously

Being grateful for you know for for the fact that you had two parents who were there for you continually but it’s been something that’s really kind of that’s that’s kind of impacted you yeah definitely and look you don’t realize it until you get bit older and and you kind

Of understand and obviously I had that kind of an anecdotal evidence from myself um and then you you kind of do a bit of bit of looking into it uh do a bit of research and you and you start to realize that actually this this this

Actually matches up quite a lot with um quite a lot of society and and as you said what people what people go through and the fact that you know some some ridiculous number like 80 or% of of of men in prison come from fatherless homes

Um and it and you you know you put two and two together so um yeah and look I just want to I just want to help kind of spread the message and um try and help people to make good good decisions because essentially that that’s what

Helps you um you know create the life you want yeah your brother came through we should say yeah yeah yeah no he’s doing good he’s doing good like obviously he’s he’s always um um you know we’re always going to make sure we’re there for him so um but it’s

Great to see him he’s obviously doing well now he’s he’s got a job and he’s uh working working working hard for himself which is great yeah fantastic your mom did she bring the job home at all if you like when you were you were growing up was she would she did you understand

What the job was you know was it was it part of the sort of family conversation in any way uh no I don’t I don’t think it was like occasionally I can I can remember a couple of occasions home pretty bruised and and whatnot where they’ve been you know scraps in prison

And all that kind of stuff yeah some some scary stuff happens and she’s working on um g at the minute which is you know houses some that’s a proper prison yeah yeah some some life lifetim kind of thing and yeah um she actually I think

It was a couple of years ago now um she had me into the prison to um meet some of them um so some of the some of them that have been well behaved basically she wanted to reward them so I said I’ll go in and speak to him that and sat down

Chatting to him and it was actually crazy that a lot of them seemed really normal quite qu quite a lot of them and stuff like that and then I I didn’t realize that I was you know sitting in a room with murderers um kind of thing um

And that you just would not you just would not put it to him kind of kind of thing from from from being around him but uh yeah what was the conversation uh we we spoke a lot about rugby and um and all that all that kind of stuff a

Lot about um strength and condition actually because obviously they’re M into it yeah um so we spoke quite a lot about that um and then obviously I was asking like what you know how do you feel like you’re going to go when do you think about getting out and all that

Kind of stuff but not really that realizing that a lot of them are actually not not going to get out of the out of the prison um so yeah man it was it’s uh it’s tough to find out after um that uh you know they’re going to spend

Their life in there and it’s this um yeah incredibly sad yeah and the challenge the psychological challenge of of that yeah yeah don’t obviously we got to set aside the reasons why they might be there put that at one side but just but just on the you know that how do you

Approach the idea of a life sentence psychologically yeah yeah incredibly tough incredibly tough that’s why your mom’s work is so fascinating and so dangerous important and so dangerous um uh colney incredible rise through the game uh when you look look back at those early uh years of your playing career um

What was it do you think that was motivating you because you do have this reputation for being well whatever comes comes for being pretty relaxed about it all there was obviously a fire burning yeah right I mean there was a proper fire burning you mention there you know

When you first started playing rugby you were running around nailing everyone that was instinctive presumably right yeah yeah I mean what was it how would you when you look back at those very very early years yeah what what is it that’s kind of you know lighting that

Fire if I can put it that way um I probably I’ve always um I’m a pretty proud man proud to a fault I’d say and I am incredibly competitive even though I I come across quite relaxed when I’m um just just in life in general I don’t see the point in doing something

Unless you’re going to be the best at it or at least try and be the best um so that that’s always always going to be the fire inside me it’s it’s definitely the reason why I’ve been able to prolong um my kind of career and I guess my uh

Playing standards throughout my career um up until this point and I’m constantly pushing to be a better version of myself um and be the best player there is I never will be now at this point um but I will I I will chase that till the till the death

For sure so you’re hard on yourself yeah you’re proud but what’s the internal commentary so we’ll get on to the tough moments including some of the injuries and you’ve had plenty of those um some pretty serious ones um but in those early days what’s the what’s the what’s

The commentary it’s not obviously you want to play for England I know you had a coach who told you I think you had a coach who told you to say it out loud right when you yeah that was Norman bar yeah when I was young yeah very young I

Must have been about 14 13 just and he made you say I’m going to play for England yeah um honestly I think um yes I I suppose I got to the point um I was until about 21 Just For the Love of the the game M I just loved playing

Rugby or playing any sports really but but I love I love playing rugby um and obviously I was I’ve been fortunate in terms of my athleticism and and honestly my ability to um learn and respond to feedback is probably um one of the most important traits you can have as a as a

Young player um and it’s certainly one of my better attributes was being able to take feedback and apply it really quickly and therefore develop your game very quickly so that’s that’s how I kind of burst onto the scene was kind of the Love on the the Love of the Game and the

Ability to apply um good coaching feedback kind of thing um and so I broke to the England team about 20 and then I honestly I don’t think I pushed myself hard enough um from kind of 21 um to 25 26 um and it ended up I actually started playing pretty poorly

Um you still playing for England I was still playing for England injuries are you never fell out the team no yeah yeah I I was this is what I mean about you being quite hard on yourself yeah it’s interesting I know but I wasted I wasted

That time I feel like I wasted that time you play for England throughout yeah yeah I played for England throughout and look I was I was I was in the squad but I was in and out of the team in terms of on the bench and starting so I wasn’t a nailed on

Starter but I was just too happy with where I was um too onedimensional and and ultimately not P pushing myself hard enough and it wasn’t until Eddie came in and B basically called me gave me an ultimatum that I actually you know Ed Eddie Jones arrives pulls you into a

Room and says this is how it’s if you want to play for me this is what I’m going to need tell me about that conversation what does he say to you um well Eddie Eddie I think he always saw me as a a good um kind of test player I

Wasn’t playing gra Saints I wasn’t playing badly and I think I was um I was in a place where some games are actually play quite well um and and you know I get m match and all that kind of stuff and then the next game or two

Or three I’d play quite poorly um so while I had the ability um I wasn’t playing nearly consistently enough and I wasn’t playing consistently for Saints um and I wasn’t again pushing myself hard enough and and he I remember he called me and was like look I don’t think you’re playing great

For Saints but you’re a test match player so I want you in the in Camp and then I played Italy um you know had a a pretty average game I’d say um and and it’s quite hard to play Italy especially in Rome but yeah I didn’t I didn’t didn’t definitely

Didn’t have my best game and then he kind of dropped me from the team I was like look you’re you’re not we need more from you basically U we need you hitting people when we need you carrying well um and it was a carrying aspect of your game that you’d that you’d not

Developed as much as you now say you should have done yeah exactly exactly I I kind of I lost confidence in it um because when I when I first came on to the team I was actually really good Ball Carrier um it’s probably what I was more

Known for as well as my my big hits and then yeah for whatever reason just kind of lost confidence in it didn’t didn’t develop it um and and so um I I um yeah it became a one of you know when you look back at that period then what do

You think was going on in your head why I mean because you if you stand back from it as a you know as a from an amateur perspective which is what I’ve got yeah you’re you aside from those bumps that you describe described you’re playing rugby at an incredibly high

Level right you’re you know your your game is you know Allin you know from an outside perspective you’re not someone who you know who who shies away uh you know in any in know to any extent and yet you are you are saying to yourself you’re failing a bit here you’re not

You’re not you’re not you’re not developing as you should develop I mean I’m I’m I’m I’m put putting words into your into your mouth I’m interested in what’s going on you know well the problem was then I wasn’t saying that to myself I was too content with how I was

Playing like I was a good defensive player very good I’d hit people I’d make my tackles i’ get around the park do that but I wasn’t interested enough in developing the other side of my game that I was had actually you know been really good at previously as well um and

Like I was I was um I was calling the line outs and the line outs were going well and I was doing I was doing the fun fundamental things my game relatively well um but I just left uh this this kind of gaping hole in my in my game for and I wasn’t

Interested enough looking back in in in becoming a complete player um and so I wasted a a good few years where I I could have um I could have you know been an even better player you know than I am now and it’s always it’s always uh yeah

It’s always gonna ha me that will always um 2009 as you say you major senior England debut um you remember the call I do it wasn’t even from uh jonno who’s jonno was the uh the you you’d say at at the time um it was from Dylan Dylan Harley right

Okay um so Dill’s obviously in the squad um and I was playing really well for Saints and with just I was only yeah I was still young and it’s a funny story because when you’re coming through the age groups you go away doing the under 18s

Under 20s and stuff like that and I used to hate going away used to hate it I’d never enjoy the food and I’d always lose weight and yeah I just what I just didn’t like going away at all um and then I went to the under 20s World Cup

We played in Japan came home and was like thank God I’m not going to have to to go away with age groups anymore kind of thing and then obviously a few months later I get called up for England um so I was a bit like damn I got go again

Got not the reaction that one would normally give being told they’re about to get their first I think we were going to some I was supposed to be going to some kind of like concert or something with some of the other boys anyway Dill F me up and

It’s like look jonno wants to standing camp and I was like okay fine but I I I really thought that I was just going to be holding tackle bags I thought like oh they just wants to get me a bit of experience kind of thing stepping on for

The first time yeah no it’s crazy is that memory sort of is that sort of quite viid in your in your mind I remember I remember the bus from Penny Hill to uh to Twickenham U getting the police escort and stuff like that and pretty cool to be honest um sitting

Sitting on the bus and just you know I was really excited just wanted to get on the pitch to be honest um you know I was playing great rugby and I was um very confident so yeah I just wanted to get out there and mom and dad must have been

CH a bit yeah I think so yeah I think so you think so you didn’t talk about it your dad must have been no no they they obviously came to the game he’s not a rugby man I’m sure he’s become one yeah he is he is now yeah but no he was

Cricket and football yeah being from the West Indies here so yeah he loves it but he must have been thrilled yeah yeah everyone was was incredibly proud um you went to the 2011 World Cup in your early 20s yeah uh uh I remember um that talk largely because you got an

Awful lot of media scrutiny there a lot there’s a lot of stuff going on yeah that was attracting press attention yeah uh how did you find that period how did you find that pressure the scrutiny bit um when you’re you know you’re a young man you know just trying to find your

Way in the squad trying to find your way in the team I mean it’s I mean you’ve been there a while a couple of years by then but yeah but what do you remember about that period um to be honest I was relatively oblivious to the outside

Noise luckily um I wasn’t massive on social media I don’t even think I had like Instagram or anything like that then no and Twitter not really getting started yeah so I I I was thankfully Twitter was just get yeah literally um I I was relatively oblivious to it and

Obviously actually got my only ever um disciplinary uh ban I got twoe ban um from the Argentina game which was the first game so I had to sit out a couple of games right um and then and then but yeah all all obviously kicked off in terms of media and throwing midgets and

All that that kind of that kind of stuff but but gen gen genuinely like um we’d heard Ireland have been there the week before and like tore the place to the ground burnt into the ground basically and and um you know and because their media’s not you know they

Don’t mind they don’t that bothered about stuff like that no nobody even finds out about it like really we were just having a good having a good time like we we didn’t hurt anyone nobody did anything they weren’t supposed to do kind of thing um but that’s that’s the

English media it’s just uh just part of the job how did it uh how did it make you feel about you know your career in sport knowing that you got that aspect to contend with did it trouble you at all or were you like everything pretty

Relaxed about it yeah no I was I wasn’t that I wasn’t I wasn’t that fussed about it to honest like um I try not to pay too much attention to it um again just just trying to just trying to get on with my own life um honestly and and um

Yeah enjoy as much as possible really you’ve very you’ve always it seems had this kind of you talked about the ability to compartmentalize but you you you’ve also seemingly got this incredible ability to kind of keep things on a level yeah I mean is that right or or emotionally you you you don’t

Have obviously everybody everybody um you know waivers emotionally um but I’d I’d say I’m I’m a pretty stable person emotionally I understand myself quite well um and it’s why I’ve been able to play so consistently especially the last kind of five six years because I’m able to manage myself emotionally for the

Game get myself in myself in the right place to perform um so that comes naturally to you I mean there isn’t if if I if I were to sort of push a bit on the yeah you know on the laws operating system yeah what would I what would I

Get what would I learn what’s the what’s the sort of what’s the sort of methods that you you there’s obviously the ability just to kind of switch on yeah listen as you say kind of respond to advice and coaching yeah what are the other

Aspects um I I guess I’d say it it does come quite naturally because it’s I i’ I’ve not um ever work with um a psychiatrist or anything like that to you not work with a sports psychologist no no um it must have been offered repeatedly yeah yeah it’s always it’s

Always been on the table but I guess because I’ve been quite um good at managing my emotions myself and I I honestly think that’s that comes from being around your dad so much and my dad being able to obviously do that um that’s really interesting and you pick

Up on that kind of that’s quite rare in the game or not I mean would you say the majority of lads are relying on that or using that kind of i’ I’d say yeah relatively and if they’re not it’s BEC because you we’ve been trying to develop um at the Saints

The ability to understand yourself going into a game and how you prepare yourself for a game so that you can perform consistently um and like I said I I think that’s that’s kind of come quite naturally to me and as I said I’ve never never really used a sports psychologist

To develop that but if if you H if you have to you should definitely um use use a use a psychologist to to develop that as a I’m saying this from a sports standpoint to develop that side of your game so that you understand yourself better and and of course I guess that

Translates to the rest of your life as well um if you can if you can manage that part of you to play rugby you can also manage it um well you’ve never needed it in rugby I’m guessing you’ve never needed it in any other aspect of your life you’ve never you’ve never

You’ve never had counseling you’re not you’re not we should make clear here you’re not saying you’re anti at all but for you you’ve not uh I I used um I spoke to sports psychologist when I was coming back from my concussion last last season right um because that was

Quite hard hard thing to come back from just to make sure that um I was okay to come back and play rugby yeah um so that that was that was quite eye opening to me and to understand how much you know just speaking to somebody who knows

About what you’re going through um can help you uh and it’s it’s very important to um you know to not be ashamed of that or to um not not be afraid to express or tell people that you that you’ve been through hard times even though you know um even though I’m

I’m I I think of myself as a quite stable person and and and somebody that can be relied on sometimes it’s okay to rely on other people yeah and it sits sort of slightly not the sports psychology bit which of course is now well established you know kind of what

You’re you’re the exception yeah yeah um but the idea of a rugby player you know opening up emotionally is a is a relatively new idea isn’t it yeah you know when the when the when the culture of rugby uh I mean it is changing and it is changing you know relatively

Relatively fast but that’s that’s a that’s a that’s more of a uh a leap isn’t it you know your game perhaps and you know a lot a lot been a lot has been made out this and some of it’s right and some of it’s wrong but just just I guess

Uh men in general talking um because you know I think men in society feel a lot a lot of I think men in society should feel responsibility to provide and protect for for themselves and their family honestly um but it doesn’t mean that you should bear the entirety of that that

Burden you should have people whether it’s your parents or whether it’s your spouse or whether it’s a psychiatrist or a therapist or whatever it whatever it is that you can share your thoughts with um so that you can deeper understand what you’re going through um what you’re

Trying to do um and where you’re at um as as a person so absolutely I mean and and the you know the extreme end of that you know where we are in terms of you know bluntly M suicide yeah exactly at a young age and also you know men in their

50s it’s something we want to talk about more as it happens but in terms of mental health in sport yeah you’ve obviously been around lads who struggled um um what has that left you sort of feeling about in terms of the support systems in rugby the culture of rugby

What else would you like to see kind of change perhaps well I mean one of those moments occurred I suppose had how did you approach them um I think I think that um again I think that um that men would actually be surprised at how willing to be open other other men are

Um so you know you kind of as I said you you you burden the yourself with the the full brunt of your responsibility but but actually everybody’s kind of doing that so if you’re just just open with each other you can share each other’s uh responsibility and honor see talking to

People just just talking just if you’ve got something on your mind and the only dialect you dialogue you’ve got is with yourself it becomes much a much heavier burden to bear whereas if you just talk to somebody about it just just open up they don’t even have to really say

Anything back but just share it get out yeah get it out it it the weight you can almost feel it lifting off you um and I think we have to give each other as as men a chance to to um to listen so I I

Give you a chance to listen to me do you know what I mean um whereas we think that you know nobody’s got time for us um or you know nobody else is going through this kind of thing but um but just give give your mate a chance to be

There for you kind of thing you know what I mean let’s talk a bit more about the injuries you touched on it a minute ago you suffered knee issues injur the disc in your back torn pectral muscles off the bone among other inj injuries uh multiple surgeries playing in pain and

And as you uh touched on most seriously in 2022 after a blow I think to the back of your head yeah um you damaged your uh vestibular system which controls your balance and coordination right pretty serious injury um you know on one level you’d say well it’s all part and parcel

Of the game um but each one of those a mini crisis for you I mean on a couple of occasions there I’m guing wondering actually is just the beginning of the end yeah yeah definitely you know in terms of my playing career yeah yeah definitely especially the um the

Concussion one that was yeah it took me a long time to to kind of get back from um but yeah I mean injuries injuries especially you know your your pecs and your knees and that kind of stuff um uh unfortunately part pass of the rugby uh

Is a tough Sport and nobody gets through it without without um having some form of uh rehability realation to do so um we we have to understand that um and you have to know the risk going into the game um and those moments what approach would you take how again the

Conversation the kind of you knowy laws operating system honestly the anytime I’ve ever had an injury all all I’ve ever wanted to do is come back a better player um and that that’s been definitely one of the things interesting that so don’t just get back get back

Better yeah yeah 100% that isin which is a lesson for crisis yeah I guess yeah I guess um but yeah genuinely um whenever I’ve been injured I’ve been determined to come back a better stronger faster or whatever it is depends on where the injury is obviously but there’s always

Stuff you can work on um you know for for your return to play that’s interesting so that’s opportunity from crisis yeah it is very much yeah so how would you approach that give me give me an example of when you’ve done how you and how you improved your game I mean

When you’ve got that pretty serious injury a couple of years ago you know which is which is very significant how did you is that the one talking about I’m when you your head yeah I mean how did you ID where what was the opportunity you identified and what did

You do about it well for one I can actually my entire entire body was functional so you know when you do your knee you can’t do your legs for you know six weeks or whatever it is you can’t you can’t train your legs you can’t

Um um do this and that when you do your PE you know you’re body suffers and that kind of stuff so strength condition is obviously massive for rugby um and it’s definitely something I I’ve used to become a better player and while I was out of my head I could actually still

Chim just fine so I got myself actually really strong um really fast um well for me really strong and really fast um and Powerful to ready to come back and start playing again um and and and yeah that that’s kind of um yeah what’s what’s kept me

Developing as a player so that when I’ve been injured which is obviously more way more than I’d like to have been um I’ve still been able to um you know uh hit the ground running when I’ve return um uh Courtney 2020 you found yourself um dealing with a different issue yeah um

Uh that also required resilience but resilience of a different nature as I hinted at in the in the intro you came under you know in my view totally unwarranted um pretty vicious personal attacks when as so often these days you dared to give an honestly held opinion yeah a perfectly reasonable opinion um

On Twitter um just tell us what happened uh yeah I mean um Marcus rashford um I just secured um I think it’s food food stamps for um you know under privilege making sure people didn’t go hungry basically and I I thought that was obviously fantastic um but I thought we

Could also it might be uh good idea to talk about you know a few of ways people get themselves in that position um and trying to trying to solve or help that issue as well honestly I don’t don’t think I timed it well and um probably

Worded it quite poorly as well but um but yeah I landed myself in a bit of trouble but what did you say um I from memory I said someone along the lines you know I congratulated him on on what i’ done genuinely for it was a great

Thing and then amazing campaign yeah it really was um it really was yeah and then and then I said now we should probably start talking about um being financially stable I think I said um you talked about you talked about the importance of family yeah and you talked about the importance of being

Financially stable and I think I said and Mar and possibly or preferably married before you decide to have kids yeah yeah so in your mind what were you uh which perfectly reasonable point to make right not not least cuz it’s it’s your opinion in your in your you know

That’s your opinion and fair enough indeed but what what um what was in your mind when you when you sort of sent the Tweet what were you thinking you know I mean this this is something you felt pretty strongly about yeah yeah yeah of course of course and it’s something

Again that that kind of made sense to me for from my experience and also looking at the data um that you know people or children growing up with um married parents do much better in life um and therefore hopefully won’t need um food stamps and and whatever else um to to

Kind of um get through life so you know we can we can um help the people who are in the situation whilst trying to um help people prevent it prevent yeah exactly stop people from getting in the situation in the first place yeah yeah it’s interesting that you um felt uh

That you this was an issue that you wanted to you want it to say something about yeah yeah right this been had this been sort of you know bubbling away for you for a while was it something that you’d you f actually I’ve been talking about this

Amongst my mates and you know I just this is something this is a view that I feel for quite some time why wouldn’t I want to share it now what was the because it wasn’t any Intent no it was it’s just this is what I think yeah and

I and I definitely didn’t I did didn’t think it’d um you certainly W being critical of Marcus rashford no no I definitely didn’t think it’d get as much uh attention as it as it did to be honest um it was just um a tweet that I thought you know we could actually try

And get to the the again the the core or you know one of the one of the cores of the issue here um and obviously yeah of course you talk about with you with your friends and your family and all that kind of stuff and um i’ I’d always been

You know quite willing to give my opinion I’d used to it a few times um just to just to try and get my opinion out there because I think a lot of times um especially that kind of opinion is very much shunned nowadays yeah um and I and

I really don’t I really I’m really not bothered if you if you want to hate and and a lot of people you know didn’t didn’t enjoy that tweet but um well it’s just an understatement again uh it was a bit more than that wasn’t it as is the

Nature of of of Twitter you know there were people demanding that you should lose your job there were people writing to Northampton saying that you should be fired yes I mean Madness yeah yeah how did that how did you how did you feel about that it was it was quite eye

Opening on on a in a lot of ways because um I found it I found it so ironic that um there’s people that that feel like they they stand on this pedestal because they support a certain view or they think a certain way and they think they are you know very good people

Because of this opinion but they will try and get you fired you I got four kids um I’m got a family to look after and I’m the main um bread winner yet they’ll try and destroy that bring that down because just because I’ve said something that they don’t

Like um I found that really eye opening um and and they think they’re you know they’re good people for doing that so I think better they think they’re better people better people better people for doing that so I think that these these kind of people need to have actually have a think about

Um why that is and and what why they they feel that way so so strongly that they should destroy or try to destroy somebody’s life because they’ve just because they’ve said something that they they don’t like well this is what I love courney because you’re talking about it what a lot of

People would have would have how a lot of people would have reacted to this is oh my god look what I’m getting you know I’m sure that there were people around you as well saying this is this is not good yeah yeah sponsors right commercial the commercial world of course I bet it

Was sticky yeah U but not only did you you know you’ve accepted that the timing probably wasn’t great maybe your wording could have been better but the central message of what you’re saying you’ve absolutely stood by and you’re sat here now talking about it you know perfectly

Happily that’s what I love yeah because there’s not enough of that yeah of course people once they’re under attack being able to say well this is what I think and this is the problem that we have right that our ability in ability to sort of disagree agreeably yeah this

Idea that disagreeing also is not enough but there’s got to be some form of punishment of course or retribution and that’s it that’s that’s a massive Point that’s a massive point we’re never we’re never going to agree on everything as a as a society as as people but you know

We we can disagree without hating each other um and and you know better yet we can find Common Ground kind of thing so yeah that that that’s the massive thing for me like we haven’t we haven’t got to be enemies uh saints were uh thankfully very supportive weren’t they uh yeah

They were really good um any grief from elsewhere we in sport I mean was there uh was it tricky no no no it it was okay it was okay um I lost one sponsor over it but I kind of gained another um Adidas were great and the sponsor that

You lost yeah what did they say to you uh they just said they didn’t want that kind of um heat basically um and your reaction to them is what it is you what I mean it is what it is it is what it is I they didn’t they didn’t necessarily

Fire me but they were going to extend my contract and they they didn’t so but it’s interesting who runs towards the gone far and who runs away yeah no it is it is it is indeed uh but no SS a great guy called Tim pural was was on um on

Comms um and yeah he was the one picking up the emails and whatnot and and saying that you know is entitled to his opinion because yeah we had a few strongly worded emails saying that I should lose lose my job and shouldn’t be allowed around children apparently um yeah so

Just astonishing but on the on the flip side of that I actually got actually not that astonishing we see this too often don’t we yeah but on the flip side of that I got inundated with positive messages as well a lot of handwritten letters um and stuff like that and and

Emails and and things like that supporting me as well so you know there’s there’s uh yeah there’s negative side of it but there there’s also people out there that that obviously obviously feel the same yeah but what I love courney as I say is that youve stuck

With it this idea of promoting stable families you know however that family is made up yeah which is your Clear View yeah exactly is the key uh and that is something that you’re talking about from experience as we’ve touched on already yeah why can’t you have that opinion um

Rugby Sports um has faced is facing a number of challenges um racism first in the wake of like you know all sport in the wake of black lives matter um you took a clear view interestingly that surprised some I think in deciding not to take the knee when there was

Incredible pressure to sort of do so because you felt that it was a divine Ive gesture yeah yeah well I um I I don’t know for whatever reason I’d I’ve been quite aware of the kind of black lives matter organization or whatever it is um and and what they kind of stood for

What you know see their website and the kind of things they’re uh they’re pushing is certainly not a stable family um it’s quite the opposite so yeah I I knew I knew that taking a knee was was um promoting even if you didn’t want to promoting uh the black lives matter

Organization and and when you when people see that and they want to um you know make a change and and obviously um generously give um give their their harder money they will go to that organization and give that money to them and we’ve seen now what that money’s

Gone towards and and um it certainly wasn’t what everybody thought um was was was was what they were going to G to put it towards that’s so interesting so when the issue first emerged or was first discussed in the you know in the club

Yeah um or in Camp yeah yeah you you you pointed all that out yeah yeah very much very much yeah I guess fortunately had prior knowledge of of what that of them and what what they about as an organization and and and yeah in in terms of values it it was the complete

Opposite and not the easy decision though that no definitely and and you knew you get flank for it right yeah yeah of course of course but again I I’m always going to stand by what I think and I actually we wanted to be unified as a club right so we wanted either

Everybody to take the knee or or kind of nobody and um the only way you could really do that is to to tell people but I was quite adamant that we we made this the decision for people to to make not um not you have to stand up or you

Have to take the KNE because if I were to if they were to say to me you have to you have to kneel down um before the game I would have said no and I think that if somebody absolutely wanted to knil before the game that they should be

Allowed to yeah but they should have all the information first right um so so yeah that’s that’s just how we went about it um yeah um another issue um uh for rugby last week um a study um I think it was from a number of universities actually combined Winchester Nottingham Trent Bournemouth

It described rugby as a form of organized child abuse um they argued for removing intentional collisions in in kids rugby but actually when you read the report really what they’re arguing for is the end of rugby I think certainly in schools um your view yeah that on that on that report I

Suppose I’m in a really good position to talk about it because I’ve got two six-year-old boys who play rugby and I’ve got an 8-year-old boy who’s just started contact rugby right um so I I haven’t read the report unfortunately yet I only just heard about it yesterday um so I don’t know

Exactly where the the information has come from in their studies and what what they’re talking about and why unfortunately but from from my standpoint so my six-year-olds don’t even do contact yet they’re not even playing touch they will not play touch till next season MH uh as tag sorry not touch um

So it’s still a non-c contct sport for them um and Teddy who’s eight who’s just started playing contact this year um I’ve been to see the vast major over his games and um if you’ve been to a kind of under eights or nines or whatever um game of rugby you you quickly realize

That these kids don’t actually have the speed and power and strength to do serious damage to each other it’s a pack of kids running literally group and the furthest they run into each other from is about a meter because they’re so tightly packed in yes so I’ve not seen a head injury

This season um whilst whilst watching my little boy and they absolutely love the game you know they’re tackling safely and that most importantly they’re learning to cackle safely um while they’re almost unable to really hurt each other um which is fantastic and that’s what you want you want your kids

To be able to learn how to do this thing effectively that is dangerous while put themselves in the in the least while they’re in the least amount of danger doing it because you know they’re not big and strong enough to actually to actually really hurt each other but if

You if you didn’t do contact until they were 16 and then just went go and these giant rapid 16y olds are running at each other having no tackle experience or technique car crash it’ be absolute Carnage out there yeah my Lads have played rugby well my 14-year-old plays a

Lot of rugby at the moment the standard of coaching I mean he’s very luy to be you know terrific club and a school that you know that that takes it rugby very seriously but the the responsibility of the coaches is is a heavy responsibility and and I’ve only ever seen that taken

Seriously professionally you know you know they’re they’re they’re on it the the kind of system that sits around rugby no one can argue that it’s perfect no um but he’s pretty comprehensive and in my experience as a parent very responsible yeah and we also we have to

We have to get kids active we absolutely have to you know obesity is is becoming a real problem in the UK is in the US and um and the more we can get our kids um out there playing sports being active the the better it transfers into their

Later life so the report in essence is saying that there should be less rugby in schools actually I think the message that sits under there should be no rugby in schools you feel very strongly there should be more rugby in more schools yeah I I I particularly State schools

Right yeah exactly so I I want to I want to push you know as many sports as we can obviously you cannot play every sport in school that’s that’s impossible there’s so many sports but we can introduce many more Sports into into into schools especially State schools I

Went to NSP and as I said I would have never play rugby if I didn’t go there and and how much potential are we really wasting um as a as a as a nation just by not not giving the CH these kids an opportunity to go out there and become

Something um and and grow into better people um in in in the long run and therefore better me members of of society so um yeah it it it it really does um it really does make such a big difference in so many different ways from a health mental health standpoint

And also um the ability vales right the the importance of teamwork which sounds like an easy sort of thing to say in it means a lot and community and Community like a lot of these different sports have have communities within themselves that you can be a PA of and

And you know loneliness is such a such a big thing nowadays um and it’s because people and able to get out there and and enjoy um other people’s company and participate in something um that you’ve got a common goal in you know we touched on Race but actually it’s the sort of

Socioeconomic imbalance I suppose in the sport that you seem to be far more interested in far more passionate about yeah and look um you know people who want for whatever reason more um diversity in in sports and you know know from my standpoint it kind of goes both ways

So um diversity is is um everyone including white people so a lot of people would be happy to have a team of no white people but what I’m saying is diversity is everybody having an opportunity to go and do and play the sport that they want to play and if you

Open that up to every social economic sector then you will have much more diversity in in these places where you where you want to see it and and ultimately you’ll get the best product the best people in these places um and and that is is is not only

Good for sport it’s good for society and it’s uh and it’s good for the people involved in it this is the center for social justice report that you were involved in um Game Changer uh High highlighted the role sport plays in transforming you know young people’s lives Sports interventions reduce

Offending by 52% we touched on you know touched on that earlier participation in sport shown to increase underachieving pupils numeracy skills by 29% kids from the least affluent families are the least likely to be active this is the stuff that you’re that you’re interested in this is this

Is the this is the stuff that you feel that we can we can move the dial on yeah the conversation’s in the right place can really leverage Sports to get the best out of our kids as well you know like um America do it relatively well

Whereby um you know if if you’re um on the football team say you’re a starting quarterback you will lose your position unless your grades are good enough kind of thing so it it really can be used as a vehicle to do um to do great things um and make

Sure that everybody is is getting the education um and the things outside of sport that they that they really need as well Cy can we um can we talk a little bit about leadership yeah um um as England Captain 21 and 22 winning trip to Australia yeah um what kind of

Captain were you um I’d say I was a pretty uh lee by example kind of kind of Captain I like to not talk too much to be honest um and I think if you’ve got a good excuse me um kind of group around you see you can’t just have a skipper

Especially nowadays you want a kind of leadership group to to pull the team in the right direction if you got the right people around you as as a skipper you don’t necessarily have to do too much talking either um and I was really fortunate to have that um on on the

Australia tour my leadership team um the leadership team was uh me Jack null Ellis gen Jano and Farrell um so we had really quite a balanced um group of players there that all had their own um attributes to to put into the team uh put into that leadership group and and

So we were able to bring the best out of out of the team and the link between captain and Coach is also key and the different type of personalities that they might be yeah yeah definitely you were Captain under Eddie Jones who’s not afraid to give an opinion who’s not

Afraid to talk un imagined yeah yeah definitely definitely so the fact that you took a slightly different approach you sort of complimented each other in a way I I think I think so I think so I think that um yeah a a good balance is generally uh what’s best but at at the

Same time um having a good relationship is probably more important than that in terms of the captain feeling like he’s able to express his opinion to the coach and what he actually feels um and what he thinks is best for the team ultimately and then to come because it’s

Never going to be quite the same as what the what the coach thinks is is best but to be able to come to a compromise and you’re partly translating him as well aren’t you yeah yes sort of you know it’s it’s very it’s very important that the team um feels

And sees the captain and um the Dr and the coaching staff and I guess the leadership group as well all pulling in the same direction makes it very easy to follow may very easy to to get behind and and be a part of um do you think you’ve grown as a

Leader throughout your career and if that’s the case I think we can probably agree that it is uh how would you how would you describe the sort of change in you as a leader over your Years playing yeah I don’t know I suppose it just kind

Of happened over time and as I said I was very lucky to play um you know to play for Saint I play for got my first C for Saints when I was 18 got my first C for Inland when I was 20 so I I played really high level rugby from quite young

Um and that experience just kind of build you up as a leader you see you see things you learn from them um you you can begin to understand um what works and what does and and you have experience that you can call fall back on and call off of kind

Of thing to um um to to to learn for the future basically um you’ve talked about your ability to listen learn act on it yeah what have you taken from other leaders give me give me give me give me give me some examples of where you’ve

Kind of which we all do right is borrow from other experiences that you’ve had yeah yeah definitely I think one of the one of the best Skippers I ever had I think most people would would agree um was when Dylan was was was Skipper under

Ready um and he was Captain for you know the 18 the 18 game um streak and and you know everything that went went with that and unfortunately he just missed out the the World Cup because of his knee um but he he was very much um again a kind of lead by example

Leader maybe maybe not the same as me whereby he was much more of a kind of work rate um player um and you know do the nuts and bolts stuff really really well uh kind of leader um and he led by example through that but ultimately um he every every person in

The in the team knew that he had the teams and the boys in the team’s best interest um at heart um he wasn’t afraid to challenge Eddie even when he you know Eddie was um peak of of kind of you know being a challenging uh coach he wasn’t

Afraid to to take one on the chin um and you know wear one for the team um Courtney you’re still flying as a player your Northampton contract um I think I’m right in saying that you were you were a Premiership player of the month you know a few weeks ago December

Yeah December yeah um your Northampton contractor expires in June you’ve been a one you’ve been a one club man um so some interesting options on what comes next what he imagines given your given your form no yeah no definitely um and it’s such a far cry

From kind of last season where I could barely stay on the pitch and you know so your your uh your opportunities kind of plummet unfortunately uh but you know I was able to make it work with Northampton last last last season uh we came to an agreement so I could so I

Could stay and and at least give the club um a good season out myself and I I didn’t know when I was signing the contract last year if I was even going to continue playing after after the season we’re in now um so I just wanted to have one potentially last good season

With the club kind of thing um and now look we we’re we’re in talks again and obviously I’ll always I’ll always be a Northampton Saint at heart and that will that will always factor in regardless and I’ve I’ve always um I’ve always made you know I guess taken less

Money to stay at the Saints um because it’s where I wanted it’s where I want to be and at the same time um the Saints have you know it’s not like the Saints haven’t paid me well or whatever so um we’ve always been able to to come to an

Agreement um and it’s been a rare thing in sport it is rare thing is a really really rare thing so as I said look I’ll always be I’ll always be a say and that that will definitely factor into it but at the same time um I’m you know well

Into getting to the end of my career now um this is almost certainly going to be the last contract I do um and I have to definitely for one get what I’m worth um and and two make sure that my family is in the best position and and I in the

Best position I can be in you know financially for the future and for for post rugby um it’s not impossible of course you stop playing for England it’s not impossible you that a lions no P up it has happened there have been players either who’ve not yet been

Capped or have been at the other end who who I think I’m right in saying who’ve played for the Lions yeah I think so in in your mind look it’s it’s it’s a long way away and every everyone’s talking about it now and and look I I have no

Doubt if I if I stay on the pitch and stay fit that I will continue to perform and and hopefully improve because I’m always I always want to improve um but I can’t say I’m expecting to get Alliance call up with him out of really good B

Road this this um in in the UK and Ireland at the minute so um look I I would of course I’ll go of course I would uh I’d be a fantastic um you know honor another fantastic honor for me um but I cannot say that I am expecting to go to be

Honest fair enough so beond rugby um you’re writing as a columnist for the times now fantastic new column um coaching not an option for you you don’t think no um politics seems to be the obvious choice think politics oh man I mean I joke but my God

We need people who are prepared to have an opinion and stick to it yeah know because you do that you have an opinion and you stuck to it yeah I mean it’s look don’t get me wrong I’m not going into politics um but I I wish that we

Just had some more people who who have experienced life as um as an you know a citizen of the UK um and that are able to you know to stand on on their word and and deliver what they say they’re going to and have a bit of Pride about

It you know it’s not complicated yeah stop stop apologizing um you know we’re we’re we’re a proud country um and and we should be and we should we should we need somebody that’s going to stand up and and say I will not apologize for being English and and this is what I

Want want to this is what I want to do you know we need we need real leaders uh real people that are going to stand up and um and actually make a difference and actually Serve the People um that elect you into Power because uh we don’t

We don’t get enough of that nowadays it seems like getting into office is just about staying in office it’s not about actually it’s not about actually um you know doing your job which is to um yeah to provide for the people Coury I can hear people applauding yeah you’re on the March yeah

Yeah yeah get get a mar look thanks so much for giving us your time today it’s been a great conversation it’s really appreciated if you’ve enjoyed this conversation with Courtney please do give us a rating and a review it really helps if it’s five stars all the better

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