Air Combat Sim Episode 43: Heatblur F-4E with CEO Nicholas Dackard

In this episode, Casmo, Tricker, BD and RG talk with Nicholas Dackard, the Founder & CEO at Heatblur Simulations to discuss the upcoming F-4E module.

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I know the F18 though aircraft K all the time well he’s hanging out in the ready room that’s gonna be ready in two weeks that’s I’m still there just room not ready my wife comes up what are you doing I’m in the ready room shut

Up waiting on the boys to get back yeah yeah no one’s here yet just shut up you’re going to ruin it Rob’s the only one in the ready room though I’m waiting on my friends yeah I I do have friends I do have them Eastern group now turning cold Angels 12 boy no

Western Group 2 okay I redash cop clear clear to kill clear to K let’s come hard Left right There hey everybody welcome back to the air combat Sim podcast episode I will insert the number later in post editing cuz I do not know but we have all The Usual Suspects which has taken as usual forever for us to form you know Voltron and put all the parts

Together but Happy New Year and belated Merry Christmas to each of you happy New Year everybody thanks for uh sticking with us um we just completed our interview with Nick from heat blur uh so we’ll be sharing that here in a few minutes but I thought we could also just kind of catch

Up and see what everybody’s been up to uh particularly in the world of combat flight simulation uh so tricker I know you sort of took a little bit of a Hiatus for a little bit it seemed from playing DCS which I think is healthy I think we all

Have to do that particularly those of us who fly for real life and as you and I discussed before like sometimes the last thing you feel like doing coming back from a trip is pretending to do work basically yeah uh but it seems like you’re getting back into it that took

About a five month four to five month break and it really it was good yeah it was it was pretty long man I took a nice break and was just playing other games and having fun with other people and you know trying to reach out to other

Communities and it was fun but I’m back and I’m back flying you know the F-15 and looking forward to the F4 yeah we played little F-15 the other day on stream didn’t we I forgot about that about a month ago that that was about a

Month ago now yeah still but no the F-15 is awesome I love the F-15 the only thing I don’t like about the F-15 is the targeting pod like I don’t know I feel like I can’t tell what anything is on the targeting pod I see like a different

Pi pixel and I’m like all right that’s a that’s a Target it’s it’s dooky um but by Design I don’t say that like they did a bad job on it it looks like what it’s supposed to look like but it’s an older generation so yeah it is tough to kind

Of figure out the lightning you got the lightning is going to be better and it’s done yeah so it’s coming sure oh yeah I’ve never heard that before I’m sure it’s right around the corner uhoh oh okay look ah Dam it put your freaking phone down

What the hell is that weird what is that that’s the weirdest porn I’ve ever heard wow who is that this Joe Kid Rock that was his BOS that was his boss calling why are you drinking at work sorry guys brother-in-law so yeah that’s impressive oh okay um brother

Mute I got podcast to do put your damn phone down so so so lightning will be out in a few weeks um two weeks I yeah I two weeks and I’m I am looking forward to some more advanced weapons with the F-15 in in the air to ground world I don’t

Know if do you have anything on that like Mavericks let’s get Mavericks isn’t it it’s getting yeah I mean later on not now but I don’t think it’s been used by US Air Force but it’s capable of doing so so it’ll be there I really like the I really like

The F5 it’s just a it’s a fun aircraft and I really enjoy the terrain following and yeah well it sort of bridges that Gap like we were just talking about with heat blur it it it’s it’s not analog but it it has sort of a analog feel in some

Ways you know I yeah I I enjoy it I I think it’s a lot of fun so you’ve been playing it then Rob I have and which is surprising yeah right never plays he’s a he’s a Navy guy through and through I know the F18 though he on the aircraft car all the

Time well he’s hanging out in the ready room that’s going to be ready in two weeks that’s I’m still there just room not ready my wife comes up what are you doing I’m in the ready room shut up waiting on the boys to get back yeah

Yeah no one’s here yet just shut up you’re going to ruin it Rob’s the only one in the radio room though yeah I’m waiting on my friends yeah I I do have friends I do have them so so what were you going to say

Rob oh no I was going to say that what’s been fun has been my you know in the whole thing uh with my kids they’re nine now and I can’t believe they’re still growing I thought they would stop at some point but but they actually they

Like they walk up and they go hey can I fly and I put them in there and they’re pretty good and I was like oh you know you got to do the throttle so that the wind go you know you get more speed my yeah I know the wind goes over the plane

Lifts gives it lift and just like tell me to shut up yeah I know I know I know but boy I’m telling you they’re growing they’re having a good time on the the DCS I know how it works Dad yeah wait till he’s about to turn 18 like

Mine they know everything every goddamn thing there is to know yeah um yeah the F-15 I well I mean and I think some of you guys know this I I actually joined one of those virtual squadrons because I enjoyed the F-15 so much and the problem I have is I like to

Play multiplayer I don’t I don’t like to just fly around by myself um and so these guys at the 51st had reached out to me a while ago and they wanted me to join and the schedule just wasn’t good I was like I don’t have time for this but

I’d been thinking about it and so I they actually talked to me again on stream and I said you know what all right I I’m going to just do it so I’ve joined them and I’ve gone through some of their training things and gone on a couple of

The missions uh but it’s it’s added a lot of enjoyment to DCS for me to do that because it’s it’s one it’s not me having to build everything which I kind of felt like it was but uh two you know and it’s not like overly structured like

They have training you know and they have sort of positions but it’s not like mil Sim type stuff where it’s like you know call me sir you know and crap like that I’m 15 you’re going to call me like I was like I’m out the first time I see

Any of that crap but it’s been none of it um but it’s been a good experience overall so uh for those who are kind of out there looking for the multiplayer environment you’re looking for just a little bit kind of more I don’t want to say next level but a little bit more

Organized type stuff I mean look into like the 51st or some of those other groups that are out there um because it does add a different flavor I’ve been looking at uh you know I met these guys a while back at the vert uh from the

Virtual Arm Forces and I did that one episode with them and they’re fantastic it’s just got to get the time to do it you know and again not not so serious about it and they’re super nice guy I mean really nice my wife had some surgery it was very uh I didn’t

Appreciated she she you know gallbladder I’m like how rude of you to have a gallbladder problem during the holidays these guys were super nice they reached out and everything else but even if my wife is rude about it and I you so but yeah no I I if you’re

Interested um you know there’s definitely some good groups out there to uh sign up with no and Rob’s wife is not in none of them so no no she’s not she’s GNA meet me in the ready room I told her to meet me in the ready

Room and and BD what are you what are you working on catchup session what’s the newest campaign I’m still working on the gamblers the F-16 one which is almost finished but it’s still not uh but like the real life like it it sucks cuz it takes lots of time that you normally

Would have for DCS if it weren’t for real life but I’m getting there I’m getting there what that’s for the that’s for the cola M right yeah no col up is Syria gamblers Syria col up is another one it’s it’s getting together nicely the col up is really cool uh and we’re

Doing with the reflected so I’m doing the F18 for the like finish Air Force and reflect is doing for F16 for the US Air Force and it’s going to be fun it’s going be out next month right to we that’s cool that you guys are that’s cool that you guys are working together

Though no he is a great guy I really love him I mean I’ve talked to him a couple times he seems like a really nice guy yeah gre’s cool doing great no homo I haven’t heard that in Forever wow that made it all the way to that made it all the way to

Europe we used to say that all the time yeah no homo man man I haven’t heard that in a long time sorry so so about the about the game you were the last person sorry so uh Gambler so uh it’s with uh rain and and I was because and a lot of these

These missions are based on his you know the missions that he flew right that he took notes on so it’s like we we kind of split it so first seven missions are based on his experience and then we did do like a second deployment which is

2017 and we do very nice missions like interesting stuff that happened really really then like two years after he he was there so it’s kind of all is based on real life stuff but it’s it’s kind of in two different or separate parts I was chatting with him I said man

You need to get with BD and actually record some episodes where you’re actually talking about um the things that happen to go along with uh the campaign I thought that’d be great yeah that that’s a plan I think we’ll do it at some point what’s the next campaign that you’re going to work

On after those two I think it’ll be the Raven one part three which should be a trading campaign for the F18 we do with uh hoser and jell it’s going to be fun so the idea is to do it like you know I did the Aon fight for A10 but it was not

Really realistic because the instructor pilot Tech talking to you all the time which doesn’t happen and then we’re thinking how can we do it and and jel says well I I used to talk to myself all the time in the cockpit so the idea now

Is just to have the play talk to himself on what to do next like yeah it’s your inner monologue exactly and then it’s it works fine it’s nice okay I do that all the time exactly you can you can do it you can do a

Tricker I do it too and and it weirds the captain out every time just weirds them out like okay now I’m going to go vertical speed he’s like what are you doing over there hold on sh talking yeah just talking to myself fly the banana yeah start saying saying Lin from Top Gun

Right yeah you saw that they were doing a Top Gun three yeah it’s going to fun probably I don’t know I don’t know where they’re going to go but yeah it’s going to be where they kill them I thought I thought it be like the space force or something where they kill

Him kill Maverick no he’s gonna fly as P-51 it’ll be that’ll be the scenario because last time it was like we can’t use a fifth generation fighter because because McGuffin and now it’ll be even bigger McGuffin and the only way we can do it is now we get he has to be retired

Cuz he’s goddamn 80 and like well he’s got a P51 I think they wi Jun back get him back Jun it’s gonna be aliens come in to invade and then Tom Cruz goes in his P-51 because it’s the only jet engine aircraft that’s not yeah they’re going to EMP somehow and Destroy Everything

Absolutely and then he’s said we should be on the marketing team onun are already made we should make a movie yeah we should make a movie and then they’ll kill him yeah and then they’ll kill him no um I’m sure it’ll be visually stunning all right well we do

Have the interview that we should lead into with Nick from heppler talking about the F4 talking about the A6 very slightly and uh just having a good time so enjoy9 welcome to the show and tell us a little bit about yourself and what’s going on

Thank you um yeah I’m Cobra uh Nick U founder CEO of heler I guess that’s the fancy title um we’ve got a bit of a zombie Cobra SL Nick with you today uh we’re right in the uh runup towards release candidate builds so um long hours long

Days long nights lots of coffee um and and uh I think that’s about it we’re just grinding away at uh trying to build some cool experiences and hopefully we’ll manage uh how long have you guys been working on this though um good question uh coming up on three years now

I think maybe something like two and a half I would have to take a look in the calendar and exactly to exactly tell you though it’s also a little bit hard to pinpoint because we we kind of staffed up for this project so beginning you know two people and now we’re something

Like five six people full-time employees working on it so uh and that probably happened somewhere about a year and a half in where we were at like full rate production um it’s ebbed and flowed uh the Ukraine War uh actually kind of cut the staff working on the project in half

For quite a while um these kinds of things have happened during the project so it’s AB been flow but about 2 and a half to three years how long did it take to work on the F14 about also very difficult to say uh I would say if we

Had full full rate production maybe one and a half two years maybe and then like the whole thing maybe four years something like that or four and a half um yeah that would be a ballpark figure okay so you’re still you know so we you’ve got the F4 you’ve got the F14 and

You’ve got the the vgan right and in in most cases you’re still actually working on all of them even after post post launch right yeah and then and as far as in terms of your effort like for example I saw a few weeks ago I think people

Were a little bit frustrated when they were waiting for um the tarps pod to come out on the F14 but um was it going to besides the fact it was going to show up there what it was it supposed to do anything uh not in this initial release uh it but we we

Are we have uh we’re working on the gameplay layer to it right now we have in the vgan we have something called the elent kind of system that we did way way back where you kind of can fly around and your pod will triangulate the locations of Radars and stuff like that

Um for the tarps we’ll do something like um I’m not sure how much of this will actually make it in but we’ll do something like um uh you’ll get like a photo and we want to try and you know do stuff like you know the Intel guys have

Cirle the units uh we’ll see if that works out we might just do like a list of stuff that’s identified in the photo uh some interesting gameplay stuff like that where it actually makes sense to to put it on the jet fly it and then you

Can kind of brief your squadron or or whomever else uh but also in like a more if you’re just uh one person flying on a multiplayer server where you can you can do something fun with it even without feeding somebody else the Intel so uh some gameplay layer has to happen there

Uh for sure yeah sorry I took us down that road I just remember up the other day and I was like um but so as we as we look at the F4 and the F14 am I correct in that some of the systems for the F14 were combined

With the F4 or am I M um I would say the inverse so what we decided to do yeah so what we kind of decided to do was let’s create a bunch of new stuff for the F4 and let’s make the F-14 a beneficiary of those things um not all of them uh

Because we again like we we it’s really easy to get in this situation where you just spin your wheels on something you’ve already released and just keep adding stuff to it um and that’s not a bad thing for the community and people who love the aircraft and that kind of thing uh but

In the end we we have to also move forward at the same time so some of the stuff will come back from the F4 um uh and we’ve got plans for the sorry uh some of the stuff from the F4 will come back to the F14 uh and of course we’ve

Got plans for the F14 uh Beyond what it is now whether it’s a bu or a d uh whatever it is on the road map um so we’ll definitely be making quite a large effort to get as much of that over as we can so so just to just to clarify that

You are suggesting a d got him yeah I won’t commit you I’m just I got yeah just joking it’s fine it’s fine teasing everybody wants it um no yeah everybody what’s the I don’t know the difference what’s the difference um The Bu is kind of like a frankensteined but extremely capable

Upgrade of the normal B uh so you get the sparrow hawk HUD you get the big ped screen the screen in the back you get um uh Precision Munitions uh all kinds of fun upgrades GPS nav um but it’s still kind of like I guess I would describe it as kind

Of maybe the Phantom upgrade versions like the ice and AUP where you kind of take mfds and you bolt them into an old airframe it’s kind of that style of thing whereas the D is a much more comprehensive upgrade and they’ve replaced the radar and and uh most of

The avionics and and so on uh the issue with the D is the lack of data uh especially on sensors such as the irst um a lot of key pieces of data are kind of missing or very difficult to piece together in a nice way so

We’d love to do it it would be probably the you know the the it’s quite a dream project for us I would say but it’s very difficult to pull off so so what is just for the average person who doesn’t know much about any of this what is this F4

Going to bring to DCS uh very good question um in many ways perhaps nothing spectacularly new ironically perhaps I’m now I’m not selling our product very well here saying just I mean um yeah well no I mean it look all the Jets kind of all do the

Same thing so I don’t think people get hung up on necessarily A capability as much as Nostalgia I mean for me you know growing up the F4 was very cool and you know oh I don’t want to fly that when I grow up uh so you got the rule of cool

Already going for you but just in terms ter of capabilities and what it does and there’s been a lot of discussion that you know I think Enigma said the the way forward for DCS is to go backwards and I agree with that like let’s go back in

Time and explore that stuff because the opportunities to do cool stuff in something like an F4 in that era is in my opinion greater than the people that like oh I want F35 like well why what to do what like that that sounds very boring to me whereas F4 it sounds like

You really got to get into some some hair raising adventures with it so so in terms of that it is something new but I just talk about like what it does specifically as a module and what kind of you know neat tricks obviously it’s going to be multi cre right yeah

Absolutely I’m I’m I’m half joking obviously um with with it that it doesn’t actually bring anything I mean first and foremost I think it brings uh the experience of flying probably the the very end of that pure an anog kind of era of of jet fighter and especially the most complex

Type where uh even we get have been surprised frequently at the complexity of the F4 actually and how intricate and deep some of the systems are despite not being uh very computerized um and that brings with it actually quite a lot of challenges uh it’s it’s a difficult to

Use an employee airplane I would say in comp comparison even to something like the F14 we’ve done um it’s using the radar you know that those funny images people put up of interpret the smudges kind of stuff they’re all very true uh it’s it’s very much like that and I

Would say that the gap between kind of skilled operators and non-skilled ones will be even bigger than uh than for something like the F14 uh it’ll really be quite a large difference between the people who are really proficient especially as a crew uh with wizo and

Pilot uh versus the the guys who just fly it now and then and and kind of you know go into some of the simpler modes so it really brings that U that really end of that era and you really start actually even in the Sim you start realizing why more computerized systems

And more um uh kind of automated things became the norm because you you you even in the Sim you start running into limitations of uh kind of crew proficiency uh so to speak and and task saturation or however you want to call it so um I think that’s that’s probably

The most fun aspect of it and then you know it’s it’s it’s just a visceral experience uh to some degree um if you’re prone to motion sickness in VR don’t fly in the wizzo seat in multip multi crew cuz you it’s the vomit Comet at that point you don’t see anything up

Front you know the world spinning around you um that’s interesting yeah so so I even got nauseous on my 2D I was developing the other day uh I had my head into a panel and I was just rolling the aircraft and I even got nauseous just from that because you don’t you

Have very little reference so um it’s it’s just an interesting experience from that point of view I think it’s just you we kind of joke that you know you should smell the aircraft and it smells like rust and old oil and and Mechanical Devices basically speaking of the multi crew uh

Are you bringing something like Jester back or there some new idea for the AI back yeah that’s a huge huge lead weight around our neck gesture Ai and having to build this uh virtual human in the back that has to do everything that a human

Can do um we really went a little bit crazy with jest AI this time uh we we kind of rebuilt him completely on a more scriptable kind of API so people can extend him themselves and we’re hoping people will create some cool functionality and contribute that but um

Overall we’re kind of aiming for the same thing as the in the F14 just that we’ve we’ve tried to think a little bit more about um how can we make him a bit more future proof um how can we because jesture in the F14 is very tightly intertwined with the aircraft um he’s

It’s and you know we were it was our first go at it and um it’s difficult I can tell you guys building AI is is is tricky as heck um but and especially under the pressure of time everything became very intertwined with the F14 so that’s something we’ve also tried to

Keep in mind this time to make him as agnostic uh of the aircraft that he’s sitting in as possible so just quick question about the uh about J so for example you guys brought that Circle together where you know uh really as the key as a UI for the interface um how did

You guys come up with that and is that going to persist into the F4 uh yeah we’ve upgraded a little bit so we’ve tried to not block as much of the screen this time around um as for the design I’m not sure what’s the saying everything in art is stolen I guess we

We just looked at some other game with a Kamar RO system and went yeah that that’s going to work I think um some of the ideas are are kind of came up during development like the one where you kind of aim at the comma rose with your head

Um those those things tend to Bubble Up especially when testers and and Outsiders get their hands on the module and uh cool ideas start coming in um yeah so this time around we’ve we’ve again rebuilt everything so we’ve also rebuilt that so now you can actually click it as well so it’s Mouse

Interactive which is something people were asking for um and hopefully this refreshed version works just as well that’s the hope at least as long as he doesn’t eject on his own he does but we’ve been uh We’ve we’ve uh we’ve tried to make it uh yeah we’ve tried to make it a little

Bit more lenient this time around delete it delete it right now while you still have the chance I don’t need him to eject I don’t care if he dies he’s not real um okay teach their own that’s fine um so the aircraft is is as you said it’s going to

Be more graduate level flying be just because the the challenges of the I mean look newer aircraft are just easier to fly just the reality of the situation um even in the civilian world trier’s seing that graduation as he goes from smaller planes and now flying the Airbus it’s

Probably a lot easier to fly than it was flying a Cessna when I fly a 300 series 737 it’s much harder to fly than the 800 um so we’re looking at aircraft that’s you said it is analog or it’s it’s got some some mfds in it is that what you

Said uh no it’s it’s fully analog this one yeah okay so this one’s fully analog um obviously not going to be fly by wire or anything like that um is it challenging to take off and land is it is it got any idio idiosyncrasies to it um I would say anyone who’s familiar

With the F14 and how that feels this is quite similar uh in that sense um but I would say it’s actually easier it’s probably people are going to probably find it overall easier um uh the the reason for that is is um it’s a slatted Wing e so they kind of

Eliminated a fair bit of the characteristics that that made it a little bit trickier to fly um uh it’s still again it’s still visceral it’s still you know Old School third gen uh powered brick so um don’t get into trouble cuz you’re going to have trouble uh so to speak um

But uh overall I think a little bit easier than the F14 uh in some respects um uh I think it’s probably a little bit trickier to employ in a combat scenario uh you don’t feel the envelope as well as you do in the F14 for example

Um I think uh a lot of virtual Pilots are going to get an r73 up their tailpipe uh from Mig 21’s and other adversaries um so it it’s it’s very interesting from that respect and I think one of the most interesting things about flying it is when you start mixing

It in with some of the kind of more modern aspects or features it has like uh laser guided bombs and the uh pave Spike targeting pod uh because you it becomes much more of a um difficult thing to handle at that point you have to really Wrangle the aircraft while

Also wrangling these very early weapons uh and targeting systems uh and that’s where where that extra layer of difficulty comes in as well so I had a question about the weapons since we’re talking about the weapons um I know the shrikes come in the Bullpup and the

Walleye are are all of these going to be available like day one and uh are we going to be able to use it together as a crew yes yes um all those should be available uh plus plenty more uh lgbs and the pace bike targeting pod and uh

Of course Mavericks and all types of bombs and other ordinance and uh Rockets rocket pods gun pods um all kinds of fun stuff fairly fairly standard and basic stuff that that folks are familiar with but um a little bit different to employ in a two two person crew some of them

For sure and then the shrike I’m kind of interested in that um isn’t like DCS or not DCS but eal Dynamics aren’t they creating that or are you guys creating that or uh they forgot what was going on with that no so we’re creating a new

Kind of ew/ rwr system for um for the F4 and parts of that will hopefully make their way into DCS as a whole um and we’ve we’ve tried to kind of increase the level of fidelity and depth to the simulation of of that side of things uh

If you will um but it’s a very broad topic as as you’re all very much aware um with a lot of things that there’s no real information on uh but it is a big part of the F4 especially because of things like the shrike where you know

You would have Seekers that would be tuned only to specific Radars or weapon systems um and so that layer of gameplay is is hopefully going to be in there um and then of course you’ve got the earlier RWS as well as in the one we’re we’re

Making here where it has you know the handoff mode and and the kind of uh sound tones uh that play through your your phones based on the prf and all the other things the radar is doing uh and we’ve tried to do as much as possible there so we’re taking into account you

Know things like the rotation of the radar is it you know you can hear it kind of rotating and spinning and um we’ve created uh a new system to synthesize all the sounds needed for that um with kind of all the Jitter and the prf and all the kind of quirky

Effects some of the some of the Radars make some some of them have very unique sounds like chirping tones and weird things happening um so we’ve really tried to uh to create something a bit more comprehensive there uh and the Shri is a part of that that’s really

Interesting because I mean um as you talked about you know like every radar has a different tone for the rwr so I would love that technology to come to other products but that’s awesome that you guys are doing that and setting the standard I guess you’d

Say yeah hopefully it turns out uh turns out good and and people enjoy it and it becomes a good solid part of of the DCS whole uh I think we always I mean we all benefit from third parties contributing to the Bas platform whenever possible uh so whenever we can

I mean it’s it’s great uh Rising tide lifts all boats so uh so kind of why not and um uh yeah there’s never any guarantees of course uh maybe we’ve made some major mistakes and everybody scrunches their nose once once it goes out there but uh but hopefully hopefully

Not uh you mentioned this is the F4 you’re the release is going to be for the F4 are is there a road map for other versions of it um yes uh there is so we’ll be doing Naval Phantom for sure but as a separate module um after we’ve

Finished the ease um the reason for that is uh there was actually a thread on Reddit just just today actually um about you know why why we’re doing that seems a little bit greedy uh but the reality is that they are very different aircraft inside um uh actually if you look at the

Cockpit uh everything except the canopy frame and the canopies you can throw that in the garbage and uh rebuild the rest just from a visual perspective I um but just from a utility perspective I mean the the the later Navy Phantoms had you know look down shoot down radar

These kinds of things that will also change the way you fly the phantom um no gun so um so it’ll just change things a fair bit um and we just want to make sure we do it justice um and just economically it’s unviable for us to do

It as one kind of package module so uh so it’ll be happening we haven’t chosen the exact versions yet but the J and S are the leading uh leading candidates because of their similarity to the e um so looking forward to that a lot

Actually I got to say I did like the way you guys did the uh pre-order for the F4 because then we get the meteor soundtrack and then a cool t-shirt so I appreciate the possibility of getting a nice cool t-shirt from you guys well thank you um I’m glad you liked it for

Sure and tricker I’m sure got a smaller size to make himself look big I did I got a smaller one to make my muscles you know pop out a little bit more very good the I was a little disappointed little disappointed there was no like briefs or

Underwear oh I’ll put that on the list for next time but I have to tell you the the souls Imperial which is the base shirt we use for for the shirts it’s a it’s a it’s a very tight cut so you’ll look absolutely fantastic um send some

Short so my belly sticks out that’s what I want that’s what I hope for CR you want a crop top for the underwear make sure for tricker to get it excess s yeah extra small extra small extra you can do that with the Intruder kind of intruder underwear well speaking

Of the Intruder what what can you tell us about that oh not much I think um it’s been it’s been a long uh long time uh coming and and we we we kind of put it at the end of the road map after all these other Phantoms and EUR

Fighters and things um and the main reason for that is that we we kind of wanted to to solidify the new gesture before we went down that road fully um uh hopefully uh that was worth it putting it at the end of the road map and dangling it in front of people for

So long and annoying everybody uh unfortunately um that’s not really intentional but um but the AI version is at least making its way to DCS uh very soon uh and that’s very important because again that’s something we’ve been promising for quite a long time um

Uh and in terms of U the module itself um we essentially are kind of through the F4 working on the base and core Technologies for everything that will go into the A6 so we’re through the F4 essentially working on the A6 in a in a

Certain sense um uh it’s still up in the air a little bit on what exact version it’ll be in the very end uh there’s some similar ones at the very end there where they would upgrade a couple of the airframes towards the end of the life and there’s a couple there’s like one

Version in particular at the very end I think only about 100 aircraft were converted in the end um I forget the name of the the version exactly but it’s the most capable one but again data becomes the the chief limitation there but if we can do it we want to because

It’s also about providing as much choice to players and as much gameplay opportunity as possible so the more weapons uh players can use um the more fun it is really uh the more gameplay hours everybody can get out of it and enjoyment uh everybody can get out of it

So um hopefully we manage to get everything we need for uh the broadest possible experience you’re saying the AI version is coming pretty soon yeah I hate to keep bouncing back and forth here but uh you know it’s always exciting to talk to you guys but the F4

One of the way one of the things I really like is uh I saw in the video where you could actually click on something and like it would bring up a manual or can you talk about that because I think that’s a pretty interesting yeah so topic yeah

Absolutely so one of the biggest and most difficult things we’ve actually done for the F4 um uh I’ll go on a little bit of a tangent but we we basically decided that we wanted to integrate some new kind of UI tech technology um into the the

Module that would allow us to do a little bit more um new features that we haven’t really been able to do before uh anything related to showing more information on the screen uh in an interactive way in particular um and uh uh so we’ll have some interactive checklists for example

Where you can cross things out not on launch but it’ll come very quickly during EA that’s just one small example of something we we haven’t really been able to do before um and the clickable manual so we uh tend to make interactive manuals these days which are just

Basically web web pages that you can search and navigate and we you know we realize well that’s a perfect use case for for for this right we can we can display our manual in game and nobody has to out tab in and out and or print

Stuff out really um and then again it’s this kind of bubbling of ideas that happens when you start adding stuff to to the product and one of the ideas was like Hey what if we have a hotkey where if you press a switch it brings you to

To that exact thing in the manual so you can immediately read about it and and it kind of clicked like we were like oh that’s a we’re doing that no matter what it takes or how long it takes we’re doing that one um uh so it’s it’s just a

Fun little thing and unfortunately this particular feature with the UI stuff has been really difficult to do and uh has put a lot of pressure on her head and added a lot of risk to the project and the finances and everything more than we ever expected so hopefully it’s

Something people will use and enjoy um I hope so at least I mean I I think so because I mean there’s a lot of times I fly the F-14 and you know I don’t fly it I know sometime you know like I fly other aircraft and then I come back you

Know a couple months later and then I forget certain things and I’m like what does this button do again and then I got to find it in the manual or find a quick you know YouTube video or you know something so that’s really that’s really helpful yeah yeah I think it’s a good

Addition from my point of view interesting question is are you going to include some kind of a campaign with the F4 training missions what’s your plans on that well I don’t know we’re discussing in a yeah um yes this is also the virtual meeting for the yeah this is all a this

Was all a trick um yeah so we’ll we’ll definitely be doing at least one campaign it won’t be available on launch unfortunately but we will have a slew of single missions and stuff in there so so there’ll be content from day one um and there’s going to be training missions too yes uh

Full Suite as usual um perhaps not for every single weapon or every single scenario but at least for for hopefully all of the basics Basics and the basic weapons and these kinds of things um that’s good cuz dcker and I need content so just do the basics excellent I mean I

Haven’t made any content in a while but yes yes looking forward to seeing some great in fact if you send us an early copy then we’ll get a whole bunch of content made for you but you anyway oh yeah it’ll happen don’t worry uh no so we’ll we’ll uh we’ll certainly have

Those things and and uh well one of the biggest things is the barrier to entry to DCs so so of course having the training missions and all these things is is is key so uh so people can learn in a in a nice way um and of course for

Missions themselves as as uh as Baltic Dragon knows um you you always want to do more and tell more interesting stories and do more Rich uh narratives in the game and you know maybe people will laugh at me but you know things like Ace Combat exist which you know

They you know you’ve got cutscenes and you’ve got uh well I’m sure we’ve all played Arma or or or you know Call of Duty and all kinds of games where cutscenes and narrative storytelling is a part of it so that’s something where we have some interesting Tech ideas we

Can hopefully push things a little bit further uh especially relating to this kind of UI Tech um I just mentioned before um that’s the hope at least so so if we can do something um more interesting and rich in in kind of the missions and the campaigns than uh then

I hope we can uh achieve that um but the base uh the Baseline will always be there for sure talking about campaigns you know you got to start up your aircraft and I noticed that you did have the simulated crew chief can you explain a little bit about the simulated crew

Chief uh sure sure uh so it’s turned into quite a a big feature uh in a certain way um which hopefully again people will find enjoyable but um the crew chief uh at a base level you will at least interact with him in order to get stuff like ground power and

Electrical power um so instead of going through the F10 menu uh you you we you go through our comma rows just like the G and you go you know he hooks up the start card and the uh and so on um and then we’ve we’ve got a fair bit of

Functionality beyond that which is modeled based on what real Crews would do um primarily things like control checks so you can run a control check with your crew chief so um you know you’ll you’ll actuate your your ailerons and your flaps and things and the crew chief will sound off whether everything

Looks good for example um uh so in general just kind of hoping for a more immersive experience during startup as well uh and you know the the idea is you you hear you’re talking to the crew chief and Jesters in the back telling you he’s aligning this and that and it

Kind of just hopefully turns into a more immersive and realistic experience of how the startup would would work in real life and again it’s it’s in a way it’s a bit of a role playing thing because the chance of your flaps not working on fresh cold start spawn are basically

None unless you have random failures on uh and you get really unlucky so so that won’t really happen um to that extent but um hopefully your emotion is increased and you’ll enjoy it and you’ll you’ll get a better understanding of what it’s like to start these aircraft

Up in real life and run the checks yeah I noticed um that you guys did like laser scanning for the whole entire aircraft can you discuss a little bit like where you did that or uh yeah we did one in Slovakia uh a German Phantom

And we did one at uh March fields in California uh uh great museum uh did we do more I think uh there’s various bits and pieces of uh F4 C’s and stuff like that for some gear stuff uh where the the E and marchfield was was a little

Bit too uh too worn down where we needed a couple of things um uh primarily the cockpit is from the marchfield California jet though uh so that’s what we’re modeling Things based off of uh primarily um the German one in Slovakia was a great example of quite a pristine aircraft so Germans

Take good care of the aircraft in the sense of uh it was baby you could tell it was pretty babied so to speak very freshly nicely painted and and and these kinds of things and they had just flown it to Slovakia and put it in they put it

Under the roof there and it’s been standing there and it’s been been fairly sheltered from the elements and all kinds of things so uh it was good to get an idea of both um the March field one is of course standing out in the desert um so it’s looks apocalyptic inside but

The Slovakian one was fairly pristine so we got a good idea of what it actually should look like and in in the end we built the whole aircraft the whole cockpit and everything and ourmes went oh that’s way too dirty anyways uh so so there was a lot of cleanup regardless uh

But uh but yeah will we will you be doing some different versions of cockpit like a worn out cockpit clean cockpit Factory cockpit uh yes we will though I won’t say too much right now because I’m not sure to what extent it’ll happen but uh I want to Yes uh definitely uh and

Hopefully it’ll tie into the kind of wear and tear and quality system that we’ve built into the aircraft where uh if you if you’re riding a warhorse it should look like one um if the glare Shield is wobbling a lot then you know you

It needs a t tuneup in the MX so to speak so you know what you should have I just thought of this this is completely stupid you should have like a little spot for like a picture but you can actually upload the picture that you want so I can have a picture of

Tricker like in his his Heat shirt like I’m inside a heart right like you do in your real airplan yeah like you like I would exactly like I do at work I just put a little picture up but I know just I thought of that no it’s like Goose tapping

Tapping uh photo of his wife there on the fuel gauge every every scene yeah well instead of like a picture you could put like one of those hoola girls oh yep and with some Physics on it or like a Funko you know something with the wobbly

Head tricker we need funkos we need our own like Channel funkos God I’m so full of good ideas it’s ridiculous I think you should be trickered by default like a tricker in every airplane [Laughter] yeah free trick and if you click on it it it auto

Directs to his his channel oh my God play some audio too a few voice lines or something perfect nice I like it see this is why the Phantom isn’t out yet this level of feature creep so I’m going to spend the next 3 days working on this

And um yeah I’ll blame you guys we actually just delayed the F4 by another 3 months just two weeks yeah for useless features um no but speaking of this you also have this new system of a pilot where you can customize the pilot right uh yeah that’s coming after we launch

Into EA because it is a can of worms and a half um um you know if you if you can choose your head then you have to change the helmet for every head uh it’s it’s miserable not change the helmet like starting a new game of Skyrim you have

To like change like the skin tone and the hair exactly he’s just standing there a Kimbo and you have to uh that’s you know I the I’m not sure how much Arma or operation Flashman you guys have played but you know one of the most fun things it’s like Barbie for men

Kind of like you you jump in game and then you’re standing there picking out hats and and vests for like three hours and then you’re like um yeah and then uh you know it’s the whole hey can you hear my gun no I can’t can you hear mine no

And somebody has failed to install some mod and it all unravels from there um but the point is it’s fun uh I think it’s really fun to be able to customize uh quote unquote your character it’s something I enjoy a lot in games uh and just like the jester dialogue wheel

Where we’re hoping to make Jester a more interactive experience where he asks you and you have a two-way dialogue with him the same way the character customizer hopefully will tap into that same thing where um it pulls in things from other games RPGs in particular so Skyrim is

Actually a great example um and I think some if you look back back in the ’90s at games like you know win commander and stuff like this like they would have a lot of these features of like other games in them and you know that’s something that flight Sims I think for

Me one of the biggest things that’s missing in Flight Sims is is that kind of thing where it feels more like a game in in certain respects rather than a sterile cockpit environment well would be a great thing to add but it’s not it it wouldn’t work with this module

Because of of eras but female voices that’s what DCS needs to add into something and we were going to do it with the Apache and I don’t know what happened with that my wife actually recorded lines for the Apache for AI and it disappeared I I would love to see but

I would love to see that you know but obviously the have before the time period it just I don’t think there was any you know female pilots flying those but um yeah some there something I back your mind if you something in the future no we we have experimented with uh using

AI actually to uh to convert the existing gesture lines into a female voice and it works shocking well it really does there’s actually people who have done it in the community too but they’ve done it Bas yeah but they’ve done it based on the compressed like we

Apply like radio effects to the voice and stuff and so they’ve used those those files right so the result is worse if we when we use like the raw files uh people can’t tell that it’s actually you we used AI for it um and it’s just test you know I’m not saying

We’re going to do it or anything we’ve just been testing around with it because it adds like a whole step to the pipeline where say we add a new voice line for Jester saying something then we have to always run it through that pipeline otherwise that voice file will

Be missing on the on the female version of Jester and so on and so on um but I think it’s I it’s a missing part of the representation a little bit uh so I it would be and it perhaps not for the F4 as much even though I think there are

Female uh Phantom Greek F4 pilots and so on uh but for the F14 in particular uh for for that Community there I think that makes a lot of sense maybe like the F4 like crew chief whether they female crew chiefs I don’t know yeah I don’t know I don’t remember I don’t remember

Good idea good idea so like instead of instead of like instead of like Wags saying like hey what are you doing you can be like hey what are you doing oh well trigger don’t press that well our crew chief is is is is not wag but but yeah course well I was talking

About the regular Eagle Dynamics you start moving the plane when you’re rearming it’s like hey what are you doing yeah classic so your back seitter in Phantom will also be called Jester or is it different no it’s just Jester um it’s just Jester and I don’t even know why I

First of all Jester came into I was I’m pretty sure I was drunk sitting alone at like 10: in the evening and like writing up the F14 announcements and I don’t know I put down gesture on the paper for whatever reason uh and it’s stuck since

Then I I think we’ll just keep it for all the modules everybody knows what it’s about uh everybody knows he’s going to eject on you and I guess that’s the uh that’s the gist of it not if you delete it I mean that’s probably one of my favorite things cuz you never expected

You’re not going to crash but he’s like hey we’re about to crash and he just jumps out and you’re like all right bye can tell you guys you’re in a convertible flying by yourself mhmed I’d like it to be an option just saying it will be it will be

Uh this time it will be okay okay all right then I’m happy I’m happy so J or casmo wants a suicidal you know he doesn’t want to eject and save himself no my the context of what I’m coming is like let’s say you’re doing a large scale event where it’s like you’ve

Planned this thing out and you take off and do something and he decides to bounce everything’s off that’s like well what now I don’t get to do this event or now we got to restart you know just kind of it could snowball so just on an Aver

Happened in real life casmo it well fair enough if I was flying with you I’d be like peace I’m out it’d be cool I mean if we’re going to go down the road he could like he could actually like he could poop his pants like there’s that audio of the backseater that craps

Himself you know and there’s like like they’re on a for ship uh we could have that too but yeah turn the heat off turn the heat yeah that’s right Mama in the back doesn’t like it when turn ding ding so it’s airline pilot humor but but

Yes getting getting a little off um we were talking about Jester can you give us like a step by step of like if you want to fight somebody like fire an a seven you know Sparrow at somebody can you give us like a step by step of

Like how that happens I can’t right now because that’s one of the things we’re doing right now kind of up until release still so it’s one of the combat capabilities that were kind of squishing in there so it’s not finalized um but it’s classified it’s classified yeah

That’s that’s right uh what I can say is that hopefully we’re successful and what I mean by hopefully is that uh again this is an analog aircraft and it is much harder to use the radar and Converse and subsequently it is much harder to code Jester to use the radar um um

And again making AIS is we’re not doing any more two seed aircraft I’m done basically that’s my that’s my conclusion on Jester and all and uh and this part no um except for the in yeah that’s a that’s a one cockpit aircraft I’ve already had this argument internally um after I said it

Uh and I said the A6 doesn’t count it’s just one long cockpit so it it really doesn’t count as a okay as part of this pain I don’t I don’t know personally but is the F4 radar worse than the F14 radar as in like it’s not as capable it’s it’s

Not yeah well yes it’s that it you know it’s a it’s a u pure doter kind of radar so it’s um and you don’t have the uh computer interface to like the tid and the F14 where you where you have a synthesized view of what the radar sees

It’s just the raw stuff raw actually yeah to be fair we’re doing the DVS sorry d scg version of the F4 which I lied it does have some digital avionics the F this F of the F4 but what that literally means is that it’s they’ve just taken the screen instead of like a

I’m not sure what it is like a cathode ray or whatever the heck it was before uh phospher kind of type screen um they’ replace it with like a digital screen uh you know just like a whatever it was I’m not even sure what it was actually uh

Joshua would have to be here to tell you guys but um it’s it’s still a digital representation of a pure analog kind of radar uh signal um and so it’s it’s it’s hard to use and it’s very hard to make gesture use it a lot of pain what how so more broadly then

What do you have to have gure to do a lot of the stuff in the aircraft like like is it a two-person job to shoot air missiles is it a two-person job to to drop guided Munitions uh I would say funnily enough it’s less than in the F-14 so you you

Can do more as the pilot and you do more as a pilot in the F4 uh actually uh and you even do some things that are a little bit surprising uh I’m trying to think of a good example but there’s a couple of things where it’s like oh oh the pilot

Is fully responsible for that yes um which which in the F14 would have been the other way around where the where the Rio had exclusive control over something uh for the in the F4 the wizo has to basically yes you basically need him to fire radar guided missiles using the

Radar uh and you also need him if you’re doing ground attack sorties that utilize radar functionality um where you know you you put your marker somewhere and uh that guides your bombing computer in these kinds of things but in many respects it is much less than the than

The F14 which is which good from that sense so the Pod you can use there’s some sort of targeting pod right cuz you got PS no so the targeting pod is one of those things where you need the wizo and the targeting pod I think that’s going

To be one of the most fun thing for people to use because it’s not really stabilized it’s got a couple of kind of I’m not sure how to describe them it’s not like the lantern or any other pod in the game I don’t think there’s any

Similar pod in the game actually um if your pilot is you know even turning a little bit too fast it it’s like a little video game in and of itself uh keeping that reticle on the target um it’s one of the most fun aspects of it

Uh at the moment uh so you need the whistle free that uh and there’s a couple of other things here or there that you you you really need him for uh but um especially a lot of the air to ground stuff um you you do as a pilot uh

Fully and completely uh Mavericks and bull Bullpup and and all all kinds of ordinance like that is is fully pilot side um again aside from from the bombing computer kind of Mark Point kind of stuff and so how how much of that would be the AI able to do so you have

To have a real like person REO or you can trust in Jester to do some of the stuff for you the goal is the latter part where you can trust Jester to do everything for you um that’s the target that’s where where we will be eventually okay so that is I think important

Distinction where we will be on launch day is depending on how much coffee we consume and and whether any of us get a coronary in the meantime quite frankly um you know we want to do as much as possible but again uh doing Ai and doing it well is really tough so

Um we’ll always search for Alternatives if we don’t manage to squeeze something in so you know there’s people do people use keybinds in the 14 where they kind of reach back into the rear cockpit and they’ve B bound a bunch of stuff that and we’re not really opposed to that and

Maybe if we don’t manage to do something for Jester we will even offer some kind of pre pre pre-bound way of doing that for example uh we never want to limit people just because it’s a two- seat aircraft um however obviously pilot workload it will be tough if you’re

Handling the duties of two crew members yeah well the DCS Community I mean the I think the vast majority are single players you know single pilot type players um so you got to make it accessible but at the same time I mean it it’s a two-person aircraft so you

Know it is it is what it is and it’s trying to do a lot of advanced stuff so that’s a challenge yeah but um I’m looking forward to it I think I think it’s going to be cool I the the more I dig into Jets and stuff the more I do

Find myself drawn to more this old school analog type aircraft and I think the environments and the situations the scenarios that you can come up with for those is a lot more robust than uh the sort of just it can do everything you know I like I like having to rely on

Other platforms to do a portion and then I do this other portion so I think it’s going to be cool did you have enough uh subject matter experts for the F4 uh I think surprisingly yes um for the F-14 we had some some some folks who uh especially one

Uh One Pilot in particular that people know on the forums as victory 205 which was simply um integral to to the whole whole thing of developing the F14 and what I mean by that is that um sometimes you’ll get subject matter experts who who have a long and stored

History with the aircraft but they don’t quite remember the details uh they don’t quite remember the uh sure it either it didn’t matter or it’s just it’s in the halls of time you know it’s just it kind of goes um and it’s that’s fine but then

You when you get lucky you get subject matter experts who remember everything uh and they even remember all the anecdotes around it or they remember some situation they were in which can give you a little bit of color to the situation um and if you’re even luckier um this particular individual will have

Some kind of history with uh or active employment in in the realm of Aviation currently or experience working on simulators and these kinds of things and then uh that experience gets fused in with everything else um and we’ve been very lucky on the F14 that we had that

And we actually have managed to uh acrew um a great group of subject matter experts on the Phantom as well where where that’s the case so we’ve been really lucky we expected it to be less of a case right because of the age of the aircraft and um

And so on but uh but I can’t can’t speak highly enough of the Fantastic feedback we get from the from the subject matter experts we have um one thing I really love is the trailer and the over-wing like textures um you know like the Vape I think that was pretty amazing but one

Thing in particular I really enjoyed was the I’m with stupid grease pencil um can you explain that just a little bit like what we can do with that uh you can uh either just draw stupid stuff uh phallic objects or whatever you may pop into your

Head um or you can do something useful with it uh I forget I I don’t quite know how you do it maybe one of you guys knows the exact procedure but I think it’s called the doughnut procedure something like that where you draw a circle around something that you see you

Both draw a circle around it both the wizo and the pilot and then you can use that as a reference so you can put that circle on some other object and go like Hey look at look through the donut uh and you both know what you’re looking at

Essentially um so it it’s useful yeah um but I think 99% of people will draw stupid stuff th% yeah I’m going to put cmo’s phone number on there for a good time call casmo 1800 no that’s cool though I I’m I thoroughly enjoyed the trailer and whoever makes your trailers is

Phenomenal thank you very much really good one of the things you mentioned was how difficult Jester was in in uh the AI cockpits across the board what would you say is the most difficult thing or more most challenging that you didn’t expect in this project

Uh that’s a that’s a tough one it’s been it’s been a very difficult project for us um if I look back I when we started the whole Phantom we started development I remember being in a meeting with I’m not sure who it was might have been

Somebody at Ed or somebody and I kind of went like yeah it feels like we’re on autopilot you know we’re making a phantom we did the Tom Cat we know exactly what I mean it’s like we’re just doing the same thing except even simpler

It’s if I could go back to that day and uh and slap myself I would give me a time machine that’s number one thing I’ll do um it’s been a very very difficult development process from a lot of different aspects both outside of the aircraft itself so just personal stuff

And illness and the war and everything um uh to actually some of the stuff of the aircraft itself has been far more difficult than we ever expected um and we we definitely have a habit of biting off more than we can chew um Jester is one of those examples um but then the

Level of detail and Fidelity we’ve tried to achieve in the project in general we’ve built like up this whole component system which is like a whole new way of simulating aircraft for us where you know that it comes with a lot of benefits but the amount of complexity is

Like fivefold versus the F14 um and that sounds very pompous I’m I’m not trying to be like oh it’s so complex in comparison to everything else but it it um it’s it’s brought with it a lot of challenges and I think probably that’s been the biggest one where

We we kind of we kind of went for a level of detail that we’ve never gone for before and um we don’t have a producer uh above me you know I’m the I I I pay the salaries so I I my say goes and I don’t have a producer above

Me to say Nick this is not a good um investment of time and effort uh in the end I I think it’ll all work out and it’ll be great and it’ll be hopefully something people find great but I think that’s been the biggest challenge we’ve really uh went broader and and kind of

Deeper than we’ve ever gone before and it’s it’s it’s difficult to um uh how do I put it it’s been difficult to put together essentially because of that um it’s a very ambiguous answer I think to your question but it is the truth no no no it’s that’s it’s absolutely fine no I

I totally get it um every project is going to be a bit different even if you think that they’re going to be very similar so totally understand um we love hearing all the news you guys have to share but I was just curious if there’s any more Euro Fighter news uh not right

Now um it’s uh we’re all hands on deck on the Phantom to get that out the door and once that is done we will start sharing far more on that um that’s a another big maybe I’ll be like in whatever amount of time I’ll I’ll instead of saying no more two person

Aircraft I’ll be like no more mfds and head- up displays or something like that so it’s usually how it goes so I’m looking forward to that at the moment though understandable understandable the heat blurs cesna 172 Skyhawk I was just about to say it we uh we the extra 300 yeah to take

Time off we don’t really fly DCS uh you know we work for 14 hours a day some of us and we we can’t we can’t stand opening DCS uh so what we do to relax and still kind of stay in the flight Sim thing is we jump on Microsoft Flight Sim

And you know we fly like uh beavers down some Alaskan uh the mountain ranges or or you call them fjords in Alaska I don’t think so but let’s let’s call them fjords we putter around in those and that’s giving us a little bit Moment of Zen at least so I maybe we’ll do

Something like that you know like a float uh with five gauges and that’s about it oh I was I was curious on how big the project was to migrate the F14 over to Microsoft light simulator uh that one was really big and the reason for that

Is that the F14 wasn’t built in a way where it would easily allow it essentially um so that’s something you have to design in right from the start so it’s it’s been a basically a complete rewrite um but uh that’s something we we enjoy exploring and uh you know you can

Fly anywhere in the world and I don’t know it’s it’s uh we just enjoy kind of spreading U as much of the kind of love we have for these aircraft on as many platforms as we can so I don’t you know it’s kind of

Like a lot of fun to do that I think it’s kind of like tricker spreading the love oh you know what I’m that’s do that’s Dr disrespect he has that song give him the love but no we we appreciate it uh Nick absolutely this is awesome

Yeah um we’ve taken up an hour or more of your time so we do appreciate you coming on and talking to us about it I think we’re all in agreement that we’re looking forward to uh Jester not objecting but also the F4 just in general it’s going to be great uh no I

Really do look forward to it I think it’s great it’s a great uh you know it’s got Nostalgia to it of course and um yeah I look forward to to playing around with it so thank you very much for coming on to the show and telling us a

Little bit about it thank you so much for having me appreciate it guys thank you so much this has been the air combat Sim podcast music by vampire stepdad want to support the show check out our patreon follow us on Facebook and be sure to leave a comment and Ra but one of the main things I don’t like is like the vibration software even when I hit turn off on vibration it’s still iates yeah you’re saying and like it’s on my desk like and I have I have to unplug it so it’s unplug now are you sure it’s the win

Win what are you sure it’s win wink yes