How Labour Became Electable | Angela Rayner

Could Labour still lose the next election? What really went wrong under Jeremy Corbyn? What do the left actually think of the right?

Rory and Alastair are joined by Labour’s Deputy Leader, Angela Rayner, to discuss all this and more on today’s episode of Leading.

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I wouldn’t really be welcome in your your kind of labor party um so I mean this why that well you know you cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum homophobic racist misogynistic absolute pile of Banana Republic eonian piece of scum right yeah do you want me to I’ll

Explain that that was because they said I called Tories that I didn’t I was fuming welcome to the rest politics leading with me anist Campbell and me Rory Stewart now if labor the next general election then we’re probably sitting with the person who will become the most powerful woman in

Britain which will be a pretty incredible journey given that she was a carer for her sick mom age six she was a single mom at 16 she worked in the care sector and then as a union convenor and then became an MP and and in no time at all was on

The labor front bench under Jeremy Corbin and is now Deputy leader and says that she sort of models herself on what John Prescott was to Tony Blair she would like to be tea starma so welcome to Leading Angela Raina thank you that if did a lot of heavy lifting in that

Just say well if you’re elected if we’re elected well I think you got to hold on to the if yeah I think do but you have to make sure that you hold on to that ifut because it’s you know a week’s a long time especially in these times in

Politics so you certainly have to hold on to the if can we hold on to the if I mean do you think it’s possible that you could win the uh lose the next election sorry I think it is possible and and what sort of things in your nightmares

Might mean that a party that’s been nearly 20 points ahead for one than a year could actually lose an election given all that that the Tories have done for the last 13 years well Rory you saw what happened with Theresa and the poll lead she had ahead of the

2017 general election and then it just kind of Tanked when we got into the short campaign what did you learn from that what did she do wrong in that uh I think it was the complacency in which she felt that she had a right and that

She was going to get elected I think the conservatives were complacent they were jering they were jubilant almost in the runup to that and they underestimated their opponent and they underestimated where the British public were and I think I take some great lessons from that and I think you have

To and you have to understand that people at the moment are angry with the conservative government they’re angry at the last 13 years but that anger doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re enthusiastic about another political party and you’ve got to understand that you know a lot of trust has been taken

Away from politicians because of actions of of some and therefore it’s really difficult for people to to have that optimism that things will change especially in really dire Economic Times now you were you were 17 when Tony Blair won his first election in 1997 which honestly makes me

Feel really really old but it’s quite an interesting perspective for you to look at that time and I wonder what lessons you learned from that because there was a feeling in the country then that we don’t want them and we do want that yeah

How do you now that feels to me as the missing piece so how in the coming months do you get to that missing piece where people aren’t just saying I don’t want these bloody Tories anymore I want that yeah and I think the the the strategy that me and Kier have had since

We took over the leadership of the labor party was first to recognize the thumpin defeat we had and that the labor party as as some people who were close to me said Angie we didn’t leave the labor party the labor party left us you know my voters voted labor for a very long

Time said you didn’t give us an option and then they were very angry with us because they said you you’re to blame for us having Boris Johnson they still do not let me forget that can I interrupt when they say you left us what’s what what would be two or three

Things which made them feel that you’d left them I think first of all is they felt that we weren’t listening to them they felt that we didn’t understand the frustrations and they felt we weren’t giving them a credible alternative so they didn’t feel like we were an opposition that was ready for

Government they didn’t even feel we were a credible opposition let alone uh government in waiting and they felt they weren’t being listened to they felt they were being taken for granted that we you know in our labor heartlands it felt like oh well we were just expecting them

To vote even though we weren’t necessarily listening to some of their frustrations and our messages weren’t getting across we looked like I mean if you take the similarities to today and this is where the conservatives are in real trouble is we were in chaos we were in fight and we wasn’t looking outwards

Towards the country who wasn’t looking to the photos we just looked like a a rabble that was shouting at each other whe whether you were Carbonite or not it was damaging for the whole of our labor movement and and yet something which the Tores are absolutely gunning for K over

And we’ll probably do to some extent with you as well is the fact that you you all sat there and went out on the airwaves and said Jeremy Corbin would be a fantastic prime minister because that’s your job because you’re in the shadow cabinet do you think that I mean

And that was the big thing wasn’t it it was it was Jeremy as much as anything else that people were rejecting yeah there were there was the issue around Jeremy but I still think that that labor government would be better than what we’ve got if you look at the co inquiry

Boris Johnson is on understand today and you know it’s appalling what happened if you looked at our Manifesto at that time there was commitment to Nato there were good people around that shadow cabinet that would you know it’s not a presidential election we knew that Jeremy had weaknesses I I was you know

Publicly I said that I didn’t think Jeremy was a good leader because he couldn’t make decisions he was he was all over the place you know I like someone who I might not agree with you but make a decision and stick with it and then stick with the principles of

Why why you why you’re making that decision so but we were we were a party that was dysfunctional because not everyone was trying to get us into government at that time but for me I’ve seen labor governments and I’ve seen labor leaders and I might not have agreeed with everything that Tony Blair

Did as leader why not because because I don’t don’t answer that don’t because I don’t but but the thing is that it really made a big difference to people’s lives people that are that needed opportunity that needed that hope people like me in 97 who had a young baby who

Um had government ministers at that time saying I got pregnant because I wanted a council house I mean it’s the most ridiculous thing to say and feeling scared feeling like where’s my life going and then having a government that was saying actually I’m going to if you

Work hard if you do this I’m going to give you an opportunity you can go into education again yes she failed your GCS because I was looking after my mom and I had other issues it wasn’t cuz I was thick and I couldn’t do it um okay we’ll

Give you a second chance at going to college for free we’ll give you opportunity so it was a government that was really listening to and understanding the challenges I face but then putting Solutions forward so that’s why I felt in those years that yeah I needed to be in government and I still

To this day I’m I’m eight years I’ve been on the front bench eight years and in all those eight years there’s only been one time time that I’ve really felt and made a difference and that was when I worked with Justin Green on the sex and relationship education in schools

But other than that I feel like not made much of a difference at all can I lean into that for a little bit because I often felt very frustrated can you sort of explain to listeners why it can often feel very frustrating because from the point of view of the story that voters

Are told is here are these members of parliament a shadow cabinet these are very powerful people that but actually often members of parliament feel quite powerless and you you can 8 years can pass and you feel just talk talk that through a little bit I mean it’s not

Particularly a political party point but just the experience being an MP and why it can be frustrating I’ve heard what you said about that and there is there is part of that that you know you’ve got the whip you’ve got there but I I don’t know what other solution there is to

That because I do believe you have to have some discipline this is why I think the conservatives are in real trouble at the moment because there isn’t any discipline at all and they’re actually the government which makes it even more scary than the opposition being in that

Situation um but it you’ve got to get people and I suppose this is why I’ve been more successful in in Parliament in the years I’ve been there is chaos is something that I’ve got used to that’s my life that was my childhood so it was like okay this is wild but that’s what

I’m used to and then it’s about building bridges and about Crossing um Crossing people’s dividing lines and finding a way of getting people and politics a lot of lot of people think it’s about legislation and and bills but it’s not it’s about people it’s about understanding an argument and it’s about

Trying to convince others of your argument and then working ways around how you can get there listen you mentioned your childhood there let’s just focus on that for a bit because it is a you know people like to say all MPS are all the same they all come from the

Same sort of backgrounds blah blah blah blah blah and there were you first of all tell us about your dad and your mom well my mom and dad I mean my mom had bipolar and um my mom I called it a learning deprivation because my mom

Never went to school she was one of 12 on w shaw Council EST State the biggest Council EST State we had and she said I followed the fair that was my mom’s um um assessment of her childhood and and her her parents have been doing what her

Parents they didn’t work so it was you know um I remember going to the local Social Club every Sunday with them and the lads would smoke in one room and the girls would play Bingo in the other and we’d wait for the fish man to come with

The prawns and we’d have some of them for 50p and that was every Sunday night but my mom never really never really had a belief in herself so my mom had this learning deprivation um she couldn’t read all right and because she’d never been to school she’d never been to

School not she never really went so she couldn’t read or right she had this learning deprivation and all my mom wanted to do can I just interrupt quickly how how common is that today for people to actually manage to avoid going to school completely did you come AC I

Think it still is common and I think not necessarily going to school I think actually off- rolling is more of a problem today than it was at least when I was at school and I I I lost my uh belief in education probably about

The age 12 13 because I started I was I was quite feral and the outside world was much more interesting to me than school ever was because I was already already behind because my mom couldn’t read or right so I hadn’t seen a book so

When I went into school no books at home no books at home no so when I when I went into school I was already behind my peers and then as she step up into Secondary School it gets a lot harder and I was already just about keeping up

Because I was behind everybody anyway homework wasn’t a thing in our house my one couldn’t help me my dad wasn’t he was out so um so yeah so when I got to secondary school things outside of the classroom had more of an impact on me whether it was things that I found more

Interesting or crisises at home so I was already behind and therefore the one important thing about my childhood is my teachers and my school kept me in school as long as they could they kept me safe I was on the books today those kids if you can’t get your teenager into school they’re

Offroad the school will come down on them and say you either homeschool them or you’re going to be fined or you’re going to have this so these kids are dropping out of the system now earlier than before and just tell me about your your M’s bipolar disorder how how did you

Perceive that as a child and and what what was her life like what’s her life like now and what’s what do you think the impact on you has been I think when I was growing up I was really angry because the house was dirty um I didn’t

Get the support that my friends did you know my monc couldn’t cook I used to go around my friend’s houses to ask for Sunday dinner like canash Mom and dadd if I could stay for dinner and they’d say you can’t stay today you stayed yesterday andine had sit on the curb

Outside and wait for them to come back out and play out um I was really angry at my mom because I just thought you have brothers and sisters yeah I got two siblings but I was the eldest daughter so Q in my household it was it fell on

Me to to look after my mom and and to to be around and do as much as I could but I was really angry with my mom because I felt like I saw other people people’s moms and I thought why is my mom not like that why doesn’t she do these

Things and I thought my mom was incredibly lazy and selfish and I didn’t really understand how mental health could really debilitate people and now I look at my mom and I think she’s an absolute hero because I’ve never been in despair at that point I’ve never been

And and I’ve always said to myself and and I don’t think it’s something that you can rationally do but I’ve always tried to have my own resilience to never get to that point because I’ve seen where people go when when they get there and it’s not nice and it’s awful for

Somebody to get there but for my mom to with with her with her challenges for my mom to dig herself out of that place time and time again I think that’s heroic now but at the time I didn’t see that as a child and did you have the the

UPS as well as the downs and were they both as bad for you yeah I mean my mom would have said it at the time and she still says it she said I could only love one person and that was your dad so if my dad was being nice then my mom was

Happy if my dad was out then my mom was miserable her whole life revolved around tell my dad tell us about your dad um he was just what I would describe as typical like I would say working class but he didn’t really work that much when

We were growing up but he’d be out you know he’d he’d be out in his car he’ did the CBS and remember in their days everyone had CB radios God and all of that so um he’d be out Citizen band radio the young producer is saying what

None of them have an idea I mean luckily your listeners probably some of them we’ve got a lot of young listeners Angela we’ve got a lot of young listeners they might they might know what we’re talking about I’m showing my age now as well um but yeah my dad used

To be on the CBS and he’d be out it was just a thing he’d be out he’d and and we weren’t really it wasn’t my dad’s responsibility what do tell us what you do on Citizen band radio what what what’s he doing he’s just calling other

People yes so they go up to like a hill like a they they have that in the car they’d have like these Aerials he had home aerial kits as well but they’d have these Aerials and then they’d Channel 19 was anyone could speak to anyone then you’d move it to another Channel and

They all had nicknames but it’s like an early form of social media yeah yeah it really exactly what it was yeah exactly yeah can’t believe you did you know maybe you are but you’re younger than he is you’re younger than me yeah yeah and it wasn’t just a class thing CB radio

Wasn’t it was like it was like a it was a phase wasn’t it was it was a real yeah it was like a fashionable thing to do for a while for a number of years so where are your mom and dad now so um my

Dad’s in Bolton mhm and my mom’s in um Stockport in ha grow she’s in supported tency so she’s got her own little flat and it’s she’s got a communal area and they all look after her and she’s very happy there and and how old is she now

Uh my mom she’s in uh she’s about 65 now so she’s younger than me and should and in retrospect should she have been supported much earlier oh if she’d have got if if they’d have been support for her much earlier interventions then I reckon my M would have had a much

Different life that’s why I go on and on about sh start and I’m not I’m not making a political point but sh right my mom couldn’t hug us my dad was my mom’s world and universe because she was brought up to think you’re nothing without a man okay so everything in my

Mom’s life revolved around this one individual and that’s all she wanted to achieve in life we were byproducts of my mom’s relationship with my dad she had no love in her life she didn’t get cuddles she didn’t know what healthy relationships was and she didn’t know

How how to be a parent I grew up in that environment looking for love in all the wrong places not having any selfworth for myself and not making good choices I could have been it was the 90s early 90s this was a dangerous time for girls like

Me off Council Estates I I could have got myself into serious trouble but however when I had my son it was sure St going there realizing I didn’t cuddle my child I didn’t spend any a change his nappy I put him to bed but I didn’t give that emotional support but because I

Didn’t realize I didn’t have that it was it sounds silly to say it but my ex-husband when I see him with the children he they jump all over him he’s so loving and it’s just so natural to him I had to learn how to accept my kids

Jumping on me and giving me a cuddle because it I’d recoil it be like it’s too much even now I saw my brother last Sunday and I gave his I gave his partner a cuddle and we both looked at each other and was like nah cuz we just don’t

Do it and was there ever any risk when you were growing up that you would have been taken away from your mother that people would have put you in care because of what you’re describing prob there could have been a risk of it if it wasn’t for Manana right so Manana worked

Three jobs and she we used to go to manan’s on a Sunday and she’d make us Tatty Ash potato Ash it’s great great dish with dead fresh bread which we’ never had at home because there’s no bread ever at home so we used to just like and your mother’s mother that’s my

Dad’s mom she used to look after us and we go weekly bath so we have our weekly bath ran brother thirst me and my sister and then my mom in the same bath water and then minana out have a twin tub and she’d do our washing for us and and wash

Our uniforms and we’d have our food there and then we’d walk walk home the two miles from inan on a Sunday evening freezing cold sometimes to get back would if your mom was listening to this conversation now how would she feel about what you’ve said I think my mom my my mom recognizes

Like our childhood and she’s quite angry now because she she’s more understanding of how debilitating her Obsession was with being a wife and being in love with my dad to the point where she wasn’t resourceful to have her own resilience to to make her own decisions and and I

Think she looks back on it with some regret but she’s she’s also incredibly proud be of of all three of us because my brother and my sister and me were all you know doing well we’re all successful in our own field and and we’re all incredibly good people what’s your

Brother and sister doing so my brother served in Iraq and uh he used to be a die engineer before that and his old YT scheme and and now he works um in he does like Building Maintenance security so he manages a big building and and my sister she’s part-time mom and also and

Part-time working at um a company parcel company she used to work in banking and then she got had babies and then she took time out to have her children your story is is unbelievable obviously um and often when you talk to people with these incredible stories you hear them saying

That they had very very Fierce Ambitions or dreams in their early teens but I’m not necessarily picking that up with you it it wasn’t particularly that my only dream in my teens was to learn how to drive legally so that I could be have the freedom because I can fix cars as

Well so I I could do like I’m I’m not a qualified mechanic but I can fix cars and when did you begin to develop the Ambitions to be a politician I never had an ambition to be a politician in fact it was quite an adjustment for me

Because I went from a home help um who had Rose through the ranks of the Union to look after collectively the home carers um which were all paid very poorly but very well respected and loved to being paid very well to everybody thinking I’m a Croc and how dare you

You’re just did it for yourself I was like wow this is this is quite a change it was pure term gatekeeper if there was ever one just sticking with your your family life for a bit though so you you were a mom at 16 yeah um and then you

Had another relationship two boys one of whom is quite severely disabled yeah he was born at 23 weeks yeah weigh in less than the py was 465 grams so he’s like one of the tiniest that has ever survived my and he’s blind he’s regid severely shortsighted blind Jay he’s a

Little tiny bit but not much yeah and he has I can never say it the dyslexia for numbers I can never thisal calcus whatever it is yeah he has he has epilepsy as well right so that’s tough yeah but he’s such a ray of sunshine I

Always say my Charlie is a kid everyone thinks they’re going to get really yeah cuz he’s so adorable like nothing ever phases and I remember him coming out of nursery and uh he’s running to get to me he was so tiny and he he looked so you

Know like the Milky bar kids he had these massive huge glasses on from about the age of six months and he looks cuz Prem babies always look a bit mangy like they need a need a dinner so he’s all like with his big glasses on and he’s

Like waddling to me and the pavement dips because you know how you get the dips in the pavement obviously he can’t see it and he goes flying and he literally scrapes his face along the I’m in tears I’m in flu I’m oh my God charie and he’s like Mommy I’m okay and he’s

Stroking my face as he’s got gravel and his glasses are all scraped he’s stroking my and that’s Charlie he’s such an adorable he’s doing his gcss this year he’s absolutely worried sick about them and I’m like son I’ve set the bar low in the family I’m trying to reassure

Him anything better than zero is good yeah I’m like I’m trying to reassure him but he’s really you know and I think a lot of young people today are like that they’re on this treadmill of if you don’t if you don’t do if you don’t succeed there then you’re not going to

Be successful and and I can see the pressure that’s on young people today and my Charlie is one of them but he’s like he’s breathing he’s achieving the doctors told me four times they wanted to switch the machine off they said there’s no hope for him and he’s 15

Walking talking having the best time of his life that’s great that’s great and listen just about your I suppose you said you you didn’t want to become a politician expect to become a politician so was it the Trade union route that that led you in that Direction and how

Did you get on that route yeah well the Trade union route wasn’t one that I knew about either so I worked in the private sector as a home career because it just about of anyone at the time and I wanted to work nights because Myan said she’

Look after Ryan when he was a baby um after she finished work and that’s the night shift and I wanted to work because I really did not want people to think I was what they expected of me so I had this real sense of needing to get out

And do the work they being the people that said you got a pregnant to get a coun house type people people like that there was this you know people like me we were considered like write offs and I really didn’t want to be that I wanted

To prove I could be a good mom and part of being a good mom for me was providing for my child to talks about this this sense of being right off was this something that you picked up from who from social workers from tele through everything from the moment I went into

School it was steeped in everything teachers were people that told you what to do they weren’t people like you police were people that kept you either kept you out of trouble or you know were around to sort you out you were not police social workers were not people

Like you it was it wasn’t people that just said they’re not people like you it was the whole system put you in your place right from and they still do try to put me in my place you watch my timeline and you’ll see there is people that will still say yeah andie’s all

Right but she’s a bit thick how can I be thick and be one of the most successful politicians in the UK how can I survive you’ve been in that environment Rory you’ve been in that environment how can I survive eight years as I have if I was stupid and you know could couldn’t

Understand do you think this is a class thing and where have you felt that most in the labor party in the unions or in Parliament um I think I felt it throughout through and I only understand it more now like I I didn’t see myself

As a feminist before I I used to hate all women short list because I thought I’m I’m as good as any man but the truth is there is unconscious by in in our society that that does that we do I I do you would you know we do if a

If it’s saw a group of lads with a hoodie on and I’m walking past them at 10 p.m. at night I’m probably going to feel slightly more apprehensive than I would if I saw a little old granny with a little wheelie chair going past me at

9 10:00 at night I’m sorry it’s just an unconscious bias it’s not fair but and I think we still got those in society today so I have to constantly feel like I have to prove myself in in any environment of been in whether that a union movement or whether that’s um in

Parliament take us back the unions so how did you first hear about the unions and then there’s an amazing Guardian profile of you as a union official that’s right I guess sort of 2012 maybe yeah 2011 it was so tell us about the journey to that and then describe a

Little bit what the Guardians describing of your daily work as a union official what you were actually doing day and day out well it’s kind of the same as what no one’s ever sort of gifted me where I’ve got to I’ve always been and I’ve always had to prove myself no one’s ever

Said I’m going to appoint you to that job I’ve always kind like say the as I was saying I became a home help because nobody wanted to do the night shift and in the private sector they take just about anyone on so I was there for a

While and then um some of the girls I was working with said oh the council are employing people and if you work for the council you get a proper contract because I was casual Zero Hour in them days and then you get sick pain you get

Your travel time paid for so I as my uh ex- boss who I’m still in touch with affectionately says I was the last old help in Stockport Council so I got in there and and that’s how I got involved in the union because no sooner had I

Been employed to work in the council they wanted to Outsource the Home Care Service and I’m like I’ve just come from the private sector it’s terrible why would you want to do that so I started speaking up in this in this meeting and some of the girls I with said you you

Need to be our union rep and I’m like what’s a Trade union and I literally became the union rep overnight you honestly didn’t know what the trade I honestly did not know what a trade Union was you weren’t a labor party house that talked endlessly about the minor strike

I really didn’t no no I didn’t know anything about it the the most left wing we got in our house is my dad used to religiously buy The Daily Mirror good on him right that’s the only thing but that’s as far as it went it was straight

To the back page it was it was straight yeah probably to The Back Page yeah and cutting out the free ticket to Cal and we’d go over there and that was the family holiday um but yeah so I went into the I became a union rep and then

Realized that the union isn’t all it cracks up to be at times either because I’m like right we’re going to fight this we need to do this what help are you going to give us to the brand secretary and they were a bit like well Andre we

Don’t do it like yeah and that’s a good impression of Jimmy at the time our Brad secretary so I became a bit of a nuisance but it was really funny because um I’d only been a union R about six weeks but I was a young member right so

I was a young female member and in unison at the time for your um full delegation to go to conference you had to have two females out of the five and one had to be a young member otherwise the guys couldn’t go and you the only

One so I went into the office and Jim’s like right here kid I’ve got a holiday for you I’m like an holiday he’s like I’m going to take you to barmouth and pay you 40 quid a day and and all you have to do is sit in this room for a

Couple of hours so I came out of it and I went to the branch chair at the time I actually thought he was trying to like have sex with me or something I was really worried that this guy was trying to take me on a free holiday so he could

Have his Wicked way with me and pay me I’m like I’m not that sort of person and the branch chair had to explain to me no he’s just our quotas in terms of like representation B that he just needed you there for that reason Trade union conference or labor Party Conference

Trade union conference yeah and the Trade union conference to this day is I mean I know we’ve got some amazing women leaders of the unions now but it’s still a pretty masculine environment it can be yeah it can be yeah we’ got we have got we’ve got Christina Mao you’ve got

Sharon gram and United so the two big unions are now led by women which is really fantastic uh but yeah that first conference was a real eye opener but it only went because it’s a free holiday and he was like he’s like you’ve got a

Crash for your kid 40 quid a day and so you you don’t have to pay any spending money and what about Parliament how have you found Parliament as an institution being a yeah that’s even more wild so it goes in there and um it can be quite seductive because this oh Mom people

Open doors for you this is status you know it’s like oh it’s right honorable oh hello and then like even on the front bench where you sit there’s a status in that even I’ve got a three- seat sofa like Rory knows three seat Sofas in Parliament is real estate it’s real

Estate serious stuff so you also became a shadow cabinet minister Shadow Secretary of State for Education a year after you’d got into Parliament unbelievably Qui pensions before then I did I was in the Whip’s office and unfortunately two that I was whipping within a couple of months we had Gerald

Kman and Michael meea so the whips decided that I’m probably not I’m not right for the Whip’s office they’ve had enough byelections so um but but nobody’s ever been promoted at that speed it’s unbelievable isn’t it no but we were in a particularly chaotic and

And and the thing is for me I was I wasn’t a Carbonite for me it was about service it was about you know you’re here to do a job and I’ve been given an opportunity it was really scary for me because I’m like I have I’ve been here

Five minutes and I got Shadow pensions and I got Shadow pensions when we had the Blake review massive big 800 Pages a single teer P State Pension Tata steel and um and one of the other BHS I think it was pension schemes went down and the whole argument around DB or DC Pension

Funds so I took it on when there was so much going on then when I was moved to education and then we had the biggest reforms to education and just to explain to listeners so you’re coming in you’ve been in Parliament a year and suddenly you are a shadow cabinet minister you’re

Managing your own team of ministers you’re no correction we didn’t have any ministers either we had no staff and no ministers the only one I had was gam Mas and bless his little coton sock and there were no ministers because they were all refusing to Ser Corbin yeah and

Then everyone was throwing Westminster H debates in and everything to make was Co I remember I had to do so again and again and again you were at the dispatch box in in and and you were taking on the Tory education secrety and all the Tory Junior Min who the who’s pensions for

The Tories then um oh they had a couple a different different ones there I can’t even remember they had quite a few different ones I went through four four or five education secretaries as well in my time because I was Shadow education for four years but I remember the first

Debate under carbin with the Tories and they obviously were jubilant because they could see the chaos that was going I had I had no barely any stuff presumably you would have been under a lot of pressure from colleagues if they were all choosing to Scotch their careers and refus

They must angry with you they must been like we’re all boycot Corbin and they would have been angry with you they would have felt many of them would felt I could have been Shadow secret of Education I refused to take it because I was trying to take down Corbin and now

We’ve been undermined by you but I respected their position but I also was quite frustrated myself because I just come in and it’s like look people have put their trust in US you’ve got a conservative government which are trying to do terrible things and you’re meant

To be the opposition so it I wasn’t about I don’t care who the leader is people needed to see that we’re fighting for them not fighting with each other but fighting for them but but the reason this resonates with me is that that’s the defense that my colleagues make for

I refuse to Ser in Boris Johnson’s cabinet and I was very very angry when other people were prepared to serve and of course people like Ben Wallace would say oh yeah but you know somebody’s got to be the defense secretary to be fair Ben did a good job I’m glad he did

Because at least he was there I I think Boris Johnson and you could see that through the co inquiry was at you were you were also correct he was not the right person to be prime minister but Ben got in there and steered us through some very very difficult times and did

It I think reasonably well you know he was one of the one people that I remember I had a problem in my constituency Ben came down he’s like he’s never Tor is never going to you know get anywhere near my ash underline seat at the time it wasn’t an election

Mode he came down because he believed in getting rid of tackling the criminals who were making people’s lives hell in my constituent and I dragged him down and he was there you’ve sort of given a sense of the dysfunction at that time but what what was sh what was sh cabinet

Like with Jeremy as leader I might as well have just had it in this room with all the microphones on or at least then you could have put your own spin on it or at least have had it in your own sort of your own language because the stuff

That came out of it some of it was spun you’d be impressed with this spin they put on wasn’t believe I wasn’t so um I’m not just talking about Jeremy’s team I’m talking about everybody it was it was dysfunctional it was dysfunctional the same time I mean it’s in Teresa May’s

Cabinet and you might as well have the microphones on there too because every single thing suddenly Liz truss and Gavin Williamson were being quoted in the newspapers you can’t function like that you can’t and and that’s the difference now is that we were in opposition and it was bad enough in

Opposition as as people said to me you gave us Boris Johnson because they couldn’t see us as a government the challenge we’ve got now is we’ve got this level of dysfunction at the heart of government and I’ve had that for for a long time so so you support in terms of

Care seeming to want real discipline yes you’re you totally on board for that yeah I think we do have to have discipline yeah we do I was disciplined when Jeremy was leader yeah yeah and I believed in that as well yeah we had a question last week on our question time

Program which was is labor still labor now I said yes but it was interesting that question was asked are you at all worried that in trying to win over the people that Labour needs to win over that KIA is maybe trying to push you a bit too far towards the center I’ll

Always have my arguments in the in the behind the scenes about what I believe in and what I want but as I said before I’ve never really got everything I want I’m a trade unionist at my heart you know I try and get the best I can get

And and ring fence what I’m up to and and make the difference but you have to be realistic about what you’re able to do and I think what K’s trying to explain as well is look the situation if if we were lucky enough to win the next general election the situation we’re

Going to be in we’re not going to be able to do everything that makes us all warm and cly inside because we don’t have it a classic example of this was when you know everyone was in open in arms and was like everyone was desperate

To speak to me when K said we’re not going to do free School meals for our kids because obviously I was a free School Meal kid and he’s and everyone’s like Angie you must be opposed to this and I was like but we’re bringing in breakfast clubs because that’s what we

Could afford and we also knew that would make the biggest impact so it wasn’t it’s not as binary as that people like to think that you you choose one thing there and it indicates that you’re rightwing on that or you’re this it’s not as binary is that it’s about

Realistically being able to make a difference and and and and challenge the fact that in government you can’t do everything you want to do and in the constraints of what we’re going to inherit we’re not going to be able to do everything we want to do but that we can

Do things better and do different things Alisa was saying um when we were chatting yesterday that of the two big issues which have been talked about in the last couple of weeks which is Gaza and K sama’s comments about Margaret thater the more difficult thing is Gaza

That in the end you know he can make comments about Margaret that and sunay Telegraph that’s not really going to have an impact but Gaza is a real thing do do you agree that Gaza is is more important than Margaret that and and difficult for the party I I think yeah

Because Gaza you can see like you can see what’s happening there and everybody everybody can see the destruction they saw what happened on the 7th of o oober they’re seeing the humanitarian crisis that’s unfolding and everyone’s desperate to to stop they can see it on their screen everyone’s desperate to see

See that that end and that outpouring is it’s an emotional connection to what’s happening there and completely understand that as a mother and a grandmother I completely get and and you you joined the labor friends of Palestine didn’t you so that was a cause that I used to I was the regional

Convenor for the northwest of Unison and we used to put lots of money into the Palestinian cause and I still support the Palestinian cause and I still want to see recognition for the Palestinian state but in the context of where we are what Kier is trying to do in his limited

Way as the leader of the opposition is to get to a situation where those hostages that people understood what happened on the 7th that people really understood what happened to Israel on the 7th of October that people were butchered murdered raped slaughtered 200 over 200 hostages taken

Rockets still being fired into Israel at the same time as seeing what’s happening to the Palestinian people and he wanted to get to a position internationally and working with our government so we spoke with one voice to get to a situation where we could stop the violence we

Could deal with Hamas because they cannot be allowed to continue to threaten Israel people in Hamas have said they want to wipe Israel off the face of the map that’s not where we that’s it’s never been Labour party policy we of course want to see a Palestinians state but Israel has to be

Recognized absolutely like Britain is like Germany is it’s a state it’s there and it has a right to be safe and secure but the Palestinians do as well so there has to be a long-term political solution to it and K was trying to navigate his way through that to get the violence to

Stop to the recognition of what the horrific situation that happened on the 7th to get to a situation where um the Palestinians are protected as part of that process but also in his chat Mouse speech which I thought was incredibly important was about the political steps to not pay lip service because everyone

Says well we want a two-state solution but but actually challenge what’s been happening on the West Bank challenge the occupied territories and also make sure that we challenge where Israel has been having Rockets fired at it and that’s been happening time and time again and also find that peaceful solution where

We recognize the Palestinian State and that’s what people deserve in that region I love the way you can be loyal not you know but disciplined with Jeremy and now disciplined with Kia because I think you’re right you’ve got to be disciplined particularly if you’re in government but I just wondered your

Relationship with Kia which is important it did seem to have a wobble around the time of the aftermath of the harle bo by elction was all the talk about the reop that’s when I found out I’ve been moved by press exactly and you you weren’t having that move by press means that

Instead of calling you and telling you you suddenly found out in a newspaper headline yeah I think it was more that um time ran away with K and he he didn’t get chance to tell me before um my team had a press inquiry about how I was

Moving so um it it it wasn’t the nicest moment of M and kids but we came out a bit stronger yeah we both came out a bit stronger actually because you know you know you you’ve worked with people before you you have you you have your a

Angone this is is our lines you cross one and then it’s like right well how do we work and constructively make sure that we don’t get in that position again and since then me and K have had a very healthy respect for each other and do

You see that the sort of Tony John Prescott parallels I’m I’m kind of John Prescot and Barbara castley and a bit of everything in between I think even just kind of you know describing yourself as Giants of our movement is pretty awesome to me but I just try and do my best I

Just try and do like people have put a lot of trust in me to be a politician and to be a working class female politician from the north I feel a real sense of obligation to not screw it up to prove to people that girls from my background are intelligent and can

Achieve things we can roll our sleeves up in any environment including male dominated environments and we can get things done and that’s what my focus has been and that’s what I continue to focus on is like no I want you know if we’re lucky enough to get into a government

And nobody thought me and K could turn things around and I accept the Tories have helped us significantly in that uh but nobody thought we could turn the party and change the party in the way that we have we we’ve got real opportunity to make real change in the

Country and if we get that opportunity I want in five years time for people to say yeah look she’s proven she could do this can I sort of get get something which sort of me feels a bit more personal to me which is that I mean I I

Think you’re come across in face to face as a very very warm sympathetic um person but in public for someone like me I really felt um you know even as a a voter let alone as a member I wouldn’t really be welcome in your your kind of

Labor party um so I mean why that well you know you cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum homophobic racist misogynistic absolute pile of Banana Republic eonian piece of scum right yeah and do you want me to I’ll explain that that was because they said I called

Tories that I didn’t I was fuming uh Boris Johnson our prime minister Minister who had made the most appalling um comments racist misogynistic homophobic comments and and I’m like and gone if I did that as a home help on minimum wage I’d never work in the care sector again that’s my prime

Minister how can you look down on people like me who would never ever say anything like that let alone think it if you said that the stuff that Boris Johnson has said in my local Boozer you’d be thrown out you won’t get past the you won’t get to the bar you won’t

Get anywhere near it so we got a prime minister who’s thinks he a posh boy who looks down on people like me who thinks he can get away with saying things like that so I expressed it in the wrong term amongst comrades but I was fuming because this guy was sanctioning people

For benefits telling people who were in food banks that they need to work a little bit harder like literally criminalizing people who shoplift they put like tags on baby food they put tags on women’s maternity bras because people can’t afford the mat you don’t go robbing maternity bras these are

Essential items that people needed yes they shouldn’t go shoplifting but no realization about the difficulties that workingclass people face and the pride that they have they don’t want to ask for things when they’ve got to get a hand out people don’t like that it’s humiliating but he was going around

Making those comments and I said I said I will apologize and it was him I was calling out and his cabinet who was accepting it I said I will apologize and I did in the end because I didn’t want people to abuse Tories because that was

Not my intention I wanted to call out Boris Johnson in hypocrisy I said I’d debate him and we can he can apologize and I’ll apologize for my comments and we could have a full-on debate about why he thinks it’s acceptable to make the comments he made and then call me out

For calling him scum for it but would you would you welcome Rory into into the absolutely absolutely and I still have constructive conversations and relationships friendships with conservative MPS to this day I just mentioned before Justin Greening me and her work really hard on sex and relationship education Bill Joe

Johnson he’s Boris Johnson’s brother I get on extremely well with Joe Johnson I still du to this day we opened up an arts college together the other week so it was not conservatives that I had a problem with it was with those people who look down on working class people

Who made makes comments that quite frankly you’d be arrested for in the street making those comments and he was our prime minister it’s like the hypocrisy just stunk to me sori that make you feel better I’m I’m not sure it does actually I think I mean I look I I

I detest Boris Johnson he’s a terrible human being and all that kind of stuff but I I wonder um is it the scum word you didn’t like because the rest of it seems to me perfectly fair I I wonder you know we we we talk a lot about polarization and populism and antagonism

And politics and clearly Kama seems to be trying to lead a movement which is trying to be welcoming of people who would have voted conservative in the past and I wonder whether this kind of I I understand your anger I understand your language but it it doesn’t emotionally come across to me

As great this is a party I want to join I’m going to feel at home she’s going to welcome me in it feels like anger yeah well maybe I need to work on that a little bit more because you you would be welcome in the labor

Party and and you know I’ve always had you know people these people in my not my my family are not left wi you know I used to talk about it you go to a family de and you you have to convince the one you know that leans a little bit UK

Kippy you have to have that conversations with him I used to say this at fundraisers because I I I recognize that that people have different views but where I Mark the distinction just just sorry I’m being really unfair but obviously from my point of view leaning a bit you compete

Is kind of offensive to me is it yeah trying to trying to win over a Centrist voter like me I I don’t want to Beed as somebody who’s leaning UK I think Mak Point she doesn’t come from a labor tribe yeah it’s like those people who have very different views on issues that

I have what do you think my views are well I’m not saying you’re leaning a little bit you Kippy I’m saying that that’s what I used to say the analogy was people in my family who have very different views politically than I do but let me give you the opportunity what

Do you think think the views of a left-wing conservative are a Centrist conservative what do you think we think about the world okay I think you think that um people should be able to get on I think you think people should be able to go to university and do the things

They want to do I think you care about the environment I think they care about animal rights in particular I think um they they want to see a a public state that looks after people when they need it but isn’t overly utilized and isn’t overly Bome and they want to see you

Know people have lower taxes um and and that I say the biggest analogy I would say the differences is that they they believe that people can get on by themselves and should have the rewards of their own success and wealth whereas I actually have a different view on that

Because I think some people I’ve been quite lucky I’ve had help and assistance but also I don’t blame other people for their Misfortune if they’ve not been as fortunate so that I would say that’s the big distinction between me and a more moderate conservative is I’m more um

It’s it’s not people’s own success to why they get to where they are necessarily yes it’s there is a bit of that but actually I also think that you also need to have a little bit of look in there and you also have a bit of

Society and you’ve got to pay that back that’s the difference I would say actually strangely on that second thing I I I’m not I very much believe it’s about luck M I’m not somebody who it’s more the rightwing of the conservative party who thinks you know get on your

Bike teit I mean I I’m very much come from a tradition that believes that a lot has to do with luck I don’t think that when people are are well off it’s because they’ve just deserve it or they’ve worked harder I think that’s that’s more the right of the

Conservative party so if if labor do when you become Deputy Prime Minister and God forbid care fell under a bus do you think you could step up to the top job absolutely yeah I work closely with Care Now absolutely cuz I can make decisions and I can look at

Evidence I don’t think I know everything that’s the big difference and there’s some people that go into those jobs and I think K is very similar to me like that he will always look at the evidence frustratingly so for some people because you know people think that I look at it

From a purely sort of emotional sense it’s not true I feel the Great sense I I understand where my emotions come from and why I’m hungry for it but I feel a great sense of responsibility to do my homework because of I didn’t have a formal education because of my

Background so I do my homework whenever I’ve come to a position uh and I’ve led the front bench and the opposition in those field it’s because I’ve done my homework and i’ I’ve made a decision based upon what i’ believe to be the facts and also what I believe to be the

Right thing to do and I’ve worked in a consensual way to get there and I’ve not been arrogant to think I know better than everybody else in the room and I think you’ve seen through the co inquiry the dangers of where you get to regardless of people’s Academia or

Background of arrogance when people think they know better than other people one of the things you do very um very powerfully and which is very important is speaking for a part of society that’s often ignored people like your mother but there are other bits of society which politics IGN

Uh in particular for example prisoners and I feel the public don’t think enough about prisons it doesn’t matter enough in votes but our prisons are horribly overcrowded both parties seem to be in a competition for ever longer prison sentences locking people out more and frankly we we don’t have the room

They’re built for about 65,000 people they got about 85,000 in them if you continue down the route that conservatives of Labor going down you end up with 20,000 prisoners and nowhere to put them when are we going to hear labor speak compassionately for conditions for prisoners and above all be practical

About reducing sentence length so we don’t end up with recognize why the disproportionate amount of people from different backgrounds that end up in prison and and why and how they end up there and you’ve got to have a preventative approach because you know I

Say that I talk about my son when I had my son at 16 he changed my life because I had someone to look after and I had someone to be responsible for and cuz I had no selfworth so I could have got myself into a lot of trouble when I was

Younger I could have chose a different path I was already leading that way as I said as I alluded to uh there was things outside of school that I found far more interested so I was going nightclubs at 14 and getting mixed in with the wrong

Crowd and I could have it was it was quite dangerous I could have been in a very different place um there but for the grace of God I ended up in a different place and took a different path but the challenge we’ve got in the criminal justice system at the moment

Far too often there’s people in the criminal justice system that have not been given an opportunity to get whether they’ve got mental health problems or whether it’s poverty or whether it’s substance abuse there is there is a lot of people in our prisons at the moment that quite frankly shouldn’t be there

And the only thing that happens when they go into prison is they become more acute at being a criminal it doesn’t actually solve the problem I agree so strongly and you 35% of prisoners have been in care 40% have been excluded from school as you say big issues with mental

Health big issues with poverty but all I’m hearing at the moment from the labor party is being ferociously tough on crime putting out stuff saying do you think that people who sexually assault children should go to prison rishy sunak doesn’t under labor 1600 more people different people who this most serious

Of crimes and this is this is pardon Upon a Crime at the moment that the government are going to release people early and but because our prisons are completely overcrowded and and they’re overcrowded with the wrong where I say the wrong type of prisoner you know how

Are you going to sort that out because you’ve got to first of all you’ve got to sort out the system at the moment which are crumbling public services that are locking off rolling the kids that are locking people out of the system from a very young age and therefore you’re

Storing up the problems all the way along you’ve got to have a good thve in public service you got to have jobs that people could go into and opportun five 10 year Sol but the the problem you’re going to face next year is prisons crowded the bursting and if you go

Around endlessly asking for longer sentences not letting people out you’re going to end up with far too many people in system now you may over 10 20 years be able to address the root causes of crime and address it from early childhood but that’s not going to yeah

Deal there’s other ways to deal with some crime there is other ways to to work within the system our probation service for example our uh youth justice system our youth services our social work all of these Avenues um at the moment are totally crumbling so part of

Our um resource plan part of our our looking at the whole approach to how we support communities is about trying to do some of that work these people in prison that quite frankly are in there that could have been prevented now I accept you can’t do that overnight

Accept there is a challenge in that but there is also a problem now where people who who should be in prison are not in prison because the whole criminal justice system is completely crumbled after 13 years of the conservatives you see the first part of that discussion

Was kind of music to our ears because we’re both obsessed about prisons and the state that they’re in and what I was maybe this is wishful thinking but what I kind of hear and sometimes I think this about K tell me if you agree with this kind of broad analysis that there’s a

Possibility he will be far more radical in government than he has been thus far in opposition because I can’t believe for a minute that KIA actually really thinks that the criminal justice system can carry on as it is that the prisons can carry on as they are that the pration

Service doesn’t have need massive investment Etc but until he gets into Power by being fiscally responsible by being serious growing up in a way that Johnson’s never been he’s kind of playing very very very safe but he’s also realistic about what we could do K’s been really clear that our one

Priorities to grow the economy we we’re not going to be able to fix all of our crumbling Public Services unless we grow the economy otherwise we have to raise taxes and we’re not going to be raising the taxes with tax burden on working people is the highest it’s ever been for

A generation so the challenge for us is to grow the size of the um the the growth strategy that we want in the UK so that we can afford our public service and reform of our Public Services as well and that’s what we’ve said because in a lot of these areas it

There is a real challenge around reforming what’s happening there it’s you know we haven’t got enough probation we haven’t got enough early intervention so we putting loads of resources at the far end which cost more money you know my mom if my mom out of Crisis there’s

No out there’s no Outreach can’t get appointment with a doctor she’ll ring me what happens my mom ends up in A&E she ends up needing acute care cost loads of money just just give her some help when she needed it and then it would have

Cost the state a lot less to do that so you’ve got to you’ve got to be able to reform the system to get the intervention where it’s needed the most and you do get payback from that it takes a bit of a leap of faith as well

Because you know I did this in home care when I was um the union official in Stockport we turned it around from a deficit budget to a surplus budget that we gave to learning disabilities because we were able to work in Partnership to keep people out of Hospital who were

Reoccurring offenders of going back into Hospital they didn’t get the home care so we worked with GP commissioning units who funded and it took a leap of faith from them to fund through because it’s a different public body to give us the funding and let us manage it and we kept

People out of hospital it saved so much money that we were able to give money back to the local Authority I I agree but and it helps people when they need it the most what about my question about whether you think there’ be more radical

In government I think I think he will be I think he will be radical but he’s you know Great British energy and and you know the green Prosperity plan and and the stuff I’m doing around New Deal for working people these are Big reforms that will make a huge difference the

Planning that planning reforms we’re making so that I could build Council and social housing that we know we desperately need in this country new towns that we’ve announc we’re going to be doing these are big huge reforms that will make a big huge difference for for our country so I don’t think he’s

Lacking being radical I think the mess that we’re in at the moment means that you also have to be realistic that you’re not going to fix everything overnight and what have you got to offer for your friends colleagues in the Trade union movement if they were thinking

About voting labor what what will the Trade union movement benefit from a labor government well my new deal for working people is uh once in a generation opportunity for us to really rebalance tell us about it tell us about the content the context of it is that you know Banning zour contracts rights

From day one um with overhauling sick pay I mean I’m cons some of conservative colleagues agree with me on these because you see the imbalance that we have at the moment uh you know Fair pay agreements to really tackle and said in Social care which is one of the most

Challenging areas to do it but I know it can be done and that’s why I’ve said it um to tackle the scourge of low pay in those areas and the and terms and conditions and reform for training so there is a huge package within that new deal for working people that will

Empower workers in the workplace who at the moment there is an imbalance now the best employers understand that my new deal for working people is brilliant and they’re on it because it’s good for business as well it’s good for our economy um there is poor employeers out there who have poor practices towards

Their staff and it is damaging people’s lives because you in you’re not insecure work you you can’t get on you’re in low pay you can’t exercise there’s so many people at the moment that you’ve got rights at work and they can’t exercise their statutory rights at the moment so

Those reforms will give people more empowerment in their workplace now my final question uh well two parts to it really first is what role do you envisage for yourself during the election campaign I’ll be out there I’m out there iwhere I know that but the

Focus is so much on the leaders in these campaigns now so specifically how are you going to be a big part of that campaign and then secondly I guess are you ready for the the nastiness that’s going to come with it in terms of a pretty desperate Tory party and their

Many media supporters well they’ve been they’ve been slow cooking me haven’t they for a while so it’s not like I haven’t had a few moments has that been helpful to be slow cooked in the long run probably but it’s very painful when you when you’re going through it I think

The the lowest moments was you know Boris Johnson what is it traitor bill and I remember during that that that period it wasn’t long after we’d lost Joe and we’re were in the chamber yeah and Paula Sheriff got up she was an MP at the time and she was in tears and she

Said I’m I’m getting death threats you know this anyway B I was I was there yeah I was there and and and some of the some of the piling on that you get it it radicalizes people the way in which our social media networks work at the moment

It it radicalizes people to uh approve their views and then also go that one step further so it becomes more of a challenge in this day and age to respect disagree and there’s people out there that that take it to another another level and and that could be quite scary

When we’ve had two members of parliament in a very short period of time murdered in their constituencies it it does make you think you know and certainly when I’ve had to take measures to look after my family that bit of it is it has changed me as a person I don’t go out

With my mates as I would do before and because I know if if I went out for a drink with my mates as I would have done as most people do every now and again you only need one picture of you with your eyes slightly closed because you

Were blinking and that’s it you look ABS there’s this picture that goes around social media of Florence Welsh from Florence from the machines and they say look at the state of Angela drunk it’s not me but it just illustrates the you know the yeah but you can’t stop being no I

Haven’t stop being myself yeah I am me but but I also I also am aware that you you carry a great sense of responsibility in the work that we do and you know you just try and you try continue to to do that and can I as my

Last question um y your your story is unbelievable right you’re incredibly smart successful person who left school at 16 with no G you’re going to get trolled for calling me that now you do realize he do mind he gets troll for far worse look at the jumper he’s wearing

Look at jumper um without being immodest reflect a little bit on what those qualities are because it’s not the thing that normally makes sense right I mean you wouldn’t normally and you must have felt this when you was Shadow seual state for Education we’re telling all

Our kids they need to do well study well get the GCS so that they can become an Rainer and here you are as an example of somebody who didn’t do any of those things and you’re able to talk fluently about Labor history about the economy

About this that that so tell us a little bit about two or three things about yourself which you think made that possible so I think I had adversity growing up but I also was nurtured by the state other people that looked after me and there was my nan looked after me

In certain ways and my teachers did and going to the youth club on a Friday and and and that being a home help meeting people that professors that needed me the role reversal people professional people that all of a sudden in their last months of their life needed my

Support and out so were mixed with different people for for first time in my life having to be resourceful cuz I had to look after myself so I learned a level of res resilience and I I I had a vocational I’ve got a masters in in real

Life I got a vocational PhD in real life because I’ve had to live it and I’ve had to go through it and as painful as it is when you go through those moments I learned from a very young age is you can survive it I learned from my mom’s

Adversity that you can get through it but I also learned how incredibly painful it is and I also learned that you need to reach out and get help sometimes you can’t do it on your own nobody can do it on their own you have to do it with other people and and

That’s kind of what’s got me through through my life I’m very resourceful I I I collect people and and and especially people that are different from me I I’m I’m one of these type of leaders that think um I know what my strengths are if I’ve got a weakness I bring people in

That that plug that weakness for me so I understand that so I’ve just been incredibly resourceful person because I’ve had to survived throughout my life and different challenges but those challenges have not broke me they’ve strengthened me I’m going to cheat and have one final final question and that

Is if there’s you mentioned Barbara Castle earlier um if there’s one thing that you could be remembered for as a government Minister what would it be Council houses I’m going to build the next wave of Social and counsel houses nice ones green ones one you want to live

In very very good thank you very much pleasure talking to you thank you thank you thank you that was great thank you no worries so Rory your next Deputy Prime Minister possibly I I was I sorry first seat without being too um sort of obsequious I was really impressed

Actually by how tough you were there because that’s cheered me up makes me think that maybe when labor gets into government are our podcast has an opportunity no I thought you were quite good at putting her on the spot about some quite difficult oh I didn’t at all

I thought we were having a rather polite conversation with somebody I really hope wins the next election that cheered me up that cheered me up um I think I mean I think she’s very very articulate very impressive um she’s also a very skilled politician I mean clearly uh you know she her whole

Background puts her in a very uncomfortable position with what kiss the position Kissam has taken on Israel Gaza and yet her answer was absolutely practice down the line emotional emotional full of examples full of passion we’ve had a lot of um people saying that I think finding that you and

I both been trying to be doing this sort of well on the one hand on the other let’s be reasonable about both sides Etc and it’s becoming it’s become quite difficult very interesting to see whether she gets any Flack and push back oh I think some of my some of my friends

Who are passionately angry and horrified by what’s happening in Gaza will hear that and feel that she wasn’t talking enough about what’s happening in Gaza and and very smart as well referring to Kia’s speech which was almost saying I hope people go away and read it but I I also think the way

She’s got a so she came in sat down um not a note uh sort of no asking none of that asking is what we’re going to talk about first question straight in uh very very personal responses to every single question also I mean her her her life is

Absolutely mesmerizing I mean she calls herself a workingclass person but actually she comes from a much much poorer background than most workingclass people she’s describing a mother who grew up in a family of 12 neither parent working not sent to school I mean she really has touched something which is is

A part part of the um part of Britain that I often feel that we don’t talk enough about in fact it’s something that always made me uncomfortable as a politician that often when politicians talk about poverty they’re talking about as it were the bottom four 40% but she she’s speaking up for the

Bottom five or 10% of society which are in a completely different you know her description of her mother’s house the life she’s living is is um very extreme well I remember talking to her before when she was saying that when she first arrived in Parliament and there was some

Of the Tor MPS who would sort of essentially say it’s the one from Shameless you know the Shameless the TV which actually written by a guy from Burnley um about kind of real brutal workingclass poverty and I think it would be amazing I think it’s amazing to

Be Deputy leader of the lab party in opposition coming from the background she came from and the struggles she’s been through but to get into government on that would be transformative for so many people in terms of aspiration and particularly if she can speak up for that Community because because I noticed

That even when Ed melban was labor leader he didn’t really speak for that Community he was speaking all the time for the squeezed middle middle um and that you know that’s the community where you really see real uh extreme poverty and there’s there’s a there’s a report out today I

Saw I think oecd but we now are at the top of the league of the increase in child poverty inre child poverty over the last seven years and and and also sightly horrifying um statistics that both in the US and the UK average height of six-year-olds has declined by one 1

Cm is a laned article um so I I think she’s she’s wonderful and um I do I mean obviously I do worry a little bit about the swing voter I mean she may not care particularly about the swing voter I think she does I think she does but but

I I I didn’t think that she actually fully empathized or understands where somebody like me comes from and I think when she she’s trying she’s trying hard she’s like you you like animals right she’s trying to think of things to say that that are nice about about Tories um

Should I say how I would have answered that question yeah go what would you say well I think you are have a real patriotic feel for your country uh Believe In fairness believe in strong defense uh um and actually do think that there are Traditions that are worth

Preserving um but where there are people denied opportunity there is a role for people like you and me and others to help them that’s lovely and actually Kia stama I think to be fair does a pretty good job of pitching to people like me when he says listen I understand we need

To be fiscally conservative I understand the sums need to add up we want to be compassionate we want to help people but we’re not going to bankrupt the country and we’re not going to go down some crazy kind of such dream but of course when she’s I I wonder also for

Business people what happens when they hear the talk about workers rights and all the stuff that she’s trying to do there because she’s trying to go beyond what you did in new labor those will be things that we perceive by some businesses more although the resolution Foundation report that we talked about

Was pretty strong on yeah greater role for trade unions workers on boards and that kind of thing I think what’s is interesting that I guess it’s seeing things through the prism of your own life but it is interesting to me the the Tony Blair John Prescott thing because I

Can see I mean John was a formidable politician no doubt about that and I can see Kier and Angela having a similar sort of dynamic the words together I think they should use her a lot in the campaign but she she’s not quite like John Prescot is she she’s different very

Different yeah very different I mean John would have given you some very different answers to you if I doubt John would have done the interview with you in the studio can’t we do it down the line but uh no that but that but the sort of you know Kier look kier’s from a

Working-class background but he’s sir Kier he’s the lawyer he’s he’s the kind of cerebral guy you saw I thought it was really interesting at one of the two points she for example when she thought you were taking offense of what she said the uky thing she got quite emotional

Very emotional about her her kids and the the disabled son in particular but in a very very positive way and I think I think that emotion even though it can put some people off you know you do hear people who say oh well I can buy K sta

But not sure about the northern woman you know you do get the odd Taxi Driver sort of saying that but I think that emotion’s got a real place in I think she’s a I think she’s a star and she’s a very very natural politician and and I

Think she’s probably one of the most impressive people on the on the labor front bench by a very long way I I think they’re absolutely right to use so I I I still haven’t quite got to the bottom of this extraordinary story which is as you

Say she got not a single gcsc and yet she is clearly un there one story she told in the previous interview about her mom who couldn’t read feeding them dog food because she couldn’t read the labels I mean you know to live you and you and I I’ve been in your house you’ve

Seen mine you cannot I can’t imagine a house without books in it yeah she grew up in a house without books books because her mom couldn’t read or write and here she is on the verge of being Deputy Prime Minister it’s an amaz this is this is the stuff of Hollywood and

And a maybe you’re right about the Prescott things so maybe just sort of finish on this I guess John Prescott wasn’t the guy who was out there trying to appeal to the floating voter that was Tony Blair he was tickling the party’s erogenous zones so Prescott was more

Playing her role which is appealing more to the party’s left and it would have been weird for me to say to John No not just to the left but also to workingclass people yeah yeah but it would have been weird for me to say to John Prescott what’s your offer to me

How are you going to convince a soft Tory to come across that makes more sense as a pitch to Tony blood yeah it would but what job would have said what you g gonna Vote for This rabble again then you he would have gone straight for

The attack whereas I think Angela was at least tried to formulate an argument right and hopefully if she listens to the debrief I’ve given her the best way to persuade Rory Stewart to come over to labor I’m still working on it Angela promise good well thank you very much

For getting it all the best