As the Summer of 1914 drew to a close, posters across Great Britain and Ireland declared “Your King and Country Need You”. Field Marshal Lord Kitchener’s call for 100,000 recruits for the British Empire’s ‘New Armies’ was met vigorously by the population of Britain, and by the September 1914 almost half a million men had enlisted.
However, not all who answered the call were accepted into “Kitchener’s Army”. Whilst many were turned away because of their health or physical condition, others were turned away on account of their height, despite being in all other regards fit and healthy members of society. A disproportionate number of these recruits hailed from Britain’s industrial heartlands, and many tried and failed, sometimes repeatedly, to fight for their country.
However, the most determined would not be denied and Britain would raise a ‘Bantam’ division comprised of recruits measuring between 5ft – 5ft 3 inches (152.5 – 156cm) in height. These men, the British Expeditionary Force’s 35th Division, would go on to see active service on the battlefield of France and Flanders, overcoming prejudice and the realities of trench warfare on the Western Front. However, trouble remained over the horizon, and the Bantams would have to fight for their very survival, against both Germany and the British Army itself.
In this talk, Mark will look at the raising of the Bantam Division, their service on the Western Front and the challenges they faced and, sometimes failed, to overcome.
Cover image attribution: “Bantams”, © IWM (Art.IWM PST 0971)
Right hello everyone it’s good to to have you uh with us for this history indoors talk it’s you know it’s great to to have you all uh here as we as we look uh into the past and present to you some some history um if for those who don’t
Know much about history indoors we we we provide history talks on a wide range of of topics you know ranging from from well the ancient period away to to the modern period And if any of that kind of stuff interests you whether it’s economic history social history military
History um then please do subscribe to the channel we are we are very close to uh 1,500 subscribers which you know I’d love to us to get to to that number um so please do subscribe if you’re listening to this we’ love to have you along and to have you part of the
Journey um so yeah we we would love to have you subscribing uh we we do have content on our Channel not just um just talks we also have like film reviews and a like as well so do check out the all the old videos out as well um because I
Think there some fantastic content there’s there’s a lot of videos there now so if you have a lot of times to spare or you got a free lunch break then it’s certainly something you can check out in your in your free time you often
See me appear as well because I I did I did quite a few of them as well just a little plug of myself there um you can follow us on Twitter and and Instagram and Facebook as well I shouldn’t say Twitter should I it’s X now make sure I
Get the right terminology correct so you can follow us on on all social media platforms um to keep up date with what we’ got going on as well as also on our YouTube channel where we do put all the talks coming up now now there as well so
Do check all those things out we got some great talks coming up ranging from the Ottomans all the way through to Civil War as well the British Civil War so again do do stay in in tune and then check for that I think that’s enough of History indoors I’m pretty sure you I
Say it’s enough so if you are regular with us you probably heard this enough I’m probably sick and tired of me saying that the induction um but it’s absolute privilege uh for me to to welcome uh Mark Jones again to speak to speak for
Us give a talk he gave a talk I think back in June it might be I think it was June maybe may but I think it’s June May June something like that yeah yeah it was a brilliant talk about the British Army and regimental system uh in in the
Pre first world war period which again I learned a lot from uh it was so such a brilliant talk so we had to we had to have him back uh and he we’re so happy that he has agreed to speak for us again on again another topic that I know
Nothing about so I am so excited to to to listen to this and to kind of engage with this one um so thank you Mark again for for for com to speak to us Mark’s doing his Ma at the uh I think University of wolver Hampton Birmingham
Wampton Oh no I got it wrong I was so sure that it was Hampton at Birmingham um so whoops Daisy uh don’t no one say that uh no one say anything outside this uh um but he’s doing his ma there and I know that looking forward to seeing how
His research goes there as well but I’ll say I’ll say bye for now I’ll come out the end where we have a Q&A session so please do think about question questions as well to ask uh and then we’ll ask at the end I’ll P at the end but for now
I’ll disappear and markets all down to you amazing so thank you so much H it’s an absolutely absolute pleasure to be here tonight and thank you to all of you who given up your Tuesday evening uh my name is Mark I’m as you’ve heard already I’m a student at the University of
Birmingham currently studying for a masters in military history I am teasing about wolver Hampton it’s a fantastic institution they’ run an absolutely brilliant call course and however today I’m going to be talking about the rise and fall of the 35th Bantam division in the first world war so I’m going to be
Be I’m going to begin by giving a very brief int introduction to the British Army on the eve of the first world war I’ll then introduce the volunteer movement that arose at the beginning of the conflict and the raising of what came to be known as kitner Army after
That we’ll then cover the raising of one of these units the 35th Banton division introducing both its un ual Origins but also its Recruitment and its training before its deployment overseas to the Western Front at this stage we’ll talk about the 35th division service on the Western Front in 1916 its Decline and
Its eventual rebirth at which point I’ll also briefly cover the division’s remaining service in the Years between 1917 and 1919 as per our usual custom I’ll do my best to answer any of the queres you might have at the end of this talk um and without further Ado I think we’ll
Take it from there now now before continuing there are a couple of important things I’d just like to point out very quickly first and foremost this is a history of the Recruitment and the broad service of a British Infantry Division in the first world war although we’ll cover some of the actions division
Took part in this talk is not designed as an operational history or Battlefield tour and so these actions won’t be covered in any extreme detail in addition this presentation does contain some references to discriminatory language this is reflective of the prejudices and attitudes of the time when these first accounts were written
And I feel it’s important to utilize these unedited versions of these accounts in order that we can really comprehend the attitudes and gain some insight into the prejudices faced by the men of the 35th division on a less serious note during the course of this presentation I will revert to various
Different locations across UK France and plers although I tried my best to ensure I’m using the correct pronunciation I apologize in advance if if it contains any errors now whilst I’m sure many of you will be really very familiar with the British AR Army and British and Military
Terminology I think it is just worth taking a moment just to quickly orientate ourselves about some of the terms that we’re going to be using in this talk now regiment is often used interchangeably with Battalion however in the British army a regiment is an administrative unit made up of multiple
Battalions all of which belong to the same regiment by contrast a battalion is a Tactical Unit of approximately a thousand soldiers and a full strength or so rather a thousand soldiers of full strength however in practice it often comprises of rather fewer soldiers when in front line we’ll also be talking
About brigades which are a tactical formation usually compris of about four battalions and commanded by a brigadier general although the term Brigadier was also frequently used in this period we’ll also of course be talking about divisions and these are tactical formations used in the first world war which comprised usually of three
Infantry brigades in addition to a variety of different support units and again under the command of a Major General and then finally we’ll also there’ll be a couple of references to core now these are a different kind of organization they’re an operational formation they usually con contain at
Least two divisions and they would and include again various different supporting units and be commanded by a liutenant general so without F further Ado let’s get on to it them now we could quite comfortably have an entire presentation on the origins of the first world war but for the sake of brevity
I’ll provide a brief overview here on the 28 of June 1914 the heir to the austri Hungarian Empire Archduke France Ferdinand was assassinated alongside his wife in Saro this act inflamed tensions that have been siming simmering away for much of the last 40 years between the various European great Powers namely
Austrial Hungary and Germany on one side and the French F third Republic in the British and Russian Empires on the other over the course of the so-called July crisis the various Powers maneuvered to gain an advantage over one another however on the 28th of July Austria formerly declared war on Serbia and the
Various spray Powers begin began to mobilize their militaries and the series of declares of War were issued with the British army sorry the British Empire formerly declaring war on the fourth of August 1914 now in 1914 the British army held a unique position within Europe it was
Easily the smallest of the of smallest of the armies of the European great poers standing at approximately 700,000 Men by contrast is France its Alli fance could mobilize approximately 1.7 million men and its principal enemy Germany approximately 3.8 million little one to them the Kaiser referred to it as
Britain’s contemptible little army now there are many reasons why the British army was so small including Britain’s wider strategic needs and its emphasis on the Royal Navy as its principal line of defense most notably however the majority of the European P Powers including both France and Germany could mobilize large numbers of conscript
Soldiers Britain by contrast had continued to rely on his professional Army the regulars amounting to almost a quarter of a million soldiers approximately half of whom would be St stationed overseas in various locations across the British Empire to bring its home forces up to strength the British army could mobilize
Some 200,000 reservists or special reservists many of whom have previously served in the British army the Army could also rely on the volunteers of the territorial Force formed in 1908 from the volunteer units of the Victorian Army the part-time soldiers of the territorial Force were intended to provide a further 320,000
Men for the British army however the Army estimates of September 1913 recorded that the territorial Force contains approximately 245,000 officers and Men which left it well short of its peacetime establishment furthermore the territorial Force had been created with a view towards home defense soldiers of the territorial force would be required
To volunteer in order to serve overseas and units were often mobilized without out of date weaponry and Equipment indeed the soldiers in this photographed are most likely to be to territorials due to the outof DAT equipment that they’re wearing so when the British expeditionary Force went to war in 1940
It was comprised of something in the region of 160,000 men formed into six infantry and one Cavalry Division and these divisions contained some uh so sorry I’ve lost track of where I am some 72 infantry battalions and 14 Cavalry regiments now compared to the European powers it
The Army senior leaders that is it’s generals its senior Battalion officers and its non-commissioned officers often had some kind of experience and indeed many had actually seen action in the B War where they’d faced not only a tough and determined enemy equipped with modern Weaponry but also an enemy that really forced the
British army to transform their approach to Warfare resulting in a well-trained well equipped Force which man Forman equals and May in fact even have been Superior to many of its Continental counterparts however before we uh before we we should be really careful in perceiving the bef as being comprised of
Steely eyed mustachioed Veterans of Africa and India many of its soldiers were relatively inexperienced and the reserves comprised of much of its strength and as much as 60% in certain battalions nonetheless the bef played a small but important part in the war on the western fronts most notably at the
Battles of the man and the first battle of EP in late 1914 however it paid a terrible price for its bravery sustaining some 990,000 casualties by the end of that year even with the support of reservists and newly deployed territorial Force units the bef required rapid reinforcements now the first source of
Reinforcement for the bef came from The Wider British Army as battalions redeployed from various foreign garrisons to the Western Front ultimately this would add to further five infantry Tois I to the strength of the bef as already noted the territorial force was called upon to support the regular army despite the misgivings of
Some commanders the men of the territorial Force overwhelmingly signed up for overseas service and the number of units were serving in France by the winter of 1914 however many more required training and re-equipping before being posted overseas and in fact the best part of three divisions had already been posted
To posted to various um overseas garrisons to replace regular soldiers returning to the Western fronts the British army could also call upon the officers and Men of the Indian army Indian expeditionary force a comprised of two infantry to fici and two Cavalry brigades had arrived in France as early as late December
1914 now the British government could also rely on the support of various Colonial auxiliary forces um such as the king’s African rifles who served extensively in the east African theater although none of these units would serve on the Western Front finally across the British Empire many an of the call for volunteers this
Occurred most notably in the dominions Canada Australia New Zealand and South Africa where entire divisions were raised for service overseas however even with these extensive forces more soldiers would be needed to meet the needs of the British Army and this is where this man comes into play on the
5th of August 1914 Field Marshal LL kitner was appointed Secretary of State for war an influential figure within the Army and the wider establishments it was Kit’s long held belief that Victory would only be a through the mass mobilization of the British population within days of taking office kitner had already sought parliamentary
Approval to increase the size of the army by half a million men and by the 7th of August 1914 his famous slogan your king and country needs you had already been printed in the morning papers kitchen’s call to arm asked for 100,000 men to Ser to volunteer to serve
In the Army and to serve for a period of three years or until the war was concluded this request was was met vigorously by the population of Britain and by the 12th of September 1914 over half a million men had already enlisted recruits were expected to match age and
Nationality criteria in addition to a range of physical standards medical exemptions would grade candidates sorry medical examinations with gray candidates as to their suitability for active service and would we doubt the most unfit or unsuitable now these volunteers were formed into a series of Divisions that became the new armies although they were
Also collo referred to as kitcheners Army as new waves of recruits arrived new units formed and were grouped into divisions and these divisions were initially built on the framework of the six existing Regional commands in Britain and Ireland with a division being raised in each region from banion
Which recruited in that area the except exception to this war was the was Southern commands whose divisions instead were referred to as light divisions rather than Southern divisions this process was once again repeated with the second new Army sometimes referred to as K2 however limitations were already beginning to be
Realized and some regions most notably scotlands and irelands were not going to be capable of raising additional new Army divisions for this reason by the time K K3 came into being Regional titles were dropped although a number of these divisions could have justifiably claimed to have to have maintained a regional
Affiliation such was the rate of recruitment that the war office was simply unable to deal with the mass of of men coming forward to serve in the Army in increasingly local recruiting committees took up the strain and recruiting began to take on in much more of a local flavor although motivation uh
Another motivation was the opportunity for recruits to join up from the same area and serve together in the same same Battalion ensuring that recruits could join up alongside their friends and their colleagues now there were a number of early adopters to this trend at the 13th Battalion of the gesier regimen for
Example recruited extensively from the L Brothers Factory at Port Sunlight similarly Lord Darby’s recruitment scheme in Liverpool yielded 1500 recruits for the king’s regiments addressing the new recruits Lord Derby said this should be a battalion of Pals a battalion in which friends from the same office will fight shoulder-to-shoulder for the honor of
Britain and the credit of Liverpool and thus the turn pounds the Battalion was born now these battalions held many diverse Origins and it’d be impossible to go through them in any systematic way today but some examples of these includes the Birmingham city battalions the barnesley pal the Grimsby Chums the
London Welsh or the tinside Irish and tinside Scottish brigades although principally an urban phenomenon particularly in northern England examples of rural Pals battalions also existed such as darish Chatsworth rifles or the Yan rifles who recruited from the farming communities of Yorkshire and the Northeast whilst many Pal’s units were
Not formed on the basis of a regional identity others very much lent into this for example the 31st division was raised entirely from battalions recruited in Liverpool and Manchester other units recruited were recruited on the basis of a shared identity for example several Sportsmen and public schools battalions were
Formed across Britain in Glasgow separate battalions were recruited from from members of the boy Brigade and current employees of Glasgow Corporation of tramways whilst in West West Yorkshire Battalion a wool textiles Battalion was formed however it’s a brigade of pal banion recruited from holl for the East Yorkshire regiment are perhaps the best
Example of this trend forming in turn battalions of Hall commercials Tradesmen and Sportsmen a fourth Battalion simply lacking its own unique identity simply refer to itself as others it should also be noted that whil many Pal’s units were infantry battalions local initiatives resulted in raising of a further 48 companies of
Engineers 42 batteries of field artill artillery and 11 ammunition columns despite the recruiting success that the new arm is represented a familiar issue came back to haunt the British army the physical health of the British population had long been a concern to the armed forces and were
Form the basis of much postwar social reform bad Health was most often a result of poor hygiene and unsanitary living conditions particularly for Britain and Ireland’s rural and urban poor the British arm’s pre- recruitment that often relied on recruits dra drawn from the lower classes and many recruits
Were rejected on the basis of being underdeveloped usually falling beh below the minimum requirements for chest size itself a de facto measurement for lung capacity but also for failing to reach height or weight requirements although poor Dental Health was also a cause of many rejections now the mass mobilization of
The British population in 1914 exacerbated these known issues and many wouldbe recruits were turned away on account of their health however a side effects of this process was the exclusion of soldiers who fell below minimum height requirements but were in all other respects fit to serve this was particularly prominent within urbanized
Industrial and Mining communities where unat and sanitary conditions often arrested physical development in childhood as a result many potential recruits from these communities found themselves turned away from recruiting offices simply on the basis of their height now as a result of this Alfred bigland the MP for burken head
Petitioned the war office to raise a battalion of undersized recruits for service in the British army now the exact Genesis for the raising of the first Banton division remain shrouded in mystery half truth and Fable the history of the cheshier regiment in the Great War suggests that four miners from Durham traveled to
Birkenhead to en list in the cheshier regiment where they were rejected on account of their height even though they were in all other respects fit and healthy biglin’s own postwar Memoir the call of Empire recounts the story of a local man who is rejected for being an inch below minimum height having already
Attended and been turned away from several local recruits rting offices irrespective of the origin of his inspiration bigin contacted the war office and requested permission to raise a battalion of the men who fell behind Bel low regulation Heights but were otherwise physically fit for service although the war officers were
Interested in the potential of such a scheme they informed band that they it lacked both the time and resources to consider raising such a battalion however the war office did say that they would they would authorize bigin to raise his Battalion and agreed to provide assistance in the form of uniforms rations and
Equipments biglin next sought to try and get some Financial backing from local organizations most notably the local recruiting committee and the local City local Town Council but both turned him down as a result ber bigland agreed to take on the personal risk Financial Risk of raising these battalions within a
Matter of days a Depot was formed at the bedington agricultural Sports grounds and a recruiting office was set up for the new Battalion at birken head’s town hall now I’ve mentioned the phrase bantams a number of a times and it’s worth us kind of just taking a bit of
Time just to kind of understand this so the term bantom itself is derived from a small aggressive breed of P poultry although by the Edwardian era the use of the term widen to also refer to a small but spirited person this language was often replicated in advertisements promoting Bantam units with posters
Declaring little men have made history pluck can make up for inches with others calling for little men with stou hearts and perhaps because of this the men of the of the Bantam unit readly adopted the image of the Bantam [ __ ] as their kind of as their as their unit
Emblem and it became very much synonymous with their identity so although bigin had intended to raise his new Battalion from the men of burken head birkenhead recruiting officers across Britain were notified that recruits measuring between 5 foot and 5 fo3 Ines in height with a J measurement of at least 34 in and
Otherwise Being Fit and healthy for active service were to be supplied with a railway pass to birkenhead where they could enlist in his Battalion now it should also be noted that this isn’t in fact the first time the British army has done this and in fact the Army had dropped the minimum
Hype requirement for recruits during the recruiting crisis brought about by the B war in 1899 recruiting officially op on the 14th of November 1914 and within three days over 2,000 men had joined up many having submitted the postal application advance having exceeded the numbers needed for a single Battalion a second
Battalion was authorized within a matter of days and we can see here on this photo the first the first of the recruits drilling on the bedington and sports grounds although efforts have been made to Target the Hardy mining communities of northern England recruits came to birkenhead from across Britain and
Represented a real cross-section of of the soci economic spectrum if we look at this example from the daily sketch for example we’ll notice from the image on the the top rightand Corner that the very first recruit from the Bantam Battalion RS Parker actually held from
York and again we can see in the bottom leftand corner that a group of miners traveled from far as far away as barnesley to join this unit bigin scheme had actually proven to be so successful however that other recruiting committees requested permission to raise their own Banton battalions the war office seized upon
This opportunity to expand recruitment to Encompass an entire Division and by April 1915 these battalions were Consolidated as the 35th division of the fourth new Army now the new division was formed from three infantry brigades with the first of these the 104th being comprised of battalions drawn from Lanier the 17th
18th and 20th battalions of the laner fers were PR primarily recruited from the mid towns of what we would Now call Greater Manchester whilst the 23rd Battalion of the Manchester regiment were sort of a really curious amalgamation of mancunian wi collar office workers and wigging coal miners the 105th Brigade held from
Western Central England the Brigade included the original Buren head Banton battalions now retitled the 15th and 16th battalions of the gesier regiments and were soon joined by the 15th Battalion of the sherbet Foresters who recruited extensively from the coal miners and Lace workers of Notting Bristol’s recruiting committee
Raised its own Battalion 14th glou which is populated by a large contingent of B bantams drawn from the cities of Bristol and Birmingham but also included miners from The Forest of Dean finally the third Brigade The 106 comprised of batan recruited in the northeast of England
And Scotland the head of the royal Scots recruiting committee Lord rosebury speared headed the recruitment of abandon Battalion for his regiment leading to the formation of the 17th Battalion of the royal Scots known henceforth as roseb own whose Manpower is primarily drawn from edin and the
Loan coal Fields not to be out done glasgow’s Rotary Club formed form a battalion of bantams 18th Highland light infantry although outfitted at the extent of the city Corporation a shortage of available material me of the Battalion known colloquially as the devil’s dwarfs would not receive the kills warn by other Highland light
Infantry battalions the mining communities of County Durham also proved to be fertile ground for the recruitment of bandoms leading to the formation of the 19th Battalion of the Durham light infantry although the proportion of miners was leens with men from the shipyards of tin and we the city of Leeds also raised its
Own Battalion 17th West Yorks in December 1914 and Incorporated many recruits transferred from the over subscribed birken head battalions as we can see from the regimens listed across these slides recruitment for the 35th division focused extensively on Industrial Britain with a particularly strong focus on Northern England and the central belt of
Scotland now it was decided that the 35th division supporting units made artilleries engineers and signalers were not to be recruited as Bantam units and instead they were raised in the same manner as other new Army formations the artillery brigades were formed in abdine Arrington Burnley Glasgow which also happened to raise the divisional
Ammunition column as well as West Ham which taken together I I can’t help but think is a rather combustible mixture of people the Royal engineer field companies by contrast were all raised in Cambridge here with a divisional signals company being raised in Reading in common with other divisions of this time
The 35th also included Mountain troops in the form of a divisional cycle company and F Squadron of the lanir huzar a territorial Force unit envisaged as Scouts and lines of communication troops the static nature of warfare meant that these units left the division in May 1916 and instead became core
Level assets finally the divisional Pioneer Battalion 19th Northland fuse leers joined the division on the 16th of June 1915 having been raised by the Newcastle in Gates head Incorporated Chambers of Commerce although trained as infantry Pioneers were the Pioneers were non- banson formation and served in a variety of important roles providing
Both skilled and manual labor but in the front lines but also behind the lines as well so the new division concentrated a rumor column near common near massam in North Yorkshire and as you can see they even had time to produce their their own postcards not long after the division’s
First general offic commanding was appointed Reginal piny who previously commanded the 23rd Brigade of the eighth division like many other successful Brigade Commanders was offered the command of a division as soon as one became available and th thus took command of the division in early in in on the fourth of July
195 now many officers might have had some real misgivings actually about joining such an unusual formation however Penny took a really active interest in drilling his new Division and instill instilled in it an ethic of discipline efficiency and aggression unfortunately others did not share pin’s Enlighten View and many held significant
Doubts as to the suitability of the division one medical officer reported that it is impossible to expect undersized men to be useful as soldiers whilst another lamented it is well known that little men cannot bear the physical and moral load of Modern Warfare now while recruits for the
Division have been relatively easy to find the question of finding suitable officers and non-commissioned officers was a more complex process candidates with previous experience of the Armed Forces were sought out by the various recruits committees however this necessitated the recruitment of men who did not fall within the physical
Requirements to be counted as true bandoms left hand Harry Stanton recalled that the 23rd manchesters had an unusually tall compliment of officers posted to them this proved to be a matter of certain consternation to L kitner who when inspecting the P Battalion pointed out these officers would immediately be signaled out as an
Easy target for snipers as a result officers of the Manchester Pals Brigade were measured for height with the shortest being posted to the 23rd manchesters to replace officers who are deemed to be too tall for a Banton Battalion now we might be tempted to think of this as
Being an overe exaggeration but if we look at this photo on the screen at the moment I’m just going to take a moment to highlight this officer um and one of the things you’ll notice is that he does appear to be rather conspicuous compared to the men who has command who he’s commanding
Around him now this issue didn’t just affect officers um and we have the Fantastic example of the 6 foot foot 5 in tall Benjamin Pearson who like many bantams have been turned away from many recruitment offices although on this occasion for simply being too tall he finally found a home Ironically in the
16th Battalion of the gesier regiment where he was promptly promoted to Sergeant based from what I can gather on his height if nothing else now the battal the division itself was later posted to soulsby playing for further predeployment training however it was noticeable that even with the apparent Manpower crisis the Army seemed
Hesitant to commit the division to combat and the 35th division watch with Envy as other divisions were dispatched to the front whilst they remained behind now although it suffered from many of the same issues of Supply that affected most as the rest of the of the new Army the 35th division was finally
Deemed to be ready for overseas service in December of 1915 however perhaps surprisingly the 35th division were initially warned for service in mesop the area covered by modern Iraq issued with tropical kits and helmets the latter said to have given the bantams the appearance of overgrown mushrooms the division then discovered that the
Decision had been in fact been reversed and the division was now to be deployed instead to the Western fronts where it would land in France in February of 1916 now we might be tempted to think that the division was unlucky to find themselves sent to France but in many
Respects this may have been a blessing in disguise Mesopotamia proves to be a harsh and unforgiving the of rich Indian troops with rampant disease sparse Medical Care had an enemy that proved tenacious in defense and would inflict a severe defeat on Imperial forces of C alamara in April of
1916 now the 35th division first entered the trenches in February of 1916 where they would form part of liutenant General Sir Richard hking uh 11th core in common with many other newly arrived units the 35th division’s brigades and battalions were divided between more experienced form in socaled Nursery
Sectors areas of the front which it weren’t seeing as much active fighting however as this photo on the screen shows even These Quiet sectors could be very dangerous and conditions could be very very poor the bonss were looking in this regard is they were able to learn from
Two battle Harden divisions in the form of the guards and the 19th Western Division as well as the relatively inexperienced 38th wealth division however the reality of the service on the Western Front was soon struck home when the Third 35th division took his very first casualty on the 20th
Of February 1916 with the death of PRI fth William katton of the 17th West Yorks indeed some 30 men would be killed as a result of the daily activities of trench warfare but having before having been involved in any offensive against the enemy one man who was not killed as a
Result of enemy action however was Private James archal of 17th through all Scot in June of 1916 the 20-year-old from Edinburg was called Marshal facing a charge of desertion regarding rather callously in my opinion as a typical slum product of poor intellect he had nevertheless been considered to
Be a good soldier sadly this would ultimately count for very little and private Archer board was executed by firing squads on the 4th of June 1916 one of 306 soldiers to face the same phase now between March and July of 1916 the 35th division took its place in the
Line as a fully formed division serving in the relatively quiet sectors between Lavonte and festo in northern France later moving south to new Chappelle and the FM de even These Quiet centers could be the could be the scene of extensive fighting and during this the time the division became profession as Tren
Raiders receiving praise both from their core Commander Richard hking and the commander of the first Army Sir Charles Monroe however the 35th division’s first significant battles were not take place until July of 1916 with the onset of the S campaign left out of the bf’s initial order of battle the 3th found themselves
Committed to the S battlefields peace meal with individual battalions and brigades being committed as reinforcements the units of division entered the line on the 16th of July 1916 relieving units of the 18th division to the southwest of delvi woods and longal on the 18th of July 16th chesir
Reports a series of counterattacks at Water Farm whilst to the north unit of the 106th Brigade who fight a series of bloody skirmishes around monteam in the early hours of the 20th of July 16 CH has made two unsuccessful attempts to Captain to monster trench resulting in
The loss of some 35 officer and Men killed 2 wounded and seven missing later that morning the 105th brigade’s 15th Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters attack German positions between arid head cops and mold Farm despite being exhausted from two days of bombardment in the fos Gene soaked trenches some men
Of the Foresters made it into the enemy trenches But ultimately were compelled to withdraw this attack was followed hours later by a similar assault undertaken by the 104th brigade’s 23rd manchesters but met with similar results in total the attacking companies from both of these offensives suffered 375 men killed
Wounded or missing a further attack on the 22nd of July by the 17th and 18th battalions of the flank sh fusers was again repulsed for the loss of 18 kills and wounded and sorry 18 killed and 111 wounded throughout the remainer of July and into early August the 35th would
Remain in the area of Delville wood holding the front line in the face of severe artillery Fire battalion of the 106 sixth Brigade would ultimately support the second division’s successful capture of delille woods on the 30th of July whilst the 35th division’s artillery and Engineers acted in support
Of a number of formations across the Sun battlefields most of the front most of the Infantry units were withdrawn in August the 35th division was redeployed into 10th Cor areas of operation where they attempted to refit and induct new drafts into severely depleted battalions of the division’s three infantry
Brigades it was at this time that a number of Battalion began to notice that the new recruits they were receiving were noticeably of poorer quality than those who had come before despite raising concerns about this the division’s rest pipe would be shortlived as both the 24th and 35th divisions were
Directed to attack gilmont under the command of 14th Corp however by this stage the 35th division was a shadow of its previous self and the divisional history remarked when the opportunity finally came to act as a division and Carry Out attacks which a month previously would no doubt have been
Crowned with success the men who could have executed these orders were no longer there and those who had taken their places were in many cases unfitted uh for for Frontline service that they were called upon to perform indeed both Robin PRI and Trevor Wilson have described the 35th division
As being physically inadequate for the task an opinion that seems to have been shared by British commanders reduced to a supporting role for the attack on gilmon the 35th would also lose their Commanding General Reginal Penny who was transferred to the more actively engaged 33rd division with whom he would serve
For the remainder of the war pin’s replacement was the 33s old Commander Major General Herman Landon an officer who appeared to be better suited to what was perceived as a less active divisional command even if the division had been spared to D direct assault on gilmon it still found itself embroiled
In the attritional fighting that typified the campaign on the sun and its numbers continued to dwindle in September the badly defeated division was finally withdrawn from the Sun battlefields now during the division service in northern France in the S it enjoyed something of a mixed reputation as has already been noted individual
Battalions and brigades performed well at Delville wood and longal but the 35th division as a whole had underperformed during their battles in August of 1916 the division’s reputation amongst fellow soldiers also varied rather considerably the division’s practice of lowering the parit of their trenches so
That they were able to see over the top was not appreciated by many relieving units and in fact a company sergeant major of the north thand fusel ear was heard to say on one occasion that sir them bloody little dwarfs have built up the fire step so they could see over now
When my Lads stand up half their bodies are above the parit I’m sure you were pleased they didn’t attempt a Jord the accent at that stage but it’s these prejudiced attitudes towards the Bantam soldiers existed not just towards the soldiers of the 35th division but also to Bantam serving in other units for
Example leftenant RF Barton of second suix complained that a draft Senter his Battalion in 1916 comprised of phantoms of all people tiny little fellows they are to no discipline at all however others recognized the bantams could prove to be doy Fighters and many lived up to the words of the
Popular verse the British bantams which stated that each man was a pocket Hercules in fact one divisional War diary noted that the the bond between the officers and men in these battalions was some of the best that they had seen on the western fronts the 35th division also was able
To develop strong bonds of mutual respect with some of the units they served alongside perhaps the most unusual of these was the guards division perceived by many as an elite unit and his pre-war physical requirements record for tall well-made men to serve to serve as guards to the
Monarch perhaps surprisingly the men of the guards division formed a close and mutually affectionate bond with the bantams of the 35th Division and private Alec Thomas of the Coldstream guards wrote after we finished telling the bants that they had Ducks disease we had to take quite a lot of funny insults
From them in turn we’ve taken to the little chaps right away so perhaps not quite the compliment he might have thought it was but it was well meant nonetheless I suspect however problems soon began to arise for the division in September the 35th division was sent to the IRAs
Sector for a period of what was euphemistically referred to as rest but soon found themselves in a grinding cycle of patrolling Tren trading and intense artillery bombardments at the same time the physical condition of the division continued to decline and sickness really became a significant issue although INF fairness
Sickness was also becoming a much broader issue for the Army as a whole on the Z battlefields matters came to a head how however on the 26th of November of 1916 when a series of trench raides were launched against the 35th division’s positions worst effective were the 17th
Battalion of the lania Fus Le which suffered two killed seven wounded but most surprisingly 24 missing presume captured whilst another man of 19th Durham light infantry was also captured in a separate raid the nature of these attacks coupled with a large number of men taken prisoner raised alarm Bells among senior officers
In the division uncomfortable rumors also abounded that some of the captured men had actually taken the opportunity to Desert now we should recognize that trench raing was a grim but fairly common aspect to trench warfare now and whilst the number of soldiers captured was alarming as was the Panic that had
Overtaken some soldiers many other bandoms of had resisted ferociously when 15 stward Foresters were raided on the same night six Raiders attempted to abduct private hnip despite suffering a broken leg and being stabbed and shot by his ass salance harn thought off his would be kidnappers and fortunately lived to tell the tale
However by this stage the damage had been done in the words of the divisional history it was brought forcibly to notice that which had been reported for some time namely that the major part of the recently received reinforcements could not be trusted to hold the line thus when the division came out of
The line in early December both Landon and the 35th core Commander liutenant General Al Mahal D neither of whom could really be considered great Advocates of the division reported their consents to the Army Medical Services it should be noted that this in itself wasn’t exactly a new concern and
An inspection completed by the medical services in August of 1916 had already seen 50 men withdrawn from the division and dispatched to labor units for being unfit to sit serve in the front line oh hold on try again there we are so as we can see from the war diary of the
Assistant director of medical services for the 35th division in November of 1916 an inspection was ordered to look at the fitness of soldiers in the division’s Infantry battalions this inspection subsequently founds that an astonishing 1,439 men were unfit for Frontline service a section a second inspection removed a further batch of soldiers
Bringing the total to 2 , 784 the real reality of the matter simply put was that it was not possible to maintain the bounce and formation in the field now as already has been noted this bab shouldn’t have been a total surprise to senior commanders given the division’s experiences on the somon at
Aris however the experience of fellow of a fellow division should have perhaps alerted the war offers to this issue at a much earlier opportunity the success of the raising of the 35th division had led the war office to commence planning for a second Banton division this new division the
40th was initially formed from the Welsh 100 from the Welsh 119th Brigade the Anglo Scots 120th Brigade and an English 121st Brigade however ultimately only the 119th were accepted as a fully Banton formation the recruiting difficulties that would ultimately come to hold the 35th division took roote far earlier in
The 40th which struggled to find sufficient recruits to form its Anglo Scottish Banton brigades ultimately two Balan each within the 120th and 121st brigades were disbanded and replaced with four battalions transferred from the 39th division as has already been experienced by the 40th division a year earlier subsequent waves of Banton recruits
Simply did not meet the stringent physical requirements needed for active service resulting in many unfit men being sent as replacement to the division a decision that the 40th and now the 30th fifth division found to their cost the men who had been declared unfit from the thir fifth division were with
Were withdrawn and most were substant transferred to the labor call whose lab whose um tap batch we can see on the left hand side the units of the Labor Corp played a vital role in helping to support the work of Front Line divisions by conducting manual labor behind the
Lines but unsurprisingly this was a deeply disappointing development for many bantams who had joined up to serve in the Infantry many were also upset by the seemingly arbitrary decisions that were being made as to which soldiers were fit to serve and which were not instead their places fulfilled from
A variety of different Resources with many men in the initial W of Replacements being transferred from disbanded Yom re regiments for example 18th light infantry the devil’s dwarfs was subsequently re retitled 18th Glasgow yman re Battalion after they they absorb as many of the men from that unit into their
Ranks as the Army Recruitment crisis deepened throughout 1970 many soldiers found themselves transferred from other supporting arms into the ranks of the Infantry 17 flank Shi us Le for example received raft of men primarily drawn from the Royal engineers in the waterways and docs units in October of
1916 from this point onwards the division would accept any recruits who met the Army’s physical standards and although bantams would continue to serve within his ranks until the end of the war the 35th division’s Bantam experiment was officially over to symbolize this new beginning the 35th division’s familiar Bantam [ __ ] emblem
Was replaced with a new one the seven fives a cog like emblem which added up to the number 35 as can SE be seen from the attached photo the division would use this emblem for the rest of the war whil the division was no longer a true
Band of formation I think it’s important to finish the story of the division and for this reason I’ll summ of the division service in 1917 and 1918 over the course of the next couple of slides now even if these changes um even with these changes the division’s future remained fairly uncertain the weeding
Out process took time to accomplish and in fact the last unfit troops were not removed from the division until March of 1917 this left some battalions particularly under strength and for example the 15th cheses in March of 1917 consisted of just 400 men well below its establishment
Figure now on the 17th of March after supporting a French attack to the South and noting the lack of response the the 17th Battalion of the W West Yorkers entered the German front line and reported it to be empty the division conducted a general advance and by the
End of the day for pushed forward two miles an astonishing Distance by 1917 standards the West Yorkers and other units up and down the Allied front had discovered operation Alber the German withdrawal from the front line positions to a new series of fortifications collectively referred to as the Hindenburg line although a general
Pursuit was ordered the 35th division would not take part in these operations and was instead put to work salvaging repairing roads and rail Communications in the area in April as the bef launched its great defense of theara the 35th found itself relegated to the now secondary area of operations on the
Song where they engaged in a variety of small operations around G Gort in July the division found itself in the area around epu where it would spend the next three months it was during this time the seconds hary fuler Parsons of the 14th gler was avoided the Victoria Cross
During a nighttime attacked on The Outpost he was commanding Parson single-handedly held his post despite being horrifically wounded by the blast flamethrower sadly left ten Parsons would not survive his injes but he was awarded the Victoria Cross for his actions now although the division would be largely relegated to secondary duties
During the Great offens of at in 1917 better known to many as the battle of passendale the division itself was involved in a joint angler French attack at the halst um a location just to the north of the eans the diversionary attack was intended to dislocate German forces and
Prevent them from reinforcing their position positions at La Malon and passendale although the Tactical outcome of this battle was inconclusive the successful attack of both of these locations resulted at least in part from the actions of the 35th division at Host regardless the fighting proved to be the
Bloodier since the division service on the S with 368 killed 1,734 wounded and 463 missing between the dates of the 18th to the 25th of October the 35th division would remain in Flanders until March in 1918 but during this time the division in common with the ywf underwent a periods of significant transformation
Simply put by the end of 1917 Britain was running short of Manpower for its armies in early February British divisions were restructured so that their three brigades would now consist of three battalions rather than four this required significant reorganization and resulted in many battalions being disbanded transferred between brigades
And sometimes being transferred to entirely new divisions in the case of the 35th division the 20th lashier fusers and the 23rd manchesters were both disbanded and they and replaced in turn by 19th Duram light infantry which was transferred from the 106th brigades 105th brigades would lose both the 16th
Jers and the 14th glccers who were replaced by a battalion from the north Staffordshire regiments and finally 18th Highland light infantry the devil’s dwarfs they were unfortunately disbanded and Amalgamated with a newly coming Battalion of the Highland light infantry the 12th which had been transferred from the 15th Scottish
Division now the division itself was perhaps fortunate to be out of the line when the German Army launched his spring offensive on the 21st of March 1918 noce known as the Kaiser battle or Kaiser slacked this was an attempt by the German Army to break through the Allied lines utilizing its temporary advantage
In numbers resulting from the withdrawal of Divisions from the Eastern Front the 35th division found itself returning to the s region where it helped stabilize the line and allowed the BF to form a new to form new positions on the Western Bank of the en River it was during these
Actions that the division was awarded his second Victoria Cross when left coling William Herbert Anderson of 12 Highland lights infantry was recognized for his leadership and bravery during a counterattacks in maror on the 25th of March his citation noted that the Counterattack drove the enemy from his position but resulted in this
Very Gallant officer losing his life he died fighting with the Enemy Within the enemy’s lines setting a magnificent example to all of those who are privileged to serve under him a sad Coda to this story is that Anderson was in fact one of four brothers all of whom
Were killed during the first world war following these battles the division was at the Forefront of the great Ally counter offensive known as the 100 day offensive between the 8th of August and the 11th of November the 35th division would be at the Forefront of the of the
Fighting in Flanders ending the war on the Eastern Bank of the river dender just just on the border of Belgium and Holland now the division itself was not destined to form part of the army of occupation that would that would occupy Germany after the first world war but
For the next few months it would be stationed around Santa the division was grantly disbanded over this time and many of the first soldiers to be released from service were desperately needed X miners the division would itself be formly disbanded in April of 1919 over the course of its War service
The would suffer some 23,91606 in fact proved to be consistently effective and others consistently ineffective but for many the answer lies somewhere in between these two extremes Paddy Griffiths one of the finest historians of the British Army in the first world war considered this question of what he referred to as
The assault bear head of the bef in this study he covered the service of the 35th division but noted that unlike many of its contempories the division was consistently underused as an attacking formation by contrast Peter Simkins noted in his stud of British divisions during the 100 day is offensive that a
Host of supposedly average divisions employed a range of really quite skillful small Unity tactics during this campaign included amongst this number was the previously unfancied 35th division thus the 35th division during the first world war is open to some interpretation even if we accept that the division fought well in the early
Battles of the s in 196 and in The crucial actions of 1918 we must also recognize that the division declines in infectiveness over over the course of 1916 and it was ultimately rendered combat and effective by the end of that year during the course of 1917 it was
Regarded by regarded by many as the darkest year for the Allies the 35th was relegated to a series of secondary areas of operation and its absence from the great battles of 19 most notably IRS and thir deep is noticeable ultimately whilst we would be right to consider the formation of the
Bantam unit as a Triumph for equality allowing large numbers of soldiers to f for their country the challenges of sustaining such a formation in the field could and should have been recognized if the British army spend more time thinking about how they were going to sustain the units in the field
And less time about whether soldiers under average hype would be capable of fighting arguably the 35th division might have achieved a lot more nonetheless the bantams of the 35th and 40th divisions more than played their part during the first World War I do believe Mark has just
Frozen if I correct unless he’s had a massive pause so do stay with us a second while we while we do get him um get him back don’t don’t go anywhere just yet he’s coming back uh he’s I think I think his PC crashed
Um so do do stay um for a moment because we’ love to have some questions as well that you can ask him um but I’m glad that you have all enjoyed it h that is a a great great thing while we waiting how about what we think about questions to
Ask as well so do think about some questions to ask because we would love to um love love to ask them so rather rather than you this time wely let you know can definitely think about I’m thinking question myself so hopefully you you lot are as
Well and and like or if you any questions for me about hisan do while we wait please do ask him I’m more happy to to answer anything while we while we do wait for he for Mar to to come back but I am reformed that he is on his way so
Don’t don’t worry about that the problems when you on technology uh certainly certainly is I’ll put the banner one while I wait do you haven’t done already do like and subscribe the video um mainly so you can reach more people uh we we have had some issues with our
Um what we’re look for ticking service because we had to move away from event right onto ticket tayor so which probably impacted the my people will normally reach so do do like and share if you can because we love to see numbers uh even higher later
On also do subscribe because we are we close to 150 subscribers was 500 I’ll do apologize that you have to stare at me for for the last few moments I not not anyone really wants to have uh on that evening but I hopefully he’ll be back soon I think his PC crashed
So are there any questions people would like to put in the chat so when he comes we we can ask him those questions when he comes back ah he’s back there we go well night it does feel like I’m thir with these talks although at least end of the
Presentation and not Midway through that’s true this is this has happened before so this is uh the last one yeah I’m moving house for the next one I think he bought a new he bought a new pc and then uh by new house yeah absolutely um I think we basically were on the
Final slides weren’t we which was just um which was just some books I think yes about the books yes yeah B basically or the only thing to add at that stage is just simply to say if you do want to find out a bit more about the Bantam
Divisions or the service of the Bantam divisions in the first world war there are a few different things there are a few different books out there um if anyone has any questions about that I’m more than happy to answer and um it’s Michael’s got my details so if anyone
Has wants to email in then more than happy to answer any questions brilliant I’ll just add that yeah if you do want to ask uh any questions or you want to take things further than if you email just just the history indors email for example or myself uh we can definitely
Pass it on to Mark and and and whatnot so pleas please do so if that’s the case because we we we love to kind of Pary things on um and conversation start those kind debates as well and conversations and kind of those links so please do um yeah that was absolutely fantastic talk
I I knew nothing about that Division and their involvement as well and to kind of think about this formation to their to their to their disbandment in 1919 as well is as as as you pointed out things to think about we have got a question already in I mean people were saying you
Know how much they love to talk Bo just I’ll put them up there so you can see thank you people have L to talk um but we have got a question which I think is a a good interesting question as well uh you may have covered this but did anything change after world
One about height and weight limits did this change anything or did things go back to what they were were before this is a really good question and um I know I know Dr Wendy so hi Wendy um um really is a really good question which I don’t have a particularly great
Answer for I think essentially what my understanding is that effectively sort of the sort of the various kind of physical requirements for the Army went back pretty much to normal at at when the second at the end of the first World War I mean effectively what happens is
That the that the British army having grown to a huge size by the end of of the first world war rapidly starts to shrink and reduce um and so as a result I think the Army could go back to being quite juicy about who who it was looking
For and I mean the actual kind of inter War history of the British army is really interesting and and probably a little bit stative truth be told and I think when you consider everything that happened in that period like the Great Recession the various kind of so kind of
Social Challenges that were taking place in Britain at that time I think it’s not surprising um that that that occurred um and that you know sort of yeah it’s a it’s yeah it’s difficult one to answer and and truth be told I mean it’s the wrong War for me but even with the
Second world war I’m not quite sure what the requirements were but by the same standards it was a very different Army but by that that stage you know there was much less of a focus on Infantry units and much broader appreciation I mean for a start you have entirely new
Service in the form of the RO Air Force which of course has existed in 1914 I’ve just noticed one of the comments from Mike Taylor’s Mike Taylor and yeah absolutely I I would really inv endorse um his book no bad soldiers it’s absolutely brilliant and covers the
Service of the 40th division really well and it yeah it’s absolutely definitely recommended I just couldn’t fit it on the side Mike that’s that’s brilliant I put I’ll put that there so people can people can follow it when if they once they get to that that that U Good Question here
Actually from uh Allan do the Germans the same the same so this is a really interesting I feel really awful because I say this is a really interesting question and then I don’t know the answer um but yeah it’s I did look into this and I also looked into the French
Army as well because me I so I’m always really interested to see kind of what both the French and Germans are doing and obviously accepting that cuts off a huge number of combatants in other theaters as well but from my I think from my knowledge I think it it’s an
Interesting one because obviously the German Army was structured so very differently from the British army you have this really extensive system of conscription so actually a significantly larger portion of the population had some experience of military service and could be called up really rapidly to increase the size of of the army that’s
Very different with the British army because they’re having to effectively grow an army from scratch um you know you have the regular army you have the territorial Force territorial Force isn’t I I I think is really maligned and and is unfairly maligned and both by commentators at the time and then some
Historians in the time that taken past since that um but it’s I think it was it proved to be a very you know very effective formation and actually some of the best divisions of the first world war were territorial formations but for some it took quite a long time to kind
Of get them into position position to be able to get into the fight and in fact by the time that kind of most of the territorial divisions are starting to deploy you’re also seen this deployment of the First new Army divisions which gives you an idea of kind of how how
Long that process could be for some units um I’ve completely drifted off the question that Allan asked so I do apologize so the honest answer is I’m not sure but there probably wasn’t quite the same requirement to bend the rules in the German Army at least in 1914 and
1915 uh compared to the British army really had had a lot of work and really needed to catch up to become a viable fighting force effectively yeah that’s certainly maybe something for further research and uh and what not Le to look into that I mean
I’ve got a few questions I mean I as you know I’m my as a historian I I look at the Civil War and urban town planning so that’s very very different different background I have uh really but I’m interested kind of this attitude that kept com throughout talk of because they
Because because they’re they’re smaller in height that they have less lesser you know less of Bravery or less of stout Hearts this kind of this kind of attitude and I wondered do you know why is that the case why where’s this come from is it is is has it Origins anywhere
Or was it just because of kind of very meristic roran Society I I just wanted to know if that’s a reason I think again it’s a really good question question I think I don’t want to say it was a more Prejudice time because I think Prejudice
Is Prejudice I think it we in some respects we’re more aware of prejudice nowadays than we were before but I think it’s always existed there was I mean the kind of the periods of the like the early 20th late 19th century I think there were there’s some really interesting kind of
Competing ideas that are going play going taking place within the Western World in particular around the right you know what what what is the right stuff both in terms of humanity but also in terms of like fighting soldiers and armies and a lot I mean sometimes the kind of the pre the
Sort of the European armies in the kind of periods between kind of 1900 to 1914 they’re often kind of lambasted as if kind of sleep to use the phrase of one historian sleep walking into conflicts but the reality is actually they spend a significant amount of time thinking
About how they are going to fight the great next great Continental War um which and they and they look into this in lots of different ways certainly in terms of technology and in tactics um and you know some some of those some of those things work some of those things
Really don’t work but underpinning this as well is this idea of like sort of our soldiers going to be able to cope with the rigors of Modern Combat and there was and there was genuine concern in some corners of certainly of the British Army and and I would also argue in other
European armies that there was a a significant concern that that your average Soldier just wouldn’t be able to cope with modern conflict it would just be it would be just too terrible a thing and therefore the response to that is that you have to indoctrinate soldiers
To fight in a certain way and different armies take different approaches to this so in Britain there’s much more of a focus on putting greater responsibility on Junior soldiers and individual fieldcraft and that’s very much based on their experiences of the B War if you compare that to Germany for example
Right up to 1914 even though there’s quite an internal debate within the German Army for much of you know for most of most officers their belief is actually you have to you know you need to keep your soldiers under close command and the best way to do that is
To keep them in kind of big formations that where everyone’s you know within close distance to each other where everyone can effectively everyone can hear you shouting orders and that and that they’re able they’re going to be able to kind of just attack attack attack and almost kind of disregard
Their casualties in order to achieve their objectives and all of the European armies go kind of Swing backwards and forwards on what the right approach is to that and I think this then the decision about actually not just kind of what the right moral fiber and mental capacity of
Soldiers is on is like is considered but then beyond that as well I think it’s actually kind of the physical condition of soldiers as well so yeah I think it it kind of falls into all prejudices about sort of oh well you know if they’re smaller or lighter or different
Gens or whatever or you know they’re not manly enough you know they’re not going to be able to cope as soldiers and of course that’s ridiculous because human beings are incredibly resilient creatures regardless of their kind of physical attributes um but yeah a lot of these prejudices die really hard and
They really and yeah and a lot of soldiers kind of really faced this and certainly in the case of the British army as well there was this long-standing debate about the quality of recruits I mean I I talked about this in my last talk and I covered this a
Little bit in this talk as well about you know Victorian Edward in Britain was a really unhealthy place to live and lots of people were really undernourished I mean you hear these colloquial C from like firsthand accounts of soldiers joining up in in this kind of period who kind of you know
Even after a few weeks of Army Food which is in particularly nutritious or great they actually kind of physically grow in height and stature because they’re actually getting the first kind of s like regular sustained food intake in their lives so it’s not surprising that there were like big chunk of the
Population just just weren’t really fit for for you know service and where this I think where the bantams come into this there were of course these communities where you do have like a lot of deprivation but still very fit and active people they just happen to be
Shorter than average and you know five foot in five foot or five foot two inches it’s very short by today’s standards but it’s still pretty short even by the standards of the earlier 20th century as well yeah and certainly yeah interesting isn’t it I think you’re right and there’s there’s lot there’s
Lot of factors that play play into the into it as well which I think is interesting something that I might have to you know do a bit of thing myself because Victorian soy yeah certainly very very interesting in that way we got another question uh before I got got
Those questions but people don’t hear my questions um so then thank thank you for your talk but um do you think there was not enough time to catch up on the 194 fitzway report so I I’ll I’ll preface this by saying I’m not hugely familiar with the with the Fitzroy report
Although I have come across it I think yeah I think it’s an interesting one I think there’s a whole there’s a lot of there are a lot of Investigations particularly in the British army between the kind of the end of the B War and the beginning of the first world war and
There are kind of a whole series of different commissions there so the kind of the more famous ones are things like the ISA report that really looks into kind of the structure of the British army how Dan’s reforms that bring about the kind of creation of the ter ioral
Force and again a big reorganization of the army um and I think part of the problem was that the that many kind much of the British army was really quite idiosyncratic in the sense that you could create you could create sort of um I won’t use the word Doctrine because
There’s a big debate within this period of study about whether the British army even had Doctrine at this time but certainly in terms of kind of regulations and um tactical approaches and things like that it really varied between different bits of the army um some some parts of the army were more
Conservative than others um sometimes it came down to individual offices you know actually if the colel doesn’t think it’s worth learning about Marksmanship the red you know the Battalion doesn’t learn about Marksman that doesn’t practice his markmanship and spends his time running around the field instead you know so
That and there’s there’s kind of a lack of oversight within that and so when you look at things like the Fitzroy report and the recommendations that come into that they often filter down through the Army in kind of very different ways and some units really take this on board and
Some units won’t and it and it varies tremendously across the Army not to mention the fact that lots of units particularly those serving overseas are you know they can be located in really kind of sparse locations I mean I was looking at kind of where all the various
Different um battalions of the British army redeployed from at the beginning of the first world war and if you look at like the Essex regimen for example they had a battalion half of which was on Marius and half of which was in South Africa so you’ve not you’ve got to bring both
Those kind of bits of the of the of the regimen get sorry the Battalion together to then ship it back to Europe but imagine trying to kind of develop to kind of a systematic system of training between when you’ve got units which are located like you know thousands of miles
Away from each other um you know it is really tricky yeah completely I completely agree I imagine the communication issues as well that that arise from from from division has spread that that far away as well especially in that time as well I know you’ve got obviously you’ve got
The improvements in in communication but still I mean it’s still time yes it take time um I I’ve got one more question we end my question is probably a stupid question because I don’t really know but you said he said in your talk that they they formed in is like quite early in
1914 I think that November was it 1914 and they first deployed at the end of 1915 is that is that quite is that quite a period quite a long period of time for for division to be deploy it feels like it’s a long for me anyway it feels like
It’s a a long period of time or is that quite the normal for division to kind of have that time to to to be deployed yeah it’s it’s I think it’s answer is a little bit I suppose it’s yes and no in the sense that it is quite it’s it’s
Probably longer than the average of of most divisions but probably not by much okay and I think the reason and there’s probably kind of two different reasons for this I mean I’m not an expert on the new on the new armies and I wouldn’t pretend to be my kind of knowledge tends
To kind of focus a little bit before this period but the there’s obviously you know so you have this immediate kind of reaction within Britain and you see this Mass wave of recruiting that comes up with particularly with the first kind of the you know K1 and K2 those first 12
Divisions and some of those are are kind of deploying relatively quickly you know they’re being formed in sort of you know September October of 1914 and then they’re on the Western Front by about the middle of the next year and when you consider it that you’re take you are
Literally taking I mean it feels like almost a bit tried to say this but you’re taking from civilians to soldiers you know most yeah much of the Army is in France or coming back from the Empire to to serve in France there’s a lack of instructors there’s a lack of suitable
Officer candidates so you’re having to recruit a lot of Junior officers in particular from scratch they’re digging out um senior officers from all over the place I mean a lot of officers of the Indian army for example who are on lead in Britain in 1914 get swallowed up by
The British Expedition Force because there’s a desperate need to find officers others have been you know you’re getting retired officers in their 60s and 70s who being called out to drill new recruits you know so it’s a it’s a huge um it’s a huge process of growing an army from scratch and not
Just growing it but finding equipment finding um supplies finding you know all of those kind of things to actually make it VI a viable formation yeah yeah 100% it’s just one those things where when when when you kind of just I think in your mind you
See that’s a year you think because in your mind you think the Army gets deployed really really quickly you know think like sign up they they get sent off like in two weeks because that’s how sometimes the you know the P lot of public history kind of presents it
Sometimes so I thought yeah that’s that’s a that’s a long time but as you said it was it was you know it was generally kind of linked to similar to others what have a question we end on this last question then because put a question so I end on this one um which
Is interesting um so ISAC Rosenberg was both Jewish an a Batman um does his poetry in any Tren just cover the experiences of them or was it kind of focus on just the kind of universal experience of of the war I’m gonna do it again and I’m really sorry for this so I
I’m going to I’m so I’m going to fully admit I haven’t I I’m aware of Isaac Rosenberg I haven’t read any of his poetry specifically I think this is a fault of mine if I’m being completely honest I’m not I I I generally I tend to avoid the
War poets that makes me a really bad person because actually it’s an important part of understanding the kind of the culture of the first world war and the kind of the experiences of those combatants it’s something I need to get better at M I think essentially um I’d
Be hugely surprised if it was an influence even if it’s not kind of covering specific influences I’d be hugely surprised if it if his experiences as as you say it’s both as you know as a anom is would have I would I’d be amazed if it didn’t have some
Influence on his poetry at all but I’m afraid to say Allan I don’t I don’t know the answer to that and I’m really sorry I was actually no no at all but it’s a bit it’s a massive topic as well is there’s L anything’s going on so we
We’ll let you off thank you I mean and to pick up on kind of the points you made earlier as well I I do think kind of the I mean I think the bantams in general but kind of particularly the 35th Division I think it really does I
Think it could really benefit from having that reinvestigation so there’ve been so there’ve been some great um some really good B like kind of um unit histories of various bantom units I mean one of the ones I would have mentioned if if my if my computer hand kicks me
Out uh would have been um Alan mcg’s book on the cheshier bantams which is a really good kind of Battalion history of those two units but actually works as a really good divisional history as well likewise the kind of the post-war divisional history that um was written
By officers of the 35th division it’s now published through Naval and military press again it’s it’s a really good resource it’s really well written it’s what in my opinion one of the better divisional histories that written in that period but it’s still a unit I think that could really benefit from
Further academic investigation I think particularly around things like kind of morale in particular I think would be it would make a really fascinating study because it’s such a unique examp well it’s such an unusual example and like ways like again I’m one of these people who’s a little bit I I combat
Effectiveness I think it there’s always the risk it turns into a bit of kind of a top trumps of like you know sort of all this division is better than this Division and all the rest of it but I think kind of investigating kind of some
Of those if you like some of the slurs puts against the kind of pal sorry against the bantom division you know that they’re ill disciplines that they’re you know they run away from the fighting and you know there’s there plenty of evidence that kind of disagrees with that and I think it’d be
Really good for someone to kind of look at that with a kind of a sort of a neutral View and kind of like and you know critically assess really the accuracy of both those statements or you know what caused that I think he would I think he would be
Really fascinating study which which I’m not doing so that’s definitely out there for somebody else to do so um yeah I think they definitely it’s definitely a unit that could that could even though there’s some great stuff out there about it I think it could definitely benefit from some further investigation although
As we’ve heard already um Mike’s work on the 40th Division and 119th brigades I think he’s doing a really good job of that within the 40th division framework we just need someone to be looking at that from the 35th division as well 100% I think you also I mean I’ll be
Fascinated to see as well about that kind of public perception of you know of of of them and the slurs that are used and where they come from whether they originate from was their causality or was it just you know just slander wherever it is it’ be interesting to see
What actually it was so Food For Thought let’s say that food for thought and it was good this is what do we always create more questions this is what we do this is what we love doing so um they’re brilliant anyway we should probably been the end of the questions there because
Um yeah we we’ve we’ve gone through a few and certainly been been enjoyable and um yeah thank you Mark for that it’s absolutely fantastic me everyone here said how much they’ve they’ve they’ve they’ve loved it um how much they enjoyed it how much they learned from it
So thank you so much thank you everyone who’s been here as well we thank you for all your contributions and your questions because they’ve been really exciting and very kind of in-depth questions as well um so thank you for your questions um we had we do have
Talks coming up in two weeks time and talks coming up throughout the until winter to do make sure you keep keep you keep your eye out for those talks as well we would love to have you along for those talks as well but thank you again to you mark because it’s been a
Fantastic talk I’ve learned so much from it and um yeah I I definitely will have to be doing my own kind of investigations and hobby looking because I it’s certainly SP interest in me so thank you very much and we will um say bye for for now so awesome thank you all cheers
1 Comment
Excellent talk Mark, apologies for not seeing it live. I found your observation that little was done at the time of the 35th's establishment to how the division was to be sustained once battle was joined. I think the same could be said regarding the modern day British Army as a whole. As for the Bantam's, so for the British Army of the 2020's. The more things change, eh??