Rwanda Rebellion, Reparations And Romance | Pod Save The Uk

It’s groundhog day at Westminster as Rishi Sunak’s Safety of Rwanda Bill returns to the Commons – will all the talk of rebellion come to anything this time? Nish and Coco discuss whether an opinion poll in the Telegraph was used to try to influence the debate and encourage the rebels. Plus they ask how it is that the UK has granted asylum to Rwandans AFTER signing a deal that deems the country safe.

Labour MP Clive Lewis and journalist Laura Trevelyan went on a fascinating journey together, after discovering a shared connection on the island of Grenada….where his ancestors were enslaved and hers were slave owners. They discuss whether countries involved in the slave trade should pay reparations…and what goes into the traditional Grenadian meal of Oil Down.

Find out why Manchester United fan Nish is full of praise for Liverpool fans, and what Avanti West Coast Trains have done to annoy Coco. Plus there’s some disagreement over whether we should be helping lonely Pod Save the Uk listeners find love…Pod Shag the Uk anyone?

Pod Save the UK is a Reduced Listening production for Crooked Media.

Contact us via email: PSUK@reducedlistening.co.uk
WhatsApp: 07514 644572 (UK) or + 44 7514 644572
Insta: https://instagram.com/podsavetheuk
Twitter: https://twitter.com/podsavetheuk
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@podsavetheuk
Facebook: https://facebook.com/podsavetheuk
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/podsavetheworld

Guests:
Laura Trevelyan, campaigner and former
Clive Lewis, Labour MP for Norwich South

Useful links:
https://www.persephonica.com/shows/heirs-of-enslavement

CHAPTERS:
0:00 Pre-titles
1.08 Traitors secrets
2.55 Coco’s boiled egg life hack
3.53 The Rwanda Safety Bill
5.25 Telegraph opinion poll
12.00 Ad break
12.03 Guests: Clive Lewis and Laura Trevelyan
13.29 Clive on Rwanda
15.05 Yemen air strikes
17.30 US elections
17.56 Laura finds out her ancestors were slavers
20.53 Britain’s compensation debt
26:30 Reparations
35.14 Clip: Sir Hilary Beckles
39.49 Ad break
40:06 Hero of the week: Liverpool fans
40.32 Clip: Sven-Goran Eriksson
41:44: Villain of the week: Avanti West Coast
43:44 Clip: Traitors US
46:53 Pod Shag the Uk dating club

Video credits:
Sky News
Heirs of Enslavement / Persephonica
The Traitors US / Peacock

Photo credits:
Associated Press
George Charles Beresford
@hmtreasury
Laura Trevelyan
Heirs of Enslavement / Persephonica
The Daily Telegraph
University of West Indies

Inspired by Crooked Media’s ‘Pod Save America’, their mission is to find solutions to Britain’s political problems – and have a laugh while they’re doing it. Subscribe now so you don’t miss the video podcast, or subscribe here to listen each week:

http://go.crooked.com/PodSaveTheUK

Crooked Media believes that we need a better conversation about politics, culture, and the world around us—one that doesn’t just focus on what’s broken, but what we can do to fix it. We are a media network that showcases stories, voices, and opportunities for activism that inform, entertain, and inspire action, because it’s up to all of us to do our part to build a better world.

That’s it. End of mission.

Learn more about us at crooked.com

#clivelewis #lauratrevelyan #rishisunak #rwanda #leeanderson #lordfrost #thedailytelegraph ##thetraitors #traitorsUS #johnbercow #svengoraneriksson #avanti

Hi this is pods the UK I’m Nish Kamar and I’m Coco card and like the turd that won’t flush the government’s Rwanda policy is back and stinking up Westminster plus should countries that got rich off the back of slavery be forced to pay reparations yes we mean you Britain MP Clive Lewis and

Journalist Laura trellion will be here to tell us about the fascinating Journey that they went on together after discovering a shared connection on the island of Grenada where his ancestors were enslaved and hers were slave owners Hi Nish how are you very good Coco how are you I’m good I feel like we haven’t you know chatted how how’s everything well that sounds like you’ve heard something’s gone terribly wrong in my personal life but I feel like we haven’t talked yeah is everything okay how are you you you look

Bad but what what have been up to what what’s going on um I I’m struggling to make conversation with everybody this week because over the weekend I did uh the kind of bonus podcast after show discussion program for a show called the traitors and for people outside the UK

The traitors is pretty much all people in the UK are talking about there is an American version that’s hosted by Alan [ __ ] I think but the UK version is massive hosted by National Treasure called Claudia winlan and I did uh the podcast over the weekend that’s also a

TV show hosted by my friend Ed gamble where we discuss the latest episode and because of that I am two episodes ahead oh wow one of our producers has already said he’s not speaking to me because there’s a danger of me revealing spoilers about it you know have you ever

Had that thing where you take out £300 from the cash point and then you have to carry it to wherever you’re going why are you taking out £300 sometimes I need cash sometimes I just do all right for legal reasons we can’t go into anything further but you know when you walk it’s

Definitely not buying drugs okay everyone everyone just leave it alone up anyway listen sometimes you got to pay a plumber you’ve got to pay a trade and they like cash anyway what I’m saying is trade or someone who trades e so when you when you get the money out of the

Cash point you know you you feel you feel the burden of exactly and I’m wondering is that how you feel you’ve got the National Treasure it’s obviously yeah I’ve got I carry secrets for a program that everybody’s obsessed with this is very tense I I spent a lot of

Like early years of stand it obviously doesn’t happen so much nowadays being paid in cash and that the walk home with 200 quid in your pocket especially because at that point you’re like if I get robbed not only have I got robbed but I’m also not going to eat this week

Was obviously was very tense I remember saying to one of my mates once this assistant aside I was like you guess what I figured out yeah what you do is you boil eggs and then you put them back in the box and then you always have hardboiled eggs and I just remember that

Moment what you thought you you you thought You’ done a life hack yeah I just remember that moment of telling everyone C that’s just called boiling eggs no but come on doing doing them all at once and then putting them in loads of people do that loads of people do

That well I was really proud of myself and just that moment where you see their face and you’re like oh no oh God this is Coco K’s New section life hacks if you’re boiling one egg why not boil three and then you have two other boiled

Eggs next time you want boiled eggs I actually do the whole batch of six just to let you know but it’s really important it’s really it’s really important that you label it hardboiled because otherwise someone else will go and think that’s otherwise you’re just going to otherwise you’re just going to peel an

Egg for more life hack stay tuned to podo the UK has so much political Capital ever been spent defending a policy is weak unworkable and frankly deranged as the the government’s plan to send would be Asylum Seekers to the tiny Central African country of Rwanda rishy sunak

Safety of Rwanda bill has been back in the spotlight as it reached the committee stage of its Passage through the commons cue the usual Grand standing by factions on the right and left of the conservative party pushing competing agendas and threatening number 10 with Rebellion we’re recording this on

Wednesday and as things stand the rebels have given the Prime Minister Rishi sunak something of a bloody nose with up to 60 of his MPS voting for aend ments to the bill last night but none of the Amendments which Rebels think are needed to make it harder for the bill to be

Challenged in the courts actually passed so sunak he’s got what he wanted but at what cost two of his party’s Deputy chairman Lee Anderson Brendan Clark Smith and a ministerial Aid Jane Stevenson quit their roles to vote with the rebels by the time you’re listening

To this we’ll know how many of them were willing to defy the party whips and vote against the bill itself it’s worth saying that siding with a rebel amendment is very different from voting with with the opposition against your own leader because that would be torpedoing the entire Flagship Bill and

Throwing his government into freefall but Coco I want to take you back uh to the start of the week and the extraordinary front page of the conservatives supporting Daily Telegraph whose headline would have had their Tory readership absolutely choking on their Monday morning cornflakes because it

Read that the Tories are facing a 1997 general election style Wipeout and it was based on a huge poll by yugov which predicted 120 seat labor majority with 11 current Tory cabinet ministers losing their seats and it is worth digging into where this poll has come from and what

It could possibly be seen to be achieving Politico has been reporting that it was commissioned by a group of Tory donors called the conservative Britain Alliance uh who are working with the Tory peer Lord Frost so you can actually Google the conservative Britain Alliance it just finds one entry on the

Entire internet which is the telegraph article so it does look from the outside at least like this organization has been set up by Lord Frost or at least with Lord Frost’s backing to try and [ __ ] with Rishi sunak essentially and that begs the question why would a conservative group be pushing data that

Essentially suggest that the part is heading for an electoral Armageddon so the the speculation is that Lord Frost and this group conservative Britain Alliance they want the conservatives to go more right-wing so they released this data that effectively says they need to go more rightwing in order to avoid this

Extinction event so that data was released on Monday Monday is the start of what we were talking about earlier all these amendments and all these conversations around the Rwanda bill so it’s not unreasonable to suggest that this was all timed it was all planned and effectively it was to scare people

Into voting for these amendments to scare parliamentarians and even constituents to emailing their MP and saying like you need to make this Rwanda Bill be harder and tougher you know I think it’s important to mention that the the purpose of this bill that we’re discussing this week is so that Rwanda

Is designated a safe country but you know home office has granted Asylum to people coming from Rwanda so everyone that’s actually working with Asylum applications knows that this is completely farcical the I the newspaper has been reporting that the home office has been granting Asylum to people from

Rwanda even as the government is trying to declare it a safe country so we’ve got on the one hand rishy suak saying Rwanda is a completely safe country and on the other hand his own home office turning around and saying well obviously we’ll Grant Asylum to people from Rwanda

Because it’s not a safe country so it’s the whole thing is kind of a nonsensical feedback Lop for stupidity oh yeah no it is completely nonsensical I mean one of the things I found you know really alarming about this this conversation about the poll was that it it was the

Front page Splash on the telegraph right this is the sort of stuff that consumers of media hate the idea that press actually is no longer objective and it’s just the mouthpiece of whoever it might be that is the that is the the heart of the problem with the British press and

It’s it makes me really sad because it’s like you’re not even trying anymore to hide it and I should point out as well that yugov was unhappy with the telegraph’s interpretation yeah we should say the poll wasn’t sus but it was the telegraph’s interpretation of the poll and that’s what you go picked

Them up yes exactly and there’s always a concern with things like this I mean like you know my father-in-law again doesn’t share the politics of the telegraph but likes the cricket coverage so he occasionally picks up uh a Telegraph and you know this front page will be on kitchen counters it will be

In the news stand there will be people that will take it on face value and they will genuinely believe that there are huge sways of the British public that wants this Rwanda policy to go ahead that want us to be more xenophobic and more little englande and more kind of

Isolated and actually that’s not 100% true and in a way could you could argue that by filtering out these stories they’re almost manifacturing this belief that this is what the majority wants but is it actually true is that the case well what I would say is Rich sunak has made the

Rwanda Bill the kind of central piece of Flagship legislation of his government and it has not worked in terms of improving his standing in National pars going into an election year it hasn’t worked at all because I mean I I just can’t escape this idea that when you

Can’t afford to heat your house or feed your children you couldn’t give less of a [ __ ] about this kind of stuff and I think that again it’s the conservative party being having their agenda set by a very small group of its own voter base and our conser conservative voters are

Embracing very very dangerous rhetoric the afd is on the rise in Germany G Builders is winning elections in Holland the conservative party should be taking a stand against the lapsing of center right politics into the grip of the hard right but it is not because of Craven weak-minded cowards like rishy sunak

Exactly and as much as we can get drawn into this kind of Westminster watching it’s important not to lose of the human cost of all of this politicking with the recent stormy weather abating this weekend saw the first channel Crossing uh for nearly a month the home office

Confirmed that 124 people crossed the channel in three boats on Saturday for some though it ended in tragedy five people died on Sunday in French Waters after boarding a boat near the resort of wio I mean it’s just horrible and like the government will say we need to stop

The boats but they can’t stop the boats so I don’t know it’s we’re going to talk to Clive and Laura later and they’re talking about about the you know legacies of slavery and by extension the legacies of colonialism and one thing I often think about all the time was like

If you don’t want people to come here you could maybe make their homes safe places to live by not participating in wars or not participating in the exploitation of their resources or even just the climate like you know stop pumping fossil fuels and carbon into the air burning fossil fuels sorry and and

Pumping out carbon into the air to make these places more hospitable and actually I think think here’s a Tory slogan hate ethnics love cycling what do you think what you’re tried to appeal to racist conservative voters trick them we can trick them by saying you could stop immigrants coming

By getting uh green policies more green policies uh International Aid peace white by going green Yeah Joining us now in the studio are our guests Laura travelan former BBC journalist and the labor MP Clive Lewis they co-present a fascinating podcast called Heirs of enslavement about their shared connection to the shameful days of British slave ownership in the Caribbean and this is uh I I guess don’t

Call it a comeback for Clive our very first guest actually in actually in the studio it’s nice to see you yeah loveely to see you as well but yeah I’ve just come back from Antarctica a parliamentary trip there looking at climate issues um geopolitical issues so

Yeah it’s been all all systems go and Laura is joining us from New York City big would you like to tell the listeners what you did as a British person returning to her motherland well Nish Coco Club I had to celebrate with the full English this morning cling up as we speak Americans

Think that black pudding is the most disgusting thing on the planet so I did they’re not completely wrong not they’re not totally fried blood but when you have it with the bacon and the egg come on yeah amazing I have never had it in my life what you never had black your

Life the thought of it just just fills me with Dread for non British listeners I’m not sure for non British listeners black pudding is I mean it is it’s a fried blood cake yeah yeah it’s all the bits of the pig that you don’t really want to eat listen we absolutely love

The podcast and we’re looking forward to chatting about it but before we do that Clive we just been discussing the Rwanda bill and I know that you’re leaving us as soon as we finish this record to go to the commons to vote on it um how do you see that vote playing

Out I think um the government the government will get their way I mean we what we saw the rebels defeated last night frankly I was disgusted listening to the rebels I think millions of other people in this country are look there is nothing wrong with discussing immigration policy in this country I

Mean it’s all we ever seem to discuss in this country since when rush but there’s nothing wrong with that but I draw the line at people who want to now unpick and overturn uh human rights legislation that was born out of the genocide of the Holocaust and frankly genocides that

Took place for centuries before that and we look around Europe we look at the rise of fascism we look at what’s happening in Germany and it does feel like a slippery slope and I feel that we have to draw a line in the sand on our International obligations to human

Rights legislation which is so important um and if we don’t do that well we can look around the world you know the Middle East and see what happens when that legislation isn’t there or isn’t able to protect people we need it and this is what that’s about you know it’s

Connected to Empire it’s also connected to here and now and I think people should be very alert and aware of what’s going on I know it’s very easy to always say you know oh they sound like fascists um unfortunately we’re getting to that point uh maybe we’ve passed it and I

Think people should be very aware of what these MPS are trying to do because it affects us all not just Asylum Seekers um and we should also just briefly say as a former member of the Armed Forces who served in the Middle East uh I’m fascinated to know what you

Think about the current situation where the UK has joined the US in carrying out Military strikes against houy Targets in Yemen it’s complicated yeah um one of the things that I found as a member of parliament is there’s this uh Abraham said if you think the only tool you have

At your disposal is a hammer then you begin to look at everything like it’s a nail and I think the the use of air strikes I’ve just I’ve only been in Parliament 10 years and I think there have been three different three four different air strikes that we’ve been

Part of probably more if you include drone attacks and it just think you look at the way the world is at the moment and you think I think there might be a better way of going about solving some of the world’s problems I’m not a pacifist and I understand there are some

Very scary and dangerous organiz ations and countries out there some of them are there because we were over there and have done things but I think we need to think very carefully as a country looking at the escalation that’s taking place over there whether this is the

Right thing to do um in these circumstances I have questions we didn’t even get to debate it before it happened that’s problematic that’s the situation in the US and the UK as well because there’s been a huge amount of consternation um about Biden’s decision to bomb without consuling Congress Laura

You’re obviously a journalist based in the US how is that playing out for him at the moment well it’s just so complicated for him because the left of his party is already up in arms about the Americans unequivocal support for Israel in the Gaza campaign against Hamas and now you have what’s happened

With the houthis I mean the administration is saying that it has a right to defend itself against attacks but I guess the wider picture is is just as Clive is saying you know it’s a scary world and the way that the Israeli Palestinian conflict has now extended

Into the proxies of Iran and the allies of Hamas now you have Hezbollah you have the houthis taking pot shots it’s very alarming and it feels so finely poised I know Jake Sullivan the president’s National Security adviser in Davos is talking about a time for diplomacy but

It feels like that window it’s really really running out also in the US as well you’ve got the bizarre situation where Trump saying you know I’m doing the hand I had no Wars on my watch I had no Wars and I think Biden needs to be careful it could be a close election

Race with trump it looks like Trump’s going to be the candidate and if if Biden alienates the left Progressive voters and they simply don’t turn out for him that’s problematic for all of us frankly so you know Biden’s got to be careful here he can’t just assume that

People progressives are going to they might not they’re obviously not going to vote for Trump but they might not turn out for him and he needs them let’s turn to the podcast been slain uh Laura I believe the story of this this whole project started where you discovering about your own lineage

So tell us about that and then also I’d like to understand how you two Linked UP yes oh my gosh well I I’ll give you the you know the very brief the 45 second version but essentially um University College London put online H about 10 years ago the database of people in

Britain who claimed if you can believe this claimed compensation for the loss of their property when slavery was abolished the property in that this case being their slaves and when that database came out I was in the US I didn’t look at it I read some story in the newspaper which said

Oh database crashes as everybody logs on to try and find out whether they were compensated but some years later a family email begins someone says oh travelan if you log in the UCL database it says that travelan were compensated because we owned enslaved Africans in all these plantations in Grenada in the

Caribbean and Lori you’re a journalist you you’re supposed to be a historian what do we can do about this I was like oh dear God I have no idea so you this was never spoken about in your family no no one had ever mentioned that because it’s so classically British under the

Rug once abolition happened in 1834 it was as if slavery had never happened and the whole narrative is Rewritten and oh Britain abolished slavery we led the world aren’t we fantastic not we were up to it in our necks turning a a tragedy into a Triumph isn’t it and George

McCauley travelan this historian my great-grandfather his bestselling uh English social history so he in his histories he celebrates abolition of slavery as being you know founding principle of 19th century liberal Britain doesn’t mention that he is descended from enslavers in the Caribbean so Clive is of Grenadian

Descent and we figured out that Clive Dad was born close to the bosu sugar cane plantation in fact we went there together for the podcast and that was part owned by my ancestors and so we talked to historians in Grenada who said well Grenada is such a small island you

Know it’s just over 100,000 people that Liv there travelan part owned 10 plantations Clive’s father didn’t move you know was still living close to a plantation part owned by travellin basically it’s not stretched to say that Clive’s ancestors could have been owned by m right and can we just briefly before we

Get into the specifics of the podcast talk about the slavery bailout and the compensation package because I do think it’s one of the most extraordinary and I believe lesser known yeah lesser known and underd discussed elements of British history so just just just for the listeners that don’t are not aware of

This please just run them down what what you’re talking about yeah were 20 million in 1834 is paid to 46 6,000 claims are made for the loss of what’s termed property that property is enslaved Africans by all the little old ladies in Britain and the big plantation owners and anyone who’s linked to

Slavery because when slavery is abolished they can no longer have slaves so therefore they have to be compensated and the backdrop to it is Clive’s a parliamentarian then as now in order for there to be parliamentary support there needed to be this compensation package trailed because the

West India interest as it was known meaning the Planters meaning the slavers basically you know they were very they were a powerful Lobby I think it’s important to get as size the scale 20 million doesn’t sound like much but 20 million back in 1834 was half half of

Government spending um so that would be 40% I think 40% it would be it would be hundreds of billions of pounds they take out a massive loan that was only paid off in 2015 and it was only a tweet from the treasury which alerted which was Britain to this fact some deleted this

May not be a good idea we’ve paid off that loan many of the victims of the wind Rush Scandal have been paying back their own been paying off the debt that was British taxpayers paid off this loan that was taken out to benefit those like my ancestors

Who had lost their property I.E lost the right to enslave people when slavery was abolished paid for that right you mentioned the U treasury’s tweet and it reads here’s today’s surprising Friday fact like it’s so like it’s like a Friday fact is something like oh did you know

Salamanders can grow back a taale you know what I mean like that’s my Friday fact not this like National stain or national shame and it just ad here today surprising Friday fact millions of you helped end the slave trade through your taxes and of course a lot of people were

Like I’m sorry what what what are you talking about for a lot of people that was the first time they realized that that had happened so part of the part of the really interesting thing about both slavery and Empire is the deliberate forgetting that’s taken place and it’s a

Deliberate thing because the reality is if you deal with the issues of Empire you have to talk about slavery you have to talk about why there is wealth inequality in this country why there are people with great wealth vast wealth institutions individuals uh and why we have the kind of almost feudal um

Constitution that we have and Empire opens all of that up so they want to put it back they want to say simply oh you’re only interest in digging up the negative past you don’t want actually it helps you it actually helps you come to terms with why we are the country we are

Today and how we can improve ourselves how we can take ourselves forward right we’re trying to look at the current day legacies of slavery which is why we went to Grenada and to Barbados and when you go to Grenada so there’s an epidemic of obesity and hypertension and that is related to the

Poor diet that came from slavery and the amount of sugar consumption and grenade is national dish is called oil down and it’s it’s pigs feet and coconut milk and other things which are incredibly unhealthy because this was pudding right exactly Laura’s like actually I did really like all down but this was I

Don’t like it so I’m being consistent any but it’s the one pot dish that the enslaved made and so there are the health consequences today in Grenada from that the fact that poverty and illiteracy were legacies of slavery there are still pockets in rural Grenada where people can’t read yeah

Today which is why you know the Caribbean has a 10-point reparations plan which Clive and I have been talking about and trying to advocate for and it begins with a complete apology for slavery from the former Colonial powers and then there’s a call for investment in health and

Education and then on top of that you now have climate change which Clive having just been in the Antarctic can bring us all up to datton but if you think about it nobody asked to be in the Caribbean their ancestors were dragged there against their will and now these

Islands are at risk from climate change with more severe storms hurricanes I mean we drove down the Coast Road which is flooded every time there’s even just a super high tide so there’s now climate resiliency funding which I think you can argue the former Colonial Powers

You know Britain has a a debt to these Caribbean Island that’s what I always thought as well you know because just using cotton as an example you know cotton slave produced cotton helped create Manchester’s Industrial Revolution that was the beginning of the you know the cities of Britain becoming

The big smokes just pumping [ __ ] into the air you couldn’t make it up could you that that the carbon pumped out that was kind of funded and powered by the slave trade cotton sugar um is now creating you know hurricans once every few no category five hurricans once

Every few years as opposed to once every half a century um you couldn’t make it up that the poorest most vulnerable islands that are there because of slavery the populations are there because of slavery chattle slavery and now at the Forefront of um the climate crisis there’s an idea on the podcast

That you know climate funds are a way of getting reparations packages into these countries in 2004 Hurricane Ivan killed 34 people in Grenada and caused $900 Million worth of damage there’s also an idea that debt relief could be a way of getting reparations to these countries

Um and a way of dealing with Legacy for the Savory but there are points where both of you seem unsure about that and I think there’s a really interesting thing that Clive you say about the significance of reparations not being essentially laundered into these countries under the guise of climate

Compensation and as a way of making it more politically expedient within Britain yeah and I think that’s it’s really key that the the conversation around reparatory Justice is critical and if you kind of cover that over yeah through through the conversation on climate it begins to get muddied and

Covered up and what this is about is I think dickon Mitchell the prime minister of Grenada who we did interview in the podcast one of the things reasons he gave for apparat justice being so critical is that we cannot rule out that these kind of activities will happen

Again in the 21st century and actually dealing with it now is about saying never again we won’t allow it to happen and look at the world look at the world around us so I think it’s really important that we have the conversation about about why reparatory Justice why

It’s right to support these countries given what happened in the past and our part in that and what we’ve extracted from them and unless you have that conversation and I think the fear is you give them a hand you give them a handout and because of the global economic

System and the way it’s structured they’ll be back um to square one after four or five hurricans and the debt and no continuous debt repayments they’ll be back to square one in a decade or so and they don’t want that I mean the example I would use is

Germany and Israel after the second world war Germany paid Israel billions of pounds in reparations it was established that that’s what you could and should do and Israel invested that in energy shipping infrastructure and Israel now is one of the most powerful economies in the Middle East in part

Because of those of that reparatory Justice that Germany paid to it so there’s a model already out there and I think it’s one that we should be looking at as well but isn’t the reason there’s a resistance to it and do correct me if I’m wrong it’s just because the bill

Would just be simply too big right and for people in Britain I mean Clive talked about this a lot during the podcast you know your constituents are facing High inflation they don’t feel rich they don’t feel that they should be giving money to the Caribbean because of something that happened hundreds of

Years ago and so the the difficulty is trying to explain how the past informs the present and it definitely does yeah it’s obvious and there are also just all of the social and psychological costs of slavery in Grenada and and the tragedy of the Windrush generation and how

People were persecuted I mean one of the most interesting things about the podcast to me was Clive’s father cuz he was born in Grenada comes to Britain at the end of the Windrush generation because there AR no opportunities in Grenada makes it here encounters discrimination in Britain but

Battles on through becomes an incredibly successful trade unionist now has retired to Grenada where he’s organizing the fisherman of course he’s TR he’s a trade unionist but his story and Clive’s story and mine I mean it’s the story of of modern Britain and for Tony the double diasporization of him and you

Said it was so interesting you said my dad’s sounding so African now he’s back in guav yeah they do like he’s closer to his ancestors there’s just something about it which is really mindblowing and and the the fact that you know the West Indies were regarded as the slums of

Empire that’s what David Lloyd George referred to them as and people had to come here because there was no opportunity all of that is really under appreciated in Britain and the harm and the hurt and I I you I think so I think I can’t speak for every you know

Descendant of of enslavement but um I think the the conversation the understanding like what the journey that Laura’s been on if people if more people in this country could go through that journey I think that would do more for race relations for issues of immigration

For our our place in the world where we are in this kind of POS Imperial kind of Hiatus that we exist in at the moment I think it would help this country and I think for a lot of black people both in the Caribbean and here that’s worth a

Lot and so it doesn’t it I mean it could be billions and billions but I think that understanding that kind of coming to terms with that and that healing process is so important because it will cutor relations it will cutor economic relationships it will cutor racism the

Immigration debate but if we are talking about money Arley Gil the the chair of the Grenadian um um CARICOM reparations kind of committee he I asked him the question well my constituents you know many of them are going to be able to pay their energy bills how are they going to

Pay and he said I agree they shouldn’t be paying it per se he said but the people who extracted and exploited us are the people who are extracting and exploiting them now the corporations the banks the wealthy the financial institutions and he said it’s about making sure that they pay their fair

Share and he said the people that you need to be kind of getting a better deal on when it comes to wealth distribution are the same people that we’re looking for when you follow that line I mean I only learned recently from a burner Boy song um that Unilever had links to

Slavery um and was part of you know colonial projects that were in West Africa and the Caribbean unil lever so the companies we would know them their household name a Eva it might David the historian Davida he basically in a program explains that one of the families that

Got received the biggest payouts the son went on to set up an insurance company that insurance company then merged with another insurance company Imperial Insurance something like that and the two merged together at the start of the 20th century as Norwich Union yeah which is my constituency H which then became a

Viva and that was in part funded originally funded by the compensation that the slave owners were paid so it’s it’s everywhere you look at um I didn’t know about unila I didn’t know about AA I’m sure there are many many others and they and I think now Laura’s aware as

Well that there are many now corporations Banks Lloyds others who are beginning to look into this um and beginning to kind of unpick Ro of England L of London The Guardian newspaper has been doing a big investigation into own Finance yeah we were talking in last week’s episode

About why is that after all of the reportage around the post office Scandal it was an ITV drama that has really fast-tracked the process of accountability in that issue how important is it that you stress the personal element of this for you too I think you were talking about the power

Of Storytelling on on the podcast last week with Rel in relation to the post office drama and I think that Clive and I we’re a microcosm of modern Britain he a descendant of the enslaved in Grenada me a descendant of those that enslaved his ancestors and the pain of that but

Also the promise in acknowledging it it it is about storytelling and hopefully it’s something that everyone can understand yeah it was interesting to see an interview with you yourselves I can’t remember what it was but the interviewer kept wanting to pin did you get on did you argue about it I think

That’s the anxiety of British differences but we become we are friends is much more leing than me and he doesn’t like English breakfast I don’t like English breakfast but I’ve learned a lot from you know Laura my my faor Centrist mom you know it’s it’s but American

So but we but this is the this is this is the complexity of the story you know this doesn’t have to be about finger jabbing shame it me and Laura have become friends through this and despite the despite the history of what’s happened and this isn’t about finger

Jabbing it’s a story of a relationship but we are the complexity of modern Britain uh and we’re proud of that it’s it’s our story but let’s have the story we’re out and proud yeah we’re out and proud but we’re not let’s have that story out there and it’s not about

Making people feel guilty the conversation around reparations for slavery has been growing louder so let’s hear a quick clip on that topic from the podcast so this is Sir Hillary beckles who’s the chair of the Caribbean Community also known as caricom’s reparations commission I have said over and over again and many

Economists have said this that Britain has had 200 years of Free Labor unpaid labor from 20 million people 20 million people unpaid for 200 years is a phenomenal extraction of wealth and just to put back a portion of that to facilitate infrastructure schools Bridges Education Health is not

Only legally necessary and correct but it’s also morally and ethically sound almost a year ago our family went to Grenada and S Hillary Beckle who you just played a clip of him in the podcast we worked with him and he said look you know you descendants of enslavers you’ve

Been we haven’t been able to see you for dust but come to the Caribbean apologize you’ll set an example and see what follows from that and he was so powerful that he convinced us so we went to Grenada um donated money to educational causes there now we’ve set up a family

Charity and Clive was following all this and stood up in Parliament and said very simply if a family can AP izee for slavery and pay reparations why can’t Britain’s government and for me that was like a light bulb going off so and that’s start joury to answer your first

Question that was the start of our journey to answer your half an hour later to answer your first question sorry about that that’s how we connected and then we talked on a dodgy WhatsApp line that weekend and then and Clive you know has taught me so much about I mean

He said the think the most interesting thing and maybe this will resonate for everybody as I sit here with Children of Empire he he said um shout out the parents of Empire right exactly he said the thing is Laura that you know you’ve opened up a space for me to jump in but

It’s partly systemic racism that has enabled that because you have the voice you know privilege it’s that that LS back yeah like the world’s most ghastly phrase but yes if anybody has it it’s definitely me and Clive just helped me to understand so much really

I mean I use the term White Privilege I mean it’s that that’s obviously that’s obviously a big kind of flashing CLA over there but actually it’s really interesting there have been lots of black people talking about this for decades and they haven’t listened until Laura and her family came along and it’s

Kind of been given a fresh and new lease of life and that’s kind of almost inevitable when you think about how structural racism Works who’s listened to who has a hearing and who doesn’t and it was always probably going to be the fact that Laura or a family like that

Were going to come forward and do something this but I’m just I was just when I watched Laura and her family John Da stand up and make that statement I I was blown away by it I I wasn’t I wasn’t going yeah damn about that time I was

Just absolutely amazed that people would do this and and take you know put themselves forward to do that it’s not been easy it’s not been an easy Journey but that’s the stor power of Storytelling isn’t it you know 30 years at the BBC if you can’t hold you can’t hold other people

If you can’t tell the truth about yourself you can’t tell the truth about other people so coming from that tradition when Hillary Beckle said if you set an example it’ll be meaningful I felt immediately that he was right and that we should do it and who the heck

Knew what would follow from it but my my final question is when you guys go out for drinks Laura do you get the rounds in she does no we get the rounds in each you know we split everything 5050 I’m a huge fan of making rich white people buy me

Drinks and every time they they’re reluctant I go partition that was pretty bad that was pretty bad guys I think you have to set a time limit on it 2024 is the year that everyone pays for the own we all pay for our own drinks I just got

A push notification about a very important vote coming up I think you need to go that’s that’s my wh calling the phone is going and the bat phone’s going next to me get yourself back in here we bu that CL go to attend to the business of government um but in terms

Of the process of Storytelling I I would really urge people to check out the podcast it’s called Airs of enslavement and I hope it’s the starting point for a more enlightened conversation on this subject and Laura and Clive thank you so much for joining us today thank you than very much Great it’s time to name our hero and villain of the week and every so often we like to switch it up so put angry Nish away and get nice cuddly nich out of his box who have you got for hero well as much as it pains me to say this

As a Manchester United fan um I have picked the fans of Liverpool Football Club this is a real this is a real wrench for me but it is an amazing story last week the former England manager Sven Goran Erikson revealed he believes he has at most a year to live after

Being diagnosed with terminal pancreatic cancer and in an interview with Skye looking back at his life he also revealed an unfulfilled wish my father is still alive and he’s still a Liverpool supporter and um I’m a Liverpool supporter as well I always been so I always wished to be the Manager of

Liverpool and that will not happen for sure but I’m still a Liverpool fan so after revealing his love for the football club club and his dream of managing them Liverpool fans have started a campaign on social media to get the club to make him manager of the Liverpool Legends team for their charity

Match against the Ajax Legends at anfield on the 23rd of March the Liverpool echo’s already got behind the campaign and Liverpool Legend Robbie Fowler has indicated that a call had already gone into the organizers about it so it’s over to you Liverpool FC uh watch this space it’s a genuinely nice

Story much as it pains me to say this the Liverpool fans are doing something genuinely nice and I would say even if it doesn’t happen which it seems absurd it feels like that should happen but even if it doesn’t happen it’s nice that Sven as a Liverpool fan got to feel the

Love from his fellow Liverpool fans um Coco get your angry face on who’s our villain of the week well you know how I feel about the trains Nish yeah I uh have a a a separate well of Rage about the trains in this country and so this week I’m going to point the

Finger at aanti West Coast so it’s been reported that aan managers joked at a company meeting joked about receiving free money from the government and about performance related payments being too good to be true one slide at an internal presentation was titled roll up roll up get your free money here and described

How the treasury Department for transport supported the firm with taxpayers money provided third- party suppliers and inspections and then paid a vti fees on top the rmt union has called the presentation first revealed by Navara media as a disc race fair play all this from a firm I should point out

That has a unbelievably poor record of cancelled and late running trains it’s slash timetables in December and has seen punctuality Decline and cancellations worsen in recent months of course they don’t care because they’re going to get paid anyway and if they do happen to meet their performance targets

Well then it’s just more money for them Avan has confirmed the contents of the presentation and called it regrettable doesn’t quite feel strong enough regrettable um before we go we just got time to fit in some correspondents from our listeners here’s a voice note that’s coming from one of our American

Listeners hi n Coco my name is Ellie I am calling from Oakland California uh in addition to being an avid pod saave the UK listener I am also an avid reality TV Watcher um and is for this reason that I’m calling to ask about John burko um

Who appeared on my screen this week in the US version of the reality show the Traders um I’m calling not only as an uninformed American wondering who this man is uh but also to ask if you have any thoughts about him uh either in general or in particular about his

Choice to appear on an American reality show uh I love your show thanks so much so here’s a clip of John burko on the show being interrogated about his breathing there was extreme intensity in the room and I was pleased it was at an end I’ve never breathed particularly

Well okay I was asmatic in my youth I don’t regard myself as asmatic today but when you took the mask off you said I have asthma you just said I was asmatic as a child that’s absolutely true I was asmatic is that what you told her you told me you had

Asthma look is asthma a lifelong condition I don’t regulate that’s not the question I’m asking you if you ask me do I use an inhaler I’m asking you did you say that to her I’ll be absolutely honest that would be good I don’t remember the exact words I

Used in response but what I do recall you’re answering this just like a politician well I mean that forgive me but that’s just a but you’re not answering the question wow so we’re back on the traitors we started on the traitors and We’ve Ended on the traitors

Yes John bural is in the American version of the traitors I should say for British people he hasn’t just wafted over to America and gone into the normal traitors in in America the traitors is a celebrity show in Britain it’s ordinary people like essentially playing a game of werewolf or

Mafia what however you play that game or whatever you call it by but yeah so for context John burkow was a a British politician he was also uh not just an MP but he he was actually Speaker of the House of Commons from 2009 to

2019 and he he did become something of a kind of celebrity here because of the amount of coverage of parliament because he was the Speaker of the House through all of the debates around brexit and because he had quite a distinctive way of calling the house to order where he’d go

OD it he he he sort of became a kind of minor celebrity right in answer to your question we think this is really weird and it’s basically like Nancy Pelosi turning up on Celebrity love Island yeah no that is it is very strange I would just say that generally what I’ve

Learned from most American films and TVs is that if they are a British person they are the villain that is generally he’s the traitor is what I’m saying I don’t know I I have no idea I’ve never seen this show but I think he is the

Traitor uh it does look like he was panicking Under Pressure I mean my favorite bit is when he said um she’s like oh you’re you’re answering like a politician I mean he is a politician that’s fine it’s like if someone said okay you’re being a journalist or you’re

Being a lawyer you know which has happened to me loads of times if I’m at a dinner party and I ask too many questions people are like okay all right you don’t need to be a journalist I don’t think it’s like wrong and I just loved how he said that is you’re being

Abusive now this is a term of abuse I didn’t know politician was term of abuse the only thing worse than somebody saying you really behaving like your profession is when someone goes sorry you’re a comedian um let’s just dip into the mail back look let’s not be around the bush

Here Coco yeah against all reason and logic we have had our first applications to join the Pod shag the UK dating club for anyone uh who doesn’t know what we’re talking about coko suggested uh last week because dating apps are so awful we start a kind of dating out for people to meet

Like-minded people how better to do that than to bond over their shared love of this podcast and I as a joke called it pod shag the UK but now people have genuin submitted profiles I mean if it was real just just it’s not real for clarity you know this is definitely not

A real thing but if it was there’s no way you could call it podack the UK how you meant to tell your mom that where did you meet outrageous well look here’s the thing we I am going to read uh read this letter out yes I I don’t know how with

All the kind of data protection we would possibly go about setting two people up but I am going to read out the email John has emailed and uh has said this I humbly submit my pod shag the UK dating profile I’m a home owning Millennial who isn’t a Tor

Which Coco’s interest is peed up oh I see married home owning Millennial Coco C’s interest is inexplicably pimp pee I’ve Got Friends uh I’m a home owning Millennial who is a notor which statistically makes me about as rare as a unicorn and I can send [ __ ] spaniel pics on request I don’t think

That’s euphemism I think e dog what more could a woman Poss possibly won and then in Brackets this isn’t a joke please set me up dating gaps and Tory Britain have been horrendous for everyone’s mental health looking forward to the tsunami of matches and that’s from John and his

Spaniel Meer from South Wales so I guess if you live in the South Wales region email in no no don’t email in this is not an area we can go into but John wrote quite a funny dating profile I feel so conflicted right now have you

Ever set anyone up in real life you never done it of course I’ve never set anyone up in real life it’s a weird as I’ve only done it once or twice and you you feel genuinely personally resp exactly why I’ve never done it this this would be a nightmare for us to get

Involved in people ask me if I have single friends I’m like no I do even if you do I do I’ve got Lo of rud well I I just I don’t want the the Str we want to hoard the love because the Happ I just don’t want to be

Put under the pressure of having set two people up I genuinely don’t know how South Asian aunts manage it they’re constantly trying to get people married I don’t know how you can live with the stress of that well the main thing is to tell people to lower their standards

That seems to that’s the main way you do it but I guess the thing that it I mean this is just a digression now but like you know I’ve got loads of mates who are lovely yeah but in relationships are different people so I couldn’t be 100%

Sure that who I put forward was anyway whatever I digress um so I’ve got one too though sadly it’s not a match for John sorry John this is from Jay in Yorkshire and the profile reads hopeless romantic lesbian 24 terrible Barista giant fantasy novels nerd looking for

Someone to go on Cafe and Bookshop dates and watch nishes standup specials with a oh that’s genuinely nice these are funny and Charming people how can these people not be finding love also thanks for getting a plugin for my standup special J thank you so much available now at nkar.com

What you’ve heard or a question about British politics or maybe you’d like to make use of our pod sh Shack the UK service we can’t have this is in the script we can’t have this you can get in touch with us by emailing psuk Ruel listing. co.uk this

Is bad now it’s always nice to hear your voices so do send us a voice note on WhatsApp our number is 07514 6445 72 internationally that’s plus44 75146 44572 please don’t send us your dating profiles please but maybe do don’t forget to follow pod save theuk

On Instagram and Twitter where we are at pods theuk you can also find us on YouTube for access to full episodes and other exclusive content and if you’re as opinionated as we are consider dropping us a review and if you’re interested in John OJ uh email the email addresses okay

Just for clarity you individually are responsible for this I can’t believe I’ve said I don’t like setting people now I’m trying to use my own podcast as a matchmaking service legally I am not responsible just want to just say that out loud I told you I’m middle-age and I

Have genetically Indian it’s just even though my rational brain is fighting it my urge is to marry people it’s going to be so good it’s going to be so good uh pods the UK is a reduced lisening production for crooked media thanks to CD producer musty aiz and digital

Producer Alex Bishop video editing was by David capit and the music is by facilis phot topis thanks to our engineer David darari the executive producers are Anish K shamra Dan Jackson and meline herringer with additional support from Harry Schwarz remember to hit subscribe for new shows on Thursdays

On Amazon Spotify or apple or wherever you get your podcasts why are you looking at me with the look of I hope you’re happy with what you’ve done I’m just I’m just going to sit back and watch this car crash just going to sit back and let you do It