My Life in Seven Charms with Emma Guns

Welcome to Series 4 of the My Life in Seven Charms Podcast! This is our first time filming the episodes so we are thrilled to be releasing this season on Youtube.

A little bit about the podcast, Annoushka Ducas MBE has been collecting charms for as long as she can remember, in her podcast she explores their unique ability to evoke memory and meaning with inspiring women, as they reveal their Life in Seven Charms.

Kicking off with leading podcaster, beauty journalist and presenter, Emma Gunavardhana is better known as Emma Guns. Emma spent ten years as the Beauty Editor of OK! Magazine and her extensive career includes writing for The Telegraph and Sunday Times Style, Red and Get the Gloss amongst many others. Emma launched her renowned podcast, The Emma Guns Show, in 2016 and with over 15 million downloads, she now has intimate conversations with her guests about the risks they’ve taken, struggles they’ve had to overcome, successes they’re proud of… and what they’ve learned along the way.

And my first question is, with 15  million downloads, how many got the   podcasts have you done as a guest? How many podcasts have I done as   a guest? Probably about, maybe you’re  number 12. I’d say it’s around a dozen. 

Okay. So how many podcasts have you  recorded? Should I know the answer to that?  Just, I think we’re at the brink of 800. The  podcast is actually seven years old this week.  Congratulations. Thank you, cheers.  So let’s start with your first charm.  And these are all in no particular order,  

But when I asked you what charms, you said, “I  want something that’s to do with weather symbols.”  Yes. And then I kind   of read some of the reasons why. So you’ll tell  us why, but I’ve designed this charm as a little  

Cassette, one of those little used to go in a  dictaphone when I was young anyway. And this is   a three-dimensional yellow gold, perfectly  replicated cassette tape that went into a   dictaphone. It’s got holes where the cogs go round  and the little wheels actually move and they turn.  

And then it’s engraved with lots of little emojis,  sun, cloud, rainbows. And on the back of it,   it’s written “John Hill.” Now, perhaps you could  tell us what, you probably didn’t visualise   it as a cassette, but I’m kinda fascinated.  What was all this about the weather symbol? 

Well, it’s something that I learned about because  genuinely, I don’t remember doing this. So this is   something that my brother and my dad in particular  laughed about and then told me about. And every   time we have this discussion, I really want to be  able to access the memory, but I simply cannot,  

I don’t remember. But when I was little, I would  take myself off into the bedroom with the ghetto   blaster. With the stereo. Yeah.  And there would be blank tapes because used to  tape things off the radio, back in the day. And I  

Would wait until I thought no one was listening  or looking, and I would put the tape in and I   would hit record and I would do a full weather  report as John Hills, who apparently at the time,  

Was a local weatherman. And I say, “And this is  John Hills with the weather.” And even now, if you   mention it to my family, they crease up laughing.  And for me, the reason why I thought about it is  

Because it’s this weird thing. I don’t remember  it, but it was sort of weirdly foreshadowing   of my future, of being a broadcaster. But it is weird. But I mean, was there   something about the weather? Does the weather, you  know, was there something initially, the weather  

Makes you change your mood or was it about that? I don’t think it was about that, although the   weather does definitely change my mood 100%. But  I think it was about maybe, and I’m really pulling   at some psychological stuff. But maybe it was  because as soon as the weather report comes on,  

Everyone does listen. Yeah, you’re right.   They do. Absolutely fascinated. So maybe it was an early desire   of wanting to be heard and listen to. And I  thought, “Well, if the subject that I pick is   one that is relevant to everybody, then  people will stop and give me attention. 

Can you just tell us a little bit about your  childhood? Did you have siblings? Tell us a   bit about where you were brought up and  kind of what life was like as a child. 

Yeah, so I was brought up in a tiny village in  Kent. It was a really small village, kind of in   the middle of nowhere, quite disconnected. And  I have an older brother called Gavin, and he’s   five years older than me. But he likes to point  out that everyone thinks I’m his older sister. 

Oh, I bet he loves that. Absolutely loves it. And   middle of the countryside. So early memories  are very much of spending a lot of time in the   garden and particularly in the warmer months.  And for me, it sounds such a daft thing,  

But the smell of cut grass is something that  feels incredibly grounding and safe. So yeah,   it was really rural. We go for long walks in the  countryside of farm lanes, all that kind of stuff.  Yeah, were you happy? Was it happy childhood? I think so. Although someone asked me this the  

Other day and I think you don’t know until- You know if it was miserable though.  And I suppose especially with the kind  of conversations I have on the podcast,   it becomes sort of unavoidable truth that a  lot of the things that you have to work on  

As an adult are sometimes the things that maybe  you struggled with in your childhood. And that’s   not necessarily for any fault of the people who  raised you. Like my parents are wonderful people,   but there are definitely things that I realised  got embedded early that I’ve had to untangle. And  

I guess seeing it through that perspective, you  look back and perhaps it changes the colour or   the shape of your past memories a little  bit. But yes, it was a happy childhood.  Isn’t it? And did your parents  work? Were they around a lot or? 

Yeah, so my dad worked and my mom was stay at  home/part-time early on. Their funny story with   them is that they met at Penguin. Penguin Books?  Penguin Books. And my dad was in the accounting  department and my mom was an editor. But yeah,  

They met at Penguin. So she’s a brilliant  editor. One of the books that she worked   on initially, I think her first book was  something like “Lady Chatterley’s Lover.”  We’re gonna talk more about how you  got into being a beauty journalist  

But do you think she was influential in that? I think so because my dad worked. And ’cause my   mom was around a lot more, she was definitely the  primary influence. And I remember being on Easter  

Holiday or a half term or something, and being  bored out of my mind as children tend to be. And   they have no problem expressing how bored they  are. And my mother sat me in the bedroom with  

A typewriter with one of those books that you  could flip over with like the quick fox jumps   over the lazy brown dog with all of, and so I just  learned, sat there and just did ASDF, semicolon.  Touch type. I learned to touch type. 

God, what an amazing thing to teach you so young. Oh, I mean, she might have been in another room   while I was clacking away, but I was absolutely  obsessed. And then when I went and did my  

Post-grad in journalism, my mother didn’t really  say a huge amount to me beforehand. I knew I was   doing law, I knew I was doing various aspects  of media, journalism, magazine journalism,   and there was also a shorthand component.  And this was in 2002. I mean, dictaphones  

Have been around plenty, but it was very much  a thing. And I remember coming back after the   first six weeks and saying, “I’m really good at  shorthand.” And my mom just going, “Yeah, your   grandmother and I were both top of our class too.” That’s so fun ’cause I remember doing shorthand.  

I still remember therefore. It goes like that. I’m so out of practise now. It makes me wanna   go home and just like practise a little bit. Anyways, I’m fascinated to know, we’re gonna   talk about in a minute how you went from that  to doing what you’re doing now. But one of your  

Charms is you described, you said you wanted it  to be a cinema ticket. So I’ve kind of conjured   up this kind of rather old fashioned, I don’t know  why it has to be old fashioned, but we don’t even  

Get ticket anymore, so it had to be old fashioned. I love that it’s old fashioned.  So I see this as, I’ve done it in rose  gold, rose gold with perforated edges,   just like used to rip them off. I’ve engraved  it with Hollywood movies. And then with the  

Stars above and below the Hollywood movies,  those are all set with little diamonds. And   you’ll see on the end, that’s your birthday. But  tell me about this ticket, this cinema ticket.  So I mentioned that I grew up in the countryside,  a very small village in rural Kent. And  

It’s a beautiful part of the world. Where is it? I used to live in Kent.  It’s between Maidstone and Ashford. Okay.  Where were you? I was Thomas Wells and kind of that way.  Yes, little bit further south. And essentially,  it was… My brother and I sort of refer to it as  

Dingleberry. It was like nothing ever happened. Right.  I mean, it was a very dull small village.  And I think I was always quite worried   about nothing ever happening. It was like,  nothing exciting happened there. And then I’d   turn on the television or I’d watch films and  everything exciting happened there. And so I  

Developed probably a very unhealthy and unnatural  attachment to what was possible in the world via   what I saw on screen. And weirdly, I actually  think that has been really helpful in my life.   Because if you look at Hollywood films, we talk  about Hollywood endings, anything is possible. 

Yeah. And so somewhere in my sort of makeup,   I just believed anything was possible. That’s absolutely extraordinary. So first   of all, did you watch his films in the  cinema? Was it a big outing to go and,  

You know, so was it kind of quite an event? It was never a big outing to go necessarily.   I remember going to see “Goonies” on Friday  afternoon, “The Goonies” on a Friday afternoon,   I think on half term. And it was a big trip where  my brother’s class or my brother’s friends from  

His year and my friends, we all went with each  other’s parents. And that was very exciting and   to see things like “Three Men and a Baby.” But  then it was really like, you could buy these on  

Tape and keep them? And I remember the one that  I watched over and over and over again, I haven’t   watched for many, many years now, but it was “The  Princess Bride.” The idea that you could just be  

In your home bored and then you could put that  in and you could go on this adventure was just   utterly, I just absolutely adored it. I loved it.  I would get, you know when people are transfixed?  Yeah. And it’s not just mesmerised. It was,  

I was absolutely just in it. So it’s a complete escapism.  Complete escapism. And even now, not so much since  COVID but before COVID when I was free freelance,   which I’ve been since 2012, if ever I’d get  to the middle of the afternoon, I think, “Oh,  

I’m just not feeling it,” or, “I’m feeling  a bit stuck.” My go-to is go to the cinema,   enjoy the free in freelance, go to the cinema,  which is basically going to be empty. And it   allows you to just sort of pause your life  and get lost in an adventure, whether it’s  

With superheroes or dinosaurs or secret agents.  And then honestly, and I’m not just saying this,   I come out a completely different person. I love the idea of that. I also really   like the idea of the free in freelance. I don’t  know, I’ve never heard that before. I love that. 

I remember someone saying to me when I was leaving  the magazine, “Just do me a favour, enjoy the free   in freelance.” And I was like, “What does that  mean?” And she was like, “Well, fundamentally,   just go to the cinema when it’s empty.” That’s a brilliant, brilliant advice.  

So at that point, anything was possible.  But did you know what you wanted to do?  Yes, it’s this weird thing if anything  is possible. But there weren’t that many   possibilities open to me. And what  I mean by that is because of films,  

I wanted to be a journalist. Because  if you think about many of the films   in the ’80s and ’90s particularly, the female  protagonists were journalists or an advertising.  Well, who were they? what films were this? I  can only think “Devil Wears Prada.” What is it?  Well, Lois Lane. Yeah. 

So prominent female position. I always think about  things like, I mean, this is slightly later on,   but Kate Hudson in “How to Lose a Guy in 10 days,”  Jennifer Garner in “13 going on 30.” But that was  

Very much when it kind of hit its peak. But if you  looked at a lot of female characters before then,   the sort of, the one that was really interesting,  or the one that was really going places was   somehow connected to the media. That’s so interesting. 

Yeah, and so, but at school, I was not engaged at  all. I actually found it really difficult school.  School. And struggled. Yeah,   really struggled. I’m a visual learner. If you  sit me down with a recipe or a guy a step-by-step  

Written down on how to do a full Christmas lunch,  my eyes will blur and game over. But if you show   me, I will go away and replicate the entire thing  and there’s absolutely no problem. But obviously,   that’s not how the education system was set up. Well, there are two really interesting things  

About that. But first of all, that you didn’t  enjoy school in that respect. But also that   you say you’re a visual person. I get that 100%,  ’cause if you showed me a spreadsheet, I’m like,   “Oh, just can’t.” Or anything like that. But  hang on, but you went to be a journalist,  

Which is about the written word at that  point. It’s not now, but it was at that   point. So that’s kind of really interesting. It was, but it was sort of, it was a written   documentation of a visual media because  it was very much beauty and celebrity. 

Yeah. So it wasn’t the primary Element of the story.  Okay, so the pull to journalism was the  beauty and the celebrity and the glamour   that you’d seen in the movies. The pull yeah, was to be close   to famous people and to- It was to be close to  

Famous people, that’s what it was. To be close to famous people in the   sense of, I felt very disenfranchised at  school. And I had very awkward teen years.  And why was that? I had something called polycystic ovarian  

Syndrome. And so at the point of puberty when a  lot of people shoot up and blossom, I just spread,   got facial hair, lost my hair, and got really bad  acne. So the years when you want to be blossoming  

Or when everyone else around you is blossoming,  I was definitely… I was complaining about the   things that, like my mom and her friends were  complaining about, like stretch marks and heavy   boobs and- Yeah. 

That sort of stuff. I had middle aged concerns as  a teenager. And so, there was a part of me that   thought, “Well, if I get close to glamorous stuff,  not just people, but beauty products or then maybe  

By osmosis, I’ll have a glow up.” Although  we didn’t have the word glow up at the time.  I think it’s so interesting that that was your  approach because I didn’t suffer from that, but   I suffered from being fat and eating too much and  all sorts of things. But my attitude to that would  

Be the absolute reverse is not to put myself in an  environment with all these glamorous people, etc.   ’cause it would make me feel fatter and uglier. Yeah, yeah. And that is really, I mean,   that makes more sense than where I was going. Yeah, it’s like, that’s so interesting. 

My approach is a bit more Emperor’s New Clothes.  If I just stand here, people will see what I   want them to see, which isn’t what happens. So actually, your next two charms are really   interlinked, the knife and fork. I love the  idea of making a knife and fork because I see  

That they’ll be three-dimensional, they’ll hang  off one bale. So that means that they’ll hang   and they’ll move. So I’ve seen them in 18-karat  yellow gold, perfectly formed miniature fork and   miniature knife with little serrated edges on the  knife and diamond handles. And the other charm,  

Which is a little bra. And I’ve designed  this bra. I think it’d be super feminine,   pretty bra because of all the reasons that you’ve  described. So I see it as, as three dimensional,   quite big cups, rose gold, set with Parve  pink sapphires all the way in the cups.  

And the straps at the front are just simply rose  gold, but at the back, so it’s adjustable, it’s a   little chain and it’s completely adjustable.  And it will hang from its little bale. But   those two charms I see as being really, really  interlinked together. Because your story about  

Having a breast reduction obviously goes very,  very much hand in hand with the knife and fork.  Absolutely. Do you mind telling me a little   bit about whichever way round you want to do it? Of course. So I have been overweight since I was  

Quite a young kid, since about the age of 11. And  so at the age of 41, I had a breast reduction. So   we’re talking… 41.  30 years of feeling my body needed to change. Right.  And get smaller. And I ended up having the surgery  to have a breast reduction because I thought that  

If they were smaller, then the rest of me would  look smaller. And what I learned when I looked   in the mirror was that I now had these great new  surgically perfected boobs, but the rest of me was  

Now what I had my focus on. And the reason why the  breast reduction was such a key moment in my life,   well, there were many reasons, but the one that’s  specific to the food is that there had been,   I would say, denial for a really long time. Denial about the food? 

Denial about my relationship with food.  Because I would diet really well and I’d   exercised really, really hard. And I  could keep that going for 18 months.  Could you? I’d keep it to about five days. Honestly, I would be so dedicated and it  

Would rule my life. So I wouldn’t go out in  the evening because God forbid, food would   put in front of me that I hadn’t been able to put  together myself. So it was quite life limiting,  

But I would think, well this feels better so I  must give it my full attention. But what happened   was is over those 30 years, particularly in my  20s and 30s, I just did the same dance with the  

Same 40 to 50 pounds. They’d go up, they’d go  down, they’d go up, they’d go down. And when I   had my breast reduction, I was heavier again.  And I remember my surgeon saying to me, “Well,  

We need to have a discussion. Do you want to drop  weight before you have the surgery? Or what are we   doing?” And I had almost, I know this is gonna  sound really bad, I’d almost kind of given up  

On the idea that I could lose weight because  I had just experienced so much failure in that   arena. All I knew was that dieting and exercise  would get me there, but I couldn’t stay there.  But dieting, exercise could get you there, but  forfeiting so much other parts of your life?  

‘Cause you said, you know, you’d have to arrange,  think about where you were going for dinner.  Yeah, I mean, obviously there’s balance in and  amongst that but yes, it was the fact that I   couldn’t maintain it. That was the thing. And so  I’d already been bold enough to go and have this  

Consultation with the surgeon. The position I  had got to in my head was, “Maybe this is it.   Maybe I am just a bigger person. And if that’s  the case, why lose weight to have the surgery   when we know what’s coming next?” Which will  be weight gain. So I said, “Let’s go ahead.”  

But it was really important and maybe that it  happened that way because in spending my savings,   in going through an operation, it was no joke at  all. No surgery is taken lightly. And it was the   first time I’d done anything like that. It made me  think, “Hang on a minute, there’s something else  

Going on here. It’s not about, I can’t surgically  reduce my body to get where I want to be.” And   there are a few other things that happened, within  the first six weeks of having that surgery, which  

Is when you’re recovering. And one of the things  was the first hosting job I had after the surgery   was a live podcast with Elizabeth Hurley. Oh God. And she was sitting there?  Well, I’ve interviewed her many times. I’ve met  her many times at events. And she’s always really  

Lovely. And she’s always incredibly beautiful.  In fact, I challenge you to find a bad picture   of Elizabeth Hurley online because trust  me, I’ve looked and one does not exist.  It doesn’t She’s just-  Gorgeous. One of those   people. But because I’d had the surgery, I’d  kind of been lulled into this confidence of,  

I’ll stand next to Elizabeth and I’ll look fine.  And so again, it was another moment of, “Oh no,   this is really bad.” So she was another domino  sort of, in addition to the breast reduction that  

Made me think, “Okay, if you want to get a handle  on this, and you still really, really do, you have   to look at the thing that you are denying. You  have to look at the thing that you don’t want  

To interrogate, which is how you are eating.” So can we just go back to that? There are couple   of things about that. So the relationship with  food, was that something that has happened your   whole life? Yeah.  So as a teenager, as as a  young girl living at home? 

Yeah, I mean, no food was ever  enough. I always wanted more.  And did your parents recognise that? Or was it  secret? ‘Cause I know a bit about this because   I have had some issues with food myself. And  so my whole issue with food was that I’d eat  

Totally in secret. Down a few buckets of ice  cream, but eat nothing in front of anybody else.  Oh, yes. So the fact that I was enormous,   no one could really understand what was going on. I did that as an adult, but as a child,  

No. So my parents knew and my brother knew  that I was eating a lot and it was commented   on. And I was a kid in the ’80s and ’90s,  and so what do you think was suggested? I   was in my first Weight Watchers class at 11. Oh, they suggested that was something that- 

Yeah. Yeah.  And it was encouraged to lose weight, eat less. Of course, yeah.  And there’s no bad intention there obviously.  We know a lot more now than they did then. But   obviously, that internalised a lot of issues  with self-esteem. There were a lot of this  

Eating in secret when I was older definitely  came from that idea of, “There’s a reason why   I shouldn’t eat because it’s been said that I  shouldn’t have that food or I can’t have this,   or you shouldn’t have that.” And it just,  it really wears, it really wears you down. 

And also you become completely,  that’s all you can think about.  100%. I mean, you know, you can be talking to me   about actually thinking, , I’d be thinking, when  am I gonna have my Mars bar? Or whatever it was.  

So it’s extraordinary. So in having your breast  reduction, you thought you were gonna look thin.  Yeah. Basically.  I thought that it was gonna be the magic fix,  I thought. And I think maybe it was the movie  

Watcher in me, but I thought that there would just  be a moment where it would all come together. And   I listened to every single bit of diet advice. I  did every diet. I was also a beauty editor of a  

Magazine. So any first diet that came in, I would- Be the first to test it.  Yeah. You’d hear all of the weird things on set  or on shoots of what celebrities were doing,   and so you’d try all of it. So that compounded  the issue. And at 41, sitting there all bandaged  

Up with the image of me, with Elizabeth in  the back of my mind, I just thought, “There   has to be another way.” And maybe this sounds  really unkind to myself, but I just thought,   I remember just looking at myself in the mirror  and saying, “Are you seriously telling me this  

Is the one thing you’re never gonna be able to  do in your life, it’s just drop some weight and   keep it off? Is that really your destiny?” Gosh. And so have you seen Elizabeth out   of interest since to say to her what an  important part of your journey, she was. 

I have seen her at an event, but actually not  to have a conversation with, I don’t know,   if it’s worth burdening her with that. No, I’m just interested because I bet she’d   probably be absolutely thrilled. But the other  thing is, you put yourself in this industry,  

In the beauty industry, which must be the  most kind of threatening and you know,   totally at odds with all the things you were  going through. Did you ever think, “Should I   just move jobs? Shall I do something different?” No, never. But funnily enough, another journalist  

And I, Anita Bhagwandas, she’s written a  book called “Ugly.” She’s an Indian plus   size journalist. And we have both been amused  by the fact that two girls who got bullied at   school for how they looked put themselves  into like that environment professionally.  

Which is just obsessed with looks. But then I  will say this, I’ve now been a beauty writer,   journalist, editor, whatever you want to say,  for 20 years. And the women that I’ve met in   that industry are some of the biggest supporters  and most compassionate people. So on the outside,  

I can understand why it might look that way,  but actually I have found a community of people   where I find and feel a lot of warmth and love. Tell me a bit more about being bullied at school.   ‘Cause I think I’m right in thinking you’ve had  terrible problems with alopecia through your life. 

Alopecia, acne, facial hair, weight, those were  the real, the symptoms, the outward symptoms   of the hormone issues I had when I was in my  teens. And it’s very easy to call it bullying.   But I sort of want to have compassion for my  younger school friends, the younger versions  

Of them. I think kids generally say what they  see and unfortunately, if you are different or   if there is something different about you, they  say that too. And so if you have patchy hair,   my hair wasn’t as bad at school, I don’t think it  was. It was definitely something that got worse  

As I got older, because alopecia is progressive. Oh, ’cause it’s something that’s a kind of vicious   circle alopecia, isn’t it? The more patches you  get, the more it comes out, the more you worry.  Yeah, exactly. But then the worst thing  that anyone says Is, “Well, the worst  

Thing can do is worry about it when you go to  someone for help.” And I’m like, “Okay, well.”  “Thanks, that’s helpful.” Well, I can’t eliminate the worry. But yes,   there was definitely at school, observations  were made, shall we say, about weight, acne,  

My hair. My hair was really greasy as well as  part of the… I could produce a lot of sebum,   hence all the acne, but also really greasy hair.  And it just makes you stand out for the wrong   reasons, which really isn’t very pleasant. So coming onto your next charm, which is a  

Magazine, it’s obviously, I mean, I have drawn  it exactly as I imagine a magazine. It opens,   it’s a locket, so you can put photographs  inside it, perhaps of your younger self   and yourself now. Two very different  things, I imagine. I’ve designed it,  

It’s got the OK logo on the front in red enamel.  And then I put a little lipstick on the front,   which is kind of two-dimensional on the top of  the magazine. And it’s a lipstick shape with the  

Top off and the bottom is in black diamonds, black  Parve diamonds. And then it goes into white gold,   which is the tube that holds the lipstick. And  then I’ve put red rubies because I’m assuming that  

Red, you know, for me, lipstick is all about red.  I noticed, I saw a quote actually that Coco Chanel   once said, “If you’re sad, add more lipstick and  attack.” And I just thought, that’s quite true,   isn’t it? Kind of interesting observation. But I  mean, it’s very obvious to me why you’ve chosen  

A magazine. But I’d love to know a bit more  about your journey from thinking and wanted   to be a journalist, knowing you wanted to be a  journalist from school, and then what happened   and how did you get to be beauty editor at OK.  ‘Cause presumably, it didn’t just land that. 

No, it didn’t. So at school, I was not going  to get the grades. And very, very early on,   I think I must have been about 13 or 14 when I had  said to an English teacher that I would love to be  

A journalist or be an editor in a magazine. And I  was told in no uncertain terms that wasn’t going   to be my path because I simply wasn’t, I wasn’t  going to get the grades. But with that said, this  

Was a different teacher. I had an English teacher  called Mrs. Ridell, who, it’s very hard not to   talk about her and just burst into tears because- Oh, I can see you, yeah.  Because she, hmm. Oh, she was the one that helped you? 

Well she didn’t, this is the thing. She didn’t say  or do anything other than teach me. But she spoke   to me and tweeted me in a way as if to say,  “I know that you are miserable now and I know  

That you’re not happy, but what I see in you, it’s  worth persevering ’cause what’s on the other side   is gonna be amazing.” Oh, oh.  I know. And I’m very, very glad I had that  experience. But because she’s no longer with us. 

Did you keep in touch with her  and did she see what you’d become?  The thing about her, which is amazing, is that she  was this incredible woman who saw people. She was   also dry and tough as well. Tough as old boots.  I remember once in class we were doing poetry and  

She said, and we’d gone through, you know what  it’s like. You go around the room, you read a   verse of each of you reads a bit. And she said,  “Okay, can anyone tell me, can anyone offer an  

Explanation as to why? Why? We’ve read quite a  lot of religious poems this morning. Why there   are always… Why we always talk about eagles? Why  there were often references to eagles in poetry?”   and there was a silence. And then this one girl  who remained nameless, put her hand up and she  

Said, “Yes?” And this girl from the back replied,  “Is it because they’re birds of prey?” And she   go forward and just absolutely howled. And she  had the best laugh of anyone. So woe betide you,  

If you would say anything in front of her that was  daft or stupid or funny because she’d let you have   it. She was an absolutely incredible woman. And I  went to see her afterwards because when I got my   A-level results, I didn’t get into university. Did you get your A Levels? 

I got them, but barely. And she cornered me  downstairs. We’d gone upstairs to go and get   our results and I was walking out through the  school building and she cornered me and she went,   “You know, you came top out of everyone in that  particular part of it. It was like a three-part  

Exam.” And I was at this point, didn’t have very  many coping mechanisms and I was just sobbing.   And she sort of grabbed me by the collar, not  literally, but just said, “Right. You drive down   to Kent University right now and you ask to speak  to the undergraduate’s admissions officer and you  

Go and make your case as to why you should get a  place at that university and you go and do it and   you go and do it right now.” I was like, “Yes, Ms.  Ridell.” So I drove down to the university and I  

Found the undergraduate admissions officer.  And I can’t really remember what I said,   but I obviously said, “You should give me a  place at this university.” And he was impressed,   I think, that I had turned up. You’ve got the balls to come. 

So he walked me downstairs and he had shown me  this big pile of papers on his desk and said,   “This is everyone who’s coming through  clearing and they all have better results   than you. Why should I give you a place?” And so,  I’d obviously, I didn’t realise this at the time,  

But he was obviously inclined. My brother had been  to that university and he liked the fact that I   was a legacy, if you like, or whatever you call  it. And we went downstairs and he was basically,   he said, “Right, okay, I’ve got two  places that you can have and it’s to  

Read sociology or theology.” And I went, “What’s  theology?” And he said, “Sociology for this one.”  And that was it? And that was it.  Wow, Emma, what an amazing  story. Thanks to Mrs. Ridell.  Thanks to Mrs. Ridell. And so, I saw her, I went  around with a bunch of flowers after that just  

To say thank you. But I was a bit awkward and I  couldn’t really at that point, communicate what   she meant to me. And that’s why I get emotional  thinking about her ’cause I never got the chance.  To say thank you. But a couple of years ago, about  

Five years ago, I got in touch with her daughter  and I said, “Look, I really hope you don’t think   I’m imposing. It’s just, it’s really important for  me to let you know just how much your mom meant to  

Me and the impact she had on my life.” And she  sent me a lovely email back and essentially said   she just had this ability to see the underdog. That’s so, what an incredible, incredible story.   But it says so much on so many levels, doesn’t  it? About you in your insecurities. And clearly,  

By your reaction is actually how you really  did feel ’cause at the beginning of this,   you were like, don’t really remember  feeling miserable or, you know,   but it was obviously really, really hard. Anyway,  so that was the reason you went to university? 

That was the reason I went to university  and I had great experiences there,   but it certainly didn’t queue me up for working on  a magazine. And so when I left, I did what a lot  

Of people do and I got a sales job. And this is,  I remember, whenever I tell this story, my brother   rolls his eyes but this was very, very true. So  when I finished university, I went to New York.  Yeah. And I was determined  

I wanted to go up to the top of the Twin Towers  because for anyone who went to New York pre-2001,   they were just the most majestic. And you wouldn’t  think it of a skyscraper because we’re so used  

To them now. But you would get to New York and  then the first time they would come into view,   there would be something very, very magical about  them. And I’d been as a child and I wanted to go  

Back and I wanted to go to the top and I did.  And I remember just standing there looking at   Manhattan and also being able to see far and  wide and just, it’s a perspective on the world   that just made me think, “Oh, the world is so  huge. Anything is possible. Anything is possible.  

City that never sleeps.” Back to the movies.  Yeah, back to the movies. And just thinking  if I go home to the life that I have got,   I’m not doing right by myself if I go and continue  that. But my sales job was in the building that  

Was owned by Richard Desmond. So Richard Desmond  at the time, was the proprietor of OK Magazine.   And then went on to buy Express Newspapers. So  he was a very significant name in media. Yeah,   the whole of the 2000s. And so he owned the  building that my sales job was in, where I was  

Selling software over the phone. I hasten to web.  So not at all in line with what I’ve done since.   And I was on the ninth floor and OK Magazine was  either on the second or the third floor. My memory  

Is blurred. But every day when I would get in the  lift in the morning, I would push the button for   OKs’ floor and my floor just to be able to have  the doors open and just to see their office. 

So then one day, did you get out? Well so, I used to chat to the girls,   Tracy and Sharon on reception and they were so  much fun. And I used to like, I sometimes spent   an hour there at the end of the day, like  in reception, just chatting with them about  

Makeup and all sorts of things like that. They  were just lovely women. And when I said, “Look,   I’m leaving.” One of them said, I think Tracy  said, “You’re still into the beauty stuff. Do   you want me to make an introduction?” And at that  point, it was just, ‘Here’s her email,” because  

Rather than having to write a letter because it  was 2002. Or 2001. And then yeah, I sent an email   and asked for work experience and went and got  work experience there for two weeks. It was one   two of the greatest weeks of my life. In the beauty? 

At OK Magazine. Just helping, wasn’t specifically  beauty, but I helped out the beauty editor by   unpacking boxes, unpacking bags, some beauty  brands, and went to my first ever beauty sale   and was, oh my gosh, that’s Creme de la Mer. And  I think I was given a mascara and an eyeshadow and  

Just thought it was the greatest day of my life.  And when it came time as part of my post-grad   to complete it, one of the things you had to do  was do a placement on a magazine. And I thought,  

“Well I’ve done okay, so I don’t wanna do it  again?” I didn’t hear back from any of the other   magazines that I wrote to. And OK said, “Yeah,  we’d love to have you come back.” So I went,  

Did two weeks, then they said, and it was just  before Christmas. And they said, “Do you want to   come back in the New Year? Actually, we need some  help,” and went back. And then the editor’s pa  

Took two weeks off and they said, “Look, would  you cover her while she’s off?” And I said,   “Absolutely.” And the editor at the time was Nic  McCarthy who was amazing, just really loved her.   She was a very good editor to work under. And I  think on the second week the beauty editor, Ali  

Wick resigned. And so I thought, “Oh my gosh, what  do I do? What do I do?” I got my postgrad, but I   wasn’t on paper. I still thought I haven’t earned  this. And I went home and I said to my family,  

“I need to somehow show an interest in this job  without looking very cocky, without ruining my   relationship at OK, without them telling me to  sling my hook, without squandering any opportunity   of going back, what do I do?” And so I was trying  to think of the ways, you know what it’s like when  

You’re trying to orchestrate like the perfect  least offensive way of saying something. And   there was a features meeting that all the heads  of department go off into another room and I got   a call saying, “Emma, can you come in here for  a second?” So I thought, coffee time. So I took  

My notepad and my pen and I remember the deputy  editor at the time, Julia Davis, I walked into the   room and she just looked at me and she went, “You  better sit down.” And they offered me the job.  Unbelievable. This is like the  movies, we’re back to the movies.  

We’re absolutely back to where it all started. It was such a fairy tale. And they sat me down   and they said, “This is perhaps the worst  decision we’re ever going to make, but we   think,” and like, bearing in mind, I’ve done four  or five lots of work experience there and I was  

Now covering for the PA. I was very familiar with  everything. “And also would you do it for a lot   less than everyone else who’s applied? Completely.  I was like, yes. So yeah, that was it. And  within a week, I was sitting at my desk  

Answering the phone, not saying hello, saying, “OK  Magazine Beauty Department.” And that was that.  What an absolute incredible story that is. But  you do make, I mean, you know, it’s not lark. is   it? You absolutely make your own kind of future. There’s a brilliant saying I think, which is that,  

“Luck sits,” I think is it, “Where  opportunity and hard work meet.”  I’ve never heard that one before, but  it’s so right. You have to recognise it.  Yeah. Have to recognise it.  And there had been a lot of hard work that  had gone into it that had been leaving a job,  

Going back home, working for nothing. There had  been a significant amount of sort of pushing the   boulder up the hill, if you like. But I will say I  look back on that now and it was 20 years a couple  

Of weeks ago since that first day, 31st of March,  birthday, I was born for that job. And I do think   in a way, maybe I got my dream job too easily. Why?  Because when I got it, I didn’t  quite know what to do with it. 

Well, when you go back now, would  you change anything you did with it?  Yes, I would be calmer and I would… If I could  go back now, I would whisper in my ear. “If you  

Lose it, it won’t be the end of the world.”  But because it was my dream job and I never   believed I was going to reach it, the whole time  I had it, I was terrified of losing it. And so  

I actually didn’t enjoy it that much because I  was always putting a layer of jeopardy over it.  That’s so interesting. That’s so interesting,  but actually, you, by fearing that you’d lose it,   you probably did an absolutely awesome job.  Whereas actually if you’d been a bit less,  

“Oh well, if I lose it, I lose it.” Which I think  is quite a lot of attitude these days. ‘Cause   people change jobs so much now. That’s true.  They just think I’ll just get another job. I think I was just very uptight and because  

It meant so much to me and my identity and there  were all the layers of what it meant. If I’m the   beauty editor OK Magazine, then surely, I  must be beautiful. Like all of these stupid   emotional layers that were very real for me  but obviously don’t exist in the real world. 

You obviously did an amazing job 10  years on. Why did you decide to leave?  Well, I’ve been there a really long  time. 10 years is a really long time.  10 years is really long, yeah. I had been trying to leave for a while. I really  

Wanted to lean into the beauty side of things,  but beauty jobs don’t come up loads. And at the   beginning of my time there, it was very much the  sort of the Beckhams and the Elton Johns and the  

Sort of royal adjacent era. And by the time I  was thinking about leaving, it had very much   moved into the Jordan and Peter and the more sort  of reality star side of things. And I would go for  

Jobs on magazines and I was perfectly capable and  qualified of doing those jobs. I had two editors   in the space of about two years say to me, “I just  can’t announce that I’ve hired the girl from OK.”  God, that’s gutting, isn’t it? And so at some point, you just have  

To realise, well, yeah. It’s gutting.  But the thing was is I didn’t know how to let the  job go. ‘Cause even when I left, I took voluntary   redundancy ’cause I’ve been there too long. It  was, without wanting to say any more about it  

Than this, it was quite a toxic environment and it  was appropriate to leave, I didn’t let go of the   job when I left. It took me a while afterwards. You’ve made the brave decision to leave OK to a   world of freelance. But I’m assuming that  your last charm, which is a microphone,  

Has been an incredibly important part of your  journey since you left. So I’ll just describe   how I see this microphone. So I see it as a  kind of slightly, I don’t know why I’ve got   this thing with old fashioned, but when I see,  you know, people in a radio studio with the  

Microphone hanging from here and they’re talking  into it rather than these, so I see it as a kind   of old fashioned microphone, very large. I see it  in yellow gold with for the actual kind of foam   bit. I see that as all gorgeous black diamonds.  Totally three-dimensional. And it will move so  

That you can get it closer to your mouth, etc.  etc. And I’ve engraved on it, the Emma Guns Show,   which I’d love you to talk to me about now. It’s just beautiful. I love the charm.   I can’t take my eyes off it. So why? Why suddenly a podcast? 

So I went freelance in 2012 and things went  okay, but not great. Not great. I did a lot   of consultancy, I did a lot of things. I did a lot  of bits and bobs, but nothing really felt right. 

I started a lot of things that I wanted to  feel right. But nothing really felt right.   And there’s a parallel story here going on  at the same time in that probably a lot of   the things that were bandaged over in terms  of mental health, self-esteem, self-worth,  

All of those lovely things that I was able to put  a thin facade over with a job title that sounded   very great and really glamorous. And very busy.  And busy. Got exposed in the world of  freelance and not having any of that to  

Hide behind. And it was around 2016 that  my world sort of fell apart, if you like,   I broke down. And I had to again be really honest  about why that had happened. I was just miserable.  And was there a catalyst for that?  Because between leaving and that,  

That was quite a long time actually. Yes, it was breakdowns in friendships   that just broke my heart to be honest. And I felt  really sad, but it was the fact that I couldn’t   pick myself up afterwards. So personal relationship.  Yeah. And breakdown  

In your head because of weight and some of the  other issues that you were going through or?  I think all of it, every single issue had been  left unaddressed since childhood, which is why   I think it’s quite, when you ask the question,  did you have a happy childhood? It’s like yes,  

At the time, I thought so. But now I look back and  I see that there was some things that I learned   that I have had to spend time unlearning. Yes.  Yes, so I had no coping mechanisms whatsoever. And  I realise now when I look back through my life,  

That I was actually kind of bumping along like a  flightless bird sort of just below the surface of   properly depression. And I was just manage, I’d  be periods of low and then I’d be okay and then,   but it was very much a cycle of- Up and down. 

But not big ups and downs, just kind of skirting,  not feeling great. And I didn’t want to feel like   that anymore. And I think it was the fact that  I couldn’t… I felt like I always needed to ask  

People for help. I always needed someone else to  make me feel better about something. If something   happened to me, I’d be on the phone to friends  like, “Can you believe so-and-so said this? Can   you believe this happened?” So I had no internal  sense check. I remember my friend Katie saying  

To me, we were on holiday together and I was just  in. I mean, this is just before I properly broke   down. And in the driveway that I love her for, she  just said, “Emma, it’s like you have no emotional  

Toolkit to just handle life. I’ve never met  anyone like you.” And it was brutal. But in a way,   it was really helpful because then when I went to  a therapist, I was able to say, “Well, a friend  

Said I don’t have an emotional toolkit.” And that  was a really good starting point to go, “Oh, okay,   let’s have a think about that.” But I had been  going to the doctor for about 18 months saying,   “I’m not happy, I’m gaining weight.” GP doctor. 

GP doctor. And they were very much like,  “Well, there’s these great things called   antidepressants.” And I remember having a bit  of a tussle with him and just saying, “Look,   I don’t have anything against antidepressants, but  I believe that I’m here in this state sobbing in  

Front of you, not because of a chemical imbalance  that I need assistance with fire medicines. I am   in this state because of poor decision-making.  Because of never actually developing a sense of   self or self-worth or personality.” Or just addressing the issues. 

Just addressing the issues. And I very much  remember saying, I’ve spiralled down,” and   it’s impossible to say spiral without making the  hand gesture. But I said, “I’m here because of my   own doing.” Because the filter that I had put,  the way that I understood the world to be was  

Not helping me, it was not serving me. Everything  that life would happen and I would compute it and   I was computing it negatively and I just didn’t  wanna do that anymore. And so he said, “Well,   if you come back into my office again,  we’re putting you on antidepressants.” 

It’s just the go-to thing, isn’t it? I mean, I had been about five or six times. And I   understood where he was coming from, but he said,  “Well, there’s also talking therapy, but you’re on  

A waiting list.” And I said, “I don’t care.” And  I was not doing well at freelancing at the time,   but I just paid to go in immediately. And I  had an incredible therapist, an incredible   therapist who really helped me change my life. And was that just about, I mean obviously,  

There’s a whole series, I imagine around that.  But was that just about going back and really   investigating what some of those issues were or? Yeah, I think there’s an element of having to   look at the past in order to be able to understand  the present and inform your future. But equally,  

I’m not somebody who likes to linger on  that. For example, with the food stuff,   I could think about all of the things that might  have contributed to me developing a very unhealthy   dependency on food for comfort. But it’s kind  of like, well what’s the point in figuring out  

That exact moment? All I really can do is work on  today. So there was obviously reflection and like   talk about your relationship with your family  and everything like that. But a lot of it was,   I would say reframing. It’s like, “Okay, so you  believe that this person hates you. The world is  

Working against you. What if we did this crazy  thing where we’re like, everything is happening   for you?” Why don’t you just go out and experience  the world today? And when you leave here,   you just think that everything that happens  is happening to make your life better. See  

How you feel. It was very much… I was a big  freight that needed to be, that was going in a   very negative direction and I needed to make the  turn and that turn happens very slowly. And it was  

About 18 months of working with that therapist  to go from really broken and really terrible   symptoms of anxiety and other things to being  able to actually go out into the world and not   feel under constant attack from potential stuff. How completely liberating that must have been. 

Hmm. But why did you start the podcast?  Oh yes, sorry. Why did I start the podcast? Why  did I start the podcast? So I started the podcast   because it was almost an act of rebellion because  I had always wanted somebody to green light my  

Ideas or do them with me. And that hadn’t worked  out very, very well. Or I had always had ideas and   then brought someone on board because I wanted  my hand held. And I remember thinking, “Oh,  

I’ve got to do this on my own. I’ve got to do this  on my own. I’ve got to do this on my own.” And the   thing I was doing in conjunction with that therapy  journey was I was also plugging into podcasts way  

Before they really hit the big scene over here.  And I was listening to people like Tim Ferris, Joe   Rogan in the earlier days when he’d have really  quite interesting discussions about mental health.   Or just even like Arnold Schwarzenegger talking  about how he, I mean, I’m obsessed with Arnold  

Schwarzenegger anyway, but like hearing him talk  about how he came over to America from Austria,   how he started a demolition business where he  would go to people’s houses and just knock their   outbuildings over. And then- Who knew? 

He owns like most of California and he did all  of that before he even set foot in Hollywood.   So I’d listen to those sorts of stories. So my  own mind was kind of kicking me down and telling  

Me how terrible I was. And so I’d override it  by listening to podcasts of really successful   people who would tell these incredible stories.  And I would feel so inspired. And again, like the   movies, anything is possible. So I thought, “I  want to do that, I want to do that in my way.”  

And so that’s how the podcast started. But it  was an act of rebellion because particularly in   the beauty industry, everybody said, “Why would  anyone listen to anyone from the beauty industry?   It’s a visual means, it’s a visual media.” It’s so, I mean, it’s very brave to have  

Done that because what you’ve just described, it  sounds to me like incredibly brave step. ‘Cause   I know I get really nervous doing podcasts, you  know. Even before you arrived. I’m like, “Oh God,   you know, how am I gonna do it?” And so,  I know you’ve always been a journalist,  

But even so, it’s still quite brave  thing to do and to do that on your own.  So thank you. And to have succeeded in   the way you have. I mean, 15 million downloads.  Can you just tell me, how does that work? How  

Do you get 15 million down? What do you put  down to this huge success that it’s been.  Well, you know, I even feel uncomfortable  saying, “Well the reason why it’s.”  No, no, come on, you gotta say it. I just think maybe that’s a British thing or maybe  

It’s a female thing, I don’t know. I found a white  space. So in the UK, there wasn’t anyone really   doing, there were very few people doing podcasts  in the way they are now. So I found an audience  

Like me who are really hungry for that kind of  content early on. And I’m really grateful to   say they’ve remained loyal. And that’s incredible  because we’re at the seven-year mark. I would like   to think it’s because, I guess of the journalistic  abilities of kinda like seeing, for example, in a  

Magazine, seven years ago, you’d read an article  about hormones, but you can have a much broader,   more helpful discussion about hormone health  and women’s health on a podcast with a hormone   specialist that can actually be of more value. So  it was kind of platforming those sorts of things.  

I will always try, I always have white whales,  like these big, Arnold Schwarzenegger will always   be on my list until he is not. Have you asked?  I’ve asked many times. Have you?  So if anyone listening  knows Arnold Schwarzenegger.  Yeah, please get in touch. Please hook your sister up. 

So I mean, in the past, you’ve talked about,  you know, feeling that you weren’t good enough,   unfulfilled, all of those things. Do you  see yourself as successful now? Can you   pat yourself on the back now and say,  “I have done an absolutely awesome job”? 

Ish. I had a real period last year where I  was being really hard on myself. I think a   lot of people after the lockdowns came back  out into the real world and didn’t really   calibrate that easily. And I definitely  was somebody who found it quite difficult  

To emotionally and mentally calibrate. ‘Cause I  did very well in lockdown, thank you very much.  For sure. I’m very good on my own. And   coming back into the real world and interacting  with other people, there’s actually where  

I experienced more of my challenges. And last  year, I was really hard on myself and I was like,   “Let’s do this. Let’s do more. Let’s film the  podcast, let’s go here, let’s do that.” And I,  

At some point, in the last few months, had to go,  “What if we just appreciated where we were? Go   back to doing that and just go, ‘That’s fine.'” And that’s a lovely place to be, isn’t   it? That’s a really lovely place to be. And also define that place that’s  

Fine as that’s successful. Yes, anyway, you are incredibly   successful. And I feel very honoured that you  came on my podcast, so thank you for that. But   I’ve got one more question, which is a charm that  we haven’t really talked about, which actually is  

A green mini metro. And I love drawing this charm  because I love things that really work and that,   you know, if the wheels can spin, they’ll spin.  So this is a little mini metro in yellow gold   with green tsavorite stones all over it. Rock  crystal windows and windscreens. The doors open,  

The wheels spin. But all of that’s all fantastic.  But why on earth am I doing a mini metro?  I wanted to drive from a very young age to the  point where I would get the car keys and go into  

The garage and start the car up. And the garage  is connected to the house. And my parents would   be in the kitchen. They’d go, “What the? Who’s?”  And they’d have to run in because even I think I   did it when I was three or four. Oh great. You must love that. 

The idea of, I think I used to love it because  I used to just, obviously, you watch everything   that your parents do. And the idea of just being  able to be in charge of your forward momentum, to  

Be able to go places. Just to me, that green mini  metro was the key to so much. And so my brother’s   five years old. As I said, he has no interest in  driving whatsoever. But when we were kids, even  

From the age of I think about eight on a Sunday,  we’d be like, “Can we go to the station carpark?   Can we go to the station carpark?” Because  the train station carpark would be deserted  

And there’d be no traffic. So my dad would drive  us to the carpark and then we’d take it in turns.   My brother didn’t care. I was just like, “Get  me behind that wheel.” And we would just drive,  

I don’t know, 400 metres to one end and then like,  do a turn of the wheel. And then once you got the   turn down, that was just thrilling. So for me, the  mini metro just represents, I’ve always had this   desire of just wanting to be able to. Do. 

To do, to go places. I like to know  how things work as well. I like to-  Can you get under the bonnet?  Can you get under the bonnet?  No. No.  I mean, I can change a tyre, but I like  to know how to be able to do things and  

I just think being able to have the freedom. It’s independence, isn’t it? It’s absolutely   independence. And do you still love driving? I do. Well, I do, but I don’t drive   as much and I’m a little jittery. I love driving. Emma, as you know,  

As a huge thank you for your time, I would really  love to make you one of these charms. And so I’d   like to know which one you’d like me to make? How on earth do you choose? I’m torn between,  

Oh gosh, now I’m torn between four. No, I think  it would either have to be the microphone or the   cassette. And I’m wondering whether it should be  the cassette because it’s slightly more nostalgic.  Well, let’s do the cassette. Let’s  do the cassette. I love the idea of  

The cassette ’cause you’ll be able to  put your pencil in. You’ll be able to-  Which is what we used to do. You record the  Sunday chart shows and then the tape would-  And my normal thing would unwind,  you’d have to wind it all up. 

And it would have to be  either because of the shape.  Exactly. Or a pencil   which would allow you to turn those cogs. Exactly. Okay, well I’d love to meet you   cassette. That’s very exciting. Thank you so much.  Thank you so much. It was so lovely to talk to you.