(reposted from bike wrench, they are strict there…)
Picrel are two bikes I have. The Redwood (black) I find to be a very comfortable bike. The Allez on the other hand not so much.
The stack on the Allez is 5mm higher, reach is 10mm longer.
Redwood has a 100mm stem, Allez has a 90mm stem (I've even had an 80mm stem once). Lets just assume the rise of the bars-to-stem is within 30mm (I haven't measured it yet).
My brain is telling me the fit should be similar, but I cannot get comfortable on the Allez. Feels like I'm over extending/reaching. For context, both have short-reach drop bars (70mm)
Is the bar rise the culprit? What else should I be considering when trying to make the Allez feel more similar to the Redwood?
by DigPoke
11 Comments
Do you have the same amount of spacers on both?
The red wood had different head tube angle as well. The more spacers, the closer it will be to you.
If you have a line laser shouldbe pretty easy to actually measure both bikes and see how close they are to each other.
Could do with strings and a plum as well.
They are close. Since it’s fit and not performance, measure off fixed points on tne ground. Use masking tape or something. 2 different wheel or tires sizes it looks so that’s 1 thing and 2 different handlebars. Bars could be the problem. Compare the fit off the fixed points on the ground. You should be able to see the difference that way. Bike insights is cool but it doesn’t show component differences.
The black bike has a steeper seat tube and slacker HTA, your effective top tube length is going to be shorter than the white bike which has a slacker seat tube and steeper HTA. So on paper the stack and reach are similar, because of the relative position to the BB, the positions of the controls and saddle are in different positions for the rider. You also have to consider that these bikes are built for different purposes. The Allez is an entry point race bike, it’s going to be lower and longer, more direct feeling with short chainstays and sharp handling. The Redwood is a gravel bike, the geo is built for rougher surfaces and that means they need to improve the stability of the bike. It comes with relaxed riding positions, slower steering, longer back ends, etc.
https://preview.redd.it/sezejp37pgkg1.png?width=404&format=png&auto=webp&s=fb705820246839922fa3e91f67004d4aea914b9b
Ignore the crudeness of the drawing… you need 4 measurements here to make both bikes fit the same. I do this with EVERY new bike I buy – so they all fit exactly. This assumes you are starting with a position you wish to duplicate.
A – the distance between the seat position and the center of the crank – this determines how far forward the seat is placed
B -the fixed distance from the seat to the handle bar – top tubes vary, this will let you determine the length of the stem you need
C – Seat height – center of crank to top of seat.
D – Height difference between the seat and the handle bars – you can use a string (brown line) tied to the bars and then to the seat post – use a level to make sure it’s level – then measure the distance from the string to the seat – to determine the spacers, angles of stem, etc… to get your position correct.
When I order a new bike, I look at the frame geometry, determine the distances I am trying to replicate – choose the size and appropriate equipment (based on those measurements). Old coach taught me that…
One is a road bike and the other is a gravel bike. Besides compliancy in the frame. Some will be stiffer than others. The tires will play a roll, 28mm tires have less give than 40mm tires. They start to act like suspension in a way and it also depends on tire pressure. Fatbikes at 5psi can get real bouncy even though the frame is solid.
The head tube angle plus your stem spacers will make a bigger difference on the redwood’s reach than you suspect. The bar width and mounting point of the brifters will have an impact on the feel of the reach. The stock redwood bars are also a bit flared where the Allez is not.
Comfort while riding can also be impacted by saddle fit/angle and heavily by your tires and PSI. IMHO, the Redwood with it’s plush tire setup is a very comfortable bike. Going to be hard to compare against a road race bike when rolling.
Bike fit differences are certainly something worth discussing, but it’s not a good fit for r / bike wrench and that’s fine. They can focus discussions there a little more on maintenance and repair.
Comfort is not the same thing as fit, and neither are the same thing as geometry.
They all come together additively (or subtractively) to produce your riding experience.
A bike optimized around 650B wheels will almost always feel and perform differently to a similarly sized and geo’d bike optimized for 700C
It’s hard to get the full picture of why your bikes perform so differently when you’ve left out your height, and body measurements, as well as tire width, and other crucial factors that all influence the riding experience.
Bottom line, it seems to me like you’re kind of asking an apple and an orange to taste the same, and then getting confused when they don’t.
Have you measured and confirmed that your fit is the same on both bikes?
First thing to check will be the saddle height and setback. Everything else you measure fit-wise will be based off of that. (Keep in mind that crank length will affect your saddle height measurement if you’re measuring from the center of the bottom bracket.)
Use a plumb bob (string tied to a weight) to check the saddle setback from the center of the bottom bracket. If both of your saddles are the same shape, you can hang the plumb bob off the tip of the saddle while the bike is on level ground. IMPORTANT: if one of the bikes has a short-nose saddle (such as a Specialized Power) and the other one doesn’t, you’ll have to subtract the difference in effective length from the setback measurement of the short-nose saddle.
From there, you can measure handlebar drop and effective reach, then use stems and spacers to get the bars where you need them.
Beyond that, other posters are right – the Allez will probably be less comfortable over a long ride because it’s twitchier and has a shorter wheelbase, among other factors.
I hope this all makes sense.
use [bike-stats.de/en](http://bike-stats.de/en) and add the components (spacers, stem, bar, hoods, saddle, cranks) so you can see the difference in contact points.
Maybe seat tube angle/seatpost/saddle position
Stack and reach aren’t the only parts of the equation. The Allez has a slacker seat tube angle as well, which means that for a given seat height the saddle will be further behind the BB than on the Redwood. So the effective reach is more than just the 10 mm extra stated on the size chart.
As others have said you should also compare the spacers on both bikes. If you have 50 mm of spacers on the redwood and the Allez is slammed then the stack figures on the chart don’t mean anything either. A low stack will also contribute to a stretched out feeling