This eye-opening session revealed how forensic accountants uncover fraud, trace hidden assets, and ensure corporate accountability. we covered the fraud triangle, red flags, investigative techniques, and how forensic analysis supports justice and transparency in financial systems.
#youngfinanceleaders #yfl #Fraud #forensicexperts
>> Young Finance Leaders: Okay, nice now. Hi everyone. Good evening, and welcome to another. Session of Rifle 3.0. Can I see like it comes up August? Just give me an image. You give me an emoji. Yeah. Yeah, welcome Faith and son and welcome everybody. Welcome Reggie. I’m the last TV. fire. Welcome. I am particularly excited about this one because I think I just like the Pharisee. Proud of our continent. I feel that is my this like would be an interesting part of accounting that I really don’t know about. But welcome to another edition of wifel 3.0. And yeah, I’m sure I might be disregularly beats because I was meeting people in So yeah. See. Seconds. Yeah. So welcome everyone. Yeah, so our Faceto is in already Praise Jonathan. And before we start, I think like we already know what’s well Faith is about how far is a community, like, I always say that is dedicated to empowered in extension of finance leaders, and we do that by British after school and getting into the workplace. No, there’s a gap that we don’t know about young stars, young God with coppers, there’s this gap or there’s this miracle mentorship indeed, in quotes to be able to function perfectly in the workplace and that’s what Ivelance comes to breed. We do this by having trainings like this program like this. For our good year. So I’ll be reading the Bible speaker. This would say, Okay, we are like 69 When it’s full, I’ll drop the YouTube Live Stream link on Whatsapp Group chat, so that we can also have the YouTube class. So how you So that we go straight into it because we know that’s why I remember that questions when they start my spread in you lots of time. Yeah, okay. So Praise Jonathan. Praise Jonathan is a result driven for practitioner now with five years of, and on experience in Forestic investigation and integrity. Services. Is Johnny began at PwC for racing team, where we’re quickly. Should a commitment to. Truth. Transparency and Excellence You later joined Copper Nigeria a leading tech and credit firm where he served as an investigator and analyst applying the Target insight to convert financial crime. Sounds interesting today. It leads as the head of integrity. Services at prove next consulting, way. Organizations, build trust, true. Tell her that show us and forensic solution. With a degree in psychology from OAU and specialized degree in forensic accounting and fraud examination from West Virginia University. He brings a unique blend of behavioral in size and investigative skill to every engagement It is easy, is it? kind of content, any proud member of the time Institute of Loan, I Risk Management of Nigeria He started reflect a passion for integrity growth and impact. Qualities. It bring to every platform. He says Ladies and gentlemen, well fail with a round of virtual applause. Can welcome. Praise Mr. Praise Jonathan. He’s here. I mean I Mr. Praise let me just Can you just speak? Second heal? You okay. Yeah, found you. >> Praise Jonathan: Yes. >> Young Finance Leaders: Everything you need to. >> Praise Jonathan: Can everyone hear me? Am I audible? >> Young Finance Leaders: Yeah, we can’t. So >> Praise Jonathan: All right. >> Young Finance Leaders: Yes, you are. So And they also is ask questions there. So at the end of your session, we bring you questions from both YouTube class and then this class and then >> Praise Jonathan: All right. >> Young Finance Leaders: Round up. Thank you. >> Praise Jonathan: All right, that’s fine. That’s fine. How long how long should is this class supposed to hold just to be just be sure. >> Young Finance Leaders: For one. >> Praise Jonathan: All right. >> Young Finance Leaders: hour 30 minutes that’s which is with Q and 15 minutes Q&A inclusive. So you have like one hour, 15 minutes to yourself and then we do 15 minutes for Q&A. At the end. >> Praise Jonathan: Okay, okay. So this is a, this is a very good initiative, so far so good for those of you I don’t know, I’m Kyotic Alamo is my friend. He had I think he took the session on. Is it finance or deals to be precise? Yes. Trade deals. Yes. So we We got into PwC at the same time even though he chose to go to deals. I Was a specialist for four and six. Yeah. But I mean, All the way to now. So this is a very good initiative. I mean I want to upload Yfl firstly and I don’t know, who has, who owns that buy you that they just that it just Rado. Well, I beg. I’m just this is flesh and blood. I am. yeah, for those of you that are Christians, they would say I’m Jesus said I’m Emmanuel of like passion So exactly, I’ve just the mind of like passion like every single one of you. So, oh now packaging. You’re Nigerian. Exactly. Oh, now what it’s all packaging. All right. So, I’ll do just, I’ll just get into it because of time. So feel free. I I mean for me I would rather as a class is going on. And if you have questions to ask, you can just ask as we go. However, I mean since the coordinator said, they’ll be time for question and answer, I can also work with that. And alright. Alright, that’s fine. And Just give me a minute. Let me get my presentation open. Okay. Is my screen up. And everyone’s in my screen. Like, for just for clarity, I can’t see the chat anymore and I can’t see your gesticulation. So perhaps someone kind of mute if you can see my screen just to you know, just confirm >> Young Finance Leaders: Okay. That’s it. >> Praise Jonathan: Can anyone hear me? >> Young Finance Leaders: Not yet nothing. We can’t hear screen yet. Can you hear me? >> Praise Jonathan: Okay. Okay, not yet. All right, give me >> Young Finance Leaders: I think it is coming up. Yeah, it is up. >> Praise Jonathan: All right. Good, good. Good good. Alright. so, I’ll just go ahead from here. So, I started with presentation on covering financial truth. a Guide to Forensic Accounting and Fraud Examination. I wouldn’t know if the entirety of my audience here is made up of just students or we have maybe some professional colleagues as well. I mean, I believe there are some people here who might have had up to 10 years experience, even more than more than I have self. And then, you know, that just yeah, for me there, for me, home ability. You know, that’s why I said, owner packaging in the end. But however, I mean, just before, before I start this, I would just like us to. I mean, I’d love to meet every single person. Individually. But I mean, it’s three three would work fine if they people can’t just, you know, show, if you can’t show your picture anyways. You so or do I see video? You kind of show your video. I mean, just say just there was your name, you know, you’re doing university, your university, university, your employee, you can tell us, you know what role, your employed in and I’m what you’re looking to gain from the session. Just to start with. So anybody. Just on mute your video as well. Or do I begin to call names? I may find of calling names anyways. but if you like me to call names, I can’t do that. So who would like to go apart from? Why? I feel like I’ve been seeing why I feel faith since so when somebody we need three different three different people, you know, someone else, if you can share your video, share your video, just your name, your university, your university university, if you’re working. Maybe I mean, where you’re working and your rule where you’re working. I’ll just like to get have an idea of my audience here. So quickly quickly quickly. You don’t have much time so we can. have time for quick. Okay, boluwatife holiness. >> BOLUWATIFE HOLINESS ALAGBE: All right, good even everybody. Can you confirm if you can hear me? Okay, my name is Boluwatife Holiness Alagbe and I’m a founder level lost. students of the University of Ibadan. I am not working yet. I’m still today, and I have special interest in. Commercial. And Finance law. From this. session, I’m hoping to gain a guy to Verizon accounting and for the examin. >> Praise Jonathan: I believe the combination of law. >> BOLUWATIFE HOLINESS ALAGBE: like okay working in a corporate or commercial organization you can always rule out the fact that some people who try to >> Praise Jonathan: and accounting is what you call forensic accounting? Yes, simply put so that is very much appropriate. So we have two, >> BOLUWATIFE HOLINESS ALAGBE: be fraudulent. So how do I be perfect? Inst >> Praise Jonathan: more hands. Damilola David Please go ahead. >> Damilola David Olunuga: All right. Good evening everyone. Come here. >> BOLUWATIFE HOLINESS ALAGBE: like that? I was because I have to overwin do some precious situations are right. >> Praise Jonathan: And yeah, yes, yes I can. >> Damilola David Olunuga: Okay, I am Damilola David Olunuga. graduate from the Department of Classics, University of Ibadan. And I’m currently working as my financial advisor at Leadway Assurance. So I’m looking to transition into. the financial industry, actually. So that’s part of the reason why I’m actually taking this yfl training, so actually pick out my niche. I know I want to focus on, although I have interest in financial analysis and investment banking >> Praise Jonathan: Okay. Nice, nice, beautiful. Maybe by the end of, by the end of this training will be able to convert you to forensics, hopefully, because we don’t have a little forensic practitioners and Nigeria, I mean, that niche is so small. I can see so small because in my team in TWC. >> Damilola David Olunuga: Okay. >> Praise Jonathan: in my team in PWC, we were just, we were just seven. Like, the whole team, the interference system is seven. And compared compared with the workload that was coming in. We had we’re having companies consulting us, you know? I mean in the month you can be on three, four, engagements. We just seven, you know, it team of it’s more just seven people. I mean well, I know right now they’re about 12 which is still not a lot compared to other departments like kayodequal Amos departments ready about 32 or 42 in deals the entire deals in PwC. So we don’t have a whole lot of people who want to delve into this place, so hopefully by time we are done, you’ll be convinced. That is where God wants you to be. He’s not with. I said it too, I’m not, I’m not God’s mouthpiece. I haven’t a lot of famous Samuel, I think. Yes. Let’s go ahead. >> olorunfemi samuel: Um, good evening, everybody. My name is Samuel alone filming a 400 level student of the Department of Economics University of Ibadan. So, um, in these Meeting or class. Let me see. I Am. Looking forward to. 15 More knowledge and more enlightenment on forensic, how we dictates crime and how to undo them when you need arises. Thank you. >> Praise Jonathan: You know, thank you so much. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Everybody I’m economic students. Also wants to understand, for instance, I hope when I don’t go for any learning this, this course, you know, you’re not going to try to come Chief economics for PWC. Is there you become partner, for instance partner? You know, for KPMG, Nigeria, you know what I Nigeria. And the likes. Alright, so without further ado, let’s get into the session proper. Um, all right. So on covering financial truths, a Guide to Forensic Accounting, you know, without having to call anyone now, I’ve said it before. So it’s simple. Definition of forensic accounting is fraud. Or accounting meeting law. Is like that the bridge between accounting and And low. So, when we say, for us forensic accounting is simply means, you know, applying accounting and investigative techniques with more emphasis on investigative techniques. To examine financial records for irregularities. All right. there are people. There are there. There are so many people who, I mean, who I meet from time to time and, you know, having to explain forensic accounting has been a hustle. So when so whenever I don’t ask me now, I’m very quick to say. I’m just, I’m just an accountant because whenever I see for a sec and then everyone goes, Oh what is that? What did they? And what did they do? Are you sure it’s not debit and credit? Which one is that one? I usually are you sure? I usually I’m making money, you know, all of those kind of question, You know? I mean Nigeria. So I rather just I’m an accountant. However, for you guys are my limit colleagues, that’s where I see you guys now. First accounting. Means what apply investigative techniques to examine financial reports, you know, when you’re looking at that monument account, when you’re looking at that ledger account, when you’re looking at that ledger, when you’re looking at that journal, You know, when you’re looking at invoices, when you’re going for assets verification, as an auditor. You know, as a forensic person, you’re not just going there to confirm accuracy. and and that is, that is very, very key. The main difference between an auditor. and the forensic person or if you come accountant, is that an auditor is trying to confirm accuracy. Of financial records. If forensic accountant is intentionally looking out for fraud. So, when we are examining financial records but we are examining them for this. soul purpose. Of trying to find throat. So, I mean, if I know it all comes in and he’s just trying to check. Oh okay. This receipts matches with what was posted We because we have the mind to actually find fraud. We don’t just want to see the receipt. We want to see the goods. Besides seeing the goods, we also want to see how the goods was utilized over That one, year spine was there poofreach to fridge me stealing Did anyone take? I’m the what was I was there and asset diversion? Yes, you know, by employees of that particular thing that was bought You know that is how far if racing accountants would go. Because again, our goal is to try to find fraud. You know, we’re not just there to check that. This that image is B. They want to ensure that there is so. So, I mean, why not how to look for fraud of course, but let me know. See we try to catch, you know, catch things in the sky and, you know, I think like that like my like, like, one of my partners will see. However, we’re going in there to try and catch, who is it? If Who is the person who is trying to come in front in this company and I’m for accountant in the company. I usually our first go to person because we feel like because you have because you have very, very knowledgeable about accounting. It’s very easy for each manipulate records and you can’t easily cover your tracks. I mean, and I can’t dance who I’ve been in practice for about 10 years 15 years has enough experience to be able to divert funds. to be able to commit creative accounting without anybody noticing, but for instance, account and who is trained in that field. with most likely still be able to get will still be able to, you know, to get this person or to, you know, to identify the fraud. Now, when we see fraud examination, that is brother. That is much much broader. Now for if while the forensic accountant is strictly focusing on financial records. If for Examina is, is focus on all kinds of road, apart from accounting for. So there are things like procurement fraud, there are things around Um, harassment workplace, harassment, there. Are we still doing allegations? There is a asset diver. Wonders, I said you. are precious. There is a money laundering. Yes, there is embezzlement of fonts. So there is a there is fishing there is social engineering. So all kinds of fraud. Yeah, belong under. I mean, the person who examines all kinds of road every single kind of fraud, it’s called an examiner. If fraud examiner. Now where we now combine both of them without say, Oh, I’m a forensic accountant. And if for examiner, I mean, but some people would but some people would simply say I’m in front examiner, and that’s it. Because usually almost every for examiner. Is also a forensic accountant just by training just by just by by the experience. Yeah, also forensic accountants. My experience. However, not all forensic. Accountants are fraud examiners, I think that is that is very, very key. Right. That is very, very key. Not on forensic. Accountants are for examiners. However, all or mostly all for the examiners are forensic, accountants by so now, What are some common misconceptions? we see when it comes to when it comes to When it comes to fraud. Yeah, so so many people see friends, accountants as That is why, like I said, earlier, is difficult to explain this to explain this thing to a lemon or to lay women. you know, I mean, some one of my friends who says Le man and usually women, I mean, but I mean yeah only man in my honest opinion press. So some people when you just tell them, I mean, friends, I can’t be like, Oh, you want auditor I mean, and because I don’t want to argue, I don’t want to get into that conversion of having to having to convince you that they are different. our desist from, you know, from having that conversation, I’m just agree with you that yes I’m an auditor however for you my Leonard colleagues, they are very different, you know, I’ve said it before auditors are trying to show accuracy, we are trying to find deception Right. We are trying to find fraud. We are trying to find how you have patched up numbers in your financial statement. If any of you is familiar with the case of world come, A very notorious fraud from I Think 1992, They’re about won’t come. Yes. Now what they were doing in that company was because the manager stood that a very smart so when they make the way they were they were making expenses. I mean expenses, such as they buy maca. Or the buy the buy already called the buy my car, the bike chairs, the bike cops, they buy, you know, call every kind of expense that is not capital expenditure. that he make in the company when they make this expenses, instead of them to put this expenses as a line item in their profits or loss accounts, which will decrease profit. Because expenses reduce your profit. What did they do? They converted this forms. What did they do? All these expenses and capitalize them in the balance? sheet? So, you have expenses that way, um, you have items that I was supposed to appear in the P&L as expenses. And instead, they were appearing in the balance sheet. as part of Non-current asset. So meaning that their profit, their net profit for the year was overstated. And a while they are liquidity ratio. or their financial performance analysis, done with the balance sheet was very very exciting for what, for investors. And that was their goal, they did that successively for about three years. Before they were caught. and when they were caught to show you how to show you why this is, I mean this, this particular field forensic accounting. It’s not just, it’s not just key for auditing. It is I see that almost working part and parcel with audition so if you are an auditor you want to understand forensic account into the core Because they can be legal implications for you. so, as I was saying, still on the world come so eventually, when the photo discovered and the front was discovered by An independent auditor. Not the only auditor they had young auditors, right? And down auditors, did not find this fruit. again, like I said, I know he’s trying to find accuracy. So perhaps they had seen the record for the expenses. and perhaps, I mean, it was Forcedified, they might have the invoice might have said, the purchase them a vehicle mean. Well, the entirety of that money was spent on refreshment for the company. And then there’s nobody there. The orders are not saying, Oh, let’s go and see the vehicle. or maybe they ask that question and then those ones said, Oh, the very cool have been sold. It has an army, it has been impounded or something, so it took an independent a different examiner to coming saw, that was able to discover it and because of that, The company was closed down. Now the fame in charge of audits in the company for three years. Do we actually be fine? They’re running to millions of dollars. So 100 right, we’re not just talking now. Here you run into millions of dollars so they can be legal implications. If you are an auditor and for one reason or the other, your your always stating all this financial statement presents. A fair was that I was that word that it was just now if I am accurate value. Hey, >> Young Finance Leaders: Throughout the >> Praise Jonathan: hey, it’s true and faith view. Yes, you give your qualified opinion or qualified opinion as they kiss, maybe. You know, there are legal implications when you do such things. not knowing, I don’t not knowing, or with knowledge, a fraud is going on or having going on in that particular company. now, secondly, Numbers. Right? Is more than just numbers. I don’t know if you listen to my to my bio area, One of the things I was mentioned, is I finished with I finished from psychology. That was my, that was my, my first my first degree. so, When it comes to investigations and forensic accounting in fact everything investigations. I’m not just even saying this is, this is financial, it can be science, you know, there is a There is a discipline called forensic science Anything investigations is more than just numbers. It’s more than just mixing chemicals you know is science student here you’re trying to find out get somebody’s fingerprint for analysis and you know it’s more than all of that he involves behavioral analysis right there could be somebody who get with somebody in the company. Who is actual question the fraud. And because when you walk into that company, on the day, you were supposed to investigate or one of your investigation days, I had to interview that person. You notice a certain body language. and that body language was all you needed to make you prove that person more, in fact, in fact that was like the lead. All the lead you needed on that particular investigation so you said As soon as you television you said no I have a feeling this person. This person is hiding something. I just don’t know what it is and then be because you have seen that abnormal behave, you that person is showing or, you know, something something the color like he didn’t gym. Yes, but you just seat and as soon as you see, it begins to just what to, to focus on that particular person. You know, and that might be all the lead you need. Are you able to close your case within like two three weeks because by time you focus on that person. you’re able to get all the facts you need. Are you able to, you know, to should that that person is the actual person who committed fraud so it involves behavioral analysis, it involves interviews. So if you’re somebody who is not comfortable, I’m doing interviews. Yeah, different. Yeah. All sorts of interviews. There are admissions again interviews. So in admissions interviews, if anybody, even if you are watched any, um, investigative movies, involving FBI, you know, one of I think this is what I used to working for CBI, although I’m not sure if it’s still sorry. Yes, I don’t see. Yes, I yes. so, you find people who because they are trying to get someone to admit to admit that the committed a crime, there’s a way to frame each question. So each question is, is a, he’s like a feedback loop. They want you to keep giving them what they want to hear. To be able to get you to say something that would incriminate you. Right? So there are two kinds there is, there is that kind of interview, which is admission seeking, there’s another one that is process seeking interview. So before you have to before you can investigate anything in a place, you need to understand what is obtainable in that place, right? So you want to know? Um, how what is your procurement process? Like, What is your finance process? Like, you know, What is the inventory process like What is Yeah, we should blowing process. Like, you know, and and all on. So you want to know exactly what processes are in place before you begin to investigate, right? Now, you also need to know you need. You also need to have legal knowledge and auditor. On the other hand, might not need as much legal knowledge, as a forensics person. If forensics accountant or before examine, I need to have concrete illegal knowledge with particular emphasis on evidence gathering Evidence gathering very key. I think the I’m the latest evidence low in Nigeria is the evidence act of 2021 revised. so you want to, you want to consume that as much as possible if you want to go into this space but it’s very key for you to know what is admissible, or what is not admissible in court because I’m a different expression. The truth is they can call you at any time to come and get testimony in court. I must be able to come and stand. I say, Oh, I investigated this, this led to this, this letter, this letter did, and these are the evidences you don’t want to get evidence that the cost will three weeks. So you need to have legal knowledge on the other hand and auditor is not so you know you don’t need so much. Because again, an auditor is no packed is not around. He’s not he’s not nobody will call him to have to come and give testimony or whatever thing he has found as an auditor, right? The highest that I will get to his arm Egypt, anonymity. When do a command present, their findings of whatever company. But you as a forensic person you can call before calling facts if you can’t even investigate, I mean, to use pigeon, you fit, you faith investigate person, you see, at the end of the day, they will fire the person from the company and then person who comma, sue that company. And I went Benjamin comes to Suda Company, they’ll come call you with your coconut head. Will you call yourself Investigator? Oh yeah, we get kiss for koto. Command presented findings to the courts. yeah, what I’m saying, then you, if you’re somebody who is no vast with with Lego knowledge, if you don’t understand evidence garden, I’m guarding you don’t understand the Nigerian litigation process. it becomes very difficult for you become very s*****, right? So that’s why it’s very key for you to understand now. It’s beyond discovery, right? um, although I’ve focused so much on investigation, you know, trying to find and find and fine, but it’s beyond that. It’s it’s beyond trying to find fruit. It’s also about putting controls in place. Yeah, it’s it’s proactive just as much as it is reactive. Right. So as a forensic, >> Young Finance Leaders: Very confident if you can hear him. I think it is network. Or is it? Okay. >> Praise Jonathan: Charge. He’s I, 18 Plus content. You know. >> Young Finance Leaders: I praise. >> Praise Jonathan: I am. Yes. Can you >> Young Finance Leaders: You know, we couldn’t hear you for like 10 seconds ago your language. >> Praise Jonathan: Oh, okay. Alright, let me let me just let me switch the connection just so yeah, okay, is this is this much better? >> Young Finance Leaders: yeah, we can hear, you know, >> Praise Jonathan: And is my screen still on display? >> Young Finance Leaders: Yes, it is. >> Praise Jonathan: All right, all right, so I’ll just go ahead. So I said, as if accountant, you’ll beyond, you know, just there to try to see, right? You there to try and prevent the thief from stealing, If that makes sense, right? You’re not just there to To to test risks or to test controls, you’re there to access risk before, you know beforehand, right? I’m one of the things we’ve learned is as fraud is very subtle. Fraud is fraud in many snatches is subtle it. Yeah, there’s a kind of broad you call obscure fraud, right? It’s it’s not. So here at the same time, it’s healing, right? Fraud can be very open. It can be something that is is so clay, but not everybody can see. Also, you’re walking and rescue. Then you go to see because it’s in the open. But even your auditors cannot even see it, you know? And I mean, these are just some common misconceptions. And then I also want to add. Yeah, some people think that fraud or, you know, forensic accounting is a is a discipline where Where it is very high risk and they can kill you. Somebody feeds. Just, I’m going to use speed, you know, person, if you put you for your chick, For office. Let me see. Moses are like this bar before, you know, your leg, your leg, which was actually proceed. You know, or something like that. Yeah, so people who have that idea, they see that’s a very risky field. Is risky. I’ll be, I’ll be honest. It’s recent, however, the risk is not it is exaggerated. Yes, it’s not to the extent of what I hear outside, right? Or what I can proceed, even auditors, to even be naruto to is risky to be to be armed to be very honest. so, the risk, I’ll see there’s risk, there’s risk. In terms of you kind, you can get combat with people who you call your friends. Of how to investigate somebody. Somebody who was at the party to me. At some point. Actually, I had to help him to give the person out. I was part of that team, you know, and it resulted in, You know, I’m you know, backlash, you know. I mean you know having to having to do with your friend is noisy and then trying to get you to be on your side. But mean while what you’re watching covering, Is just is, I mean, it’s it’s it’s obvious that I want to welcome it in the floor. And you have to lose friendship. You know, for that particular reason, it’s risky in the sense that there are people who might whom I want to threaten, you I’ll be honest. yeah, so many people who might threaten you they might say things like, you know, people who can say things around, Oh, if you try this, if you try this here and just try face, now, see You know, you might hear such statements when you’re in the field, but again, I’ll see as much as those risks are, there it is. It is exaggerated. I’ve been here for five years from what I’m five years now. It is my sixth year. I’ve had people who have been here for 10 temples. Yes, they are doing very fine. So just very much eyes if you know how to, you know, that. I mean, you want to go and get you to go and get you? Well, no, that’s not, that’s not my advice. I mean for me. But however, we have people who just trust who trust your faith, right? They trust your faith. So their faith so much. I’m Christian I trust my faith. Somebody that happens to me anyways. So I keep doing the work, you have people who are Muslims, the I mean, what they pray, and then that’s the end to go about the idea as usual. And, and, and one thing I should know, is, yes, I think things that will not come to you, if you don’t want to come to you, Basically. So All right, so we have an icebreaker. I’ve been the one talking since I want somebody to talk. Now, we have two ice breakers. These are two very beautiful. Puzzles. >> Young Finance Leaders: What you can see your screen is the front page, your current financial truth. So to be sure if US pages, okay, It’s right now. >> Praise Jonathan: Oh okay, it’s raining now, right? >> Young Finance Leaders: Yeah. Bo. >> Praise Jonathan: All right, all right. >> Young Finance Leaders: Second and third slide. I didn’t. >> Praise Jonathan: All right, so now you just so let me just let me just Reshare. To be sure. I’ll just share the screen again. So one minute can you see my screen now? >> Young Finance Leaders: Yes, you can. >> Praise Jonathan: All right, all right. So I’ll go back to having this displayed. Oh sorry. So you guys didn’t see the second and the third slide. Oh my body. All right. >> Young Finance Leaders: You do. That’s always fully to >> Praise Jonathan: All right, all right. My sincere. Apologies. Everyone my professional colleagues. Yes. Like I would say All right, so we have to icebreakers. I’ve been talking since my my mouse is paining me so I need someone to I need someone who can answer, you know any of these icebreakers. There are two dogs in front of a dog. Two ducks behind the dock and the dock in the middle. How many ducks are there? All together? I can’t see. I can’t see the shadow, so you have to unmute if you want to speak. All right. Go ahead. >> Young Finance Leaders: Um, wofai. He cannot see the chat. So if I want to speak, >> Praise Jonathan: Please speak speak. I able to speak. I can’t see the chat. So. >> Ogungbayo Oluwaseyi: yeah, you >> Wofai Usang: Seven. >> Praise Jonathan: Seven ducks. All right, seven ducks go to four. That is one answer please. Who else I don’t answer. Thank you so much for attention else. >> Sani Lawan: Hello. Good evening. Can I speak? >> Praise Jonathan: Yes, please go ahead. >> Sani Lawan: I think there are five dogs there. >> Praise Jonathan: There are five ducks there. Are you Sunny Leone? Who else? Who else? Who else wants to go? Who else wants to go? Girls want. >> Nwankwo Chisimchere: Hello. Good evening. >> Praise Jonathan: Yes, go ahead. >> Nwankwo Chisimchere: There are five dogs. >> Praise Jonathan: Oh, there are five ducks. Alright. Alright. Alright beautiful. Okay so the answer is actually five, but I I appreciate those who thought, who thought he was seven. I mean, every idea, every idea is welcome the reason why I put the reason why some of these videos are there is because when you’re when you’re forensic accountants or investigator and I mean every piece is like a riddle. I’ll be very honest that’s on kisses you could you could be trying to find who committed a fraud for as much as two months, are you still do not have a lead? So trying to solve riddles, if you’re somebody who’s excited by problems. Um, yes, this particular field is for you. Now, the second icebreaker five. People were eating apples, it finished before B. Was behind C. D finished before E. But behind B. What was the finishing order? So, who wants to go? I mean this one this one is more. Definitely. Okay. Mariam Suleiman, has a hands race. Yes, quiet. >> Mariam Suleiman: From C, A B D E. >> Praise Jonathan: C, a B D E was always said. All right, or I see a B d E. So, come D, so Mariam, has kept D. as half finishing order, who else has another one. >> benjamin oludayo: He? >> Praise Jonathan: See, a b d E as well. Same thing. All right, so we have another cab D. You can’t see the screen. Oh sorry please can everyone see my screen? >> Young Finance Leaders: I can. >> Praise Jonathan: Okay. Okay. So um So, yes, in the afternoon of any other person, it is actually C, a b D. E that is coming. Not Cadbury and Cab D. Alright, so we’re having more ice precious along the way because I need to hear everybody’s away from time to time. Okay, so we’ll go ahead. So, understanding fraud. Now, when we say fraud, what do you mean by fraud? Fraud Design Intentional Act, right? >> Young Finance Leaders: You cast screen. >> Praise Jonathan: You see how my eyes because all beautiful. Thank you very much. >> Young Finance Leaders: This up. It’s up now. >> Praise Jonathan: He’s up now, right? Let me show. >> Young Finance Leaders: Yes. >> Praise Jonathan: All right, all right. so we said fraud, when we see fraud fraud is Deception. Musically for this basically deception, right? Deception made for personal. Financial sometimes deception made to benefit somebody else. You might not actually be yourself. you know, deliberately trying to misrepresent things or to conceal things, you know, there is a, there is this thing that nobody said in, Now, we see in the law, ignorance is not an excuse, right? The fact that you didn’t know you that are you not know that? Something is fraud, is not an she’s before the law? you cannot come and prove. I mean, unless your lawyers are agbaje’s, I’m sorry for for the loss students now here. Um yeah, some of them that I might be so confident that they might want to prove that yes, this person did not know and because he did not know this person is not liable in court. but however, you know is something we see off on ignorance is not an excuse, the fact that I didn’t know it is wrong, does not mean you are not liable. To the consequences of that particular. So, most times fraud is intentional. And is not a mistake. Again, most times fraud is intentional. Most of the time fraud is intentional. There are certain instance, is, therefore can be a mistake. However, in most cases. Over five years of experience. my partners will over 10 years experience, the the certified financial decided for examiner body ecfe. They will tell you the same thing fraud is mostly intentional. So when you hit our somebody committed fraud, most of the time, you should you should want to ask what motivated fraud if you want to ask. Oh, how did it happen? What it was a mistake. You might want to first, try to find out the motif. because I can tell you in most cases, Everybody has a motif for committing fraud. I mean it can be whatever for whatever reason which will come to find out later. There is usually motivation for fraud. Now, these are some common types of road, I can show my screen. We have these are, this is not exhaustive. I mean, yeah, all sorts of fruit, all These are just some of them. You have false representation. so so for instance, you’re trying to, you’re trying to convince or you’re trying to you, you stitch something that will lead someone to act in a particular way. You give someone information that oh, they’re sharing or their giving our phones for free. Somewhere. And then a person goes there only for the person to go there. And get robbed. You presented in misleading statement to that person. That may the person who go to where everybody says to go coming from before the law. I can’t assure you. that even if you were not the one who committed that particular, um, the robbery maybe, you know, maybe you, maybe. Maybe your own plan was just to maybe your own plan was just to, you know, just to make a joke. right, I just said, Oh, ah, only There’s a place out there who’s on. So, I’m sure. They are selling phones. Sorry, I’m giving our phones for free Samsung. In fact, say, you might even show the person you own USA, I’ve collected You know, I don’t know how you would have gotten a brand new Samsung phone. I then a person is going there to go and get his own and then the person go wrong there, Right now you would the owners will be on you and your lawyer to prove to the court that I was not you. That connived with whoever it is, we call it. I’m conspiracy. That caused by whoever. To rob that person or even you perpetrating. so, but again, everything started from a misleading statement A misleading statement. In his living stick. Now, it could be a business statement of material fact, Like, in the case of for those of you who are aware of it, you could have, you could have told the family member on knowingly. You have stated a fact. To the person, say, Oh, we are working on solution, so my job within a between this company and I mean, my time the image is going to be a very big. You’re trying to communicate that. It’s a fact you’re coming into that person right now on knowing to you or on the nose to you. This president has been looking for where to invest is 2.4 billionaire. Many person just go somewhere to go and what goes go behind. You goes to buy shares of that company. Just before that. Major was done. I didn’t by doing that. I mean at some point efcc or the frca comes for your head. See, ah, one from one, one of your cousins, just bought shares is also company just before You were able to close that major or your firm or your own company. Let’s add in your working for a PWC. That I oh one of the companies I worked on one of your cousin just bought shares before. You were you like, like you were the lead on that particular engagement before you? Will you be able to conclude our major of those to come and of the two companies. And now the value of his shares has almost doubled or tripled. You know things like that. You have you made a statement of material fact to that person. It was in fact And then depression was able to use that thing. Right. And has gone to go and commit fraud, not knowing, I mean again it’s your cousin might not know that what he has done is fraud. But again, Ignorance is no excuse. And that thing is knowledge of falsity. I’ll give an example. There was someone? There was a case. One of the case that I was living in PwC then we had members of the department who? Yeah. Away. That’s somebody was committing front but they but they did not bring it to anybody’s attention. they didn’t tell management, they didn’t tell auditors they didn’t tell whoever but they were away. Now, switch on switch was going on. But it didn’t tell anybody. Right? So there can be instances where you have knowledge that fraud is going on again. That is why we should blowing channels are there. If you cannot confront the person, if you cannot go and report You can’t drop. You can drop this thing. I am as I wish you blowing allegation. I’ll leave it for HR or leave it for internal audience now control, or if you have any investigator in the internal audit team to take it up and try and find out exactly what you have. Just reported no, usually And usually, when you, when you carry out an investigation, right, you find out some of the people who who are the What is kid goods? Or these investigation? You’ll find out some of them, they are they might want to justify what you have done, right? I want to justify it around the fact that, oh, somebody somewhere did something or somebody I’ve done something, I just landed on my table. And I didn’t have a choice. That’s something you hear consistently. If you’re working in this field you, you hear an accountant or if I don’t shall control I say Oh it was the it was a CFO. That did something. I mean he did something he got. Now, whatever is here for did might not have been Frodo. we might not say, Oh, when he got my table, I know how to handle it because if I if I do it this way, This is the results. So I decided to do this week. so that, you know, Should I can save my head so you hear a whole lot of justification here and there, but again, before the law, all of these things, you know, count right? And then there’s some people who intentionally make statements to deceive to disease people. You know, you can have like, the case of WorldCom where the lawyers were intentionally falsifying this accounting records. Just because we wanted to mislead investors. They wanted investors to think that their companies doing well is performing wonderfully financially. So they will bring all their billions and millions of dollars to command invest inside inside inside a company. Right. So I mean, these are just some common forms of fraud. Somebody types of Florida procurement fraud, there is financial statement for there’s something you call. social engineering as well. You know, where someone is trying to is trying to He’s trying to convince you. True true. All sorts of social means it can be true emails. It can be true text messages. It can be true. What they call they can be true Facebook, you know? always put our creates all sorts of Weird. Facebook accounts, just because they are trying to mislead somebody or they’re trying to mislead you. So, these are all the different ways. That I can be socially engineered. There are also there are there are so many, I mean the ecfe to to date. I think they’re about 100 something more here four Different classes of fraud, that’s the whole lot, right? So, perhaps you have the time you can, you can go, you can go on Google Type, Certified Fraud Examiner lists, of fraud or classification of fraud and you can get a full breakdown of all sorts of Florida. I whole lot and the least continues to get updated every single year. All right, can you can can everyone see my screen? The front triangle. Please confirm if you can see my screen yet. >> Young Finance Leaders: We can see the understanding. Fraud, but let us wait. I think you. Let’s talk mail is login. To example, you just >> Praise Jonathan: All right. Alright. Alright, please let me know astronauts up. >> Young Finance Leaders: Still not. Yes, up now. >> Praise Jonathan: It’s open. Alright. Alright, thank you. All right, so we’ll be looking at the fraud triangle. The fraction I go was developed by Emmanuel’s do now Chrissy. I mean, by the time by the time you listen to all, I’m well, I’m gonna explain you realize that this is common sense. like like when my partners will see, most of most of the theories that read about right from time, except the ones that are scientific. Anyways, most of the ever, most of the rat theories. We really sociology, it’s psychology, be philosophy. Most of them are still common sense right now he developed this triangle to say Oh, before fruit can occur. There are three things that could happen. Yeah. Well, there are three things that must have happened, right? Somebody must have been going through some sort of pressure. And then, because there is precious. Then an opportunity, my present itself. and then after that, the person will commit after will commit the further and after committing the fraud, the person will begin to rationalize the fraud. So begin to justify the fraud. So now let’s start with pressure. When we see precious pressure might mean that. You know what you have, or you have your grandmother, who is who is, who has been going to dialysis? You know, every month. And you have exhausted all your savings. You know, on heart. Pressure could be that you are looking to jackpot. All of you are an engineers. don’t go and don’t. Don’t wanna steal to Jack bow and begging anymore. God but will catch you. When we got you, you go to you, go to Ricky, you have actually for 20 years, so, as I was saying, So, yeah, all sorts of precious, right? Also. Pressure could also be that you have not been promoted in the company for up to five six years. Are you at this grown to get frustrated and you feel like the way to take it out on the company? Is for you to be stealing money, you know, to be stealing things Emma. I mean it might not be funds, It can be assets, That’s why I said Mrs. Operation on Benjamin’s is a type of fraud. It can be that you are working in the warehouse And from time to time, you are taking one. One soup or one cartoon of these kids, you know, things like that. And why? All because you feel like the company is not compensating you enough, you know? Pressure could be that prior could be, it could be, it could be coming from your boss at the top who is telling you Oh do this. If you don’t do this, I’ll make sure you lose your job. Right? What you are your boss, my time. We catch you, guys. It’s all of you. Go to prison. As a truth or you lose your job. So yeah, all sorts of treasure. Now when you’re going through all of this precious, right, and there’s an opportunity, Again opportunity usually comes from poor, internal controls. So we have we have companies who have different. I mean all companies have different ways of doing things, right? And that is why some of them or most of them, whenever the employer Internet audit team, they they try as much as possible to also employ an internal control person. Because the one that internal control person to be, also, always be accessing the controls. The processes to ensure that there are no look who’s for fraud to ensure that anybody wants to come in fraud. It becomes very difficult is very, very difficult. They might have so many things such as segregation of duties. they can have things around cuz, oh, for those of you who are, who are in the financial space, you know, what I mean by cause of, so they can have things around, we should blowing policies, you know, just to ensure that is very difficult, they might put systemic camera everywhere and besides the ones they put everywhere, they might also put some hidden ones. The web that people are not even aware of. So you might you might think that you’re in a blind spot. You escape the camera, anonymity. That is and that camera somewhere watching you and it’s healing because nobody knows where it is. You know, these are some of these are some of the the you know, some controls our internal control, press my buddy leaders because opportunities arise when you’re actually, when there are four internal controls. Now this person who has a great a mother who is seek and you know, he he’s he’s spending millions every month. you know has committed a fraud now he’s trying to rationalize it, he’s trying to justify when you’re meeting man, you catching, you’re telling you he breaks down for you, You know, I mean, I’ve seen cases like that right there was a lady who was even crying in my presence. I mean, in praise of myself, my money job back then. That would you please that we shouldn’t that, we shouldn’t hold her life was distinct up. This is this is reason I mean I wouldn’t want to make sure anything this is a lot. was she’s divorced and you know she’s trying to raise her kids. By herself money is not coming in, you know, all of those things. So people try to justify rationalize things to say, Oh this is why I’m in the front so do not Crisis. Said, Every fraud case has one of these three things, precious opportunity and rationality rational, however, I want to tell you before free, But there are four cases that do not have. Precious. Yeah, people who are. Who are hardcore? Had when I see hardcore, this people are really looking to commit fraud. That’s their goal the same way you your English to catch thief them. Every day and the company what they’re looking for is, how am I going to steal? They don’t have pressure. they don’t have precious at all, they’re looking for ways to steal that is our goal. Right. So we have, we have, we have to like that. So that’s why we say fruit can occur as one of two things. It’s either out of need out of greed. And that is that is that is the simplest way to summarize. It’s fraud or cause out of need or greet. Yeah. People who are coming for out of need true pressure. And they are those who committed out of breed, however, all of them are the same boat. I’m not saying they are different. I’m not saying you should treat them different. Oh, by the time you find out how somebody coming there for because his Father or seek auditionable. Oh, I’m so sorry. Sorry. I don’t worry. I know hold you even. You do. They will send you to prison. You are safe. Like you’re trying to to understand show some party wear party, you yourself. You go to prison. Right, so what I’m not this this is not me saying you should treat them differently, you should still treat them the same way. Right. But however, So those are the two ways is that I need or greet one or the other and for us to stop all of these things. Number one, Your internal control just have to be top notch and you need to keep accessing risk. There’s something called I’m Fraud Risk Management for Risk. I’m Fraud Risk Assessment, right? It’s one of the things that internal controls must do consistently. Every I think for Eastern eye, practice for them to do it every six months. So half yearly. You must access risk. And they know what after identity, you must access identify the risk. And they try to mitigate the risk. So that’s something you must do every single time. So again, the front triangle, this is how this is usually how for the course. However, again we said that there are what your are those who come in front of greed, There is no pressure at all. They just coming from because they love committing fraud. And sorry to say this, there are some some loyal, some law enforcement. So, learn some law enforcement guys. That went black. In West Africa, I’ve known I will not mention. I will not mention the Ani. Um yeah, they are known for. They are known for the grid, not for the, not for the need part of things. And God will help them. Okay. So, we’re going next. let’s look at a fraud examination process. I I don’t know. I believe most of you. Okay. Can everyone see my screen or should I should I Okay. >> Young Finance Leaders: Order. Because he seen the four triangle. >> Praise Jonathan: Alright. Alright I’ll just I’ll just hold a limit. So, it’s up. Perhaps I should on share and share again. So, let’s see. Okay, let me share this again. Just let me know as soon as it’s all. >> Young Finance Leaders: It’s up. But you see the foot triangle? >> Praise Jonathan: Right. So how about now? >> Young Finance Leaders: Yes, No score. No. >> Praise Jonathan: All right, all right, so I’ll just I’ll take us to the front exam process. I know, for some of you I know when you hit, when you hear that, we’re gonna do forensic accounting, or for examination. You probably thought I was going to come and show you debit and debit and credit, Abby. I’m gonna show you how to support fraudine financial transactions, or in in statements. however, the reason why the reason why I would not be doing that is because when it comes to financial accounting photo financial statement fraud, Once you don’t want you understand how debit card credit works. Once you understand your double entry are. You understand the accounts we’re doing double entries, should be going into it’s easy for you to function at the forensic accountants. All you have to do is to trace a transaction back in in order to call it Audit Trail. Right? All you take this way to follow and audit trail, but not just to get to the end of the transaction, but to see the object of that transaction. To see the object. So I mean every transaction usually most traditions have an object, right. So, capital has an object. The object might be the loan, the loan? Um, the loan from the bank. unexpensed can be purchase of a vehicle, you know, the object can be the vehicle itself. And as if, as if present, you want to go, as far as you want, seeing the vendor who sold the vehicle. To be sure that the vehicle is not even is not even something shady that, maybe the owner, Instagram went to go and bring from his garage. I went to Groundbrew from his friend to say, Oh, please give me this vehicle. Let me just let me just hold on to it for the next one year. And then in my financial statements, I’ll put it there. I see I purchase the vehicle for two point. Something million. For me while that money has gone to his account, all he has, he has to liberated with with whichever vehicle vendor that is And, you know, he has he has given that one money. Now, when I send any money to him anyways and he has, what’s going for one car or bro, his friends car and praise in the company, you know, for everybody to be using. And when you come as an auditor to say, Oh, where’s the car, you bought, it will show you the car. When you ask where to receipts, you will show you to receipt as well. When you ask, Where is the vendor? It gives you don’t know. He will show you the vendor That’s a person he paid to and then you have nothing else to hold him against because as an auditor you’re trying to confirm accuracy and that’s all That’s all you after. We’re not knowing that on that particular transaction, a fraud has been committed. The guy has diverted companies forced to his own pocket and you’re going to go and bring an object out of some way and put it there for you as an auditor. Right? And I went everything comes to light you not be like Oh okay so that’s what happened. so that is where that’s a different between a forensic person and and and and Again, so when it comes to financial statement floor, it is very easy. Right, it’s very easy. There is no special formula. There’s no. All we are looking at this Tracey transaction back. Try to track transactions back, right? You could do that. Where an auditor is looking at sampling as a forensic account that? Yeah, we are almost looking at every transaction. Almost everything right. There was an investigation. We did back then on PWC, We’re the physical value of inventory of the inventory of one of these change stores. Food, change stores in Nigeria. They had a difference of 200 millionaire. At the end of the year. So they did stock count for the year and you have to want to, I’m 200 million Naira was of stock physical. However, what was showing in their book in their inventory? Record was 400 million to the studio is the difference of 200 million. Right. And then they had they had asked the audit, guys, Please come and help us to check this thing. We don’t know where the problem is going, is a very premium is coming from. They check check. Check check. They could not find where they were whatever it was coming from, so they had to consult us back, then to come and help them with that particular and engagement. Well, I went in. What do we do? We asked for the for all of the transactions that were recorded from January. Like this was a full year transaction from China. Why up to the same about? We have to track each. So Mean, whenever whenever they purchase any item, there’s a purchase order. There’s an invoice and then there’s a receipt. But we now have to track every single put from the beginning from purchase. We will be able to tracking usage. So, by doing that, we will be able to come up with our own financial record for the whole year. This is not this, this is not child’s play. Oh, this is not something that will take you. I’ll take you one week. One to do. These are engagement that took us like four, five months to do. Because we have to look at every single item of inventory from the beginning of the year to the a full years data. Of invoices, upon invoices purchase orders. I will be like, ok, I think we were still seven back then but we had to get some some people from what that seems and interns in the company. We just have to get them to join us. It was a whole lot. This was a five months engagement and I’m by the time we’re able to do that. We’re able to account, we will be able to see where you was coming from Apparently, the gas supply chain accountant, who are responsible for entry into a traditions, into the system had been making mistakes over and over and over again. Now, the mistakes that he was making a small mistakes so you see 10,000 difference here? 20,000 maybe. Wait, what was right one time? In my right. One mistake Healy. Alright one one like one one day. Who they gonna put zero at the end? Now in his mind he would think he has typed here, stab me wanted I started one one thousand. You know, so and by the time we we saw all those differences over that one year span. We saw where the difference of it was water and 90 it’s million. Something was coming from Able to show them to say Ah this is where these differences coming from. Right? So there is no special. There is no special, and formula for you to try And to say, Oh, when you look at, I am at the financial statement just by looking at it, you can tell that yes, fraud, eh There’s no magic like that. Where somebody or or dangote just releases the, a financial statement enjoy look at it and like, oh, I feel like this is why this apartment in front somewhere, and, no, it doesn’t it doesn’t work that way, right? So if you, if however, if you, if you didn’t want to probe the statement you can then go into the company or I mean anyways you I mean most companies right now, that consulting on that kind of issue. So when auditors to get audits, they want different. That’s also come and check now by the time, yeah, coming in for coming like dangote, you know, you cannot, you cannot do everything that in that instance. So you can’t pick a sample. Of transactions and try and test them, investigate them to the court to the latter, and then give a forensic report of the financial statement of that particular company. Although is for now is not, it is not yet common They’re just a few companies and the companies who do that because they are skeptical of the eye of the Internet audit team. But if you like the entire auditing team, does not have the experts You know, so they just want somebody else to just come and check. So, the front examination process starts with detection. Right, detection, can be a tip, it can be a red flag, it can be a complaint for example, one of the things that you can see when it comes to that, I can show you. That fraud is going on, is when you walk into a company and then you see all the invoices are most of them, they’re all around figures. Yeah, mostly around figures. So you’re seeing where you’re at 10,000. You’re saying 20,000 30,000, 40,000, 1 million, I’m sorry thousand a 400,000. What are the odds? That a company purchasing things over one year span. Who have 90% of his transactions around figures. I mean, is the endowment search thing as VAT. Which holding tax. On these things. I mean Oh I’m what do I know which holding comes or revenue, but then You might think about it, it is, it is very rare, it’s very rare for you to have the company that has around figures in almost all of the invoices. That should be reflect that. Okay. Something could be going on. Right. For those of you have used the, well, he’s learning account in, this is more of a fraud for law. I forgotten who developed the law, so you can’t test all the numbers on an invoice. i, I hope we only got every invoice has has an invoice number or receipts also have it. You, you should also have receive. No math, right? You can’t test all the receipt numbers or invoice number. So check. To check how often? Each number is occurring. Now, there’s a front loader states in every randomly occurring numbers random when I say random random, I invoice numbers. Because yeah, because the, I generated at random nobody sit down, then starting, well, the number in quarter, right? Yes. But that’s the same way, so they use the law of natural numbers naturally. Occurring numbers from one to whatever it is to test our law and they said for every randomly or natural numbers one, What number one was appeared the most. So if I have invoices, I mean voice numbers that are one 1000, whatever device is, you have two zero seven, seven you have one something again you have to the you have seven. You have seven, you have seven. So you have numbers that starts with 7, seems like is the most occurring one. It means that you your first instinct should be that some of those invoice Numbers have been, what they have been created, they don’t exist. They don’t exist. And this law I’m telling you you can as well test it for any natural. I’m not saying numbers that you you sit down for me. I’m saying go to go to a place like, um, sit down. Yes. Sit down in a day account, every single person that like for a whole week. Right. There’s a way there’s a way I’m trying to put it now, there’s a way we tested that low and I’m trying to see how you can test it in Nigerian set. Um, okay, okay. You know what, everyone just walking to any if you’re working in a corporate world or program or whatever it is asked for an invoice or receipt get all the numbers of receipts, on numbers of the invoice is write them down. We can impute them in a system and test the law to see which number starts each of them the most. And you see that one is usually the first one appears like one appears the most one starts each of them the most, right? Another way for Red flag is a whistleblowing. I’m allegations. Somebody can do it. We should say. Oh, so this one. So things happened and blah blah, please come and help us you then go and then you didn’t have to plan as well, you know, planning means defining the scope what you want to investigate. gathering background. You don’t need to do. What guardian background. One of the ways you to get up background is to do process interviews. Again, you cannot carry out an investigation in finance department. If you don’t know what the finance process is, All right, you cannot carry out investigation in a procurement department. If you don’t know what the procurement process is. You can’t investigate a HR department. If you don’t know what the HR processes are, Right. So this is what we call Catherine Background. You can also get policy documents that that companies I keep policy document. They have you in policy you have been policy. They have procurement policy, they have audit policy. So you can get those policies. That is how you gather background, right? And then you access risk, very key accessories. So, if your life is a stick, a big, I use, God beg. You don’t want to be investigation. If not, they can’t kill you. As already can cut your head. And nobody will know you nobody even see you, please don’t go. So that’s part of assessing risk. You want to know if and then I mean and that risk is also if the person who you’re going to invest, it is a politically exposed person. Right? When you’re working in a place like the Big Four or any other thing you might be called to be to command investigate, a public, precious daughter or a public corporation. You might want to access the risk of you guys conducting time investigation. That’s why in PWC we have processes. I will call them risk research. So for every client or for every job, we get, we need to do a risk research. Success the risk, but are the pros on the cons? Do we do it and we go ahead with it. Is it worth it is the pay worth it. They want to go and kill ourselves for. somebody. I want to pay off two million or 90 millionaire and then one, and then we are going there. And then we know that whoever it is hostile or they have killed the Internet audit team there before the two day member of the audit team. What? If kidnap somebody before? You know, those are some of the risks that you want to check. Now, after you define the scope, The scope can be. Oh we are going well. The scope, I’m a scope is to find out who is committing the procurement fraud and how, I’m how do we do that Everybody implementing is going to be involved. We need to get access to their financial statements, sorry to get our bank statements mean I’m going to get access to all of the inventory, records, you know, and things like that. So that’s what it means to define scope. Now, we don’t go to evidence collection so you need to get evidence. Now evidence can be digital evidence, can be, it can be physical, right? You can have a witness that is a physical evidence, you and the communicator. It can be informal videos. It can be. Informed of I’m written document. It can be PDF And you want to again, understand the Nigerian Evidence Act. For you to be able to do this. I mean, I want all the things that you learn very quickly is that you cannot record when you record somebody without the person’s consent. The judge will almost. They will treat the way in court, you can’t do that, so person seeing the team Actually, nobody. I mean yeah. Nobody Right? Although there are still loopholes in the in the courts around it, right? But however, is advising would have before you record, somebody especially audio recordings live video alone. Now audio recordings, you need to get a precious concerned. and that’s one of the reasons why in some of the videos or movies you’ve seen you notice that whenever the policeman was in, once in a reason why you all a lawyer they always say, sticks your name for the camera. Right? And then they also ask you, Do you consent to be recorded. So you need to say it on the recording that you consent to recording. Also, being recorded. Um, and then there’s something called chain of custody. Our lawyer here would definitely understand this. So chain of custody says, he just shows the sequence. So from one from, when you got it, who did you share it with? Right? You need to maintain a chain of custody documents to show that. Oh, this, this document has not been tampered with. There are certain things that we call exhibits in court. Exhibits are things that you know, I mean you got them directly from the crime scene. So you have not done anything with them. Nobody has had any tampering. You have not broken needs or, you know, how to shed it. Alright, something on it. No, so an exhibit is something that you’ve got directly True investigation. And you did not tamper with it. on the other hand and when you are what you call on an appendix, Is something that you yourself had to define. You yourself, have to, you have to come up with it. For example, we are trying to draw a road map. To how 200 million and ended up in somebody’s account. I am I now drop the chat. in that chart, you are showing that all in January, this person had this person removed to 20,000 first in on January 16th. January 17th, did I’m Dispension removed, 5000. I’m generally 22. I’m especially musso, you know, you come, you know, came up with a chart, a very beautiful chat. Now who you say right time you look that you were very, very impression. My car I’m on, I’m on FBI, a dispersed. Um, at this point, you know, and you now want go on impress, the judge. Oh yes, impress, the George, with all of, which, all of those things that’s called an appendix is not. It’s not because of what you were, the one who came up with that, right? So that was not require action of custody. However, a chain of course studies required for anything. Any right evidence that was physically cotton through investigation that you did not have any impute to it. We did not have any impute at all. For example, they gave you have been card. They give you a financial statements, all those things are exhibits. They give you their their stock ledger. Exhibit. You, you did not, you were not the one that created this. You didn’t have any imputes in it. So it’s an exhibit. Now, we have interviews interviews again. Start with witnesses and then suspects as well, right? So you need to and again one of the things that you learn quickly as an investigator or referencing accountant, is that you need to build relationship with the people that you’re trying to investigate. For example, if you feel like if you’re suspecting that whoever it is estimating, the fraud is Mr. Cooling You wouldn’t you you need to report Mr. Cleanly, if you get what I mean, so you can get what you’re looking for. Right? So that if you ask him, oh, I need successful reports. You don’t have any issues. You send it to you. you know, because we’ve seen, we’ve seen so many people who refuse to corporate in an user and that kind really, really frustrate You can frustrates you that you are investigating. Now, um you then you didn’t have to get to reporting, reporting is very critical. Right very, very critical. You report, a clear and concise man. In fact, if you know the day oh you know how to do is to report you have covered like, 50% or being an investigator. If you know how to report. Now reports are very systematic. So you need to tell your story, clearly very, very clearly such that you can convince again, like I said, as I forensic person your own goal is you to stand before a court. so, imagine you go before a court and you’re talking and Andy Georgie just there looking at you like What is this? Why is this my scene? What are you see? Andy and I did not start bombarding. You questions because they don’t understand the story you’re telling, Right? So you need to prepare a report that can that can stand the test of time That is why you have, there is a branch of or Friday commission code experts and this part witnesses, you someone who can come up here before a court and give account. Of his findings. I mean, I know we’ve, I know that most of you have seen people who are, who are like that, maybe they have to call a, you know, a doctor to come on, be our next part witness in court. If I should not you, as a forensic person, you need to be an expert witness. That’s one of those that should be one of your should be one of your call. learnings in the field. You need to know how to report. Now reporting can be on paper, it can be spoken as well, so you know, how to do both of them. And then in dream of them, you have covered 50 percent. You see the rest, you can do all the work, you see? All the rest that I give you fraud detection, you plan, you collect evidence doing that everything if you cannot report it, I’m sure you. You haven’t done anything. If I eat to be a resume before before the courts or before your manager, or before your partner, who is this or before your client, That you do not know how to do the work. In fact, they might even see that you don’t even know the work. That’s how bad it is. So reporting is very very critical out of out. I’ve showed you guys more reports here but the cost of time. Oh no, believe don’t be able to share that. We just have, I think two more, Okay, you know what? Let’s keep this ice breaker. We have just 10 minutes so we can go to question and answers. >> Young Finance Leaders: Is not up yet. >> Praise Jonathan: Okay, I’ll just I’ll just wait until it’s up. >> Young Finance Leaders: Please reach on my I told us to be very mindful of our microphones. I’m going to review if I see your mic is on. Thank you. So Em. >> Praise Jonathan: He’s right. Yes, yes. >> Young Finance Leaders: good Ok. >> Praise Jonathan: No, no, I don’t drink. Why not in the ice? The icebreak. I wouldn’t have that last >> Young Finance Leaders: You okay? >> Praise Jonathan: Alright. So tools and techniques as he first accountant and an investigator. I’ll just Abigail Bridge to them. So number one you need to know how to use Excel. I’m not just seeing Microsoft Excel. I mean every single Microsoft word to all Microsoft, to all you, I found Please know how to use the docs. Google Docs Google sheets, Um yes just know how to use all of those things. It’s been very crucial when it to reporting Excel for analysis. Right? And if your own is power, bi all your ad, you already a digital is or a detailey. So, your own, if I very big goals, very, very big goals. It’s one of these skills that you will need as a francisca content because somebody can give you large data. He very large data sets of the whole year, like, I’ve told you or some months in fact. So if you see, if you see the financial, they might be the management account of some companies for just a month alone. You’re you’re already having about about 3,7000. In fact, they have some twenty Now, you need to analyze. So you can’t very key for you to know how to analyze data. And I’m somebody tools, we use a case where Caseware idea. Okay, so idea is a software, we used to analyze data that can go as high as 10 million rows, 15 million Ruth, 20 million Ruth, It’s one of those tools that we use apart from Python. You can also use Python if you already, did I am analys you can use them are as well because probably I has it’s only limitations there is ACL or this command language as well. I can also use forward for data analysis. But hey, yes, the law I told you about where number one was appear. Most often it’s called, Benford’s Law. For number distribution, you can you can Google it. As your own, I’m at your own time and then you can test it as well. Just to find out. It’s also true. Yeah benfos law for nobody distribution, He came up with it and he came in, he became one of the top, the top tools, you know, inferencing investigations. You need to know what Ben Folds law is all about right apart from one, you know, also, see the breakdown for all the Iran numbers from one to zero, how often they should call in natural data set or in naturally occurring number distribution. So you don’t know how to examine leaders again invoices emails. Hey I again These are skills, like I’ve told you these are skills that We practice. You can learn, right? So there is no special. What do they call again? No, special. And Trick to investigation. You just you need to learn you, you need to be somebody who pays attention to detail. It’s body. Who is, who, who is willing to do the Right, because one thing we’ve seen, there was a was someone who came into a company. last month. Yes. And then just just, because we had a job to do and then she saw the volume of emails that we had to review. You know, we were trying to investigate it, I mean, case, thank you so full of emails, about how to review they were sent as a text txt documents, you know, in fact, I mean, I mean, how to resign after two weeks, She couldn’t handle it, right? So it’s a it’s it really reggae. It’s a it’s a rigorous process. It’s not, it’s not for the faint hearted. Every every case is different, you can spend from as long as a week. In some cases a week is enough for you to finish the whole case and some other cases they can take as high as high as I have two months, three months, four months, five months, and relax voice. Just finish one case. So that’s how bad it says. So, You also need to know how to interview very key. You need to know how to structure your interviews. If you’re trying to get processes. And if you’re trying to, you know, get you but you start for fixing the key as well. You need to know how to image a laptop. You need to know how to immediate if a phone you need to know how to how to image a hard drive. I hope, I hope most of you when there’s nothing and deleted from your laptop that we can to cover. He digital forensic person can recover anything from a lot of anything. Absolutely, there’s nothing so what you? Believe them and I just right. It says you cannot hide. To precious and fight you. And stuff. Yes, go ahead. >> Young Finance Leaders: Chris. Okay. I >> Praise Jonathan: yes, what >> Young Finance Leaders: I think your Brickman you’re breaking. I don’t know if he’s really me Bo. >> Praise Jonathan: Okay. Okay. How about now? >> Young Finance Leaders: but, Yes, I think we had part of where he said, there’s nothing that’s been that can be different for another that can’t be found that I >> Praise Jonathan: Okay, okay, yes, all right. All right, there’s something. Okay, there is nothing to deter from your laptop, from your phone. So there is there is Dick. There is a mobile digital forensics. So this apple who specialize in these are forensics on mobile phones. There is a PC computer, for instance. Yeah, in fact, every every cyber security person, and more or less functionality space, Every cyber security, personnel, and more or less be a distafferance expressing. However. There are some things that you can, these are things that you can learn, right? How to mirror, I’m how to image a system, how to image, a hard drive, how to image your phone. There are things that you can learn if your first person you don’t, You don’t need a server. You I’m, you don’t need Severus, could you train to learn how to do that gas skills that are learnable? You can lend them, understand them and I’ll be it. And then, you know, you need to know how to do surveillance as well. So reliance can involve it. You might need to be outside of your house or outside of your comfort zone for as much as our two hours, three hours Sometimes it day, two days Trying to. So you I mean, I know we all know what’s surveillance is you’re trying to stick out. You’re trying to watch somebody. You know, see the person’s movement. see where the person is doing, you know, just because just so, because, you know, that if you catch a person read I’m right-handed is going to add To your to your, to the evidence for your case. Do you guys get where I’m coming from? So that’s so that’s what is near. So these are just some of these skills, right? However, all in all it’s it’s a deep die. Like I’ll say it’s not, there’s no one size fits. All you need to know how to do everything. Right because I’m starting cases will require certain skills. Samurai cases will require some other skills. So the more, you know, the better, that’s the way it is as a forensic accountant and it for examiner. So it’s not enough for you to just know debit and credit. I think I should stress that. So if you’re an accountant, I want to go into French accounting. It’s not enough for us. No debit and create is it’s you need to know how to how to go deeper on that. You need to know how to test transactions. You need to know how to how to, how to deal with large volume of data. That’s why I said, being a data analyst or you learning how to analyze data becomes very key. If you want to be forensic, accountant, you know, how to how to, how to review invoices, you can review, you can have thousand five thousand, seven ten times twenty thousand English review, you know, how to review emails, you know you, you know how to how to do this stuff forensics. So all these are key. So these are some of the career prospects, you know, in the field you can be an Internet auditor and I think that one, that won’t be like the easiest one. Okay. >> Young Finance Leaders: Yes. Yes. You >> Praise Jonathan: All right. I’m just gonna hold on. Yes, yes. Let me just give me free for the screen to come up. Go ahead. >> Young Finance Leaders: Since that’s less like you want to just let me share, so just good. >> Praise Jonathan: All right, all right, all right, all right. Let me just for sure. And now be good. The. King. There are selectness. Let me know when you can see the screen. It’s good, right? >> Young Finance Leaders: Yes, it’s up. >> Praise Jonathan: Alright. Alright. So um To some of the career parts. As a forensic accountant is that young Internet auditor? I mean, you cannot be forensic account down without being an accountant. I believe, I believe that most of us know you can’t be if an accountant. So even an accountant. It can be for instance, however, if you are not an accountant, you can be in for examiner. Right? You can you can be for eczema. Yeah. If for the Examiner and they actually learn accounting. That would then help you to also be forensic. Accountant. So those are those Those are, those are some of the ways that you can even try to branch into the field, you can be a litigation support person for a for a law firm, your law firms in Nigeria the employee, you know, forensic, accountants or for examiners because you’ll be the one giving them support when someone to help me to help them investigate to get evidence had evidence that it can present in court. you’ll be depressing that they will most likely call as a forensic accountant or for examiner and the pay is high. You I’ll be very very honest because because it’s a it’s a field that is relatively new new in the sense of indicate to the kids, they’re about And we still do not have enough practitioners in the field. I’m very honest, we still do not have enough practitioners, they are still people. So again it’s it’s a high paying role. Um, you can get a risk analyst. Of course, because because you’re somebody who is looking for fraud. You can test you are in. You are any, you are the best position to test and entire process or all the processes that a company has for fraud. You’re the one in the best position. You can do this stuff. Forensics. Experts ahead. That is, that’s why I said that is like, that is a few that if you choose to give your exact person Who is interested in fraud? You can’t go into digital forensics separately on its own. in fact, just on universities who offer that particular course on its own, so, you’ll be trained in everything, digital evidence gathering, whether it’s PC where there is laptop without phone, whether it’s hard drive, would I suffer You know how to get evidence from any electric device? That’s if you’re in school. So some of the specifications that you need As a as he for examiner is, I’m cfe stratified for the Examin a cfe. I know most of you, if you don’t really research in this field, you would have seen that in them around LinkedIn. You know, there’s somebody who said Oh you see if you see if you see if he’s chatter financial advisor, Cfe is satisfied, fraud examiner. That’s a global recognition for any. So when you have this that’s that I’m this These education. You can practically work anywhere in the world so it’s a global fraud certification. And for now it’s going for around 1.6, 1.6, 1.7 million Because of the dollar to naira exchange rate, it used to be cheaper USB, I think 900 or about now. It’s it’s a yeah you have to you have to sweat your sweat, your hands off to get it. The Recipie there is mcia. I’m CPA certified public accountants, but that’s for those in the US I’m CIA is chartered internal auditor now one of the things this education will give you CIA is that they will train you to not just me and auditor although besides says Chat that internal or satisfied, internal auditor your training will include forensic accounting To be looking to know how to find Florida to look for fraud in a company. And there’s something called sisa. Chartered information systems auditor. Right? You can see that most of most of these education, they have audits audits in them. It’s not because it’s not because, for instance, accounting anointing at the same thing. What is because inside those audit certifications, this particular ones, the CIA and sister inside those education. You also have what forensic accounting inside it. That’s why we have added them here because they will train you to be for risk accountant. So it’s one of the things that you would learn if you decide to pursue those certifications, right? Some of these skills that you need again. You need to, you need to be an immigrants have an investigative mindset. So always doubts everything you hear. And that’s very key. Good and there’s something called professional skepticism. Doubt everything you hear, once you able to verify. So if somebody tells you, oh, this is the process that would do in the company where we buy, these emo from me, it goes to the cashier from the cash out of this person. I mean, you can write it down beautiful but then you also want to see it in practice. Right. Is, when you see it in practice like and then hold on to you to say, Okay, yes, this process holds true. So you need to have an investigative mindset at the same time. You also need to learn how to think, critically. Again, like like I said, some cases you can’t be on them for two months, three months, and there’s no Edwin. You’ve not even found anything yet. You don’t be able to find anything you. In fact, there is no clear direction on to who is who, or what is, what? Right, so he can be frustrating. So however we are somebody who is a critical thinker Already. You keep trying to try to find who it is. The person that could be All right, so you also need to know accounting, and then you need to have legal knowledge. I think I’ve stressed all of these before. so, That’ll be all. now, but all from me, I would I would then take questions from here. While I stop sharing my video? Yes. >> Young Finance Leaders: Thank you very much with the praise for this. Amazing amazing. Session. Okay. Before we take a question, please, if you do have any questions, you can just type them on Chat box. It will be read out for it’s a praise or you can raise your hands to speak. And then also, Was like, 93 94 and it’s people. So if you are currently on YouTube you want to be sure that you actually attended class on YouTube and you can’t hear me now. Type your name and your email on the YouTube. Comments. Section between now and 640. If you can hear me on YouTube, Thank you name and your email on the comments section between now and 640. I’ve four minutes to do that. You can hear me. Okay. So we have some people with India and even my Oga. So the founder of WiFi, just a reason. And so I think you should go first. I testimony >> Testimony Elendu: Angola. Don’t worry. Other people should go. >> Young Finance Leaders: Okay. Okay. Then blessing Adekoya. Can you? >> Blessing Adekoya: Okay, my son to ask now. He said that in practice and this exam Enfield right People are actually feeling this field so is it like I mean, like Subsidied in amount or like scholarship, like scholarship programs for the certificates, like maybe someone else have resources to four times forensic accounting? So is it scholarship programs for this course for the courses? >> Praise Jonathan: All right. Thank you very much. You for now to the best of my knowledge again News scholarship certifications are available however on the certified fraud Examiner body, right? If you go to their website, you’ll see that they there’s a discount for the exam. if you register with them within the particular time period, So there is nobody that’s giving scholarship to better manage. However, some I think there is this learning platform, I’m trying to remember their name. So what they do is they allow you to pay install mentally for the exam, but in the end you was to end up paying the full the full amount, right? But you’re allowed to pay for it lead to until the money is complete. And then you can then write the exam, You can ask it for the exam so it’s not really scholarship. However, if you’re thinking of Oh, when can I start saving up for the money you can’t you can you can just stop being with them and then when you’re ready they will just do them. You would sit for the exam but there isn’t there’s really no scholarship. I think that’s the message scholarship for those exams. Yeah. >> Blessing Adekoya: Thank you, sir. >> Young Finance Leaders: Okay. Is sharp adew. Me. >> Ishaaq Adewale: Okay, can you hear me now? Thank you. Okay, thank you. Our honorable facilitator, you may mention of I mean using random received number or invoice. In the course of your presentation. But I can get you. right. Please. Could you shed more light on using that receipt or invoice number to detects arrow? One second one, is that you may mention of, I mean, getting content of the person, you want to get information or recording, What? Thing that has transpired. What of these guys of observation can someone use that one? Can you hear me? >> Praise Jonathan: Yes. >> Young Finance Leaders: Oh yeah. You >> Ishaaq Adewale: Yeah. >> Praise Jonathan: Thank you very much. That’s a very you have. You have access to very wonderful questions. Alright. So I’ll stop the first one. so, >> Ishaaq Adewale: Yeah, that that would last but not belie. >> Praise Jonathan: Okay. >> Ishaaq Adewale: Ah, auditor using sampling. That. I mean you of course me will also believe in order that at times you find it difficult to get an absolute audit, no hundred percent audits. But in the forensic accounting, are you saying that we can have? All you do have hundred percent. I mean, auditing or process. Now, you are not using something and then it’s happening. Maybe you may extend the sample size. Can you get my question, sir? >> Praise Jonathan: Yes. Yes, I can. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. >> Ishaaq Adewale: Thank you. >> Praise Jonathan: All right, so I’ll start by re-explaining. Ben folds low, right? So Ben for his law states that in naturally, occurring numbers, and when I, when I say naturally occurring numbers, I mean things like invoice numbers, things like in normal distribution, for those of you that I’ve done mathematics, you know if you pick randomly or calling numbers from a data set, For example, you are observing how many cars pass your house every day? Aha, let me use that as an example. And, you know, on Monday, you were able to count about 29 cars on Tuesday, you were able to count 32 on Wednesday, you were able to count them 14. Now, what you want to do is to test Is to test the first number. On each of those. So you have on Monday 32, what’s the first number in 323? On Tuesday, you have 29. What’s the first number in 29 2 on Wednesday, you had 14, was the first number there one. Right. You want to pick all the fresh numbers of the digits? And if you check each of those first numbers, you will see that one. Is occurred most times. If you get what I mean, ishak, you will see that the number one or cause most of the time, In those natural occurring, numbers. the second between us was about, you know, these guys, when it comes to recording, yes, the Einstances where because somebody knows that you want to record you don’t want to do, no one to talk Abby. Aha, that is why there’s something called admission seeking interviews. So when you’ve got to somebody’s consent and you said Oh this is a process interview. I love to understand your process and this is that I alright, please state your name and a business. Oh, my name is this. They didn’t ask the person on the wild recording me. Still on you say, Oh, do you consent to be recorded and the person says, yes, and you didn’t go ahead to start asking your questions. Now, if you have concrete evidence, That’s why we see evidence is very, when you come to friends accounting or investigation If you have concrete evidence, I put to that person. The way the person will react even even if you choose this to this guy, it will become almost impossible when you take it to court and then they listen to that record. Now they say, Oh, why did the person stop or pause or store or start stuttering? When you presented this thing before the person, right? So admission seeking interview is a thing. And it’s a skill that you will learn eventually on the job if you eventually choose to go into going to forensicum accounts. And anyways, the third question you ask that I’m trying to recollect. Now what was your third question again? Isha You can unmute. Your third question. >> Ishaaq Adewale: Okay. I mean it may mention of, I mean using a kind of under present >> Praise Jonathan: Okay. Yes, yes. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, I remember now. So when it comes to >> Ishaaq Adewale: Only. >> Praise Jonathan: I said in auditing You do you do something right? And one of the things I mentioned when you’re planning and investigation is defining the scope, Defining This Group. Now you cannot walk into a company. I say that you want to do, for instance, accounting for the whole, for all the whole company is not possible. Right, so anybody who is, who is employing you as a forensic person, can’t say. Oh, please come on, come on. Karate forensic. Audit of my procurements department. Then you didn’t know that what you’re focusing on is strictly procurement. They can say, Oh come and do a forensic audit. Of my assets of my asset register. We learned that I need. What is the assets? They can say? Oh come on, do it for called it of my expenses. In my Perl, my PO account for the year, you don’t know your focusing strictly on the expenses, right? Nobody calls you to say Oh come and do a full skill audit accept is a federal government work like we’ve seen and like I’ve done before any place like you know you see where the government controllers, you come help us to do everything to over one of Then we have to go in and do everything. Now when you’re going to do everything, you actually doing everything, Let me shock you have to do everything in that instance, but those are rare >> Ishaaq Adewale: What? >> Praise Jonathan: cases is usually government. >> Ishaaq Adewale: Know something techniques. >> Praise Jonathan: Know what? >> Ishaaq Adewale: No, sampling techniques. >> Praise Jonathan: I know. No, they’re so so in one of and I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you why, Because, when it comes to government, Because they know that you’re going to do something. And you know, that they run away with too many with so many things, right? And that is why, most of the things that we present to government. I can I can tell you for free, they don’t present it. To Jonathan, he’s not in the public, the one that he present is the one that they’ve removed all our findings from Even this particular one I’m telling you about, I would did in PWC. What? Was to the Senate? Eventually what we saw was the redacted version A different version completely. So, they had removed so many things from what we discovered And then they blended a different report to the Senate. Right? So you can have it started like that. That’s why I said we actually. So when you go in and they say, Do everything because you want your name to be preserved as as a firm, you don’t want to give them a false reports. You, you need to do everything and then when you do everything, you can take the government and decide whatever thing they want, they want to do with it. So that’s why we’ve had instances where they are presented the report to the public to say. Oh this is the result of the audit. Meanwhile. Can’t wait. When we saw that report. We knew that this was not what we did. God removed. A lot of things added. A whole lot of new things that were not even part of our plan and everything and then they gave something completely different. To descend it. so, usually we do hundred percent unless your scope again, your scope determines how far you go. If someone says procurement do procurement, It is a. I said, Do assets. Don’t, don’t want, don’t want, uber do something that will not get paid for. So that’s the way it works. >> Ishaaq Adewale: Thank you so much. Thanks. >> Praise Jonathan: All right. >> Young Finance Leaders: Have kunlee okuniyi. Yi. Elo kunle. yi, if Placement already love. Okay. You can go on. >> Omolabake Agbaje: Evening sir, thanks for the actual but I got confused in the place where you were talking about ice breakers, like Iceberg and Watson. >> Praise Jonathan: Oh em. Sorry sir. I’m sorry. Sorry about that. Yeah, eyes because I really is not part of the class, I just yeah just reduced that I put there so just to get you guys to speak. So I know that you’re listening, that’s all. That’s all there. >> Young Finance Leaders: Yes, I think I think those important time she wasn’t see your screen because of our network. So she did not I >> Praise Jonathan: oh, >> Young Finance Leaders: So, just like every reduce that would like in between his classes. Just make it’s like Ice, because it sounds really nice. It’s brick, the silence, I know. so cool, like I can actually, >> Okuniyi Kunle: Yeah, I’m yeah. >> Young Finance Leaders: but, >> Okuniyi Kunle: You believe so I am. so much functions are although I doing late but I don’t do it. I had the measure something. Like, What did you, right? Because I need to clarification and then basically I know that auditors, the challenges important, I mean like probably be doing it investigation the history of financial statement and transactions. Oh I don’t know. Probably maybe enough food which is racist accounting, probably maybe you guys follow the precious because I want to stand up, I don’t need that. So I don’t really know on guiding that maybe because I already know really I mean guys basic accounting. I don’t know you clarification, I don’t know. He’s like maybe you can follow the precious of all the things I didn’t. So that you >> Praise Jonathan: All right, thank you. Thank you so much kunlee. So um, let me let me state it here again. As a forensic accountant, this all the standard you need is the same thing. You know Ifrs. Basically, that’s it, right? So when I, when I mentioned audit trail, then I was making reference to how you track transactions. How countries them from from top to bottom, or from bottom to top, right, you mentioned auditors. Do they use materiality? I believe that’s what you were looking for. To decide what transactions to pursue and which ones not to pursue. and I clarify that in forensic accounts and because we know that you see those small numbers, there are way people obscure and because the other auditors won’t look at them. So that’s where they are more likely, they are more likely to hide. Information or not to hide Whatever productive committee do not hide it in a big numbers because not you as I told you, I’m more interested in those big numbers. Those seven million eight million. You know, 20 something million but you see all those, you see all those 500,000 200,000. You know, there was a recent fraud that I’m I think last year. The notice that a former employee of UB I wasn’t with us. You be or GT having deducting one, one error from every customers bank for about nine years straight, and counting. And I was doing that every single day. Every single day. This is not, this is not the one week. No, this is every single day for nine years before he resigned How many resigned? Yeah here designed for over five years before the even discovered this road. And there’s no way to reach the guy. Oh, God is probably going to one country and nobody that I was not. I’m does not have an MoU with So they cannot even extra diets guy back to Nigeria for any reason. So you see is all those small numbers that is weird. The fraud is usually hidden. That’s why as forensic accountants, we are not just after the big numbers, we have that, I usually after everything. And that’s the honest truth. However, even as I’ve said everything, when it comes to the real walk, nobody it is in real cases that you’ll be asked to one to carry out an audit of the entire financial statement is in very, very kisses You can have, if you call it of procurement you can have friends but it’s of some particular line items when the financial statements nobody I repeat. there’s no private company now unless they’re highly suspicious that the accountants are incompetent. There is no private company. That I’ll tell you, please come and do forensic audit on the entire thing. Or yes because deliver no, see. I’m number one video. They don’t have the money to pay you. Number two, they don’t have time to wait. Because it’s a deep that is like, it’s a deep dive. You’re not coming into common accuracy. That coming in for the soap, purpose of, I want to find who is committing fraud in this company. So you, so you can you can end up spending a longer time than even I already told using three months. To prepare his own audits reports you kind of using six months. In fact, say one year, you are still not done. So that’s why, Nope, it’s easy. It is in rare cases that I have things like that. It’s except when it’s a government because they are all trying to probe They are producers or to see how the party. How different my party did not do well, how how I’ve been trying to steal That’s when you see most of them. Most of them coming in and saying, Oh, I want different of the whole company, You know, However, our standard again is still IFRS. So once you know IFRS, you know how things should be, should be applied in accounting, it’s easy for you to know when somebody is not doing something right? Like I mentioned the case of welcome, Where they were capitalizing expenses that were supposed to be on their piano account. So they were overstating profit and overstating their assets. They are not current assets, right? So it is still the same IFRS that guides us, so that’s why you need to understand accounting to even think about being a forensic accountant in the first place. Right. I hope that answers your question. >> Okuniyi Kunle: look at I >> Young Finance Leaders: We have one. Question in the chat box and then go just. So she says, I would you recommend a pathway to Based on what she has heard. First accounting is usually for people who have the kids of experience in accounting So I really the first graduates that wants to make sure it’s accounting, okay? where would they start from how they get into that space? >> Praise Jonathan: Okay. Okay. So um so where you say it’s out, it sounds like it’s very good. I have it. I have experience that as that’s very wrong. Go Very wrong because when I started out in PwC, I was a fresh graduates. You guys, I got into PwC, 2018. Immediately after school. I was an intent for a year after that I moved into forensics fully and even in all of the Big Four firms and in some private practice, there are only a few private practices in Nigeria, right? But in some of them, you will still find them recruiting for graduate for graduate training. When you apply for this roles, usually they will not tell you where they’re gonna post you. So when you enter you can’t tell them. Oh, I have interest in forensics then they’ll move you there. You know, in places like PwC KPMG. Ey the like Deloitte do you when you when you get in. In fact, I think I’m initially, they’ll tell you to apply for consulting assurance. The likes. Even if you’re doing that, at the initial stage, I can tell you for free, when you enter, you can still change. You can. >> Young Finance Leaders: Yeah. >> Praise Jonathan: go and pursue you can still go and pursue your forensics. Another way you can do it is with your years of with your accounting degree. You can decide to pursue entry level fraud analystro. Yeah, there’s this road that’s quite that that’s quite common these days fraud, analysis. Finally, do you. You see Kuda or GTB or you know, Opie Pumpy, you know, or some of all these things. They are good analysis from time to time out sometimes. Yeah, entry level rules. So they want a junior person. Not a senior person. You can apply for those rules getting build your skills. Now usually those rules are for transaction monitoring. Which is a form of fraud. So you’re trying to I’m just output, I would call them anti-money laundering experts, You are a transaction monitoring executive. So your, your monitoring every single transaction that goes through the bank or the fintech. to ensure that anyone that raises red flag, you are able to stop it and then investigate, You know, you need to understand the Anti-money Laundering Act of Nigeria for you to be able to be able to direct. But again, there are things that I learn on the job. So it’s not really an experience. I I started out as a graduate in PWC and I’ve been able to own my skills over the years so you don’t have to wait until you actually now, you you ask, you are studying accounts in our advice, you for free. You should look for there’s this. There are some there are some courses on UDEMY. That can introduce you to forensic accounting initially. Start with those courses, right? Add them to your CV. Initially do that then you want to get certified as a as an accountant because if you don’t have the money for cfe yet, which is about 1.6 1.7 million, once you are chattered, right? Child accountant. That can be it can it can be plus for you. You can show me put our own. You understand accounting to the point of you, you should to know errors when you see them. That’s what you’re trying to communicate. So get chattered first, right? Get some knowledge of friends or forensic accounting whone your Excel skills. That’s one of the things that you ask you on the job and there is no every interview that may have interviewed somebody or I have done in the past. Yeah, there are they always ask, Oh, how good, I with excel or How could I, with excel? How do you know how to analyze data? Do you know how to identify this Can you bring our charts? Do you know how to visualize data during calm? Can you bring out a data table? You know, all of those things. So you need to own your Excel skills, hone your reporting skill, your reporting skills. You might not be 100% for now, but as soon as you get into that entry level again, Once you get into that place, pay attention to learning learning. Learn as much as you can and within I promise you, within two, three years. If If you remember to learn all you need to learn. You’ll be able to apply for top roles you can I mean, I know, I know as I last week, I still so dangote. It was recruiting chief front officer. CFO. The CF will not Chief Financial officer. Yeah, CFO financial. Now they need a chief front office that I had investigator for the whole dangote I can imagine how much that guy will be willing to pay for that kind of role. We have, we have static. I’m starting cavity that was putting for Internal Control / Investigation. Officer So it’s it should be an Internet control pressing. That is also an expert in fraud. So there are a whole lot of rules but they are not enough hands. so find that entry level rule getting learned and within two, three years you can almost have push, you know, this top rooster heading the floor department of an entire company or pasta. Yeah, thank you very much. >> Young Finance Leaders: IQ and run up with testimony. And I was just so good, that’s not easy. Found out why I feel for this? No not not testimony. I’ve testimony. >> Testimony Elendu: Yeah, thank you very much. I’m praise. Thank you for gracing this location a couple of questions. the first one is when you are looking at a young person that’s trying to get become a forensic accountant. What are the qualities? You see that you feel like this person is going to do great. At that job. That’s like the first question. And the second question What organizations? External organ. Could one potentially look forward to working as a forensic accountant. Apart from the Big Four accounting firms. then, the last question is, In your experience which areas of like an organization? Do you feel like has the most irregularities? Which phone is a function, which function essentially have. You seen has the most irregularities procurement and Um, any other area at all? >> Praise Jonathan: All right, let me, let me, let me firstly. I stand. I stand in the midst of greatness. You know, like I said, I’m just an ordinary man. So yes, this is greatness that I standing before me. Mr. Testimony You can see that he’s even fresher than he said. This is my, this is masterful. Now, now I can always do Moses. Real face, you know, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Wonderful. All right. Thank you so much, testimony. This initiative is a is a very very good one. I wish. I had such platform where while I was in school, even though what I was in school, I already knew I was, I mean I chose psychology for a reason. I wanted to be a behavioral person. He behavioral analyst? Yes. Well, I wish but back then, in secondary school, I used to be a commercial student, an accountant, so, but, and I didn’t know how to marry the two. But I chose to go after this psychology. So if I had known Perhaps I would have, I would have branch into this area. all right, so now to your question, what attributes do I see in someone who wants to be a forensic, referencing account number one, the person she was who pays attention to detail. one of the things, one of the, one of the ways I test that or I’ve seen people test that in places like Dangote is that they give you certain tests. And in this test, they are not your regular aptitude test. They are there to test your attention to detail so they can give you something they can they can show you an image or two images and tell you to spot the difference. You can have things around. Oh, where is Dangote logo in this picture? You can have something like them showing you a picture for a few seconds. And then ask you to recall where something was in that picture. you know, these are some of the ways in a place like period of, you see their shl tests would give you what problems, not your regular type of mathematics word problems, but they want to test how you’re able to think logically through the question, Get the detail you need from the question. They will feel that question with plenty jargons. I mean, why you all you need is just one thing. To just type to just say this, is it? You know, adding interviews. It’s simple. When we, when we ask them when we ask questions around. Um tell us a time when you did Susanna, what was the result was outcome, things like that. We want you to to be very specific, very intuitive. Um, and that we as well. We test attention to detail is by saying something. We can say something and ask you to Tell us what was wrong with what we said. you know, that’s another way for us to test you as well to see if you’re somebody who pays Kina attention to detail. A second skill, is somebody who is And who is analytical? You could paint this scenario for you? if fraud scenario and say, Oh how would you solve this case? And then, you didn’t have to tell us how you’re going to go step by step. You can say, Oh first of all, try to get this I will then try to find out who did this, If I find out who did this, I’ll then try to do these. So we want to see how you’re able to think through a kiss. You know how you’re able to think artically to get to a conclusion. So you have he has to be somebody who thinks who has systems thinking. Yes. that’s the best really systems thinking is what you need to be somebody who thinks fast one. I was able to think analytical trickies number three, you need to be good on your feet. When I said you already, who knows how to improvise. one of these things, I didn’t mention during the meeting was something called a, mystery shopping where you have to disguise. You may have to disguise to to do an investigation. Maybe they told you that in that there’s a place where there’s one of your clients that YouTube people. You might have to go there and these guys. Or you have to send somebody to this guy. Just to be able to get you evidence, right? And what if, when maybe you get the I I’m one of your friends sees you and I testimony my g. You didn’t have to improvise but otherwise they’ll blow your cover you don’t have to improvise maybe you’ll be like hey Yeah, Habibi, testimony, how far now among God, which I’ll do my own testimony, You know something like that just for you to what improvise however you improvise it becomes what You are able to navigate us situation. So we need to have me. Somebody who thinks on your feet. They need to be somebody who is also good with with numbers. That is also very key, right? You need somebody who is a, I mean you can accountant, I believe you’re going to numbers. However, there’s some accountants that also no good with numbers, right? But you need to be somebody who is good. You need to know your number to the latter like the latter to the core The second question you asked was about, I’m trying to remember now. I’m testimony, please, please remind me. >> Testimony Elendu: Organizations can work outside before, if you >> Praise Jonathan: Yeah. Yes, yes, beautiful, beautiful. So outside of the Big Four, I believe I mentioned some earlier, I mentioned. Um, kuda kuda recruits fraud analysts from time to time. Op recruits for the analyst, from time to time. All your, all the commercial banks in Nigeria. I know from STAMBIQUE to GTB to First Bank, they already they all have this recruitment from time to time and one of the ways they may not, call it fraud analysts, you can see something like, internal control officer. You can’t see Internal Audit Investigation team. Entry level, right? You can apply to this rules and get into the field and start when you can see Transaction Monitoring Officer as well. That’s also a fraud related field. I want you get into it. You have you have what? You have you have already started. Practicing friends. Forensics accounting. You can do something around. um investigation of Isaiah. Yes, just investigation officer. That’s also fraud you guys something around internal control executive. That is also fraud related. So there are so many ways that they can disguise the rules. But when you look at the description, Or the requirements of the road. That’s when you realize that what you’re looking for is actually somebody who can who can do fraud entry level fraud So yeah, those are guys variety. I believe they are still some of them that are still open to now I’m even I mean last time I check LinkedIn I think I still saw send it bank recruiting for internal control officer entry level. The guy so that I will LinkedIn and it’s an entry level. I want you to get into internal control, just know that you are more or less if for the person because anything that happens in, in the company, internal control would definitely have to investigate. you wish you are your practically and an investigator and when you read the description of that role, you will still see investigation there. So you see that I’m more or less afraid person? so those are and those are the rules was that is that I’m all the question or there’s still another one testimony >> Testimony Elendu: The last one is, what area of a company. Have you seen the most irregularities happening? >> Praise Jonathan: Okay, my brother inventory. Ah please you see inventory, warehouse procurement and are people that purchase or people are still inventory. Is where most of the flood happens based on my experience, right? So is that our people people are, the company is over paying a vendor or companies over paying vendors because those vendors have they have deals with. They have deals with the procurement officer. Over the manager with the MD. Whoever it is. And then we have cases where, where staff are doing assets, miss appropriation, so they are using companies assets for their own game. you have you have, you can have somebody who is a, who is a, who is in HR, didn’t companies properties. So use companies, their property for herself, and then later, you see that it has finished. Meanwhile, she’s going to give all the daughter and all the virus to all her family in the house. All your brand, all the branded items, you know, things like that. We have things around people who work in the warehouse. That’s why the inventory inventory is like the number one place, then when it comes to government for public service or public corporations, ha, God the Treasury. Is where it all goes down. You see those guys who are responsible for approving cash. for those of you who have done accounting or you don’t, public public sector accounting. Yes. You understand what? I, what I mean when I say vouchers um, for those guys who are in charge of approving vouchers, the Treasury office or Treasury Department, that’s where most of the fraud goes down and as well as procurement. Because everybody wants to chop government money. so you have people who are giving contracts to their family members, their their bypassing, the bidding process, the proper building channel, And you have contracts with somebody who is a cousin of a cousin of a cousin or cousin of a friend. You know, all of those things and you know, that’s what goes on consistently Now when it comes to financial accounts, one of the problems that we’ve seen the most is when you have incompetent people in the finance department. So I I wouldn’t say is much of a problem because Where we have competent people, we have we really haven’t seen that right? But what you have incompatible, so you have somebody who is supposed to be debiting, an account. And is crediting it. Well, the person tells you that he knows how to use QuickBooks. Meanwhile you are seeing the you are seeing the beans that they’re cooking inside the inside QuickBooks or siege. Or or we’ve you know, all of these accounting software’s. So we have technical difficulties and that’s where most of the front happens when it comes to the financial accounting department. However, the two most important ones procurements, everything inventory procurements, usage distribution supply chain. You see everything that has to do with inventory, has a problem in most companies and then in public sector you have the Treasury. So those are two major corporate any culture fraud. >> Young Finance Leaders: Thank you very much for the outside. I think that’s all from here. We don’t have any question. Also I need to grow up so can we say thank you to Mr. Praise, can we type it in the indie? In in the comments in the chat box here? Come say thank you for the time and efforts alone. It is it is a lot. It is a lot. This professionals are thank you very much the pigeon, Jonathan well, wherever communities is where we thank you for the efforts on time. Put into this petition and we do not take it for granted, yes to say. Thank you. And we hope that, as many people that I will need to go into forensic accounting and photograph mission. This is like a good. It starts to venture into that niche or finance, and yeah, so, Thank you everybody for joining. Um why I feel we can’t I’m going to send me Praise is LinkedIn. Link the profile to our Whatsapp group page. So do follow him on LinkedIn. And Yeah, I think that’s all for now. Thank you, everyone once again. See you in our next. Session next week. Bye. Thank you.