Post World War II, Dutch cities have emerged as global models for cycling as a sustainable transport mode, uniquely boosting quality of life for their citizens. How did this transformation from a car-obsessed urban ecosystem happen so dramatically? Can Dutch city systems be emulated in India? In a deep-dive conversation with Prof Ashish Verma of the Indian Institute of Science, the Dutch Consul-General for South India, Ewout de Wit tracks the remarkable cycling journey and its potential for emulation worldwide.
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[Music] Hello everyone. Um this is Prasar Rashi Shwarma from Ministry of Science Bangalore. Uh welcome to the fourth uh WSSTL podcast series um which is in runup to our upcoming world symposium on sustainable transport and livability that’s going to happen in June and uh at Indian science campus when we think of cycling um we obviously think about Netherlands uh that’s the de facto you know uh site that comes in uh our mind whether it is the landscape of dedicated bike lanes more bikes than people But uh if you look at the history uh this wasn’t the case always you know there has been a journey through which Netherlands has gone through you know postwar uh reconstruction or a rising car ownership or the civilian movement they’ve all played an important role in how the urban mobility or in general the mobility landscape has shaped in this uh country wonderful country Netherlands and other important thing that I always you know give example when I give lectures is that Netherlands is one you know uh among those very few countries which offers both a high standard of living as well as high quality of life and among the factors that have played uh towards a high quality of life uh I think cycling has been an extremely important factor in my understanding as well and of course we’ll hear from our guest so it’s my honor to you know welcome and have with us Mr. Ivat who is the council general of the kingdom of Netherlands uh who will walk us through this transformative journey of Netherlands um just to introduce our honorable guest Mr. David joined the minister of foreign affairs of the Kingdom of Netherlands in 1998 and brings with him extensive experience in economics uh economic diplomacy, development, cooperation and peace and security and since 2022 he has been serving as the council general for South India. Welcome to have you sir. So uh to begin with my first question uh would be you know this post world war era um you know uh to the best of our understanding it is significantly shaped the urban mobility landscape uh in your country. How in your opinion you think this transformation has happened post world war. Thanks uh Ashish and thank you very much for inviting me uh on the podcast. Uh as you know I’m always happy to talk a little bit about the cycling history uh in the Netherlands as well uh and have become a little bit of an expert uh on that. Um I think after World War II the Netherlands was severely damaged mostly in Rotterdam. Of course the city had been bombed in 1940 destroying the whole city center. Um but other infrastructure was also um had suffered from the war. uh the train the railways uh were in a bad state and after World War II the country really needed uh a complete makeover. Luckily uh with American assistance under the Marshall Plan uh a lot of investments were made and actually we created an economic boom quite soon after the war. Also during this period the welfare state was developed. Uh people got more money. Uh new infrastructure was being built and the infrastructure had in mind that cars like in the US would become a more important mode of transportation. So new cities were being designed with the car in mind. Uh Rotterdam was reconstructed with much broader streets. uh even though there already the shopping prominade was the first pedestrian prominade uh in the world. Um so there were some examples yet car uh ownership was increasing in the 1950s and60s and the infrastructure was also developed for that. So in some of the major cities you saw that the canals that were there, the waterways that were there were changed into multi-lane highways into the city center all accommodating car traffic. So um I’ll go to the next question. I think it’s really amazing to see how you know a solution that looks so simple uh but uh you know like cycling has played so tremendous uh role in shaping the sustainable and livable future in Netherlands. So the next question that I had for you was about this you know uh most iconic moment that has influenced the Dutch transport policy pushing it towards cycling was that uh stop the kingdom move which in you know English we say stop the child bur. What was this uh moment all about in your uh you know understanding and how it helped spark the cycling revolution in Netherlands. So in the first half of the 20th century, a bicycle was a normal mode of transportation for a lot of people in the Netherlands. As I just explained, after World War II, much more space was uh made available for cars and cars became much more important. So in the first half of the 20th century, the bicycle was a normal mode of transportation for many people in the Netherlands. After World War II, as I just explained, much more space was made available for cars and the cars became much more prominent. In the 1950s and60s, increasing incomes led to more cars also in the cities. However, at the same time, children were still on the street walking to school, cycling to school. Uh, and all these cars resulted in accidents uh whereby a lot of children got injured or lost their lives. And this resulted in this movement, stop the killing of our children or stop the murder of our children with cars. Make sure that our children can be safe uh where they live, where they go to school, where they play. Um and it was a bottomup citizens movement demanding a safer space for children in society. And this is really at the heart of the movement that uh made the Dutch cycling infrastructure but not only cycling infrastructure also pedestrian infrastructure what it is now over the past six seven decades maybe really this this this the people not accepting anymore the threat that cars pose to society and and their children specifically. Um and that resulted in a much more people centered approach in the Netherlands when designing roads, when designing streets, not only look at car traffic but take the people who have to use it uh at the core of design. Yeah. Yeah. And do you think such a moment can still resonate today in today’s context in say country like India or US? Yeah, it’s it’s always difficult to compare countries over time. Uh this was in the Netherlands in the 1960s and ‘7s that is not the same as the US. It’s not the same as India now. Um however, what I always do stress is that in the end it was a bottomup movement. It was people getting together demanding change from their political leaders saying this is not acceptable anymore. or we also deserve to have a place in this planning in this society. Uh children are not heard but they should have a voice as well. Uh and I think that’s a lesson that can be learned by by not just relying on what is being decided for you but also to come with ideas and suggestions bottom up how can we make it safer uh how can we make our streets safer for all of us all the people who use it. I I remember that time along with this uh you know child deaths there was also oil crisis and other you know factors that probably you know got together and played a role maybe some kind of those exactly uh it it coincided with the oil crisis where our political leaders said okay we have to find other ways to build our society. We had carless Sundays when you were not allowed to use your car so people cycled and walked on the highways. uh so it coincided also in a in a time frame that was more open to that maybe than the 50s and 60s uh had been. So this whole transformation from cars you know to cycling of course is you know it requires a overarching set of things to be done you know from design to planning to policy to public engagement uh but most importantly how did Netherland ensure that you know there’s a long-term vision to it and there’s a long-term plan to upkeep uh and adopt the cycling infrastructure and keep maintaining it and keep expanding it. How did this clearly happen? Yeah. Yeah. So, it’s not I mean the infrastructure was not built in one year or in 10 years. It has taken decades. It has taken decades of standardizing um road design, giving best practices, learning from each other, seeing what a certain city does, creating uh design of junctions and crossings that are safe for everybody. uh sharing that knowledge uh involving the people who have to use the infrastructure, taking their advice. What do they need? What do they want? Um and and indeed keep updating these designs. Don’t do things like you did them in the past. always look at what does the data say, where is it unsafe, how can we make that spot safer, what is the lesson learned we can take from others, what is a standardization that we can put in. I always say we move to roundabouts for example, but even the design of the roundabout in the Netherlands is constantly evolving to make it safer for everybody. Um so it’s not just one design from 40 years ago that we implement. No the design gets continuously uh adapted and of course we have a lot of participation a lot of discussions with the users with neighborhoods with people who live there uh and involve them uh in the solutions as well. What do they want uh to see? Correct. Correct. Um going further of course you know it’s interesting discussion. So when we are building cycling infrastructure of course it’s not just about bike lanes uh it’s also about really reimagining the city rethinking uh how the city functions and you know going ahead there’s this Amsterdam green infrastructure vision 20150 that outlines a future where green spaces cycling and climate resiliency they go hand in hand. So how does uh in your uh thinking the cycling fits into this whole broader strategy for a healthier uh more sustainable Dutch cities and I would say more livable D cities. Yeah. So the Netherlands aims to be carbon neutral by 2050. So that has an impact on everything that we do including infrastructure and and urban design. In the meantime, we also see that due to climate change, uh the extremes are getting heavier, it gets hotter, uh we get more rainfall in shorter periods and we have to adapt our infrastructure to that as well. And one of the lessons learned is that greenery can help in the city. So, first of all, you want to reduce car traffic in the city. uh you want to entice people to walk or cycle or use a green public transportation. You also want to make paved roads or paved areas into greener areas that can absorb heavy rainfall that can help cool down the city in heat waves because the more greenery the cooler uh the city can be. Um, so it’s all of a package design and I think what helps in the Netherlands is that we try to keep um services accessible for people in their immediate neighborhood. We don’t have strict zoning ro rules like um in the US where you have suburbs and you have uh other areas that are commercial areas. In the Netherlands that’s much more mixed. Uh I always say uh the average person in the Netherlands is is 2 kilometers away from the main supermarket. It’s a distance that’s easily cyclable and easily walkable. We don’t need to get a car for that. Same for your doctor, same for uh other services that you require. Usually they are not too far away from where you live. uh and that also helps build these more uh peoplefriendly climate resilient cities where you don’t need to cover long distances to live your normal life. And one thing I really find fascinating when I also personally you know visit there and see uh how people use cycle the uh the important thing is you know cycling has become a allpurpose and all function mode I mean people there use it for say family travel they can take their children on cycle they can go to for shopping and carry their shopping bags uh so all kinds of functions all purposes we are able to do so the you innovation with product design you know cycling being a product and how you innovate for different functions for different requirement I think is fascinating was there a role of government to push this innovation uh towards you know uh making cycling yeah allpurpose all function more I I’m not sure if there was a role really in the innovation for example with what we in the Netherlands have the buck feats which has this thing in front where you can put your children or you can put your household goods when moving uh transportation of bigger items. Uh I don’t think the government was involved in that. However, the government has jumped on promoting cycling. For example, many employers can offer tax-free uh bicycles to their employees if they decide to commute with their bicycle. For example, working for the government, that is something that that we normally have. Uh there is bicycle parking everywhere. The government is really investing. If you look at the latest huge bicycle parkings in Utre at the central station or in Amsterdam at the central station, these are fantastic modern uh state-of-the-art uh parkings. Uh so a lot of money is invested into enticing people to use this bicycle more. And then you have private sector that follows up on that with innovative designs with foldable bicycles with bicycles that you can use as a whole family with your kids in front and in the back they are extended and then you see that the government follows by making uh bicycle parkings with more space for these longer or wider bicycles as well. Um so it’s a symbiosis of government uh private sector working together to try to see how can we stimulate uh people to use bicycles more especially also in this last mile connectivity. More than half of the people who go to a train station in the Netherlands arrive by bicycle or on foot. And the same is when you reach your destination, you can easily borrow uh a bicycle from the the train station to go to where you need to go. All of this creates a a very easy system to use for especially also this last mile connectivity in the city centers where people can get around quite easily. I mean it’s amazing to see a wealthy country with a very good uh standard of living and per capita income you know so many people seamlessly and know with their choice you cycle and I jokingly see that if you go fishing uh in Netherlands you know you may not find fish but you may still find a cycle underwater as well so there’s so many cycles uh but u you know of course world across countries and cities would like to learn from the Dutch experience and Dutch Dutch model. So from your point of view, any practical lessons that you think uh you know cities with different urban forms of traffic behavior can take from this uh Dutch experience of cycling? Yeah. So it’s it’s important to take cycling, but not just cycling, I would say also pedestrian traffic into account in your design from the early stages. It’s not just an add-on. You have public transport, you have bicycles, you have pedestrian traffic, and you have cars. I mean, in the Netherlands, there’s still cars that drive around. It’s not like we don’t have them anymore. It’s part of a mix, and for certain purposes, you can use certain things. So, it’s taking it into account from the beginning. Uh, in the Netherlands, we have developed a lot of expertise on how to do this. So, there is organizations like the Dutch Cycling Embassy that contribute to that. Take it into account from the beginning. Look also at last mile connectivity. Uh in a place like Bangalore for example, there is no major hills. The city is quite flat. Uh the climate is also not too bad. It could be a solution here. Uh and it doesn’t necessarily mean creating bicycle lanes everywhere. It is also looking at okay how can you keep bicycles in maybe some slower residential streets keep them away from the main uh roads but then still create through routes that people can use to get from one part of the city to the other. In the Netherlands you will find that it’s often easier to go from one neighborhood to the next by bicycle on a dedicated bicycle lane than by car when you have to make a a slight U-turn. So we have special routes uh for bicycles that differ from the ones that you take with a car. Uh and that usually with a bicycle get you to your destination more efficiently. Wonderful. And I think in public transport friendly city it’s equally important to have a very good quality access by cycling and walking to make use of public transport also equally you know important and in Netherlands also even for intercity travel. I find it so fascinating to use uh the railway system and you know you can just come out of Shigop Shifal airport just go uh one level down and catch a train to any part of Netherlands you know it’s so seamlessness if I can respond to that if I look at my own example if I go to work in the Netherlands I go on my bicycle dressed like I am now in my in my full suit but okay if it starts raining I need to know that there’s a fullback option with public transportation as Well, because I’m not going to cycle through the rain. Uh so you need to have a good efficient public transport system in place as well. I’ll just uh you know come to um the concluding question. You know I have come across this interesting tidbit that says the Dutch don’t wear helmets. So I mean considering that there’s so much of cycling uh that happens in Dutch. Why is this the case? You know, how do you think we have made the cycling infrastructure so safe and well designed? Yeah, we we always say the Dutch they dress for the destination and not for the ride, which is not fully true. Uh but many people like me use a bicycle for transportation. It’s not for exercise. It’s not for sports. It’s to go from A to B. And we don’t want the hassle of having to uh uh you know comb our hair and everything when we get to the place. We we dress for the place that we are going to. I never wear a helmet while cycling in the Netherlands. I’ve never felt the need because I feel safe. We have dedicated bicycle lanes. We have slow traffic uh you know traffic calming in certain places. Uh I don’t feel in danger. However, we do see that again um some accidents are on the increase also because of the increasing number of ebikes that we have. ebicycles, they go faster, they are heavier. Um, so the government has started to promote the wearing of helmets when cycling. But this requires a big cultural change and cultural changes are not so easy to achieve. So they start now with a focus on on children for example um with the idea that if young people if children get more used to wearing a helmet maybe over time that will result in more people wearing wearing helmets especially with these bicycles that have a little engine that can make you go faster uh that are heavier uh and that have an increased risk of accidents. Yeah. Yeah. But I think you know having a safe infrastructure is extremely important and critical in people feeling good about cycling. I in fact personally you know I live in IC campus uh where I work. Uh so within campus I am very comfortable using my own cycle but I really don’t feel the same comfort while I go out of the IC campus because of the safety you know reasons uh and you know feeling of unsafe. So no yeah as I said in the Netherlands in the Netherlands I’ve I never wear a helmet if I cycle here in Bangalore I do it’s necessary to have this uh to feel safe in the infrastructure and I think what’s big difference in the Netherlands is that everybody who is driving a car is also a cyclist or has been a cyclist when they were young. So people who drive cars are aware what it feels like to be on the road and riding a bicycle as well. Correct. Correct. Yes. And I must say, you know, I have a wonderful, you know, wooden Dutch cycle, um, buff uh, bikes, which is, you know, a formal gift that I received, uh, when, uh, your former mayor of Amsterdam and actually visited our IC campus and we had some signing between IC and University of Amsterdam that time. Uh, our previous uh, council journal of the country, Mr. Alonso Stole was also there with him and he that time gifted the cycle and I preserve it in my office you know very nicely and use it on special days to promote cycling in Bangalore. So in in many ways I carry this Dutch example with me uh and preserve it and showcase it to you know promote cycling in our city. So uh with this you know I am uh extremely thankful to you Mr. Iworth for uh joining this podcast uh and for sharing your time and experience. It’s been such a wonderful conversation and I’m sure this conversation has brought so much of deeper insight into um how cycling has paved the way for more sustainable and livable Dutch cities and this would be a wonderful experience for others to listen to and uh take forward. So with this I can uh just conclude and say to our listeners uh thanks for tuning in and uh for more information about the upcoming world symposium on sustainable transport and livability please visit our official website and uh we’ll continue this conversation in a more deeper way during the symposium. Mr. Ibat is also uh one of our invited speakers during the symposium and we look forward to have more engaging conversation that time. Um, thank you once again, Mr. ID, and thanks to all the listeners. Bye-bye. Thank you. Thank you. Looking forward to it. [Music]