Saddle Setback, Saddle Fore Aft, Saddle Layback. Whatever you call it, it is a very tricky and complex topic. How can you tell if your saddle is too far forwards? Or too far backwards? There is so much evidence and opinion out there that it is hard to know where to start. Thankfully I’ve done the hard work for you, sifting through mountains of information, to present the ULTIMATE GUIDE to horizontal positioning of your road bike saddle!
The simplest method to find your optimal horizontal saddle position is called “KOPS”. What is it? How did this come about? Is it a good strategy? I have the answers for you!
There are many tell tale signs that your saddle is too far forwards or backwards – I have rounded up as many as I could find, and presented all of them here.
At the end of the video I summarise ALL OF THESE FINDINGS and present, IMHO, what is the BEST method to determine the perfect saddle fore aft position.
Contents:
00:00 Intro
01:33 How To Measure Saddle Setback
02:47 Knee Over Pedal Spindle (KOPS)
07:13 Warning!
08:00 Power and Effectiveness
08:34 Muscle Activation and Pedalling Feel
11:00 Joint Pain and Strain
13:26 Upper Body Load and Hand Pressure
14:45 Body Proportions and Body Weight
15:31 Saddle Pressure
17:35 Steve Hogg Balance Test
19:47 Riding Out Of The Saddle
20:58 Bike Handling
21:46 EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
22:09 Benefits of Having Saddle Forwards
22:54 Benefits of Having Saddle Backwards
23:32 DIY Options
24:34 MY Recommendations for DIY Saddle Setback
27:21 And We Are Done!
My “Saddle Height Perfection” Video: https://youtu.be/N_y5eSUOqNk
29 Comments
Interesting info… I am moving to a new place this week, and one of my plans for 2025 is more bike work… I have two different indoor bikes and am going to make the effort to set them up a bit better… One (the gym bike) is like a fixie or track bike, is for cardio, and the other one is what I use for HIIT… a conventional bike on a trainer… so I can speed up in different gears and when I cannot hold the high cadence any longer, I can stop pedalling and not break my ankles and knees. Any research on the idea of quad-biased setup for HIIT work, as bigger muscles that can use more energy…?
Great analysis
A very well done video. So much information to think about thank you for sharing with us❤
As far forward as possible. Ride on the nose, use a smaller size frame with a log reach in relation to stack and a long stem.
This was a great summary of all current resources of the topic currently on internet, I went down the rabbit hole a couple of years ago trying to find the optimal position, I think setback is the most underrated Bike fit element of all the system, people focus too much on saddle height however I found it has the biggest window of range, u can be 1 cm off your position but still be fine, but setback, not so much, I have long legs compared to my torso and long femurs, something that is not considered that often is the relation between the femur and tibia, if your legs have longer femurs in proportion to your tibia, u would need a lot of setback, not moving forward and increasing saddle height as I mistakenly did.
The balance test for me didn't work, I’m 62 kg and 178 cm tall, I’m very light in the upper part of my body, I found I could pass the test everywhere on the rail, also paying too much attention to the knee pain for dictating your setback position is not very accurate, I rode for 6 years with a 3 cm setback seat post, and the saddle all the way back, any minimal mm movement to the front would cause my knee to hurt however during all that time I still was really far back of my optimal position, it was just my body wasn't used at all of putting any pressure when the saddle setback was in a more forward position.
I found thought trial and error that, riding at zone 2 with an experimental position will maybe give you short term overview of the success of your position, but your body will adapt to it, so you need to test it at a threshold intensity pace and a minimum of 14 mins of it, not short 3 minutes test, because if u do only Z2 u can be 2 cm too far forward but suddenly your knee pain would disappear, you may also no longer feel pain in the shoulders and all of that, so u might think well now I have my optimal position.
In my case I could ride for Z2 5 hours no issue, but 7+ hours rides would give me effects of the wrong position, but who would ride that much to find it right?, you can be too far forward and not feeling a super engaged quads because they are simply too weak in that position, I found I was really too far forward, when I finally decided to do high intensity work, I just rode Z2 for 2 years expecting my body to adapt to a more forward position, but when I finally did a FTP test, the 20 minute test, with the position all wrong I pushed really good numbers for the first 4 minutes then slowly I died :), even having 2 years of this position with no pain at all, I even bought a longer stem to accommodate the more forward position, I drooped about 40 watts from start to end of the test and it wasn't because I couldn’t pace it, I even aimed for 30 watts less than my all time PB, it was because at the last part it just feels like I couldn’t push down at all, I could only spin, but the HR was through the roof, I moved the saddle 1.5 cm back and the problem is now solved. so even in my case the online sources suggest I would need a really frontal position because my long legs, reality is that everybody is simply too different.
Great to see you doing ok. I have my saddle position perfect these days. The only issue is I should have got a 10mm longer stem on my integrated bars. I get numb hands from not being able to stretch out enough. It is perfect on my indoor bike.
Best content ever!
Excellent video combining all that confusing and often contradictory information together! You've got a new subscriber!
I think the crank length also influences many of the factors mentioned here.
Great, great video. Thank you! This helped reconcile the contradictory information I read about front vs back positions and power/muscle recruitment.
An ideal position is clearly a compromise of competing factors. Moreover, it is impacted by rider strength, weight, and flexibility—all moving targets on and off-season.
Understanding these issues and self-knowledge are essential if you attempt to fiddle with these settings. Periodic fittings are likely money well spent!
Thanks!
Outstanding! Thank You!
KOPS is a place to start and return to if the saddle needs to move
Great video! Thanks for sharing a path forward in trying to clarify a lot of contradictory information.
Excellent video! Love your videos!
Btw, i have this image on my wall 😀
Very interesting, thanks. I've been riding since the early 1980's, what I notice today is a lot of amateur level road cyclists with toes pointing down at the bottom of the pedal stroke. To me it looks like reaching for the bottom power spot. Old school was a flat foot at bottom of pedal stroke. Today at 71, as a touring cyclist, I ride flat pedals with stiff trail running shoes. I've crossed the U.S. twice since retiring with trail runners and flat pedals. Happy trails!
ok I feel like a muppet for measuring the setback… I've been using a plumb line and measuring that all the way back to the mid 90s… the wall method simplifies things so nicely haha…
Great work from Podium Fysio. One recommodation or what seems to be overlooked in the summary at the end is the handlebar reach. It is mentioned in the self analysis but needs Some star attention in my opinion and experience. One should feel and experience again what happens with the weight distribution and feeling of reach, the saddle and the pressure distribution when the stem length (and height) is altered just like Steve says. So when you are doing this at home without changing stemlenght / position you are not doing the full job. A good fitter Will have an adjustable bikefit stem with which you can alter te stem lenght and angle in seconds. I’m sure Podium has one. Than the circle is round and you Can experience and find out what works best for you. As Podium says: take knowledge and understanding of your own position. Test and find out within your fit window. Never go to a fitter who claims to ‘ put you on your bike” (in 90 minutes?). It is a co production of rider and fitter. Happy riding.
🎉 amazing video. Really really good. Your bikefit videos are the best so far on YouTube. Thank you so much!
Nice job putting all this together. I tend to get my seat height set and tilt with a rough idea of setback and start moving it by a 1mm at a time. I do get knee pain, weight on the hands, thigh rubbing (depending on saddle) when it's too far forward. Too far back and lower back discomfort, heavy hamstring involvement etc. There's a sweetspot for me. Basically 0.5-1.5mm back from where I start feeling weight more weight on the hands is about right. I do think however with shorter cranks that knee pain when moving forward probably wouldn't occur.
Awesome video! Super important set up factor and very difficult especially for tall riders to get right. As with the crank length discussion (manufacturers do not product sufficient selection of longer crank options for tall, or shorter cranks for short riders), modern bikes, especially those using proprietary 20-25mm setback posts, have too steep seat angles for long legged riders to get far back enough to "pass" the balance test. Keep this in mind if you are tall (above 6'2") as you may need to look harder for a slacker setback frame and / or setback post such as FSA SB32 which only work with frames designed for 27.2mm diameter posts.
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Excellent video. Given the TT/tri bike mentions, how would you approach the balance test then?
Why all the crashes?
Nice "literature review"! I actually have read almost all the papers you mentioned and the videos, however still yet to find a clear conclusion just like you said. However I want to add the hamstring flexibility is also a huge factor which I had missed before too. The functional/effective hamstring flexibility/range — the max KNEE angle you can get when you hinge your body down at the hips, trying to touch the ground with spine not curving so much, vary hugely across different people. And that can have huge influence about the setback you can do. I can only get about 135 degree, however every average yoga girl in the yoga class I just attended could operate at nearly 180 degree, which means a straight leg. The instructor thought I was just lazy only to get shocked that's what all I have. However I have exceptional hip flexibility with a natural posture of an anterior tilted pelvis. I can reach floor quite easy only from that pelvis tilt, even though my hamstring was horrible. I have no problem riding with ~15 cm drops. So the ability to ride low doesn't mean you have "good flexibility". What's that in relate to the setback? Just think this, we all agree that the lower leg should be functionally vertical during the downstroke, let's freeze that vertical lower leg, then you can rotate your femur around the knee, to get a series of applicable positions. You'll see how forward and high you can go is dictated from that MAX knee angle your body can take during the bend down test. For those 180 degree girls, it will come to other factors, but for the 135 degree folks like me, this is the limiting factor. Sure we can all get straight legs once you stand up, but if you want to ride low bending down, that angle will become a determining factor for your setback. That's a revelation moment for me. Because before this I have looked at so many things, checked all the boxes including balance test etc (I have strong core, I can pass almost everywhere), but never really understand why I can't comfortably ride at where I "should be". I'm with the school of "high and forward" just like the end of this video because that's what science says and what you can feel. However it just doesn't make sense why that seemingly correct position doesn't feel correct but that "wrong" position feels like home. Until that revelation moment when I saw "how the hell could every girl in this room do that?????". I'm only about 1/3 flexible in this part. And everything started to make sense. I would add this to the already long checklist. And I remember actually there are quite a few literatures about hamstring flexibility and saddle height/fore-aft, however before that revelation moment I just ignored them because I didn't really understand hamstring flexibility and just because I can ride a low position I thought I must have at least OK hamstring, which turns out to be my biggest overlook over this issue.
Kops, 70s 80s, 90s methodology. Today..not too relevant. I don't race anymore but do cover plenty of miles. What helped me is getting the cleats quite back. I cover the odd 100 miles jolly still pacey and have no worries. After positioning the saddle central I've now moved it forwards around 10mm mainly due to the cleats. Removed the power saddle and reverted back to the Romin. Power saddle made me gravitate forwards and loaded up the front. Working towards if it looks right and feels right there's a chance of being reasonably right. No aches or pains anywhere.
That was easy to watch! Well explained and calmly delivered information. Gotta sub from me👍
well done! My response would be way too lengthy so I might actually do a video for my channel instead. Thank you!
I have experienced that the saddle tilt of perhaps only one or two degrees has a much larger impact and can ruin all the fitting achievements done before.
I almost properly adjusted my too large frame road endurance bike with extreme short stem and found a pretty balanced saddle position, balanced in terms of weight and quads-hams-recruitment.
But when I went down to an aero position I realized that I needed a bit more saddle tilt to remain in that position for more than few minutes.
But with the right tilt for aero position everything went out of balance and even the reach was too short…😢😢
I will try a longer stem with a few little less saddle tilt, hopefully it's gonna be alright.
The saddle tilts the pelvis, so your upper body does also tilt more forward in the upright position.
It almost seems to me I need a different fit for hoods and drops.