Jack Brough is a fast developing rider, racing at the highest level of French national racing for AVC Aix en Provence. Jack is a class rider with many national and european titles to his name, now riding at the French Division 1 level.
Hear about how he got himself to represent GB in the senior academy, race the Tour de l’Avenir 6 weeks after undergoing surgery, and how a performance driven mindset has got him to where he is.
I would like to say a massive thanks to Jack for sitting down with me to chat about his progression through the sport. I will absolutely be following the rest of his season!
You can find jack here: https://www.instagram.com/broughjack_/
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction and Background
3:18 Developing to get National titles
9:14 Transitioning from Junior to U23 racing
15:23 The role of teamwork in professional racing
17:25 From surgery to AVC Aix en Provence
27:45 Hows your French?
34:20 Is confidence the key to success in cycling?
36:19 Riding for Team GB at the Tour of Britain
40:37 What does Stevie Williams do to be at the World Tour level?
42:25 Playing a team role in the Tour of Britain
45:35 The importance of performance goals for improvement
48:56 Winning early season races – Ronde du Pays Basque
55:28 Managing pressure at a high level of the sport
okay hello everybody Welcome Back to the pursuit of the podium podcast we’re here understanding how you can make it pro how you can get up to that highest level of the podium through interviews with riders coaches nutritionists those sorts of people and really understanding what are the steps that you need to take and how can you bounce back from injuries setbacks those sorts of things to be able to reach that TOP Step at the podium so today I am joined by Jack BR who is currently riding for Aon provance Jack how are you doing yeah good thanks actually uh yeah just enjoying a bit of time back at home with my parents uh just after yeah my mid-season break after Nationals and yeah making the most of well what’s supposed to be British summer but um yeah couple couple weeks back at home and then and then yeah back out to France so just enjoy my time here for now nice so you’re very much back into the winter kit then I imagine yeah not not really what I expected you know dragging out the Longs and and Rain cape and stuff yesterday um even un forecast rain seems to make an appearance so yeah not not the summer I was hoping for in the UK but you know it’s fine not not very acclimatized for getting back out into French sumwhere anyway say that it is what it is I mean where are you living in France at the moment you must be a sort of a region I imagine yeah so just on the outskirts of um the city itself um yeah so south of France just like half an hour from Mars um really lucky with where we are like riding wise and weather wise really like we’ve got great roads like mixture of you know some longer mountains some nice flat roads just yeah can get to the coast and a longer ride but yeah the main thing is it’s just always always seems to be warm and sunny I think well I went out to to France start of January this year and uh since then I think I’ve done maybe four or five rides in the rain there all my races seem to be raining but at least uh in training just yeah sunny skies so can’t complain with with living there that keeps the morale High I think so always is useful um I think really to sort of jump into things firstly like we we met on riding on the Mi Academy which just IES Racing Academy um racing sort of a few International races a lot of elite well Elite you know it’s Junior under 16 sort of level races so those sort of developing of riders going from sort of that club to Team level but whilst still actually just being like yeah we’re just here to kind of have a laugh on our bikes and maybe do some bike racing and that sort of thing but what I really wanted to kind of start with is you had a big step up going into the junior level where sort of at sort of under 16s you were sort of near the pointy end but sort of not quite getting those national titles for example and really kind of the question is you then managed to mop up a load of track Nationals and what was the difference that you sort of what changed to be able to get you to that really super pointy and high level uh I guess it’s just different development rates really like you know I was always one of the smaller kids I mean I still am but particularly when I was younger I used to be yeah you know you’d Notice Me F small I was compared to well I didn’t help being near Josh a lot of the time but uh yeah it was uh quite noticeable that I was I was bit of a late bloomer in that sense and um yeah all the way through I seemed to be like the younger youth days I seem to be yeah just that couple steps behind everyone um and yeah once once I got to Junior I think uh obviously I missed I missed my first year Junior of racing anyway due to uh due to covid but before that I was I was on The Apprentice system is what it was called then I’m not sure what it’s called now but it’s basically on the British cycling pathway um and you know I was I was good enough to be a part of that but I was one of for sure one of the weaker Riders on it um like I I was always you know struggling to compete with those those top guys that I was on the program with I mean if you look some of the guys that are there you know you’ve got the likes of Max Paul Finn Pickering J Giddings all of these guys you know they’re going pro or are pro and Top Flight Pros like it’s not um yeah they’re they were really good at that age and and have progressed since but you know it it was a strong group and always kept me you know pushing past my limit um but unfortunately because wasn’t you know progressing quickly enough I got dropped from the the BREC system um at the end of6 and so was going into junior years kind of just fending for myself um but I kind of always enjoyed being in that position I enjoyed having something to prove and like trying to fight back to get there and uh like really set set myself a high standard for what I wanted to do as a first year Junior and kind of wanted to show what I was about and yeah I think the only racing I got to do before covid was the national track Champs the senior ones and uh yeah I managed to kind of show a little bit what I was about like qualifying for the finals in those was quite impressive as a junior and I managed to do that in the scratch and then have a have a really good final and actually was in the mix for the win I was away um in the last I don’t know 10 laps or something got caught in the last lap and was like a big thing of like wow okay like I’m still you know in the mix here even though like BC haven’t seen that potential I still believe that there’s something there and unfortunately yeah Co hit and didn’t get the chance to kind of prove it that year but you know it allowed me to have greater balance in you know I was still doing my a levels six form and you know credit to my parents they have always said like they want me to keep a backup and you know go through with education and it’s like yeah it’s a really important thing I think for younger Riders and a lot of guys are are starting to drop that when you know they see some of the guys going through now and and uh you know skipping school going straight to the pros but that’s abnormal like really that’s a one one a million Rider like it’s so important to keep your education and keep another another aspect of life like you never know what’s going to happen um yeah Co allowed me to to train harder and longer while it’s also balancing that education so it meant that yeah I came into came into winter before second year you know hoping yeah probably get some racing in 2021 um luckily that result in the uh National trap championships gave me a bit of a look into Junior Academy and back on the British pathway um Stuart blunt uh the I think he’s still the the program um like coach for for the juniors he you know sent out an email I got invited to do some some testing and eventually ended up as a guest Rider on the Junior Academy um so not not with the funding or the support but I got to go to their their training camps and you know kind of be back in that mix of Ryder again that I was on on on apprentice and uh yeah again was trying to prove prove what I had and it was great you know it’s challenging again like again I wasn’t one of the top Riders but you know I was always fighting every Camp I was just trying to improve improve improve and catch back up and could see the Gap getting closer um and yeah kind of got the national track Champs Junior National track Champs which was a big aim for me and yeah kind of found that I am with them now and I ended up coming away with that with with a bronze in the in the points race but then also a Madison win with uh Josh Giddings which we did as as under 16s we won the Madison Nationals then but then yeah to win it as a junior as well was another big step up and yeah real big goal and just kind kind of rode the wave of confidence after that going into into the road as well um and you ended up ended up going pretty well in the road scene at the end of that season as well but yeah yeah I think that’s something which is is very much one of the traits of somebody who gets up to that really high level as you are which is actually firstly I’ve got something to prove which is I am really good and actually that not going through almost the so traditional GB program you know you’ve benefited so much from it already which we can come on to in a little bit but actually saying like look you know I’m coming back with a vengeance I’m not giving up and actually that kind of self motivation self-dedication to be like yeah I’m going to make this work while still obviously doing your education and still making sure that you’re you’re still working through all of those and checking those boxes but actually saying like look yeah I’m GNA make this and it’s all of that sort of yeah that that just self-belief really which I think is is something which is crucial to a lot of people that I’ve that I’ve been talking to recently Amy Perryman Ben shilton even Charlie as well Charlie laai all just that yeah I’m going to make it work and I’m going to do everything in my power that I can to be able to make that work and actually then sort of from those National Championship wins you’re able to then ride for GB in some Nation cup levels in more of the U23 races how was that step up from junior level to that U23 races riding for the country yeah so my first my first time representing the country was actually worlds as a junior um yeah I I off the back of of the Nationals I Won Won Cadence uh National Road Race and then uh was second in the junior tour of Wales overall and you know that was enough to to get me a spot at Road worlds that year and yeah that was that was crazy I didn’t even apply to start with like I didn’t even I didn’t know there was an application form I didn’t know anything about it like never even been a thought and uh yeah to then get the email through that I was going was was pretty crazy and uh yeah it’s something that St had then said to me like when we got there remember this and like really you know take it in your first time wearing the GB Jersey so like it means so much and it’s something it’s a massive achievement in itself I think it’s something you can take with you through your whole life and I really wanted to to yeah as I say take it in and and ride with pride of you know representing the country and yeah it was it was pretty surreal um and whil I was there Matt bramer who was then the who still is um the senior Academy coach came up to me and uh yeah offered me offered me a place on the senior Academy um which you know he said it wasn’t just for for how I was riding but also my attitude off the bike um so through those Junior years I was I was coaching myself I didn’t have a coach and you know off of that self-belief and you know in Drive of just wanting to get better and getting the most out of myself you know on and off the bike I’d really shown my character and you know shown that potential there and Matt had seen it and wanted to progress that further on senior Academy so yeah then moved moved up to Manchester in November or whatever it was that that winter and yeah set to work with with the academy Lads and um yeah that eventually led to yeah all these great opportunities and I think my first Nations cup at the under 23 level was uh get wev game when that was when that was a Nations cup and well yeah it was it was another big step up like just the well one living away from home that was a big thing uh being in those Academy houses in Manchester and having to fend for yourself you know learn you know washing doesn’t just get delivered to your bedroom anymore and all this kind of stuff like you got to be ready for for training and and races and you know it’s that dependence on yourself to to be prepared and uh yeah I think I I cop pretty well and uh I I felt like I stepped up fairly well as well to the changing racing I think you know the harder the races were at Junior the better I seem to do and that kind of gave me confidence that I was going to be fairly good when I got up to under 23 and yeah to be honest I think it it seemed to go quite well I started out in Rwanda and got just outside the top 10 on one of the stages but I was like you know it was pretty nice to see that I could compete with these like there was Pros there and I was like well that’s again last year this would have been insane so I was yeah really happy to see that that that progression carried on and uh yeah going into like the Nations cups and stuff with with the GB national team and just doing doing what I could doing my role but also taking an experience um for you know later years in under 23 like I think I was yeah the youngest guy youngest guy there but you know learning a lot and making a lot of mistakes also but that’s that’s what they want like that’s that’s the point in and sending some of those younger guys that that maybe might not have been the best option for the team but in the long run it’s it’s great for the development and um yeah as I say learn learned a lot and it’s really a really great experience to to see what these Top Flight under 23s are are like compared to compared to me really yeah and I think that’s correct me if I’m wrong it seems like it’s so much more like professional but also that you’ve got specific gos within the team you know you might have a dedicated leader and then dedicated domestiques and those sorts of things is that about right with sort of how those races are run compared to sort of those Junior racing which is a bit more individual yeah for sure I mean my uh so my Junior team was was rst or zero cycle division um and pretty much like we were a team but it’s just a case of kind of freefor all whoever’s the strongest will be going for the win you know it’s it’s not we won’t be riding for one Rider um especially the way Junior racing is it’s just like don’t chase your teammate down just the the real basics of teamwork like no yeah we’re not going to be doing lead out trains or any any of that jazz so it’s yeah it was a big a big shift in you know having a pre-race meeting and different jobs different roles like looking at the route and and deciding where we’re going to you know take on the race and and yeah use the strengths of our different Riders to to eventually come out with a with a win and yeah definitely definitely felt more Pro um than what I’d experienced before you know yeah it was it was great I mean I’m quite uh I quite like being a part of a team I’m not a natural leader I’ve not really got that uh kind of leadership mentality as of yet um so I find i f quite quite easily into a domestic kind of role but take real enjoyment out of it um I get quite yeah quite good satisfaction from from doing doing my job well and uh yeah eventually hopefully that that ends up with the team result but yeah no it was it was a good good experience and good to see that what the the pro kind of set up is like yeah absolutely and I think that then obviously pay dividends when you’re able to then get a lot of a mop up of European titles on the track and then also then being able to then progress from there to them riding for AES as well and really that step from the GB Academy to AES was that due to contacts that you’d managed to gain within doing those races or was it that there was maybe somebody like Matt brmir said actually this is a class Rider and this is a really good place for him to then go and develop even further so how it worked was uh when I first joined Academy we had the road program as part of it as well with Team inspired and that summer uh the program changed quite a bit um which basically meant that the road side of the program was stopping and that we needed to yeah needed to find Road teams for for the next year like we’ continue on with the track but then to facilitate that with the road we would have to find our own Road teams which was a big difference to what it had been before um positive but also negative like you know we weren’t all together and training together and have that base in Manchester that was going to change quite a lot but you know hopefully we would have got more opportunities on the road more races a stronger development on that side of things but came up at quite a poor time for me um so in the start of June that summer I had a pretty bad crash and ended up having to yeah have surgery and have my spleen removed um which was a pretty big setback at the time um you know I felt like I was I was in a good place as a first year and you know getting these great opportunities and learning um but then that all kind of came to a pretty abrupt Halt and uh yeah I’d been off the bike for I think it was just over a month um I’d spent a week in intensive care and then yeah off the bike for a month which you know I was coming back from just started riding and yeah there was kind of these rumors that that the program was was changing and the roads side of things would be stopping and I kind of felt that pressure to like I’m not actually got that much behind me and I need I need to get back racing basically um and originally the BC doctor kind of said you know it’s going to be three months before before your back racing but um but you know as cyclists we always try and half that or you know just take a shortcut every time you can and you know I really knuckled down to I mean shout out to to all the um physio staff and and the medical staff at British aring that they were super helpful and had onetoone uh yeah rehab and really knuckled down into it and really focused on it and you know I was making really quick progression um it was the first time they’ worked with that but they found found it similar to um when women had had like a C-section um so i’ I’d had to cut all the way through my abs um like vertically down and so they’re like okay we’ll put you on a similar kind of course to to like a C-section it’s similar so kind of built that strength back up in my core and you know really kind of made quick progress surprisingly quick progress and I managed to well I set the target of CH Bryce being a potential first race back it was pretty ambitious with it being think it was six weeks post crash um that’s just but that’s managed to make it um yeah I manag to get enough strength in the in the core and enough Fitness to to make the start line at CH price 6 weeks after and uh yeah I was nowhere near where I wanted to be for you know if I was going to try and compete in the race for the win but you know it was just getting back in a race and back feeling like I was progressing again um but yeah it was started off with a team time TR or something and uh I think averaged it’s still my max heart rates ever uh it was like 23 beats per minute or something for like nearly 20 minutes like just just to get around basically yeah just that top end just completely gone but I think still even with six weeks off the bike like you’re going to have some base level Fitness that you’re going to come back to but I think like yeah that just being able to get back on is just so impressive I’d also yeah i’ lost quite a lot of muscle as well I think I was yeah for sure the lightest I’ve ever been I was sub 60 kilos like around 58 just because of the muscle i’ lost just you know lying in a in a bed for God knows how long um so yeah I wasn’t I was nowhere near you know strong but it was you know it was all I could think about I was like I need to get back racing need to start progressing to try and get some more results to to find a team basically um and then got the call up for for lavir that year which you know came as a shock to me but the way it was you know proposed to me was you know it’s it’s learning for future years like we’ve seen how well and how committed you’ve been through this through this last two months of getting yourself back fit and back racing and you know I’d shown my character again and and yeah they wanted to they wanted to take me as you know an almost an achievement for that and uh yeah so I could learn for for years down the line at this event and uh yeah purely as a domestique but you know just with that kind of almost pressure off as well just to just to go and experience it um but again yeah just kind of getting my head kicked in and uh yeah it wasn’t you know I was going an off chance that you know who knows what might happen I might pick up a a fairly decent result at some point and you know that’ll that’ll help again with with negotiations with teams um yeah ended up dnfing we we all dnfed with I think three quarters of race DN after with stomach issues and God knows what illnesses were going around it was yeah still one of the grimmest races I’ve been to in terms of yeah hotels and stuff so oh dear yeah it was a not exactly no no for the you know for what’s supposed to be the top under 23 race in the world it’s uh it’s pretty eye opening for yeah the condition yeah but the Riders go through and you know you always see a bit of an upset at lav I think that’s probably why it’s pretty yeah it’s a lot of luck off the bike as well as you know being the strongest on it but yeah from from those those results and and what came about you know we we were trying to get in touch with a load of teams but there wasn’t too much interest um but no managed to get in contact with John Michelle from uh from X and you know he was he was really positive and and saw that Vision that you know Academy had seen and and was willing to to take take me on and you know take a shot at at seeing what I could do for them the next year so yeah it was a you know really I’m really thankful for them to take that opportunity on me you know it was bever risk like clearly I wasn’t going very well at the time and you know it was a risk we I would have actually returned to to what I was before I guess um you know they took their risk and yeah I’m I’m really grateful that they did CU you know I’m happy in in the team now and you know yeah they’ve offered me some great opportunities and yeah progressed well since joining them yeah I think that’s that’s absolutely sort of what’s clear is that they’ve seen that potential within you the fact that you’ve been able to absolutely dive into that rehab and put everything that you’ve got into that rehab as well as then be able to then get that and progress through get back on the bike within 6 weeks which is you know half the time that the doctors were saying you’re going to get back on and then also then go from there and say like look I’m going to do these races I know I’m going to get my head kicked in but I’m here to learn and I’m here to then invest in my future where I could just be doing sort of local races to them get some confidence back but actually know we’re going to go right up to the highest level toward l a and still be able to play a role which I think is just very very impressive and I think that like them being able to get up into X and being able to race those high level races you know that div one level of France and get up to those sort of 2.1 two. Pro races actually then does mean that you’ve got that you got that background with to lavenir to Rwanda and then actually then be able to then play that into those other races where you can then play a more supportive role like you said you really really enjoy that where actually it’s just really rewarding to have to say right I’ve done this and then I can see my team leader go up the road and take the wins and that’s that’s super cool but yeah sort of that that step up into that high level French div racing was that different to racing on the Academy I imagine that sort of do you have to learn French uh yeah so I I went out just after I did Rand again um with GB at the start of last year and then straight away from there went out to France and missed uh missed the team counts and stuff because of track Nationals and yeah really kind of I I felt like I didn’t have much information or know anyone from the team or anything so it’s a little bit like I don’t even know what to expect coming out here I knew a couple of the guys on the team and there’s a a few more Brits so I knew that there’ be be people that I could you know learn from and and work out what’s what’s actually going on in the team um but yeah kind of went out there straight away and wanted to wanted to set the tone right and uh yeah I think it wasn’t wasn’t the best decision in the team’s eyes to not go out and do these training camps and and whatnot um but you know with the commitments I had to the track it was a bit of a balancing act and you know maybe didn’t start off on the best foot with the team like missing those camps so I wanted to really go out and kind of show show what I’m about and uh yeah try and win them back basically and yeah went straight out in my first race with the team we ended up um with a one two 3 4 and uh yeah I was you know pretty pretty happy with that and played it again played a really big team role in you know tactically in the Breakaway and you know we ended up working it over so that you know we had three guys up the road and uh yeah me kind of just picking off the guys that we’ that we got away with um yeah and eventually coming coming in just behind the three the trio up the road that had yeah broken away from from the early break with yeah with all of us in it so yeah it was like great to create that Bond straight away and uh you know the team then trusted me and knew my strength and yeah it set the tone back right and did exactly what I wanted to um I yeah didn’t didn’t have any french um bonjo was was my limit and yeah that that obviously was was tricky uh like I’ve never been great with languages I did German at uh GCSE but only CU I got picked to like it was a system that I I didn’t want to do it but ended up getting picked for it and uh yeah languages just never clicked and so trying to teach myself french was yeah not going very well um and I’m a bit of a bit of an introverted person when it comes to you know meeting new people and and stuff so I really didn’t pick it up well last year like obviously I didn’t know anyone any of the French guys on the on the team and so really kind of struggled picking up the language that way as well um so yeah spent the whole of last year just kind of singled out a little bit especially when it was uh yeah purely French teammates uh when I had another Brit or like a kiwi on the team with me in individual race like it was you know a lot nicer but yeah when I’ve got all French staff and all French Riders I was I was struggling a little bit um to try and communicate and fit in um um which I feel like I’ve you know I realized that was a problem going through the year and over the last winter I’ve managed to buckle my friendch up a bit and yeah I’m a bit better now I can I can hold a bit of a conversation um yeah still fairly limited but you know I’m making making progress with it and yeah it’s definitely definitely helping out there um but yeah no going into my second year second year with the team and and taking more of a you know leadership role Within team which is which is great yeah I think sort of is that something which maybe if you looked at yourself two three years ago was that something that you would maybe recommend to to focus on just even with further progression through the sport maybe you’re not actually living in France itself but just being able to to kind of be able to interact with those those key players within cycling to sort of develop that like French language is that something that you recommend yeah for sure I mean I think most of other countries you’d get away with with just English but French I think yeah it’s it’s pretty important and uh yeah it’s already you know if you’re a young Rider looking to move abroad to France it’s already a big enough Step Living for yourself um luckily I had that first year of Academy where you know was I’ve moved away from my parents I was living in high in Manchester with other Academy Riders and learned how to fer myself and and yeah be organized but then if I had to do that whilst not knowing how to speak the language and not being able to communicate with housemates or anything like that would have been that would have been yeah 10 times harder so for sure if you’re thinking about it get on with it early and you know I think looking back at it I would have paid for French actual French lessons um as good as dualingo is it’s not an ad for du lingo but um yeah it’s enough I think you need proper proper lessons to get you that base before yeah before heading out there and just makes things run a lot smoother um and the team really appreciates it as well if you’ve gone out of your way to take the time to to communicate with them properly like yeah it’s a good show of your your character yeah they really appreciate it yeah absolutely and I think sort of it builds that trust and also that confidence with those Riders as well and I think going back to that sort of confidence sort of vein where getting that 1 two 3 4 right at the start of the season last year and then that meant that you were able to sort of say like yeah look I’m up to the right level I’m I’m invested in the team now and you know I’ve done I’ve basically done all my track racing that’s all sorted brilliant and now we can sort of invest in that Team level do you think that sort of confidence and being able to integrate with those with that team and something that’s key to the success of the team yeah I think so um like the dm1 seems getting more and more professionalized like uh yeah it’s a lot more tactics and less yeah less like just the strongest guy wins um you know you need a good team around you nowadays and in dm1 racing and yeah it’s a good change like it’s good to see I think before it was pretty just freefor all a bit like you still get it with some races like it’s the way I can describe it as like a Nat b in the UK like just full gas and you know the strongest Rider will end up winning but yeah you can see that shift starting to come in like scientificly and you know French starting to learn about aerodynamics as well which is oh no which is yeah exactly um so yeah it’s starting to starting to get more professionalized out in the in the scene out there and yeah definitely that team role starting to starting to take more of a shape um I know it’s something that that’s progressed quite a lot in our team um since yeah we when I joined we also got a new uh head DS of aldas who you know he was Pro for 10 years out in France and um yeah some of his stand out results like he’s top 10 P Bay before and yeah he came on and really created a bit of a shift in our team and and made a uh yeah made a big step towards being more professionalized and you know having these team plans and yeah it’s definitely changed the way that the Racing’s going and uh yeah we’re starting to starting to follow that and you know we’re we’re now one of the top teams in France and and starting to to show that yeah we’re making the right steps and yeah and sort of within that first season of riding for AES you also got the opportunity to ride for teamgb at the tour of Britain what was it like racing some of your home roads in those national colors sort of at that sort of super high level basically the highest level that you can ride in the UK and just being like yeah yeah that was pretty pretty crazy um yeah again kind of dream stuff I remember going and watching the tour Britain um when I was younger and when I first got into the spot like it was surreal just going and looking at all the you know walking around seeing all the team Vans all that kind of stuff and you know the heroes that I’d seen in the to of France or whatever and was like my God they’re actually here racing in Britain and could really believe that you could get this close to it and then to think that I’d be racing that is yeah insane like it’s another one of those steps that I wouldn’t have dreamed of like it’s in my dreams for it to happen but you know a dreams a dream it’s not you wouldn’t think all of them are going to come reality and I was like this is yeah this is pretty crazy and you know Matt put in a good team of a nice balance of us a few Academy Riders me uh Josh and Noah but then also a good mix of uh Pros as well so we had Stevie Williams and and Ethan Vernon there and uh yeah I was I was rooming with Stevie for the week and yeah it was great learning from him and seeing how he goes about a stage race and you know he’s he’s a rider that’s making massive progression now in in the world tour and you know winning these big races and so it was yeah it was kind of again crazy that you know I’d even be just sharing a room with with someone like that and you know being able to ride for them and race with them it was yeah pretty pretty crazy um it was yeah I was found it hard to to do my job it was another big step up like more than any like. ones or point tws that I’ve done before like just the uh yeah the ability that that the Riders had in the pelaton and uh yeah since i’ i’ struggled a bit with confidence since the since the crash and and yeah that kind of tested it a lot in those six six Bunch Sprints to start with and uh yeah obviously we had Vernon there who’s a who’s a top FL um Sprinter on the world tour scene so you know we had good opportunities to go for stage wins with him and you know I was trying to do my bit in the lead out and the first two days it was like I was just blown away I just yeah didn’t really know what to do or or how to do it it was like a whole new sport basically um like it was so weird the whole day had been really easy and then you come into the last 15 km and you know like it was just felt like 60k an hour but no one was moving it was just a block on the road and I yeah I was find it really hard to to move around the peleton and do my job and I was like this it was just yeah mentally fried me I just had no idea no idea what to do but um you know learning from these from these Pros that I was with like each day I made progression and was more and more helpful for the team um but you know I was just taking little steps but getting Confidence from it each day and yeah eventually you know I was I was managed to managing to do do my bit and felt like I was contributing more to the team which you know put me in a better better mental state and yeah it was it was great and then obviously you know had a had a home home day in uh well near enough home day in Nottingham and you know seeing seeing my friends from school and family and stuff it was like yeah pretty surreal that you know they’d be coming out to watch a bik race and and I’m in it um yeah on that kind of level so yeah it was it was a really good opportunity and yeah a real nice experience and when you’re rooming with Stevie Williams was there anything specific that he that he does that he acts around himself that’s able to then kind of bridge up to that higher level of the sport I think the the biggest thing I noticed was was how calm he seemed like it’s a pretty uh you know he was he was there for the GC and you know it was pretty tense finishes and stuff and you know the the GC days weren’t until the weekend and you could see like questioning form and you didn’t really know with no GC stages early on you didn’t know where you were and you know having to wait all week to then show what you’re about it was like yeah you could see he was thinking all always like questioning how he was going but was always relaxed like he I never felt that he was stressed about anything like anything that came up he was you know he took it in his stride and and didn’t get worked up over things and I think that’s a big thing for you know Pros now you’re doing how many race days and and whatever if you get so worked up about every race you’re just going to end up so Fried by the end of the year um that you’re just not going to even be able to compete so I think it’s just kind of controlling the controllables but you know something’s out of your power you just got to take it in your stride and move on from that and I think you could see that a lot with him like he just yeah kind of rolled with it a lot and he’s quite laid back in in how he races as well but you know when it comes time to time two race he’s yeah he’s on it and yeah I think it’s choosing your moments to be stressed I think and that’s was pretty interesting to see and then also there Bunch Sprints you said that you you sort of were able to kind of level up and be able to kind of play that key role within those bunch of Sprints was there something again specific there or was it just confidence and just saying like look actually I can hang with these boys and actually I can get myself to the front of this race I I would say it was a key role but um like I kind of had the job from uh hard to remember now but from like having 8ks out or something to uh you know just to push win if we needed um you know we every day it seemed like we’re kind of planning to to do a late rush we had two like really great guys in in Josh and Noah who yeah they’re they’re both young but super talented in these in these Sprint finals and uh yeah it was like for me it was just about yeah pushing wind if we needed to early on and you know the start of the start of the week it felt like such a such a shock I was struggling to even you know get to the front to be able to do that if you know if they needed but then by the end of the week I was I was there consistently and you know there was a day in the Crosswinds where I was supposed to be looking after Stevie um just kind of being with him the whole time you know if anything anything splitting the Crosswinds I needed to be there with him and you know if anything happened trying to get him you know keep him safe and um whatnot and yeah just kind of built it positive experience by positive experience like every time I’d I’d get a k further or you know I’d be there in more situations than I wasn’t and then by the end of the week you know I was there every time I was supposed to be and you know it wasn’t the biggest of things but for me like it wasn’t the biggest of roles it didn’t make the biggest of differences to the result but for me it was pretty nice to see um my confidence growing and yeah something that I’ve been struggling with starting to improve and yeah I think that was that was the main thing it was just taking a positive experience and keeping with that rather than before it kind of felt like I’d see things in a negative way every time and didn’t really feel like anything was changing but kind of yeah seeing these positive experiences and and kind of making sure remember them and and take note of them and then carrying that on and yeah just kind of baby steps but yeah it was yeah it was good to to keep that progression going but I wouldn’t say there was anything anything special to it I think youve just got to put yourself in that mix and and just kind of yeah learn from it you you know be scared to fail and be scared to yeah just put yourself out of your comfort zone and that’s the only way you’re going to you’re going to get better so yeah that’s that’s kind of what I was just trying to do and it was good to see it happen yeah absolutely and I think that’s something which has actually maybe played a big role just that mentality of I’m just constantly improving I’m constantly putting myself out of my comfort zone and just going from one step to another and those sort of more is it more those sort of performance goals where you’re like right well today I’m just here to help support Stevie and actually just getting that win of I’ve supported stev as much as I can rather than like oh I need to win this stage or whatever I think even just throughout your whole sort of career up to date I think that seems like that’s one of the key traits your success is actually saying these are my performance goals I want to recover from my very big injury within six weeks I and then get back to racing I want to be able to then support these riders in my first year and then have the chance to then progress to them being one of those more leadership roles where you’re then going for those outcome goals but actually just taking those steps and sort of improving yourself every single day whether that’s in training or in racing as well does that sound about right yeah for sure like I’m big on the yeah you know the the process goals and the performance goals in in training and racing like I think you’re not always until you you’re winning races if you keep setting yourself those goals of you know the proper outcome goals of I want to win this race and every week you go there and you know you you’re not close to winning like if you don’t change that Outlook it’s going to get pretty negative pretty quickly and uh if you don’t find another way to frame success you’re not going to learn and I think uh yeah until you I mean even once you’re at the top level you still need these processing performance goals but yeah I think it’s a real nice way of of being able to progress and keep positive like if you aim too high all the time you’re just always going to feel like you’re failing um and you know over the long term if you keep setting these smaller process goals of you know whether it’s you know I’m going to complete every training session that I’ve been set for the next three weeks or whatever as a process goal or I’m going to stretch twice a week as a process goal like just hitting these smaller but achievable things they slowly add up and eventually that makes leading up to a big outcome goal way easier and you know you’re more likely to hit it um yeah I think you just got to look more longterm like it’s not going to it’s not going to come quickly it’s not going to come from from just saying you want to do it like you’ve got to yeah you’ve got to look at these day-to-day things that seem monotonous at the time but you know if you get all the basics right then eventually yeah you’re going to get there and it’s all about yeah learning from from each day and and the small wins that that keep you moving forwards rather than yeah just always aiming to the top and seeing that Gap still just huge you need to yeah slowly work your way up to it yeah absolutely and I think that’s then moving into your second year at at X um you then got a win very early on um Ronda P Blas PA Basque and um then also the third at GP Pierre pel I’m totally butchering all of these names but it’s fine I do too but yeah I think sort of that definitely seems to be where you’re you’re kind of cashing in on everything which you’ve invested in so far and actually saying to the team I’m able to do that leadership role like you said you’re doing this year and then being able to sort of invest in getting those wins and then being able to get that confidence then progress onto other wins as well does that sound about right yeah for sure um yeah we knew like I knew I was in I knew I was in good shape coming into the season I didn’t really plan to be um I actually planned to come into the season a bit slower this year um kind of progressed through it but yeah hit training camp and you know was seemed to be a real good weight in terms of race weight and uh yeah putting out some of the best powers that i’ that I’d ever done so it was like okay I’ve actually come into the season pretty hot um without without really supposing without having uh yeah I know what you’re saying AR coming out without try supposed to be high level there we go there we go yeah just lost words for a minute um yeah so got there and kind of thought right okay I’m you know one of these we had a few a few nice cards to play at these early season races with with me and Lou and clemont I think and uh yeah it was kind of a bit of a free roll like the first day it was three three races three race days in a row that weekend and um yeah the first day we we all made all three of us made the final selection and we’re we’re in the mix for the win and ended up with second with clemont but you know we were we had the most numbers in that group and we’re like okay we’re all you know we’re all at this level to win like we can we can get something out of this this weekend and yeah kind of same thing happened again the next day um I got in the early break I think I was I was in the move from from the first 10K and uh yeah then went on to to like a finisher kit of three laps at the camia and uh yeah it was kind of just sitting I was the only one from the team there but I was kind of playing a little bit of Poker just kind of you know not letting on how strong I was feeling and knew that I’d have you know the other two coming across at some point and we’d be back in the in the advantageous situation of having the numbers um so I was kind of doing my bit but not showing what I had and then eventually the others came over in in smaller groups over the next couple of climbs and then yeah just kind of saw my opportunity um I knew there’s a lot of strong climbers in the group and also a lot of fast guys so I was like you know I can kind of take this opportunity knowing that we have two other guys in the group and and went pretty far out attacked it I think over 40ks took one guy with me and then eventually dropped him on the on the final climb of G and yeah went went to the Finish solo and yeah it was It was kind of pretty I I didn’t believe it myself I I just it had been so long since I’d taken a win and to do it like that was was yeah I I just kind of shocked myself as well as I think kind of shock the team a little bit as well um yeah just to uh I yeah I just didn’t really didn’t really know what had happened and yeah it was just kind of pure emotion once I’ve finished I just remember like yeah just crying straight away after the Finish just pure kind of relief but you know after all these years I kind of finally felt like I was back to the potential that I thought I had and you know it it’ been a rough couple of years and yeah I feel like like it was nice for me to have that to have that win to kind of show myself that you know keep believing and keep working like I am doing and you know eventually things will pay off and yeah it was really nice to to have that payoff and yeah um a really good start to the season which yeah I’ve kind of carried on and you know from that taken taken a more of a leadership role in in quite a few races with the team um haven’t haven’t seen that success again yet this year um you know from I’ve had a few nice opportunities and a few nice results early on with you know a couple of top 10s another Podium as you mentioned but yeah just lacking that that last little bit um I don’t know whether that’s struggling to kind of cope with the mental side of being a leader and you know the extra stress that that takes and the bit of pressure like obviously it’s good pressure from the team like they know that I’m capable of winning races now and stuff but yeah I definitely felt like it kind of ramped up a little bit after that and the expectations were a bit higher and yeah it’s just another another thing I’m having to learn how to deal with and and overcome and yeah I think I felt like coming to the end of this first block of the year been pretty pretty taxed and felt felt pretty tired uh um a little bit of wanting to do too much as well like a little bit of of overtraining from from that early success wanting to progress on again and really kick things on and you know thinking okay this can be the year that I turn pro and and these opportunities are coming through and you know wanting to yeah wanting to make this this year count um but I think all of that’s taken a fairly big toll on on m m Mally and physically like it’s pretty draining going to every race and thinking right okay this is where I need to get another result this is where I need to get another result and yeah it’s something it’s a new thing I’m having to learn and manage and uh yeah I’m hoping I mean I’ve just had a had a mid-season break and I’m hoping that that little reset and going back into this second half of the season I can I can refine that and yeah manage it much better yeah I think to be honest it’s very common within a lot of guys are in your situation and even lower level down to you know the cat three four races that I’m doing it’s it’s exactly the same where when you know that you’re maybe you’re expected to be at that high level but then it’s just that kind of that constant pressure that that does just takes it takes something else another sort of another step up mentally to be able to actually just be able to perform which I think is something which I’m sure that in in a year or two you’ll look back and be like yeah this is completely like pivotal to my development as a writer but also just as a person to be able to just handle that stress of just that pressure really and I think actually many people go out go about it in different ways some people sort of work with sports sites to be able to to be able to sort of develop that mental resilience and I think for me I’ve seen that a lot of it was just you know again saying you know three four level in the UK compared to you know racing at a very much different but that I always had that mental pressure just put on myself by myself and I think for me just taking a step back you know I took a year off the bike last year where I dropped 80 watts in threshold which is a lot less than I thought to be honest I was like oh yeah I’m going to be doing like you know 250 threshold that’s that um but actually just having that like just the pressure off for me really really helped and I think that was just through my through me in my head and just saying like look I always wanted to kind of strive for more strive for more but that pressure I think is also beneficial I mean it’s going to sound really cringy but you know it does make those diamonds which I think is very much where where you’re going to be going and just being able to to keep pushing on as is something which actually is is so important and it does mean that you’re going to be able to step up whether it’s this year whether it’s next year whether it’s you know in the future I think absolutely that’s that’s where it is but yeah like that mental side recycling is is so so so challenging and I think it’s it’s something which isn’t so talked about and I think it is something which is going to be developed in the future as well and it’s actually that like all of the pressure of like you said the Sprint finishes and being able to have that confidence which just pays dividends you know you’ve got people who get one win I mean even take like Mark cenes for example you look at the tour what three years ago where he got that one win that then translated into three and it’s all of that just it’s in your head it’s just all of that confidence and it even yes for sure you know it Tri down to to yourself and even me where it’s like again that one win might mean that oh yeah I can do this again and then you’re then moving on into those sort of more leadership roles and actually that then means that maybe that is working with somebody to be able to develop that mental side of cycling or whether it’s just that confidence and knowing that actually I’ve got this huge Bank of evidence that I am really good and I am as good as I say that I am through training through team camps through chatting with people you know friends family Etc so saying like look I’m really really good and I can make this step up and I have got that through those wins and those races and just keeping hacking on I think is absolutely just required to be able to keep going really yeah for sure I mean that that pressure is there at every level and you know I think it only gets it only gets worse once you’ve once you’ve turned Pro so learning to deal with it now is super important I mean if you take example like EF um in the last relegation cycle like they were on the verge of being relegated and at that point if they got relegated the team wouldn’t exist anymore so like imagine imagine the pressure on the Riders there and having to still perform better than they were under that pressure it’s yeah that it’s there in every level and yeah as I say you’ve got to find a way to to deal with it and manage it and still get the best out of yourself and yeah I think it’s something something more that I’ve got to to learn to deal with um like I’ve been in quite a few High Press situations before in in racing and you know I think back to to euros on the track last year um like my first experience of a European championships on the track or like any major championships on the track and yeah going in for that team Pursuit ride like I remember I just didn’t sleep the night before just from the pure like we qualified fastest and I was in for the for the first round and knew you know we can be quicker than these and then go into the final and then I knew that the boys would would win the final um so it was kind of like I was I had a lot of negative thoughts thinking okay I’m going to be the the weak link here and I could be the one that unhinges the whole you know the whole shot at euros and yeah that was that was a big EXP experience for learning learning how to deal with pressure there and every yeah every aspect you you’re going to come across it every year and every situation so definitely something something as you say that that’s going to get more worked on I’m sure you know at a higher level you know psychologists and psychiatrists have got to be you know so so pivotal at that at that point yeah and I think you know that it plays into into every aspect of of sort of life in general you know for me more I put loads of pressure on myself with my degree and trying to basically get a first in my degree which was just you know nobody said you have to get first that was all from myself and just saying like look all of that pressure is just got to got to do it and that had some negative consequences some positive consequences you know it’s all of that sort of stuff and actually I think looking back and saying for you like I’ve done euros and I’ve we we won the European track Champs even with such pressure on yourself which I think is you know exactly that I think for me I find that when I look back and see how far I’ve come that is really helpful to myself to say it like like M you know I managed to get back to this level bearing when that I dropped 80 Watts last year you know I’m like oh yeah that’s pretty cool and I think you know it’s very similar like saying you know of one European track Champs I’ve come all the way up from under 16 level to Elites now you know high are you you must be last year you 23 now as well no I’ve still got another year another year so then saying like look yeah we can do this absolutely and I think it’s all that just pushing on I suppose I mean to be honest if I knew the answers I you know I don’t know where I’d be but you know yeah but yeah I think sort of um to to sort of wrap up here the last sort of question would be elite national champs last year sort of sixth in TT which is super cool um whereas this year it was then managing to get round national champs which firstly is a huge result so how was that yeah it was uh thankfully a bit of an easier course than last year um for last year yeah it was pretty pretty insane and and not yeah I think it was I can’t remember what it was I think three 40350 normalized for the first like hour and a bit until I got dropped um like can I made it until the point where uh the race kind of came back together and then restarted again and I just couldn’t get back in that restart and yeah it was a real demanding course but this year yeah same same place but just slightly slightly easier they took one of the climbs out and added a bit of a longer Loop in um which yeah made for a real real nice course actually like a good mix of bit of something for everyone and uh didn’t just mean that it was you know purely you know if you can climb well and and still get around you know four five hours of hard racing like it kind of opened it up to more people and yeah national champs is always always won like I always describe it as a world tour n be like it’s just full gas from the start and you got to be on the front foot and yeah I went in with that attitude I was kind of like I’d rather rather be in the front group and make it into the last hour of blow up and dnf then kind of just get round um or you know even just go full gas to try and make the front group not make it and then dnf like I wanted to to challenge myself and see how far I could get with the pros and you know hope y surprise myself and get get quite far um but yeah it ended up being like I was quite aggressive early on and gotten a few nice moves and uh yeah nearly made it into that into that front um then it all kind of came back together and and blew up again and yeah Miss went through a bit of a rough F patch missed the uh yeah missed the end group that ended up going all the way to the line um you know all the all the key guys have made it and yeah I was kind of in that group to that yeah it was a weird it’s always a weird situation once you’re in there everyone kind of looking at the world till guys that have missed it and they’re like I don’t care anymore like the race has gone I’m not I’m not here to race for 30th you know and uh yeah it’s a real weird dynamic but just trying to I don’t know keep whatever cohesion was going on and just actually keep rolling to one actually just make it home like it’s a pretty long race once everyone’s uh once everyone’s run out of gas so yeah it was it was another yeah real hard day but yeah happy to happy to have got around it like a lot of guys didn’t a lot of guys blew up and and didn’t um yeah didn’t get out of it what they wanted but I think um yeah not not exactly what I went for but um you know I can be happy that I committed fully to trying to get get ahead of the race and and get involved and uh yeah kind of show what I was about again but yeah you know a finishing in a race like that is still still not bad so yeah it’s a good experience and then sort of what’s coming up for you within the next sort of bits of the season so just kind of waiting waiting now for the for the calendar to come out um as of what’s planned in I’ve got like a nice Block in Italy in I’m not not sure about July yet we’re going to yeah we’re going to find out over the next over the next week or so um which races I’m getting put in for but then yeah in uh August I got quite a few one days in in Italy um some nice yeah UCI races with you know they’re pretty pretty big out there the the Italian under 23 U and yeah I went well in a few of them last year so hoping to hoping to back that up and yeah come into it with a yeah in hopefully better shape than last year and try and show a bit more of what I’m about and uh yeah try and yeah show some interest for for next year so yeah that’s that’s kind of what I’ve got planned for now and yeah it’s you know it’s still with a team like our it’s still pretty changing and you know with who dips in form or you know injury crashes whatever like it’s quite quite fluid the the selections for races so yeah just kind of getting back into good shape after the break and and being ready for whatever I get put in for really and want to attack it in the best best way I can so yeah nice well good luck for the rest of your season and thank you so much for sitting down with me um yeah thanks for having me yeah Cheers Cheers