In which Dan talks with Laura England, an IB teacher who’s done a ton of thinking about projects and what they mean for student learning. They talk about what we mean by ‘project’, process vs product, and why establishing a classroom culture of good questions is so important. As always we welcome comments on Twitter @BigIdeaEd
Today’s episode of what’s the big idea is brought to you by process you know that old saying it’s not the destination it’s the journey while this isn’t always true I mean really it’s Hawaii not the flight to Hawaii that counts in education the journey is Central to the experience especially now with education
So disrupted emphasizing process and deep thinking about it is needed more than ever process check it out now on to the show Hair’s always turn when she walks back a little flavor and a step of sparkl thanks for checking out what’s the big idea I’m your host Dan Carney if you’ve been in education for more than say 2 minutes you’ve heard about seen assigned or Taken part in projects
Project is one of the most ubiquitous terms in schools so much so I would argue that it’s become a word that means everything and nothing at the same time there’s a vast Continuum of actions that constitute projects ranging from Single Day activities pulled from a textbook or Teachers Pay Teachers that ape
Meaningful learning all the way to full-blown project based learning in which the very idea of projects is intertwined in the school’s philosophy well most of us operate somewhere in the middle tinkering with different project designs and outcomes and that tinkering has taken on a new urgency as most of us have moved
Into some form of distance learning or remote learning or whatever your school calls it something that looks like it’s not ending anytime soon so to get some perspective on this I reached out to Laura England A Lang and literature teacher at the UN International School in Hanoi Vietnam
And an experienced IB leader thinker and writer as we talked about projects it quickly became apparent that what we were really talking about was deep process-based learning in which the skills of the process self-management metacognition collaboration are just as important as the content and discipline skills in Laura’s classroom projects are
Not a thing her students do they are embedded in the very DNA of the classroom project then is just a standin for that very thing so many of us strive for a culture of deep thinking sure so um hi um I am Laura I am a teacher at the United Nations
International School of Hanoi uh previously I’ve spent the past eight years working in Darwin Australia where I’ve held multiple different roles of um myp coordinator personal project coordinator I think I’ve been a head of Faculty for most subjects that have just needed it’s be more of a needs-based um
But most importantly um a teacher that’s where it really is where the passion meets um the practicality of what I guess the whole purpose of our role is in the classroom and this year I’ve returned entirely to the classroom and a whole new school new country and learning lots of different approaches
But in addition I also have co-authored the personal project and the community project skills for success book um and I also work as part of a panel for the eight leadership team in Australia great and I’d love to get to uh a bit about the NP and all your work with the
Community and personal projects but I thought we could start by uh sort of defining some of the terms here uh because project is as I as I wrote to you when I was pitching this interview project is such a big word in education it can mean sort of everything and
Nothing at the same time so I guess I’d want to start by asking you what does project mean to you project to me means agency so when I think about my role as a teacher I understand that I am preparing students that I’m meeting them where they’re at right now but my
Primary goal is to help students be self-aware as Learners to learn to self- advocate and to learn to self-manage and so a project is a way that I can place the students in the driving in the driver’s seat of their actual learning and create a cycle or a project element
In which they can begin to self-manage their way through and within that you embed your skills your content your conceptual ideas but it’s in such a way that you have this really flexible classroom approach and so some students are able to extend themselves further others need extra support and so
Therefore within that project realm they have a really clear goal to achieve the goal varies from child to child but it’s a way of actually creating a classroom environment where students Drive they reflect they self assess and they very much are partners with me and obviously a community Mentor as much as
Possible in that process so a lot of what you’ve just described I think has a fair amount of overlap with what many in education would refer to as Project based learning yeah but it’s not the same thing project and pbl are not too interchangeable terms could you talk a little bit about
That why we should be careful about not saying project and project-based learning interchangeably I think Project based learning and I’m correct me if I’m wrong it’s very much the way a system is set up in a school and so if you as a school have a project based learning approach
And that is your how you would call your art and your science of delivering the content of having students in the driver’s seat it would be really integrated and so I think the best model for that is the High-Tech high school and that incredible documentary um most likely to
Succeed really is the Crux of pbl but it’s very much a system approach whereas the projects is more what the teacher is able to drive within the classroom um and they can obviously stretch across multiple disciplines um but it’s much smaller and much more contained I think than an
Actual Project based learning approach sure yeah and and a project really does depend on you know it’s really your relationship with your students in your classroom um how you’ve created a culture of thinking and a culture of ownership of learning um and it varies from subject
To subject and I think that’s one of the key elements when it comes to the project approach is that we have lots of different especially in the myp you know we have eight distinct disciplines um and so therefore you have your solution Focus subjects your design
And then you have process Focus which is very much where I sit in the language literature it’s all the pro the um that very much that process focused element and so therefore you have your public and your personal projects as well sure yeah the um the buck Institute of
Education which is one of the leaders in pbl they sort of described um pbl as the main course whereas a project is dessert uh there’s sort of this clear delineation but yet many of the things that pbl Advocates call for are what you’ve already mentioned things like authenticity student voice
Reflection how do you go about how do you recommend teachers go about preparing students to succeed in a project because as you pointed out a project is not simply take the content we’ve just studied and package it for me so how do you how do you advise teachers
Go about preparing students to succeed in a project absolutely and so I think I think one of the best things that have come out of the past 20 years of education is the whole idea of an inquiry cycle knowing that you have this cycle of Engagement that’s really
Interactive and you need to iterate and create and have the opportunities to fail and learn from failure and so I think if you’re setting up a project in your class firstly know that it is going to be really hectic um it’s going to be very busy a
65 minute lesson will be over within a clip you get to the end you think oh my goodness it’s done but I think what you need to have is a clear goal but knowing that your goal is going to look very different for each child so I give an
Example uh right now our grade seven language litery students are engaging in a media study and so we’ve given them the the goal of creating a media text production and our whole focus is that media we’re focusing on the joy right now we figure the world is so Bleak we
Need to just have this focus on Joy and laughter um and how we can use it as a tool and so we’ve put together a cycle where students begin to engage with inquiry and Analysis they develop ideas they create a product and they evaluate the product and so they’re going to set
A goal they’re going to create a target audience and they’re going to begin to explore what makes this target audience laugh how can I communicate a really important issue but at the same time bring a humorous approach and they’re going to be interviewing members of that particular target audience and then
Developing their ideas using those um stylistic features and then developing the product and then evaluating through surveys and real world connections but it takes time it’s going to take up the next four weeks of school and we’re going to have that four weeks where it’s about the
Students are going to drive and I put together little Gant charts or campon boards um so it’s very much the visual approach in the classroom of where we’re at and the students can also put an alert you know Miss England right now I’m here I need some help at this point
So it really is about the students driving following the different Cycles driving the Cycles but also being able to say actually I need help from this person this person um and then as as a teacher I set up these different points of communication reflection and they have a
Self assessment a peer assessment A Teacher Assessment with me as well within that process so it’s about having a really clear goal a really clear cycle with which the students can work within and also knowing that some will just be amazing and others will really struggle
But that’s where we as teachers nor our students and that we begin to help and guide and step in when we need to sure and and what’s your what’s your elevator pitch for a project like this to an administrator or a parent um because you have so much going on you know the
Inquiry cycle this very um reminds me a lot of cat Murdoch’s work and um and there there’s so much going on in that cycle that when you have time to really digest it it’s really rich but how would you sort of summarize the the meaning of a project to somebody who um maybe
Skeptical or wants a a a quick uh short sound bite of sorts about what you’re doing in the classroom let me think about this because we have so many varied parent voices some yes don’t have enough of this you know why is my child you others are going oh my gosh um
So what I would tell a parent or someone who is concerned I would say that this is about your child at the center it is about your child learning to have a voice learning to self-manage learning to be organized which as parents I know is the number one struggle in distance learning right
Now is that parents families are either really organized and just having a fantastic distance learning time or they’re not po projects really are about students learning to be organized and learning to transfer and apply the skills and knowledge they have learned and really if there’s no transfer application what’s the point yeah um And and you’re describing most of what you’re describing here is what might be called soft skills um cat Murdoch’s learning assets the ib’s approaches to learning so as you approach it setting up a project a really meaningful project and you’ve got content you’ve got skills you’ve got Concepts and you’ve got all
Those learning assets how do you how do you balance how do you approach it in a way that you can find balance among all those things I think we’re fortunate in the myp because we have every subject has their four Criterion or four objectives and they actually follow a
Really beautiful approach in themselves so you tend to begin with your knowledge and understanding your development of ideas your communication your reflection so every subject follows this sort of guide so we are really fortunate and that we can simply take those objectives align we follow the national curriculum
For Australia um I know there’s a common Cor in America and so if you have a really clear alignment and your curriculum has a clear goal in terms of these are our objectives this is where the students will need to go here is the alignment of the standards and it’s not
Cluttered look at what is necessary not what is just there the first thing we tell schools and we visit them is the curriculum is there but it’s not thing to be covered it’s to be explored it’s to be really creatively embedded into how you teach um that’s that teacher
Agency autonomy about how it’s going to be delivered in the classroom and so we are really fortunate that we have those objectives that drive our cycle and so we’ll often times have a project aligned around inquiry and Analysis developing analysis skills knowledge understanding from there transferring that to developing ideas
And organizing our ideas to creating an actual text and all at the same time developing really complex and sophisticated language skills so I think for us in the myp we are really fortunate because it’s created for us to just simply embed within the classroom um but I know that I work with
Schools who are not in the same position as us and so we’ve just encouraged them to look at what works for your students what can you draw a distinction here between process and product in a in a project and what are the strengths and weaknesses of each and and where do you
Find your focus falling absolutely so for so for example I’ve been a design teacher for the past seven years the product really is that point of a solution for a particular target audience and in the NP it’s all about service and where I am right now it’s all about the
SGS the product is obviously what we’re really working towards because it serves a genuine need for somebody or a community of people and so the process is what allows us to arrive there whereas for language and literature I know that my focus really is on creating beautiful pieces at the end of our
Project but it is a whole different writing process as well a mentor text process um and so for me very much the process is everything it really is um absolutely everything from developing inquiry questions to setting a goal at the beginning to engaging students in that constant reflective process developing
Those metacognitive skills of thinking about my thinking so I know how I’m learning and know how to improve my learning um and I think the best author that I’ve looked at so far in terms of process of a product is Austin Cleon um so his books I think I got on
My shelf there so still like an artist keep going and show your work those three ticks in terms of understanding the importance of the process over the product um but also knowing the product at the end can be really beautiful it can also fail and that’s
Okay yeah why is that why is it okay if it fails in the end oh look I think some of the best personal projects we’ve looked at so just to context the personal project is what every single child creates at the end of the myp so your and it’s a nine-month process where
They independently outside of school pull together all the different subject areas to create an actual product some of the products I have some of the actual projects and the language we use is not so much there’s the product is mentioned once in the whole cycle because it is all about the
Process and one of my students um actually sadly he’s passed away but one of my students he created a um a skateboard ramp and at the end it did not work out it was actually quite dangerous um but what he learned in the process and his teachers were able to say
That understanding mathematical Concepts he could apply it to this passion that he had and his knowledge understanding just grew his communication skills in terms of communicating with a different kinds of groups of people so there was the O ands group and there were the his friends there were his parents group the
Different community members of the D of the D city council all these skills that he had to develop simply made him into the learner that he needed to be in order to reach those final two years of school but the product itself it was was a bit of a was
Quite but what he learned in the process and what he became as someone who was so much more independent and so much more confident and aware of how he learns it was just everything it really was and and that student growth talk a bit about that what kind
Of student growth you see um you know regardless of what the product turns out to be what kind what sorts of changes do you see in students as you say that they’re ready to move on to the next level um what do you see from your students I think the first the first
Point is confidence um I think sometimes our approaches to educ ation uh remove confidence with students um if they don’t achieve those top marks their confidence drops and so they have confidence in their own abilities but I think the number one element and I can speak to this in my
Own personal life there were many years in my life where I did not have any sense of agency over my own actions over who I was as a person when I began to develop those particular skills for self-management reflection taking little steps and having little goals one every day you begin to
Identify you know who you know what is my identity as a learner who am I in terms of my classroom setting my school setting my community setting and then from there there’s the ability to really speak up for oneself and to understand that I’m responsible for my own learning is the most
Important step um and I know that coming from distance learning right now I know every country in the school is in this boat at the moment the students are having to actually take genuine ownership and what they’re becoming as Learners is phenomenal yes so let’s let’s transition now to remote learning
Distance learning whatever um the school’s calling it what’s what’s the place of projects in this learning environment with so much uncertainty with uh oftentimes predetermined units kind of going out the window um where do projects fit into this oh everywhere everywhere um so I can just give an
Example so we have just finished 13 weeks of distance learning um and for us it was a little bit different because for the first six weeks we wouldn’t find out until Friday 6: PM when the Hanoi People’s Party would determine whether or not school would open or not and so
We really had six weeks of do we return and it was really uncertain and then all of a sudden we had a complete Nationwide lockdown and therefore it was okay we most likely aren’t going back until next school year and so what we did is we were already we’d already started a unit
That was looking at literary context within the lens of self-expression and the whole idea is that within different context writers Express themselves through characters often in setting to generate change and that was sort of our big idea and so what we did we didn’t change our curriculum um outcomes that
Was still being met um and our head of school had very clearly communicated to our parent community that we are simply transitioning to an online platform it would be a rigorous approach to learning and we expect everyone to be on board and so she set a really clear goal from
The beginning which was great we could just follow it um so what we did is we decided that students we sort of surveyed our students um in our sort of synchronous lessons where we had them online and we see you know how you know what are you finding
The most enjoyable aspect of distance learning and they all said we love that we can choose how we organize our day and so we said okay well how would you like to choose how you organize your actual learning as well and they said yeah you know we would love to give it
Give it a shot on the distance learning platform and so what we created was actually a six week it was called a self-expression folio and the whole idea is that students we created a playlist of the different text types they could use and then they could also have a chat
And say Miss England I actually prefer this one can I try a different approach can I add to this so it was really conversation based and you know online platforms provide so many opportunities for that um and so what we did is we had there to create three oh sorry four
Self-expression folio pieces they were small folio pieces we set them up with a writing partner in the actual class who could be a buddy and a mentor and guide their process and it also meant that our students in Italy um who are really isolated right now could have that communication and
Our students who have not left their home and not left their home for a month could have that communication Point um and so students were able to engage in a six- week process with four different um tentative deadlines we call them tentative deadlines because they could negotiate with us and they created these
Beautiful folio pieces that were in element of self-expression and they would engage each folio piece we go through a self assessment and reflection process with a peer and with myself as a teacher and then our synchronous lessons where we had them all online in a zoom meeting
Were really about you know let’s share our work let’s share the mental text we’ve discovered and let’s simply use this opportunity as a community to help each other to provide encouragement and support um and to critique one another’s process and that was a six week project that
Resulted in some of the most beautiful work we’ve seen and it also meant that we could engage the parent community so a lot of our students were interviewing their grandfathers who fought in the um what’s called the American war here a lot of them were interviewing members of their Community about um you
Know you know what does it mean to be Buddhist from a s in a a Korean perspective and so it was really Community um involved and I simp made a website and the website was here is our process work with it with these sensitive guidelines and in constant
Communication um so that was a really successful project where the students created a website at the end of it where they could exhibit to the community and their families and what they created what kind of uh classroom Norms need to be established for this to be successful I one thing I’ve talked about
Frequently with my own colleagues is we’re really grateful that this happened if it had to happen at the end of the year when we’ve been able to establish routines and cultures what you’re describing is a pretty rich culture of reflection metacognition so what what kind of work goes into establishing that
In a classroom throughout the year I think the first thing I will always establish in a classroom and I I love the language is that questions are a thing of humility amongst us and questions enable us to be be a community of Learners the first thing you must do
Is establish my classroom is a community and that we all have equal voice I think that is the most important aspect um and the the work that I particularly appreciate in terms of developing those classroom Norms is the work of Dr Christopher emden uh in his book for
White folks who teach in the hood it’s one of the most fantastic books to read in terms of how to develop a classroom culture and obviously international schools it’s a little bit different because you have so many different um cultures in one class you have 20 different nationalities and they all bring their
Particular um cultural norms with them but everyone wants to have a voice everyone wants to be listened to and everyone wants to contribute and so then also building in the fact that I like to create little literature literature circles for my classroom as well well so you have your small groups
Where students begin to really develop that sense of critiquing the work of others speaking on small groups and developing a sense of voice and agency over how they’re going to be learning and communicating then embedding as well constant points of reflection so we I love the um the two stars one wishing
Routine it’s on the board at all times and so basically Ally everything is about two stars one wish or two glows one grow and using the language of next steps um everything is the next step there’s always the next step and I think so much of your classroom culture and
Norms comes down to the language that we use with our students um and when we’re stressed and overwhelmed it could be tricky and which is where a lot of us are with distance learning it was I’ll be honest it was extremely stressful it was very very stressful
Um but if you create that culture from the beginning you can have a really successful time with your students a lot of this the soft skills we might say or the approaches to learning obviously deeply embedded in your classroom and and earlier you framed the project uh one of your
Example projects as definitely built on an idea or a big Central concept rather than content do you get any push back back ever um you’re not teaching enough content there’s not enough uh knowledge this is not knowledge Rich enough do you ever get those kind of complaints well I
Think no I haven’t because a concept driven curriculum is a way in which to organize and I think one of the big um misunderstandings around inquiry based and concept driven learning is that content takes a a back seat whereas it’s not true because in order to fully
Understand a conceptual idea you need to have sound content knowledge and sound skill knowledge and so the same way we organize a project is the same way we organize those conceptual ideas and that the the concepts I I love to use it in terms of it’s like a defiling cabinet in the
Brain and so we can store away knowledge and then I can transfer it to this part of my learning and then oh my goodness it goes to this subject as as well and so it’s and I think I’m fortunate in that I work with a team of I think
Basically might think one of my colleagues has not had some sort of IB leadership um and so we’ve got we’re fully fully entrenched yeah and what is that concept-based learning process and for those who are new to it the work of um Julie stern oh my goodness I mean she really
One of the most Inc and I know your podcast was just oh fantastic was brilliant yeah she’s she’s great she she’s she’s a great job of taking all that um theoretical and making it so practical for teachers very practical absolutely but I think it’s well it’s knowing that there’s a balance
Of it all when we are balanced in our planning and balanced in our back by Design we can pull together all the competing factors and create something really purposeful for our students but it does require teacher autonomy it requires teacher Crea ativity um and a lot of reflection in
The process and so as you teach you’re constantly reflecting and reflecting should just be this conversation that goes on all the time yeah yeah I definitely want to Echo the uh the teacher autonomy element I think those of us that are blessed with administrations that give us that uh
They get the best out of us U we talk a bit about Community Connection you mentioned that earlier um students finding collaborators or uh mentors in the community why is that such an important part of a project I think we can connect back the whole a of content they often are the
Experts they have the expert knowledge and so they are able to really help in terms of the nitty-gritty of students questions um and they come in all forms and I think as well it’s knowing that we know from a policy perspective when a school is set up with the teacher student and parent
Partnership as this triangulated necessity for a su for successful learning you are successful it’s when there’s the isolation so if you add that fourth element of a mentor it’s just so much more powerful because you give the students this whole another layer of expertise that they can actually draw
From but also know that it hasn’t got to be an actual physical person so the idea of a mentor text and so in our online world there is so much that students can access in order to gain expertise and knowledge yeah I often I’m every week I am
Learning new tech skills from the students in terms of how to find information yeah they are out in front of us on that one definitely um and I think as well it connects students very much to that I hate to use it because you know I hate
The word the real world and I hate using that word our students live often times more real world than what we do but it really is that connection that takes the classroom beyond the classroom and they understand that what they’re learning is essential for every element of
Society yeah it is interesting that why are we learning this that piece is so often skipped over and and school begins to take on such an artificiality uh and when you can clearly Define it in terms of the uh real world quote unquote it really it becomes more
Powerful definitely and I think is what depends on the like I I’ve come from I’m in the position now where I have small I have a small class and I feel quite guilty even saying this because I know what so many of my peers around the
World have um I’ve come from me a class of you know 28 29 where I’ve had to work really hard to engage a vast majority and i’ had to really justifying and this is why we’re learning what we’re learning and I’ve had to work so hard hard at getting their interest and
Pulling them into the actual learning and making sure that tasks are really emotionally rich and making sure that our classroom has that whereas now I’m in a position where I have a classroom of 20 and there is a culture of learning that I it’s incredible um and so the real world
Connections no but the the community the reality connections the are so important to both sections but you have to work harder at some to arrive at that point um and it depends on the different society that you’re in the different culture the community but either way that connection
Is very important yeah sure yeah yeah it’s interesting with class sizes and it seems to be one of those things that everyone knows is important and a lot of us lot of school districts can’t seem to do anything about it so we’re in this moment Now with uh
School to school year winding down and the next big question is what will the next school year look like and it does seem like at least on some level if not a big level distance and remote learning will continue in the fall um what what advice would you give a school or a
Department who wants to go into the next school year fresh maybe rethink some things try some new things and wants to do some authentic projects what are what are sort of your your first three or four steps where do they start okay I think one of the best the best
Learning goals the best learning outcomes I achieved as a result of the global Online Academy for learning distance learning is very different to the classroom and so firstly distill the core skills and content that you want the students to arrive at to its most simple form anything that’s not essential get
Rid of it because the truth is 3 hours a day for a middle school or even an early high school student at home that can be sufficient it actually can be sufficient um to still what you want them to achieve as a clear backwards by Design goal from there break it down
Into its conceptual organiz within a conceptual idea so students can really begin to develop that sense of organizing what they’re learning within conceptual ideas Julie Stern’s wonderful progression of conceptual idea is a great point to start and then I think the next step is to use the text skills that you have to
Flip elements of the actual instruction that you would normally have embed it within a cycle and also and be prepared for the fact that you will you will reach the goal but there are a couple of points in the Middle where you will feel a bit like oh I’m losing traction here I
Don’t know what’s going on here but that’s okay because if you continue with that constant conversation with the students you’ll get to that end point so it’s about clear goals what do you need what do the students need to know and allowing them the opportunity to have a voice and so using Google
Forms as a point of voting for how you’re going to engage in a par particular element students love that they instantly own it um they’ve had a voice and there’s a democratic element here and they can then be really they can then partner in that process but I think it’s about
Distilling Clarity of goals and engaging students in an actual process well Laura I want to thank you so much for joining me today I really enjoyed this conversation so much for my listeners to think about no thank you thank you for the opportunity it’s been it’s been [Laughter]
Wonderful big thanks to Laura for that conversation a couple of things that stood out to me number one though Laura is an IB practitioner everything she spoke about is applicable to everyone we spoke specifically about the IB soft skill list something they call the approaches to learning I encourage you
To check those out they’re very detailed and will give you a lot of good ideas and Cat Murdoch’s assets for learning are also Stellar number two Laura made it clear at the beginning that she does not consider herself a Project based based learning teacher but upon closer
Examination much of what she is doing aligns perfectly with highquality pbl for more on that check out the gold standard at pblworks dorg for a succinct and Powerful breakdown it largely Echoes Laura’s words all right thanks for listening everyone as always we welcome comments and questions on Twitter at big
Idea Ed check us out next time and what’s the big idea always German she walks by a little flavor and a step of Sparkle in her Smile talk about a man she ain’t got time she knows just what she wants out of this life when she was a little girl on her daddy’s
Knee he tell her she was smart and a princess of his Queen everything he her she