This is a continuation of the above session on Monday 15th January 2024.
The focus of this session is on Professor Emmanuel sharing data on this important topic and the questions and discussions that followed.
If you would like to see similar discussing in the future do email us with any suggestions at@ hello@waca.org.uk
Place to try and progress this and what I’m presenting is the issues that part of which touch upon why it was impossible to make some Headway but actually the opportunity I don’t want this to be a situation where we just look at our problems endlessly but we can’t actually build upon anything
Unless we understand where we’re coming from and for me the particular issue and the reason I think when I met Clive previously was this issue that in uh the equality space we don’t talk about anti-blackness we talk about putting black and Asian people together in one homogeneous lump and thinking that
Addresses things when actually uh it does exactly the opposite of that it actually helps to put blankets and conceal the truth so for me it is pretty fundamental to address anti-blackness if you’re serious about trying to improve uh equity and inclusion and the first thing I would say and I apologies if
You’ve heard this me say this before is that it isn’t a a freak it isn’t an accident uh that black and Asian people are at the bottom of any societal pyramid um it isn’t the an accident it isn’t a chance occurrence it isn’t a bad manager it isn’t a broken HR process it
Isn’t a a single individual who’s discriminated against all of that happens all of those things are true but what it actually is and the reason it happens year upon year upon year in every sector not just health is because the system is built that way the reason
We are where we are in society putting aside the odd individual token who gets who climbs above the parit the reason we as a people are where we are is because the system keeps us where it is where we because that’s how it survives so it
Isn’t the Bad Apple and the tree it’s the problem is the tree the system is what’s broken and that’s what we need to remember at all times as I said I come from this from the perspective of data because that’s I think the way in which
We need to make progress you can’t solve a problem with data alone but I don’t think you can solve it without data and the NHS has this annual staff survey completed by about 3/4 of a million people every year um and what it tells us is that if you experience
Discrimination the most likely way which which you experience discrimination is based on the color of your skin um more than discrimination by gender or by sexual orientation or disability the one that increases year upon year such that nearly half the people who experience discrimination in NHS it’s based on
Ethnicity 48% of the latest survey this is eye watering okay so we have in our Health Service something like one in four of our people uh who look after us are black or Asian uh and um a half of them experienc discrimination uh or reported on an annual basis that should
Make us alarmed but this isn’t this isn’t isolated to healthcare why would it be we live in a deeply anti-black Society specifically anti-black and I’ll talk about this in a second and it may make some colleagues that you speak to uncomfortable and in presenting this
Data it isn’t meant to as I say make us system from the custodial deaths and you will see that me having to draw any numbers to this the huge disparity there is if you’re a black person in custody that lives the likelihood of dying compared to other ethnicities not just that but actually
The chances of being stopped and being put into custody is way higher if you black as you can see from that um third pair of bar charts and the long this um especially if you’re black in a metropolitan area and I know this is is uh Northwest London that would certainly
Be included you can see this proportionality without me going through this line by line just the visual of the graph tells you the story of what black people on the street experience and you know this but this is puts context to those numbers it’s not just Justice it’s
Not just Health it’s also in uh University um non-continuation means people being asked to stop their degree and you can see how much higher it is for blacks and other ethnicity uh people who don’t get to continue and complete their degree just have been given the highest uh highest degrees first and uh
Upper second degrees it’s lowest for black people these are students who were good enough to get into University remember okay there’s no quota system in this country they were good enough to get in but they were way less likely to get firsts or 21 degrees the Chan then
Using that degree to go into high employment and the third panel is less for black people again as you can see so at every every every level of this we are discriminated against and all of that inevitably results in the inaccurately we see in income so if you
Look at the solid bars for white people in the blue bars on the left compared to the Indian Community u in green and then for black Caribbean black African people you can see what it looks like in terms of income that’s the first the solid bars if you look at wealth which is
Basically house ownership car ownership shares and all that kind of stuff it’s way less it’s down even further than that so those bars become really really dis um the disparities really Amplified uh if you look at uh wealth not just income so this is a deeply inequitable
Society that we must accept anyone who argues about that it isn’t oh it’s all immigrants well that just ain’t true either um this is people’s preference this is subjective everything else was objective that I’ve shown you this is subjective data asking people how they felt about uh immigration to this
Country this is a very recent survey at the end of last year um and saying if they came from Australia France Etc and you can see what they didn’t like was black people they didn’t like people from Nigeria coming particularly we should allow none of those or alow the
Smallest number it’s way less uh compared to say Australia which is a nice um friendly wide country of course um and health too okay your likelihood this is data from a friend and colleague of mine Sheila Kliff um just looking at the likelihood of being employed uh all
The data is shown is normalized for white people as one so the likelihood is one for white people and you can see that if you are black the purple bars it is lowest at the various bands for nursing and um for doctors um so this is something which the impact and and
That’s one of the my big objections certainly in the NHS and wider we present dat talking about so-called BME or B or other other acronym they use I it we can’t talk like that when you come to thinking about how we use data to take action forward because if you do
You lump everyone together and you miss out the reality of what’s happening to black people and that’s why one of the reasons why I believe that uh this focus on anti-black discrimination needs to be at the top of the agenda rather than something we think of oh well must also
Include it as part of everything else um in healthcare so in this set of graphs this is from the staff survey year on year on year um looking at the chances of progressing through your career on the left hand panel and on the right hand panel of experiencing
Discrimination and you can see in the left hand the red line for black people is the lowest in other words the lowest chances of career progression and uh in terms of experiencing discrimination it’s the highest for black people in the red line up there so we’ve got to
Understand and for most other it’s people who are are in most of these things as regarded as second generation um um colleagues so again often black so so that other kind of purpley red bar is also illustration of how this is a particular issue around the color of
Your skin and the darker it is the more trouble you’re in in terms of health care and the question then comes up is well how about you know Medics are different if you’re a doctor you’re different and this is not a ple for doctors doctors don’t need a special
Case made for them but the point I want to make with this set of data now is that even if you’re a doctor if you’re black it is inequitable so this is the rate of passing exams so you’ve been good enough to get into University you’ve been good enough to pass your
Exams you’ve been good enough to get through postgraduate working you know sit and postgraduate exams and if you’re black you’re still less likely to pass these are allegedly objective exams but of course they aren’t um because this can’t be an accent this can’t just be a freak this is every medical exam in
Every speciality and it’s year on year year so this isn’t just a a freak bogus result the data says this is truly systematized whatever Trevor Phillips or other people like that ilk and whatever reports they produce for the soal cred report from SE it’s all nonsense how can
You look at this kind of figure and the data I’ve shown you and say that we don’t have an institutionalized problem in us even in healthcare and they say oh well you but that that could be just class just say the doctors who came from a lower social economic class that
Weren’t passing their exams well this is the lie for that so this is the day I’m sorry this is complicated but I think it’s really worth understanding people say to you or because of black people experience disadvantage but actually once they get into the system they’re okay this data shows the data for
Deprivation and those of you in healthcare and others will know that this using a five five brackets where the least deprived are are in the um are in the de quintile um um five and the most deprived IR deprivation quintile 1 so um the darker the bars uh the less
Deprivation you have and you can see that yeah it’s true uh that black people have the greatest levels of deprivation you know over half in deprivation classes one and two so maybe saying well that’s actually ARG argue against what he said Anton because you know maybe that’s what explains why Pass rates are
Low but this is the key figure I want to show you now which is that if you are a black person from the least disadvantage group I quinal 5 um if you can see my cursor shaping up there that still puts you at a pass rate which is lower than a
White person from the most deprived quintile one so your pass rated quintile 5 for a black person is about 66% 67% and for a white person in quintal 1 the lowest it’s about 77% it’s still 10% difference so so this is more than just social this is something specific about
The color of your skin and God forbid you have a color of your skin and a funny accent in word commas okay so that’s the point that this graph makes and I I’m I stress this and I apologize I’m stressing it because when you deal with this you hear so much nonsense and
So many people quoting maliciously wrong deliberately intentionally uh uh corrupt data this is the data that comes from our learned Society and from the government itself um so let’s think about this now in healthcare we are I think if we get ourselves together you know we’re not we’re not too far away
And certainly if I believe if we were in America we would have had a class action by now now we don’t call them class actions in the UK but what I’ve just done here is just for the last three months just gone through the data of
What there is in the public eye this is not even what I know of elsewhere that’s going through the courts now but this is what’s currently been published about what’s been going on there and this is just three months worth of data okay this is this colleague you can see the
Picture of there is the only black uh chief executive of a Health Board in this country the only one okay um she’s the only black cohesion person in that so you know 330,000 black and Asian people in the NL service there’s only one who’s deemed good enough to be the
Chief executive of a inter integrated care board and even she talks about being treated like a a junior nurse um we are really not that far away from this this is a huge prevalent problem in our society as my my focus is primarily in healthcare so that’s where I’m
Talking about so I’m going to ignore that part and and I want to mention one other thing that people will often throw in our face when we start talking about anti-blackness and they’ll often say oh but you know we’re focusing on just Blackness or just on race is you you you
Don’t you don’t think by intersectionality well you know what these people don’t understand something and I hope probably most of you are educated and know this and apologize if I’m telling you something you know but the whole idea of the term of intersectionality was coined by a black American woman um because
Specifically in America at that time if you had a case to bring against your employee of discrimination against your employer sorry of discrimination you couldn’t bring it if you’re a black woman as a black person uh and a black woman you have to bring it either as a
Woman or as a black person you couldn’t bring it as that and she said perfectly reasonably actually the experience of being a black woman is a whole lot worse than being a black man then being a white woman then being a white man and so the H idea of intersectionality was
Coined by kimaw as a way of understanding this and putting that into um into understanding but then we have idiots uh uh like lots of our po not just this idiot who talk about um this being a problem as about inter they talk inter seity to make it as though
Actually just focusing on Race means you’re ignoring women’s struggles you’re ignoring race uh disability discrimination or relig not at all we’re not doing any of that uh actually um but it’s their argument and actually the reality is that if you what this data shows is that if you’re disabled and
Black which is that Top Line soon as you become black or Asian and disabled your likelihood of being is double whereas all the other things disabled and woman disabled and a religious minority disabled and sexual orientation which is not straight all of those things the numbers are the same in those two
Columns but disabled an ethnic minority there you see that doubling so this is a really important point to make and and so for years and years people have talked about intersectionality incorrectly and they’ve just looked at data as some sort of static problem they’ve spent actually spend the time
Saying either arguing the data doesn’t exist or if it’s there just admiring the data and saying oh we really must do better and that’s what that’s that’s the problem we have we need to do something quite quite different because if we look at the data the data tells us that in
The Health Service things have stayed the same I don’t want to go through this line by line but basically we brought more and more black and Asian people in you know nurses from Zimbabwe and Nigeria and Philippines and India bring them in huge numbers we then get them
Stuck so that actually we’re now about 24% of our staff I said a quarter of our staff are black or Asian in London it’s in in sort of Watford I know very well because I used to live in uh in har um it’s um it’s a population of it’s about
52% of our our staff um are black and Asian uh but nationally is 24% but when it comes to very C Im so called vsn positions it’s only 10% and if you look at black black staff it’s it’s way way below that of that 10.2% it’s about 2 %
Vsms who are black um and all of these all of these things the changes have been glacial so even when there is data there isn’t change so I said earlier on you know you need dat to to make change but this makes the point that data on
Its own doesn’t make change if you want to actually make change you need data and some s sort of accountability structure you need people to have to do it because people aren going to do it because they love you then that’s the reality of all this even though it’s illegal to discriminate people
Discriminate even though it’s immoral non-moral imoral to discriminate they discriminate okay the only way in which you make this possible to change is either if you punish people for not doing it or if you make a financial bottom line better that’s the other thing that happens okay so those are the
Two most powerful motivators for changes of behavior and you know big organizations like the NHS are every bit as vulnerable to those nudgers as anyone else Finance or personal threat to Executives is what changes things so in the NHS and I this is what I began to do in England but it became
Un impossible to do it U because there’s a change of culture and a whole governmental change to Drifting towards a very right-wing agenda was mirrored by the senior people in anes England which is why I took my resignation and left and I now work in Welsh government
Which is a much more appetite to do this but there were things we could do and so this is the kind of message of hope I hope that I can begin to just sort of spell out a bit you got to use data to actually break it down I made that point
Probably to distraction Now by identifying the situation as different for black people versus other ethnic minorities and when we did that in England we can see what happens here so if you look at these bars what we’ve shown you here is for white colleagues shown in generally blue bars and afro
Caribbean colleagues and Asian colleagues shown in orangey bars I was breaking up that so-called BME label into the subp parts well the first thing you see is that white people aren’t homogenous anymore than we’re homogenous it’s actually if you’re a gypsy or traveler person you’re way more discriminated against you can see those
Bars are the longest for that Community almost or that like longer than higher it is for African other African other usually means second generation it’s our kids um uh who are the ones who experience that most and what you also see is that it’s women who have it worst the darker
Bars are women the slightly more yellowy bars are men so it’s women who have this way more I’m just showing you Aster as comparing African afrian Caribbean other I second generation black people versus Indian uh and you’ll see that it’s you know twice as likely for this uh this
Particular indicator it doesn’t matter what the indicator is my point isn’t go through this line by line it’s twice as likely that you’re discriminate against if you’re uh black as if you’re Indian and four times as likely as if you’re white so this is eye watering when you
Start breaking it down and without that you just lump white people against um BM people you miss out some of this and you miss out where you need to focus your attentions most and where you need to do the monitoring most um I don’t want to
Go through it in detail um pay Gap pay is the something which we can all understand because you know whatever your job a Mars bar cost the same so what you’re paid is something which everyone understands and what we see and I don’t want to go through in detail is
That black people get paid the least in for doctors we get the lowest level of progression through the careers get the lowest level of of being um of being uh renumerated through um systems and that begins at every level it begins in the top at how whether you get into a level
Your A Levels the same level grades getting into University you can see you’re half as likely compared to Asian or white colleagues is getting into University to do medicine once you’re there you’re less likely to be appointed um into the university you once you qualify you’re more likely to be said to be
Unsatisfactory um if you’re a black person especially if you’re an international graduate who’s been brought into this country um you’re less likely to pass your exams I’ve shown you some of that data earlier on really unpleasant deeply depressing damaging thing you’re more likely to be referred
To your Regulators as a nurse or a doctor or a healthcare professional of any sort if you’re are black or Asian compared to if you’re white um you’re more likely to be halted in your career you don’t become Consultants often you don’t become academically uh leaders and
Um and that results in a pay gap of 7% you know that may not seem a lot but that’s 114th of a salary we work a 50 week year you know that means we’re doing doing compared to everyone else we’re doing four weeks extra work or
Four weeks less pay uh for our work and so this idea that we just have to s be patient and things are getting better you know there is change it’s slow Anton I accept that but it’s changed you know what you know um James baldon is my
Abiding hero it’s bit embarrassing to be 57 years old and have a hero but there I are and I think I quote endlessly but this notion you can read as I’ve been saying all this much time are we meant to be saying like this how much longer are we going
To say oh well it’s only X number of years prob with the introduction was talking about how long the wind Rush generation is people have been here for longer but certainly in big numbers we’ve been here for as long as Clive says and are we seeing any change in
That PO for the better certainly and there is this issue around colorism so this is something which I do want to spend some time I’m really sitting your thoughts I know Watford is a very multiethnic area but there is definitely something about white proximity and the darker your skin tone the less white
Proximate you are and the more disadvantaged you are and we see that in every culture there’s really interesting data from Koreans Koreans are a real mixture we think of them as you know if you follow K-pop things very pale skinned Koreans but there’s a about a quarter of Korean population is really
Dark skinned um and they are the ones who are the most disadvantaged and this is not just Korea it’s seen lots of other countries in all the Spanish colonies and in Argentina has notoriously essentially killed or exported all its black slaves and there were tens of millions of them um and
Those few who are remain downcast Brazil all those countries um have this huge colorism which exists and of course you know it exists in England for all the reasons I’ve said and it’s also worth me remembering that for a lot of our Asian colleagues who came into this country
They came in the 70s they came in the wake of expulsions from East Africa they came in the wake of uh migration patterns with India government gandi government and the Pakistani crisis Bangladeshi Wars and they came in with professions and so their proximity to whiteness was Often by the fact that
They came with this um with set of professions which allowed them to have greater access and they came with this this culture certainly from Africa I can speak from my own personal experience that the Asian family I grew up with regarded black people as as beneath them
That whole idea of that pyramid was absolutely exempt so half of my family despise other half of my family for the color of our skin and it is that kind of colorism that we see play out again and again in all the data I’ve shown you all
The data about what happens to Asian people compared to African people and black people compared to white people so let’s not pretend all of this but all of our communities have had to adapt our name adapt our our patterns of behavior adaps our patterns of speech you know I
Came to this country when I was 12 years old and I speak like I speak now you know lot of my family speak with strongest African accents um why why because I learned at the age of 12 that this is how I avoided getting bullied or whatever else at some subconscious level
I don’t think I consciously realize it but there you go um are things going to change well as usual in life it’s the young people who are salvation what we see is that you know this mean interracial marriage is one very simple thing but views of young
People uh are very different to old people views of urban people are s different to more Forward Thinking and Rural people um there is educated colleagues are more advanced in that thinking than less educated colleagues so I think there is some hope for the future in terms of Youth and there is
Some really interesting sociological work which is not my speciality but um which says that actually it’s aad Conta so the greatest racism that I’m seeing now that I’m working in with the bsh government and in Wales across race and gender is in areas where there are very
Few black engan people like North Wales where there are hardly any black people uh there um the greatest racism and the greatest hostility at a personal level but also at an organizational level occurs in uh in areas of low contact so actually this this abstract I put in
There which you hopefully been reading while I’ve been talking is that actually by organization so actually that’s why part of the destruction of things like Trevor Phillips’s reports and the S SE old report is that they actually encourage people to believe that we’ve got it right and actually the whole point is
That the things that work are to improve contact improve the environment we work in in terms of diversity uh and those are the things that actually and and contact is the most important of all of those um so I I I’m going to talk about to fellow black people
Um what I do always spend time is telling people if they actually are serious about about being allies they need to look at Black produced resources they shouldn’t be looking at resources produced by white people uh to tell us how to be less racist uh they should
Look at what white people and Asian people uh say the most articulate of all these colleagues and I I’m happy to share these slides of this there are summarized in that uh there a long reading list in set I put on these slides um that for me is kind of
Critical um and you know the fact is that the reality is that in any space most people are more likely to go with the majority so being able to have the courage to speak up is quite a big deal for each of us and you know if we don’t
Say something if our white colleagues don’t say things they are we need to make them understand that they’re harming themselves because I can present a different set of discussions with you endless data showing you that when you do improve equality when you make the conditions better includ some of the
Work we did in England when you make it less oppressive for black and Asian people and you make your processes fairer you improve things like your staff finances like your ambulance waiting times like your cancer targets um like your turnover in A&E all those things are improved so actually if
You’re serious about improving your Healthcare outcomes to your people you improve your Workforce you know if you really treat your Workforce well you you improve patient care as well but people don’t think of that they think of it as oh it’s another thing I’ve got to solve
Uh is health is you know Health inequality but I’m busy uh with patient stuff it’s actually part of the whole process um so use data smartly I’m sorry I’m going to bore you with all this there’s things we can do to make be more data the other thing I wanted to say
Very briefly was that there’s a lot of literature there so when people say to you oh but we don’t know what to do we’re going to wait for something else don’t wait this is some date some work we produced this is for the NHS but there’s a load of literature loads
People have published things of what works so all of you been told oh can you can you be the token black or Asian person on the panel for interview you know what all the data says that doesn’t work bringing a token person in there doesn’t improve if you actually want to
Improve recruitment or promotion of black in asan people you do various there’s lots of other things and what we’ve done in this little picture I’ve taken here is a website we produced with organization called interest providers which each of those little blocks there is a link which links to um which the
Evidence of what you can do to create positive action to create tallent and man P Appliance to improve you how you uh you do job descriptions and advertising your jobs so you’re more inclusive to do Equitable shortlisting and so on so there is data there so not
Only is there data on where your inequalities are certainly in healthcare that’s exists there’s also lots of evidence of how you tackle those inequalities and this notion that we just have to live with what we’ve got because we don’t know is nonsense the data is existing for how our Workforce
Is treated the data is existing for how our patient outcomes are and the data exists for also what we should be doing uh which is this I’m trying to show here so I don’t want to dwell on this it’s just too much data stuff here um but
What I do want to say is that is that if there’s the summary for of this is that the system is corrupt that we need data to tackle this the system is deepness this kind of Iceberg figure thing um it’s a deeply corrupt system and the data is what’s going to
Help us identify where to go um because at the top of all these that if you actually want to create equality you the part of the iceberg that’s above the water you must tackle is your recruitment processes and your staff development how you manage your talent in your organization stuff below that
Like recruitment of board is just below that disciplinaries below that with all the stuff about culture and behavior that’s the hardest part to tackle so oh we got to change change the culture don’t tell me that that’s just an excuse to do nothing because you don’t change people’s culture overnight what you can
Change if you’re a leader is change how your HR department works change how you do your disciplinary change who you put on the board so it’s Equitable change where you advertise for those jobs change who you give a stretch opportunity when somebody’s a maternity leave change all those things above the
Water line then you begin to have some idea of what you’re going to do because all these things about you know changing microaggressions yeah they’re important I’m saying they’re not important but don’t educate you can’t educate people out of racism that’s the bottom line contact takes time educational programs
Which you’re forced to do don’t change people in the workplace if they become educated but then they go back to using a rubbish HR process or rubbish disciplinary process they just educated person with some knowledge they’re no more going to improve things for black and Asian people than they were before
Their course so let’s focus on actually taking action for the things we can do uh whether it’s on disciplinary whether it’s on board Recruitment and create this accountability structure that’s the whole process so create accountability use data use monitoring then you have some chance of doing things so
Fundamentally in the last summary slide nothing happens without being accountable accountability means using data to create heat Maps I’m working well we’re creating heat maps for all of our problems where it’s redder there’s a bigger problem where it’s Greener there’s little problem so we can tell for each organization what they should
Be doing from that then use that evidence base of what works as I showed you that little kind of slide all those little pockets use that evidence of what works and just go round and round that cycle forever and ever and ever and fundamentally once
You do that if you use um evidence and numbers as your base then you have a chance of actually chasing something without that you don’t have a chance and all of this depends on recognizing that racism begins uh with anti-blackness so for me that’s my sort of my m true about
All of this apologies if I’ve sort of if you ever heard me say something this before but for me fundamentally we haven’t got a chance of doing any of this without taking something intentional about this please please argue discuss um and I’m sorry about the delay at the
Start thank you very much uh Anon uh as I had anticipated uh what you’ve uh presented uh is a comprehensive uh picture that I’d hope like to think everybody on this uh um session recognize that actually there’s a lot of things that uh need to change a lot of
Challenges that we have I think you’ve uh um of course quite rightly looked at the picture uh particularly in the health sector as somebody who’s actually worked a bit in health in local government um in some of those uh Associated bodies the picture is no different um and uh you made reference
To um um I was going to say our friend but I should probably shouldn’t say it uh to suil and the work that he did um on us I should have said rather than uh anything else uh um which actually identified quite a lot of the issues but
Then drew a very different conclusion uh in fact it’s one of the the most extraordinary situation you can say the fact says this and then the conclusion says something completely different you know uh and um it it it actually isn’t helpful when you have uh an people in
Our community uh being put up to effectively uh convey lies and to try and um not help matters at all okay so um you’ve uh heard uh on onon and what I think might be helpful is if people have any questions we can actually um pick up
Some of those questions now and then it may be that we might also want to share some of our own experiences and some of you may for example be from other sectors as well um so um um Marilyn you’re normally very helpful with respect to this uh I don’t know where
Whether you’re able to see what people put down are there any question question the chat I can’t see any questions as yet but really people just saying Fant brilliant presentation Anton very explosive oh how do we get this um to impact the universities and NHS after
The Damage Done by the they put in bracket sewer report so how does one undo the damage that’s been done because people will now quote that report back as is fact yeah so I think got remember that you know Johnson commissioned that report because he want he knew what the
Conclusion he wanted right and I think you know C’s point is right the DAT the data they quoted all be it selective was incomplete but even there it did show the evidence of systemic discrimination specifically anti-black discrimination but the so I think the thing about the
Cred report SE report you want to call it is that it was always going to be reported as that has that been the thing that is the damage no the damage is done by this reactionary Tory party that we have in CT this is I’m not a political person I
Despise them all but the point about this is that this is that that the problem is beyond and before the SE report basically is what I’m saying and I don’t think we should we should call it out for being rubbish uh but we should call every bit of thing that they
Produce which is not helpful at all cause um so what we have to do I think is you know when people raise it just say but it as Clive said the conclusions were completely at odds with the data it’s shared but actually here’s what we
Can do so I think what we it’s for me by pie is racism is systematized and systemic things don’t get better with there’s not going to be a Haitian type re you know slave revolution in brit what there’s going to be is peace meal erosion of the structures that keep this
In place you know it they didn’t change discrimination in America with the passing of the Civil Rights Acts what has happened is that this peace meal still carries on so we have to tackle this peace meal but we have to make it some some way better for our kids than
It is for us so I think yeah put the report to as side let’s focus each of our sectors dig out the data which says here’s where suffering is greatest and then do those parts and yeah governments who knows I don’t expect come up any better than the current one wonderful
Thank you so much and I think Christina has sorry Clive you not Christina Christiana oh yes uh Prophet Immanuel thank you very much for this presentation it’s deep and touching and I can say that most of us here in the workplace either with the NHS or local government
Have gone through this I’m retired now but I can say you to you I’ve been through it and my children are going through it and my grandchildren may may go through it in your uh experience I think the audience should change how often have you presented to a larger
Audience not of black people the change needs to come if we presentent our experiences to where I don’t want to use legal terms but I will the perpetrators are they need to hear us to hear our experiences Christi I mean this is for for for our tomorrow to
Change now you’re talking my language Christian I mean this is what we did and for a while I mean my own micro what happened to me was a a snapshot say whilst we had particular set of leadership in the an England I was able
To do my work I was able to tackle Chief exx I was able to tackle uh leads for regional health authorities um but once Simon Stevens um was once he retired once the the person who was my boss uh left the system reverted so yeah I mean
Talking to beers and it’s making them own this so you know if if a leader if if they have a if they screw up their finances they go to special measures they don’t they don’t revolve around they take a step down um but they don’t they don’t care about EDI issues they
Don’t care about black and brown people you know it’s it’s their because they don’t suffer there’s no penalty to them if they suffer for A&E weights they suffer for um you know missed cancer targets they suffer for finis but they don’t and creating accountability was
The thing we were trying to do and then as soon as there’s a change of personnel in the NHS that that all changed so yeah I mean we talk to them but it’s ultimately talk with a c with a kpi keep ke perform again that’s the only way to
Get people to to act that’s you know the organization do this well I’ll give you short answers here after apologized like but who does equality stuff well it’s weirdly things like Google um um Gap uh Microsoft why because they sell more advertising they sell more Burgers more
Coffee by treating people fairly so when there bottom lines there people do it but if you’re not under threat I say or if you don’t get more you don’t make changes that’s the lesson unfortunately absolutely carolan you wanted to come in and then Evelyn and and then John after that
Caran caran you’re muted I can see your mouth moving but you’re muted okay am I I’m on muted now you’re fine okay I just wonder if um sometimes people of some of us people of African Heritage who are too shy to be explicit about the way we’ve treated and we allow
Ourselves to be Hoodwinked into silence yeah I think some of us do some of us don’t uh and if if we don’t then we’re called you know we’re called aggressive and we’re called angry and we’re called whatever else we’re called uh some of us just learn to shut our
Mouths and try and suck it up um I mean we’re different we we’re all each of us different and we all react different we all react to the situation we find ourselves in it’s hard I think it’s it’s I i’ I used to tell people to try and
Keep fighting and all that and I real it’s like telling somebody who’s dying to keep fighting you can’t you just have to fight the battle your way your your heart allows you to we experience this day in day out some of us do suck it up
And just try and put our head down and work harder for the Next Generation some of us come L I think the problem is with the perpetrators as T Christian’s correct description rather than the victims as victims we have to be victims in the way that our brain
Allows us to and our heart allows us to okay my believe yeah uh uh absolutely but I I do agree um Caroline I do I do think that uh there are some issues where sometime for whatever reason we seem to find it easier to avoid uh uh
Deal with the issue uh because it’s too painful or whatever um but actually some of us actually enjoy colluding with um the the system seems to me and actually we do need to uh to seek to um address that but uh uh Evelyn you wanted to come
In yes so thank you um my favorite Professor profor Anon Emanuel um so we’ve always got to remember that systemic racism all right and and white supremacy is a very powerful structure it is not easy for everybody to call it out or to address it because they have
To think about themselves there what what happens is that especially within the NHS which is the environment in which I work and other other organizations I am sure it happens throughout is that when you call out systemic racism you then become the target and then you then become the
Aggressor so it’s not always safe and you’ve got to really um I don’t know you’ve just you it’s a different you’re a different type of person and I think that what what anti-racism needs to be embedded within leadership that’s what that’s what needs to happen and um and when you talk about
Um people of color people of color can be part of the system because it’s all about power isn’t it I mean if you look at the current government just by merely including people within the co within the government based on the color doesn’t necessarily mean that they have
This anti-racism stance so so the way that I look at it I think it’s a it’s a Perpetual thing that we’re always going to have to address but I think it’s about disrupting that system keep on having the conversations you know align yourself with like-minded people you
Know just don’t do it on your own because it’s it’s so weathering it’s exhausting it’s tiring um because because even just this Friday andu my colleague and I we work in an organization where we’ve got a global yeah not all skin folk are kin folk at
All we know that um where our Workforce is 70% which I describe as Global majority all right and even in that environment where 70% is global majority in the NHS if you look at the reason according to Pro to protected characteristics why people feel that they’re discriminated on the on that
Basis 98% of NHS organizations in England will stay on the basis of rate and race and Global majority don’t represent uh 90% of the 98% of the workforce so they’ve got to be people of color within the structure within the system that facilitate systemic racism they do it punitively with formal
Disciplinaries with complaints with referrals to the nmc referrals to the GMC you know our Regulators for nurses and for doctors and because it’s it’s all part of that that power con construct so I think what people have to be remember if they’re survivors of of systemic racism is that it’s not about
Us it’s the system we’ve really got to to to to not take it on board and and just just support each other as much as we can thank well uh well said uh uh John are you wanted to come in uh thanks for CH for all that data
Which explains everything one of the things I think we need to realize and we need to point out is there are a lot of us within the NHS there is strength in numbers but we don’t use the strength that we have what we need is to be organized enough to
Demand change we keep waiting for change to happen to us we are strong enough there are enough of us to demand change and that’s that that’s what I think we need to get to what what are your views on that yeah John thank you very much
Thanks Eve I I need to say I agree with everything you say um I think the thing with the numbers argument is that it requires us we need to we need we need to unionize we we need to collect ourselves together into a into a group and I think
We tend to to fragment partly because that’s the way work goes is that we’re we’re sort of isolated into little pockets um but partly because we don’t think we don’t see ourselves as say if you’re a States worker you don’t think I’ve got anything in common with a nurse
Who’s providing technical care and if you’re a radiographer you don’t think I’ve got anything in common with the consultant surgeon or whatever and I think that’s the the challenge we have is to recognize that what the what the oppressors see is our Blackness first and then our job roll second
And we need to lean into that so I think yeah essentially I agree our strength is in numbers but our numbers need to be gathered together at the moment our numbers aren’t gathered together unfortunately because we we tending to just try and say how can I survive this
Storm of of what’s coming down how do I keep myself healthy um and I think that’s for me the kind of the Betrayal of the of the black lives matter thing was that we had a we had a little window there I felt as black and brown people
To do something with our lives uh which actually when there’s a bit of wind in our sale we’ve lost that a bit so I think so yeah I agree with the numbers thing how we do it I think for me and I’m trying tole micro environment and
Not where I work is to make sure that anyone who is dark skinned is connected to us rather than it being rather be connected to your little team so this whole idea of kind having black sections for me is is important um and the smaller your organization as easier it
Is to do that um and once you’ve got that then you can go as a group then you can go and say right this is what we’re experiencing because I don’t think the staff networks in most things really work unfortunately very well I think part of the issue uh though
Anon is that uh the staff networks um and and I know about the ones within um the NHS the issue um has been they’ve themselves been sort of um designed in ways that actually doesn’t always bring out a focus on the the core issue but the other issue that they have and
That’s where um the system has worked very effectively uh is that a lot of us don’t even see the issues and the the problems that we have so we actually see coming together has not a positive but a negative um and until we can begin to to
See that actually there is a value in coming together to make change then it becomes very very difficult for to happen but the movement as I see to somebody who’s kind of just uh left that arena is to um to talk about for example um you mentioned the SE
Intersectionality you know and uh we don’t want to talk about racing longer let’s talk about intersectionality you know because uh that’s going to resolve every uh everything so um I think there are some challenge but I see marari I think you wanted to come in I don’t know if I pronounce your name
Correctly uh you’re muted you’re still muted you’re still muted uh if you could on mute um there would be a uh um You’ have a microphone uh sort of uh somewhere if you click on that then that should unmute you yeah yes oh you mute yourself again sorry
Okay oh my God this is embarrassing okay that’s fine now try again one more time okay don’t touch anything else for now all okay hello yeah yeah that’s fine thank you oh sorry about that I’m being being a retired person I’m out of a with techology that’s my excuse
Anyway um I agree with so many things that youve all touched on um why I I’m retired person I come from a early years management background but I went once I retired I work for the I work in the NHS as um Health Care uh healthare assistant and occupational therapist as and what
You know you I I what what I found there one of the things I found about why sometimes um I couldn’t make changes because when I did get to know some of the colleagues my work colleagues in the office and when I see how they were treated especially um the the black colleague
When I try to put some ideas what they could do to changeing as I had a management um coming from management background then they they really say oh they don’t want to go down that road because the immigration issue they had they just wanted to
Um to lay low and be happy to to keep their job so this is when I’m beginning to look at view people differently because I say why does certain people put up with such Behavior you know um within their their their um their section their department but sometime
It’s more to it than that why people don’t come together and and and this is what I I found I mean even as a manager when I was choosing staff and I try to encourage my um people from my community why they were they making mistake in
Interview situation some of them did the the attitude I was just I walk away and shake my head to say I’m trying to help you to move on to the next stage but you know it’s like they used to shake their shoulder or they they used to be just
Don’t care and it was very dishearten for for me you know wanting to to get them into another role but they just weren’t helping themselves so putting that aside what out of out out of frustration of phen or discrimination I made sure that I I helped my daughter architecture and and she’s
She’s she’s won award for a role and I that’s what I’ve put all my energy in I said I can’t do it for everybody but I’m going to make sure I do it for my for for myself and my daughter and touch touch thank God I feel like she said
That since black life matters They promoted her and she said mommy you know she was you know um she she was she can say yes she have seen a slight difference since black life matter so my question is to Anon is why do you think that we lost that little window from
Black life mattered I know why from speaking to listening to the media what the media were out there um um saying about it it’s a militant organization and I was I wasn’t surprised some of our people from our community was taking that up and really believing them but I
Want to know from you Anam and I’ve learned so much from you but in a way I don’t want to be be frustrated by all the things you tell me because I I’ve been frustrated most of my life and whatever I’ve achieve in life I’ve had
To try try I wouldn’t give up I wouldn’t cuz sayy keep telling me that were you’re too self assured why because I was confident so I didn’t let them um deter me from where I wanted to be but go back to my question there’s so many
Things say but I want to give other people opportunity why do you think um there we lost that window from black life matters in your opinion that little W that small window where do you think we went wrong what happened still few I think about it a
Lot I think the what we didn’t do is we didn’t transform that popular interest in in the experience of black people into something which was systemic change we made it about for me about statues we made it about things those were those were the bouquet of flowers we didn’t
Change the the UNF fundamental thing we we talked about the icing not the cake and that is the problem the fact is of course and the the reaction the the reactionary people was still in power and they were just they we just poked them like poking a bear so the whole
Black lives thing annoyed them and so they’ve come back twice as hard I think the environment we’re in now is way worse than before 2020 because these people are reacting to the freedoms that they saw um black people Express for a short while so yeah I think we as a
Community didn’t Flex the argument but most the sin most most of the sin lies with the oppressors just down on there and can I just say this I noticed the amount of um um some in um black people are getting gongs you know from the royal family I’m thinking is that to
Keep us quiet to keep us in our place we we you know I’m thinking do they realize what they’re doing by by giving us this they they’re shutting us up something somebody said once and LBC that J Jamaica was fighting for um what’s that thing um reparation reparation and so
King’s Charles have put a person one of his own cronies in place to control it and I think is that true do you do you anything about that and so this is what that as well and I said wake up our community our black people keep stop getting these gongs from these
Royal family is to keep us in our place don’t real and I’m thinking and one person who didn’t accept it and when he died did did the media made a big fuss they Hush Hush it they kept it quiet because he is one of the first that came
Out and said I don’t need this so um what’s his name that one that Benjamin Z thank you you better good at me I mean I’m nearly 70 so forgive me so yeah and and um I speak of somebody who’s uh got one of those gongs and I have to tell
You that uh um despite that it hasn’t shut me up so uh because actually I do I think um I understand uh the arguments uh around this and in most societies there are these recognition it’s unfortunate that in this Society is associated with a legacy of Empire and the the stuff that
Is going on um and uh I think that uh if you have accepted one of these as I did and you think that that means that uh you’re now superior to the rest of uh your your your community then you were never a part of the community which seem
To me uh at the end of the day however Carolina I know uh Karen uh hasn’t spoken as she wanted to come in so let I’ll let her go before you and then you can come back in K Karen um um good evening everyone um Anton
Thank you very much for your your talk right I have been in the Health Service 40 years I worked very hard to get where I got right I was nurse and then became a midwife now just a few pointers right we know um and I’ll start off with just
What you’ve just said the black the black lives matter it was ambushed it wasn’t for us anymore took it away from us okay and you saw exactly which direction who was leading all of this and at the end of there those top there should have backed out and said no
You are not jumping on our bandwagon every time we have something somebody jumps on our bandwagon but it’s not for our right now we go back to the Empire wind rushers we are still not fulfilled they’re not fulfilled none of their promises it’s fulfilled we are still
Fighting our parents are dead and buried our children are looking and thinking what do fighting for and we have to explain to them there is a process here there is something in it but you don’t understand it because they don’t understand us when we talk about the
Perpetrators in the NHS they’ve moved on they’ve gone elsewhere to do their dirty work and I have seen them and I know some of them have fallen because I was there when they fell and they fell hard and when they had to walk out it was a
Very long corridor and it was a very lonely walk but you cannot be satisfied by just one person’s demise still left people behind we are Our Own Worst Enemy at times and listen to Margarita you advise somebody you tell somebody something you take them aside this is the way listen
You want to go every time I had a student anyone I used to say to them right you’ve qualified where are you going from here you advise I was an advisor I like to see my people come forward but I like to see them move on because then when you
Get used you don’t go anywhere you stay and you you become discontented you become angry right and I’m really glad when I see my brother and sister rise I give them the credit I do not hold back you tell them them and you make sure and you encourage them regardless I don’t
Care you know Asian black white whatever black I don’t care where you come from I encourage you because we need to do this yeah and we need to face adversity come on we’ve been battling this for a long time people this is why we’re still here
Fighters and I know it’s a scary thing because when we want to go out there and do something somebody does something and then we all shy way and we move back and we sit back and watch the next episode come along okay thank you can’t all be leaders yeah sorry
Sorry leaders yeah we need some followers I hear you so um can I I mean I think that uh we heard quite a lot about uh uh some of the issues um and I think think it might be helpful uh Caroline I see you put your hand down but did you want to
Come back on something yeah yours you’re muted just as a follow on previously to um to to Anton’s statement with regard to um fragmentation um and I just thought we should not allow ourselves to take on the labels that attributed to us um and what I mean by that
Is they some of us don’t realize that they the classifications that are attributed to black people there was a time when um I mean it was Europeans who labeled us black it was the Europeans who told us that um if you had one drop of black blood in you you were black I’m
Happy to take that on however in more recent times particularly I think since um that gulfer what’s his name um that American black that Tiger Tiger Woods yeah Tiger Wood who didn’t really identify and um with um President Barack former president Barack Obama the fragmentation has become more pronounced
I think in saf faras whereas you’d be described as in the past then black as a more acceptable term um and now it’s mixed race now as far as I’m concerned I don’t like the term race because we’re all One race the human race which Walked Out Of Africa
Let’s not forget I prefer mixed Heritage or of African herit Heritage which you can argue that again because we’re all of African Heritage but I think you you know what I mean in more in more modern modern terms however quite a lot of people seem to have bought into this
Concept of mixed race which people don’t realize it takes us back to the pale of the Hue the more important you are the paler the Hue the higher the status and people seem to be confusing this this thing so that you have the divisions between us as people of African Heritage
Um I feel we need to be educated into not buying into those to those labels which seek to further divide us so my question is what can we do how can we organize our ourselves in order to um ensure or or or or achieve more a more Unity between us people of African
Heritage in the more modern sense yeah no thank you I think that’s that’s one of the challenges we face for sure Caren um I think the reality is that we don’t have for that where that part goes we don’t have enough role models we don’t we don’t
Have a a black Forum I remember when I came to this country first there used to be a program that my Tamil father used to watch for like a Indian program on a Sunday morning there was a we now have this little frag there’s nothing in the
Mainstream where we can coales around as you said ear on lot of these things like black history month and so on they get they get become tokenized they become something which say oh well we’ll do this that and black lives matter get taken over by other people so I think
The the ways in which we can coales around something if you know the reason certain groups why why is it that so I was talk about Asians have made progress because they came with they came with professional things and they came with proximity whiteness um but there’s more
Than that they there’s an Asian structure which exists in a much stronger way I fear then we have as black people we don’t coales you know I mean John and eeve and I are trying to do something uh around medical of things but um it’s you can sort of see that even that
Little bit of scratching creates tension so how do we do it the first thing we do I think is we have to own this and I think you know you sort of see the chemes and you see the people who don’t own their they they keep their proximity
To to power as a way of um of maintaining things or they have other personal reasons why they don’t they don’t they don’t come closer we need we need our we need a stronger voes we need stronger voices in the media we need more need more people who are prepared
To to say I’m here and I’m black first you know Barack Obama whatever else he did never really talked about his there’s never something he owned because he was told he had to lose more votes by doing that we can you think of any black people who say I’m black first Louis
Hamilton does and he gets treated like a pariah you know you can see what happens so as soon as you put your head parapet as a and declare your Blackness you instantly go from being a hero to being something you’ve forgotten about and that’s right so none of us want to do it
Well some of us yeah can can I can I just add add to that I think it’s something that we need to go back to the roots and Tackle first because people who were born here may not realize but in colonial Caribbean we were taught um
By the colonial Master sh we say to hate ourselves MH children who went to school here they would have had some of that as well and for people who don’t know we were taught Africans have no culture no soul I don’t know if some of you can
Identify with that in terms of what what you may or may not remember we were given very negative names for Africans in other words teach you to hate yourselves and so that is why you probably find some of the older generation of of of Caribbean people especially those of the pal Hue who
Still to this day does not do not understand what was had had had gone wrong with them in that they don’t want to identify with Africa because they were taught to hate we’re taught to hate ourselves and I think we need we need to tackle that first before we can Emer
Emerge um into in in in in in in in into um providing a platform um whereby because I if there are there are Role Models out there but it’s getting us together absolutely Carol I’m going to stop you there I’ve got a couple of uh other people wanted to speak but then I
Really do want us to think about um what um where do we go from here uh what do we need to to do to make the change because actually we can’t just wait for other people to do it I think there may be some things that were mentioned here
Already but it been uh good to to log some thoughts about how are we going to change the narrative around this um because I always like to handle more of a positive rather than just reflecting on uh what’s going wrong we need to think about what what might go right but
I think I had uh mud and then Selena and then um we’ll pick up and if you have any contribution to that department whilst you speak uh M have I got your name correct it’s madur mad that’s okay thank you okay um thank you uh proft um of
Course as always it’s really good to hear you and when you bring your stats to us we it helps us to understand it even better and to know you know there’s a lot of work to be done and as Clive just said you know he’s moving forward
How do we move forward from this and you know especially for myself as a I I I sort of identify as an Indo Trinidadian I am Indo Caribbean woman so for someone like myself you know it’s it’s even more difficult to fit in because often you don’t fit in as black Caribbean you
Don’t fit in as Indian from any part of Asia but people see you and it’s only when you open your mouth and you have an accent then they identify well oh so she’s from somewhere else so for myself as a woman of color in the NHS it has
Been a real struggle to get where I am and I think earlier on you know there was many um uh persons on here mentioning the fact that you know how do we come together and I think the one thing that you know we can all agree
With is colorism in the NHS is such a big thing and I see it day in day out and despite me being off a paler Hue I get you know no opportunities Avail themselves to me and I can say as well that you know there would be other
Colleagues coming in at a junior level of a much paler Hue and getting those opportunities Avail themselves to them and I think even amongst you know sort of our black and brown sisters and brothers there needs to be something more that we can do as individuals to
Pull this together because you know we talk about colonialism but equally there’s imperialism and that still filters through into the NHS at this day and age and it is so difficult you know when you think that you you’re rooting for someone and you really want to bring
This person together with you or you want to be on that Journey with other people and you’re not given the opportunity because of you know other people sort of working together with the privileged ones and you don’t have that opportunity so what I mean I don’t know
What it will take especially I I would say in Northwest London for the sort of you know the scenery to change so whatever it takes what I mean I am now part of Northwest London and I am happy to work with my brown and black brothers and sisters to get this work
Done because there’s a lot of work to be done so Prof if you have any suggestions we’re welcome to it thank you so I think so I I I I I think we can’t expect solutions to come quickly from the top I know your care board should I say I know the
Leaders in your integr care board and they don’t get this at all they so they’re not they’re not going to be D anding is going to drive them so so this is a very health conversation sorry so put them to a side I don’t they’re not going to take
The action they need to take in my view and there’s no incentive for them to do so what can we do as as black people here what what can we practically do I think the first thing to do is to to to allly ourselves so don’t make don’t let
Ourselves we may have to we don’t all have to love each other and hold each other’s hands but in public we need to not show any side don’t give the people any inch so you know you may I may have a huge disagreement with you m I won’t
Ever um but but we’ve got to shut our mouths in public have that disagreement with you in private in public create a unified face you know what what succeeded to some extent in Africa in South Africa what succeeded to some extent during the the anticolonial uh history of Western East Africa when we
Overthrew our white Masters was the fact that we kept it together we were we number one took arms I’m not saying we should take arms but we should we should be militant H we should be strong and secondly we need to be cohesive so whatever disagreements there was between
Zanu and zabu in Zimbabwe whatever disagreement between the EOS and yub and we shut our mouths for a short while um and that’s the thing we don’t do I’m not saying we’re facing what our ancestors faced in terms of colonialism we’re facing a different beast but the
Principles are the same which is that we don’t I think as black and brown people generally we just we find ourselves in public saying oh well I disagree with you know so now I disagree completely with seel and Trevor Phillips but if I wasn’t with black people I wouldn’t say
That okay I I would say oh yeah yeah I don’t fundamentally agree with the report but I never to criticize people in public uh to other non black people so I think there’s that part of it um so that’s kind of mle Point too much sorry beyond that I think there’s the thing
That we then need to take one thing again I don’t embarrass Eevee but you know look at what Eevee did eie took one thing and nibbled and nibbled away with that until she got a goal then she took another thing and nibbled nibbled away that and they may seem small but they
Are big because they have an impact on the individual but they also have the wide communties that so I think once we stop arguing once we find our find a single Target do that that’s not the end of our job then then do the next one
This does mean that we the people who are suffering are the ones we have to do more but that’s that’s that’s the burden that’s what it is um so because we can’t split our masters to suddenly give us the keys to the prison and say how you come we’ve got to break
Out okay so okay Selena you wanted to come in uh briefly I really was aiming to try and get us finished by 8:30 but so um but I can see that it maybe that we might have to have a followup Selena you want to come in yes so thank you much Anon and
Colleagues in this platform I think um Anon to me I’m just trying to think um what are the possibility what is it that maybe we can do more from the system perspective so you know like U for example the most of our my origin from
The NHS trust and you kind of try to uh uh push their agenda forward and then you come to the system so whereby this this landscape is a bit different the data even the data sharing is an issue the data collection is dissimilar and all sort of things what is it that that
You think maybe there is an opportunity that maybe we need to tap more uh because now there is a partnership there and then in view of this lack of funding and the icbs I don’t know not of spending and all sort of things please
Thank you thank you s i’ love it to see you again um the I think the thing remember is that as ICB again sorry for those who are not Health people but uh icbs have a single mandated thing to do one thing that they expected to do and
There’ll be answer all as health inequalities we know that black people have worse outcomes from various cancers from cardiovascular health from mental health maternity Health diabetes we focus on that’s what we have to do we have to focus I’m talking about this from a purely black perspective now as
To black and Asian um focus on that reminds people that if they want to improve their maternity outcomes and their fatal outcomes for black women they have to see more blackly natal nurses at higher bands we see more midwives at higher bands Ally the outcomes that they live
And die by what they going to be held account to by the government is Health inequalities and make it easy for them make it easy to say this is going to help you this is like an extra ask for you to use your money to help your stff
Is to to link that so that for me is the part that is to work on the bit that they have there the other thing is that we it gives us a chance to um tie in the so I’ve moved away from this idea with accountability from thinking of single
Targets to the idea of thinking more about how we create um probably it um move away IDE single targets we’re creating a network of things so um I think we in in healthcare in uh should be saying okay so we need to have not just more black
Midwives we also need to have a situation where uh maternity postnatal care for black women looks like this um and then the in terms of anal advice so create a sequence of things which are around that not just a single employ more black people thing in mental health
You can think of exactly the same scenarios around social care around uh medication access and so so create multiple targets for and make it explicit that improving staff outcomes will have a direct effect on the things that they omnition on namely patient outcomes and health in quality so yeah
That’s why I I see but your ICB I’m sorry to say is completely it’s one of the worst I came across sorry okay thank you very much um I think we I wanted just to touch on the way forward how do we change a narrative
On uh see uh Lola you wanted to come in I know you put some in the chat um which I think is really very helpful do you want to uh say any more or um uh I don’t know if anyone every everyone can see the the chat but thanks very thanks very
Much thanks Anton for your very very interesting um presentation um I think my anxiety is that we’re still we’re still speaking among ourselves um we need to we need to get to a point where we make an impact with all this data all this data is only useful if
It’s going to change our experiences of working in the NHS working in the police or working in any other sector so we need to find a way of how do we get all this information to make an impact on the system I know that individuals uh make major changes people like evil
Eevee um and you know until you get to that level where you’re able to take a risk it’s very difficult for most clinicians to be able to R the boat so to speak so you know you have people who are able to take that risk often to the
Detriment of their own profession but obviously the the higher you go within the profession when you get to a certain level you can take some of that risk but a lot of your Juniors will not be able to do that I know quite a number of
Young nurses cuz I’ve I recently went to the Royal College of Nursing conference and I know that a lot of our Junior nurses are now getting very very militant and they will not tolerate half of what we tolerated um when we were Junior nurses so I think there is hope
There um if they don’t get shut down so to speak um if they raise their head above the parit we used to have a situation where we used to have Saturday schools and things like that for our young people to become conscious of what it is to be black within this society
And what they need to do to ensure that they don’t get you know they don’t have a negative experience of racism within the society I think some like John said earlier on we need to get to the point where we need to get people together again not just those of us in
Professions or working but even our young people children in school um children in colleges universities they need to start thinking about the next 5 years 10 years what will my experience be will it be the same as my parents my grandparents my great-grandparents because otherwise if nothing is done now
We’re still going to be here sharing this data amongst ourselves and speaking about racism and the problems we have so it’s time we start thinking about the solution we all know what the problem is what is the solution is what I’d like us to discuss thank you okay can I can I
Just say um you’ve made a brilliant uh some brilliant points De Lola and what I suggest with to other colleagues um in our uh chat function uh in because we are out of time really if you could actually put any suggestions as to what we ourselves can do either individually
Collectively or in partnership with others then do put it out there so we can begin to look at uh how do we ultimately change the narrative I said at the very beginning that we’re looking at uh near 60 years since the that first race relations act in
1965 and uh in a sense fundamentally not enough has Chang but um in order to conclude I want to hand back to to Anton to to share any final words um that is’s got having been part of um this Center of this conversation this evening um and
Whilst I get him to do that let me just uh tell you um that this meeting has been organized by the wford African Caribbean Association it is a membership organization a membership is free I put in the chat the link to our website where you can actually uh join and
Certainly if you live in the local area around arford Shire um nor London then this is as much your organization with technology and now we can um accommodate uh um a lot of uh people from a lot of places we often have people from Africa the Caribbean joining these
Conversations that we can now have uh verbally so make the organization yours and uh some of you would have probably had much more information about what has been happening as you joined uh and being a member I know um Carol who is joining us from Hamshire uh is a a
Member of the organization although she did used to live in outfire but uh so um Anton um just any final words uh from from you about this evening because I’m conscious that people may well want to get up get up and have a little walk
Around and so on and so for no so first of all thank you for inviting me and thanks for the really brilliant engagement I always it’s always good to be around kin folk um so thank you for that um the I hear the thing about Solutions and I think it for me
Solutions come around a keep saying small bite-sized pieces I’m obsessed by the idea of using data to identify what those pieces you eat are so where do we start eating that’s where the data helps but then consume that and then focus on one thing
At a time I I think that’s where if you look at where success has occurred in big narratives about overcoming gender or what it’s I say one thing very briefly sorry the gender pay Gap in healthcare six years ago it just first published 18% appalling still apping but
It’s 12% that’s a huge shift that’s a six percentage Point shift that’s a third better that’s an amazing achievement why number one it’s a data thing but number two they focus on saying how do we make it such that our agender pay Gap is narrowed by number
One by publishing it and number two by taking action essentially around Recruitment and promotion of women in in healthcare now that has usually been white women uh I should say but the example is the point I’m getting not the fact of that so for me the lessons to
Learn are lesson where there successes occur and the one thing about the being as huge as it is and the res data that Workforce R data been there for long that there are little pockets little glimmers of what’s worked so as I say white- siiz pieces to identify where the
Things are little small projects on what you do protect each you know unionize stop stop criticizing each other in public so we have solidarity and then focus on say you know whatever our voice is say to work on the one area we can work on um that for me is the solution
Um and not expect people to suddenly say oh well here are the keys to the kingdom we we’ve we’ve been bad small small pieces what will bring this down not there’s not there’s no CA coming there’s no KY St there’s no there’s no Revolution that’s going to
Come from above we have to do this ourselves Thank you very very much uh Anton um we’re going to try and bring this to a close then and I’m going to say um without uh Anton’s uh invaluable contribution this session would not have been what it has been I I hope you’ve
Had your your eyes open to uh really the size of the difficulty that we have and uh I know there was a focus on the health uh sector but those of us in the room who might have worked in other sector know that actually uh basically
It’s a mirror image of what we’ have as a societal problem that faces us uh in the the black uh community and um uh we are we can’t just do spend all of our time just thinking about uh how bad it is because I noticed somebody put in
There that uh um things in uh affect our mental well-being we got to look after ourselves and part of that though is to think about what uh used to happen back in the village in Africa um the concept that it takes a village to raise a child
We can apply to this the same system here too we need to actually look at how do we come together and make that difference uh if you go back to the 50s and 60s there were a lot of organizations that brought us together uh um to fight what was then more
Blatant uh uh racism it’s not quite as blatant in no longer but the challenges are still there and a lot of those organizations have disappeared as it happens we in Watford is one of those that haven’t in the last near 50 years so I think we have to look at yes B size
What we uh we can do but actually we have to come together and use these kind of mechanisms and um I would say to you join with us in Watford African Caribbean Association and that will be part of that small step that we can take to to to to make a
Difference so on that note I’m going to say uh thank you all very much for for joining if there is anything else like this that you’d like to see or if you’d like to see another um exploration of aspects of this then uh please put some
In the chat and we’ll pick that up and because we’re here as an organization to work we say that we’re here to look at uh the overall well-being of our community uh in whichever form that takes uh but together our motto is also together we can achieve so please do
Think about uh join us joining local organizations um that can help to begin to start making a difference and making sure that we are um uh recognized and valued as much as anyone else in the community that we live in and Achieve as much as anyone else in the community
That we’re in and we we don’t continue to suffer the disadvantage that we have undoubtedly suffered over a very long period of time so once again thank you all very much uh Anton um I’m hoping that we can call in you again uh because I think uh
Um you’ve not you’ve just touched the surface of some of these issues and uh consider clap so play please give Anton a a clap on mute if you want to uh because I think it’s been uh a most valuable even and I’m so pleased put on thank
You hope you come back to you something positive from Wales fingers crossed let’s see how we go thank you yes we’ll keep in oh uh I’m not going I’m now going to stop the recording uh Marilyn thanks for reminding me I actually didn’t quite start it when I should