The new financial year will be an extremely challenging one for those of us working in Public Health communications. Finances will be stretched in both the NHS and local authorities and demand for services will continue to be high.
Despite the numerous public health priorities, for many of us it will be difficult to identify funds for campaigns and even harder to identify funds for learning and development.
In this Public Health Communications Hub webinar, we decide that challenge brings opportunity! And we discuss the practical things you can do now to be ready to meet these challenges and ensure your team can deliver high impact public health comms which change key behaviours, including:
– Likely priorities for public health communications in 2024/25.
– Opportunities for collaboration and training.
– Tried and tested tactics for: smoking cessation, measles and other childhood immunisations and physical activity – getting people moving more.
With Russell Cartwright, Assistant Director of Communications and Engagement at NHS South-East London ICS – who heads up the Public Health Comms Hub on behalf of CAN – and John-Paul Danon, Director at CAN Digital.
More info on the hub: https://can-digital.net/public-health-comms-hub/
Hi everybody um welcome to uh to to this webinar uh my my name is Russell cartrite I’m um I’m assistant director of Communications in um the NHS in um in southeast London and um I’ve worked in um NHS Communications for um over 23 years now um I’m also a behavior change
Specialist um and um I’ve leared a lot about using Behavioral Science to um have a have a kind of real impact on public health um I’ve LED leading kind of several campaigns that have won um Global and national awards in the last um five years or so um I’m now also um
Because i’ in that time I’ve kind of developed my passion for this work and I’m now um also working as a a consultant to train and support other in-house teams to incorporate Behavioral Science into their their ways of working um and as part of that I set up
This public health Communications Hub um with the support of um friends at cam digital um as a as a place for us to us as professionals to come together to solve problems um to share learning um and also good practice um so and part of that is is is running webinars like this
Um this is the the the fifth one of these that we’ve done and recording from all of the previous ones um are on the on the Hub so so you can access those um we are um we are recording today um so so um by being here with your your um
Camera on or off you are kind of consenting to be part of that recording um yeah and we will share the recording from today with you all um early next week um one thing a couple of things just to say really before we properly get going
Um if the the Hub is very much designed to be for you and useful for you and you know we want to cover topics and things that that you will find helpful in your job so if you’ve got any suggestions for things that we should cover in future
Webinars or areas we want you you’d like us to focus on please do you know pop it in the chat um also as we go um today you know please do put any questions to um to us um in the chat and we’ll we’ll
Try and cover them um if we can or if not we’ll cover them afterwards um so I’m joined today by um John Paul um J JP would you like to introduce yourself yes hello everybody I’m John Paul from can can is an organization that runs campaigns for the public
Sector um and we specialize in creating miserable low cost per outcome campaigns um and very happy to be here thanks JP um but so this is what we plan to cover today um I think uh we’re looking at the kind of priorities and also the challenges that
We face in the sector as we go into um the new Financial year uh there’s a lot of challenge you know as as I’m sure we’re all aware um obviously finances are very challenging in both um the NHS and local authorities and these Challen you know the financial
Challenges are are only likely to um to get worse uh there’s significant backlogs in the NHS in terms and in Social care in terms of um terms of care there’s uh demand continues to increase there are there are crises of Staffing uh some of the strikes are still not yet
Resolved um in um the NHS we’re we’re moving into new smaller teams in in icbs um and sad sadly um sadly losing some colleagues uh there’s a need a great need to Great need to focus on um prevention which is which is often hampered by
Um a kind of constant need to to to firefight and react um and on top of all that we’ve got a general election coming and um a possible change of government with um lots of new policies to come I’m sure um so so we’d like you now to um to
Take a quick poll which um which JP is going to start um to identify which of these areas you think will be priorities uh for you so so JP if you could start that poll please so brilliant thank you um and we’ll we’ll um come back to those results uh
Shortly my slides keep jumping forward back but okay um so at a at a previous webinar we um we discussed winter Communications and um I’ve been running uh a survey and doing a as part of some some some research that I’ve been doing and I
Think not going to dwell on this for too long because obviously we covered it in a previous webinar but I thought it’d be helpful to feedback some of those results and also winter is particularly relevant as we talk about planning for um a new Financial year um so thanks to
Everyone who took part uh we had roughly a 50 well we had exactly a 50-50 split actually between um people who who did the survey from the NHS and people from local authorities uh which is really good um we there is a there is there is
A prize winner and we will be informing the lucky Prize winner uh imminently um I’ve produced a a three-page report into the research which um I’m hoping will be helpful or useful for you and it might help you um yes so sorry I’ve produced a three-page report which which can
Hopefully be useful helpful for you and help you uh where where it’s needed to try and change the behavior of um of your senior leaders um and we will share this report with you um next week when we share the recording um but before that I wanted to share some of
The kind of key findings with you now um so so out of the people who did the survey just 40% actually had a budget for winter Communications in 23 24 and out of them um a third of them had the budget confirmed before the end of June
And unsurprisingly 70% of all the people who took the survey um would like the budget confirmed before then um because that that as we know allows us to to plan effectively and to um to to maximize their impact um there was some good news in
The survey so um shows I think this is real progress in terms of joining up a Communications across um across Partners so you know that nobody nobody said that um there was no joining up of messages which is really good um 50% said uh some sharing of winter messages across Partners 30% said
Um messages were coordinated across the local Authority and the ICB and 20% said uh messages were and activities were shared by all all Health and Care Partners in the system which is which is really good as well um some other kind of things that aren’t necessarily covered on this slide you
Know um and some of these might not be a great surprise to you but you know National messaging often arrives too late for us it’s we don’t get it in time to have impact it’s difficult to have um to have an impact with no budget um or
When the budget is received very late um some of us can be a bit reluct and I’ve done this myself when when we get a budget very late uh especially if we don’t get a budget for campaigns very often we’re a little bit reluctant to say that what we did didn’t work has
Hoped um but we need I think we we all need to be better at doing that and better at evaluating and sharing openly um with our leaders the outcomes um that way when our resources are limited we can we can kind of focus on on what we know um is likely to
Work um just on the right of the screen you can see um a case study that I’ve included with a little bit more detail um in in in the report but it’s I think this is a really really good Campaign which has has won um a couple of awards
Um for um so it’s shopshire and shopshire Telford and um Wrecking IC and I think it’s a great example of what can be achieved when um resources are identified early um their system is is an incredibly challenged one um you know kind of financially pressure-wise demand um all real pressures that that
You know are real to to lots of us but by being creative by being brave um their their team led by um Ed edma um buong have um have used Behavioral Science to achieve some really incredible results um with a relatively modest budget um and that relatively modest investment has brought a great
Return you know and you can see those results on the right hand side you know the 7% reduction in A&E increase in in minor injury activity increase in online activity decrease in ambulance and lost ambulance hours which which makes a massive cost saving you know um I think you know it’s it’s
Um it’s easy to come to the assumption that because our organizations are financially challenged we can’t get any money for comms but actually using the data and using the evidence and you know building your case for by showing demonstrating things like this in a way it could be an opportunity because you
Know that that that is a massive saving to the system there with a with a relatively modest investment um so so yeah I wanted to to share that campaign I’d quite like like to get edner actually to come to one of these webinars and um you know do go into a
Bit more detail about that campaign and about what they did because it is it is a really good example um yeah so so so that’s um that’s the winter coms and like I say you’ll get the um the three-page summary of that uh next week
Um so so moving on we promised to um we promised to give you a few um examples of um some tried and tested campaigns that could kind of help set you up for next year and um smoking cessation is is one of those so we um we’ve done a
Webinar on this this specifically and again the video of that is available um but just just very quickly you know some some things that that you know could be of use to you so there’s the um amazing things happen campaign of which you know can easily be adapted and you know um
Localized and and um re reused um in your area if interested uh had some very good results in London um N 9 million plus views almost 40,000 clicks um but but the most important thing for me is that um it it UCL did some research and they attributed um approximately 3,000
Extra quit attempts to um to the campaign um so that is something like I say that could potentially be easily adapted for your use if if there was an interest for that um other other ones that we we featured so so greater Manchester um they’ve um their they what will you
Miss campaign um uses great kind of powerful hard-hitting messaging for high dependency smokers and then um different messaging aimed at lower dependency smokers kind of gain-framed messaging um and again they found that out by doing doing lots of research and really really getting to know Their audience and
Developing their Insight which is um is key for any um any Behavior change campaign um I’ve also included on the slides and I’ll put the link links in in chat shortly um a couple of resources that um Ruth Dale from um the the um Behavior change marketing um has has put
Together uh so there’s a a guide um for communicators to um producing smokefree campaigns she’s also done a Blog and a really good um podcast with um eight top tips which were done for no smoking day which I know has just gone but you know if anyone’s looking to do coms around smok
It’s it’s well worth a listen it’s not very long but some really good tips in there um so um I’m going to move on to JP shortly but um I’m going to talk about measles and MMR which is obviously um very topical and um is is a priority
For a lot of us um we just to set the context a little bit you know we know that vaccination rates are down uh We’ve also as well as amongst children we’ve got a generation in their 20 whose um whose parents were influenced by the the Andrew Wakefield controversy
So there are a fair number of unvaccinated um young adults as well out there um and sadly we are starting to see outbreaks of measles which which um is a concern uh we also know that there is um significant inequalities when it comes to um to to to vaccination rates
Um but just um looking at now this research is a little bit out of date it’s pretty pre pandemic so but the the rsph did some research in 2019 um which which showed that 91% of parents agreed that vaccination is important for their child’s health um it
Then delved a little bit deeper and looked at some of the barriers what stops people you know if that’s the case well what does stop people getting vaccinated and a lot of it was you know kind of convenience things so timing of appointments availability of appointments child care and that sort of
Thing um um so for them it’s trying to trying to kind of um move them from intent to action and that that’s what you need to focus on um but then we we also know that um that that that research also found that 10% chose not
To give their child the MMR vaccine um and for 70% of them uh it was due to fear of side effects uh and 34% thought the diseases that it protect you protected you from aren’t serious um so there is there is some work to do around kind of um informing and and
Trying to change those behaviors as well um I’m going to hand over to JP who’s um got um an example of tried and tested creatives for for this topic thank you yeah so we’ve looked across um a number of campaigns specifically around MMR that we’ve run
Um trying to find uh examples of um the top performing creatives across the country um and I just wanted to share some of that uh data with you now these aren’t all the same at all um but uh it’s interesting to see maybe some common themes in the creatives that that
That work well um so multiple campaigns lots of data around different ads um and and and a number of campaigns running at similar times across the country um in Su they Ed this sort of child superh um Motif which we’ve seen in other places and this one happened to be a red
Theme um was the one that got interacted with the most um and um funny life it’s interacted with by um men much better than females usually men are about half half as likely to interact with an ad as females um but this ad back that Trend so the idea of protection and giving
Your children um superpowers um seems to seems to have worked well there um in uh other parts of the country using some of the centralized assets um and then tailoring them to Local communities this was one and again men interacted with this a lot more than average in in in in
Average campaigns um using animation um certainly helps um and certainly helps in terms of pushing views um this was bolstering Russell’s point about making um vaccination easy convenient and S so on um in Redbridge the highest uh interacted with um uh messages tend to be around um uh around Walkins so you
Tend to run an awareness campaign and then have highly geot targeted ads um Place one mile radius around that Walkin for a few days before or for however long the Clinic’s running um so we we always see these working very well but the best performing um ad was this one
Which was a central government created um animated and it’s now stopped animating um but we will we will share this afterwards um but that was by far um the most interactive with that it um generated about 7% interaction rate um which is something um it which is which
Is very rare um so an example of central government creatives um when they made with high production Val vales um working working really well at the local level so uh yeah did you want to go into physical activity yeah okay so I um I’ll take you now on to um uh apologies the
Yeah campign that we’ve been running while while JP is doing that just to set the scene I suppose um the I mean you know physical most of us I mentioned earlier about the need to to move on from firefighting and to focus on prevention and um you know physical
Activity is a is a is a massive area for us all you know there is um that that whole thing about you know um 20% of of um you know health and well-being can be influenced by services but actually the the rest can be influenced by by lifestyle itself and um
You know physical activity is a massive part in that and there’s some great research about half you know if people were more active for half an hour a day what it would do to reduce so many of the most common diseases so many of the things actually that we’ve just been
Kind of um selecting as as our priorities um and physical activity is a massive thing that we can’t solve within one organization as you know it’s something that we need to collaborate and need to collaborate with our partners on um and it I’m sure it’s a massive issue everywhere so um yeah and
Again I think you’ve got another example of um something that’s worked well that’s right so um in Richmond which is admittedly a more affluent area but um uh a campaign was run called Richmond moves um where they were promoting yoga walking um and cycling um and you could
See there in terms of interaction rates it was very much um the cycling creative um which worked which worked particularly well um I’m just going sorry prob move here um you could see that there were there were strong interaction rates everywhere however um if I can just get this to
Move um move a long one hold on I’m so sorry about this I’m going to stop sharing go here so this was the General um creative that was used um encouraging people um to interact uh and and and choose an array of activities that were possible in Richmond um but then this is
The creative that got the most interaction now it was use of imagery from Richmond Park so probably something that’s recognizable and an image that people could associate with um at at a local area and that’s why we saw those um excellent interaction rates with it um we also then um cross-pollinated
Between two campaigns there was a separate campaign in Richmond from their Leisure centers um and we used the audience that had sh own interest in um in in in the Richmond mov campaign and then started to put a whole array of different um opportunities for those audiences um to interact with you know
Swimming Fitness courses um hiring of pictures hiring of Courts even booking of children’s parties um and that ran afterwards now the Wonder thing about that was um they went from being at I think 50 60% occupancy to near 80 or 90% occupancy which was very good for
Richment in terms of having full usage of those and and then the income that would come out of that but it also meant that the um the Leisure centers um could share an outcome with public health it was sort of a win-win for both so we
Were able to take some of the outcomes for this and attribute it um to the activity that had been done before so in terms of cost per outcome absolutely fantastic um and and in terms of delivering a measurable outcome um that was also very very powerful um
Thinking about you know moving more it might be that um we’re thinking about moving people away or out of their cars particularly when you’re in more rural locations and that’s where promoting bus travel is another sort of Campaign which gets people out of cars gets them moving
A little bit more um and that could involve partnering with the local transport um organizations sometimes it’s in-house some times it’s owned by combined Authority but again a bit like with the Leisure centers and with the um mood more campaign um partnering with other organizations in the local area
Can lead to outcomes which when you take the ticket rates increases from certain populations could be attributed in a partnership campaign to Public Health um and there are messages around it being easy convenient and low cost to get the bus um those can also then cross-pollinate with shop local campaign
Um and and and many others um so just some examples there around approaches to uh increasing physical activity um from across the country now I come back to you thanks um so actually I’m just going to have a quick look at the results from the um from the first poll um and it’s
Interesting to see um so me mental health is the um the the highest scoring out of um out of all of those um those options and um that was the topic of our last webinar actually we had a really good discussion with um uh with with Sue
One of the um well the founder of uh the time to change campaign um which Again the video of that is available um but be really interested to hear you know that’s clearly a big prior mental health is clearly a big priority so if there are kind of other areas that you’d like
Us to cover or that you think we could try and work together on or you know solve problems together then please do let us know either in chat or you know by by all means um email me afterwards um and we can try and um line up and
Also if you if you know of good work that we you know we could highlight that that others can learn from as well do um do do let us know please um so then we’ve also got the physical activity is there I think um one of the highest vaccination that’s no surprise health
Checks is quite interesting actually that’s that’s come up quite High um and that’s that’s not something that um I’ve particularly focused a lot on it’s certainly not something that I’ve seen us pretty much resource to it’s something that is often talked about but um you know in the last few years other
Things have often superseded that um smoking sensation is obviously there that’s that’s that’s good to see and um yeah um and demand management again um yeah that that that’s clearly an issue and it has been an issue for as long as I’ve worked in the NHS but it’s a bigger
Issue now than it’s than it’s ever been um yeah okay um yeah so so we’d like to ask you a couple of other questions actually so um and and John Paul if you can start the the next poll um which is about what what what concerns you most about um about
Fulfilling your role in um in the next financial year what what’s kind of top of or the top few things of your um your Worry List um lack of resources yeah that’s that’s uh that’s clearly one um so yeah if I can get the rest of you
To just just put some some quick things in there um can we start more than one poll at a time John is that yeah okay so if you could start the other one as well please um so we’re also gonna ask this the next one has um a number of um responses but
It’s about which which what what could help you next year what which things um out of the list on the question could be um could be really helpful for you um so so again if I can ask you to to to fill that in you can select more than one of these um
Yeah shall we um give people a minute to do that John Paul should we yeah um should should we move on and talk about the next thing or should we should we just wait and just give it 30 seconds then yeah yeah thank you so much for for submitting
Because this helps us shape um how we plan future content um together um one thing that um stood out for me the last week was looking um listening to um an ad industry expert talking about the bias of communications professionals towards the big expensive things um and uh when when something’s you know
Radio TV something like that will’ll spend a disproportionate amount of time on it just because it’s expensive however one of the things um that doesn’t cost much and then unfortunately doesn’t get enough attention is around Partnerships um so drawing on what we saw around physical activity with the potential Partnerships with shop local
Transport climate Public Health um all around pushing increased physical activity um start to look look at well is that just limited to those fields or um are we are there more opportunities for collaboration I have the opinion that as time and resources um are shrinking considerably in um icbs and um and and
Certainly in public health and councils this could be one of those relatively light touch incredibly powerful strategies that um that we need to think about more and work so we’ve been spending time this year um looking into it trying to understand where the potentials are and what the barriers are
To working together um and so this is what we’ve put together to to to help you address that um so we we often hear um about audiences that that are the targets for campaigns um very frequently um lowincome households very frequently parents less frequently unfortunately young people um but there are all these
Campaigns targeted at these audien is almost throughout the year um and um we’re trying to sort of start to think slightly more holistically about um check din can everyone hear okay um about these campaigns that are coming up now we know they’re probably going to come up in the year um but how
Would one go about creating the connections between um these campaigns for example um looking at when MMR polio or flu campaigns are running which we know there are question for that now but maybe connecting those with um child care support family activities even parks and green spaces or taking
Campaigns maybe that targeting increased physical activity and connecting them with sports facilities and parks and Bre spaces like we’ve seen happening in Richmond um what about also looking at mental health um and helping young people who might be isolated um use you know the bus to to get them into work to
School and um and and to potentially more social occasions to improve that um when we’re looking for example at health checks often those are targeted audiences lower income households so why not cross-pollinate cost of living with health checks also we’ve seen cost of living campaigns doing a great job when
Partnered with with adult mental health campaigns um so as you start to build can actually say well adult mental health could potentially work just with parks and green spaces about walking every day and being out in nature which is known to improveed mental health but then taking adult mental health and encourage and
Giving people choice architecture um around um you know may maybe swimming is good for you or walking in the park or maybe there are um Leisure opportunities and events coming up that would help on that front um so that once you start looking into it um the opportunities
Become quite interesting but how do you navigate this as either you know working in public health Communications in a council um working then with with other people so we we’ve come up with this new sort of um collaboration event where we get and we ran one in January in
Nottinghamshire where we had the ICB um communicators from public health but also local colleges um fire ambulance police um uh basically people from across the public sector in a room together together um talking about uh one specific subject in this instance it was around engaging young people because
Notting was becoming a a child friendly city um and then looking at the various opportunities to collaborate and then almost matching and and and of dating different campaigns together and then at the end of the day coming up with plans to do that and one of the things that we
Created here was a um a map which we’ve been filling in and we’ll probably fill in a lot more once um once budgets are agreed in April but just so that everybody in that location could see who was doing what and when to then look for potential campaign cross-pollinations uh
Cross-pollination opportunities so it does require a bit of a commitment um but getting together in person um and focusing on a subject that’s really pertinent I think a lot around social mobility and in addressing inequalities in certain parts of the country at that kind of I CB level with Council partners
And an array of public sector Partners um together could be really powerful really exciting and so we’re speaking um to groups in uh North and and and South London also in West Yorkshire um and um Cumbria um and and a couple of other locations and putting these into place
For kind of May and June time um now can are are happy to fund these you know fund fund the location fund lunch um but we need people who are interested in this to let us know if they’d like to have one in their location um and then
Really kind of lead it with your public sector connections to help co-create the event that’s pertinent to everyone in in there and we’ll hopefully give people a bit of inspiration a bit of free training and learning but critically as well um end up with a set of plans um um
That can then be implemented hopefully plenty of time you know from June July to implement things around winter demand around vaccination around all these things that weigh on us and a a little tactic that Russell’s going to be deploying into these events is to get Senior Management um to attend the day
At the end to see the plans um and to give their tacet approval and buying um so that when you go back to your desk it becomes um a topic of conversation uh moving forward um what are the advantages of this approach well there’s certainly shared outcomes um there’s um
The need it creates the need for longer term planning and Senior buying is an earlier stage it might also make those plans a little bit stickier because they’re working between different partners so less um harder to deprioritize with other other reactive requirements it also means you get um
The advantage of co-creation also the use of other public sector assets the council is being particularly powerful in being able to use their web and digital Estates and out of home to support camp pays for very very low costs you also then get the ability to have measurable outcomes data coming
From Services coming from Parks leure centers buses um you know even even footfall management and traffic management into public health campaigns um so we believe there’s a lot there and the wonderful thing about it is it doesn’t require more money um it requires um the dedication of some time
Some extra communication with local Partners um and then um and and then can make the rest of it happen so if that sounds like something you’d like to do in your area in in May or June kind of time um please drop me and Russell a
Line and and we’d love to um to put more of these events in your calendar in the local area and that’s that’s it for me recent just um just just to add to that I mean from I’m a really strong believer in kind of working together um and I
Think you know the the challenges we all face it’s the only way we can actually you know we can actually make the most and maximize their impact um but actually you know it’s there’s there’s there’s collaborating and then there’s which you know or there’s there’s there’s sharing each other’s stuff um or
Actually sitting down around a table and problem solving and mapping out you know right this is a shared priority why are we doing our own work on this let’s work on it together let’s you know let’s let’s let’s solve that problem let’s pull our resources let’s you know plan
Together let’s let’s use all of our channels you know let’s let’s um I think you know that that is the The Way Forward um to you know across the NHS and local authorities that that that’s the way that I think we can we as as as a profession can really deliver value so
Um it’d be really good to try and you know help you on your way to doing that and bringing you know all of those Partners together or you’re on mute John because when we get to meet in person and uh and and have a nice lunch
Together and things like that but I I think as well one thing that we didn’t anticipate at the end um was um the the sense of hope and positivity um that people in the room had which I think is much needed at the moment um across the the public sector certain Communications
Community and and and Beyond um and and and giving people that lift just as we start to you know try to do even more with even less I think is really important yeah right um I’m just checking if there are any questions in the um in chat I
Don’t think I saw any actually um there Maria Jones talking about um yeah instructure combining mental health and well-being with the cost of living way work pages a brilliant trure and T Rec doing a lot of good stuff aren’t they um yes it makes so much sense and it makes
Um and it really works for people because the the drivers and triggers for many of these problems are interconnected um and I think that’s where communicators can add so much value um in terms of just making those connections yeah to to to achieve multiple positive outcomes hi Maria hi
Yeah hi yeah sorry I haven’t got I’m not Ving 100% today so that’s why I Haven got watch um just to just just to add to that the team are pulling together a tool kit that will go out to Frontline staff um it’s kind of like a making
Every contact C uh count but in terms of um things that they could be eligible for in terms of money and stuff so it will go out to lots of different people who obviously work with vulnerable people um so it will signpost them to a lot of different Services as well as
Checking that they are you know up to date with their eligible you know benefits and and other things like that and services that they could access as well so it’s kind of like a One-Stop shop of things so the team have just been pulling that together at the moment
And they’ll hopefully get a finalized one so happy to share that once that’s done if thank you if you wanted to see that we definitely do we’d love to see it and put it put it up in the hub for everyone to to get access done a really
Good job on it actually um it’s yeah really really good Happ thank you Mar could I also um next week it’s a slightly different field it’s not so much Public Health focused but it’s around um consultation engagement and co-creation and there is another brilliant example there of that on the
Ground Community Connection um activity that’s happening in Lambeth and we’ll have Graham sharing um how they did that um in lamp and it’s had staggering benefits for um health and well-being mental health conditions cleared smoking sensation so many benefits they didn’t actually intend for it to be quite as
Brilliant um uh in very happy that it did that there were so many unintended consequences positive consequences including one person is now um an elected member of the Cil many many wonderful things have started as a result of it so next Wednesday if you’d like to attend that just uh just drop me
A line and I’ll add you in right I think um we should probably wrap up for today then um yeah so thank you very much for coming um I wish you all a happy weekend when it comes and um yeah do do please get in touch like I
Said if there’s anything you want us to cover in um future topics um the next one of these webinars is going to be on Wednesday the 27th of March um so you should get an invite to that um to that soon um but yeah thank you very much and um all the best