“They cared more about stopping the Super League than stopping racism!” ⚽ Les Ferdinand | Up Front

On today’s episode, we are joined by a Premier League great who started off in non-league football and went on to become PFA Player of the Year.

Les Ferdinand enjoyed a successful and varied career playing for clubs such as QPR, Tottenham Hotspur as well as being part of the ‘great entertainers’ under Kevin Keegan at Newcastle United. After retirement he returned to West London and took up the role as Director of Football at QPR, becoming the first British black player to hold that position.

After stepping down last year ‘Sir Les’ as he is affectionately known joins the show to discuss his unconventional route to superstardom, opening up on his time at Tottenham and Newcastle, his turbulent tenure at QPR and the issues black former players are facing to find jobs in football.

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Warning: This episode may contain strong language. 18+ gamble responsibly.

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00:00 Introduction to Les Ferdinand
00:59 Les Ferdinand’s journey
08:29 Young players in 2024
11:16 Non-League to QPR
16:26 The chance to move to Man Utd
21:04 Moving to Newcastle & working under Keegan
26:28 Alan Shearer
33:20 Joining Tottenham
36:56 QPR Director of Football
50:24 Opportunities for black coaches
01:09:33 What’s next for Les Ferdinand

All supporters want to see players wear their heart on their sleeves give everything to their football club Kevin Keegan was a manager that wore his heart on his sleeve and everyone saw that as a weakness we warm up just me and him so as we we we start jogging he stops and

He says look I just want to say I can’t thank you enough to let me have the number n shirt I said listen mate not to where it’s done and he went to me I would have come no matter what number it was anyway right lovely you’re moveing to

The bom you’ve got your badges you’ve got yourself in a position where coaching be available to you why did you choose not to cuz I didn’t think I’d get an opportunity as a man that’s the honest TR this is up front with me Simon Jordan I believe there are a lot of

Vacuous uninformed unchallenged opinions out there I want to get to the bottom line and cut through the nonsense so with this podcast with William Hill I’m going to get people with strong views who think they can stand them up to proper scrutiny there’s a good chance I

Might learn something along the way and more importantly so might you joining me in today’s episode a striker whose career span two decades across 10 different clubs 149 Premier League goals along the way he was part of the Great entertainers from the Kevin Keegan era at Newcastle whil he became a

Cup winner with Tottenham Hotspur before more recently turning his attention from the pitch to The Boardroom at Queens Park Rangers Les Ferdinand welcome to up front nice to see you Les did I imagine this or did did I talk to you or did we talk to you in 2004 about coming to

No are you sure or did or did doy float it in my ear and it didn’t actually talk to you cuz I was under the impression that we you went to Bolton in 2004 didn’t you that’s right yeah yeah and I was under the impression that we’d had a

Chat with you no about coming to Palace no not at all okay stuff of myth I would I probably stayed in London if that was the case but I know we missed out that conversation didn’t happen at all um Les when we have these conversations one of

The first things that we do of whoever it is whether it’s a football or boxer or cricketer or a tennis player is get a little bit of understanding of their journey and how they got to where they got to now yours is born in Acton um

Born in the shadow or lived in the shadow of can I just change that not in Acton I was never born in act and I was born in lab grow lab oh much nicer much more wasn’t back then was it not okay wasn’t back then um but born within the

Shadow of greni towers which obviously over the recent years and times has been a subject of a lot of public about the conditions of that particular environment um was it always football for you was it always going to be football and was football something besides obviously this family Dynasty

That we now know about with your cousins and so and so forth was it a family background or was it something that you just lighted upon yourself it was something I lighted upon myself and probably not believing that I was going to be a professional footballer why I I

Was never allowed to go to football I was allowed to play football but I was never allowed to go and watch football why um my parents had an idea of uh football being a racist environment and a place that would be difficult for me to go right and be safe so that’s the

Early 70s yeah yeah so that’s for that reason when my dad came over to this country obviously there was he grew up in labber grov and you talk about Grill estate that’s where I spent majority of my life growing up um on on the grill estate um playing in a local side that

Put local side but before that you know my dad and his brothers and and you know used to have problems with Teddy Boys and skin heads and stuff like that so and I suppose back in the 70s uh you know football was Notorious for having skin heads they like wasn’t an

Environment where they you didn’t have many black pleasure cly best didn’t you just broken through yeah yeah so there were there wasn’t it wasn’t an environment where my my family thought I would be safe to go to so so then how does that progress for you so how that

Progresses for me doesn’t mean I don’t like playing football so I’m playing in in in my school teams I’m playing you know ining the playground with my my mates and then you know on the state that I lived on we we formed a a little

F side team that was we probably had the first female uh manager uh in a woman called Annie Mills who um used to take us because we were a group of boys used to just take us to play football uh we enrolled in in in a league and we used

To just play uh on a Sunday on a Friday uh five aside and and and that’s where the Love of the Game sort of like started for me but it it evolves isn’t it mhm and you then go into non- League football yeah why was the direction for

You not an opportunity with a professional club and you go into non- League stuff because I I like I went to to school in West London uh and at the time we was uh you know I I was in the same class as Dennis WIS at school oh

Really yeah hopefully you learn more than Dennis I was in the same class as Dennis at school and um Dennis was was he like at school a bloody pest he was a bloody pest but he was a a fantastic footballer and he was on the he was on the books of

Southampton for you I mean I remember having conversations with Stevie Bruce when he was at Palace about young players and the apprenticeships and I have a particular bug bear about the PFA um about what they do and don’t do and I I’ll use anything I can to bash them but um the

Idea that young players are treated in a certain way now and Steve wanted him to clean the gym and it wasn’t allowed to do stuff like that because that wasn’t what you did with young players now you came through non League do you think it gave you a head starts in terms of

Having the mental appreciation to know what the real world looks like rather than the football world yeah 100% 100% And I know that for the fact that when I went into when I went into Queens par Rangers there were a couple of boys that

Were as as you do when I when I went in I went in as a 19y old um and I’d seen that side seen the non leue side of been kicked about from the age of 16 um in men’s football um and I saw the rugged

Side of what what that was and when I went into to qbr there was boys that were perhaps not being given Pro contracts that were going yeah I’ll go and play n League football and I I’ll do this job or I’ll do that and I’m saying chaps you

Seriously don’t know what you’re talking about you really don’t want to do that you’re you’re in an unbelievable position at the moment don’t throw that away to to go and do what I’ve just come come from doing I’m telling you and you know it it took me a little while to to

To to adjust to being a professional footballer but these guys were talking about game the other way and don’t other did it also did it also make you um more appreciative of the elite opportunities because it feels to me like sometimes I watch Marcus rashford these days walking

Around like [ __ ] impending doom is happening to him and the world is a wonderful place to be a professional footballer it’s a huge opportunity do you think it made you have a bit more humility because it’s it’s one of those things that goes hand in glove with you

People talk about you in a way you know he’s a very genial fellow he’s a very polite fellow the rumor has it that you’re the only fell at Tottenham hospital that would pick his kit up and put it in the Box rather than leave it

For the kit man to pick up do you think that was part of what shaped or was it that personality just there anyway I think I think part of that was just shaped from what who I am and what I am and what I was growing up what I grow up

With with my parents my mom and dad and it was about having respect for people that was that was always the case but I certainly believe um doing what I did and going into what I seen what I saw as a a privileged situation being a professional footballer yeah you’re

Right made me a bit more humble made me a little bit more appreciative of what what where I was and what had you know it’s like anything if you if you’re if you grow up in an environment where you’re privileged yeah that’s all you know you get used to it and some of

These boys who come through football clubs who come as apprentices and never see the outside world all they have is that privilege so that’s their Norm that’s what they know that’s what they understand so you know you speak about rash rashford and yes you know I I agree

He’s walking around like he’s got the weight of the world on his shoulders at the moment um I’m not realizing that he’s causing a load of those problems himself but that’s been his environment since he was the age of seven and no matter what his family have gone through

That’s his reality I say to my kids I say to my kids all the time you know you ain’t gone through what I’ve had to go through your life has been very very different to mind in the way that you’ve grown up um but I can’t change that

Because that’s what I’ve done for what it is yeah yeah do you um do you look at the modern day I mean ultimately what are you you’re I think you’re a year older than me now you’re 57 aren’t you right yeah so I hate using the expression modern day because I don’t

Feel like an old man but it makes us feel this way doesn’t it but you look at this generation of footballers and look at the the pathway that you came through and look at the the opportunities and the world that they live in and think that they don’t really get it that

They’re getting it a lot easier than possibly your generation did your brand of player did and they’re getting far too muched far too soon 100% yeah 100% And and that’s not there that’s not bitterness that’s not um it’s it’s re it’s a reality you know you’ve got you

Know I remember having this had having this conversation with Ian right and we would we were talking and I said right how long was it be before you became a millionaire as a footballer and he spoke about the the times at Palace the goals the games at Palace PR D haml into then

He goes on to to to Arsenal and then he he scores has to score 20 odd goals a couple of time couple Seasons before he he gets that million pound contract I said the difference is you got kids that are million millionaires who’ve never played in the first

Team so that’s the you know that’s the reality yeah you know so they ain’t having to work too hard to get what they’ve got and so how change changes the characters doesn’t it because I don’t know what you think I mean money is a commodity and everybody goes to

Work for money and that’s the the choices that we make to be have a better life outside of the work that we do I often think that if you give people too much too soon it takes away a lot that’s why I think about the characters we see

Maybe the game’s changed and it doesn’t allow for so many characters but I think that side of things takes away people’s ability to overcome adversity y their preparedness to to do to do things that they don’t want to do and that for me I think affects the game and doesn’t make

It a better place that was probably the hardest thing for me um as a director of football yeah um seeing people not appreciating where they are what they’ve got and how much of it they’ve got thinking that this is the and not having to fight and work hard to to to to get

What they’ve got that was one of my major bug bears with Ian right um we used to be quite good mates but not so much these days um but I asked him to come and do some um striker training at Palace when I was there and you know get

In right and do some Striker training with the players they’re going to fall over themselves aren’t they and just in just you know they some of them are young kids don’t drive in in a Ferrari that doesn’t help me in comes the Ferrari you know um but but there we are

Um stepping up from non League to QPR I mean how how difficult was that at the time I didn’t realize how difficult it was and um you go from sort like buying match shoot magazine and looking at looking at these you know reading these things and

Then all a sudden you’re in it you’re in it and then you’re in an environment of I mean when I the first game always remember this I was I I I was going to work my notice at the place I was working at okay um and there was a game

During the week uh qbr versus Southampton at Southampton and I had to ask for the time off so I could go and play in the game um because I suppose of who I am and and how I’ve grown up I honor I honor my my contracts obligations and obligations so I was

Like I was going to work my notice most people would have said to the we talking about off well that says a lot about you I turn up I turn up it l this righto the the coach is outside the first person that walks out to greet me and and and

Says welcome and good luck was Sammy Lee and I’ve never ever forgot that he was the first person that um came out shook my hand and he said uh you y newon I’m expecting Sammy Le to know Les fand you know me this little kid off where was

Sammy at Sammy was at QB was he yeah Sammy Le was at qbr at the time yeah played that first game and I always remember getting smashed in the game by Jimmy case and um of course I mean you know about Jimmy andman anyway he tackles me and I remember crumling on

The floor and he says welcome to professional football young man and that was my introduction to to keep you ey Joe Francis talked about you didn’t he and and about your ability season about the fact that he felt that you could be an England player you said I can’t even

Get in a [ __ ] team how you how’ you see that one was he I mean I knew Joey Francis obviously because when I grew up as a palace fan Jerry had gone you know been England captain in 76 with Don Revy hadn’t he then gone into palace it was a

Big signing when Palace got promoted under to venal and Jerry Frances had gone in there and then I watched his career obviously as he developed and and became a manager under his Tut at QPR they did significant things but how important for you was Jerry Francis you

Know people often say to me you know who who of all the managers youve worked under who was the who was the the best golden and I think different managers come at different times in in your career that help you um golden Mill was obviously a massive help to me out in

Turkey um because he was because I was the only English uh kid fellow out there I was the first British player to play out in Turkey he um he spent he was able to spend some time with me and then I came back and it gave me a renewed

Confidence and then obviously Trevor Francis was um was was quite pivotal as well because was he what he did he gave me my first opportunity he gave me my first real opportunity and I scored against Chelsea um I scored two goals against Chelsea and I thought I’m on my

Way here and then Trevor was gone and Don took Don Hal took over for a bit and and I always say Don was one of the best coaches I ever work with so he took over um and I remember sort of like scoring my first couple of goals for for for for

Qbr tror Francis leaving Don takes over and very we at the day the day I scored my two goals uh Mark Falco scored Colin Clark scored so all the center forward scored but they we’d sign Roy wgan on that on that day oh okay keep you time Roy Wy for a

Million pound on that day so went to Blackburn didn’t he that’s right so the very next weekend we play cheffer Wednesday away and I remember after 45 minutes coming and d r right I’m going to make a change and I knew it was me I

Knew it was coming and as he as he as he said Les you come off Roy you’re going to come on I went to say something Ray Wilkins stood in front of me yeah and I always remember him saying this and I’ve never forgotten it I’ve used it a few

Times to Sly as he said whenever you’re doing well in this game there’s always someone that will kick you in your bollocks don’t say anything right now he stood in front of me said I couldn’t say anything and I said to him okay okay okay and he said and he

Put his hand he put his arm around and he went just don’t say anything anyway so I left it and then as you said Jerry came in you know done lasted till the end of the season Jerry came in and again he said to me lot I’ve tried to

Sign you at Bristol on on numerous occasions I tried to sign you I try to take you online they wouldn’t let wouldn’t let me do it he said I see you playing for England and as I said as you just said there I can’t even get this

[ __ ] team at the moment am I going to play for England you know what I mean and then and um and you know Jerry was like Jerry never looked at you always looked you know always looked away uh he goes I’m telling you now you’ll play for

England so I said okay no problem and so he was absolutely pivotal in terms of my career at QPR and and taking me to a level and I probably stayed at QPR longer than was probably right for me yeah but the reason I did that was because your relationship with Jerry

Each year I felt I was learning off of Jerry yeah and I thought that and I always said that the minute I felt i’ stopped learning was the time to to to move on so you’re now at stage you’ve been at QPR for six years you said yourself probably with the benefit of

Hindsight you stayed a little bit longer than you should have done and that’s primarily because your relationship with Joey Francis and now you make a move you take a move but before you get this move to Newcastle I understand you had an opportunity to go to man united MH and

Ray Wilkins was kind of blocked that or had something to do with stopping it which kind of is ironic giv any F play for Man United is there any truth in there yeah well what basically happened was um I get I get a call from uh Razer

One Sunday and he says and he says to me um look I’ve been on the phone with Sir Alex and um they want to sign him uh and he said look you’ve done everything you can do at qbr yeah he said um his words to me were when the best team in the

Land comes calling you’ve got to go yeah so I said okay he said look they’ve tried to sign you before and Cub always said at the end of the season at the end of the season which is too late so um he said look what’s going to happen

Tomorrow you’re going to get uh the club’s going to get a fact I’ll let you know and then you can speak to the chairman and that’s exactly what happened the next day fax comes in speak to the chairman who was done at the time Richard Thompson and he he turned around

He said um I said uh chairman I understand you’ve had an offer from Man United and he said I you know and I said well one of the secretaries at the club have told me you so which one I I ain’t going to tell you what you thinking of

This time you’re thinking [ __ ] man think yeah I’m thinking yeah do you know what I mean and and so anyway uh he says to me okay do you want to go and I said chair you know mean there’s not many clubs in the in the land that would go

Right halfway through the season I’m going to leave for but you know mean this this might be an opportunity never comes around again so he says no I get that he said let me speak to Jerry uh and I actually went I did a a talk with Jerry about two years ago

Where he he he he tells this story and um anyway chairman says right let me let me speak to Jerry Speaks to Jerry and Jerry says well I’m going to resign right so anyway he goes to he goes to he comes back to me and he says look I’ve

Got some bad news Jerry’s going to resign and he said and I can’t lose my my my manager and my Star Center forward in the same in the same week so I said I I get that anyway it happened that’s a difficult one for you though is it you

Got this relationship with Jerry yeah and all of a sudden you’re this is the biggest Club in English football this is the club that’s now got his engine started right exct and he’s winning the Premier League and off it’s yeah and and Jerry sort of put n kaios on it yeah

That must have been a bit of a conflict for you no the truth is Jerry never said to me if you go I’m going to I’m going to leave it’s what he told the chairman right so anyway so you’re not privy to that I’m not I’m not privy to that part

And um anyway uh Jerry resigns chairman calls me up says look there’s uh Jerry’s going blah blah blah blah blah what you know basically we we need to do something and he says um I’ve got I’ve got a bit of a plan oh I’m going to see

If this plan comes to frish and if it does might pave the way for you going so he goes and he speaks to he says I think I’m thinking about getting Ray back and I think all right brilliant I said cuz the thought was Lov Ray um as a player

And as a man at qbr so it’d be an ideal shoe in for Jerry so anyway he comes back and he says to me you know about a week or 10 days later comes back he says look I got some some good news and bad

News he says Ray agree to come back I said fantastic the fans you going fans will love that he said but ly come back on one condition is that you um that we don’t sell you and I go what are you talking about because I’m thinking this is the G

That’s called me and said you know you’re going so anyway Ray comes through the door knock on his door so Ray what’s you know what’s going on there he said Son I’ve taught you the most important lesson in life said what’s that he said you always look after number one

First never fell out with him right um respected the decision I’m I’m I’m I’m a firm believer that’s what meant what’s meant to be in life will be I’ve always lived my life that way and so I must have been I mean I mean that’s a nice

Way to look at it and that’s the that’s the only way I could look at it really only way I could look at it because otherwise what you’re going to do you’re going to throw your toys out the BR because that’s what they do yeah that’s

What footballers do at times I mean you must have been a real exceptional um individual to have not done that You’ got the biggest Club in English football that’s kicking ass and taking numbers now yeah that’s alive and thriving yeah um and and I imagine the commercial benefits and economic

Benefits to you would have been significant as well wasn’t thinking about that well okay so you move you moved to Newcastle at the end of the season yeah so Ray gets you for another four or five months and ultimately then QPR get a decent fee 6 million quid 95 not bad

Though is it no what was it about Newcastle that attracted you was it Keegan Keegan was a major major a major uh part of that but I think I always remember playing against uh Newcastle for QPR um one year and we beat him 2-1 I always remember

And I always say I always felt Newcastle fans are like Liverpool fans in terms of if you go there and you play well they’ll love you they’ll clap your team off the pitch if they feel like you’ve given their their team a good good SC to or if you’ve played well against their

Team they’ll clap you off they’ll appreciate your football and um I remember coming off the pitch walking up tunnel going in change rooms and saying to the boys can you imagine playing in front of that week in week out so that that was already in my head um I didn’t

Know I was going to go to Newcastle but then when Keegan called up and I had a conversation with him and he told me where they wanted to take the club uh what they wanted to do um I felt if there was anyone I was going to learn

From him and become a better player it was going to be him what was your take on Kevin obviously the criticisms comes Kevin’s Kevin’s way after the England job and the perception of technical capabilities that were not there um and I think that may be a little bit unfair

But your experiences him because there’s no doubt that his enthusiasm and we’ll go onto one particular enthusiastic Outburst you have heard 100 times before yeah but your experience going into that Keegan environment the great entertainers and all that went with it what was that like I mean going in and

And and seeing who we had and what we had um and the way that we wanted to play and the way he got us playing was as a center forward it was a center forwards dream we was all at attack yeah and you know when people talk about the

Ta tactics and we didn’t our tactics were you score two we’ll score three you score one we’ll score two um and I think that works and that worked for us for a long period in the season but I think to win the Premier League at times you need

To win a game one nil and just be gr out and grind it out and we weren’t able to do that um and does that come down to Tactical awareness probably uh probably a little bit of that but because we we’ done so well on the front foot we just

You know just felt we would get back to that and we would do that and we’d do that but eventually you know you come on stuck and that’s what happened to us this team this Newcastle team that everybody they were almost like everyone’s second team weren’t they because of the brand of football

Everyone was willing them on bottled it yeah yeah yeah bottom line yeah yeah you know when when when when you take away everything um and and and skin it all back yeah that’s what we did you know that’s that’s the bottom line we bowled

It in the end is there any I mean I I understand that you lose a few games on on on in a row which then unwinds the psychology but is there any ever a time when a casual response or a Blas response is actually a way to manage a

Situation rather than panick to it well we probably we probably felt that we probably felt that you know losing that let’s not panic yeah all right we’ve lost we know we can play a lot better than that let’s not panic and that’s probably where we where we were as a

Group you know I mean we’re we KN we looked at each other and felt we’re good enough as a group of players we know how well we can play because we’ve shown at the start of season how well we can play we’ve got to this position because of

How well we can play we haven’t all all of a sudden became come a bad team overnight and that was probably where we you know where you say is it is there is there a point where you don’t take it too seriously when I say don’t take it

Too seriously you don’t you don’t look into it too much you just go right okay yeah I’m right we’ve lost that but listen we talk about the Casual Blas a nature potentially with the hindsight Kevin’s wasn’t though in that interview was it that was a that was a rant yeah

That wasn’t someone being Blas that was someone being affected yes and at the time always saying know you know when people put people often say to me how do you guys react to that to to that rant and that that’s going to be my next question

Now I always say as a as a as a player all supporters want to see players wear their heart on their s give everything to their football club they can live the rest can’t they most of the time Kevin Keegan was a manager that wore his heart on his sleeve and

Everyone saw that as a weakness because they felt Alex fergen had won the psychological games because he had that rant but Kevin was just someone who wore his heart and his sleeve and had to let people know how he felt and so when when we saw it we we we

Actually didn’t see it until we got home played leades and never forget it and then at the end you saw the rant by Kevin Keegan and and we went in the next day and all the boys were saying all the time was we’d love it we’d love it if

You did this and and no one saw it as a weakness in Kevin at the time you know I don’t think there was a player in in the squad at the time that saw it as a weakness we just saw because we knew Kevin we just saw it as him wearing his

Heart on his sleeve um but everybody else start to go off Fergie won a psychological battle and and just sort of like embedded into us and um we as you said in the end at the end of the day you know the cold lighter day the

Word that you used that we bottle it was probably the right word yeah we bold it here’s the here’s the tacit acceptance question you’ve just smashed in 29 goals right you’ve got the gravitas of being you’ve understood what it was like for malcol McDonald what it was like for

Jackie Milbourne you get the Dynamics of what it’s like to be Newcastle Center forward Alan Shir walks through the door and I was PFA player the year and you’re a PFA player of the year right so you’re flying right Alan Shir walks through the door and you’re here go mate is my

Number nine share yeah how’s that work didn’t quite go like that well tell me so so basically um we we’re going on preseason tour yeah we’re going to Thailand to Singapore and Japan and we’re in aort as as normal we all turn up and then all a sudden um I’m thinking

Right we’re going AB board I’m probably need to load up with a few bits and pieces so run up run up to go towards duty free then T dur comes running up the escalators after me says a gaffa wants to speak to you so yeah well get

Him come speak to me in Duty fre cuz like you know I mean he’s coming through I’m going to get some stuff I’ll speak to him in there says no no no he might not be getting on the plane what you talking about so he just checked in he

Said no no yeah I quite checked in said he just wants to see downstairs cly so I come back down the stairs and and he’s Kevin standing his little Al Cove brings me standing the AL Cove and he says to me um look we’re going to sign um it

Looks like we’re going to sign alen Shir today world record fre 15 million pound blah blah blah blah blah says okay he says um I went brilliant he goes I want you to be the first to know he said because what you’re going to do is as

Soon as we sign him we’re going to hear rumors that you you two can’t play together and you’re going to be leaving Newcastle he says I want you to know um I’m not trying to prove anybody wrong I just believe you two will make a dynamic peing up front so whatever you here

You’re not leaving this football club said okay brilliant thanks for let me know so I went go walk away and I said that’s great what time is it that happen and he goes He he’ll be joining us on preseason so I okay bril go walk away

And he turns around he says to me um one one more thing I see what I said he said he’s asked for the number nine shirt and I said what did you say and he said well I said look I I I’ll ask Les he said it’s it’s a hard

Thing he scored 29 goals it’s a hard for him but I’ll ask him he said cuz I know you know he said but Alan’s warned I’m a n all his life I went sou High yeah I about to say all this time I’m looking at him and I’m thinking he’s talking to

Me and I’m thinking to myself I’ve never stood on the on the gallate and and supported the the the fellow that’s worn the number n I’ve never stood on ela’s end and supported the fell that’s worn the number N I know Alan’s done that he’s coming

Home at the time I thought but it must have been a part of you was thinking [ __ ] off yeah no yeah yeah there there was there was a part there was a part of me but then as as I’m as I’m as I’m going through this with Kevin I’m

Thinking about and the mere fact that you come and asked me means you want him to wear the number n shirt he went no no no he goes look he said you know obviously he’s asked for a few brings he’s ask can he take penv to ask Peter

Said you just said I was the first player you’ve told okay what so like smart right so so we was having this discussion so anyway I said listen mate you’re you’re the manager of this football club you made the decision you’ve come and asked me this question

You mean means you want him to have the number n shirt that’s what you got to do I took off and I went I went to I went to uh Singapore so when we land in in in in Singapore obviously all the players know that alen signed and then

All of them are saying to me you’ve given up the number n shirt you’ve given up the number n shirt have you have you sold it to him I said no I kind like I didn’t actually go through the story that I I had with Keegan and so

Um read the team Sheet out and um they go Nan Ferdinand so I said Terry MC says n f Keegan standing said you taking a piss he says what so you taking piss out me he said what are you talking about so you just said third 9 so she’s going

Yeah I know but and I went I [ __ ] wearing a number n shirt you just take you’ve just taken it off me so Peter Bley and if you ever see if anyone ever sees the game I we the number eight and pet a number nine right

So anyway um we played the game and and stuff and then Alan flies over the next day and then um Keegan says to me um I want you to uh I want you to go training with Valen I just try with we played the game and we done and warm down in the

Morning Allen turns up in the afternoon he says want you go to do a training session with alen said what are you talking about said I’ve TR i’ played and i’ play of training on he goes I just want you two to get to know each other I

Said I’ve just spent a month with him at [ __ ] Euro 96 yeah I don’t even know him any more than I know I know I know Alan we we get on well so he says okay no problem anyway alen comes and we we go out and do this this little uh we

Training session but we warm up just me and him we’re running around just a little jog round and Pitch to warm up we going some stretching and some finishing so as we we we start jogging he stops and he says look I just want to

Say I can’t thank you enough let me have the number n shirt I said listen mate not to worry it’s done and he went to me and then as we started Jing off he went I would have come no matter what number it was anyway so so but you know that that is

That is just football banter he was like I would have come whatever number it was but like like I said those those are the things that went through my head was Shar better Striker than you I think when you look at the sheer amount of goals that that Allen scored

You’d have to say he’s the top goal scorer in the Premier League um I always remember Kevin Keegan saying to me that’s not the question let me ask you let me let let me give it to you another way so and that’s that’s down to people

To judge right but well I’m asking you because you know you you you were a top Striker he was a top Striker he’s a Premier League’s record goal scorer he’s at Newcastle he’s got your number nine shirt he’s the world record transfer I think what happened at the time right uh

The manager said to me before Alan came to to to to Newcastle he said to me you can do everything that Allan can do but Allan can’t do everything that Les ver9 can do right what’ you make it that then you tell me that’s what he said to

Me I’m asking you what you make of it so when it came to it he wanted him to have the number n so that’s that’s where it was was I better his his goals would tell you that no wasn’t a better Striker than what do you think what did I think

At the time I I I never thought that I wasn’t going to play right at Newcastle when when they when they signed Allan I never ever thought that I wasn’t going to play does that answer your question quote unquote Les Ferdinand says he a better Striker than

Year so you talked about it being your worst decision but you also talked about from what I can understand as you met Alan I’ve known Alan sugar for years and I like Alan he’s inquired taste but he’s also a very very credible operator right and you kind of believe what he

Says when he says it but what was different about what Allan told you to what you experienced because I get the impression reading between the lines that it was well not reading between lines this is your expression Tottenham were a club in unbelievable termoil yeah

Was Jerry F is a big draw as well yeah Jerry Jerry was a massive draw um you know like I said it was the team supported as a boy um speaking to Alan um when I did come down and actually speak to him and when I say it was when

I say it was the worst decision I said it was the worst decision for my football in career not the worst decision for me but as a as a footballer and where the club was at the time in terms of you know I’d gone like I think

Three seasons scoring 20 odd goals for for uh for QPR um in all competitions and then going to Newcastle and scoring so had five seasons on sping scoring 20 odd goals season and then I went to Spurs and it just you know it dried up

Yeah I had a few injuries but the the club was you know one of the things I I say to people why when I got there we were sponsored by Pony and that was quite apt okay that was quite AP why now I went to I went to Tottenham who I

Would have thought was on a par of with Newcastle in ter in terms of the way they did things way it wasn’t it was so so different so so different I mean they they’ built their own training ground a new training ground and it the changing

Rooms are like going in the the Hackney marshes and I I remember saying to I said you’ve just built your own training ground youve built training rooms like this you know I walked into the the um the medical room and that was probably the only room that was the mo that was

The most comfortable room at at the at the training ground they had about six beds TVs on the thing no wonder everyone’s injured at this football club got TVs in the in the in in too comfortable it was too comfortable people reading papers in the in the it

Was just everything about the training everything you know Jerry was Jerry was the manager then everything the organization I me always remember my first day of training pre preseason I walked out there was a group of players in one corner um doing keep upes there was another group in another Corner over

There there was another few players over there in in the corner over there and it we there used to be a like a slope um and it was there was a couple of boys lying on the slope waiting for the managers to come out and I thought what

The hell have I come to too yeah I thought what the hell come to you know I’d been warned you know a couple of players had said to me lesz Tottenham ain’t what you think it is and and to be fair when I spoke to alen he knew it

Wasn’t what he wanted it to be and he was trying to change that and he felt someone like myself coming in and the the players might all been there for 10 years by that time hadn’t he yeah but he made a load of changes and he was trying

He was trying to change it and he how’ you get with sugar um I always had a lot of respect for Alan and I thought I go I got remember quite well um I spoke quite highly of him and I I said where Tottenham is today I I felt he put the

Foundations in place to take it to where it where it is today I know he had a load of problems with with the late Terry venal so on but I think he put the foundations in place for Tottenham to go to where it is but he says what he means

He yeah whether you like it or not but you know he down right exactly I’m going to skip past after Spurs Spurs finishes you there six years it’s not a resounding success for you no by the way how do you feel about your England career um I felt at my height um you

Know Terry venal had made the decisions that Alan sh was going to be his number one choice Allan went was it I think 19 games without scoring yeah two years on it you know without and and never never really getting the opportunity and and again it was it was it was kind of

Strange because every time I came to play or got an opportunity to play it was it almost felt like this was my last chance and I think well hang on a minute just just afford me the same opportunities that you afford someone else we’re going to go on to now your

Move into the balroom and your relationship with QPR but just out of curiosity before I do that why didn’t you decide to continue you’ve gone you’ve gone and got your badges which is a criticism that I have of a lot of players and we’re going to get onto that subject about diversity and

Representation and the statistics behind that but you’ve got your badges you’ve got yourself in a position where coaching can be available to you why why did you choose not to because I didn’t think I’d get an opportunity as a manager that’s the honest truth all right well we’ll talk about that in in

More detail in a bit bit later on but let’s talk about the decision to go into because you’ve got an opportunity now MH at QPR and it’s a ballroom opportunity so it’s a position of influence and power yeah and one of the things that that that is argued about ethnicity

Being given the opportunity you’ve been given it why were you given it uh simply because I had a conversation with an ethnic minority owner who Tony Fernandez yeah yeah um you believe that dude by by by by just by chance um I I was I was on

Holiday in barley and um uh at the time my my friend uh good really good friend of mine Tony um looked after 50 Cent 50 Cent was singing at Tony’s daughter’s 2 or rapping at Tony’s 21st uh daughter’s 21st birthday so my mate called me and we was having a conversation Tony said

To him are you talking to cuz he said he mentioned Les a few times and he goes are Ferd he let me speak to him so he came on the phone and he said look we’ve been trying to bring you back to qbr for

For a long time I said well I’m not the hardest person in the world to get out of town if you want to so we had a conversation we met up in in Jakarta and we had a conversation he said to me where is it you want to go in in

Football and I said look I’ve done the applied management course in in in in the L LMA applied management course and I said you know the director football is something I’ve looked at for a while and thought there’s not enough footballers that do this this position um and it’s it’s something

I’ve looked at I said I think I struggle to get a job as a manager um going forward so maybe this is an Avenue to look down uh and so what do you think then I mean what do you think a director of football should be the for me the

Role should all Encompass you a manager comes in into a football club and if you look at the the tenor of a a manager should you be appointing the managers yes yeah you should be you should be part of that process right you you deal

With the finances in terms of you know I had a very good CEO in Lee Lee so we work together in terms of the finances he tell me the numbers that we got to work with the the the CFO Ruben Gandy used to tell me the numbers that

We got to work with and that’s how we had to incorporate what we did and we would sit down and say right we do it this way this way this way this way you know the finance director I’d say right these are the numbers how can we make

This sexy enough for this player to come to QPR right um so it’s management recruitment it’s recruitment of players it’s disposed players y it’s meeting budgets yep style of play style of play yeah you have to have that you know and and and when you sit down with the

Owners that’ll go hand in hand with a recruitment and manager exactly that’s what that’s what you’re looking for is this all the way down is this down in from the first team down into the academy academy into the 18s all the way down cuz what basically happened is when

I went into qbr we we needed to change we uh one of the things that we we we spoke about was we could no longer go out and spend money on on players in the way that they had been in the past um when I joined qbr the wage bill was 7 76

Or 78 million yeah cuz you you well you come in 14 15 that your halfway through yeah and they just got Neil took them up 13 14 y 14 15 it’s all over the place in it Harry signing people like Christopher sber on ridiculous money right and you

Coming halfway through don’t you yeah yeah and so you knew you knew Q were going to get relegated you knew they they had a budget of 70 odd million uh a year and at that time they probably had one asset in the team who was that Charlie Austin Charlie

Austin Charlie Austin was the only player when I went into QR that you could probably look at and think because of the wages he was on which wasn’t as much as some of the other guys that you could sell and make a profit on Charlie Austin the rest of them weren’t going to

Leave the football club because the wages that they were on the wages that they were on were were were were ridiculously high they weren’t going to earn those money that that money anywhere else so that means you had you had zero assets at your football club

And now we would now was being told we we need to reject we need to reduce you experience L to go into that position because it’s a big it’s a big departure for you is it no of course not of course I didn’t have the experience but what

The what the club wanted to do in terms of start developing from the the academy because that’s where they needed to go yeah um I felt we the the the the the skill set do you but you’ve got this let have a look at the record as as a director of

Football QPR get relegated 14th 15th 20th right go down statistics will tell you most clubs that come down with parachute payments end up going back up within a three-year cycle QPR go 12th 18th 16th 19th 13th 99th 11th and 20th so I think that’s about an average position of about 14th

Or 15th in the league which is nowhere near where you’d expect them to be right you’re the director of football you’re responsible for the recruitment mhm you’ve got some handcuffs on you economically yeah but not withstanding that you know you do spend some money not huge amounts right um you’ve made appointments

Managers how is this successful so let’s let’s look at um and you know when you you you talk about the inexperience and so went into the club and and where the inexperience probably happened was when I uh when I went in and Harry left um Chris Ramsey took over as um uh interim

Manager and what happened was one of the owners asked me do you think Chris could keep us in the championship next season not talk we’re not we’re not talking about promotion we’re talking about just keeping us in the championship reason being is we got a group of players that

We need to get out on big money and because they knew the fine was coming and all that they needed to reduce the wage bill so I said if you’re talking about just keeping you in a championship I think he’s got the capabilities to just keep you in the championship now

Where my prep’s naivity was was not realizing that the amounts of money that the players that were on that we needed to get rid of was on that we couldn’t get rid of those players Not only was it the fact that no one was

Going to buy them the fact is no one was going to pay their wages so for two seasons we were just reduce trying to reduce the weight because we needed to get down below 20 million but some of these players weren’t going and the ones

That were going we had to pay to go pay up yeah yeah so in terms of you get the parachute payments and you think that that parachute payment you can you can invest to get you back up again we can do it that’s the same for everyone

Though is it it’s the same for every club that gets relegated they come down with rotten horable wage bills that they can’t afford but most of them most of them have got players that can take them back up again and they just add to it

Right I mean I’m not I don’t want you to be overly controversial just for controversial sake but you’re the director of football inheriting this you got a team that’s in the Premier League how can a team go down with no assets whatsoever that have got no value to the club what every club

That goes down you know soton go down out goes Jo James Ward PR when I got relegated uh with Palace I kept adding Johnson but that was the perceived reality was an Johnson was going to leave and he didn’t but most of the time the top players get sold to be able to

Bridge the gap QPR has nothing like I said to you Charlie Austin was probably the only one at the time that you could probably sell for any amount of money respect to Charlie all due respect that’s not top end either is it but that’s what I’m saying this is this is

What you had so my analysis in your view because it’s a sweeping analysis and I expect you to rebut it cuz I look at it and go if I’m looking at this as my director of football and and I’m taking in the unique circumstances at QPR and I’m trying to

Put myself in that situation but over an 8e period I’ve just gone Les tell me about this 12th 18th 19th 16th 13th 9th 11th 20th this is on your watch yes and I’m saying that doesn’t look like success to me not because I’m trying to

Be ass so clever with you I’m trying to get the flip side of the argument for you to say to me well this is the reasons why and what you’re saying is I’m working in an environment where for several years we’ve got no control of our own destiny economically to be able

To change the landscape I can’t change the playing s because the players that are sat there and I remember some of the names um ain’t moving because no one’s going to pay a transfer fee for them and no one’s going to pick up the wages even

If I let them go on a nothing yeah and and and and and they ain’t gain on or nothing you have to pay them up as as you as you spoke about a million a half million a half million so that money that parachute money that you’re talking

About most of it goes on paying these guys up to get the loers aren’t skin are they no but you but because of the the finial fair play they’re not allowed to put the money into the club right but once they’ve had the sanction yeah but that you’re still you’re still you’re

Still governed by the the financial Fair million still caring his wages yeah so you’re making sure that you you and you know Simon I sit down sometimes on the think you know what would have been the ideal for qbr to get relegated and get relegated again into League one really

Yeah that would have been the ideal because you would have got rid of those players and the sanctions in in in League one are very different to what they are in the championship in terms of being able to build a side and come back stronger that probably would have been

The best but we were trying to survive in in the championship and the owners were saying to me Les we just need to survive we just need to survive but obviously in my in my head I I want C to get back to the Premier League Of course

And what’s the best way to do that now in terms of managers coming through the door yes we had we had a very uh democratic system in in place I’m going to ask you next how much autonomy did you have in making these appointments so

What so what we did was we would we would sit down and we would myself and Lee Hughes would go out and interview x amount of managers and then we whle down this is the best five yeah and then the owners would come in on the interviews

And then they would then they would give an we’d all give an opinion on who we thought was the right one okay so on that basis when you were lighted upon you would have an opinion how many times because we’ve got them here we’ve got Chris Ramsey we’ve got Jimmy Floyd

Hassel Bank just out of curiosity two the first two managers black managers Y is is that your influence did you do it on purpose or was it just a circumstance circumstance so Chris Ramsey takes over as uh intering manager when Harry leaves yeah um after Gary left in February or

They asked you a question can he keep in the championship and you V and I said Thank so we’re we’re in the Premier League at the time yeah but the next season I asked can he keep can they keep us in the championship and I said if

It’s just keep us in the championship then I he’s capable of doing that I I really beli that his coaching eement would would keep us in the Prem league but then we couldn’t get rid of the players that we thought we were going to

Going to be able to get rid of right so all of a sudden we’ve now got this still we still got this massive W we’ve still got these massive players and then one of the owners comes to me and says we we probably need to try and get promoted so

I turn around and say well Chris a man to get you promoted no so hence Neil Warner comes in who they they’d had a good relationship with yeah right but Neil had come in with the Proviso that he could only stay for a certain amount

Of time um he needed to go on holiday with his wife a couple of times but he could stay for a period of time um so I said okay no problem um what we’ll have to do is we we we we’ll look around for a new manager and that’s what we did we

Interviewed we we went through the same process and at the time of interview uh employing Jimmy Floyd hassle Bank he had the best win ratio of any manager in all the divisions at Burton yeah he had the best win ratio but no one looks at that

Because when I sat down in in the press conference to do my press conference the first question was is are you employing him because he’s black because I’ve done it with Chris fr well now actually he’s got the best win ratio of any no I know mean I like Jimmy

I I’ve met Jimmy number of occasions I think he’s very engaging I think he’s a decent blog and obviously I saw his record I have to ask the question because the questions there to be asked it’s not a formulated response me I don’t think you employed them because

They were black managers I just wanted to ask you because we’ve started this conversation because one of your perceptions in life and I think you still hold it is about the lack of opportunities because of ethnicity MH and it leads me into that what do you believe is the problem in terms

Of more black coaches getting into positions because you said it at the top of this interview and I understand the experiences of the 70s yeah and your father’s influence on your view of the world and racism in football because it was there yeah and it’s still racism

Today 100% right we’re never going to get rid of racism because there’s some pig ignorant people in society yeah given there’s a perception there’s a challenge to this and there’s not enough black coaches what do you think needs to be done to get more black coaches in positions into far something it does

Need to be done just at the moment there’s unequal opportunities for for for black players and former black players to to to get into those positions um you know I speak to a load of players you know yeah load of former players who would like to go back into coaching just

Don’t get the opportunity would like to go into management just don’t get the opportunity you know that the counter our counterparts get and that’s that’s simple you have to care about a situation to make change okay you know a little while ago there was this talk about

Um uh the emergence of a super league European Super League yeah yeah and theise the noise that was made around that yeah players should you know I saw tweets where players should uh Rebel and players shouldn’t play they should pack you know blah blah blah blah blah and I

Think well wow this is just because the Super League was mentioned yeah you know we’ve been talking about racism and and and one thing I talk about is tokenism and people talking about talking about things rather than doing what it takes to solve a problem I was honest the LMA

Course an applied management when Paul Lynch got the the opportunity to go to to manage mfield right and here’s someone that’s been England Captain Captain Manchester United on occasions Man Captain all the teams that he’s gone and played for gone abroad and been successful in Italy starts his first

Gets his first opportunity ma mfield why is that different from from Teddy sharam get his first opportunity at stevenage because I look at all the the other people around Paul at that level who’ve gone into much better positions when I was at I was at Tottenham and I sat down

On a table with a prominent figure in football mhm and that person said to me if you want to be taken seriously as a manager um you need to find a good non- need club with a owner that’s got the Ambitions of taking this club up into

The leagues blah blah blah blah blah and and you need to show that you want to be a coach and I said I totally accept that totally accept it but why did my counterparts not have to do that why they get opportunities in the Premier League and the championship they get

Good opportunities but you’re saying to me I have to go to non Le to prove that I want to be a coach so just doing my coaching badges is not enough to prove that I want to be a manager yeah I have to go to a non- league club do you know

What he said to me tell me we need to change our opinions in the boardroom you’re right we need to change our opinions in the boardroom but that’s an interesting one because I can speak from that position and I’m not going to tell a black man how he should think and view

The world right because I’m not black you know my nephew is but that doesn’t we can all go out and say my friends are black so I can relate to it right and that’s the old Trope right but it’s not something I relate to and I tell you why

It’s not something to relate to because I was in a ballroom MH and I would have employed whoever didn’t matter to me and I’m surprised that someone would say that because I don’t see Egyptian owners employing Egypt the argument is you employ what looks like you right and

What you know and what you’re comfortable with but I don’t see Arabs employing Arabs and I don’t see Egyptians employing Egyptians I see people going for Best in Class so that might be it so I’m going to debate with you about this for a second because I had this conversation with John John

Barnes yeah and you know John this is his life’s work at times right so you’re debating with someone that’s very deep in this position and he wrote a book that I read because I wanted to have a debate with him I come from a position of believing that Everyone’s entitled to an equal

Opportunity not an equal outcome no an equal opportunity so I want to ask you do do you believe in quoters I believe in the right person for the right job do you believe in quoters I believe in the right person for the right job but that’s not the

Same question so I I I’m saying to you I I don’t I don’t I don’t believe I should I should just be get a job because I’m black right if I’m qualified for the job and you got the talent and I’ve got the talent you should get an opportunity

To get a job I feel I feel yeah should be absolutely right what about the Rooney role don’t believe in it CU it worked in America didn’t it it didn’t work in America they’re saying statistically with the NFL as a result of the Rooney Rule more and more black coaches manifested themselves into

Professional into professional uh American football and if you look at it now it’s gone back to what it was before right because I can’t recognize it which doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and I’m not suggesting that what I’m saying is right and I’m debating with you in the

Same way I debated it with John right because I owned Palace for 10 years a multiethnic football club in a multiethnic environment with a multiethnic supporters base none of these were were relevant to me it was simply just a case of who’s the best person for the job right who wants the

Job who can I interview who can I talk to who can impress me and the conversation I had with John because John and I were debating about a ra of things I remember it right and it was a good conversation and I came away with

It with a lot of respect for some of the John’s points and I don’t believe Les this is my belief and and I’m very happy to be corrected by your experiences having spent time in most of the boardrooms around the country with a few exceptions these guys would employ

Anybody that’s going to win them games the supporter base doesn’t care captains of football teams and our black players have been for some time in positions of authority and influence and I know that the argument is they can be the performers they can but they can’t be the impressario

Yes but but why is that because it must mean it’s racist it must mean that everything’s stacked in a certain way that racism is prevalent in 92 ballrooms around the country that are going to systematically exclude black talents from being in positions of authority and

It doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me it doesn’t but you know you said that you’ve been in Lo loads of boardrooms yeah where you believe okay let me give you another example cool okay so um you’ve been in loads of boardrooms and loads of director’s boxes yeah so

When you sit in a director’s box yeah normally it’s not always directors and Associate directors that sit in the director’s box you get a lot of directors friends yeah and families they’re sitting in the director’s box very rarely do you see a black person sitting in director’s box unless he’s an agent

Right so that tells me the chairman the directors don’t have much association with black people well you see Mark bright sitting in the director box of you know he you but you’re talking about some yeah you’re [ __ ] name on one hand I’m making the point I understand and he’s he he’s he

Was a legend at Palace in himself and he work back he works back at Palace and he’s he’s very good friends with the with the Crystal Palace outside of that very very few black people sit in the director’s box so the association with black people very very

Limited so I know you’re you’re saying to me if John Barnes had knocked on your door you would have given him an interview yeah damn right I would I speak to a lot of players that continually put their their resumes their CVS in for opportunities and don’t get the opportunity to even

Interview and this is these are black people these are black former players the are black players these are black coaches who never played so by that logic saying to me they’re not getting so what’s the blockage then why why why does this blockage exist I’ve got no

Idea because I’ve got no idea this is this is what we’re trying this is what we’re trying to understand because the the statistics come out right and they say 43% of players in the Premier League are black but we need to distill that properly because over 50% of those are

Foreign players that go back to their original countries yeah so you’ve not got 43% of the Premier League being people that live in this country past their playing contracts you’re down to 2 1% right but there’s only 14% of coaches that are coming through from the statistics I’m told and you may know

Better uh that are that are from the black community 35% of the clubs in the football pyramid have employed black managers they just happen to be Chris huon or poin or or or Jimmy at time you know because he’s had two or three clubs S Campbell at a couple s Campbell at a

Couple um so I I’m always trying to push back at not resisting the idea because I’m not stupid of the notion that there’s racism that plays a part in our society and of course if it plays a part in our society it’ll play a part in football MH but I

Do worry that it’s using as an excuse and I’m going to I’m going to ask you a very loaded question here now which you might not like the rumor is that when the fa Chairman’s job came up yeah I’ve heard you say this before yeah

And this is a rumor that I’ve heard and I can’t remember who told I’m not botling out by telling you but it’s it’s done the rounds that you didn’t want to go for the job because you didn’t think you’d get it that’s an absolute nonsense is it absolute nonsense I was never ever

Ever contacted about the the the Chairman’s job I was contacted about the director of football role when Dan Ashworth was Lo leaving um the to go to Brighton yeah um I was on that fa uh Talent ID course y Dan Ashworth said to me Les you should put in for this um

Director the the role I’m leaving so I said really and he said yeah he said um we’re looking for someone who’s done all their Pro license who’s done the job before and he said you fit the criteria of exactly what we’re looking for right this is Dan Ashworth who is the director

Of football and was on on the course was leading the course so then they asked me to have a private meeting with the fa about the director of football course and I said to them my football club have been very very good to me I’m not going

To go behind their backs and have a private meeting with anyone about any any job without them knowing so if you want to speak to me if the fa want to speak to me about the job you approach my club approach my club yeah to be fair

Martin Glenn and and Dan ashw said they like they like the fact that I’d said that and that’s what they did that I went and I interviewed for the the direct director of football job I didn’t get the job but that wasn’t that was the only only ever that’s only but isn’t

That the but isn’t that what you’re campaigning for then isn’t it about equal opportunity yeah because that’s what you’ve got yeah so you know they asked me to interview it I I I I went an interview I didn’t get the job but the the the talk about the fa director’s job

I was never never ever been approached by it I’ve never even spoken to anyone about it um so I don’t know where that comes from but certainly nothing because that would be disappointing if that was the case yeah if if I’m if I’m if I’m up there and I’m talking that people don’t

Get opport and you don’t want to take and I don’t I don’t go for the job um then yeah then I I can’t sit here and be hypocritical and say well we never get opportunity and when I do get an opportunity don’t go for it no no because because there’s Jermaine defo

Recently said I’m going to ask you what you would what you’d be saying now to young black coaches because Jermaine defo he came out and said I’m don’t sure if I’m going to bother with this because I don’t think I’m going to get an opportunity and I

Don’t like that yeah I don’t want to hear that because not because not because it’s easy for a white man to say to a black man I don’t want to hear that but if nothing changes nothing changes yeah and that what what would you say to someone like Jermaine def when he comes

Out with that I know Jermaine well and I know his frustrations I know his frustrations and the question I would that you know if if you want to be a coach if you want to go into coaching that’s what you should do yeah you know you should you do your coaching badges

But I also know the other side of it where people have spent the five six years and the money on getting their coaches qualifications and then not getting an opportunity but you know Simon I never go on anyone’s show never go on anyone’s podcast I’ve never been on anyone’s um TV show did

Podcasted and said to them look I’m going to do an interview you’re going to do an interview with me but I want you to talk about racism it’s always a subject that comes up well of course it does but you Al but you’re also You’ also quite vious about

It because it’s a very it’s a hotp it’s a tri it’s a trigger subject the media jump all over it because it gets everybody at it exact exactly you know I want racism out of sport I want I want Prejudice out of sport I want discrimination out of it I want people

To get a job because they’re good enough to get that job and no one to be excluded or being given an opportunity to do that job given an opportunity and and you know you you you you you went through my stats there and you said well you know that doesn’t seem like success

Without me being able to explain the reason why we were where okay so I’m saying so when I when I when I originally got this job and obviously the the the the the comments were you know do you feel that you need to be successful for the generation that come

After you you know you’re the first black director ofb I wasn’t the first because Michel manelo at Chelsea was the first but you’re the first British black um director of football you need to be successful and I said it all depends how you deem success I said because what

You’re saying to me all the directors of football that have gone into every single Club have been successful that’s why they get other opportunity so you’re saying if I’m not successful here if you deem me not to be successful means I never get another opportunity whereas I

May have learned a hell of a lot of QPR to take into some else that would be ADV advantageous to that club and myself but you’re saying because I’m not successful at qbr I don’t get another opportunity and that’s kind of like where where this sits I’m not I’m not

Bringing that conversation up that’s what someone’s bringing to me I know I know director of football that have moved from Club to Club to club and then and then they start to have success and everyone talks about them being a great director of football so I wouldn’t have

Fed it that way though I think that’s a strange mindset to ask you but and I think that’s the wrong they’re asking you question because you’re black but that’s that’s what I’m saying so what I’m saying to you Simon is those are the kind of questions I get yeah fair enough

So so so so then I am looking at it as this is this is about my color this is not about me as a director football this is about my color so as much as you say you don’t see color no people do so how

Does it change Liz I mean you I mean I’ve I’ve always got I think if you take I would like to see color taken out of the equation so that you don’t have to make it about color you should make it about talent and that’s why I’m always

Slight slightly troubled when I see oh we want to set up a black PFA we want to set up black lawyers for footballers we want to set this and you’re involved in a partnership that does particular is by very make by making it about color don’t you consistently make it about color

I’ll tell you what we used to do at at QPR we got to a point where we would look at CVS for a job and as you said the person who’s qualified and the right person for a job so we we would we we’d advisees for a job and we’d go right we

Don’t want to look at the names on the CV don’t look at whether it’s a woman whether it’s a man whether it’s black white whatever it is we don’t know cuz if I said to you Mr in Mr Barnes Mr Campbell Mr Davis Mr you wouldn’t know

Whether they’re black or I’ve used some black black names that you know as black play but if I gave you those names on on a list you wouldn’t know whether they were black or white um so what we used to do was just look at CVS first and

Foremost and say right you know what that’s what we’re looking for then we’d look at the name right so we get this person into interview and if they interview as you said if they interview and they interview correctly for the job they get the job whether it male female

Um black white didn’t matter what what color we looked at the CV that CV is right for us this is this this fits our job description now we get him and interview and so you know I always used to get asked um you know QB really diverse football club you know you know

One you’re Leading Light we want to come and do a piece about you I said I’ve employed more Caucasian people than I have black people why you want to do an interview with me because we got div diverse no we we just employed the right people for the

Job but and you know and you say to you’re saying that black people have the agenda they want to talk about it no no I I said some no yes some I’m I’m saying it get it got put on me more than anything else in in my

Role no I understand what you’re saying do you think it will change less you know every year I keep saying I hope it does I hope it does I hope it does I hope it does does it make it so does it make you optimistic or you does it make

You pessimistic makes me pessimistic because we’ve been talking about this for so many years now I was brought into a meeting at the at the fa at St George’s Park when they was talking about this quota um in terms of representation at every level yeah and I

Argued that can’t be right can it no that’s what I said it can’t be right you have to have people that are qualified for the job and one of the questions I asked I asked um who was going to who was going to analyze whether that person

Was a good coach and they said and at the time in the meeting they said well obviously the manager and the coaches that are already there I said well who analyzed them when they came in I said because I’ll tell you what’s going to happen the minute you go back and you

Say this is what we’re going to do we’re going to have a quoter of uh black players um or black coaches with each uh section of England um you know from the the the the from the age right down to the 18s or 16s wherever is going to be

You’re going to have reput reput reputation representation at every level soon as you do that you’re going to get the ey rollers at St George’s Park go here we go we’re doing something for them again and that could be the same person that’s going to going to going to going

To critique whether you’re a good coach or not so I never thought it was going to work and I don’t think it is working it’s just that again another token of uh a visual thing of we’ve you know we got you know so many black players playing

For the the the country but we’ve got no black coaches we’ve got no black staff involved in in any of the setup now this is not me having a rent this is just no we’re talking about it I’m debating it with you because I’m I’m I’m pushing you because I’ve got certain

Views and My Views um I like to debate because I’m very happy to be debunked and I find those conversations and people are frightened to have them white people are frightened to have them because if they do that they can be classified as racist I’m interested in

The debate because I think debate comes educated thinking just because people don’t agree doesn’t mean you can’t walk away from a conversation without people going you know what I learned something or I’ve got a different view or I stay with the same view you haven’t got a

Walk away going he’s a [ __ ] and he’s this and he’s a racist and he’s whatever I just like to have a debate about these sort of things last one for you what next for you I have to wait and see what opportunities come up you know I’d like

To have another go um you know at at the direction of football would you yeah you know I I you know it it obviously became really tough and it’s only now I’m realizing how stressed I was um I didn’t realize if you care about something and you want something to be successful you

Give it your absolute all and that’s what felt did at QPR um some decisions were taken out my hand and I understand that because I always say we’re advisers and all we can do is give advisor to to the owners of the football club and if they decide not to take that advice

Unfortunately you roll with it and you know you can you can say well I don’t want to be in this anymore but I I want it to stay there because I wanted qbr to be successful it didn’t turn out that way in the end um but I think I’ve

Learned a lot um I’ve seen a lot and I think there’s a lot I can add to to someone going in and doing it again well good luck thank you appreciate it listen let enjoyed it very much thanks for being so thank you for having mate

Cheers up front with me Simon Jordan is brought to you by William Hill future episodes can be found on YouTube Spotify or wherever you find your podcasts 18 plus please gamble Responsibly