Question Time in Liverpool – 14.3.24

Question Time in Liverpool – 14.3.24

SNP Westminster leader Stephen Flynn received rapturous applause from the BBC Question Time audience as he spoke out in support of Diane Abbott.

Businessman Frank Hester – who has donated at least £10 million to the Conservative Party – is alleged to have said Abbott made him “want to hate all black women” and “should be shot”.

In an appearance Flynn was widely praised for, he stuck up for Abbott as he said he was “furious” about the way the “Westminster establishment” stopped her from having a say.

He said: “I don’t know if anyone else sitting in this room right now was furious on Wednesday at the fact the Westminster establishment stopped Diane Abbott from being able to question the Prime Minister?”

The audience broke into loud applause in response to his comments, drowning out presenter Fiona Bruce as she said “You mean the Speaker of the House when you say the Westminster establishment?”

Flynn also received huge praise for slating Westminster not calling for a ceasefire in the Middle East for months as he urged the UK to end arms sales to Israel.

STEPHEN Flynn was also forced to intervene after right-wing columnist Melanie Phillips made a “deranged rant” on Gaza on BBC Question Time.

After Stephen Flynn spoke passionately about Gaza, advocating for an immediate ceasefire and hitting out at Westminster “silence”, Phillips argued that what the SNP Westminster leader said was “distorted and so untrue”.

She then denied that Israel was limiting aid to Gaza and claimed “hundreds and hundreds” of trucks were going into Gaza but were being “stolen by Hamas”.

This led to an intervention from host Fiona Bruce (video below), who highlighted that the United Nations and humanitarian organisations are claiming the contrary, with reports of children dying of starvation.

Phillips then claimed that Hamas has “operatives” in the UN and are “compromised” – referring to allegations that some of the staff of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) were involved in the Hamas attacks on Israel on October 7.

She then went on to say that there isn’t a famine because you can “go on YouTube and see pictures of stocked food markets in Gaza” – which led to incredulous laughs in the audience.

Phillips asked: “Why are you laughing?”

“Because it’s outrageous,” Flynn interjected. Bruce then highlighted that there are no timestamps on these videos.

Flynn then hit out at Phillips’s comments.

“If you want to look at pictures, I’m happy to send you photos and videos of civilians being bombed and slaughtered,” he said to applause from the audience.

The government’s attempt today to Define extremism comes during a war of words between labor and the conservatives over which party has a bigger problem with racism meanwhile a real war rages on in Gaza to discuss that and more we’re in Liverpool a city synonymous of course with the Beatles but also dominated by

Labor at local and National level for as long as anyone can remember but our audience here is a broad ref C of the Electoral picture Across the Nation welcome to question Time on tonight’s panel from the government Lee roley is housing minister in the department of leveling up housing and communities he’s been MP for Northeast darbishire since 2017 and was previously a deputy chairman of the conservatives from labor Jonathan Reynolds is a shadow secretary for business and trade he was elected in

2010 as MP for Staley bridge and Hyde in Greater Manchester Steven Flynn leads the Scottish national party’s 43 MPS at Westminster and has done so for nearly a year and a half the man from Dundee is MP for abedine South Aisha haara hosts times radio’s weekend DriveTime shows

And a political podcast called the power test before that she was an adviser to then labor leader Ed millerand and she’s just been nominated for a Life peage by the now la labor leader K stama Melanie Phillips is a columnist journalist and author she’s worked for the guardian the

Sunday Times spectator and Jewish chronical among others she’s also written nearly a dozen books over four decades and now has a column in the [Applause] times good evening Welcome to our panelist welcome to audience here in Liverpool great to see you welcome to you at home you can catch up with program in all sorts of ways on BBC sounds on the I player and of course there’s always a discussion going on on

Social media right let’s take our first question which is from Louise Osman will the community secretary announcement Michael Go’s announcement today revising the definition of extremism which we’ve been waiting for for a long time actually prevent extremism so as you say this was announced by Michael go today by your

Boss um an abbreviated version of it let me just share it with you um is defining extremism as the promotion of an ideology based on violence hatred or intolerance to undermine fundamental rights and the UK’s liberal parliamentary democracy will it actually prevent extremism Le well we hope so and that’s

Why we brought it Forward because we recognize that the the approach needs to change it needs to change post the 7th of October we’ve seen more extremism within the United Kingdom but also we always need to go go back and look at policy again every so often to make sure

It works to make sure it’s appropriate for today it’s a very difficult area it’s one of the reasons why it’s creating so much debate but what my boss what Michael has said Michael go is that we need more Precision in terms of when we Define extremism and then we need

Greater Clarity from government about not engaging with those who are defined as extremists and it’s all part of a plan to try to make sure that we protect freedom of speech which is absolutely vital and then on the other side you’ve got criminality which absolutely people

Need to throw the book at but there’s a bit in the Middle where we need to make sure that those people who are trying to undermine fundamentally undermine rule of law democracy the values which we all live by and we built our country over several hundred years but those are

People who we need to call out and we have to say we’re not going to engage in government F so when you see that you need a more precise definition I was watching the the debate this afternoon until you had robbert jri obviously former uh you know from the home office

Saying I fear the definition lands in No Man’s Land not going far enough to tackle the real extremist not doing enough to protect the non-extremist and watching the debate who who’s welcoming this from your side well it’s a I saw a lot of criticism I didn’t see many people

Saying this is a great idea it’s a it’s a challenging policy area there’s no doubt about that and that’s why it’s taken time to get here but what Michael is trying to do is he’s not going to run over there and not not not deal with it

He’s absolutely trying to deal with it what I saw actually today I thought the labor respons respon was relatively constructive I thought most of the people sat on my benches on the conservative benches were trying to be constructive about it but this is the

First part of a series of a plan and so Michael has announced the broad outline today the broad approach and then we will come back in a number of weeks time to talk about the specific groups the Precision about who is and who isn’t extreme and also recognizing that we

Have to tread carefully here but we do have to do something about this because the rise of extremism is unacceptable do you welcome this Jonathan do you support it do you support this definition well it’s a really important issue and I welcome the question I can’t

Tell you yet whether this will solve the problem where this definition is the right one because you’ve got to see how it works in practice and I I do to be honest I worry that fundamentally this is about can this government bring people together can it build community

Cohesion to do that I think a lot of people to be honest don’t really trust this government to be able to do that but you know whatever definition you have the question is what are you going to do to really tackle this because we’ve got to clamp down on extremism you

Know the the government’s counter extremism strategy I think is 9 years out of date you know what are they going to actually do with this definition to do it how are we just to just just to be clear do you support the definition as outlined by Michael go we’ll have to see

What it what it does I mean I find it it’s a very broad definition to be honest I want to know how it will be used I want to know how we will tackle online radicalization which has become a huge problem I want to know what will we do specifically around anti-Semitism

Around islamophobia those require specific responses so I absolutely agree we agree that we’ve got to have some serious action on clumping down on extremism but can this government do it and can it be the case if it’s a definition that’s just come from one politician to Define who who is the

Other side of that definition I I am honestly not sure but what we really want is some proper action that will deliver this and I think at the minute to be honest we cannot say at this stage whether this will do it okay Stephen

I’ll come to you in a minute I just saw loads of hand shoot up so if you forgive me I’m just going to go to the audience quickly um The woman there on in in the black yes hi um I think with that definition of extremism what would the

Tory party say then about what Frank hter said about Diane Abbott this week well we’ say it wouldn’t it wouldn’t be it wouldn’t be covered by that because the whole point of this of this issue putting it and I’m happy to talk about I’m very happy to talk about franker in

A moment extr this is about organizations and if we conflate these two things which we can do it won’t but it won’t get a great deal further in either debate this is about a long-term approach to try to ensure that those organizations who sit and stand in our

Country enabled through the very values which we all share but who are trying to undermine those values we have to say that’s not appropriate that needs calling out it needs and you you’ve made that point you say you shouldn’t conflct those two things I just point out that former Chancellor George Osborne has

Done that today and he said it’s interesting I mean I’m just quoting in that the government uh won’t give money to extremists doesn’t want to fund extremists but is happy to take money from someone who appears to fall under that new definition of extremist well we’ve got a choice as

A we’ve got a choice as a society we’ve said that what Frank Hester said was wrong and it was racist and here now the debate the question the thing in front of us right now is how we make sure over the long run when Frank Hester isn’t in

The news in 6 months time or 12 months time when something else has come up when the labor or the liberals or the SNP have got a problem like we’ve this week you know ultimately we make sure we make sure that still we are stopping people misusing our values we shouldn’t

Be naive in this country if we believe in Liberal democracy we have to fight for it Stephen look the the good news is that this conservative government is coming to an end the the bad news is that they’ve not realized it yet so they’re going to spend they’re going

So they’re going to spend whatever time they have left seeking to divide deflect and distract from the chaos of the last 14 years austerity Public Services on their needs the damage of brexit a prime minister who lied a prime minister who cashed okay but even about the question

The question from L will it actually prevent extremism and this is an important point because we cannot allow ourselves to fall for that distraction we need to make sure that we do as the good people of Liverpool have done since 1983 and the people of Scotland have

Done since 1955 and reject the Tories at The Ballot Box and when it comes to extremism I think someone should provide Lee in the conservative party with a mirror because the only people who have threatened parliamentary democracy on these Isles are the people who closed shut down the Westminster Parliament

Illegally the people who seek to undermine the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Parliament at every turn and the people who accepted 10 million from someone who was racist and calls for one of my parliamentary colleagues to be shot that is extremism and Lee need to hold the mirror up to himself and his

Own party not a word step in any of that two minutes about how we actually solve extremism in this country not a single word just a load of partisan Well here here’s a suggest a suggest iMed the immediate that we face with regards to the challenges in society a party who

Paroled Parliament illegally a party who ignores a devolved settlement in Scotland in Wales a party who from a racist who called for an NP to be short you get rid of the conservative party that’s you do how do you do I’m sorry I’m not going to I’m not absolutely failed to answer the

Question how you deal withed def hang hang on just one more second Louise’s question is about will this revised definition of extremism actually prevent extremism you still haven’t answered that question Stephen no we hear what you say about conserv party and of course you’re entirely within

Your rights to make that point but in answering Louise’s question will this revised definition of extremism actually prevent it the important Point here is that this is just a deflection but answer the question conserv can you answer the question I’ll give you one last chance no I don’t

In terms of what the government have done today but this is a deflection and we can’t escape from that Melanie I don’t think definitions of extremism actually will do anything to counter extremism we already have a definition of extremism this is another one uh Michael go says this is a better

One I don’t know whether it’s better or not it you know you need a microscope to see the difference I can see there is a difference but I’m not persuaded that the difference in language is going to make any difference on the ground it seems to me that the problem has not

Been about definitions of extremism there are plenty of laws already on the statute book to enable the police to take whatever action is needed to counter all kinds of extremists the problem is that the police very often will not use those powers and that is due to a variety of issues and questions

Depending on the circumstances but for example when it comes to Neo-Nazi extremists and Michael go announced two organizations which are going to be prescribed from government assessing them at the moment they assessing them um those don’t need any definition of extremists we all know what neo-nazis

Are but when you look at the shawcross report on the malfunctioning of the prevent program a program which the government set up some years ago to deal with extremism you find that what has happened there what’s gone wrong there is in the is in the uh the uh uh failure

To correctly uh to to take action against the kind of people who pose the greatest threat and that’s due to a variety of reasons in other words the problem is not with a definition the problem is with what’s going on what’s going wrong with the people who have

Been entrusted with the task of keeping us safe and as far as I can see this new definition is not going to address that problem okay man in blue sweater yes uh so I just want to to remind you that he actually said when he looks at Diane hbert oh this is franker

You’re talking about yes uh it makes him hate all black woman and that she should be shot if that is not extremism I don’t know what it is and I’m sorry I’m thinking about I am also thinking about countless of like black women especially black girls

Who hear that on TV and that’s a mass massive safeguarding issue I mean what this little girl would actually think like you know that she’s not accepted in the society that we live in I mean I was not shocked that that’s how sad it is like you know we’re getting used to that

But I was angry and I hope that we protect Diana Bo at all cost and I hope she receive support from both parties the conservatives and as well thank Youk okay yes there in the woman with the yes um instead of redefining extremism why don’t we make penalties

Worse for hate speech it seems like Frank CER nothing’s happened to him and there seems to be a scandal like this every week and nothing happens to anybody who makes all these offensive comments okay and for yes in the black sweater yeah me um yeah I mean for years

We as a teacher we’ve had the prevent strategy rammed down our throats every year we’ve had to repeat our prevent certificates and yet today suddenly suddenly all of that goes out of the window why we’ve been building up with prevent all this time is prevent not good enough anymore okay

Area well look we should take extremism seriously in our society Joe Cox the MP was murdered by a far right extremist David Amos was murdered by an islamist extremist I think we should be very worried about our young people getting radicalized I’m from a Muslim background

No muslim mom or dad wants to see their daughter ending up like shamima beum no Christian mom or dad wants their teenage son to end up like Joe Like A Man Called Joel mecl who’s a teenager he was sentenced to 10 years after being convicted of planning to attack a mosque

And kill Muslims so we should take this seriously we should take it deadly seriously and do you to Louis’s question do you think this will what Michael go said today will actually prevent extremism and that kind of thing no because I think what the government is doing is cynically plain politics with

This issue I think this idea of tackling extremism if you’re going to be serious I about it you have to engage with people you have to understand what’s happening in these communities you have to work with people in the community and what I have been seen cynically over

Months I’m sure you’ve all seen it here is using extremism as a fig Leaf actually to promote a lot of anti-muslim and islamophobia in this country and I find it extraordinary that in the week that we have had these comments from this t t Dona where the conservative

Party took a whole day to even Define what racism is they sent ministers out on the morning round saying this guy hadn’t been racist he had just been a bit rude he talked about shooting a black woman not any black woman as well our first ever elected black woman in

British political history this is a party that couldn’t even Define that as racist how on Earth are they going to Define what extremism is we come back I’m just going to take a few more points so the conservative party talks about protecting freedom of speech all being well but there’s a big difference

Between freedom of speech and spreading misinformation total garbage total lies as the lady said there seems to be no repercussions or Consequences to these people who make such statements they’re not corrected the correct information is not put out there hence why a lot of by fascism in this country and extremis is

On the rise people are going to believe those facts that they think are fact and they spread through social media and have detrimental effects let me just ask in the interest of balance is there is there anyone here who welcomes what Michael Gove had to say and supports what he had to

Say Val not not a hand up okay you had there were other people who had that you had your hand up there so let’s hear what you’ve got to say yes the woman with a black polar neck I think I would just go one step step further and say

That there has been a decades long campaign um of inciting and exploiting islamophobia um to suppress dissent a decades long campaign on behalf of him um I mean in terms of the conservatives the amount of suppression in terms of De democracy and and Free Speech anytime there’s descent that doesn’t sort of

That’s not got the approval of whiteall it feels as though everything’s being shoved down and that islamophobia has always been kind of incited and exploited um as this sort of it it it always feels as though Muslims are kind of being targeted and and black people

As well as well I I just feel as though it’s not it’s it it feels as though there’s been a decades long campaign that hasn’t worked with prevent it feels as though it’s not functioned particularly well okay let me take one more it yes this one here with Rishi sunak making transphobic

Comments in the presence of Brianna J’s mother and accepting donor money from someone who is I think we can all agree is incredibly racist will the government accept its complicit in a culture of racism and transphobia right Lee listen let me come back you got a number of points here so

Uh you had you a teacher you were saying and you saying well what’s you’ve been working with prevent rages does that just go out the window now um and perhaps you want to ask the other other points as well sure look there’s two things here um and the conservative

Party’s had a difficult week and the first thing is that the the people the the person who we’re talking about Frank Hester the comments wrong the comments were racist you have to you have to deal with the specifics this week it’s Frank Hester a few weeks ago it was Angela rer

About something else before that it was XYZ we po within politics within politics people say things which are incorrect the first thing they need to do is say that that was wrong and then more broadly as a society we have to decide what we want to do with people

Who get things wrong and who say things wrong and the question is do we forgive or do we just ostracize and some people in this audience will say that’s it we’re done no more other people will say actually second chances my personal view I did this all the way through over I’ve

Tried to do it all the way through my career in politics as an MPA is try to give Second Chances not just on my side but on the other side as well I think we are better as a society as a community if we do that where comments are wrong

They should be called out but ultimately if we give people a second chance if we say actually you still have something to contribute in whatever way be it MPS or within the political process all I think we are better as a society for doing that okay I just want to come back on

That because it is a disgrace to lump other politicians like Angela Reena in with what that race has said I hang on hang on hang on hang on he didn’t just make a bad comment about people he said Diane Abbott made him want to hate all black women and he

Wanted to shoot her okay that is not just I have been a bit rude and when you say he apologized he did not even recognize his abor disgusting frightening racism he said he had just been a bit rude he would not even accept that and if you are going to be

Preaching to the country about extremism you have to put your money literally where your mouth is this guy is a disgusting racist he is Bank ruling the conservative party will you give that money back as I as I have said all the way through this there are different MPS and

There are different people in political life that make comments that are wrong when they are some but when if they said they’re going to shoot somebody John McDonald mate you remember that John McDonald said something entirely inappropriate about estimate V about 10 years ago so we can all find examples of really really

Inappropriate behavior of really really outrageous things that were said we should say that they’re wrong we should call out that they’re wrong but as a society we have a broader question as I say to answer about whether we accept when people are contrite that they still

Have things to will you give the money back you were ask that well I’m not in charge but I don’t think we are giving the money back no because ultimately if we say that people have people ask for forgiveness if people say they were wrong we’ve said it’s wrong that he said

It’s wrong basically 15 million gives you a blank check for racism and that AB that is that is absolutely not correct that is not correct and next time next time Aisha in the labor party somebody says something that is incorrect and somebody says something that absolutely wrong and I hope and I

Will look forward to you absolutely cutting them out of public life forever full stop I’m just going to say can I just say and I I I have to say this because Frank ker is not here to defend himself as you say he has apologized for being rude yeah that’s the the comment

He’s made he has also said separately and you may not agree with this but he has also said separately that he Abes all forms of racism I I know listen this is this is my job he is not here to defend himself I’m just putting his his point of view um

We could talk about this for quite some time okay let’s give another two or three minutes and before I move on comments were clearly racist they were clearly abhorent they were clearly wrongly I don’t know why anyone would want to morally compromise themselves so much by defending it but for you do you

Not see what what this audience has said tonight you have lost the legitimacy to tackle a really serious issue which is extremism because these people and the people at home they will not listen when you operate that double standard as a government and you didn’t come out as a

Government and say it was wrong first of all you said it was rude then you said it was racist then you said it was racist but the money wasn’t racist and then you were saying that the that you take more of the money and now we find

Out you have of course it’s wrong and the Prime Minister knows it’s wrong but the fact is he’s too weak if you can’t govern you’ve got to call an election so people can do you said it’s wrong I’m saying it’s wrong here tonight I mean it’s clear there are there’s

There’s a forest of handouts I’m just going to take a few more points before I move on go shall I start the woman here in the black with the glasses yeah um yeah I just wanted to say that you know you said that it’s about giving people a second chance and basically saying

Forgiveness to be quite Frank it’s not your place to say um that you know he deserves a second chance it’s not my place but it’s definitely not your place or any conservative party member or any party member who’s saying we’ll give him a second chance no until Diane Abott

Says I feel like this has been genuinely addressed then I literally don’t really care about what anyone says about we don’t but right right towards the about we haven’t heard anyone from the very back the man you I think you got a pink shirt no further back yes um it’s as

Abhorent as what Frank Hester said uh about D abot it it’s part of a pattern of people connected to the conservative party because there were the comments by um soel bra many many comments by soel braan actually um and then what happened with li truss and Steve Bannon um Robert genrich and others

So if that we’re getting this from the government about um counter extremism but the government has so many so many of its own problems with its own senior figures and just a little bit further along with yes you’ve also got glasses on yeah yes so when you say second

Chances like how far is too far when you talk about second chances like how muchoney do you keep taking from these people who are horrible but like they can’t even say if they’re apologizing or not for the right thing they’re sort of cut in this sort of trap like how far is

Too far what’s the limit of of unacceptability this is what you’re saying and just let’s take here the man next to you as well you got your hand up I’m just wondering if the checkbook come out tomorrow or the helicopter keys or the T say no might as well answer that before I

Move on would you take more money I mean we have the Kevin Hollen saying last night yes I’ve already talked about that but the the fundamental point is and I understand and I as I say it is wrong and it was racist and the question is when these things happen whether today

In my party tomorrow in another the day after in my party again we all want it not to happen but when it does what do we do as a society what do we do as a community and we you know I I absolutely accept the point that is being made by a

Number of people in the audience but the question is what do we do about it long term and do we say the Second Chance is work well I think Sol Your solution was provided to you by very eloquently by an audience member who said we should

Listen to what Dian Abbott has to say in this regard and I don’t know if anyone else sitting in this room right now was Furious on Wednesday at the fact that the Westminster establishment stopped Diane Abbott from being able to question the Prime Minister on this you mean the

Speaker of the house when you say the West EST can I just make one other to move on at the heart of all of this with all the politican going on is a woman and that woman is Diane Abbott and I think what we forget is she is a human

Being like the rest of us this woman was our first ever black elected woman into par in that time she has been abused humiliated mocked and now she’s been threatened with death and I do think what does it say about our society that almost 40 years on after the first ever

Black woman was elected that we are in this cess pool of racism I spoke to Diane um this week and what that woman has had to to go through so in the middle of all of this yes there’s lots of accusations but there is a human

Being at the heart of all of this and her name is Diane abber okay I am going to move on uh lots of you want to talk about this next question so I want to take it just before I do I want to say that we have

Got one more show before the Easter break break so that’s next week we are in Middlesboro then after the Easter break uh we return on the 18th of April in buckton so if you are in or around middles or buckton you’d like to come be

Part of the show be part of the audience follow the instructions on The Question Time website and hopefully we’ll see at one of those two programs right let’s take another question now from James Pritchard with 12,300 children dead in Gaza will the government or opposition put any meaningful pressure on Israel to

End the slaughter Jonathan the the situation in Gaza is unconscionable and everybody wants to see a breakthrough everybody wants to see a ceasefire and clearly the the need to get Aid into Gaza at scale to deal with that humanitarian situation is palpable and obvious to see it is a huge

Frustration for everyone I think watching those scenes to to wonder how can we meaningfully have a breakthrough that will deliver that a ceasefire has got to be both sides it’s got to that’s what a ceasefire is both sides being willing to do that and that is a

Challenge with the leaders I think on both sides of that you know I was on this program if you remember in October in Bradford where it had just begun if you told me at this stage we’d still be talking about the lack of a breakthrough even I I wouldn’t have believed it could

Be such a stalemate but I do believe the circumstances now especially with um I don’t think Hamas will be part of the future of Gaza and therefore I think there is not just the potential for a ceasefire but the potential for a long-term meaningful peace process and

That is what’s required we can’t have this cycle of violence just coming back on an annual or or a monthly basis we need a long-term breakthrough to a two-state solution I think Bleak as things are there is the potential for that and sometimes in situations like this around the world things get so

Horrendous that they provide the means that we can never go back to it and and the will is created to move forward and I think that is possible though I have to say I feel very depressed and very frustrated when I see it and I look at

The the amount of time and the the human tool of what we have seen and and it is absolutely unable same the events on October the the 7th have rightly been condemned by all political parties they were utterly abhorent and the hostages who still remain in control uh who are

Still under the control of Hamas must be released but my colleagues and I have been consistent since the weeks following that we need to have an immediate ceas fire and the reason for that is simple is that the people of Palestine are being collectively punished for the actions of a terrorist

Group they are being denied access to water to food to medicine to electricity to the ability to leave in meantime they are being indiscriminately shot and bombed 70,000 men women and children injured 30,000 men women and children dead and I have been utterly ashamed to be a member

Of the Westminster Parliament as it has sat for months in silence instead of calling for that immediate ceasefire and two things need to happen now we finally dragged the labor party to position where it backs a ceasefire and hopefully we can get the government to do likewise

But meantime we need to end Aram sales to Israel and we need to use our voice the UK’s voice as a permanent member of the UN Security Council to Advocate immediately for a ceasefire no ifs no buts and let me just ask you Stephen when you say no if no no ifs no

Buts and you’ve become completely clear with the at the S&P that you want an immediate C far and as you say you’ve called for that consistently how do you get the hostages released not nothing nothing would please me more than to see the hostages but if it is is not condition upon that

That you’re calling for is it no no because there I’m sorry but there is no justification for bombing targeting and collectively punishing a civilian population for the actions of a terrorist group and what needs to happen is there needs to be an an fighting there needs to be an immediate

Discussion we need to see the UK and the US show some backbone stand up to Benjamin Netanyahu and get this sorted so have the ceesar as you say and then hope somehow the hostages get use the voice that we have collectively across the world to advocate for making sure those

Hostages are least absolutely Medan I live mainly in Israel I come here a great deal I am British I will always be British and it is a tragedy beyond measure that so many decent people well-meaning people in Britain have got this completely the wrong way around what’s happening in Gaza is indeed a

Tragedy war is terrible civilians are killed but what Steven has just said is so distorted and so untrue let me just take you through one or two points that he has said that’s good he says that the gazans are being denied by Israel access to food and humanitarian supplies yes this is

Completely untrue there have been hundreds and hundreds of trucks going through Gaza there have been hundreds of trucks stopped by going from going through Gaza because the food is being stolen by Hamas the gazans themselves are saying this you laugh because you don’t know I am telling you hang hang on

Melie In fairness the the UN says that not enough trucks are being allowed in and and that that children are dying of Salvation you’ve got UNICEF saying children are dying of Salvation the UN has had had its own operatives in Ana the relief and Welfare organization who

Are members of Hamas dozens and dozens of them they are entirely compromised okay so just I’ll let you speak I promise but just to be clear what you’re saying when you’ve got The Who and the UN and the E humanitarian Chief saying there is famine in Gaza you’re saying

That’s not true you can on you can go on YouTube and see pictures of the stocked food markets in Gaza why are you laughing SE seen these pictur I have looked at some of them they don’t have time stamps on them I’ve got to point that out so I

Don’t know when these pictures were taken okay I mean if you have proof that they were taken in the last oob if you want to look at pictures Melanie I’m quite happy to send you some pictures and videos of civilians being bombed and slaughtered at I’ll show you

Some okay if you if you want to talk about SL da Steven you accuse Israel of indulging in Collective punishment you talk about October the 7th and how abhorent that was these are crocodile tears by you your hypocrisy is epic Hamas let me finish finish I’ll let you

Come back let me finish that was merely the start Hamas and Hezbollah have said they intend to kill every Jew and wipe out the state of Israel if you had your way and then there was a ceasefire now there would be more prgrams and more Slaughters of Israelis the Israelis do

Not want to kill Palestinians in Gaza it’s the last thing they want Hamas have made the gazans into not just human Shields but cannon fodder Hamas shoot gazans when they try to find safe areas Hamas are in Tunnels for their own safety not one shelter has been built by

Hamas in all the time they have ruled Gaza for the Palestinians under bombardment the only reason that Israel is having to bombard Gaza is because they cannot get at the infrastructure of mass Terror and genocide which has been put underground Collective punishment this is how this man talks about the

Defense against genocide Collective punishment is how he describes the desperate attempt by Israel to prevent a genocide from happening and a second Holocaust from happening I don’t think people here understand what do you think that Hamas mean when they say we wish to kill every Jew what do

You think they did when they slaughtered when they slaughtered 12200 Israelis and took others hostage with a terrible fate we don’t yet know and not only that they say they will do it again and again and they mean it why do you sneer at this

Why do you justmiss it why do you call the defense against mass murder Collective punishment would you have called it Collective punishment when the Allies bombed Germany you would have said it was a defense against Fascism and Nazism Israel is trying to prevent a second Holocaust that is not an

Exaggeration that is what is threatened you don’t understand I’m afraid well-meaning people here have no idea what it’s like to be in Israel not only is it’s a very small country there is virtually not a single household that is not personally touched by this either they’ve had family or friends murdered

On October 7th they are to being taken hostage their boys and girls their grandchildren children are on the front line and they are dying every day there are Rockets hundreds of rockets every day coming from the north from theah okay Melanie melie you’re making your parents very powerful I’m just going to

Because you’ve made some accusations against Ste I want to let him answer you know what those those weren’t accusations those were outrageous disgusting slurs and I actually feel quite sorry we heard what you said however however at the at the at the invitation um of a member of the Israeli Embassy in

London I sat in a room alongside some of the families of the victims of October the 7th and watched the raw footage of what happened and I don’t think I slept for the best part of a week but I have the ability and the personality to be able to differentiate

Between the horrors that occurred and the response by Benjamin yeyahu the unjustified and unconscionable response of the Israeli government and I hope I genuinely hope With all sincerity that one day you can too all right I’m going to I’m going I’m going to let some

People come in from the AUD is the man here in the very front I’ve put a question in earlier when the emails came in and what I was asking is does the normal Palestinian citizen have any input into ridding the country of its ruling Hamas party such that if you have

A two-state solution it will never happen while they fear hamus is still there you need the country to be run by uh the actual Palestinian citizen and that stop and get rid of the hammmer people so there no need to bomb I mean it’s not the easiest thing I would say for someone

Stand okay let’s let’s take a few more points is The Man in the Yellow t-shirt yeah yeah there was just one thing that I was always trying to pass on to everybody what I would say to you on the panel is we place one thing in this whole situation and that is change

Israel for any other na ation on the planet and see if you would have sat back as long with what Israel have done would you have done the same with any other Nation or would you have stepped in Alien gone no that’s over the line they’ve gone too far you need to stop

Okay and the man at the very towards the back there yes you got your hand up we’ll just get a microphone to you yep you yeah um you’re talking about what’s happening in Israel and the question get keeps getting put back to the main two parties how can you justify asking

Israel to do something when you’re not asking Hamas to do something the answer to that’s very simple Israel is an ally democratically elected government Israel is that Hamas is the terrorist organization we should hold Israel to a higher standards what has happening is wrong we need that to say that we need

Leadership to say that we should use voice on the UN Security Council to say that that’s the simple answer we should hold Israel to a higher standard to Hamas what Hamas have done is wrong it’s terrible but doing nothing we’re becoming a complic in that we need to

Say to our friends you should be doing better and they should be doing better are you well look I mean everybody watching and everybody in this room is just absolutely horrified by what we’re seeing and you can hold two thoughts in your head at the same time

You can feel the understandable pain and anguish and fear of the Jewish Community because of what happened on the 7th of October that orgy of violence and evil and you can also feel pain and horror when you look at what is happening in Gaza the death toll and the injury so

Most people people can hold both of those things in their head most people want peace of course they do but let’s not kid ourselves it’s not that easy and if we’re absolutely honest a ceasefire has never felt more remote because essentially you’ve got two sides that don’t want a ceasefire Hamas as Melanie

Has rightly alluded to don’t want a ceasefire and they have said that they would not stop attacking uh Israel but on the other side you’ve got Netanyahu and one of the most extreme rightwing governments in modern history in Israel and there’s lots of protests against him

As well neither side want a solution or a compromise to your point at the front uh the gentleman the pink shirt you talked about the Palestinians needing new leadership I agree I think the Israelis also need new leadership if we want to try and get some resolution in

The meantime we have got to get Aid in to Gaza the idea that we’re now shipping um Aid in and we’re building this port which could take up to 60 days we need to get Aid by truck by Road into Gaza and everybody in the Diplomatic Community is trying to be very sensitive

To all the understandable concerns that people have but pressure has got to be put now to get this Eden parachuting it in is a nonsense shipping it in is just logistically so so difficult the way to get it I mean the ceas fart is going to take a long time there’s no simple

Slogans or solutions to this we’ve got to stop this famine they are on a brink of a famine and the International Community has got to get together and we’ve got to get Aiden into Gaza okay Lee let’s come back to James’s question will the government and the opposition

But you’ve answered jonan will the government put any meaningful pressure on Israel to end the slaughter now we heard that most senior Democrat in the in the states uh today Chuck Schumer saying netanyahu’s got to go for example David Cameron has been increasingly critical will the government put any

Meaningful pressure to end the slaughter well it’s a huge amount of work going on in the background as there often is in these kind of foreign policy issues to try to move it forward but it is hugely difficult and it’s hugely difficult for one reason this could stop right now it

Could stop this second without a single additional drop of blood being spilled and the way that happens is for Hamas to lay down their weapons it is for Hamas to say that they will not try to repeat October the 7th where 1,200 civilians were murdered raped

Beheaded and burnt alive it is for Hamas to release 200 people the two the element of that 200 people who are sadly left who they dragged back into Gaza and are now using as human Shields and is for Hamas to say that they will no longer to say that they will do this

Time and time and time and time again and the other thing Hamas could do is remove from its Charter its founding principles the way in which it has worked for the past 30 years virulently anti-semitic statement which wants to wipe Israel off the map so I want to

Cease fire tomorrow I want all of this all of this horrible things everything you say is of course true but there’s no chance of that happening with herass all agreee do we get blame her Mass let let’s have let’s have let’s have 80% of this discussion about Hamas about a viant

Anti-semitic murderous group of people that started this perpetuate this and have it within their power to stop it tomorrow and are choosing not to do so okay I just want to take a couple more points the man in the check shirt sort of in the middle didn’t Hamas actually

Offer that in Benjamin Nat who denied her he offered him to release the hostages in turn for a ceasefire and he denied her so what did I tell you but they but what they haven’t done is said that they won’t try to do it again and again and again they stated that

Explicitly if herass stopped all of this I absolutely agree cease fire immediately but heras are refusing to do so the woman here in the cream sweater hang just get the mic I lived in London in the early 90s and I remember the IRA by the way I am a proud Jew and I

Remember back then when we had to avoid bombings and watch out where we were I remember my friends here saying we do not negotiate with murderers we don’t negotiate with terrorists of course in the end we did sorry you know in the end we did the government did do you

Think sorry car Mak do you think Hamas is like the IRA do you think Hamas would sit down with us I’d be ready I believe you I think that if the you know go if if Hamas said it was over then so much would change and I don’t think this is the Palestinian

People Hamas is not the Palestinian people let’s make that very separate don’t forget that people from Palestine came over to Israel they would come over to work I mean some of the hostages are people who worked with Arabs with people in Gaza with Palestinians don’t forget that don’t forget in Israel we have

Arabs and Israelis Jews and Arabs working together living together trying to make life good let’s look and see what’s happening there with Israel let’s not forget what was going on with Hamas the Palestinians brought them you know they they elected them and then what happened with all that money look at all

Those great tunnels right we know this we Jews know this Jews know this and that’s what’s so exhausting okay thank you for your point I’m going to take another question um we’ve got about 10 minutes left and I want to try and fit in and I know we

Will return sadly to talking about Gaza as you say when you were on in Bradford who thought we’d be talking about it this many months on um Allison litherland yes if a judge having heard all the circumstances all the facts of a case gives a substantial sentence of up to

Four years how is Justice served by releasing that person early on a whim so the Justice secretary Alex chalk announced this week that prisoners could be released from jail two months early that was on top of having already done that an early decision to release prisons 18 days early he’s now extended

It to two months basically the prisons are too full um Stephen actually they’re too full in Scotland as well aren’t they it’s not just a problem down in England well well indeed and much of this has been a consequence of a lack of investment in public services of which

Our judicial system is very much the heart of and you know that stems from I mean prisons are devolved in Scotland so you could build more prisons if you wanted prisons are devolved in Scotland the justice system in Scotland is devolved and it’s separate um what is

Not devolved and separate is of course the Chancellor’s budget which he makes and that obviously impacts upon the money that’s available in Scotland and there’s been obviously a 10% reduction in the capital budget Capital Grant to the Scottish government in order to build uh these new things so the fact

That Scotland’s I mean you you’ve got an overcrowding problem in Scotland will’ll come to England as well of course but you’ve got an overcrowding problem in Scotland Scotland has more inmates per 100,000 of population than England or Wales or even than the European average now that’s not down to the westmin

Government is it well no it’s down to obviously people committing crimes and going to to jail um I I know from listening very closely to Scotland’s Justice secretary that there’s a real desire and determination in order to ensure that we can have proper Rehabilitation so that we don’t have

This endless cycle which exists particularly amongst those people who live in poverty may I add who go into a lifestyle and that lifestyle is perpetuated throughout their entire existence on on our planet and we need to be in a position where we can change that and do good by these people I’m not

Entirely AR breast of the situation in England you’ll have to forgive me um well England’s do England’s doing what Scotland’s already doing which is releasing offenders early and Allison’s question is is Justice served by releasing offenders early Justice is served by making sure that someone doesn’t commit a crime again uh and

Breaking the link between reoffending which quite clearly exists and obviously if the prison system is under pressure that’s as a result of the financial decisions that have been taken by the treasury over very many years through austerity to cut back on investment in public services but we need to re we

Need to reappraise and refocus how we look at our justice system we shouldn’t just send everyone to jail on a whim people should only be going to jail for the most serious of crimes and people who can be rehab rehabilitated must be rehabilitated it benefits us all a well

Look this is just another symptom of I’m afraid what is now known as as broken Britain we have a real problem with Law and Order in this country we’ve had police Cuts so it’s a miracle if anyone even turns up if you report a crime there are big backlogs in

Our court system Justice delayed as Justice denied for a lot of the victims there are now not enough prison places to put all these people in prison many serious crimes like rape have practically become decriminalized people are going into shock and just filling their boots and the police won’t turn up

Antisocial behavior is off the chart so we have got a real problem with Law and Order in this country and the conservatives used to be the party of Law and Order and I just wish instead of like whipping up hatred against minorities or othering other communities I want to see politicians and ministers

Get on with the JW get tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime so I we have not got long so I’m going to ask you be reasonbly brief because I do want to tr and bring the audience in as well Lee well we talk about what the problem

Is the problem is a hangover from Co there was a lot of but there is and some sometimes politicians have to be clear you know you can you can laugh or scoff but the reality is that during covid when you take out a substantial proportion of your of your capacity in

Your courts for a while there’s a backlog that builds up and so a backlog of people have built up within the system including within jail we were building 20,000 new places but when the spike happened after Co we to work through that and we’re trying to work

Through it and that’s happening but it’s going to take time and what politicians need to do is to say we’ve got a problem let’s work through it let’s put a plan in place to do that which is what is happening but just on Prison places the 2019 Manifesto promised to add 10,000

More prison places then you had another go in 2021 promising 20,000 more places by the mid 2020s but by last July it was only just about 5 and a half thousand and and it’s increased I mean it takes a long time to build a prison I’ve been

Involved from you promised 20,000 by the mid 2020 and we and we’re doing that and we’re moving and we’re moving it Forward we’re making sure that more prison Places come on but whilst we’ve got a challenge of trying to work through this backlog we have an issue and and what we

Have to do when we say we’ve got an issue whether it’s in this part of public service or another part is have a plan which is what we’re doing building 20,000 places and making sure that we Implement that plan rather than going back to square one read me briefly

Melanie um the lady says it’s a joke I entirely agree the system is simply not fit for purpose I think Aisha is absolutely correct the system from top to bottom uh is uh is is is is juddering to a halt I don’t

I cof is a new one I have to say um but but it’s true the number of people that’s as may be my impression is that this this crisis is being caused also by much longer sentences more serious crimes but you know I’ve been I’ve I’ve been reporting on prisons and the

Justices a very long time and it’s always seemed to me that you know there are no votes in prisons and the prison system has been neglected for decades by Government after government prisons you know they don’t work because nobody cares about them they should be made to

Work they should be in my view they should be completely revolutionized made part of the community to have a joined up thinking uh none of that is happening they have been you know they they’ve been locking the key and locking people up and throwing away the key and in fact

Locking people up you know many many too many to a sell and everybody forgets about it and um you know unfortunately there is no public pressure because uh people don’t people prefer not think about it Jonathan Alon it’s not Justice it’s not right and also wasn’t right to

Try and hide this announcement and not tell people straight up this is what the government was doing the truth is Alon that there’s no Public Service working better today than when the conservative party came to power in 2010 but what is unusual about this this is actually an

Area where the government allocated some money they put 44 billion pounds into this and you know what they haven’t spent it theyve got about a quarter of that spent and why haven’t they spent spent it cuz they’re distracted cuz instead they’ve got to deal with their racist donors or Tori MP’s defecting to

Reform or this you know 4 this is I’m going end up saying every Mone you have a government that is a complete soap opera day in day out it is not focusing on the things that matter so is your plan to build more prison if

If you put 44 billion P into build new prison places build the prison places I don’t think that’s particularly complicated you haven’t Le but you haven’t cuz you’ve got no focus and the truth is put the parliament channel on any day look how early the legislative agenda finishes for this government

Every day look at what we will not get a proper focus on the things that matter in this country till we get what we want what we need what you all want and that is a general election and the chance to set the direction properly for the next

Four or you let me hear from Allison again yes so what do you think of what you’ve heard what worries me is there aren’t enough probation officers or people to do the rehabilitation when people are released when they get to their automatic released date and we’re releasing lots of people early they’re

Just going to be free to do whatever they want with no Rehabilitation no probation involvement no support they’re just going to be allowed to walk out okay I’ve got a minute left let me just hear a couple more points the woman at the very back with the glasses um yeah

So for me um Justice is about um Prosecuting the correct CL uh crimes um for me the fact that we’re still trying to um uh prosecute women for example for having an abortion that doesn’t feel right to me and um I I know that we don’t have the capacity in prisons but

Surely it’s about um that you know as as mentioned the links to um petty crime and the rehabilitation if someone doesn’t have safe and secure housing if they’re struggling for food if they’re struggling for work they’re more likely to commit crime and be in that situation if the rehabilitation is in place then

We don’t need these prison places in the first place okay thank you thank you for your point right we are out of time so forgive me to those who had your hands up you in particular had your hands off ages I’m sorry I didn’t get to you thank

You very much for putting all your points and taking part in the discussion thank you of course to the panel for coming on this evening um remember we have one more show before Easter that’s in buckton so do um in Middlesboro sorry so do come along to that and I just want

To say for these lovely pictures of Liverpool I’d like to thank Nick Fletcher Patrick Allen and Jack puges thank you for these it’s very nice for me to be back here since I was originally a we old girl even though I don’t sound like it so I know my

Goodness who’d have thought anyway from Liverpool from all of us here until next week [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] Bye-bye