Sports Ground Safety Authority Webinar

Join us for a special Extra Time webinar with the Sports Ground Safety Authority.

Andy Robinson, an inspector for the SGSA shares his insight and expertise to help support clubs across the National League System. With questions posed by Facilities Lead Mark Pover and In The Box host, Charlotte Richardson, watch this to find out crucial information whilst picking up useful hints and tips as the hour unfolds.

Hello everybody and a warm welcome to our Sports ground Safety Authority webinar my name is Charlotte Richardson and I’m going to be your host for the next hour as we hear from our range of guests on this subject before opening up today’s webinar to you to submit your

Questions as slides unfold and as we hear more about this development to our game if you have any questions that you would like me to pose to our guests then please use the chat function that is on the right hand of your screen to Simply submit your name the club you’re from

And the question you would like me to pose we’re going to dive straight in and I’m going to introduce my guests I’m delighted to say that we are joined by Andy Robinson who’s going to be leading the presentation this evening Andy is an inspector from the sports ground Safety

Authority also pleased to say we’re joined by Mark pover who is the facility lead of the England Football Club program we also have our league representatives in attendance as well it’s a warm welcome to Paul Kelly and Jason it’s great to have all of you with

Us and Mark before we hand over to Andy I just think it would be really good to set the scene for people um why we’ve host hosted this webinar why we’ve all come together and why the information we’re going to hear in the next hour is so significant for clubs moving

Forward yeah thanks Charlotte um the the the purpose and the the reason behind this was uh the clubs uh have had have gone through um some consultation uh in recent months uh recent weeks and the clubs had highlighted that um looking at the ground capacity uh ground management

Ground operations was uh a key function that they felt they needed some more help some more advice some more information on uh and that’s formed the basis of why we’re we’re we’re putting on this webinar tonight uh I’m sure there’s going to be lots of questions and and probably some follow-ups to this

Uh but this was just a start of of of trying to help and support the clubs um and give back from uh from our side you know from the fa Club program uh give back to the clubs exactly what they were looking for and and exactly what they’d

Asked for uh so that’s the that’s the rationale behind it starting point and this webinar is going to be recorded as well because we’re conscious that whilst we have Club Representatives with us tonight there will be people you want to forward this on to colleagues and volunteers from

Across the football club as well that will want to know about the subject at hand so without further Ado Andy I am going to pass over to you to bring us up to speed and to talk about the changes um that are coming forwards yeah good evening everybody and

Thanks Charlotte uh my name is Andy Robinson um as you heard I work for the sports grounds Safety Authority um I’m one of 11 um inspectors that work in England and Wales and between us we look after the 92 efl and Premier League clubs uh and license them for safety

Purposes uh we also look after Wembley Stadium um I’ve been there with the group for about five years in total um I also was a police officer for 30 years uh worked in the home office on football um and for my sins I did two uh Wembley Seasons

As a stadium safety officer there so um I hope I can bring a bit of knowledge to you but the only thing I will say is that I’m still learning so uh please do bear with me but I hope this is of interest to you um and just a quick one there

The regulatory uh role Sports ground Safety Authority so we we have a regulatory role in law uh following the Hillsburg disaster we were we were implemented uh and asked to oversee safety at the very strategic level um so those are the clubs that we look after

Those 92 in the top leagues and we have a a fairly regular engagement with those uh we also set uh standards where we can for safety Sports grounds uh we write the green guide we write the uh Safety Management at sports grounds um and any other advice and materials coming out

And we work at the European level uh and also with FIFA so we try and bring all of their good practice and and learnings uh back to the uh the UK England and Welles in particular and then of course we do advisory and that’s self-explanatory and that’s that’s why

We’re here tonight um at the moment we got a a big bit of work going on with the National League at step one um and some of that work is uh is is very much around informing uh educating and and supporting um and it’s it’s pretty much

Through that work I think that this this seminar came up because as well as step one and all the leagues above there’s there’s a thirst for knowledge uh further down uh and in particular with with with guys and girls like you uh in in the steps threes four and even Beyond

There so we’re going to Rattle through some of the very basic safety guidance we uh have a website the sgsa it’s just in the in the process this week I think of being changed over to a new one but we we have a website and on

That website and and no doubt markk will will push this out as a link uh we have what we call a safety Essentials guide um it’s not the green guide which is uh many many pages long and a thick volume of of Technical and uh practical advice

It’s the safety guide itself is very much aimed for for clubs like yourself um at the smaller venues um it explains the good practice it helps develop the important documents and and and and records that you you’re needing to do we provide templates uh and advice around

How how you can go about doing those it signpost uh a great deal of guidance that exists Elsewhere on our website or with Partners like those in in protect UK within the police terrorism units and it’s uh it’s supposed to be a quick and easy reference because we realize that

Your challenges are very much different to the ones um that that might be faced at some of the Premier League rounds and some of the some of the super stadiums that we see in and around the country I think that bottom one there is quite important a colleague of mine

Who’s just retired actually was quite Keen to put that on because when we read guides and and advice and guidance um it can sound very uh dictated it can sound like it it comes out and there is no option but your your level and the numbers of crowds that you’re dealing

With and and the challenges you face financially in terms of scale we very much would support you doing stuff in a proportionate way so I think some of the advice we’re putting out in this safety Essentials guide uh should assist you with that um and we’ll we’ll talk about

That shortly just some examples really if you go into the guide itself uh there’s plenty of hyperlinks on there there’s uh some worked examples from the green guide so uh how you work out safe capacities at grounds um how you decide what your P factors are and S factors

All that sort of stuff is in there there’s a a video actually uh which is pretty good by Rick riding um he’s he’s a technical expert’s who’s just retired but he he’s done tremendous am out of work for many years in the lower leagues and he talks through simply it’s about

25 minutes long how to go about your Capac calculations there’s stuff in there about Steward fact sheets what you should have in terms of plans and we’ll talk about that tonight some on accessibility and then the others that you can see there um for yourself um so

You know this safety Essentials guide is is really a portal into a load of other bits of different advice that you can get a hold of and use so uh one of the um the team I know sent round um some questionnaires asking what what the most common uh interest

Was out there in terms of how we could assess the Z sgsa at your level and I think uh the one of the top uh responses was uh how do we do capacity calculations that are green guide compliant why do they need to be green guide compliant um because that’s what

The fa uh and your leagues will use as the as the guide the standard for capacity calculations and and if if they are convinced that the stuff that you’ve done is compliant with the green guide then it’s more readily accepted across the industry what a capacity calculations

For well I think everybody would agree um without understanding how big your Stadium can be in terms of safety um and the numbers of Spectators that can safely attend then there’s there’s no going forwards really so it’s the foundation really for a safe Stadium um we’ve seen that at many many events

Across the the the world World in fact uh tragedies where too many people are in stadiums or in parts of stadiums and very quickly things can turn very nasty so the idea is to get your ground uh measured assessed and understood so that you know what they can take in total and

What areas of the ground can take what numbers um and then you can adapt it from there on in so um we’re going to talk you through that it’s a stepbystep process it is it’s quite simple in terms of the steps um but there is a bit of

Technicality in in how you actually do do the measurements and we’ll talk about that shortly anything that you guys do with safety uh I can’t advise you strongly enough having been in a witness box many times when things have gone not so well um but it’s your records and

Your reviews that are really important so anything you do do um if you can get into the Habit very early on of of of putting it all in one place so that you can refer back to it the date who was with you what happened that that would

Be fantastic and that that’s a first bit of really golden good practice um you’re very happy to share and I I would encourage you to share capacity calculations if you do deal with local authorities uh with them some of them are very supportive if you do have

Safety advisory groups I know some do and some don’t but your partners would be interested in understanding that and of course these numbers these final numbers that you come up with are really important for ground grading as I explained but also short notice Cup matches um so I had a phone call about

Oh probably about five six weeks ago early rounds of the FA Cup um where one Club um called in and said could we pop down they got a match in 10 days and could we do the capacity calculations because they need to sell the tickets and they’re expecting a sellout the the

The sad thing is there that’s really too late to do that um you really need to have this stuff in in in your in your in your manuals and understand it from the very start because when you do get the big match and it comes out of the out of

Thin air following an FA Cup or a trophy drawer or a bars draw uh that’s when you need your your whole safety team and the commercial team and the ticketing office and especially the owner to understand how big your ground actually is and what is the safe number of people to put into

It because that’s the first questions that the police uh and indeed sometimes the fa will ask you so really important to have this stuff for ground grading but really important to have it for your short notice Cup matches uh and as the foundation throughout the season so the capacity calculations

Start off with understanding how many people you can get into to the viewing areas and that’s what this is all about the grounds are huge but you can’t just simply say well we’ve got you know a th square meters we can put that that many people in there’s only certain places

Where people can view from um and they tend to be uh either seated stands standing Terraces or level standing areas which I’ll touch on in a moment now the number of seats in a stand sounds quite good um so if you’ve got a stand with a roof on or without a roof

On it will have a certain number of seats it matter is not to us in particular and and anybody else whether they’re allocated to directors or the press or or to your supporters ticket people are interested in that but from a capacity point of view um and when

You’re looking at the limits on ground grading it’s the number of uh seats that are usable importantly though there will be some there that are quite restricted in their views um it might be that there’s pillars in the way it might be that during ground development last year

You you’ve put fences and walls up in places that they weren’t originally intended so there might be seats uh where you can’t actually see the play and it’s important that they actually do see 100% of the field of play so that’s touch line to touch line goal line to

Goal line they should be able to see all those areas all the seats should be of a def decent um sight line uh we we call that the C value let’s let’s ignore that what what it means the C value is that if you’re sitting in front or behind

Somebody that those behind or in front of you you can actually see the pitch um if you have very low rake if you go to some of the cricket grounds you’ll see they have chairs around the ground you you can’t really see over the heads and

If you can’t see the pitch and you can’t see over the heads of the people in front then you end up standing up and once you stand up you guys uh who are trying to control this begin to lose uh control in terms of movement but also

Numbers of people entering the area so very important that the seats uh have a good uh SE value which is um which is as I say the the amount of heads space that you’ve got over the person in front to see the people and if it’s too low then

Then those seats should not be used unacceptable viewing distances there are you know you you are dealing with some clubs and grounds and places that you’re hiring you’re leasing um or that you you’ve been in for many years and suddenly you’ve done quite well and you’re having to squeeze stuff in it’s

Not great to have a long distance between yourselves uh and the pitch because again people won’t stay in those seats they’ll just move and then they’re going to give you a problem um later on um and any that don’t comply with the minimum standard for seat width so that

That’s all there written down in the guidance but we tend to talk about 500 millimeters now is is the average uh seat width from the center of one seat to the next um if you’ve got existing grounds then it can it can be smaller but if you go for anything too small and

Too narrow you’ll simply find once again that people won’t actually sit in the seats and and you’ll get all the problems we’ve talked about before so those are your Basics so what you should be able to do is walk up to a stand uh have good access to it it it’s nice and

Safe it’s well constructed and it’s a simple case of counting the seats in those areas and that gives you your seated stand capacity um standing Terraces is slightly different lots of you have these um it’s about the available viewing area so this is the area that’s just behind the barrier uh

What we can’t include there and it’s a common mistake is the space that is used for the gangways um the deep space that is sometimes at the rear of these Terraces it should be the number of steps uh the width of those uh multiplied um

By the by the front and the sides you’ll get a square meterage and then what we tend to say is that the maximum density you can put into any area like that is is about 47 people into 10 square meters or 4.7 people if you can find a 7 into

One square meter you get anything above that people won’t go into it um they’re not comfortable and in fact if I’m honest I’ve I’ve dealt with a few clubs recently who put new new Terraces in and they’re struggling to get 40 4.7 or 47 people per 10 square meters people are

Now they’re they’re slightly larger than they used to be back in the 80s and the 90s uh and also everybody wants to use their iPhone so nobody’s wanting to squeeze up close to each other and that type of thing so people won’t go into these crowded areas like they did in the

Uh in past years so you may not actually be able to get that many people into that square metrage and you may you may have to reduce it but the the Baseline figure for for you guys this level is um you know um 47 10 square meters so that

That’s an important one so you simply measure the floor space on on your Terrace you subtract any spaces that are used for gangways and then you come out with a square merriage and you multiply it by the 47 that we’ve talked about there and uh you you’ll get a number

That comes up um when you consider terracing though really important especially for those that are moving up the leagues or have settled nicely into your positions and people are talking about investing it’s really important I think and a lot of people stress this at the football

Foundation and in the uh the fa uh Club program as well that you think to the Future because you can end up U like some of the clubs uh you end up in the the AFL League to or you end up in the National League and you become subject

To far more scrutiny and if the teres have been designed in such a way that was practical and and slightly cheaper at the time and and that type of thing you you may find that you not able to use them in the way that you were before

Because the the the whole structure of a Terrace is designed a so that it’s safe for people to stand on and they can see the pitch from wherever they stand B it doesn’t get overcrowded and C that there’s no movement within the crowd and there’s no potential for o overcrowding

Or in fact people in The Terraces get so fed up with the poor view that they go and stand somewhere else uh in the ground which isn’t set aside for viewing um so really important that you try and comply when you’re building and designing new Terraces as far as you can

Uh with the recommended guidance there but you do have to think about the physical condition and the lighting conditions as all that sort of stuff as well um to make sure that uh you you can’t forget and or the de developers and the the builders can’t forget that

When they build this stuff they’re going to be used at night time uh they’re going to be used in the winter in the late afternoons when things get dark and although the flood lights often give you an ambient lighting um they still need to be safe and well lit so so that’s how

You work out the sea areas and the standing teres uh fairly straightforward the more tricky one for you guys at your level is around the level standing um so this is where you’ve got your supporters uh maybe on one two or even occasionally three sides of the pitch standing up against the

Rails um what we could do there is we can only go to a maximum depth uh for the viewing area there so the number the depth away from the the pit side fence onto the hard standing can can only be used as a viewing area up to 1.5 M deep

And in fact that’s actually quite generous um the reason is because you could probably get three maybe four people uh one behind the other into that area but beyond that no one’s going to see the pitch and and the activity um and they’ll simply peel off and go to

Places that you don’t want them to like uh entrances um radial gangways and lateral gangways and that type of thing so it really is a maximum depth of 1.5 uh for your viewing area up against the fence and to measure the level standing capacity is probably one of the easiest

So you simply do the L length of the fence line uh along that area that they’re viewing from uh you multiply if you’ve got that 1.5 MERS uh and and then you you get your Square meterage um or or a square block uh along the fence and then you pop

4.7 people into each meter and you can get quite High numbers um particularly along on um the sidelines along the touch lines as opposed to the goal um but there are some there are some issues that we do commonly see I’ve been to a few clubs in the lower leagues where in

The capacity calculations in order to get the numbers up to the right levels they’ve put level standing areas in front of a standing Terrace or a seated area which of course obstructs immediately anybody trying to watch from those those allocated areas so there’s no point in having a Terrace uh seven St

Deep uh which can see the pitch really well and people can enjoy themselves and then lining up three people deep in front of them you can only have one viewing area viewing the pitch at one time so that is something to watch because a lot of the people doing the

Capacity calculations will come under pressure to squeeze as many people onto paper as they can but the practicalities are guys that they just simply won’t work because the people on the Terrace will will leave their position and go and find themselves standing elsewhere and your your terorist will be unused

But the pitchside rail level standing area will be busier than it should be now there are a couple of catches here um some of the very um smaller grounds and some of those older grounds um generally have a hard standing that that was required of about 0.9 meters that

Goes around the outside so that people can move backwards and forwards um that that is what we would call the circulation route and and that should be uh 1.2 M wide um the reason we asked for the gang ways and and circulation routes to be 1.2 meters wide is because on

Average when we’re moving we we each take up about 600 millimeters believe it or not um so that will allow uh one person walking one way and one the other um so it it looks very scientific but it’s as basic as that so the importance

There is that if you have got a very small ground and you’ve got fencing behind and you’ve got the pitchside fence right up against the goal um and you’ve only got 1.2 meters of Sur circulation unfortunately you won’t then be allowed to be a have people stand in

That area because they will simply cut that circulation route out of action so the ideal number if you if you’re going for a minimum would be that you have 1.2 M of gang whale circulation route uh along the back uh of the hard standing and the front section uh up against the

Rail is 1.5 met deep so you need 2.7 M of depth away from your pitchside fence to to maximize your Your Capacity if for example you only had 2.2 M um then simply your viewing area would only be one meter deep um and you can see automatically you start to lose uh the

Head count on your your spectator capacity so uh that’s a really important one and that’s one to push back on when you’re getting the Astros uh or the 3Gs or 4G pitches fitted quite often they’ll come with the pitchside fences have a good look at that because

You really want to be going for 2.7 MERS of hard standing to maximize your viewing area because you don’t know where you’re going to be in two or three seasons um and you might want to be squeezing out as much space as you can and what better that they lay the 2.7

Meters of hard standing uh when they’re doing the rest of that work or move the fence slightly closer to the pitch than you having to retrofit it and and tear it all up again so if you your average ground down in League uh or steps three

And four and Below even step one um you’re going to end up with those three calculations I suspect you’ll have your number of people who are seated your number who stood on Terraces and your numbers that are Level standing and to those in each of the areas you then

Apply what we call the s factor assessment which is all about Safety Management um and that’s just really there’s plenty about this in the guidance so I won’t go through it in too much detail but you get a score that comes out of that says how good is our

Safety Management how good are the stewards the control rooms the radios um and and our policies and all that sort of stuff um and you come out with a score between n and one most grounds I have to say uh score themselves as one uh and that means that you can use

Basically 100% of your of of the of the people identified in the seats the terracing and the level standing so if your capacity is 3,000 you times it by that one and you get 3,000 if you had very poor Safety Management and you’d have problems and you can’t get stewards

And the control rooms out of use and the cctv’s uh no longer working that s factor assessment should should really be coming down and let’s just say it came down to 0.5 then Your Capacity there for 3,000 in the ground would would quickly fall down to 1,500 I hope

Hope that makes sense um and then we have a what we call a p Factor assessment and that’s about the physical condition um how are the barriers how are the seats how are The Terraces uh how’s the roof on on the stands uh and and how do people generally um feel saf

In the ground in terms of all the all the physical aspects and the structural surveys and that type of thing and once again that’s a that’s a score somewhere between n and one if you’re really good you get one and you can have the maximum capacity and if if you if you’re pretty

Poor and it’s down to 0. five which we do get sometimes or a particular St might go down to zero uh because the roof is has been damaged recently in a storm or something like that uh if it goes down to zero then that St can have

No capacity and and that’s how we use the p in the s factor uh to tweet your capacities there so when you’ve done the p and the s factor on on the holding capacity as we call it so how many people can you get it safely in the

Ground you apply your p and your s factor you you’ll come out with your your final number um and that tends to be the lower number I’ve got to say at most grounds because the other the other numbers you need to consider you’ll recognize these is just about really the

Entry um so many of you will have had visits by the ground graders and people like that and they say you need another turn sty and you’re like well well we’ve got two that that’s more than enough for our average attendance but they they only take about

660 people per hour and that’s that’s the that’s the number that we work on um so if you’ve got a crowd of over um 2,000 then you’re going to need more than two two turn Styles and that is because at some point like I said earlier you’ll get the big match you’ll

Get the promotion run or you’ll get the relegation battle or you’ll potentially get an FA Cup or a trophy vas match where suddenly you’re finding that you’re going to need everything possible open uh so you can get the people in the ground and that’s what the capacity is

There for what can you safely go up to uh and in order to go up to it you need to get people in safely so so that’s important um what you do need to consider with the turn Styles be careful uh a lot of them are starting to rely on

The scanners uh you’ll know that um and so what’s your Wi-Fi like because if it’s rubbish and it’s not working then it’s going to be a real slow entry and that might slow down the people coming in if you’re going to have a problematic match with where you’re doing a lot of

Heavy searching then that again will slow the numbers of people coming down so you’re going to want to advertise an earlier gate opening and have a system in place where you can search and get people through they can slow down the rates of flow so you you need to be

Careful 660 an hour won’t always work for you but tends to be a good guide um and then uh people leaving uh this is all about your exit gate widths and most of the grounds I’ve been to at your levels tend to have plenty of exit gates

Um and it’s just about how you manage them so if if if they’re having to go up steps then we we recommend that only 66 people uh can go up a set of steps in one minute uh if it’s a meter wide and if it’s a meter wide and it’s flat then

You’ll get 82 through there and these these calculations are fairly fairly simple and as I say uh are in Rick’s video we’ll be on be on here for you um and then you will you’ll work it out um you should include staff for emergencies but you tend to find that the the exit

Gates are ample um and that’s only for emergencies because after the end of of a match normally it’s only the it’s only the actual Spectators who leave so what you suddenly do you end up with a few figures here you’ve got your holding capacity number of people who can go in

And view uh the game you’ve got your entry capacity your egress capacity and if it’s any different your your other emergency exits come in but those three entry egress and holding whichever one is lowest is your capacity that’s really important um you can’t have a ground

With 10,000 people able to Lea it safely um if only 6,000 viewing seats it’s not a capacity of 10,000 it will be the lowest figure uh which would be you know 1,900 or something like that so you you just need to bear that in mind so it’s

Not as complex as it seems um and you you can do this yourself if you take your time uh and measure carefully um but it’s uh it’s something that just has to be done recorded very well and review quite often the other questions that came up um uh other than Capac calculations was

About the event Safety Management how how do you manage stuff now we have the event Safety Management guide uh which is uh I think 60s for an online version but we hope that the safety Essentials guide gives you much of what you’ll need so what we’re looking at there is

Fundamentally a few of the questions that came in is how how do we plan an event what is the cycle for event planning and I think this sort of slide which is in some of the guidance we give out uh makes sense there I mean the event planning starts you know let’s

Take a let’s take a football club for a season the event planning will start the day you finish the previous season um you’ll want to hold your debriefs you’ll want your plans you’ll want to know your aspirations have you gone up have you gone down how’s the staff performed um

Who’s who’s in what position within within the hierarchy is that working well and then you’ll look at all your risk assessments did they succeed and then you get into the the the event planning itself and you you’ll look at your first few matches and you’ll you’ll decide what what time kickoff is what

Sort of resources you need um and and what are the the differences on each match uh the first one might be a a fairly lowkey uh preseason friendly the next one might be the Opening match of the season with great expectations and a big crowd on a sunny day and the next

One might be a small Trophy match or something like that where you Your Capacity again or your spectator arrival and and uh um um all that sort of stuff is going to vary quite wildly you’re then going to have to deliver the event and then importantly you’re going to

Have to wrap it up at the end of the day and again you need to learn what went well that’s really really important you guys are out there really really on limited funding limited resources doing an absolutely brilliant job um because you are up against it you know when you

Look at some of the Fantastic grounds that are built designed 100% from the floor up Tottenham hots for for example for football crowds and they’ve got a super duper systems and stewards and all that sort of stuff they they quite often they can have an easier day than you do

Having to deal with unexpected numbers arriving or problematic supporters that you had no idea were going to attend so you need to debrief see what went well Pat yourselves on the back but at the same time have a look at what things could be improved I I prefer to use that

Phrase than what went wrong get the finger of blame out um and then you you go through that cycle again um and throughout that you you take the learning into the next match throughout that we we call it the golden thread but I think if you can get the balance right

Between safety security and service that’s fantastic a lot of your clubs you’ll know the people so well you’ll get regular people turning up on a regular basis not like Wembley Stadium where they come once every 10 years you’ll know your people you want to make that a really welcoming uh place you

Want to come back and that’s where service comes in you need your security in the black background if it’s a difficult match it needs to be highly visible if it’s a low-key match just keep them in the background but have them aware and at all times you want it

To be safe and that’s it’s all about the checks before during and after the match um so that’s the cycle that we would use you plan the season then plan the first few matches then you learn uh and then you improve there’s all sorts of stuff in in

The guidance uh about a day a couple of people said how would you see a day Day in the Life operating whether you’re at Tottenham Wembley or or down in the in the lower leagues down um you know with four 500 people coming it’s probably pretty much the same system just the

Level of detail and the numbers of people doing it will change but what you want to do is couple of days before get somebody to come in open up the ground make sure the electrics are working your CCTV the stuff that you’re going to require Engineers to come in and fix really

Needs to be sorted out 48 hours ahead so you give yourself a chance on the day nothing worse than walking in and finding nothing’s working um if it’s cold or it’s been windy check for damage check for frozen pipes pitch looks fantastic but if the toilets don’t work

Then it’s the match is going to be off because the public won’t be happy you come in on the day you do another walk around you make sure everything’s in place the teams are in place the reliable people you you need to deliver this are on way to work and everybody’s

Happy your stting agency or your your staff that are doing the stting and security all up for it you’re doing your briefings your pre-checks you send your staff out check your area make sure it’s safe then you open the gates uh then you you going to search the away fans or

Segregate and you make sure that works and then the cycle goes through the day and we’ve got a lot of advice on how you you want to just check that record it and recording again you know if it’s just the checklist of that list there and you’ve ticked and signed against it

At least you can say you did it and you can say I did the pre-checks that morning at 12:30 and there wasn’t a problem yes there was a problem halfway through the second half but that was that was something we didn’t see coming because we’ done our checks and

Everything was fine because sometimes when things go wrong there is a bit of a blame culture out there with safety and it’s just really nice if you can get your piece of paper or one of your team can say absolutely 100% sure we checked that and all went well well and then of

Course throughout you’ll be dealing with incident so these these documents we’ve put out safety entral guidance have got lots more detail and advice on that um some of you will have been uh up in the upper leagues uh some of you will just adopt really good practice and that is

To uh have an operations manual uh which also supports delivery of safety on the day and this is all about the plan pretty much for the season really uh and there’s just a whole bundle there you can probably see them of all the things

That should be in a in a good Ops manual whether it’s uh Arsenal or whether it’s one of the lower league clubs you know my lowest league club at the moment is Sutton United they’ both got good operations manuals they just vary in size um and for you guys down there um

If you’ve got your stewarding plan for the season pretty much worked out if you’ve got your uh safeguarding plan and all that sort of stuff it might only be one page long um but as long as you’ve got something written down that you can start with that’s fantastic and then

There the season goes on or the big matches come up you just get that plan out that generic plan and you review it you look at your fire safety plan if you’ve had an incident review it make sure it’s okay so that’s there for the season that sits there and everybody

Understands he needs to what what what’s required and how what maintenance schedules need to be adopted and all that sort of stuff but on the day you then need your your other plan your event management plan again it might only be a couple of pages long u and it

Just identifies who’s in charge what what times it’s kicking off who you’re playing what time the coaches ared the players has arrive there a sort of document you can send around to all your all your people who are interested in the operation that day and once read everyone understands where you’re coming

From uh and that that will that will change up until the last 10 minutes uh you know we’ve all been there where you end up printing it off five minutes before the briefing because something else has changed but that’s your live document for the day that you should be

Relying on so that’s your event management plan that sits on top of your business as usual up there with the Ops manual and then all of that stuff uh that you’ve used on the event day all the checks the tests the inspections the log that we talked about earlier and the

Event management plan and the debrief should really go into one one folder in the control room or in the boss’s office be locked away so uh for a few years so that if anything crops up later you know we do get it and you’ll get it you all

Know these people who I came to your match and I slipped over and twisted my anchor I had like 4,000 there’s nothing nicer than going to your file or your folder and finding out there was no incidents that day um and that everybody was happy

Uh and and this is a bit of a malicious uh claim so really worthwhile keeping those records and equally if something does go wrong that’s gone wrong before it’s nice to be able to get out and say we should have spotted that and dealt with it what happened last time and

Compare the the incident so please do keep records They really will uh save your bacon on more than one occasion um one of the other questions you guys asked uh was around studing plans and fact sheets and all that sort of stuff so studing plans very basic basic really

Um you’re going to need stewards uh the reason the stewards are there is to support the the arrival of the spectators their their time there their circulation their timing The Terraces they’re moving about to deal with incidents to uh potentially spot problems before they start and flag them

Up to the control room uh to look after the pitch make sure people that go on to deal with all that sort of stuff um so you will have in your your own Mind’s Eye you will know from your ground well we couldn’t open and we couldn’t run the

Operation without at least six so that’s five on the emergency exit gates uh and one in in that position over there by the tunnel so there’s your safety critical roles but we also need people one per Terrace one per stand um the odd ones dotted around the pitch Gates and

You’ll end up with around you know the the number that you identify as the correct number there and they’ll all be doing different jobs and this goes back to your event management plan so you got your basic St plan you know exactly what you need is your minimum your you’ll

Probably go over and above that because you need a few spare for good customer service and that type of thing but your minimum is understood but then you’ll get the difficult match and you just beef up the numbers because you want more on the seg lines or more on the

Searching or or or whatever um and that that’s where the response teams come in here they come response teams and the pitch protection and the searching so they they must now as they have always actually been they must be um security industry uh uh accredited licensed so your door supervisor badges for all

Those activities so you have your basic stews but you probably have a uh you know four or five um um SAA um on on on an average big match um smaller if it’s going to be quiet and business as usual but more than that if you’re going to

Have a bigger way attendance and they’re difficult um so they’ll go on to the plan as well um you’ll talk about in your plan how you induct people to the stadium because you might not get the same people every time uh they need to know the very Basics and you should sign

That off and then there’s a opportunity potentially for toolbox sessions which is just a sort of plan what what if this went wrong what if that went wrong uh and that type of thing and then you want to know what standard of training they have is it level two spectator safety is

That what you’re hiring is the contract your Steward company at that level if it is and you’re paying for it you should be making sure that they turn up with those qualifications and then if they’re in-house stewards uh that you’re using um then you should check that they’ got continual development because things

Change all the time so that would be your basic studing plan and for for your ground with the some of the capacities which are slightly smaller again you’re only looking at a few sheets of A4 but it’s there it’s written down you know what you’re doing you know what to check

Against and if things go wrong you know where you can you can improve we’ve got all the fact sheets for that uh on on the website again so all the different complexities we we go into detail and explain uh what they are um there was also a question about Martin’s law which

Is very relevant at the moment this is this is getting a bit stuck in Parliament I think everybody’s admitting that uh the bill is in place this is an extract from a November uh 2023 um update um what do you guys need to know you need to know that you will

Probably end up in the enhanced here even when it comes into being uh because most your venues are over 800 I would I would expect um you will need to do certain things at the moment and there’s lots of debate to be had yet but we’re talking about you having to notify the

Regulator that you exist um demonstrating that you’ve taken reasonable measures um keeping and maintaining security document or plan um and then you need to be uh appointing somebody who’s in charge of that so it sounds very familiar to me to the fire safety plan which of course it is um

What it’s talking about is for some premises you’ve never experienced an operation before this is going to be a bit of a challenge but I I’m I’m pretty confident for you guys that you have stuff in place you have stuff in place to make sure bad people don’t get in

Because you don’t want uh disorder in your ground you’ve got plans in place to stop bad things coming in because you don’t want pyate Technics and and bottles and all that sort of stuff coming in so football stadia sadly or or or to your benefit now have had to learn

The hardware and you have good plans in place and much of the much of the plans around counterterrorism uh apply equally well to those who wish to cause trouble and problems at football so I don’t think it will be a huge impact for you other than you will need to write uh

Write stuff down and make sure it’s recorded uh and and able to be viewed um should they choose that at the moment there is quite a lot of consultation going on around the lower tier so that’s the 100 799 people um and I think that

Will go on for some time before we see any huge change so just watch this space by all means we’ve got a running commentary on the sjsa website about where we are your leagues uh the fa uh and others are are fighting your battles for you to make sure that you’re not

Overburdened unnecessarily um so so keep in touch with them and if you got any views or thoughts let them know couple of other ones um if you go to the safety guidance uh you’ve talked about pyrate Technics there’s good guidance on our safety guidance about what to do with

Pyate Technics many of you have the challenges over hot pyros and and 4G pitches which you’ll have the risk assess locally but the general advice is uh let them burn out let the match pause the referees are very used to that now you’ll even see it in the Premier League

Matches on Sky uh everybody stands around it burn out and then they remove it from the pitch and off to a safe place so pyro the advice is on there we’ve got advice on there about medical related incidents in the crowd uh which has been quite popular uh recently where

Play stops uh we’re trying to stop all the all the national leagues uh the efl ETC are trying to stop the match being stopped where it’s not necessary but occasionally it has to be um there’s advice also on there about terrorism which is really important and the extreme heat because uh things are

Changing there so all of that is on on on our website um and and that’s a quick rattle through and I hope I’ve covered most of the questions that uh that came in before but I think at that point mark I’ll I’ll hand back to you for any any

Clarification or or new questions that might be coming my way thanks Andy that was really helpful um thank you for that um there has been one coming on the U on the question um and uh it’s from Steve Steve’s asking when Ground sharing if the ground has a local Authority safety certificate does

That cover exemption from the Shar of stewards from being siia qualified wow thanks Steve yeah let me talk you through this so uh the siia exemption is in place so well many years ago when the ACT came in 2006 um they realized that if everybody had to have an SAA badge the football

Stadiums would have to shut so they gave uh working through the fa and and the leagues they gave an exemption for football rounds so where where a ground has a safety certificate in place so if you are ground sharing and it has a general safety certific certificate that

Covers the whole ground yes the exemption applies to all those stewards uh who are trained and working at that ground and it it matters not whether their agency or or you’ve hired them in that’s fine what you will probably find potentially at your level though is that the regulated stand certificate is the

Safety certificate that applies and that certificate only applies well will cover the whole ground in terms of terminology the certificate itself will often only apply to that stand so the exemption bizarrely only applies to the staff working in the footprint of that stand so all others will need to be Sia badged

I’ve got to say I don’t know uh what it’s like where you guys are it varies quite wildly in the upper leagues but a lot of the upper leagues are now finding it just easier to bring in uh people who’ve got siia badges because um not the they’re hugely plentiful but there’s

Certainly enough out there to get the job done uh and it pre prevents all the arguments about the the gray lines so I hope that helps thank you Andy um I don’t think there are any others um I think just to just to back up what you said about

Martin’s law um the fa and lots of other governing bodies are pushing back and and questioning the uh the detail within Martin’s law so I think uh that ones watch this space um and let let the governing bodies deal with that via government um and then as and when we

Know exactly what the situation is we’ll be able to circulate that uh and I’m sure there’ll be uh lots of information coming through on the fa website the League’s website and um it will probably be covered in the um the the the national league paper and and lots of

Other uh sort of outlets uh in relation to what the impact will be on um on on football I think the um the other areas um I think have been covered um I don’t know if anybody else has got any other questions um and uh and if uh if I think

That what’s useful and and what’s important to mention here is that you’ve you’ve actually put down a number of um uh pres uh Publications and uh guidance notes and you’ve mentioned those uh Andy and and I think what we will make sure is that we get those circulated to uh to

The leagues and and uh to the clubs um so that they can they can access those and and make use of those uh I think if I’m right uh there was something like eight to 10 different guidance notes around stewarding is that right Andy yeah that’s right and the siia question

Is is will be in there for example uh the safety critical roles bit will be in there so it just gives you uh it gives you the rationale for creating your plan and hopefully answers some fairly very common questions which crop up of which the answers are really important so yeah

That that that’s the important bit I mean that that you know I very much rely on this the whole reason for us producing that guidance is for the for the below efl clubs to to have access to not the Deep technical detail that that that that that bogs everybody down and somewhat

Frightens most of us um but just to get access to the Practical stuff that you can apply locally at your club and where where you are about to undertake projects you know uh I I deal with a lot of the um Stadium Improvement plan um Project funding applications and that

And have a quick sight of those and it’s just those little areas where people are forgetting the very Basics and then you build and construct something that when you come further up the league some some kind person comes along and says no that’s not being built in compliance

With X wild Ed if you can get it right first time your life becomes a lot easier and if I’m honest and I think we’ve all been there we all we all in these um safety roles in the operational roles and delivery roles we come under a

Lot of pressures from from from uh owners and and and uh interested parties uh and directors and that sort of thing who who whose job it is not to understand um how things work but it but it sometimes it could be yours and for

You to be able to fall back as I used to do many times produce a document that says look it’s written here we we we can’t do the amazing indit uh sort of thing that you’d like to do but we can do something slightly different if you

Can get it right first time that that would be my my thing and you use the documentation that we Supply um as as your your evidence and your rationale for for trying to influence any planning and and projects that are taking place and um then then you won’t

Have to take the blame directly you can blame the sgsa Andy thank you so so much I mean I think the point that you’ve both made is there is so much information and guidance out there but actually being able to pose questions to you directly is a rather unique opportunity so we’ve

Got around about 10 more minutes left and I would advise everyone on the call to keep posing those questions and actually we’ve had one come in from Rob which was a question sort of in my mind as well because there’s a lot of information out there but training is

Another thing so I wondered Andy in the first instance could you suggest some good training and in particular the question that Rob’s posed is support for training for safety officers is there any yeah okay um I mean there for safety officers um there’s briefly talk you through so you

Got a level two qualification for a steward you got a level three qualification for a supervisor uh on the last round where we went through with the qualifying bodies back in about five six years ago we we did introduce uh a level three extended which is for good supervisors who could

Probably take command as a safety officer Commander control uh in steps three and four it gives you a lot more detail about managing safety managing crowds and that type of thing uh whilst not overburdening you with with with reams of uh requirements about maintenance and and and all that sort of

Stuff stuff so the level three extended is is good for good for the the lower leagues uh who have not got huge resources uh and are not managing large amounts of people on on on difficult match days and that’s much more affordable and accessible we would always encourage level four uh standard

Training for safety officers ultimately uh but we do appreciate when you’re Rising through the leagues quite quickly you can’t always catch up with that um in in terms of the CPD stuff uh we we run a conference each year the sgsa and um the rest of it is very much

Um I would encourage some of you guys if you can you you’ll all have clubs locally to you who are are higher up uh in in various leagues you might have efl clubs and that sort of stuff nearby if you’re you’re interested I I would approach those individual safety

Officers who tend to be either full-time or part-time uh buddy up with them um and see what they’re doing and Shadow them on Match dayss and that type of thing because there is a you know there’s a fair bit of training out there in terms of you can learn the green

Guard you can learn this that and the other you can watch these videos but there’s nothing like being there on a match there watching somebody operate and that gives you then your chances to pick up the best best practice as well so I had a club I’ve mentioned them

Before Sutton came up a bit of a shock to them in some ways that they came up into the efl uh had a lot of challenges with the ground but also um lent very heavily on Fulham Football Club there was a relationship there between the safety officer who was fairly knew and

Fulham football club and they were absolutely brilliant they they they just provided all the support knowledge and and uh uh information shared tremendous amounts of documents that that uh which cut everybody back in terms of having to write stuff from new it could be adapted

For local stuff so I I would go for that that sort of that buddy system if you can do that it’s it’s really worthwhile yeah that sounds a really good piece of advice and you mentioned uh the key word for a lot of clubs of course especially in these times is affordability and

We’ve had a couple CP of messages come through around the costs of doing some training courses um Craig has has posted in level two funding seems to be very scarce could we do in-house training and have it certified somehow is that a possibility at all Andy um yeah it’s

Really difficult I I would um I would suggest U getting hold of somebody like the football safety Officers Association um because they have got people again uh when I speak to efl uh some of the league two and League one clubs they’re getting their some of their training

Provided free by colleges who operate in their area um and that’s not uncommon so some of these higher League clubs who are are dealing with higher turnover there for a higher cost but not having all the money of the of the cousins in the Premier League um have good access

So again I think I I I would point you there uh to the football safety Officers Association or um in into your your local clubs um and and again your local Authority so your local Authority might let’s take somewhere in heart sh they might work with Harford County council

Local Authority also looks after Watford and other places rugby clubs and they might have a good handle and give you good advice so if you even if you’re not in regular contact uh with your local Authority or even the local police you you may find that they’re dealing with

These issues as well so football supporters uh sorry football safety Officers Association a buddy safety officer or or or a local Authority might be might be able to help you that but there is certainly money out there which is provided via government sources uh it’s just a matter of finding it I’m

Conscious that time is is ticking by but I will just remind everyone joining us live that you can post your questions in the Q&A section we’ve got enough time to go through a couple more and the next one I want to ask is saying should we record the person’s detail on a medical

Report form or is it just the initials oh right okay good good one here so Freedom uh sorry gdpr and all that sort of stuff um I I think the most important thing normally if you’re bringing in medical so you’re bringing St John’s or you’re bringing you know

Medics 24 or somebody like that they will deal with the patient and they will take those details because they need them for their their records what they should then provide you with is they can either do it one or two ways and it’s for you to agree what we tended to do

Was have a unique reference number so it might be the date of the match and number one is the first patient uh but what you do need to know you don’t need to know their names or their date of birth but it is good to know their AG

Age and their sex and the location that where the incident occurred in the ground you can then if you get a complaint in some weeks later or you need to do some debriefs or or or or something worse happens you can then go back to the St John’s or or whoever

You’re using and say you know unique reference number one on this date uh that patient um we think they’re trying to make a claim against us um Can can we get their permission to share details and and it’s just a matter of trace it back so no the club does not need the

Name and the date of birth and all that sort of stuff but you need to be able to track it back to them um without having to put um too many complex systems in place thanks Andy and sort of final question really um sometimes when we get the opportunity to have these webinars

And get clubs together more often or not there’s some really good practice out there that we can all rinse and repeat but sometimes it’s handy to know where perhaps mistakes have been made elsewhere that you can recommend and advise other people around so I just wondered has there ever been anything

That kind of comes up um quite regularly is quite common that you would just love to say to people look just bear this in mind to save yourself or cost or whatever it might be thank you for the opportunity to say this yeah um yeah I I

Would say what I we’re halfway run the national league clubs at the moment and one of the real difficult ones is when when they double up for example they’ll put level standing against the fence in front of a Terrace or a stand and count count both areas in their capacity that

Gets them through the the ground grading system but of course when you come down and look at it practically it does not work um so be very careful um when you’re coming under pressure to absolutely maximize your capacity because some of the grounds on the ground grading uh which isn’t a safety

Issue it’s a leue a league requirement if you’ve got a if you’ve got a requirement of you of 1,300 and your capacity is 1,310 any slight adjustment to that can can can cause you sort of uh disproportionate problems really so where possible those involved in these projects don’t take the easy rout double

Check um that actually this is a well worked out set of capacity calculations and you’re not squeezing people into places that they’re genuinely never going to go into and that they’re not they’re not doubled up the other one I would say I think I pushed the point

Earlier when you’re doing the new builds around the pitches with the 4G and the fencing and that always try and max out and go for 2.7 hardstanding because otherwise you’re going to find that you you you do you you don’t have the maximum circulation route and the

Maximum amount of viewing areas that you would desire maybe a year or two down the line so they they would be my my big ones uh and the other one is to to to go back to if you’ve got problems go back to your people who who head up the

League and advise uh and ask ask the questions and they they can always email them through to us we do get that we can’t always attend grounds well we can’t attend many grounds because we’ got other responsib ities but quite often we can ask answer some of the

Technical questions and again if the answer comes back no then feel free to blame us because it’s easier for you guys thanks Andy and Mark I’ll bring you in quickly just before we wrap up as well because um it’s it’s been really fascinating to hear the the intricacies

The details and I think it really underlines the level of responsibility that is on the people joining us on this call but any final words of wisdom um advice from your from yourself well I was just going to say that there was another question and uh

That came from from one of the uh one of the leagues which was can Andy actually recommend any courses uh that people could go on or should go on but uh but to answer your question uh Charlotte I think you know this is all about you know lines of communication and it’s

About making sure that you um you do ask the questions and there’s lots of support out there you know we’re through the fa Club program uh the leagues and the and the um and the and the guys that are on here from the leagues Paul Kelly

Um and Jason um and as it just been mentioned by Andy you know there are some you know that that that if we ask the questions we can get the answers I think it’s more a case of how do we how do we open up lines of communication and

How do we how do we make sure that people within clubs and all the all the people in the clubs not just those on the call but how do we share this information and how do we make sure it’s accessible and I think going you know that that sort of turns this completely

Round Charlotte to to the uh the Digital support and the and the information that we have on the on the clubhouse and the fact that all of the clubs across the national league system have got access into the clubhouse and can access a lot of this documentation uh the webinars

And also the um uh you know the information and and and support that’s available um you know to to help them and assist them do you know do the roles and complete the roles that they have with in the club absolutely well look just building upon that point Andy I

Know you you mentioned a couple of courses in in numbers of your answers tonight but any final ones that you would recommend to those on the on the webinar yeah just keep keep an eye on the uh the sgsa website because we do the webinars as well on Safety

Management and and different things that come up are fairly topical um I think there’s the emergency planning college that offer courses on on on on crowds and that sort of stuff that you you can tap into um but again I think uh I I I don’t know of any specific courses um

But if you’re if you’re dealing with a fairly complex ground or or one that’s being uh redesigned if if you want to go out there and undertake some of the very basic fire risk assessment courses uh they’re really good uh because that’s all about contingency risk and and

Management and what you’re learning for fire you can translate into crowd and Incident Management as well uh that’s some good stuff um and then I think the other thing you can do is I would advise that every club would if you’ve got good relationships with your police uh that

You work with them and run the tabletop exercises as well then you you will learn a lot off yourself but I I would be I still think I I would be cheeky I don’t know many safety officers uh in in the efl for example that that wouldn’t

Love to um show and tell uh their match day operation and their their structures and systems and don’t don’t be shy because they’re they’re a big family and the people out there trying to manage safety at all levels the further down you go in in the tier system I think

Almost the more difficult it becomes because you you’re so restrained so yeah take advantage of those people have yourself a good day out and and and let them tell you a few stories and share some learning and and get all their documents off them that’s a very very good tip one

That I’ve made a note of and but Andy I think on behalf of Jason Kelly Paul Mark and I thank you so much for for sharing all of your knowledge your expertise and your Insight and I hope that everyone on the course found this a really useful exercise I know that some participants

Were struggling to begin with to get the whole of the webinar but safe to say this has been recorded and it will be circulated as well and I’m hoping it’s the kind of webinar that you dip back into when you need advice as well but as Mark says the lines of communication are

Open whether that be through the clubhouse the club program or through your leagues we’re here to help you as best as we possibly can and we hope that this has been a really helpful and productive start for you so our blow full time on tonight’s webinar but we

Will speak to you soon no doubt thank you so much for joining us until next time goodbye thank you