Question Time | 14th March 2024

Fiona Bruce presents an hour of topical debate from Liverpool. On the panel, from the government, Lee Rowley MP, minister in the Department for Levelling-Up, Housing and Communities; Jonathan Reynolds MP, who is Labour’s shadow Business and Trade Secretary; the Scottish National Party’s Westminster leader, Stephen Flynn MP; the broadcaster Ayesha Hazarika, who was an adviser to the Labour Party; and the commentator Melanie Phillips. Also live on iPlayer at 20:00.

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Paul right now the government’s attempt today to Define extremism comes during a war of words between labor and the conservatives over which party has a bigger problem with racism meanwhile a real war rages on in Gaza to discuss that and more we’re in Liverpool a city synonymous of course with the Beatles

But also dominated by labor at local and National level for as long as anyone can remember but our audience here is a broad reflection of the Electoral picture Across the Nation welcome to question Time on tonight’s panel from the government Lee roley is housing minister in the department of leveling up housing and communities he’s been MP for Northeast darisha since 2017 and was previously a deputy chairman of the conservatives from labor Jonathan Reynolds is a shadow secretary for business and trade he was elected in

2010 as MP for Staley bridge and Hyde in Greater Manchester Steven Flynn leads the Scottish national party’s 43 MPS at Westminster and has done so for nearly a year and a half the man from Dundee is MP for abedine South Aisha hasara hosts times radio’s weekend DriveTime shows

And a political podcast called the power test before that she was an advisor to then labor leader Ed millerand and she’s just been nominated for a Life peerage by the now labor leader k stama Melanie Phillips is a columnist journalist and author she’s worked for the guardian the

Sunday Times as spectator and Jewish Chronicle among others she’s also written nearly a dozen books over four decades and now has a column in the [Applause] Times good evening Welcome to our panelist welcome to audience here in Liverpool great to see you welcome to you at home you can catch up with the program in all sorts of ways on BBC sounds on the I player and of course there’s always a discussion going on on

Social media right let’s take our first question which is from Louise Orman will the community secretary announcement Michael Go’s announcement today revising the definition of extremism which we’ve been waiting for for a long time actually prevent extremism so as you say this was announced by Michael go today by your

Boss um an abbreviated version of it let me just share it with you um is defining extremism as the promotion of an ideology based on violence hatred or intolerance to undermine fundamental rights and the UK’s liberal parliamentary democracy will it actually prevent extremism Le well we hope so and that’s

Why we brought it Forward because we recognize that the the approach needs to change it needs to change post the 7th of October we’ve seen more extremism within the United Kingdom but also we always need to go back and look at policy again every so often to make sure

It works to make sure it’s appropriate for today it’s a very difficult area it’s one of the reasons why it’s creating so much debate but what my boss what Michael has said Michael go is that we need more Precision in terms of when we Define extremism and then we need

Greater Clarity from government about not engaging with those who are defined as extremists and it’s all part of a plan to try to make sure that we protect freedom of speech which is absolutely vital and then on the other side you’ve got criminality which absolutely people

Need to throw the book at but there’s a bit in the Middle where we need to make sure that those people who are trying to undermine fundamentally undermine rule of law democracy the values which we all live by and we built our country over several hundred years but those are

People who we need to call out and we have to say we’re not going to engage in government F so when you see that you need a more precise definition I was watching the the debate this afternoon and so you had Robert jenrick obiously former uh you know from the home office

Saying I fear the definition lands in no man’s land not going far enough to tackle the real extremist not doing enough to protect the non- extremists and watching the debate who who’s welcoming this from your side well it’s a I saw a lot of criticism I didn’t see many people

Saying this is a great idea it’s a it’s a challenging policy area there’s no doubt about that and that’s why it’s taken time to get here but what Michael is trying to do is he’s not going to run over there and not not not deal with it

He’s absolutely trying to deal with it what I saw actually today I thought the labor response was relatively constr constructive I thought most of the people sat on my benches on the conservative benches were trying to be constructive about it but this is the

First part of a series of a plan and so Michael has announced the broad outline today the broad approach and then we will come back in a number of weeks time to talk about the specific groups the Precision about who is and who isn’t extreme and also recognizing that we

Have to tread carefully here but we do have to do something about this because the rise of extremism is unacceptable do you welcome this Jonathan do you support it do you support this definition well it’s a really important issue and I welcome the question I can’t tell you yet whether

This will solve the problem whe this definition is the right one because you’ve got to see how it works in practice and I I do to be honest I worry that fundamentally this is about can this government bring people together can it build community cohesion to do

That I think a lot of people to be honest don’t really trust this government to be able to do that but you know whatever definition you have the question is what are you going to do to really tackle this cuz we’ve got a down on extremism you know the the

Government’s counter extremism strategy I think is 9 years out of date you know what are they going to actually do with this definition to do it how we T just to just just to be clear do you support the definition as outlined by Michael go

We’ll have to see what it what it does I mean I find it it’s a very broad definition to be honest I want to know how it will be used I want to know how we will tackle online radicalization which has become a huge problem I want

To know what will we do specifically around anti-semitism around islamophobia those require specific responses so I absolutely agree we agree that we’ve got to have some serious action on clumping down on extremism but can this government do it and can it be the case if it’s a definition that’s just come

From one politician to Define who who is the other side of that definition I I am honestly not sure but what we really want is some proper action that will deliver this and I think at the minute to be honest we cannot say at this stage whether this will do it okay Stephen

I’ll come to you in a minute I just saw loads of hands shoot up so if you I’m just going to go to the audience quickly um The woman there on in in the black yes hi um I think with that definition of extremism what would the Tory party

Say then about what Frank Hester said about Diane Abbott this week well we’d say it wouldn’t it wouldn’t be it wouldn’t be covered by that because the whole point of this of this issue putting it and I’m happy to talk about I’m very happy to talk about franker in

The moment extremis this is about organizations and if we conflate these two things which we can do it won’t but it won’t get us a great deal further in either debate this is about a long-term approach to try to ensure that those organizations who sit and stand in our

Country enabled through the very values which we all share but who are trying to undermine those values we have to say that’s not appropriate that needs calling out it needs and you you’ve made that point you say you shouldn’t conflate those two things I just point out that former Chancellor George

Osborne has done that today and he said it’s interesting I mean I’m just quoting in that the government uh won’t give money to extremist doesn’t want to fund extremists but it’s happy to take money from someone who appears to fall under that new definition of extremist well we’ve got a choice

As we’ve got a choice as a society we’ve said that what Frank Hester said was wrong and it was racist and here now the debate the question the thing in front of us right now is how we make sure over the long run when Frank Hester isn’t in

The news in 6 months time or 12 months time when something else has come up when the labor or the liberals or the SNP have got a problem like we’ve have this week you know ultimately we make sure we make sure that still we are stopping people misusing our values we

Shouldn’t be naive in this country if we believe in Liberal democracy we have to fight for it Stephen look the the good news is that this conservative government is coming to an end the the bad news is that they’ve not realized it yet so they’re going to spend they’re going

So they’re going to spend whatever time they have left seeking to divide deflect and distract from the chaos of the last 14 years austerity Public Services on their needs the damage of brexit a prime minister who lied a prime minister who crashed okay but even about the question

The question from Lou will it actually prevent extremism and this is an important point because we cannot allow ourselves to fall for that distraction we need to make sure that we do as the good people of Liverpool have done since 19 1983 and the people of Scotland have

Done since 1955 and reject the Tories at The Ballot Box and when it comes to extremism I think someone should provide Lee in the conservative party with a mirror because the only people who have threatened parliamentary democracy on these Isles are the people who closed shut down the Westminster Parliament

Illegally the people who seek to undermine the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Parliament at every turn and the people who accepted 10 million from someone who is racist and calls for one of my parliamentary colleagues to be shot that is extremism and Le needs to

Hold a mirror up to himself and his own party not a word Steven in any of that 2 minutes about how we actually solve extremism in this country not a single word just a load of partisan Well here here’s a suggest a suggest the immediate the immediate problem that we face with

Regards to challenges in society a party who paroled Parliament illegally a party who ignores a devolved settlement in Scotland and Wales and a party who accept money from a racist who called for an NP to be short you get rid of the conservative party that’s what you do how do you

Do sorry I’m not going to be I’m not going I’m not going to be I’m going to be failed to answer the question how you deal withed have not said deflective hang on hang on just one more second Louise’s question is about will this revised definition of extremism actually prevent

Extremism you still haven’t answered that question Stephen because no we hear what you say about conserv party and of course you’re entirely within your rights to make that point but in answering Louise’s question will this revised definition of extremism actually prevent it the important Point here is

That this is just a defle no but answer the question can you answer the question here I’ll give you one last chance no I don’t believe you answer fair enough in terms of what the government have done today but this is a deflection and we can’t escape from that

Melanie I don’t think definitions of extremism actually will do anything to counter extremism we already have a definition of extremism this is another one uh Michael Gove says this is a better one I don’t know whether it’s better or not it’s you know you need a microscope to see the difference I can

See there is a difference but I’m not persuaded the difference in language is going to make any difference on the ground it seems to me that the problem has not been about definitions of extreme M there are plenty of laws already on the statute book to enable

The police to take whatever action is needed to counter all kinds of extremists the problem is that the police very often will not use those powers and that is due to a variety of issues and questions depending on the circumstances but for example when it comes to Neo-Nazi extremists and Michael Gove announced

Two organiz ations which are going to be prescribed from government assessing them at the moment assessing them um those don’t need any definition of extremists we all know what neo- Nazis are but when you look at the shawcross report on the malfunctioning of the prevent program a program which the

Government set up some years ago to deal with extremism you find that what has happened there what’s gone wrong there is in the is in the uh the uh uh failure to correctly uh to to take action against the kind of people who POS the greatest threat and that’s due to

Variety of reasons in other words the problem is not with a definition the problem is with what’s going on what’s going wrong with the people who have been entrusted with the task of keeping us safe and as far as I can see this new definition is not going to address that

Problem okay man in the blue sweater yes uh so I just want to to remind you that he actually said when he looks at Dian habber oh this is franker you’re talking about yeah uh it makes him hate all black women and that she should be

Shot if that is not extremism I don’t know what it is and I’m sorry I’m thinking about I am also thinking about countless of like black women especially black girls who hear that on TV and that’s a m massive safeguarding issue I mean what this little girl would actually think

Like you know that she’s not accepted in the society that we live in I mean I was not shocked that that’s how sad it is like you know we’re getting used to that but I was angry and I hope that we prot Diana Bo at all cost and I hope she

Receive support from both party the conservative and the lab party as well thank you okay and yes there in the woman with the yes um instead of redefining extremism why don’t we make penalties worse for hate speech it seems like Frank CER nothing’s happened to him

And there seems to be a scandal like this every week and nothing happens to anybody who makes all these offensive comments okay and for yes in the black sweater yeah me um yeah I mean for years we as a teacher we’ve had the prevent strategy rammed

Down our throats every year we’ve had to repeat our prevent certificates and yet today suddenly suddenly all of that goes out of the window why we’ve been building up with prevent all this time is prevent not good enough anymore okaya well look we should take extremism

Seriously in our society Joe Cox the MP was murdered by a farri extremist David Amos was murdered by an islamist extremist I think we should be very worried about our young people getting radicalized I’m from a Muslim background no muslim mom or dad wants to see their

Daughter ending up like shamima beum no Christian mom or dad wants their teenage son to end up like Joe like a man called Joe mecla who’s a teenager he was sentenced to 10 years after being convicted of planning to attack a mosque and kill Muslims so we should take this

Seriously we should take it deadly seriously and do you to Louis’s question do you think this will what Michael go said today will actually prevent extremism and that kind of thing no because I think what the government is doing is cynically plain politics with this issue I think this idea of tackling

Extremism if you’re going to be serious about it you have to engage with people you have to understand what’s happening in these communities you have to work with people in the community and what I have been seen cynically over months I’m sure you’ve all seen it here is using

Extremism as a fig Leaf actually to promote a lot of anti-muslim and islamophobia in this country and I find it extraordinary that in the week that we have had these comments from this t t Duna where the conservative party took took a whole day to even Define what

Racism is they sent ministers out on the morning round saying this guy hadn’t been racist he had just been a bit rude he talked about shooting a black woman not any black woman as well our first ever elected black woman in British political history this is a party that

Couldn’t even Define that as racist how on Earth are they going to Define what extremism is I will come back K I’m just take a few more point so the conservative party talks about protecting freedom of speech all being well but there’s a big difference between freedom of speech and spreading

Misinformation total garbage total lies as the lady said there seems to be no repercussions or Consequences to these people who make such statements they’re not corrected the correct information is not put out there hence why a lot of by fascism in this country and extremism is

On the rise people are going to believe those facts that they think are fact and they spread through social media and have detrimental effects let me just ask in the interest of balance is there is there anyone here who welcomes what Michael Gove had to say and supports what he had to

Say it’s going well Le not not a hand up okay you had there were other people who had that you had your hand up there so let’s hear what you’ve got to say yes the woman with a black polar neck I think I would just go one step further

And say the there has been a decades long campaign um of inciting and exploiting islamophobia um to suppress descent a decades long campaign on behalf of who um I mean in terms of the conservatives the amount of suppression in terms of De democracy and and Free Speech anytime

There’s descent that doesn’t sort of that’s not got the approval of whiteall it feels as though everything’s being shoved down and the Islam phobia has always been kind of incited and exploited um as this sort of it it it always feels as though Muslims are kind of being targeted and and black people

As well as well I I just feel as though it’s not it’s it it feels as though there’s been a decades long campaign that hasn’t worked with prevent it feels as though it’s not functioned particularly well okay let me take one more Point yes this one here with Rishi sunak making transphobic

Comments in the presence of Brianna J’s mother and accepting donor money from someone who is I think we can all agree is incredibly racist will the government accept its complicit in a culture of racism and transphobia all right Lee listen let me come back you got a number of points

Here so uh you had you your teacher you saying and you’re saying well what’s you’ve been working with prevent rages does that just go out the window now um and perhaps you want to ask the other other points as well sure look there’s two things here um and the conservative

Party’s had a difficult week and the first thing is that the the people the the the person who we’re talking about Frank Hester the comments are wrong the comments were racist you have to you have to deal with the specifics this week it’s Frank Hester a few weeks ago

It was Angela rer about something else before that it was XYZ we Pol within politics within politics people say things which are incorrect the first thing they need to do is say that that was wrong and then more broadly as a society we have to decide what we want

To do with people who get things wrong and who say things wrong and the question is do we forgive or do we just ostracize and some people in this audience will say that’s it we’re done no more other people will say actually second chances my personal view I did

This all the way through over I’ve tried to do it all the way through my career in politics as an MP is try to give Second Chances not just on my side but on the other side as well I think we are better as a society as a Community if we

Do that where comments are wrong they should be called out but ultimately if we give people a second chance if we say actually you still have something to contribute in whatever way be it MPS or within the political process all I think we are better as a society for doing

That okay I just want to come back on that because it is a disgrace to lump other politicians like Angela Reena in with what that race has said hang on hang on hang on hang on hang on he didn’t just make a bad comment about people he said Diane

Abbott made him want to hate all black women and he wanted to shoot her okay that is not just I have been a bit rude and when you say he apologized he did not even recognize his abor disgusting frightening racism he said he had just

Been a bit rude he would not even accept that and if you are going to be preaching to the country about extreme ISM you have to put your money literally where your mouth is this guy is a disgusting racist he is bankrolling the conservative party will you give that money

Back as I as I have said all the way through this there are different MPS and there are different people in political life that make comments that are wrong when they are said they’re going to shoot somebody but when if they said they’re going to shoot somebody John

McDonald estimate vay you remember that John McDonald said something entirely inappropriate about estimate vay about 10 years ago so we can all find examples of really really inappropriate behavior of really really outrageous things that were said we should say that they’re wrong we should call out that they’re

Wrong but as a society we have a broader question as I say to answer about whether we accept when people are contrite that they still have things will you give them money back you were ask that well I’m not in charge but I don’t think we are giving them money

Back no because ultimately if we say that people have people ask for forgiveness if people say they were wrong we’ve said it’s wrong he said it’s wrong so basically 15 million pounds gives you a blank check for racism [Applause] and abs that that is that is absolutely not

Correct that is not correct and next time next time Aisha in the labor party somebody says something that is incorrect and somebody says something that is absolutely wrong and I hope and I will look forward to you absolutely cutting them out of public life forever

Full stop okay I’m just gonna say can I just say and I I I have to say this because Frank Kester is not here to defend himself as you say he has apologized for being rude yeah that’s the the comment he’s made he has also said separately and you may not agree

With this but he has also said separately that he Abes all forms of racism I I know listen this is this is my job he is not here to defend himself I’m just putting his his point of view um we could talk about this for quite some

Time okay let’s give another two or three minutes and before I move on the comments were clearly racist they were clearly abhorent they were clearly wrongly I don’t know why anyone would want to morally compromise themselves so much by defending it but for you do you

Not see what what this audience has said tonight you have lost the legitimacy to tackle a really serious issue which is extremism because these people and the people at home they will not listen when you operate that double standard as a government and you didn’t come out as a

Government and say it was wrong first of all you said it was rude then you said it was racist then you said it was racist but the money wasn’t racist and then you were saying that the that you take more of the money and now we find

Out you have of course it’s wrong and the Prime Minister knows it’s wrong but the fact is he’s too weak if you can’t govern you’ve got to call an people can do you said it’s wrong I’m saying it’s wrong here tonight I mean it’s clear there are there’s there’s a

Forest of handouts I’m just going to take a few more points before I move on go shall I start the woman here in the black with the glasses yeah um yeah I just wanted to say that you know you said that it’s about giving people a second chance and basically saying

Forgiveness to be quite Frank it’s not your place to say um that you know he deserves a second chance it’s not my place but it’s definitely not your place or any conservative party member or any party member who’s saying we’ll give him a second chance no until Diane Abbott

Says I feel like this has been genuinely addressed then I literally don’t really care about what anyone says about we don’t but right right towards the about we haven’t heard anyone from the very back the man you I think youve got a pink shirt of no further back yes um it’s as

Abhorent as what Frank haser said uh about Dyan Abbott it it’s part of a pattern of people connected to the conservative party because there were the comments by um soel ra many many comments by soel braan actually um and then what happened with Liz truss and Steve B um Robert genrich and others

So if that we’re getting this from the government about um counter extremism but the government has so many so many of its own problems with its own senior figures and just a little bit further along with uh yes you’ve also got glasses on yeah yes so when you say

Second chances like how far is too far when you talk about second chances like how much money do you keep taking from these people who are horrible but like they can’t even say if they’re apologizing or not for the right thing they’re sort of cut in this sort of trap

Like how far is too far what’s the limit of of unacceptability gu what you’re saying and just let’s see if there’s a man next to you as well you got your hand up I’m just wondering if the check would come out tomorrow or the helicopter keys or the T say

No might as well answer that before I move on would you take more money I mean we had the uh Kevin Holland last night yes I’ve already talked about that but the the fundamental point is and I understand and I as I say it is wrong

And it was racist and the question is when these things happen whether today in my party tomorrow in another to the day after in my party again we all want it not to happen but when it does what do we do as a society what do we do as a

Community and we you know I I absolutely accept the point that is being made by a number of people in the audence but the question is what do we do about it long term and do we say the Second Chances work than Your solution was provided to

You by very eloquently by an audience member who said we should listen to what Diane Abbott has to say in this regard and I don’t know if anyone else sitting in this room right now was Furious on Wednesday at the fact that the Westminster establishment stopped Diane

Abbott from being able to question the Prime Minister on you mean the speaker of the house when you say the West can I just make one other very briefly I want to move on the heart of all of this with all the politicking going on is a woman and that woman is

Diane Abbott and I think what we forget is she is a human being like the rest of us this woman was our first ever black elected woman into parliament in that time she has been abused humiliated mocked and now she’s been threatened with death and I do think what does it

Say about our society that almost 40 years on after the first ever black woman was elected that we are in this cess pole of racism I spoke to Diane um this week and what that woman has had to to go through so in the middle of all of

This yes there’s lots of accusations but there is a human being at the heart of all of this and her name is Diane Abott Okay I am going to move on uh lots of you want to talk about this next question so I want to take it just before I do I want to say that we have got one more show before the Easter break so that’s next week we we are in

Middlesboro then after the Easter break uh we return on the 18th of April in buckton so if you are in or around Middlesboro or buckton you’d like to come be part of the show be part of the audience follow the instructions on The Question Time website and hopefully

We’ll see you at one of those two programs right let’s take another question now from James Pritchard with 12,300 children dead in Gaza will the government or opposition put any meaningful pressure on Israel to end the slaughter John the situation in Gaza is unconscionable and everybody wants to

See a breakthrough everybody wants to see a ceasefire and clearly the the need to get Aid into Gaza at scale to deal with that humanitarian situation is palpable and obvious to see it is a huge frustration for everyone I think watching those scenes to to wonder how can we meaningfully have a breakthrough

That will deliver that a ceasefire has got to be both sides it’s got to that’s what a ceasefire is both sides being willing to do that and that is a challenge with the leaders I think on both sides of that I know I was on this program if you remember in October in

Bradford where it had just begun if you told me at this stage we’d still be talking about the lack of a breakthrough even I I wouldn’t have believed it could be such a stalemate but I do believe the circumstances now especially with um I don’t think Hamas will be part of the

Future of Gaza and therefore I think there is not just the potential for a ceasefire but the potential for a long-term meaningful peace process and that is what’s required we can’t have this cycle of violence just coming back on an annual or or a monthly basis we need a long-term breakthrough to a

Two-state solution I think Bleak as things are there is the potential for that and sometimes in situations like this around the world things get so horrendous that they provide the means that we can never go back to and the will is created to move forward and I

Think that is possible though I have to say I feel very depressed and very ated when I see it and I look at the the amount of time and the the human toll of what we have seen and and it is absolutely unable St the events on

October the the 7th have rightly been condemned by all political parties they were utterly abhorrent and the hostages who still remain in control uh who are still under the control of Hamas must be released but my colleagues and I have been consistent since the weeks following that we need to have an

Immediate ceasefire and the reason for that is simple is that the people of Palestine are being collectively punished for the actions of a terrorist group they are being denied access to water to food to medicine to electricity to the ability to leave and meantime they are being indiscriminately shot and

Bombed 70,000 men women and children injured 30,000 men women and children dead and I have been utterly ashamed shamed to be a member of the Westminster Parliament as it has sat for months in silence instead of calling for that immediate ceasefire and two things need to happen now we finally dragged the

Labor party to a position where it backs a ceasefire and hopefully we can get the government to do likewise but meantime we need to end arum sales to Israel and we need to use our voice the UK’s voice as a permanent member of the un Security Council to Advocate immediately for a

Ceasefire no ifs no butts and let me just ask you Stephen when you say no if no no ifs no buts and you’ve been completely clear with the at the S&P that you want an immediate C far and as you say you’ve called for that consistently how do you get the hostages

Released no nothing nothing would please me more than to see the hostages if it is not condition upon that that you’re calling for is it no no because there I’m sorry but there is no justification for bombing targeting and collectively punishing a civilian population for the actions of a terrorist group okay and

What needs to happen is there needs to be an end fighting there needs to be an immediate discussion we need to see the UK and the US show some backbone stand up to Benjamin Netanyahu and get this sorted so have the Seas as you say and then hope that somehow the

Use the voice that we have collectively across the world to advocate for making sure those hostages are released absolutely Melanie I live mainly in Israel I come here a great deal I am British I will always be British and it is a tragedy beyond measure that so many decent people

Well-meaning people in Britain have got this completely the wrong way around what’s happening in Gaza is indeed a tragedy war is terrible civilians are killed but what Steven has just said is so distorted and so untrue let me just take you through one or two points that he has said that’s

Good he says that the gazans are being denied by Israel access to food and humanitarian supplies yes this is completely untrue there have been hundreds and hundreds of trucks going through Gaza there have been hundreds of trucks stopped by going from going through Gaza because the food is being

Stolen by Hamas the garans themselves are saying this you laugh because you don’t know I am telling you hang hang on Melanie In fairness the the UN says that not enough trucks are being allowed in and and that that children are dying of Salvation you’ve got UNICEF saying

Children are dying of Salvation the UN has had its own operatives in Ana the relief and Welfare organization who are members of Hamas dozens and dozens of them they are entirely compromised okay so just I’ll let you speak I promise but just to be clear what you’re saying when

Youve Got The Who and the UN and the EU humanitarian Chief saying there is famine in Gaza you’re saying that’s not true you can go on you can go on YouTube and see pictures of the stocked food markets in Gaza why are you laughing have you SE

You seen the pict I have looked at some of them they don’t have time stamps on them I’ve got to point that out so I don’t know when these pictures were taken okay I mean if you have proof that they were taken in the last oob if you

Want to look at pictures Melanie I’m quite happy to send you some pictures of videos of civilians being bomed and slaughtered at I’ll show you some okay if you if you want to talk about Slaughter Steven you accuse Israel of indulging in Collective punishment you talk about October the 7th and how

Abhorent that was these are crocodile tears by you your hypocrisy is EP Hamas let me finish let her finish and then I’ll let you come let me finish that was merely the start Hamas and Hezbollah have said they intend to kill every Jew and W Wipe Out the state of Israel if

You had your way and there was a ceasefire now there would be more prgrams and more Slaughters of Israelis the Israelis do not want to kill Palestinians in Gaza it’s the last thing they want Hamas have made the gazans into not just human Shields but cannon fodder Hamas shoot gazans when they try

To find safe areas Hamas are in Tunnels for their own safety not one shelter has been built by Hamas in all the time they have ruled Gaza for the Palestinians under bombardment the only reason that Israel is having to bombard Gaza is because they cannot get at the infrastructure of mass Terror and

Genocide which has been put underground Collective punishment this is how this man talks about the defense against genocide Collective punishment is how he describes the desperate attempt by Israel to prevent a genocide from happening and a second Holocaust from happening I don’t think people here understand what do you think that Hamas

Mean when they say we wish to kill every Jew what do you think they did when they slaughtered when they slaughtered 1,00 Israelis and took others hostage with a terrible fate we don’t yet know and not only that they say they will do it again

And again and they mean it why do you sneer at this why do you dismiss it why do you call the defense against mass murder Collective punishment would you have called it Collective punishment when the Allies bombed Germany you would have said it was a defense against

Fascism and Nazism Israel is trying to prevent a second Holocaust that is not an exaggeration that is what is threatened you don’t understand I’m afraid well-meaning people here have no idea what it’s like to be in Israel not only is it’s a very small country there is virtually not a single household that

Is not personally touched by this either they’ve had family or friends murdered on October 7 they are being taken hostage their boys and girls their grandchildren children are on the front line and they are dying every day there are Rockets hundreds of rockets every day coming from the north from the

Hezbollah okay Melanie melie you’re making your parents very powerful I’m just going to because you’ve made some accusations against St I want to let him answer you know what those weren’t accusations those were outrageous disgusting slurs and I actually feel quite sorry we heard what you said however

However at the at the at the invitation um of a member of the Israeli Embassy in London I sat in a room alongside some of the families of the victims of October the 7th and watched the raw footage of what happened and I don’t think I

Slipped for the best part of a week but I have the ability and the personality to be able to differentiate between the horrors that occurred and the response by Benjamin Netanyahu the unjustified and unconscionable response of the Israeli government and I hope I genuinely hope With all sincerity that

One day you can too all right I’m going to I’m going I’m going to let some people come in from the audence it’s the man here in the very front I’ve put a question in earlier when the emails came in and what I was asking is does the normal Palestinian citizen have

Any input into ridding the country of its ruling Hamas party such that if to have a two-state solution it will never happen while they fear hamus is still there you need the country to be run by uh the actual Palestinian citizens and that’s stop and get rid of the hammer

People so there no need to bomb I mean it’s not the easiest thing I would say for someone palestin stand uping okay let’s let’s take a few more points is The Man in the Yellow t-shirt yeah yeah there’s just one thing that I was always trying to pass on to

Everybody what I would say to you on the panel is we place one thing in this whole situation and that is change Israel for any other Nation on the planet and see if you would have sat back as long with what Israel have done would you have done the same with any other

Nation or would you have stepped an alien gun no that’s over the line they’ve gone too far you need to stop okay and the man at the very towards the back there yes you got your hand up we’ll just get a microphone to you yep that’s you sir yeah um you’re talking

About what’s happening in Israel and the question get keeps getting put back to the main two parties how can you justify asking Israel to do something when you’re not asking Hamas to do something the answer to that’s very simple Israel is an ally democratically elected government Israel is that Hamas is a terrorist

Organization we should hold Israel to a higher standards what is happening is wrong we need that to say that we need leadership to say that we should use our voice on the UN Security Council to say that that’s the simple answer we should hold Israel to a higher standard to

Hamas what Hamas have done is wrong it’s terrible but doing nothing we’re becoming a complicit in that we need to say to our friends you should be doing better and they should be doing better area well look I mean everybody watching and everybody in this room is just absolutely hor horrified by

What we’re seeing and you can hold two thoughts in your head at the same time you can feel the understandable pain and anguish and fear of the Jewish Community because of what happened on the 7th of October that orgy of violence and evil and you can also feel pain and horror

When you look at what is happening in Gaza the death toll and the injury so most people can hold both of those things in their head most people want peace of course they do but let’s not kid ourselves it’s not that easy and if we’re absolutely honest a ceasefire has

Never felt more remote because essentially you’ve got two sides that don’t want a ceasefire Hamas as Melanie has rightly alluded to don’t want a ceasefire and they have said that they would not stop attacking uh Israel but on the other side you’ve got Netanyahu and one of the most extreme right-wing

Governments in modern history in Israel and there’s lots of protests against him as well neither side want a solution or a compromise to your point at the front uh the gentleman the pink shirt you talked about the Palestinians needing new leadership I agree I think the israelies also need new leadership if we

Want to try and get some resolution in the meantime we have got to get Aid in to Gaza the idea that we’re now shipping um Aiden and we’re building building this port which could take up to 60 days we need to get Aid by truck by Road into

Gaza and everybody in the Diplomatic Community is trying to be very sensitive to all the understandable concerns that people have but pressure has got to be put now to get this aeden parachuting it in is a nonsense shipping it in is just logistically so so difficult the way to

Get it I mean the ceasefire is going to take a long time there’s no simple slogans or solutions to this we’ve got to stop this famine they are on a brink of a famine and the International Community has got to get together and we’ve got to get Aiden into Gaza okay

Lee let’s come back to James’s question will the government and the opposition but you’ve answer jonan will the government put any meaningful pressure on Israel to end the slaughter now we heard that most senior Democrat in the in the states uh today Chuck schuma saying netanyahu’s got to go for example

David Cameron has been increasingly critical will the government put any meaningful pressure to end the slaughter well there’s a huge amount of work going on in the background as there often is in these kind of foreign policy issues to try to move it forward but it is hugely difficult and it’s hugely

Difficult for one reason this could stop right now it could stop this second without a single additional drop of blood being spilled and the way that happens is for Hamas to lay down their weapons it is for the Hamas to say that they will not try to repeat October the

7th where 1,200 civilians were murdered raped beheaded and burnt alive it is for Hamas to release 200 people the two the element of that 200 people who are sadly left who they dragged back into Gaza and are now using as human Shields and it is for Hamas to say that they will no

Longer to say that they will do this time and time and time and time again and the other thing Hamas could do is remove from its Charter its founding principles the way in which it has worked for the past 30 years virulently anti-semitic statements which wants to

Wipe Israel off the map so I want to ceasefire tomorrow I want all of this all of this horrible everything you say is of course true but there’s no chance of that happening with him agree that how do we get blame herass let’s let’s have let’s have let’s have 80% of

This discussion about Hamas about a viant anti-semitic murderous group of people that started this perpetuate this and have it within their power to stop it tomorrow and are choosing not to do so okay I just want to take a couple more points the man in the check shirt

Sort of in the middle didn’t Hamas actually offer that on Benjamin n who denied her he offered them to release the hostages in turn for a ceasefire and he denied her so what did I tell you but but what they haven’t done is said that

They won’t try to do it again and again and again they stated that explicitly if Hamas stopped all of this I absolutely agree cease fire immediately but her masks are refusing to do so the woman here in the cream sweater hang on just get the mic I lived in London in the

Early 90s and I remember the IRA by the way I am a proud Jew and I remember back then when we had to avoid bombings and watch out where we were I remember my friends here saying we do not negotiate with murderers we don’t negotiate with

Terrorists of course in the end we did sorry you know in the end we did the government did do you think sorry Mak a point do you think Kamas is like the IRA do you think Hamas would sit down with this I’d be ready I

Believe you I think that if the you know go if if Hamas said it was over then so much would change and I don’t think this is the Palestinian people Hamas is not the Palestinian people let’s make that very separate don’t forget that people from Palestine

Came over to Israel they would come over to work I mean some of the hostages are people who worked with Arabs with people in Gaza with Palestinians don’t forget that don’t forget in Israel we have Arabs and Israelis Jews and Arabs working together living together trying

To make life good let’s look and see what’s happening there with Israel let’s not forget what was going on with Hamas the Palestinians brought them you know they they elected them and then what happened with all that money look at all those great tunnels right we know this

We Jews know this Jews know this and that’s what’s so exhausting okay thank you for your point I’m going to take another question um we’ve got about 10 minutes left and I want to try and fit it in and I know we will return sadly to talking about Gaza

As you say when you were on in Bradford thought we’d be talking about it this many months on um Allison litherland yes if a judge having heard all the circumstances all the facts of a case gives a substantial sentence of up to four years how is Justice served by

Releasing that person early on a whim so the Justice secretary Alex chalk announced this week that prisoners could be released from jail 2 months early that was on top of having already done that an early decision to release prison 18 days early he’s now extended it to

Two months basically the prisons are too full um stepen actually they’re too full in Scotland as well aren’t they it’s not just a problem down in England well well indeed and much of this has been a consequence of a lack of investment in public services of which our judicial

System is very much the heart of and you know that stems I mean prisons are devolved in Scotland so you could build more prisons if you want prisons are devolved in Scotland the justice system in Scot Scotland is devolved and it’s separate um what is not devolved and

Separate is of course the Chancellor’s budget which he makes and that obviously impacts upon the money that’s available in Scotland and there’s been obviously a 10% reduction in the capital budget Capital Grant to the Scottish government in order to build uh these new things so the fact that Scotland’s I mean you

You’ve got an overcrowding problem in Scotland we’ll come to England as well of course but you’ve got an overcrowding problem in Scotland Scotland has more inmates per 100,000 of population than England or Wales or even than the European average now that’s not down to the Westminster government is it well

Well no it’s down to obviously people committing crimes and going to to jail um I I know from listening very closely to Scotland’s Justice secretary that there’s a real desire and determination in order to ensure that we can have proper Rehabilitation so that we don’t have this endless cycle which exists

Particularly amongst those people who live in poverty may I add who go into a lifestyle and that lifestyle is perpetuated throughout their entire existence on on our planet and we need to be in a position where we can change that and do good by these people I’m not

Entirely AR breast of situation in England you’ll have to forgive me um well England’s do England’s doing what Scotland’s already doing which is releasing offenders early and Allison’s question is is Justice served by releasing offenders early Justice is served by making sure that someone doesn’t commit a crime again uh and

Breaking the link between reoffending which quite clearly exists and obviously if the prison system is under pressure that’s as a result of the financial decisions that have been taken by the treasury over very many years through austerity to cut back on investment in public services but we need to re we

Need to reappraise and refocus how we look at our justice system we shouldn’t just send everyone to jail on a whim people should only be going to jail for the most serious of crimes and people who can be rehab rehabilitated must be rehabilitated it benefits us all AA well

Look this is just another symptom of I’m afraid what is now known as as broken Britain we have a real problem with Law and Order in this country we’ve had police Cuts so it’s a miracle if anyone even turns up if you report a crime there are big backlogs in

Our court system Justice delayed as Justice denied for a lot of the victims there are now not enough prison places to put all these people in prison many serious crimes like rape have practically become decriminalized people are going into shops and just filling their boots and the police won’t turn up

Antisocial behavior is off the chart so we have got a real problem with Law and Order in this country and the conservatives used to be the party of Law and Order and I just wish instead of like whipping up hatred against minorities or othering other communities I want to see politicians and ministers

Get on with the jaw get tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime so I we have not got long so I’m going to ask you to be reasonbly brief because I do want to try and bring the audience in as well Lee well we talk about what the

Problem is the problem is a hangover from covid there was a lot of but there is and some sometimes politicians have to be clear you know you can you can laugh or scoff but the reality is that during covid when you take out a substantial proportion of your of your

Capacity in your courts for a while there’s a backlog that built up and so a backlog of people have built up within the system including within jail we were building 20,000 new places but when the spike happened after Co we’ve got to work through that and we’re trying to

Work through it and that’s happening but it’s going to take time and what politicians need to do is to say we’ve got a problem let’s work through it let’s put a plan in place to do that which is what is happening but just on Prison places the 2019 Manifesto

Promised to add 10,000 more prison places then you had another go in 2021 promising 20,000 more places by the mid 2020s but by last July it was only just about 5 and a half thousand way short it’s increased I mean it takes a long time to build a prison I’ve been

Involved from you promised 20,000 by the mid 2020 and we’re doing that and we’re moving and we’re moving it Forward we’re making sure that more prison Places come on but whilst we’ve got a challenge of trying to work through this backlog we have an issue and and what we have to do

When we say we’ve got an issue whether it’s in this part of public service or another part is have a plan which is what we’re doing building 20,000 places and making sure that we Implement that plan rather than going back to square one re me briefly Melanie um the lady

Says it’s a joke I entirely agree the system is simply not fit for purpose I think Aisha is absolutely correct the system from top to to bottom uh is uh is is is is juddering to a halt I don’t I cofit is a new one I have to say

Um that’s as may be my impression is that this this crisis is being caused also by much longer sentences more serious crimes but you know I’ve been i’ I’ve been reporting on prisons and the justice system a very long time and it’s always seemed to me that you know there

Are no votes in prisons and the prison system has has been neglected for decades by Government after government prisons you know they don’t work because nobody cares about them they should be made to work they should be in my view they should be completely revolutionized made part of the community they have a

Joined up thinking uh none of that is happening they have been you know they’ they’ve been locking the key and locking people up and throwing away the key and in fact locking people up you know many many too many to a cell and everybody forgets about it and um you know

Unfortunately there is no public pressure because uh people don’t people prefer not think about it Jonathan Alon it’s not Justice it’s not right and also wasn’t right to try and hide this announcement and not tell people straight up this is what the government was doing the truth is Alon that there’s

No Public Service working better today than when the conservative party came to power in 2010 but what is unusual about this this is actually an area where the government allocated some money they put 4 billion pounds into this and you know what they haven’t spent it they’ve got

About a quarter of that spent and why haven’t they spent it because they’re distracted because instead they’ve got to deal with their racist donors or Tor MP’s defecting to reform or this you know 4 I’m going end up say the money you have a government that is a complete

Soap opera day in day out it is not focusing on the things that matter so it’s your plan to build moreon if if you put4 billion P into build new prison places build the prison places I don’t think that’s particularly complicated well you haven’t though but you haven’t

Because you’ve got no focus and the truth is put the parliament channel on any day look how early the legisl agenda finishes for this government every day look at what we will not get a proper focus on the things that matter in this country till we get what we want what we

Need what you all want and that is a general election and the chance to set the direction properly for the next four you let me hear from Allison again yes so what do you think of what you’ve heard what worries me is there aren’t enough probation officers or people to do the

Rehabilitation when people are released when they get to their automatic release date and we’re releasing of people early they’re just going to be free to do whatever they want with no Rehabilitation no probation involvement no support they’re just going to be allowed to walk out okay I’ve got a

Minute left let me just hear a couple more points the woman at the very back with the glasses um yeah so for me um Justice is about um Prosecuting the correct CL uh crimes um for me the fact that we’re still trying to um uh prosecute women for example for having

An abortion that doesn’t feel right to me and um I I know that we don’t have the capacity in prisons but surely it’s about um that you know as as mentioned the links to um petty crime in the rehabilitation if someone doesn’t have safe and secure housing if they’re

Struggling for food if they’re struggling for work they’re more likely to commit crime and be in that situation if the rehabilitation is in place then we don’t need these prison places in the first place okay thank you thank you for your point right we are out of time so

Forgive me to those who had your hands up you in particular had your hands off for ages I’m sorry I didn’t get to you thank you very much for putting all your points and taking part in the discussion thank you of course to the panel for coming on this evening um remember we

Have one more show before Easter that’s in buckton so do um in middlesbor sorry so do come along to that and I just want to say for these lovely pictures of Liverpool I’d like to thank Nick Fletcher Patrick Allen and Jack puges thank you for these it’s very nice for

Me to be back here since I was originally a we girl even though I don’t sound like it so I know my goodness who’d have thought anyway from Liverpool from all of us here until next week bye-bye [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] From New York and London two best friends