A talk followed by a wide ranging Q&A session on the common threads linking Hillsborough, Grenfell, Windrush and the Post Office scandals. I set out how ‘othering’ and the ongoing gaslighting of working people, both by the state and corporations – aided by compliant politicians, unequal access to the law and a hostile media, has resulted in a culture where similar disasters and scandals are likely to be repeated. I also set out how despite the multiple daunting domestic and global issues facing us, one person’s voice can make a difference.
As I say in the video, when we become obsessed with the process of politics, it can be easy to forget the profound human impact political choices have. In these polarised times, it is time for more empathy and compassion in our politics.
Many thanks to Lewes Open Meetings for hosting this online event that took place on 28th February 2024. A link to their site here: https://leweslabouropenmeetings.wordpress.com/
A number of themes in the talk are drawn from the following blog: https://julianvaughan.blog/2024/01/13/from-hillsborough-to-the-post-office-scandal/
Follow me on Twitter/X at: @julian_vaughan_
on Facebook at: @jpvaughan66
or read my blogs at: www.julianvaughan.blog
I’d like to extend a very warm welcome to Julian Vaughn who has come to talk to us about corporate gas lighting Julian was raised in the northeast of England and was a teenager in the time of the 1984 85 Miner strike so very very good
That we’ve got got you at this time of year he has been a train driver for 20 years and a union rep for the last 15 years and also campaigns for an accessible rail network he stood as labor candidate in Bedford share in the 2017 and 2019 elections welcome Julian over to you
Thank you very much and and hopefully I won’t get my I never quite I’ve done quite a lot of public speaking but I can never quite get over the nerves and I remember being at a husting in the 2017 general election and I called homes fit for human habitation
Homes fit for human consumption and I wondered why all the audience there’s about 100 people there why they were laughing and then someone kindly explained it to me so if I get my words mixed up it won’t it won’t be the first time so no thanks right thanks right
Much um uh for that introduction so I I’m not haven’t got all the answers I’ve got some ideas about what I’m going to talk about but I’d love to get some ideas uh and answers uh from you as well but of course I’ll be open to any
Questions um at the end if you if you have any so what I want to do today uh and I’ll I’ll be as brief as possible uh but it should be about 15 20 minutes um is to talk about the the the common threads and the cause the causes of the
Various scandals and and disasters you know running from Hillsboro to grenfell to wind rush to the most recent uh post office Scandal Horizon Scandal that you’ll know about um and we’ve we’ve titled it corporate gaslighting but actually it’s far worse than that it’s actual State gaslighting it’s it’s it’s just
Oppressive nature of the state and how it treats ordinary working people so I’m going to go through the various aspects of that so starting off with Hillsboro so what actually links a football match in Hillsboro in Sheffield in 1989 to wind the wind Rush Scandal to a
Fire in a block of flats in West London and now to the recent Horizon Scandal although actually it’s been going on for a number of years at first glance they probably couldn’t seem less related if you tried to put them together but I hope to set out how they are
Related and as’s a group of scandals and and disasters for want of a better word they’re a symptom of the profound imbalance of power between the state and the people and as I’ve said I’ve got ideas about why this is happening and I I hope you’ll agree that there are common
Threads but I certainly don’t have the answers and I look forward to talking about that at the end but I want to say at the very start at the and it’s e this is easily forgotten but at the heart of all these tragedies are the victims and it’s not just just the 97
That died at hillsbor and died in the other disasters and have been treated so badly by the government but it’s the ripple effect that goes through all these communities the communities of of Liverpool and wherever these disasters happened and sometimes I think when we talk about politics we talk about ideas
And Concepts and ideologies and sometimes we actually forget the reality of the impact of Politics on people’s lives so I want to set that out very early so what was hillsbor it was a tragedy but it was no accident it wasn’t an unforeseen event there were Clues to what was going
To happen at Hillsboro there are many warning signs both at hillsbor in previous years and at other football matches anyone who went to a football match in the 1980s and I’m glad I did then and I still go to football now as we were talking about earlier will recognize the Casual at
Best I’d say the Casual indifference to the fans at that time but at worst open hostility and contempt now this other ring that was present at that time created almost the I believe the dehumanization of football fans as a collective and this dehumanization is repeated in the other
Disasters that I’m going to talk about shortly how else can we explain the inaction of the police walking along the bottom of the leppings Lane Terrace looking into those pens at Hillsboro where people were dying and taking no action whatsoever now the police were not only incompetent but this culture resulted
Obviously in the tragedy of Hillsboro and the safety of the fans being disregarded but the Common Thread between Hillsboro in issues like the Windra Scandal and grenfell and the post office Scandal is what these victims suffered the actual disaster on the day or what happened to their jobs Etc but
They also suffered and continue to suffer to this day a double Injustice because they were blamed the hillsbor in case of the Hillsboro fans they were blamed for their own deaths and their friends on The Terraces were blamed for the deaths of their friends this is the first example of
Gaslighting by the state it’s definitely not the last now there’s never one issue that causes a disaster and in the case of Hillsboro there were multiple issues the first was the LIE now I don’t read the sun I’ve never read the Sun for for many many years but
I’m sure you’ll be familiar with the lies that were pedal in the sun and the lies that were pedal by duckenfield who was the uh police officer in charge of uh safety of the match now those lies spread around the world and I still speak to people today that
Believe the sun’s version of events and duckham Field’s version of events and it shames me to say that politicians of both sides believe them as well and I’ll give some examples in a moment just going into hillsb and it’s this is when I first I’ve I’ve written a
Number of blogs on on on um Horizon and hillsb but going through the uh the evidence how alcohol readings could be taken from the dead this includes children as young as 14 to attempt to blame the fans because to believing they were drunk and that they caused the
Crush and some of you may remember B Bernard inham uh Thatcher’s press secretary who years after the disaster talked about a tanked up mob breaking down the gates it was lies but many people believed it then we had the cover up the cover up runs through all these uh scandals the
Changing of the police statements to remove any criticisms of the actions of the police and the closing of ranks and the prioritization of reput protection that we see today in the Horizon Post Office Scandal it’s still ongoing and the post office Scandal is getting worse by the day the only thing
The The only positive from this is that normally issues like this stay in the new cycle for a few days but I’m pleased to say that it’s staying in the new cycle for for weeks and weeks now so I do think we’ll eventually get compensation that’s a struggle at the
Moment and I’m hoping that we will actually get Justice though Justice is very difficult True Justice is very difficult to achieve but going on and this applies again to many of the scandals the lack of political support politicians passively accepting what they are told by agents of the
State as if it’s true without any questioning and this happened in Hillsborough and it also happened with a post office Scandal uh some of you may remember Ed Davy um who defended himself because he said I accepted what the post office Executives told me a politician should not accept at
Face value exactly what he he’s told it’s it’s unacceptable back in October 2011 so we’re talking 22 years after Hillsboro David Cameron was widely reported to have said in relation to the hill hillsbor familyes Quest For Justice it was like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that
Isn’t there now this is when I’m talking about State gaslighting how must how must the families have felt when going through all those years of of pain from losing their family members to have the prime minister of the UK basically saying I don’t believe you you’re talking rubbish I can’t imagine how that
Would would feel but it must be pretty grim and then we move on to sorry I’m gonna have to quote Cameron and now Boris Johnson I know it’s terrible Boris Johnson in a 2004 spectator article about hillsbor but that is no excuse for Liverpool’s failure to acknowledge even to this day the part
Played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon the police became a convenient scapegoat and the Sun newspaper a Whipping Boy for daring albeit in a tasteless fashion to hint at
The Wider causes of the incident so we go back to this lie and the lies that are said at the start of these issues just become repeated and be just become accepted fact and then we have the police the lack of police accountability how they can take early retirement
Changing the statements the ongoing lies and we have the Cozy relationship between the police and the print media which has been the C well the cause a factor in many of the scandals over the last few years and we talk about the Daniel Morgan M murder and others there
There’s there’s too many to talk about this evening unforgivably the defense of their actions and their attempt to blame the fans continued all the way up to the second in second inquest which found the Liverpool fans were unlawfully killed their their approach and I’m not I’m definitely not anti- police I’m
Friends are in the peace fors but their actual way the way they act as a collective is is is Dreadful I’m trying to think of a better word for it apologize now the tragedy of hillsbor was born out of all grief which many of I’m sure most of you know well as an
Incident that happened during the minor strike and I believe emboldened the South Yorkshire police to act with the impunity that they did at Hillsboro and Hillsboro remains an open wound and an example of the failure of our legal and political system now it took 27 years for the
Families of hillsb to achieve some sort of Justice their families their victims were exonerated they never actually received proper Justice the greatest fine given out was 6 and a half th000 pounds to the safety director of of the club no one else that the police no one
Else in charge was was was found guilty of any crime how long we will We Wait For Justice for grenfell it’s six years so far coming up to seven years all the post office Horizon victims they’ll get their compensation I’m fairly confident of that but will they actually get
Justice or will the it just be passed around and no one be found to blame moving on to wind rush now we can’t escape the fact that many of the injustices I talk about today have been inflicted either on people of color or on the working class
Now in the case of Windrush a in the case of um grenfell 80 85% of the victims were from minority groups and the wind Rush Scandal which relates to individuals who migrated to the UK from the Commonwealth between 1948 and 1973 is yet another example of the other ring this de Dehumanization of a section of our society where their lives were deemed to be worth less than anyone else’s and the Wendy Williams review that took place after the Scandal broke concluded that the home office had shown ignorance and thought lessness and what had happened much like hillsbor was foreseeable and
Avoidable now there are many similarities with the post office Scandal the delays to the compensation which is still ongoing in the case of the windr Scandal and the home office dealing with the aftermath of their policies it’s the same with the post office now both are marking their own homework further
The that a dog coming in further the slowness of access to justice has resulted in many victims dying before receiving redress at best it’s a casual indifference at worst let’s call it for what it is it’s institutional racism so what we end up with is people most in need of protection from the
State those people that don’t have the same protections or access to the law that are available to the rest of us are the ones that are denied that protection as Andy Burnham put it from Peter 200 years ago to grenfell today ordinary bereaved families continue to
Be treated in a cruel and dismissive Way by a justice system which favors the powerful and connected it’s a pattern that keeps on repeating itself and it’s time to break it and I don’t think any of us would argue with that moving on to grenfell like hillsbor grenfell was no
Accident it was for told in previous fires such as the lacken hall file in suic in 2009 the Harrow Court fire in stevenage in 2005 and the nosy Heights Fire in Liverpool in 1991 and others however these fires happened while health and safety regulations were
Being seen and I’m ashamed to say by all political parties as a burden to business and the same time as this we had a drive to cutting red tape and a onein two out principle of safety regulation and yet again we see the shameful behavior of big business that puts people before
Profits at the same time as having guilty knowledge of the dangers of their products and anyone who’s watched the grenfell uh inquiry the the evidence is Haring but it’s also extremely angering to watch just the attitude of of of these people um from The Cutting companies and who who helped
Refurbish uh the tower we had a drive to save money through value engineering using cheaper products fair enough we want to make savings but then these companies pocketing these profits for themselves not sharing it out with everyone and we’ve seen through years of austerity the hollowing out of local
Authorities and their power and their powers and enforcing uh health and safety regul regulations and what we see with grenfell what we also saw was the imbalance of power where corporate Witnesses were granted immunity from any oral evidence they gave during the inquiry while the residents of the tower were threatened with
Deportation so who are The Bad actors that link these vents so we have a corporate culture where we have a rampant pursuit of profit Above All Else aided and a bettered by a light touch government that removes any of these burdens to business and fails to provide C
Efficient resources to Monitor and and regulate as I’ve said previously what gilded lives the corporate Elite have in the UK serenely gliding from boardroom to boardroom picking up a Gong and a few non-executive directorships lacking any fear of personal accountability from a legal system TR in their
Favor the attitude of the post office towards the sub postmasters was corporate gaslighting on an industrial scale shifting blame onto the submasters with the guilty knowledge that their it system was defective and I think we’ve got to it’s it’s ongoing the inquiry but I think we’ve got we’re pretty sure that this
Knowledge this guilty knowledge goes higher and higher and higher as we learn more and more but we have a parliament where the lack of working class MPS means there’s a lack of experience of the lives of ordinary working people at the heart of our government and I always say I’m I’m
Obviously I’m slightly biased but I always say we need more MPS who wear a Hive is for their jobs not just for a photo opportunity and if we continue to draw rmps from such a narrow pool of talent from the business world is it any wonder that they create
Laws that favor big business over that the lives of ordinary working people or even those that don’t work because one thing one thing that gets me and slightly annoyed is we’re always talking about working people as if people who don’t work are valueless and I do think we need to change
That and we have a parliament where many seem to see their role as a sideline rather than as a primary job and where Hospitality from various corporations enables a pretty cushy life far from the reality the rest of us experience and moving on to the media we
Have a media with a broadcast media overwhelmingly drawn from the middle classes and a BBC who I’m very proud of I think it’s one of our greatest institutions I’m certainly not one of the be not not one for knocking the BBC but I feel it’s lost its way with the
Ongoing political threats about how it will be funded and we have our a hard right media that politicians fear rather than respect and a media that claims to represent the people at the same time as promoting hate and Division and throwing up false enemies an honor System what happens to those people in
Power the perpetrators of these many injustices as I said before they get gone they get a job in the cabinet office which Paula venel did after she left the post office we have sir Norman Bon who played a significant role in the aftermath of the hillsbor disaster Paul ofen with a c
CBE imagine what impression this has on the victims it will feel like the full state of the law is against you we have collusion moving on to another Scandal very briefly we have significant evidence of collusion between the police and the state in the case of the
Shrewsbury 24 pickets and the pickets at or grieve both of these sets of pickets were charged with unlawful assembly and some with Riot very serious offenses and there’s also been collusion of evidence of police collusion in the blacklisting Scandal and between the print media and the police look at the Daniel Morgan murder
For more evidence of that and I won’t talk about them this evening but there’s other injustices the contaminated blood Scandal the nuclear test veterans abuan so that’s that what can be done let’s let’s let’s try and be let’s try and be positive after all this bad and bad news I’ve given
You I believe and I I’d look forward to hearing from other people we need a genuine hillsbor law that imposes a duty of Canada and all public officials what came out from the government recently recently was not that in any way whatsoever and we need to provide a Level Playing Field in
Terms of equal access to the law what happened with the post office Scandal was that the the post office uh legal team try to extend the length of the legal process so hoping and knowing that the post office submasters would run out of uh run out of money that’s absolutely
Disgraceful and the uh the original were the families of the 97 victims at Hillsboro you know didn’t have the same access to the law whereas the police and the ambulance service had unlimited funds there’s that’s just basically unjust and we need to we need to have some form of Lon 2 inquiry to
Investigate the relationship between the press and the police we were promised it and as you know the the the conservative government abandoned it um I can’t think why but they abandoned it a number of years ago and when we promote business which we shouldn’t be anti- bus
We should be Pro bus and there are many good companies out there but i’ just like to say yes let’s be Pro business but let’s be Pro ethical business they must have more of a responsibility ju than just to their shareholders or if they don’t why are we
Giving them millions and millions of pounds of public money does anyone actually believe that the Regulators such as off Gem and offw have the Public’s uh principles or or interests at heart and I’ve I’ve dealt with ofm quite a bit in relation to the um the the energy pricing and that’s there
About us that’s their mission statement are job is to look after the interests of the public now there’s no way I think anyone on a prepayment meter will agree that they’re keeping to their statement but also we can be a Relentless Ally to the victims uh before
I spoke this evening I’ve been messaging um Lee Castleton who’s one of the post office victims who you may have heard about and he’s asked me to ask you to contact your MP and ask for these compensation schemes to be taken out of the hands of the government and the
Hands of the post office and be and be led by an independent body so I’ll definitely be writing to my mp again I write to him quite a lot about that and I believe at the moment it seems to be going the other way in our in our what
Is becoming a very polarized Society but we must take every attempt to promote empathy and compassion back into our politics not join in with a race to the bottom and when we have tough choices to make and we will have tough choices to make can we make sure that these tough
Choices don’t impact further impact the most vulnerable in our society and sometimes that will mean we need to work with people who we profoundly disagree with on many issues and as I said before as politicians and activists it can be very easy to get hung up on process and
Political Concepts and I speak as an exlp chair where we’ve talked about motions all night and actually at the end of it have we actually achieved anything not really we might feel better about ourselves but we must embed ourselves in our communities to understand our communities but can we really change
Anything our current problems can be overwhelming austerity 14 years un counting of austerity the war in Ukraine climate change and the very real threat of a World War I’m going to leave you with a message of Hope about what you can do do as an individual in 2009 at the 20th
Anniversary of the memorial service anfield Andy Burnham was speaking to the crowd and I hope that Andy Burnham I’ve put this in a blog already I hope he wouldn’t be offended I have the greatest respect for him but hope you wouldn’t mind saying if while his speech was
Heartfelt it sounded very much like the rhetoric of many other politicians rather than the compassionate liver pudan that I know he is and Andy’s pledge that 96 football supporters who died will never be forgotten was met by one lone voice from the crowd we want Justice that was one
Voice and anyone who listened to that will remember it ended up the whole crowd breaking into a very long chant of justice for the 96 at the time I know it’s 97 now this had a clear impact on Andy Burnham and he carried on his speech with great
Composure but this one voice in the crowd set off a chain of events that led to the formation of the hillsbor independent panel which revealed a lot more about the disaster and subsequently to that it led to the second inquest which found that the 97 victims were unlawfully
Killed one loone voice did this your lone voice can make a difference too so please stay angry please join the dots and please take action thank you thank you very much for that I think I mean speaking for myself first of all Julian I mean I total agreement with you
Because obviously two of those things are very very close to my heart with the Hillsboro and grenfell because one of my relatives actually went when when grenfell fire happened and when they to when they took the people that survived to different places there was no organization at all and she she was
Probably she girl in her 30s she’s she’s half asian and she’s not the bright you know she’s not sort of a great education on how to organize or anything but what she is is a very warmhearted and caring person and basically the community did most of the organization early on for
Grenville and it’s it’s just incredible that you know that communities do come together and and that quite a lot went on that you know otherwise and I mean I know other people um I know one one person that was that had a flat there and she um she said when it came to
Rehousing and that took a long time because obviously they were stuck in a hotel and she said there’s just one thing I asked is please make sure it’s got a fire safety certificate whatever you offer me and what did they do they finally offered us somewhere that didn’t
And it’s just a total lack of you know uncaring and and all that s of thing now at that point I will shut up because otherwise because there’s lots of people here I think um would that would like to get in and um ask questions and things
So um if I can just ask people to um do the little hand figure thing if you can because I can’t quite see everybody I don’t think so um who would like to ask the first question otherwise I’ll RAB it on all night all right come on sorry I couldn’t see you
There John carry on John you keep moving who me yeah you Sue’s the first one in the line I can’t I can’t see yeah and okay apologies whoever’s top of the top at you two ladies first Sue why not yeah I mean I was just going
To say that how appropriate it is to have you speak Julian because Bly is here he’s not going to speak he’s our trades Council um secretary he’s just had a major operation but I mean he has been part of the leading light about putting on some films about all griev
And whopping I mean John and um Steve as well but I mean I think what you said Val was very appropriate and it was absolutely clear at the time that there was no organization around gville and I remember you know the criticism of Theresa May for not going down there and
There was Jeremy with all those poor firefighters who looked absolutely exhausted right I think it’s Steve next isn’t it right Steve next it right yeah I to be a bit more topical really at the moment about Gaza and about what happened the other Wednesday in Parliament um where we saw a uh
Contested decision by the speaker and his response was this to basically scapegoat a large proportion of society by saying it was uh MPS were threatened basically he he didn’t say in so many terms but the right-wing press have said that by Muslims they have scapegoated the Muslim Society by members of that
Community for for the basically large scale uh demonstrations against what’s going on in Gaza now to say that these people are the they are the people and they are threatening MPS basically if you look at the lies that have come out on the mainstream media about MP’s uh offices being
Attacked and so all there’s absolutely no truth to it at all and a lot of the people that are actually on those demonstrators aren’t Muslims anyway they’re Jewish they’re they’re atheists they’re Christians they’re white they’re black it’s but it’s been done to scapegoat a proportion of society that’s
What I see going on and that’s what I see that is actually now that gaslighting is going on to scapegoat those people I don’t know how you feel about whether you see it as out or what well there’s a there’s a lot of gaslighting about and there’s a there’s
A wide variety of people who go on those marches I just I just think think I did watch um most of that in Parliament and I I can understand why it happened but it it didn’t do it didn’t do Parliament any favors um whatsoever um because you know we’ve
We’ve got to realize as political activists which I think we all are on this call that most people aren’t really interested in politics and they’ll probably give it four or five minutes thought a week can you imagine that how how much more relaxed our lives would be
If we if we had that but uh obviously we about it but um we’ve got we’ve yeah it it didn’t whatever your views um on that situation it didn’t do Parliament any favors at all going going back to what Sue um and and Val said you know
Yes there was no there was no or very little support um for the um for the victims uh of grenfell and that is partly due to austerity because all the all the support’s been hollowed out um o over the many over the many years but it
Is it it is I think it is a cultur of indifference I just can’t it can’t be anything else than that because we’ve seen too many examples of it which I which I’ve spoken about um already and they seem more interested in in if there are any illegal immigrants living in the
In the tower than anything else to be Hest almost not not quite saying this but almost that it was their fault you could say I think they they went back from they went back from that but it’s it’s absolutely shameful and the look there’s no doubt I’ve spoken to one of the
Firefighters that uh was investigating um grenfell um and there’s no doubt that the firefight has made mistakes on the night but think about think about what they faced they’ve never faced anything like that before it was inevitable they were going to make uh mistakes and they were dealing with a building that was
Not safe to live in it wasn’t just the cladding on the outside it was the smoke vents there’s failures in the fire doors there’s all sorts of things going on and I know I felt quite upset about how the firefighters were scapegoated um in the first stage of the inquiry and
I’m really not confident because there’s so many the AR conic and um the other companies in involved there’s so many different companies involved I’m sure it’ll just be a merry go round of of blaming each other and and finger pointing so I’m not sure if we’ll ever
Get to uh the the bottom of it but I wouldn’t and I’m I’m I’m not naive so I don’t think this will happen but there are politicians who are at the roots causes of why this happened because they allowed these regulations to be um to be weak weakened so severely because that
Emboldens these companies they if you think you’re going to get away with something and you haven’t really got any morals you will get away with whatever you can and I’m sure that the the pr people in these companies will that I think they almost believe their own hype
Because I’ve I’ve SP I’m a health and safety rep I’ve been a health and safety rep for a number of years now no one no manager ever tells me that safety isn’t their top priority it’s patently obvious that safety isn’t priority it’s the pursuit of profit or it’s saving money I
Could go on for a long time about that I’ll stop immediately thank you I’m not sure who’s next John yeah hello Julian thank you very much for that um it’s the whopping dispute that uh you touched on earlier I think Sue mentioned it uh and I was a witness to that and
There were regular press be briefings by a police officer during that dispute um who ended up going to prison and um nothing seems to have ever been said about that or you know no not not even a sniff of of the corruption uh and that
You know um and I just made a few notes Yeah Eddie Shaw there’s a name some people remember yeah but it started with a dispute in the Nottingham Evening Post and the man that was uh advising the management of the Nottingham Evening Post was a man called Christopher
Paaro and he went on to advise uh Murdoch and you know it just goes to show you they’re all tied up together aren’t they and uh and I don’t know how we can stop this maybe we should get a human rights lawyer in charge uh that would
Help but you know it’s looking around for the right one that counts doesn’t it you know well anyway another name from the past which is probably well before you were born Lord Denning everyone remember Lord Denning how they used to wheel him out you know
To take any anyone that was picked up by the old bill in a dispute so there’s lots of stuff there from the past um it’s such a shame no there there’s a there’s a lot more and I’ve also met the uh the the Shrew or some of the
Shrewsbury um Terry wrench or uh the Shrewsbury 24 pick and you know they’ve got they’ve been Vindicated that um um convictions have been thrown out thankfully but there’s a there’s a long history and this is why trade trade unionism is so vital you know Trade union I see trade unionism as
You know a a benefit for the country not we’re we’re not the enemy with it that some would like us to to P portray um uh and uh yes so I know starma was was one of the uh one of the QC was he a QC at
The time when he defended the whopping um members and actually starmer also um defended the M liel too if anyone’s watched that film and one thing that starmer and Corbin do have in common is they appeared in that M liable film they were the only two politicians
To do so not sure how they’d feel about that today but uh there you go so thanks yeah thanks very much for that and your and your your your words about whopping very important dispute but another another bitter failure in the history of trade unionism unfortunately Mark over to
You oh we can’t hear you unmute can you hear me now yes yes we can hear you now uh great I I would suggest there is s some things that we could do which would make a difference we could change our political system so we got away from this adversarial type
Of system that we have so that there is more cooperation between all the parties I would like to also suggest that the various Regulators for offw and offg all of that lot the chairman should always be independent of the industry because so many of these people on the um
Regulators and the regulator boards come from the industry themselves or go back into the industry and I I think that if we could get greater Independence there it would make a huge difference um and those are really the two things that I think might actually alter the culture
In in in this in this country and might help us to be um fair to all thanks Mark I I absolutely 100% agree with you about the need to to reduce this adversarial politics I’m a big let’s not get into this debate now but I’m a big proponent of PR a fairer voting
System um that’s not that is not the answer but it’s it’s the first step the way I believe um because we do we do need to we do I work with um my opposition my Tory MP and my constituency pretty well when we can we we disagree on virtually everything but
When we can work together uh we do so reasonably effective and you’re and you’re right about I mean there’s so much there’s so many ways we need to improve our democracy but you’re absolutely right I I touched on it in in my my talk but it is absolutely a
Revolving door they go from the industry to the regulator back to the industry old boys club in the main I’m sad to say and you know there’s no there’s no I’ve got no especially offg I’ve dealt with um and and read their website uh from start to finish it seems I’ve got no
Confidence that they are in any way the the energy consumers Champion so yes I’m I’m in definite agreement with you on that so thanks very much and I would like to say before before I forget thanks very much for putting up with me today because it’s the first time I’ve
Spoken on this so apologies if it was a bit read but um I will I will get better I’ll get better with time I’m sure but thank you for being my guinea pigs for this speech anyway thanks a lot Sue I think you are next well I think it was
An excellent speech and I thought it was very fluent as well the only trouble is that there are so many things that I want to say about it well I’m happy to there was a an interesting we had um lri laurn and and Matthew Lawrence at the weekend talking about climate change and
They had this formula which was 1714 so it was for every one um what would it have been there would be 14 for every one action on climate change there would be seven actions which were against and 14 would be going to the shareholders that was
The corporate um um ratio what I was going to say is that there are so many of these um situations I think there is actually a study an academic study of agnotology which is about inducing Amnesia in people and that is what we have with our media and it is really
Something which everybody should be camp campaing about the fact that Murdo owns so much of the the media but in addition um the was the media what was I say I’ve got so many things to say I can’t can’t remember but basically basically I know what I was going to say
It’s all down to Osborne and Cameron and the coalition government the first things they did I mean they obviously had a great stack of plans to put out so the amount amount of legislation that they withdrew which protected workers in terms of um you know needing to pay to to what was it
Their their line was that you needed to charge people to challenge the employer because otherwise there would be a lot of spurious claims so that was one of the first bits but of course removal of legal aid and of um of the capacity to have inquiries uh about anything so I mean
Really that’s what the left should be doing is we need to have a similar plan of action that we could take when in power in order to undo that sort of legislation because the fear is and I think justifiably is that it’s all just going to remain the same and there’s
Going to be some more tinkering around the edges whereas what we really need is some positive action to protect the people you’re talking about I mean you know the the I mean I love this idea of guilty knowledge I mean it’s wonderful but we need to have specific legislation
To protect people like the Windrush folk the the Grenville I mean Grenville we’ve still got buildings that are covered with that clading haven’t we anyway so the question was really is we need to get perhaps the unions to draw up some sort of campaign about the legislation that needs to be
Withdrawn what you I know I know that work’s been the new working deal is has largely been written by people from the Union uh movement as my understanding but I I just we can’t beat around the bush I think the UK I think we always think of I think we’re and I
Suffer from it as well from exceptionalism I think the UK suffers from very severe corruption yes and we always think of it as other countries I don’t know name a country Mexico Italy it happens there it doesn’t happen here we’ve got severe corruption in this
Country and we need to wake up to it you won’t hear about it in most of the media um and even the issues as brought up in the hillsbor um during the hillsbor inquests about the influence of Freemasonry I don’t know what the influence is because it’s a secret
Society but it definitely it definitely has had some influences on some of the scandals that we’ve heard about and we we can’t have um you know secret societies um like that but I know you were hinting in it about you know the that the the Tories want to to curb judicial
Review um which is a fairly basic right and one of the one of the few the few steps that um we can take to to challenge the government and also industrial tribunals um which I know they they introduced payments for them and then they’ve with withdrawn them there’s an
Interesting um uh uh judgment on that which is quite amusing to read and quite scathing of the of the the government at the time um I think it’s was 2015 uh 2016 but um yeah we need to do a lot more I think unions have a a large role
Uh to play in that um but whether we’ll be given that role I’m not quite sure because unions there still people you talk about unions and people talk about the 1970s and and um British Leland and stuff like that although I think now I think I’ve been
On picket lines uh not my own so much because we actually don’t go on strike on L that much but I’ve been on a lot of picket lines on National Rail over the last few years and the latest pick lines I’ve been on over the last
Year we are getting a lot of public support we never used to get that we used to get a lot of abuse if I’m being quite Frank and we’ll get one element of abuse and the rest is support and good on you so I think things are
Changing but I think we’re going to have a general election where everything is going it’s going to be extremely dirty election everything’s going to be polarized they’re going to throw in these false issues and and wokeness and and all that sort of rubbish because they’ve got no they
Can’t they can’t go on the platform of what they’ve achieved because what they’ve achieved absolutely I’m very proud to be British you know but I’m I’m I’m just ashamed of what this what this government have done to this country and our standing in the world we’re just a
Laughing stock and at a time when we need to be working with other let’s not get into brexit but when we need to be working with other countries you know our standing is absolutely appalling and that that needs to change so whe you know perfect or not or not we definitely
Need a change of government absolutely and hopefully we can get when we’re in we can get some of the changes that we need and we’ll never get everything that we want no one ever does but let’s let’s keep pushing for it and let’s keep pressing
And let’s see where we can go because we owe it to all the victims and all the victims and all the families and all the pain that they’ve suff to to make the effort because sometimes I think a lot of people actually think it’s too overwhelming there there’s too much
Wrong with the world I can’t fix anything I’m just one person we can change things you know things don’t change they they don’t change in you know places with 5,000 people in they start off with conversations between one or two people in dingy rooms and then they spread and
Then they spread an ideas form and you can change things one step at a time and if we all join together like like in a trade Union that’s also a good idea as well can I say that that is one of the really positive things about you coming to
Speak because it is overwhelming because you can’t think of a single thing which is better and I’m sorry um Matt someone wanted to speak before me but I that was what I was going to say I also wanted to say there’s an elephant in the room here about the victims of
Covid and what happened there and the way that the hospital staff was treated I mean it’s just swept under the car carpet completely they the re the the non-provision of PPE was the very least that we could have expected and then we have Michelle moan and the like sorry I I think somebody
Mark wanted to speak didn’t you uh yes I just wanted to I I remember something else I wanted to say and I forgot when I was speaking before was that I would love the labor party to commit to getting Trade union members on the board of companies um because I think that would
Al alter the culture cons considerably and also to really look at how we fund political parties so that influence can not be bought by big business and I have to say I’m actually not a member of the labor party mainly because I’m concerned about the way historically the labor party has been
Funded by the influence of of trade unions as a block I’m very happy for members of trade unions to contribute to the labor party and even for the Trade union movement to collect their membership fees but I I I would just like to see a great independence of of powerful bodies influencing our
Politicians no no don’t fair point I I think I think Trade Union money is a lot cleaner than um than a lot of other money that we don’t know where it comes from I agree to that but but um yeah no I do I do I do take your point um what
Was what was the other thing you mentioned because I did agree with that as well but it s um we both gonna forget that that Trade union members on Boards of companies I wanted yes and they did talk about having membership on the boards maybe not Trade union members but
I think it was like a an employe employee but then that was that was quietly dropped I think and and going going back to the long covid um I watched I don’t know whether you’ve all watched breathtaking I found it I found it I’ve watched a lot of programs I probably
Found it one of the most difficult Watchers ever and almost couldn’t bear watching it and I’m pretty I can watch most things because for a start it annoyed me incredibly I was just very very very angry and I just found it incredibly upsetting about and I
Remember at the start um I dealt with um in a very small way I dealt with um making sure that the underground was safe for for our members and for the public for it to be safe as it could be uh for the public as well and we were very close to
Actually throwing the towel in and saying we’re not running a service because we don’t believe you can keep it safe for us it was very close and the the drivers almost had enough but I do remember and we we we wanted PPE for the drivers and the and the station staff
And the fight I recognize the fight that they that the this the the doctors and the nurses had in a far more severe way and a more dangerous environment that we couldn’t get the PPE and it was all about public health England say this and we knew they were behind the curve but
What they did what the nurses and the doctors did and and the cleaners in the hospital was absolutely incredible and it’s shameful absolutely shameful how they were treated and I wrote a Blog about it’s time to stop clapping for the carers because I thought it completely disingenuous it was disgraceful what
They were doing and it had to stop um but yes that is another issue but yeah long Co is just at the moment it’s just being swept under the carpet and it’s not right if nobody else has got anything to say I can add to that in that one of the
The things that the government and the wh was saying was that it wasn’t um an Airborne infection it was it was that it was all by touch and washing hands made a difference as a biologist a parasitologist that’s the last thing it was obvious that it was Airborne but the who had some
Experiments in the 1920s that said that flu was um what do they call it um fomites so was a a spread by touch and um they’ve stuck with it well the reason they’ve stuck with it is quite clearly because corporations bosses etc etc do not want to introduce the sort of air
Conditioning or the ventilation of buildings that would have well not just knocked out covid but would have helped with flu and colds and all the rest of it so that’s another example thank you I was just looking S I was looking away but I was just looking
Up because I’ve got a CO file on my computer it’s a very it’s got loads of loads of uh different websites but I know they downgraded covid uh very early on so they wouldn’t require the same uh level of PPE and it completely shocking and with people who weren’t
Epidemiologists as well on the whole they were um mathematical modelers or or um yes there weren’t even a virologist on the panel most of the time but that’s sort of a particular bug bear of mine but what happened to well to the people who died of covid and the people who
Were working in those hospitals it’s just I mean it’s the hugest Scandal well all of them are the hugest Scandal anyway yeah and and and the arguments that I had about about ventilation I just went on and on and on I’m keep the kids in school when the kids are always
Known to be an absolute sewer of viruses oh God yeah that’s AB absolutely that’s anybody else I can’t see the top I seem to the you you two are on the top of mine Steve and Sue that’s why I can’t see if you were wanting to say anything I could go
On forever but I won’t okay I I can’t see anyone one all right oh that’s good yes I must I must have to rethink myh strategy for these Zoom meetings I think we must have covered just about everything haven’t we um you know we’d have to start digging
Into history um with some of the stuff well I think you could advertise the whopping film John well I could yes uh the whopping film um it’s going to be on the 24th of March um and we’re actually going to have one of the victims of Murdoch there um and
You know myself who was a witness to it because obviously I worked in the printing trade and along with a lot of other people we went up there to support our uh fellow members that had been uh done away with as it were uh and of
Course it was the same old thing you know we’ve been talking about this tonight um uh and it you know the lies that was told about that uh you know I I even saw a news item where apparently the demonstrators and Strikers had ripped these railings down you know and they
All look like Spears don’t they and and they were throwing them at the police uh and I have to mention it to my dad I said well I walk past those rings at 2 o’clock in the morning when there was hardly anybody there and they were still
Up that came as a news item on the Sunday evening so I suppose that comes under gaslighting or similar um and that sort of thing but you know right for right almost from the beginning of um of Thatcher with the slow so-called Enemy Within you know that that was all part
Of it and and it hasn’t stopped it’s just carried on and carried on got worse the latest example of it is how terrible um the MPS are being treated by all these terrible people that marching through London and of course I’ve been on one of those marches and I never saw
Anything that could even get anywhere near um verbal violence because I think that’s what it is but you know they like to make a lot of it and Lindy o has Stak his reputation on it which is not very high yeah anyway there you go there’s a lot of lies about from from
Thatcher onwards oh yeah yeah she really got going just go getting back to the uh the changes since uh the 80s we do have uh uh YouTube we do have more uh things like Nara media there was a lot of Alternatives out there which wasn’t there in the80s and and the business
With the police my understanding at the time was that the police was styled on Colonial police that’s where their policing came from that’s why certain people like football supporters who are seen as scum trade unionists who were seen as scum those were the people that were deliberately picked on but what
Really did did Thatcher in the end the story I heard was the pole tax rights what happened with the police they actually then started thump in anybody and there were a lot of people who went there who weren’t uh used to it they weren’t Trade union they weren’t used to
Being pushed around at football matches they went there they came back from the uh they’re coming back from the theater and suddenly get a truning across the back of their heads that suddenly changed it wasn’t just the The Usual Suspects that were getting dumped it was
A lot of other people and that opened people’s eyes to how the police most people thought they were going to bump into Jack Warner or something but you know that’s that wasn’t that’s their view of the policing from the 1950s but that’s wasn’t what was happening in the
80s and I think a lot of eyes were opened at the end of the 80s when they saw what was happening with the PO tax rights I think with this with the sub poost Masters they’ll see them as you know the the salt of the earth people
Down the bottom of their Road and I think that’s why it’s it’s taken its time because this this Scandal has been brewing for a long long time but I think you know finally and it’s a shame that it took a um it it took a ITV drama to
Actually sort of highlight it but I’m glad it’s done it finally the yes can I just say uh about the um thing that you touched on about the contaminated blood I mean that at least the uh the postmasters are continuous the people who have been affected by the contaminated blood are
Dying every four days one of those people dies and that’s that is the real cynicism of the government just to play along like they did about the um people who were suffering from the nuclear tests y uh the the ex prison Japanese prisoners of War they kept it on kept it
On and at the end these hoping that everybody would just die off which is real is absolutely it’s happened to the wind Rush um generation and shwy 24 a number of those died before they got the sort of Justice um that that they received so the the fight goes
On there’s no answer at all I think that’s right Julian it’s been it’s been absolutely marvelous to to listen to you and and have you along tonight and um I think you’ll find we’re we all in agreement with you and I think it sometimes helps when when we get
Somebody else in and and we we talk about things and you know I think you’ve got such a positive outlook as well that that we can all change things and and I hope I wish you every success if something if something really good happens to you a little bit bit later on
In the the month or next month or whatever and and we’re all rooting for you here thank you so thank you very much indeed can I just check who it was that you wanted us to write to um however your but on on because we want independence of these um off count
Off Comm off Gem and so on that was that was actually wasn’t my idea compensation someone else had had that brilliant idea I can’t claim that but it was all because they should they should be independent from the from the industry yes out of the hands of government
And is there a a specimen uh a pro forer that so we can get a hold of I haven’t I haven’t got one it was only I texted Lee hlon and I said I’m I’m I’m doing a little speech and he said I said what’s the what’s the main take that you’d like
Me to get over from you and that’s what he said what I’ll do is I’ll I’ll email please who exactly and then take it from there but I do think if you add that one in about the um um about the um contaminated blood uh no the independence of oh yeah
Yeah yeah and then add in about um taking away the um definitely the post office involvement and government involvement from from the compensation schemes oh it’s was was from the compensation scheme what I wanted to the trouble is they they’ve been talking about it as compensation but they’ve got to pay them
Back what they’ve already paid and then they should be compensation on top exctly I can’t believe this and you our people are so accepting of stuff and well they’re not obviously but other people are there was a bit of of gossip about Paula venel is it venel is that yeah but
She was brought in by the Archbishop of Canterbury to re rejig the the churches and her view was that they had to shut down all these churches and now a common theme yeah but they’re now having tremendous problem because all these congregations have been split up and
They haven’t got the money and so I mean woman was an absolute Menace wasn’t she yeah where did the money go to that’s the point Thank You Julian you’ve been absolutely wonderful well thank you thank you very much very nice CR and I tell you train drivers can be a
Tough crowd so you you were lovely oh will we are we do try but we’re not always lovely in in where if we’re in other meetings with awkward issues to deal with are you allowed to be the awkward Squad at times as well oh thank you sometimes it’s called for what I’ll
Do is I’ll I’ll I’ll I’ll send you some details of my my blogs which cover some of the issues we talked about send those details and um yeah great great to see you all and um good luck with your future endeavors