PLAN B – DOES BOYCOTTING WORK? (WITH ERWIN DAWSON)

Erwin Dawson’s recent TikTok video condemning western leaders went viral. We invited him to discuss the video and his thoughts on the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, which strives to stop international support for Israel’s oppression of Palestinians and encourage Israel to comply international law.

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You’re listening to plan B podcast the opinions expressed and shared on this podcast are of our own welcome to pamb B.G this right here welcome to plan. sgm Zar and I’m D mark and I am Raman you know what that Stinger we’re still talking about as in that Stinger rather he still talking

About the Ukraine thing which started uh two years ago M two yesterday are you sure yeah 2022 the actual Invasion oh the actual March in yeah February 2022 I mean I just looked it up how time cuz I was thinking we have not changed this thing what have you achieved in lot no

Actually not and in fact they say now that Russia probably is going to win the war I mean not probably but as in it’s going to end up in some kind of still mate and you know Russia is going to basically retain the land that they

Who’s reporting is this uh this is I mean this is De yeah as well as BBC cuz you know I mean this part of world we don’t really talk about it anymore m i mean even here actually we talk a little bit more about Myanmar maybe okay but

Even then it’s also a bit more now conscript Army then people are cing out to leave I mean didn’t you notice over the past years like there have been more Myanmar people in Singapore yeah bro oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean clearly it’s especially in the last 6

Months yeah a lot dude like you said now they’re conscripting I mean would you stay in your country if suddenly they started conscripting you to fight no I stayed in my country I conscripted so and probably you but we’re not Myanmar bro exactly like we are not living under

Military hun yeah so that aside that’s a topic for another podcast uh today we have invited someone yes who I know for a very long time already wow uh he’s a celebrity here in Singapore yeah and of course in Malaysia quite sometime back two celebrities in a room what can go

Wrong that’s I I’m a retired celebrity I’m an entrepreneur all right all right no no um recently uh several of his videos went viral I think one in particular was him talking about uh his disappointment uh with uh Western countries for their stands um with with the conflict that’s

Happening in the Middle East specifically talking about Israeli Hamas conflict that’s happening and um that particular clip on Tik Tok has gotten over 350,000 views uh and here to talk about this conflict is Arwin sha Dawson in the studio welcome to the studio thanks for having me wait Dawson

What an interesting name I mean sorry I didn’t know like you didn’t know his before he came Dawson I didn’t know the full name oh you’re mixed is it like oh interesting okay what’s the dot sorry I a bit language n so wow cool oh really so you have family

In New Zealand yeah but I was brought up with my M family so I don’t really know them oh all I know is that they were the descendants of German wow nice the Hoffman and the Stein Houser family wow okay that’s you actually know yeah I’m quite amazed that you know yeah they

Have a whole lineage uh the tree so one of them was when we go back many generations one of the thing that caught me surp by surprise was that Queen Victoria of Hanover h a n n o v e r I was like wo I’m like part Prince

Roy wow okay well I mean but that’s also partly because the Royals had a lot of children that’s true we’re bringing you back to the conversation of that particular video that went viral yes um you seem very passionate uh voicing your opinions that’s that’s not the only

Issues that you normally talk about you used to have a podcast talking about different things uh intra religion issues uh social social issues international issues and this in particular kind of like uh you you were quite affected by what’s happening share with us um the gist of your sharing in

This video yes the emotions that actually you you you ventilated no I guess um I mean I feel like there’s a lot of hypocracy going on and my conclusion if I to speak bluntly right I think the Western powers are the cancer of the world no you know I think they

Have lot of uh lot of negative influence again I mean especially us even especially modern countries in Asia we tend to sway and lean towards how their lifestyle are right and I think that’s wrong and I don’t like it because as I mentioned in the video you know when you

See oh during the FIFA World Cup they don’t want to wear the rainbow unban oh boycott Qatar and this is this we’re not talking about lives loss here you know right and then when we talk about genocide that’s happening right now oh they abstain from voting you know

They they don’t vote for the feast fire I’m like but they always trying to portray like they have the moral High Ground when you mentioned they is it like a particular country in or is it like an life Western Powers generally you know like in from NATO from us you

Know Canada and all so I think it’s time that we stop looking up to this Western power so much I think they’re full of it why do you think we are looking up to them yeah I mean look at us you know nowadays if you talk about individual

Culture and races right it’s uncool to follow our culture you know we want to we want even when we do wedding photos we want to do western style and we losing touch with our own culture and I think there’s nothing proud to be if

You’re from the West when I look at it I think Asian Traditional Values has more meaning right yeah it’s more conservative yes but I think it brings people to the right path more than how the Western lifestyle are yeah interesting I mean right now I think I I

Mean I don’t know like even in my circles I don’t think a lot of people look up to the West anymore cuz the West has kind of shown itself to be a bit of a TR I mean like to put it very bluntly like a TR like they can’t

Even get their own Affairs straight the US in particular I think has become like aing oh my God yeah the clown of the world man yeah but the thing is right like when you when you single out I mean when you talk about the West that way about hypocrisy in particular one thing

That struck me when I saw your video was what’s so special about it like like name me one country that’s not hypocrite name me one one country okay you see if if if I mean it’s normal especially when there’s politics involved everybody have to put up a front you know but don’t

Play Hero for it you know you’re already voting for what’s wrong and you still want to find an angle that you are the one in the right path you know they out they’re being very outward about it m you know I get it people are hypocrites in general sometimes sometimes we have

We are forced to play the cards that you know we don’t want to to we don’t want to play but yeah but they’re really really trying to show that they’re the good guys and it’s to me it’s just cringy at this point but we can’t change

That one I mean we’ve got no impact power or even persuasion over the west or how they want to portray things yeah which is what frustrates me no plus the stances have changed I mean like right now I think like the I mean Netanyahu has basically really isolated himself

From even his own aies like he’s really openly gone against them and the the friction is becoming more and more evident it’s becoming more and more coming up to the front even with the US so in that sense like I mean sure they might we have been a bit slow but the

Fact is they are principle in the sense that they are calling actively still calling for Palestinian statehood in fact that’s something that I think us has constantly talked about they said there’s no future without Palestinian state that is their official stance really talking about the government or

The people the uh government like that’s that’s the stance because I thought they were not for you see every every how many years when they were trying to vote for this what act or resolution I don’t remember whereby they’re trying to promote the two states Solutions or something mhm every year it’s always

Israel and us that vote against it but whenever you go on media they’re like oh we have to look for two- State solution I mean that’s the level of hypocrisy they have every year they’re the one who votes against it and they’re the ones who’s voicing out as if like oh you know

If if Hamas don’t do this and then does this happen every year I mean the voting problem it happened even uh recently right like when there were calls for certain kinds of like let’s say ceasefire sometimes they don’t like this word so they say to hostilities or

Whatever want to call it to mention that like uh but not all European country or Western Country kind of vote against the humanitarian ceasefire they only 10 yeah but some abstain though I think exstension is as I mean you not doing anything about a crime is as good as you

Being a complic well I mean the problem right now is that international law in general there’s no enforcement mechanism in general right so like even if you do it is symbolic even if you don’t it symbolic yep ultimately it’s a matter of whether or not n is actually going to

Stop anything mhm like right now it really doesn’t doesn’t seem that way because he’s just trying to not die yeah it’s his own personal survival but okay this is this is nothing new right I mean it’s been going on for years like suddenly okay now I want to ask your

Opinion on things after the whole 7 October thing suddenly is like taken a life of its own everybody but this has been going on for years but the position of the West the fact that you know they were arguing for a two State thing for don’t know how

Long and I mean even since when I was a kid I remember watching the news about how Palestinians under attack people there are under attack meat was alive man yeah exactly so so why would anything change I think maybe because okay humans right we tend to forget we

Are distracted easily by what’s new you know and I guess the recent times it’s just gotten way too much it’s as if I’m living in an era where I’m observing a holocaust happening MH Y and there’s nothing we can do so I feel like the basic little thing we can do as human

Beings right is actually whatever that we can do spread awareness voice out against put pressure online or at least boycott whatever that they’re doing ah so speaking of that you do take part in the I think I think it’s called bdh boycott divers sanction uh movement as

Much as I can as much as I can but can you like just describe to us what what this movement is in the first place cuz I think not everybody knows what it is is thereit but is there an official stunts though on whether what do you mean official stuns on whether is

Boycotting it’s not a national thing but I think it’s a ational like International movement yeah yeah and I don’t know for me I I’m not really my intention is not like I want to take part in BDS or anything I’m just as a human being thinking like what little I

Can do with whatever little influence I have to at least make an impact because I mean I’ve appeared on a different podcast before in a m in a m podcast right and they were saying that they don’t think the boycott does anything you know and for me it’s like because

Everyone thinks that way therefore nothing no changes is going to happen you know so I feel like if only everyone thinks with their compassion a bit I just if I can just like uh the boycott is actually working in some countries like in Malaysia for example there’s some several several McDonald’s

Have been shut down because of low sales in Morocco so it’s happening as well many countries actually yeah um but okay so we are clear with your uh frustrations towards Western uh government what’s how they are reacting towards the uh Middle Eastern conflict um but what about your view of our

Government wait wait no so before you go there you talk about the BDS the working in certain countries like Malaysia in particular because I think in Malaysia the sentiment is very strong right um yes you may be working in the sense of you’re hurting maybe McDonald’s big what

Yeah there was a big issue about the employees in Malaysia the fact that you know the boycott was not immediately so the the problem right now is defining the word working what does it mean by the boycott is working shutting down establishments yesing if it’s like robbing people of their daily jobs then

Maybe it’s not the local people are losing their jobs whatever whatever you define working as so I don’t really have a clear understanding of how do you define this working is it sh shutting establishments but I would want to know right now your stand on uh the our local

Government are we responding well you’ve heard of things like neutral STS like I said you abstain from even taking part you know you are pretty much an accomplice so I’m pretty disappointed I would say I might get into trouble for saying this you know but I mean it’s

Your opinion op opin I I feel very disappointed I mean I do get the strong ties we have with that that state you know that blue and white State you know but I think because we preach a lot about oh like oh we can’t even get into

A fight you know you hit back is considered afraid like there’s a lot of moralities going spreading around in our laws you know so what more can we actually do as a country voice out man man why are you still I mean if you’re if you see it like you’re a parent and

You see your kid hanging out with some hooligan you know there’s bad news but yet we are still like buddies with them like really I mean doesn’t your friends actually show you what kind of person you are in a certain way we voted in favor though exactly bro I know I mean

But about the ceas fire right no no not about that bro in general because you see if I have a friend and he’s behaving wrongly I tell him off but right now we are still trying to Jugger their hearts who is quite vocal on on my social media about

This and I’ve see I’ve seen many local influencers are also quite vocal about this people individually are also sharing things yes so when you say we is it based on your question who who am I refering the government in general I feel like we have not voiced out firm

Enough because right now no matter what anyone says right there are still countries who are still allies with that state behind the scene and I think we are one of them and I don’t think we should be friends with genocidal murderers I mean to to be fair I don’t

Think that we are friends with them behind the scenes I think we do quite actively uh hold on to the stance like you know that they are a strategic Ally we do have uh close ties with them in terms of mil when you say when you say

Strategic right in what sense I believe when it comes to military right we have quite close military cooperation with them no but you see there’s there’s a bigger uh Chasm here right you have like the whole uh different blocks in the Middle East you got the the Saudi block

That’s against the Iran block and then you have the Russian influencers and then you got China and you got uh India coming to the freight and then the recent spats with Pakistan so if you’re talking about international relations where the hell Singapore is going to fit

In all these how are we going to like be friends with this guy not be friends with that guy it’s it is much more complex than that but we won’t be able to summarize it in one conversation I get what you’re trying to say but I

Believe when it comes to right and wrong shouldn’t be anything complex if it’s wrong it’s wrong why why do we have to oh because this is a strateg strategy really people are dying man people are dying and people who are not supposed to be involved we talking about five-digit

Amount of kids know people who don’t even want to be involved in the war yep and we are still okay with that so my point is what if this thing were to happen to Singapore someday would we expect our allies to help us and voice out against this or like oh because this

Ally of ours are needs to maintain good TI with Le we have to understand are we going to take that stand no ma okay you know I mean I do think that actually when it comes to self-defense that is actually the stance that we take defense

Yeah as in cuz you’re saying what if something like what’s happening in Gaza happens here yeah right and I think that’s that’s what I’m saying the St in Singapore has always been quite like self-reliant ultimately self-reliant we have all the friends in the world but we always plann for when every when

Everybody’s going to turn their back on us especially in recent years because of what’s been happening because like you said you’re pointing out the hypocrisy of the West right and the hypocrisy of the West is something that I think is not lost on us because we do see how

Even for something as close to them as Ukraine so not even don’t even to Palestine like so far away just at their doorstep and they didn’t lift the finger they didn’t do I mean they sent in some stuff but even that’s drawing up right now so I mean like I think if

Anything Singapore has kind of seen that and and kind of realized that we really cannot rely on anybody except ourselves in a sense you can say I mean it’s not a pleasant State of Affairs yeah is quite I mean quite depressing if you think

About it but that is I think the the set and maybe hard truth that we have accepted that’s why I mean for US national service has been you know a thing for a very long time because I don’t think we’ve shifted from it’s nothing new we’ve always been we’ve

Always held on to the idea that we need to be self-reliant first cuz nobody owes us that so are you suggesting that uh us when they say us the sing war government taking a neutral stance they’re doing this to serve the best interest of our people I mean I don’t

Think that it’s neutral first of all M but y I mean it’s always been self-interest I don’t think any country in the world do things outside of their own interest but I think that’s the problem with what’s going on with the world everybody is just accepting this as a

Fact but I mean if everybody were to be giving nobody would need to be doing the asking bro I mean if everybody keep adopting this selfish selfish stance then where are we heading as human beings man mhm I mean I get where you’re coming from I get where coming from but

The problem is like you said this we live in a world where there are sovereign states so the unless you have like a One World Government kind of everybody’s going to be interested in their own preservation because by definition we are solitary sovereign states like I’m not going to be thinking

About Malaysia’s well interest Malaysia is not going to be thinking about my self-interest because it’s our self-interest you get what I mean so I mean I get where you’re coming from like it’s it’s of course it’s an aspiration like I I feel that too you know like

Obviously when people are dying it’s an ideal yeah I mean we wish it was an ideal but what sucks dude like I mean the past two past two years in particular has really shown that it’s a shitty world and it’s not getting better anytime so in fact like

Every bloody mon it seems to be getting worse so what we’re going to do about it no I mean that’s what I’m trying to do you know I’m trying to set a good example to whatever little I can if everybody were to just lay back and

Think about me I me then we’re just going to get worse as a civiliz I mean as human civilization we just going to get more worse less empathy less compassion I mean evil is never going to stop and why is the good giving up I mean that’s my point let’s talk some

About some of the uh reactions towards your video that you have uploaded on Tik Tok uh are there certain reactions that you feel uh uh you know that you see some Ray of Light Of Hope for singaporeans reacting to your video or are they largely living in certain silos

And like undisturbed about what’s happening outside I mean it’s nice to see that majority understands where I’m coming from and they like oh thanks for voicing out and all but part of me think like what about you why are you thanking me do your part rather than just boycott

Voice out show how everyone is expecting something to be done there’s no pressure being applied and but I do get it you know there’s this whole fear of you know like what happened to this lady influencer who got called up you know is it yeah you know and she made a video

About it you know and even this even though she came out harmless right but that that that action that happened to her right suggest to people that W I will get in trouble if I voice out okay can we can we put some context out like

What actually happened to her I I can’t remember fully but I think she was she went to activate in some protest in Japan or something and then yeah and then she was uh at the uh immigration and then she got pulled aside right pulled aside and I don’t know what’s the

Word to use interrogate investigate I question I think question yeah got question you know so Instagram Pages got kind of like look through her postings her captions and all that and then she made a video about her ordal and she suggested certain things that you should

Do in the case you get stopped by police at our borders but I I really am interested to point this question at you Raman like uh is it illegal for a citizen of Singapore to participate in a protest outside the country that I I don’t think it is uh

Per se because there was a question that uh a listener uh DM and I think uh in Australia there was a demonstration that was being done uh it was a pro Palestine rally and then some of our friends actually carried the Singaporean flag and you didn’t mention that against the

Law yeah yeah so you cannot anyhow display flags and all that one national symbol okay there’s specific regulations but as as a citizen of the country participating in in a protest outside of the country is it is a great area there have been many singaporeans actually who

Post videos on social media where they go to rallies at different locations different places uh but the thing is it’s not about that it’s when you when you do other things and there’s always risk in some countries there are things like weapons there are things like uh protests going violent it’s a peaceful

Rally if it’s peaceful rally I don’t see I from what I know there might not be there should not be any issues yeah I mean I tried looking it up actually because I think there was some question of whether it’s even legal in the first place because and I can’t see anything I

Did see the MFA would generally ADV like advis to avoid yeah discourage this kind of stuff because because it’s a Confluence point and sometimes you know when emotions are high things can get yeah plus I mean like honestly if you want to put it them bluntly right we’re singaporeans like we’re soft as

Right like we don’t see this either we tamed yeah we’re very Ted we don’t see the we how to hand yeah we see people marching and cheering you know like maybe our hearts will tremble a little bit so I mean but generally beond that you feel excited yeah no I mean i’

I mean I’ve heard I’ve seen I’ve talked to people who have been in for example in Egypt when uh I think Arab Spring was going on and how they felt quite worried yeah and also friends in India who say I mean when they go back as in like to visit their family homes

Or whatever and like you know you got a bunch of Hindu nationalists running down the street with knives and stuff then oh serious it’s scary I mean so I mean it’s not something that we’re very used to and you never know what the foreign

Law is like right so you don’t want to get caught on the wrong side of the law there even if nothing wrong per say is happening to you here yeah but I mean it’s your own discretion I would think like you know if if it’s nothing against

Here I feel it’s them stupid to be questioned for it in the first place yeah I agree with that very strongly man that’s why this is what I mean you know if now people have this idea that oh if you voice out too much you’re going to

Be monitored you know then all this fear will make people think I rather save myself I don’t want anything to happen to me I got family to feed that’s why that’s why evil is winning in this worldo everybody’s just thinking about me so okay you talk about the uh

Influencer right but I mean she wasn’t actually arrested or anything but there was news right that two events are actually under police investigation right now because that’s related all this so I think one of them was the letters for the yeah for theana um with the umbrella water umbrellas right and

The other one was some kind of that has happened right yeah yeah it happened and the police are actually investigating okay so I mean like what how would you react to that I don’t know this is where it gets all blurry for me as I mentioned I mean Singapore in Singapore we were

Brought up talking about you know moral values all the time you know and okay but when it comes to fighting for what’s right somehow it’s being great right now I I don’t know I feel like if I’m part of the movement I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong it’s just

Carrying an umbrella with an armband and we are trying to make a point here mhm you know there’s nothing there’s no aggression going on but even that’s not allowed in Singapore and when we tried when not we I mean when people who try to organize uh at a

H yeah I mean I mean we as in the people who are siding withans when they Tred to apply for a permit at hongling Park yes it was turned down it was turned down y but here are people with good intentions you know they’re not trying to stir crap

Up you know they’re just trying to voice out and let let their voices be heard on behalf of the people abroad we’re trying to do what we think what we think is right y but there are other instances where uh certain uh events are allowed uh case in point the Palestinian Film

Festival that yeah the film Film Fest they kind of like happened uh sometime ago do you think these sort of events are um how to say places where you are useful for you to ventilate your emotions uh is just the right is that the right Channel or is that not enough

Or even the humanitarian packing stuff that we were part of as well yeah I don’t know I just don’t think the idea of us having to always mind our own problems and not being able to voice out things like this right I just think I feel like there’s a bit of an oppression

In my opinion okay I don’t like it but okay so look at it this way again now we have an international incident right and of course this is this has been categorized as being an Israel Hamas uh whatever war that that’s going on well overseas yeah uh I think the government

Has taken a stand which is very clear we cannot import uh International incidents in we cannot bring that conflict here that’s got nothing to do with us again yeah you’re right so so hold on on let me finish so so then we are encouraged to display our

Our um support for them in in healthy way so like what Darren talked about just now the the we pack the food the uh Palestinian Film Festival these are arguably healthy ways of uh an expression of Allegiance and expression of um not Allegiance support allegiance to the cause Allegiance only one bro one

To the cause to the cause okay but anyway yeah uh the point is if we have a March like what what was the umbrella thing right it could have easily been a flash point if you suddenly have somebody come and say oh I’m pro Israel right then how is it going to

Break into an allout scuffle would that uh what would be the ramifications of such an incident happening here are we prepared to handle that do we have Israeli communities living here do we have I don’t know whether we have Palestinians here I don’t think so if we

If we agree to what Darren has mentioned we soft as people I don’t think they’ll be scuffles I think we are too mature of society to actually but but I get what he’s trying to say I mean the government is just taking a more precautionary

Stand I would say I mean I get it because I mean so they don’t trust the people no you can put it that way but it is it is fragile I would say I I get what he’s trying to say it’s not that I’ve not given it a thought which is why

I got frustrated I don’t know what else to do and I do the video yes don’t know what else to do and I mean I think you’re not alone right because a lot of people do feel that way as well they have very strong so on that point wait

You do the video anyone call you and say that was wrong or whatever I want to intergate you so no oh you see than God I mean hopefully it stays that way no but okay so on that point I also get the fact that doing your food pack thing is

Getting stale you know and then it’s not sexy it was never sexy and we don’t even know if the help or the aid really reach reach there not we don’t know yes then on my part right you know I feel like every Friday the prayers at the MOs you

Know then they just it you almost feel that be it has become a token prayer yep yep I agree I hate to break it to you but it kind of is my opinion yeah my opinion is like it has become like oh we just doing it for the sake of of doing

It because that’s the most we can do yeah so then but then the question is what else to do right I mean like if the answer is nothing what are you going to do about it that’s my point no no there’s more he he has mentioned wants

More people to voice out using their platforms regardless of your following right just to bring back the point about you saying that or being strategic and all but but for real dude have you guys really seen the number of lies that have been caught by the Israel

Government like how many times they have lied through their teeth how much it’s like whatever they claim Hamas has done is a is a mirror of what they actually have done and I think you talked about it in your video right like I think the

Worst one of the worst that they did was when they accused uh unra was it of some of the employees uh being part of Hamas and then because of that a lot of countries withdrew their support Their donation their monetary support for the organization so now they’re saying that

One of the only organizations that’re giving humanitarian a right now in there’s rwa right but do you even know the history of why is it when it comes to Palestine is unra but when it comes to everyone else is UNH C is it why is there even a difference do you know how

Did that even happen not I’m not sure look it up it was sick man that’s what it’s all part of Israel’s plan because if the Palestinians right will be under the other one instead of unra then they would have the right to return to their land but the Israel actually fought for

This unra to be formed so that it will segregate them you know it’s deeper than that I’m just scratching the surface look into it though it is sick why they even separate this to why is it only for Palestine the rest of the world so it’s it’s permanent dispossession of the land

Basically right that’s what are you making uh subsequent videos about this in the future do you plan to there’s part of me that has a bit of helpless feeling like do I even need to do this but whenever I keep quiet for too long it eats me up inside okay so perhaps I

Will but there’s too many videos to make about how much that Israel has done you know because I’ve seen other people making it and it’s not just a claim that they make even even their local newspaper has voiced out against their own government and they were shut down

Yeah you know like for example the ra party civilians has witnessed that it’s actually their own Israeli security forces that caused most of the fatalities not Hamas you know I think I I have the I have the journalist name in my phone but I don’t have it on the top

Of my head and that’s just one of it so talking about like uh editorial news side here in Singapore they think that uh they have done their part in covering this uh conflict objectively or you think more can be done I don’t know I have not come across anything that is

Really really taking a the right stand according to what I think is right no but there was a lot of uproar because when CNA I think covered the investigations right of the of the two events and then they talked about they basically copy pasted the police statement so police statement say oh the

Phrase right from the river to the sea is associated with violence that’s why they intervene that’s why under the police statement that’s why they intervened into the event because the slogan was being uh portrayed and to them because there’s association with violence so there’s grounds for them to

Intervene and to stop uh but of course the thing is it’s not just that right like it has a much deeper meaning for some for Palestinians in particular because it is a call for State Hood it is it is basically an it’s the extender

Of how long the the land should be so it has very deep meaning for for a significant group of people as well and then CNA just completely didn’t talk about it they just copy paste the police statement and then say oh yeah associated with violence M so I mean

That’s why do you think why do you think CNA is doing that I mean why why do you think I mean it’s just editing now like editorial I mean are you sure that’s how you truly feel yeah I mean there’s no what do you feel what do you

Feel I mean it’s your opinion it can be yeah this is your speculation yeah the truth is you know it’s up to how wants to put it but this is your speculation what you think okay put it this way um I saw a news video I can’t

Remember which station right but one of our Minister not going to mention name uh is actually agreeing with the fact that he made a claim that Hamas had always wanted to wipe Israel off the map okay but the Hamas chter itself distinctly actually mentioned about they only against the whole

Zionist movement they don’t hold any uh I think what they don’t persecute People based on religion or whatever not you know and even up until today when you see the hostages that were released they are still in good condition I mean the Israeli hostages you know but when it

Comes to people who are held hostage by the Israeli forces they come out looking like they don’t have a soul in their face anymore you know and D this is just one of the many things you know and like you see you see before don’t talk about

7 October you know our government was quick to stand up and saying that all the atrocities blah blah blah what about the ones before 7th October you know we have videos of a father standing by the street with a kid getting sniped for no damn reason nothing about that isn’t that us

Being Hypocrites as well but yes we always talk about oh when when it comes to 7th October we are quick to go against Hamas without any investigation this is uh I mean cuz just nice I was talking about I have I have weird groups of friends so I had a group

Of friend that was just cting why are they weird no cuz this this guy was citing the Hamas uh chter yeah so it’s article seven where this friend of yours from N US law so not law not law but I mean he I I think he did research so

Basically uh it reads as this the day of judgment were not this is I’m I’m assuming it’s translated from Arabic the day sh in your WhatsApp group yeah okay now I just realized it’s in my this kind of should not be in your phone so I’m just going to read it

Out any but disclaimer not my view okay the day of judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them then the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees and the rocks and trees will cry out oh Muslim there is a Jew hiding

Behind me come and kill him H where is this from again article 7 of the M chapter is this legit but this is 1988 then he then he added on cuz this guy researcher so he said 2017 they rewarded it a little bit to be more accommodative towards the Christian

M okay that but isn’t it also preaching violence I mean I don’t know what you want me to say yes yes and yeah I mean it’s it’s a that’s why but then look wouldn’t it go against like like religious viewpoints not to harm woman and children no no I

Think I think that is taken out of context because if I recall correctly right there is a Hadith I might be wrong mentioning about how at the end of times right the it will be the Jews who are hiding behind this tree and it will be

The tree that will like you know like say hey there’s the Jew behind the tree so in that context right at that point of time based on that prophecy right it would be us against them and at that point of time it will be if they don’t

Take our life we would have to I mean it’s either us or them so they I I think they’re talking in context of the prophecy yeah but that’s clearly way many years before 1988 religious interpretations aside I think the crisis right now is more humanitarian correct

Like you are seeing people who are not of the religion also coming out to talk about it locally we see local DJs like Mike kassum vaneta Lopez joining in the you know the growing voice of concern about uh the thousands killed uh in Gaza um do you do you feel there is enough

Awareness in Singapore about this we can do more I think we can do more but honestly if you ask me I’m pretty clueless at this point yeah I don’t know what is the more that we can do yeah so yes so you see you don’t know what the

More is to do right yeah and I get that but I just feel on a larger scale there’s going to be great difficulty on managing the situation like I’m putting myself in the position of of the leaders yeah so so how the hell how you going to

Manage this for so like I said like for me I feel like w Friday okay this is something for them to solve because they have paid a lot of money exactly there something for them to solve because as the attacks intensify right now people continue to

Be upset yeah people are running to the people are running to uh Rafa for shelter Rafa Raa is being bombed in fact even worse they said by Ramadan so they’ve set a deadline yeah and by Ramadan they expect I mean if if what the hell right yeah yeah it’s I mean

It’s so when is it that our side our leaders is going to make a stand that we do not want to associate ourselves what can our leaders do this is I’m telling you if let’s say whether they want to do or not okay yeah I mean if let’s say

Like you look at okay for me right look at look at Turkey for example okay I think that that prime minister is one of the president president I think I think he’s one of the best Wang person ever oh okay I was going to see whether which

Side you’re going to Darren has a issue with him but he plays it smart is it he would say he I mean talk against a lot but he does nothing right nothing but the politics of turkey is very different from so so but wait on that note right

What you want our leaders to do the whole bloody area all the Muslim people there doing nothing no but you see we can control other there doing nothing but but my point is this we can never control others but we can control ourself so I

Mean the least I tell you I would be pleased if they were to voice out that they disassociate themselves from people who are murderous people people who are actually reenacting a holocaust right now that’s going on I I I’m just happy to know that okay at least my country

Understand that we’re not going to we’re not going to be anything to do with them anymore but we are not why okay uh we still friends should be friends I I’m a fanit when it comes to supporting or you know disregarding government or whatever it is but to their credit uh someone

Like for example K shamam has from time to time uploaded about the atrocities committed in Gaza on his Instagram page is that not enough of uh know what else do you expect him to do I mean you have a point but you saw right yeah yeah you

Saw the both things right yeah I did but I just think like I feel I would feel at ease if we actually vocalize saying that we do not want to associate themselves if Israel anymore I don’t think that’s going to happen you see exactly why not

No it is not just Israel from an international relation standpoint I don’t think Singapore will ever say that we are associating or disassociating with any particular country would you be at ease if we adopted what the Saudi did uh saying that they don’t want any diplomatic ties until they settle uh the

Conflict in Israel and Hamas but yet behind the doors actually still dealing it’s easier for them to say that as well would you be more aible to things like that I don’t know I there Wang as well that’s true that’s Wang as well anyway so so that’s a good that’s a big ass

Point right because they are there yeah they have land they can take in the whole people if they want to they they have armies they can have support they have money if you want to talk about land right it’s not Saudi you should be looking at Jordan I mean like I think

Already the vast majority of Palestinians live in Jordan I mean as refugees jordanians historically were Palestinians yep but of course I mean it’s it’s a like you said like it’s a political problem right that’s that’s why the stance of so many people I think including us is that the solution has to

Be political it’s not war you shouldn’t be fighting so that’s why I feel a bit of for me okay while I I get your cause and I understand where you’re coming from I I feel you want to react what over here what you want to do I I think

I understand like uh at least like a Viewpoint something like what Malaysia is doing okay imagine okay you see again back to no no you see like like for example what Malaysia is doing Malaysia has its own what is Malaysia doing let’s let’s just put this rally I think uh in

AATA Arena or something like that then the Prime Minister came down it was like uh you know showing of solidarity yes but I don’t know what happens behind it did they slap Israel with sanctions or whatever I don’t Malia doesn’t even recognize isra as they have no relations

With that yeah so um has that achieve anything nothing no l they g a lot political support because no that’s the thing it achieves nothing because only one country is thinking about it you know that’s why I say we cannot control others but what are we doing what are

What is our role here I see yeah doesn’t matter whether it causes an impact or not but where do you stand what are you willing to die for as person no so my point is are we trying to just make noise to make ourselves feel better okay

Imagine or is it because we want to achieve change we want to achieve change want change then if we want to achieve change it cannot be such that we are doing things just to make ourselves feel better you get what I mean but that might be just the byproduct of it you

Know I mean okay put it this way when Sadam was executed right it was because he br broke two un resolutions and eventually there was no proof of weapons of mass destruction but the whole world was so quick to go against him and this one you have one guy who broke more than

70 yeah and we still trying to be politically correct not voice out because everybody think that way that’s so actually on that note I mean are you hoping that the US would actually invade Israel H at this point I really don’t even look at us anymore I think but basically the

Principle of it are you looking at external intervention are you hoping that there’s going to be external who else is going to help them man no I mean anyone cuz like you said not the US I mean clearly not the US come I mean look at y they’re so poor and yet they’re

Trying something to whatever they can but it’s not well it’s not a Yemen government right I by you looking at like basically external States coming in so EGP invading right now when you when okay don’t don’t take on a national level let’s say you see one old lady

Being bullied in the streets yeah yeah you keep quiet M no then but why when it comes to a global scale where lives are actually lost we just choose to like what can we do just D it’s not I don’t think I don’t agree

With that man so as as much as I think we feel helpless about the situation what we’ve seen happen uh in recent years was how the world reacted during the Ukrainian and uh Russian conflict sanctions were imposed exactly on Russia I think the very least a country should

Do is to do that cut trade relations you know revise certain uh Mutual understandings certain deals that we have with this country make them understand that the country is not okay with them doing this at the very least yes thanks for speaking up for me man I

Didn’t know how to word it right that was exactly no I I agree with that yeah I know you’re just you’re just playing you’re just trying to throw the other side of the no I’m just saying that it is not something that is achievable um as easily well good things

Are not easy man definitely more more needs to be done but sometimes in the journey towards getting that change you may end up sabotaging yourself for example like I said if you you’re talking for Singapore right yes yes okay from a domestic perspective uhuh if we want to push for international change y

I’m all for it I understand and like what I said even if it’s not uh like like Darren said what do you want you want us to invade uh or any other foreign is that’s never going to happen now but perhaps a stronger peaceful president right if like for example Egypt or

Jordan actually moved in with their forces not to not to invade Israel cuz that’s not what I’m saying prot to protect the people like if you see someone on the street who’s being attacked all these fellas who are next door all these things which are happening on their goddamn backyard why

They not opening the borders I there there the part oh there’s another discussion on its own so so my point is they are doing all of that crap and and they are in they are within arms length of rendering all the help and literally arms length literally I saw the photos

And they not doing anything so I feel like if here you go and do protest you want to do a March you the potential harm of whatever you do here yeah backfiring it will backfire and there’s a higher likelihood of it backfiring because you’re going to end up uh just

Showing like H yeah all these fellas but would you argue that these things are happening put pressure on government to do something about this no I think these things are happening because people are frustrated they are angry they need a constructive place and method of voicing

Out and I think that is the management problem we are not having enough avenues for engagement we are not having enough safe spaces to ventilate to actually so to bring back to basically your original point in your video right pointing out the cuz you’re talking about why the the

Neighbors are not doing jack I mean it’s basically that because yeah the Western leaders are hypocrites so are the Arab leaders yes so are the middle the Arab leaders the worst bro they are the biggest yep yeah so that’s I mean so I mean your statement you

Might want to go to an Arab country sometime soon don’t worry just don’t just don’t go to the Saudi Embassy oh yeah okay no no problem just not thought of an analogy imagine during the Japanese war for example right uh whenever you see people who work for the

Japanese because why they don’t want to they want to do what’s good for them and their family right people frown upon those kind of people but those who fought against were the heroes right but now it’s on a global level what are we are we the ones who the ones who are

Working for the Japanese just so we can save our own or what are we what are we here where where do we stand where’s our where’s our moralities right now we are like Thailand which I respect during the time World War we allowed for I don’t know this is my

We allowed for the Japanese Army to be on bicycles to come through if I’m Thailand but hey we want no part in this don’t disturb us we’re just here living Our Lives that’s what we are neutral State yeah I don’t think we’re neutral but I mean like Raman was saying who’s we

Singapore I I don’t I don’t think we’re neutral about this like we do have stances okay we have voted on certain stances I mean those stances may not be agreeable like you may you may disagree with those stances we have also voted against Israel yes for and against in

Different different times yeah but most recently against yeah like uh for humanitarian ceas fire is in February or something yeah because Rec so I mean this is something that I believe when we talk toar as well like he he consistently he he he has consistently mentioned that Singapore uh supports a two-state

Solution yes so in that sense we do have a a a stun on this issue yeah yes of course we I don’t think I don’t know if we have any means of actually making it happen yeah that’s what I mean like so to me like we thought but here’s the

Thing there there uh I don’t know whether um social media covered it well there was a parliamentary seting where there were a lot of discussion on the issue itself is there not enough of uh stunts by the people in power to actually take into consideration what’s happening I think it’s the mentions were

More than the Ukrainian and also Russian conflict that definitely because I think everybody recognizes the fact that there is going to have a there is a strong resonance yes very strong no not only that bro at least Ukraine have their own Army this is not a war Ukraine and

Russia is a war that is not a war we’re not we’re talking about people getting bullied here they defenseless Ro so the humanitarian uh crisis yes the civilians yes right the I mean part of the problem is because H Israel keeps just ifying their things using this Hamas thing to

Say that oh because we can’t tell them apart the civilians and Hamas we can’t tell them apart so that’s how they that’s how they justify this so so to me I’m going to call out their BS you know why if they say that oh they they will

Even ask some of the reporters right then what do you suggest we do what do we suggest we do okay now I throw back the question at you so if let’s say your mom is being held hostage by a guy who’s pointing a gun to a head the police

Comes in oh you know what we’re just going to get rid of them by shooting both do you accept you don’t and then you are wiping all the kids out okay what if Israeli kids were in that area would you bomb using that same logic you won’t so here’s thing why double

Standard your reasoning um resonates with a lot of alternative media in the western uh democracy is happening case in point I recently watched a video uh The Young Turks you know the they were talking about surgically removing um terrorists exactly yeah that would be

The best way to go about I that’s why I feel um and you didn’t mention Daren that the Western view of what’s Happening uh between it is it’s not even alternative media mainstream media in the west is also starting to turn against Israel I mean of course there’s another

Question of so what what can they do but yeah I mean the same question can ask about us right what the hell can we do that is why to me right in that video right I don’t really go hard on Israel but I go hard on the west because they

Are the one okay Us in particular they’re the ones that are vetoing everything in favor of Israel they’re the ones that is stopping a lot of from happening you know which is why now I I tell you I don’t even have the heart to watch American films bro that’s how

Much I don’t want to support this crap man but and I get that I get that cuz I do think that the US is being a complete I mean that I don’t know what else I they’re clowns with power so dangerous I’m pulling this conversation to a close

So your your suggestion of how we as Citizens can navigate through this is by using our platforms to voice out boycott to boycott anything that cont attributes to them even Instagram okay here’s the thing here’s my explanation here here’s the here’s the part where people would

Say we are hypocrites right okay do do people say that no people would say oh then what BM all the wild bism why don’t you boycott this boycott that well for me right the social media I’m using is going against them having a taste of their own medicine but the food we

Consume especially that comes from them off the top do you have a list of uh Brands Brands McDonald’s Starbucks all this this Nestle and whatever not right all these food that you consume are the very reason why you need their medical equipments to begin with so why why give them the whole

Ecosystem they already control banking you want them to control the food you want them to control your the aftermath of the food that you eat hey you you boycott most of their products when it comes to consumption you’re also doing good for your health okay what do you

Eat every day what brands do you consume gardinia no that okay you don’t no what what do you I just buy EGS from Singapore chicken local local brandal or Malaysia I mean Singapore got eggs no got local Brands the last time you went to a Super Market bro local Cel you know yeah

Yeah they control the market Cel all very hard to penetrate through yeah I I really I really make it a point not to in fact I even downloaded this app that called it’s called no thanks what is that you can actually look through their serial code to see if it’s from

There really really to the extent you know yeah so if you’re talking about the waterm about technology if the technology can be used against them why not it’s more painful for them right yeah because it has the most reach so I’m going to use it against them which

Is what I’m doing but what can I do about the food can I make them eat it until they get diabetes no what what about your vaccines I’m against vaccines come on oh there’s a conversation in another podcast man that’s that’s we just went somewhere else let’s not let’s

Not get there let’s not get there yeah we will get there I want to have this conversation in future yeah not today no but I think actually what like regardless right I mean I clearly have my own views on on things but like I do think that because at this point you’re

Exercising your right right as as a citizen of Singapore to express certain unhappiness and I think like that’s perfectly fine because at the end of day and I do believe that one of the reasons why you’ve not been called up actually is because you didn’t Insight violence I

I don’t support it I don’t want I don’t want our people to be having war with each other that’s for sure and I’m not just saying this because I want to save my own ass you know but it is the truth the point of us fighting between each of

Us causing violence blood and in fact off a I think you did mention as well right like you you have your own views yes but you’re also not the kind who’s going to run around and stuff it around down I’m not I’m not I still I still see

Muslims eating McDonald’s I don’t go to them and like I don’t you eat are you talking about me you do I can can I mean I think that’s very respectable right because you have your own views but like yeah there are certain lines you cross yeah we must agree to disagree you know

If not we can’t have a healthy discussion about anything fantastic edn thank you so much for spending some time with us uh this is this won’t be your first time there’ll be more sessions to come in the future if you like be his last time last time you said first time bro

This is his first time oh sorry sorry lingu yeah I mean what I’m saying is that hopefully there’ll be more sessions to come yes I talk about the vacine thing we’ll be taking a short break with our friends from the Bravo Realtors right after this don’t go

Away you’re listening to plan B podcast the opinions expressed and shared on this podcast are of our own welcome to plan B.G this right here