Two more Tory wipeouts | The News Agents

Two more Labour wins in two more by-elections. Kingswood and Wellingborough were very safe Conservative seats, but now they’ve turned red.

The Conservatives have now suffered the most by-election defeats of any government since the 1960s – so what does this mean in a General Election year?

Later, we reflect on the life of Russian opposition leader, Alexei Navalny, who has died in a Russian prison.

#tory #politics #news #uk #conservative #labour #NewsAgents #EmilyMaitlis #JonSopel #LewisGoodall

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The news agents I think if you look at the results very low turnout and it shows that we’ve got work to do to show people that we are delivering on their priorities and that’s what I’m absolutely determined to do but also shows that there isn’t a huge amount of

Enthusiasm for the alternative in K armor and the labor party and that’s CU they don’t have a plan and if you don’t have a plan you can’t deliver real change and when the general election comes that’s the message I’ll be making to the country stick with our plan

Because it is starting to deliver the change that the country wants and needs I think if you looked up the dictionary definition of putting a brave face on it you’d see that clip of rishy sunak talking about his party’s latest catastrophic defeats sunak on the day after yet another byelection drubbing

Two by-election drubbings in both Kingswood near Bristol and Wellingborough in North hamptonshire these were both safe Ultra safe conservative seats they now both have Labor MPS on today’s show we cut through the spin we are ask not only whether the conservatives are heading for defeat in the general election but wipe out and

Whether there’s anything at this point rishy sunak can do to stop it it’s Lewis Here welcome to the news agents right I hear a rumor that our very own lady matless might might emerge from her weekend Slumber to give us her thoughts on yet another shattering night for the

Tories and we’ll be bringing you really important news coming out of Russia indeed a remote prison somewhere in the Arctic Circle Russian dissident and opposition leader Alexi naali has curiously enough died after taking a walk on the prison estate just before the Russian quote unquote elections but

First let’s talk about some you know actual Democratic elections and I do hereby declare that Genevie Victoria kitchen also known as Jen kitchen of the labor party is duly elected and I do hereby declare that Damian Egan is jully elected thank you there was so much spin about the

Byelections overnight the idea that the conservatives lost but labor just sort of won by default here are the facts Welling bough had become the safest of safe tour seats majority of 18 and a half thousand or so the fall in the Tory vote down by 37 and a half percentage

Points is the biggest drop for any party in a byelection since the war it had a swing of over 28% the second biggest conservative to labor swing in history and at that only just shy of Tony Blair’s record Kingswood was slightly weaker but at a 177% swing was still

Extremely good and both are way above the swing labor needs to get a majority if we see anything like this at a general election labor will romp home no wonder Kama having had a difficult week the toughest for ages sounded a very happy man on Friday morning I think the

Country is crying out for change every everybody knows that things aren’t working um their NHS isn’t working they’ve got a cost living crisis I think they’ve concluded that the touris have failed after 14 years they can see now the labor party has changed it’s a different party to the party in

2019 uh and they can see that we’ve got the answers to their problems and the point is this is part of a pattern the conservatives under Boris Johnson and now rishy sunak have lost more byelections than any other government in any other Parliament since 1945 we’ve started to expect Tory defeats at this

Scale a couple of years ago it would have seemed completely and utterly implausible remember that only three years ago in Harley pool they actually won a byelection seat off labor the collapse of the Tory vote has been sudden and deep consider in just a few years we’ve had cheshman amam lost to

The lib demems on a 25% swing North shopshire against the lib Dems 34% swing Wakefield to labor 122% oton in Devon to the lib Dems 30 point swing Selby in Yorkshire to laor 24 Point swing summon in Somerset 29o swing mid beds Tamworth Wellingborough Kingswood now all lost on

Bigger and bigger swings to whoever had the best chance of dislodging the Tories across the map across England north south east and west it is starting to feel like these are big waves of a leviathan tide that could sweep scores and scores of conservative MPS away and though by elections are not perfect

Predictors of politics by any means they do tell us something and right now K st’s performance over this Parliament matches or exceeds five of the seven leaders of the opposition who went on to become Prime Minister for Rishi sunak it is hard to think of any PM who was this

Deep in any hole or found any way out of it and all of this will be more and more demoralizing for the conservative party Grassroots and undermine Sun’s internal position yet further one other thing really worth noting it is the extent to which so many of these places voted for

Brexit and did so by a cancer in 2019 or 2020 or 2021 when the Tories took heartley pool if you’d said labor or the wants revoke article 50 lib Dems would be winning brexit Heartland seats like Welling BR or Selby or Tieton or North shopshire you’d have been asked if you’d

Had one too many appol sprits instead here we are the great realignment apparently reversed or at least halted brexit no longer Salient in our politics or nearly as much as it was so we’re joined now in a very special Friday appearance by our very own lady Emily

Matless Emily did you stay up I stayed up with a dog with diarrhea so I mean Moody’s byelection bouts were very helpful as it turns out so each time we went outside you know I was just checking for another little result and there they were um I’m I’m worried I’m

Worried what the results are here little piles of results my garden all right okay good well that’s that that’s a lovely image to leave people with over the weekend um look this is uh the thing is I don’t know about you the thing that I’m sort of struggling with

In terms of talking about these results is that they are both at once completely as expected and therefore it’s almost like we’ve got used to the sort of massive swings to the labor party and yet are still massive and they auger something truly catastrophic for the

Tores no I think there is nothing more fun personally than listening to the losing party the day after the byelection telling the winning party why they didn’t really win and it wasn’t really that great after their share of the vote has fallen by what are we saying 38 points yeah post record

Postwar record I mean it’s the it’s the largest number of byelections won by by labor against the conservatives for what 50 years since the 1960s it’s sort of broken all previous records they’ve won six just since July but we don’t even need the stats you just need to go to

The fact that yesterday we were meant to be hearing from the conservative party and that was all sort of set up and arranged and today we got a little note saying oh I think we’re probably not going to do the stuff that we don’t really really have to in other words

We’ve got into Crouch position now and I think the kind of excuses that you’re hearing are really interesting for example Jacob reog heard from him earlier talking about low turnout you know it’s all about low turnout and the funny thing about low turnout is it’s not really the

Argument you think it is it’s it’s kind of like saying I didn’t get many birthday presents because actually no one turned up to my party you see that’s why which has happened to everyone on the new AG quite a bit quite a bit not what we’re familiar with it is but I

Think it’s not a mitigation like you being deeply unpopular it means people literally couldn’t be bothered to leave their homes on a sort of Fairly barmy February Thursday to actually go out and I think it’s the same when they say people aren’t in love with labor

Nobody’s in love with K St nobody’s in love with as as if that’s the metric you have to be in love with I know this is my Valentine’s heart to a politician I think it’s worse because if they don’t love K St if they don’t love labor

Bloody hell they really really hate you if your share of the vote is down 38 points right well to listen to some Tory politicians this morning it would be it’s almost as if the the Metro metric for success for a by elction isn’t that you won fewer votes than you did last

Time I.E like that’s not that’s not how it works the metric for Success all you have to do to win an election is to get more votes than your opponent does it’s not whether or not you’ve won more or fewer votes in the election you had

Before where you lost right all you need to do is beat the next guy which the labor party has done spectacularly in election after election now yeah and I think it’s probably time that Rishi sunak stop talking about midterm elections because by my Reckoning we are no longer yeah honestly if this isn’t

Nearing to a bitter bloody end I I’m not sure what is and obviously there’s a caveat around that and obviously all sorts of things can happen but I think at this point you know we always put local elections in their right context don’t we say oh

There are a lot of local issues and that’s absolutely true you know in Welling BR in particular there were significant local issues to the extent that you know the former MP who exposed himself in a barred hotel room to his staffer was then replaced by his girlfriend and not a single senior

Conservative went up to Welling BR to support her in her campaign to try and win the seat so yes there were very specific local issues but I think the kind of swings now are looking like a pattern and for labor to be overshooting in these curious places that are former

Tory strongholds I think cannot just be down to let’s say local issues you know what I would really worry about if I if I were sunak in the number 10 and this would sort of just chill me more than anything else I would just worried that at that point in the Electoral cycle

Which actually only comes actually once in a generation or so where it almost doesn’t matter what the Prime Minister says or what the government does or what the message is and don’t get me wrong actually their messages being all over the place and continues to be all over

The place sunak seems incapable of being able to a light upon a message and a narrative and stick to it but almost irrespective of what they say and do it’s like the public have just stopped listening that you know public opinion you know people like you and me you know

We’re paid to have opinions you know dayto day and we follow these things dayto day the Public Public Opinion tends to be far more glacial and you know only shifts every now and again but like a glacia when it moves it really really moves I would just worry that

Basically the public made up their mind arguably at the end of 2022 with truss or certainly at some point last year about sunak and now we’re just waiting until he inevitable which is certainly what plenty of conservative MP seem to be to be thinking because because because they’re all deciding to jump

Ship I don’t know if you heard the interview this morning with Richard Holden the conservative chairman even he is not committing to definitely fight a seat at the next election it’s a conservative party chairman the guy who’s running the campaign it’s astounding obviously if I do go for

Selection anyway that will be very much down to the local associations as to whether or not they decide to so so just to clarify you use you are the conservative party chairman and you said if you go for selection at the upcoming general election so even the chairman

Might desert the ship well I’m I’m certainly not deserting anyone I’ll be if you don’t want to stand as an MP how else am I to characterize that no I’m I’m I’m campaigning for well it’s not in the end of the day it’s not my choice as to whether the local

Associations will select me we shall have to we shall have to see on on that front whether or not they do will you be actively seeking a seat some or sorry seeking a candid somewhere uh well I’m I’m hoping to yes yeah over the next few months but we’ll have to have

We’ll have to see whether there whether or not anybody uh anybody wants me Nick but that’s not the question is it what I thought I might hear is yes I’m absolutely determined to represent the conservative and conversation Nick I can’t tell you the areas obviously but

There are two or three or four areas that I targeted it will be down to the good voters of course the conservatives of upper whoop whoop but I want to be part of the next that’s what I was hoping to here and I hear from the chair well if and I hope and

Maybe chairman we’ll have to see if any if there’s any if there’s any vacancies and people decide to uh stand down or retire but you know I’m I’m hopeful that I will get selected somewhere that is amazing I mean Nick saying just to clarify which is a

Euphemism for I don’t think I actually heard that correctly that is insane right but I think I mean if you look at what’s happened amongst the sort of right-wing Tories this morning people like Andrea Jenkin who has already posted in her letter saying get rid of rishy sunak putting more pressure on

Hopefully to find others that are willing to support her now and say let’s change the leader and there will will be people like the Reese MOG saying we need to go harder to the right I think the interest inter in thing is the place of reform in this because reform got 133%

Of the vote in Welling bro much higher than sort of polling expectations 10% the vote in Kingswood and so on the one hand you can see why uh the kind of narrative is oh Rishi suo why aren’t you you know leaning more into your right-wing policies your right flank and

And sort of embracing reform and that’s going to be your way out but actually if you listen to benhabib and just to you know put this in context he’s the guy who stood in Welling bro came third he’s the sort of former brexiteer property developer who has you know freely

Admitted in the past that brexit uncertainty um leading to a falling property Market had made him loads of money now he was saying we don’t particularly want the Tories to do well you know this is not a strategy to get the Tories to move to the right they’ve

Had their chance you know we are now changed we’re not sitting here going we mind labor winning this seat they don’t we’ve done really well you know look at reform reform isn’t an Insurgency it’s a new business isn’t it we started 3 years ago 3 months ago we did 5% in Tamworth

Slightly less than that in mid bedfordshire today we’ve done 10% in Kingswood where people were saying we’re going to lose our deposit we’ve done 133% here which is more than our national polling this is a staging Post in the growth of Reform UK’s recognition in the growth of uh people’s

Understanding of what we stand for I’m not in politics to split the conservative vote when I joined reform UK I did it to obliterate the Tory party well they’ve kind of beaten me to it yeah and I think what’s what’s interesting about reform I mean look I

Think that you know that you can argue they’re coming from a standing start in most places and in that context 133% isn’t bad it isn’t bad it’s not especially brilliant I think had there been a situation where they had overtaken the conservatives we might be talking about a greater likelihood for a

Rishi sunak Challenge from within the conservative party but in a way even if they just get 133% we got to remember that the precursor to reform I.E the brexit party didn’t stand in seats which the conservatives already held in 2019 that was the deal that Nigel farage who

Was the then leader struck with Boris Johnson even if they stand and they just get 10% 133% in all of those seats where they didn’t stand before that could easily be enough to cost a whole sthe of conservative MPS their majority in a situation where the conservative party

Is polling way less than they did in 2019 so reform don’t have to do spectacularly well they can do all right and it still be a huge headache and problem for Rishi sunak and this morning rishy sunk when he was on his rounds was asked about reform and he actually

Responded by saying any vote here is a vote for Kier starma in other words he was sending a message to people who vote reform that they’re going to end up with labor but the implication actually of what he’s saying is more profound which is that a lot of people here I think lib

Dem voters chose to vote tactically right so actually if all they’re doing is taking Richi Sun at his words and saying yeah we don’t really care we just want to get geared armor rather than the conservatives then actually that’s what you’re going to see you’re going to see

People who’ve really worked out how to vote effectively how to Target their vote to the seat in which they are voting so that they can have the greatest impact against the conservative body as a whole and whether that’s coming from reform whether it’s coming from Tactical C Dem voting whether it’s

Coming from sort of hard out labor campaigning it’s all going to result in the same thing for the conservatives yeah and I think I don’t know about you Emy but when I speak to conservative MPS now or conservative inclin people strategist and so on what you start to

Hear more and more is not just the prospect or the worry or concern or fear about defeat it’s the Prospect and fear and worry and concern about absolute defeat about crippling defeat right I mean you know we all think of 97 as the big wipe out of course it was the Tes

Went down to 167 seats they still got 30% of the vote the conservative party has never dipped Below in the time of universal suffrage and even to be honest before that 30% of the vote if the Tes do end up sub 30% and they go down to 25

Or who knows what and some polls would seem to indicate that I mean we know how volatile the electorate is now we know what happened to labor in Scotland in 2015 or in the red wall in 2019 we know there are increasing Whispers And fear of a Canadian Style wipe out this refers

To the Canadian conservative party yeah exactly in 93 where basically they just get complet the conservative equivalent I should say of the of the conservative party here just get completely wiped out eventually they recover but first P the post can yield and can result in extremely dramatic changes in party

Composition especially these days so who knows you know you could it isn’t totally off the table now that we could be and if you look at the MRP polling which is a constituency by constituency kind of extrapolation of current poll you know yes it’s a bit of an exaggeration probably but you know

You’re seeing MRP polling which is showing you the conservative party with 50 seats or 100 seats even if they’re down to 100 120 140 seats they could be out for a Generation Well if this swing was repeated everywhere and obviously it won’t because there’s no such thing as universal swing intire general election

But I think one poer worked out it would leave the conservatives with four um MPS now look I think we should say and in a sense it’s sort of it’s on us a bit as well because this is a week which started where we were you know looking

Pretty closely at Labor’s travails you know we were asking about labors leading the polls was that slipping was it softening has kiss sta had his worst fortnite ever you know and actually the answer to that is sort of yes but two things can be true right kiss Dharma has

Given up on his massive 28 billion pound ambitious project we talked about that yesterday in terms of you know the UK recession he’s also had a horrendous time uh with candidates who’ve sort of been exposed as on the wrong side of anti-Semitism and of the kind of Labor

Leaders project to clear that out of his party we also know that Azar Ali is now fighting the seat in Rochdale without the endorsement of Kama and saying that he’s fighting against Kama standing up to the leader so all those things do not make for a great week for the labor

Leader you know to go back to Jacob re MOG they may not be in love with the labor leader or the labor party party but boy just look at how much they hate the other side right now and I think that’s why yeah you’re talking and the full body you’re talking about

Extinction level events now none of these things ever actually come to be you know they’re things that we flirt with as kind of phrases or theories or concepts for a short while but I think we are seeing something which is sort of systemically getting worse isn’t it

There has not been any any shake off really in terms of the Tor sort of problems for the last kind of two years no and sunak hasn’t been able to to light on a message and and again with regards to labor I think again as you

Said you know the two things can be true I mean sunak is is it is true Labor’s had a bad week but again it’s a bit like the inverse of of what I was saying before about the idea that the public have just sort of made up their mind I

Mean arguably and we we’ll see when it comes to the election whether it turns out to be true but arguably you know again it may be true and that people recognize in so far as they’re listening that labor might be having some struggles and some troubles but if the

Public and the elector has already essentially switched already then the inverse is is that labor can have all of the difficulties within reason that they might have but it isn’t going to make much difference a headline voting intention to the general election I mean I think what is true is that what you

Can see is in so far as the critique about Labor the public not being in love with labor or they not being tremendous enthusiasm for labor is true I think what you can say is is that you can imagine a situation given there doesn’t seem to be especially deep attachment

Necessarily to the labor party or the kind of Kia starma project you can imagine a situation where in government becoming unpopular quite quickly given how bad everything is the labor party might start to struggle electorally quite quickly but it’s a case of like you know one problem at a time that’s a

Nice problem to have when they get there I also think yeah I agree and I also think the contradictory problem is if you have a very very charismatic leader as soon as they actually you know get into power that shine rubs off I mean that you know that could be exactly the

Sort of thing that they could be saying instead oh you know he seemed like the sort of I’m going to say the Justin Trudeau effect you know which was expectations thing low expectations not bad all you have to do to get into power is actually have voters trust you they

Don’t really have to love you they just have to trust you right when we come back we’re going to be talking about an international story which is getting headlines all over the world which is the death in prison of the Russian dissident political opponent of president Vladimir Putin Alexi Nali stay

With us I think I’m ready to sacrifice everything for my job and for the people who surrounding me I’m not let them down and I’m trying to not to reflect about it all the time even if I would be de it’s nothing change my organization my Foundation

People around me they are they continue to work and this is something very important for me and for everyone else that was the voice of Alexi naali Russia’s most significant opposition leader for the past decade opponent of Vladimir Putin news came on Friday that he has died in prison the prison he was

At in the Arctic Circle the Russian prison service has said he was serving a 19-year jail term on charges that everyone knows widely considered to be politically motivated because he is an opponent of Putin and the most effective one that there’s been um not surprising

News I but one that is going around the world and is in its own way devastating the story of naali is simultaneously the story of Putin the story of Putin’s Corruption of his determination to obliterate anyone who stood up to him anyone who stood up for Russia anyone

Who wanted to hear the voice of democracy in Russia and the fact that naali has died in prisoners as you say the least surprising thing that I think anyone watching Russia anyone watching democracy could have heard except what I think we are reminded of is the fact that naali went

Towards that imprisonment I mean navali left Russia he was on a plane and he was poisoned with novichok as he was sitting as a passenger on this you know commercial plane novichok the same poison that we know the Russian government the Russian State used in

Salsbury to try and kill two of its own uh former officers that ended up killing British citizens on home turf naali knew he had been poisoned he nearly died he was cured in Germany and at that point he could have said I can do more outside

Of Russia I can leave the motherland and actually go and fight the good fight and take my message to America and Europe and all the rest of it but he didn’t he went back towards the Tyrant he knew he was going to get arrested his wife knew

He was going to get arrested and sure enough within 48 Hours he was locked up in a penal colony and what we hear from navani every single year at Christmas time is this sort of belief in the future that could be and so you’ve got this extraordinary image of a man who

Kind of knows that he will be killed by Putin that he will be killed by the Russian State and that doesn’t resile from it that thinks what he’s doing by being in prison by getting people still talking about him and now talking about his death he was a proper Mar he knew he

Was going to die for his causes and wanted the world to know that he felt that was worth it to actually be able to point the finger at Putin again another word we use a lot is courage and it’s hard to imagine someone who has displayed in political terms more

Political courage more raw human bravery than Nal and we should of course say that there’s been reaction from around the world to the news here’s the US vice president Cala Harris and Britain’s foreign secretary Lord Cameron if confirmed this would be a further sign of Putin’s brutality whatever story they tell let

Us be clear Russia is responsible and we will have more to say on this later we should be clear about what has happened here Putin’s Russia imprisoned him trumped up charges against him poisoned him sent him to to a Arctic penal colony and now he’s tragically died and we should hold Putin

Accountable for this and no one should be in any doubt about the Dreadful nature of Putin’s regime in Russia after what has just happened an indeed reaction from Alexi Nal and his wife Julia naala speaking at the Munich security conference if it’s true I want Putin his Entourage Putin friend and his

Government to know they will be held responsible for what they have done to our country my family and my husband and that day will come very Soon just to say in terms of how he died after being moved to the Arctic penal colony widely considered to be one of Russia’s toughest hardest prisons the prison service today in yamalo Nets district has said Nel felt unwell after a war Friday he had almost immediately lost Consciousness they said in a

Statement adding the emergency medical team had immediately been called tried to resuscitate him but we’re unable to yield any positive results so read into that what you will but it is a reminder it is a reminder with Putin for all of them there are so many Putin apologists

Out there some of whom are at the top of Western politics British politics and American politics and it is just a reminder that this is the guy we’re dealing with here because Naval is not alone the list of people that have opposed Putin and then suddenly mysteriously find themselves dead is

Extremely long and Nal will not be the last yeah and and your point is absolutely spoton that the list of people who have endorsed and fed over Putin is quite long too one of them is standing in the Rochdale byelection George Galloway big fan of Putin another

Is the guy who’s hoping to lead the Republicans back into the presidency in the Donald Trump and half of the people in Congress these days in the Republican party as well hence why they’re not giving the money to Ukraine to continue fighting on behalf of European democracy I mean that’s really interesting I

Wonder if that will change I wonder if naval’s death will have any effect on how people now view Putin visa Ukraine zalinski and what happens in that war my gut feeling is within 72 hours most of the republicans in Congress that opposed funding will go back to that place I

Wouldn’t bet your vet bills on it talking about which we should probably let you go back to let you go back to Moody shouldn’t we yeah of course I’ll disappear not in that way I hope not in that way not in the N valy way I’m sure

You’ll see me on Monday you’re not going to the goolag yet that’s where John’s been thanks very much lady Lady M thank you very much right just to get a better sense of the importance of this news and how it fits into the sort of complicated tapestry that is Putin’s modern Russia

We’re joined Now by Luke ing author of Mafia State book about Putin and Russia and also senior International journalist Luke thanks so much for coming on the news agents I suppose this is shocking news but not surprising news no I I mean it’s not surprising at all um it’s the

News that that Nani’s friends supporters family had been fearing for for a long time and it was clear that um if if you look at the last few years the Nani was never really going to get out of jail I mean he he was poisoned by by the kremin

By theb Security Service a few years ago he went to Germany to recover and recuperate um and at that point friends of his that I spoke to were were urging him not to go back but he did go back to sort of face down Vladimir Putin and of

Course was was jailed with criminal cases piling up around him um and I think what’s interesting Lewis is is the timing of all this um just ahead of a of a Russian presidential election we have to say election in infatic commas because obviously Putin’s going to win

Um uh and also of a sort of what you might term a moment of weakness uh in the west and the US in particular with with Trump saying that if he’s reelected president he won’t defend NATO allies and and and aid from the Biden Administration to Ukraine blocks so I

Think Putin feels he’s winning uh on the battlefield globally um and it’s a paranoid risk averse regime and it just turns out that their biggest critic and foe has died Luke can you just give us a sense just in case people aren’t familiar with naali or maybe they’ve heard the name

But haven’t sort of followed his story closely could just give a sense of kind of of the man and how important he is and how he ended up being in jail I last saw him in Moscow in 2011 just before I got booted out of of Russia and at that

Point he was well known nationally within Russia as a as a transparency campaigner as an anti Kremlin activist as someone who would go on to lead um Street demonstrations against Vladimir Putin 2011 2012 um and for a while the regime tolerated him um but I I think they grew increasingly um irritated by

His activities and at the same time space for any form of opposition to to to Vladimir Putin sort of shrank and and Russia went from being an auth authoritarian State when I was there to being what it is today which is essentially totalitarian where any form

Of opposition any kind of dissent is is a crime and treated as such um and and someone I would say Putin decided to kill him that plot didn’t work but but once Nali came came back it was clear that the regime could do anything to him

At any moment and and really he’s the sort of President of Russia that that that Russia never had probably never will have I mean he he’s he’s tall or he was tall charismatic um a great communicator a sort of natural politician very good on social media things that Putin isn’t um

And you can understand why why they did away with him you’ve already alluded to it Luke that he went back to Russia despite the fact that he obviously knew what the risks were and what would happen to him why do you think he chose to go back ultimately he he he thought

That if he didn’t go back to uh Russia he would become increasingly irrelevant and essentially he saw himself as a patriot as a sort of democratic Patriot of Russia of of of a free Russia that he wanted to to help create um and I I think probably the

Most compelling reason is that he wanted to show Vladimir Putin that he was not personally afraid of Putin despite despite the death plot despite the fact that Putin had this vast shadowy spy bureaucracy that could do pretty much what it wanted whenever it wanted um and you’ll remember that when he flew back

He released this this devastating video about Putin’s personal corruption and and his alleged Palace in SOI and describ Russia’s president As A thieving little man th little grandpa in a bunker so he was sort of personally rude about Putin in a way that few people were um

And so really I think everything was was coming to this point it was just a question of of of of of timing um and I think that the Kremlin is kind of relishing the discomfort of Western countries Western leaders uh and kind of enjoying their outrage I mean just

Listening or reading about some of that which he’s had to endure since he went back to Russia and this you know prison in in the Arctic Circle I mean some of it is almost kind of it’s it’s almost sort of cliche totalitarian I me I was

Reading a piece which said that he was being forced in the prison every single day to listen to an hour long or hour 40 minute long potin speech that they said they were going to play to him through his cell for educational purposes I mean

It I mean it’s all it’s almost sort of zat’s kind of big brother it’s it’s it’s it’s almost cliche actually the sort of state that Russ has become yeah you’re right I mean it’s demon demonstrative by the way am I allowed to to to to swear on your illustrious podcast believe me

We can’t control John soel so if he can do it you certainly can well I’m not a a political theorist as such but but I so you could describe the um kind of governing method of of PR’s Russia as ISM basically they just want to kind of

You and also show that they are doing that it’s it’s performative it’s it’s theatrical um and that they’ve always behaved this way I mean they don’t do subtle that those guys they want to show that they are Masters there the word in Russian called Kazan which means kind of

Landlord but they are the masters of the situation and they can dispose uh they they can make you superbly rich but if you disobey the criminon or show disloyalty they can make you poor uh and they can break you and ruin you um and there’s a sort of Vilan element as to

These guys I mean I remember um when I was covering the the trial of mik kakosi the Russian ol when I was still in in Moscow um and he was in a cage they’re very font of cages and uh his elderly father hobbled in on on a walking stick

Sat down on a chair and then the guards removed the chair so his octarian father had to stand it’s it’s it’s not just the The Tyranny and the cruelty it’s also the pettiness o of this regime which which I find very striking finally Luke I mean do you think he’s clearly I

Suppose he becomes a Marty now even more than he already was for certain elements of sort of Russian opposition so far as it exists I mean does he have will he have a legacy or will he just be will it his death make very little difference in

Terms of the security of the Putin regime yeah I mean I mean that’s kind of an interesting question whe whether actually he’s just a footlo in a in a long and dark history or whether he points the way to something something better if you if you remember that December

Who Who Rose up in the 1820s and actually their Revolt didn’t really go anywhere some of them were executed some of them ended up in Siberia uh and there was another long period of conservative um autocracy which went went on and on and on and then of course morphed into

The whole bvic horror um I I I fear that he will be more of a kind of bright bright spark that that is distinguished by enveloping Gloom I if that if that makes sense because for now the regime is is Rock Solid um they have turned Russia into this enormous kind of

War economy Putin thinks he can Prevail in Ukraine and grind out a victory uh and therefore this is you know for Putin this is kind of tidying up ahead of next month’s elections a and removing someone uh that that that he he really sort of personally Vally hated I

Mean as as Stalin said no man no problem and and now there is no man and no no no problem and I would I would wish that navali pointed the way to a better future but I fear he just confirms Russia’s terrible um and gruesome present Luke thanks so much

Really really insightful thanks so much for joining us thank you right that is it from all of us for this week but we couldn’t leave you without a brief update from our very own austral Asia correspondent Mr John soel I think it’s fair to say that there has been some

Acrimony bit of bad blood on team news agent this week with John feeling that Emily and I were being a little bit unkind to him as the week progressed well John has sent us I’m pleased to say another WhatsApp voice note this morning and I’m pleased to report that all seems

To been patched up and he hasn’t taken any of it to heart you totally sad miserable next week is going to be a disas because frankly I’m going to be there so you’re going to have nothing to talk about oh Monday morning is going to be an absolute cracker Emily sends her

Apologies for not finishing the show with us but you’ve got to remember it is a Friday she’s normally 10 to 12 PS down in pump house by now John Smith crabby since you were asking and John meanwhile while he’s high high in the sky quietly sozzled on the flight from hell but

Don’t feel too sorry for him believe me he only ever turns left remember you can catch up on all our shows from this week on global player send us story tips and feedback to news agents global.com thanks to our production team on the news agents Gabriel ridus Laura Fitzpatrick Georgia Foxwell Alex Barnet

Rory Simon Shane Fenley and Arvin badwell our editor is Tom Hughes it’s presented by Emily probably shouldn’t have fed my doger to Jean matless John oh I’m so sad they’re talking about me soal and me Lis goodle we’ll see you on Monday have a lovely weekend the news agents this is a global

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