Reading: Esther Dischereit together with Jonny Ball.
In 2023, Esther Dischereit created an exhibition in cooperation with Deutsche Bahn to honour the railroad worker Fritz Kittel. In 1944 and 1945, he hid her mother Hella and sister Hannelore, who as Jews were persecuted by the Gestapo and threatened with death in Germany under National Socialism. They were liberated by U.S. troops in 1945. Dischereit began to search for the family of the rescuer and found them in 2019. Fritz Kittel had not told his own family about his courageous act throughout his life.
Esther Dischereit’s literary response in 17 text pieces includes other found objects from the lives of her mother, sister, and Fritz Kittel, and they offer a dialogue with those who are now the daughters and sons or grandchildren. False information given at a registration office, illegal names and addresses … What do we read when we read these documents? What do we see when we look at these photos?
Esther Dischereit lives in Berlin, writes prose, poems, essays, and radio works. She is considered one of the most important voices of Jewish literature in Germany in the second generation after the Shoah. She was honoured with the prestigious Erich Fried Prize for her work in 2009. She was a professor at the University of Applied Arts in Vienna from 2012 to 2017 and held a chair in contemporary poetics at NYU in 2019. Among her most recent publications and projects Hab keine Angst! Erzähl alles. Das Attentat von Halle und die Stimmen der Überlebenden (Ed., 2020); Sometimes a Single Leaf (2020) and Flowers for Otello On the Crimes that Came out of Jena (2022) – both translated by Iain Galbraith, as well as Wer war Fritz Kittel, Exhibition 2023: Berlin / Frankfurt am Main / Chemnitz / Nürnberg.
Lecture recorded at Senate House, London
Tuesday, February 6, 2024 – 18:00
Images from the lecture, and other streaming links, are available on the Leo Baeck Institute London website: https://www.leobaeck.co.uk/events/special-events/who-was-fritz-kittel-german-railway-worker-decides-1933-2022
This lecture is a collaboration between the Leo Baeck Institute London and the Goethe-Institut London.
Poster photo credits: ©Abraham Pissarek, ©Katrin Hammer / Deutsche Bahn AG, ©Katrin Hammer / Deutsche Bahn AG
Good evening ladies and gentlemen my name is Joseph Cronin I’m be director of the Leo Institute London this evening we’re delighted to be hosting a talk in collaboration with the Gerta Institute London I think maybe the first but hope first of many and our speaker tonight is none other than the
Esteemed German Jewish writer and activist Esther dite um Esa dite is what you might call in German aish k um public figure uh a list of achievements in a career spanning four decades um is Legion and varied and I will restrict myself to uh mentioning just a few highlights um
Esther was born and grew up in Germany in the aftermath of the Holocaust uh um her mother was a Survivor we’ll hear more about that this evening um she studied in Frankfurt online uh and initially trained to be a teacher however due to her participation in the political arrest of
1968 she was prevented from teaching in public schools and she then worked as a types Setter in print shops whilst nurturing a literary Talent it was during the 1980s that she became a full-time writer and as since published across a range of genres novels collections of poems
Essays uh and she’s also written for theater and for radio um those of Works include the novel y TI known as hael published in 1988 Marin published in 1992 um the morning with the paper boy a collection of short stories published in uh 2007 and much else
Besides eser has been a fellowed at the Moses mlon Center for European and Jewish studies and writer and Residence at oand College at Conservatory in I think Ohio uh in 2009 she was awarded Austria’s prestigious era fre to prize for her outstanding contributions to literature as say poems meanwhile have appeared in
Publications around the world uh including in this newsp no z c the magazines udra in Poland elali in astina and proo in Colombia um so without further Ado please join me in welcoming s dis rides this evening is going to explore a subject of very personal residence who was tritz kit
Thought that it’s going to say a few words yeah good evening everybody the problem is we second speak first we had set it all on know what’s that uh maybe just to to to welcome you again from our side as my name is SP bman and I am the program director of G
Institute here in London and we had the privilege Shing already um a week ago at our uh premise if you miss that chance but tonight uh we have you and had another privilege that um I think a year ago um we had ured together through the exhibition that we will uh speak about
Today um by that time it was in the Berlin Museum of um transport a huge Museum where you have all these cool classes I’m sure there’s something similar in all that and your and there was your your exhibition and we to walk a little while because it will not let
Say on the front that been human that’s some of story that you might mention today and if you came here to hear a reading session I think I can tell you that um it will probably not be a reading session but more something like um something like happen the
Evening like um and you’re not doing this long I also say hello to you J B some PhD student from kangri from Jesus college kri is said right yeah um and um it happens by chance that the update of your PhD p and is has right so
Here’s than to all uh me thank you very much um Leo Back Institute for uh this cooporation and Senate house our first time here so enjoy the evening thanks thank you that’s yeah is know know to everybody thank you whether they Back Institute well in in one or the other
Way the Institute became invol in my which you might not know in long but I happen to have um a former student on my when I was teaching a VI for viar she did an internship at the newor Back Institute in New York and kept contact and then I
Start talk about R onstead of killer and all of a sudden she she reached out to me say listen I found some who did she did you know that your grandparents that on your story so so this enriched me surely very much getting to noral St I know before wife that’s K and
King in 2009 in I think you realize then we just had the celebration for the 85th Anniversary of the king ofs and took 19 a gr of the Kingdom transort kingom and their descendants and had the wish to travel to Europe and to see the
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Institute or as far as I saw it in Austria gerany and did not very succeed she doesn’t picture and um out of very principle reasons um she saw she thought and I thought it it should be um it should be something the German national raway or Japan should do should pay for
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I some lost Tre I on he might not have know that the two of them need it and I was always thinking he know it um and when the Wall came down I better access to fire you know and the again I saw his name mentioned in documents applications my turned
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Story because I have to know the story I mean it’s not my jointy to to say it’s really true I’m I’m not on Criminal Court yeah so I I can I choose to um to go this way that he where I can be much more free to articulate thoughts
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Because exhib itself is not available for you now uh but present with bunch of the 17 pieces you don’t do that all you really very very C to it and um yeah so having this a little bit B what was sliding front of your eyes um you can follow now the
SPs which came out searching for it’s kill the person at the time no one of us knew and we never get Tom all and text number one reading back for study at every page Waste Paper entries in the diary for a previous year you probably couldn’t get
One for the current year the page you keep wondering about is this page we not about and J of my mother and my sister rest all that correct my mother gave he saying in conversation from name why he do this why is it his head ising is he writing this St in the
M stud PO is he writing it down in the St the mother if worned with and did she know then was she part of after all and because the men was to denounce when there last name a from from one of those refug but how does he know about him what’s this
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Par is sping her th laughing with te cup all work out the table clo there’s another one ping May X now say last we I was here where the book I is R light hor personal station your this look like it wasn’t it’s not and immediately said and father never under those circumstances
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Casses Soul equals life Spirit feeling sexuality the multiplicity of life but also it’s interior mutation the remaking of the person 14 days of high drive always alternate with the m male Rhythm the 23-day cycle compasses the male drive for Action the P primitive Rhythm the 18-day
Cycle it has nine days of high drive and then nine days of low Drive between the high and the low we find a minus curve the half periodic day and in contrast between low and high 0 point I.E the beginning of a new period the stronger minus curve the periodic day I’m
Sure in the ad Pages page 20 health and sickness fertility conception Love and Marriage I count for the church from right to left we from left to right that brings to M way that Mak expect with or without words whether was encoded you already know it l your ch Tex number
Four my mother is sitting at the kitchen table on the table legs the paint has flaked off in places the white has yellowed the table had eight legs so she could Stow the dirty dishes inside the embedded wooden frame which concealed an enamel Bowl this inset could be pulled out and
Pushed back like a drawer she often sat here drinking a cup of coffee the paper filters were made by Mita sometimes together with voud vad was the best friend from school of my sister Hanah my oldest sister who had left home already and was studying languages somewhere far
Away when the two of them talked sometimes I was supposed to go out and well play maybe I stayed standing behind the half closed door or sat on the floor in the corridor it must have been on one of these days that I first had the name Fritz Kell text number
Five I visited the state Archive of B the files of the Berlin Brandenburg Department of Finance were held there 1990s after the fall of the W was my research in the course of academic interest no it was personal very personal I was fulfilling elen’s wish like my mother she was from Berlin
And like my mother she had survived as a Jew her friend Felisa hadn’t she had asked me to ser for the truth about her fate day after day I had come back getting bought down in those files a caretaker denounced a Jewish Family a neighbor let it be known that she was
Interested in the flat whenever they would go away at last and yes the electricity company cut off the supply sir are you making progress the arabist asked I looked at him he let me make copies I came back wanted to leave never come back again halfway out facing the door I
Turned back once again and said but if you could find these papers then my grandparents must have a file here too and my mother and her first husband and my oldest sister the child of that marriage I said then names he looked them up in a big fat
Book they’re listed here in the book of the Jews of Berlin they’re dead I said no they’re not dead I can witness that the arabist said that meant he could delete their names from the book of the murdered Jews of Berlin I said yes he said when have I even once been
Able to do this before in all these last decades actually never he fetched a pen text number six the one room tailoring Workshop a woman was employed to work there a chisan when my grandparents have to go into hiding she takes them in with her unfortunately this working woman is
Sometimes as they say not right in the head then she shouts obscenities about Hitler up and down the stairwell that’s why they couldn’t stay there wrote my grandfather I can’t remember whether that was the Leo report in New York Catalina had found for me that that somebody called the gape
And Drew their attention to the family in my grandparents had to get a away I would like to know her name the woman’s name is not recorded anywhere text number seven Sonia’s story puzzled me for a long time at Thanksgiving 10 years ago at my nieces in Chicago we were sitting around
The table and and waiting for the turkey to be served when the phone ran someone picked up and passed the receiver to Hann order it was one of those devices out of fashion now which always sits on a charging station it’s for you I heard her irritated phrases
Fragments of words oh my goodness that’s wonderful and where I and you was New York I did believe this but still she said she had to H to hang up the turkey the family and hung up who was this person in their 80s from New York she was talking
To she was part of the household says hanura and nothing more there are photos of a girl of about eight playing with a little three-year-old girl Sonia was a child who’d been taken into their Care by my grandparents bold and Rosa her parents lived in zoral a good way from
Berlin they traded in textiles and were hardworking business people both of them from the end of 1938 the children could no longer attend State schools the parents gave their children also including Sonia’s brother Hines over to foster parents the brother that way the sister to my grandparents in
Berlin who looked after her well and made sure she could attend the Jewish Primary School nearby English was her favorite subject the school was in the synagogue in Rika and Sonia could walk there from the grandparents home until she changed schools later and took the Tran she came home about five after a
Long school day Sonia’s son lives in New York with his mother Oliver found him found them both he’s forever finding undiscovered members of the family where was Sonia when our grandparents went to Legal Jay says he knows his grandmother EA Goldberg had come to Berlin and taken little Sona away with
Her when I came out of school she was there we have to go right now Sonia didn’t want to asked why her mother said she’d tell her once they got to the railway the schools were closed by the national socialists in 1942 Sonia says she was sitting on a
Farm in zoral by her mother she has fun memories of our grandparents and then that Journey that journey to Zoro in 1943 where mother and child Hela and Han hanur Zacharias in December register under false names as living at schat with either Goldberg but can’t stay there so they deregister then at
Zid with the shalad family then in heis at lared B with Fritz kle did they get to know Fritz kle through the gold Bears we send this on your photos a photo of britz kle when he was younger her son Jay says he doesn’t want to upset her whenever she’s asked about those
Times she gets sick I ask her about her favorite teacher in the school in rikasa her favorite subject and whether she has a best friend her son will pass these questions on to her in English he has an ger he will do it he says when he thinks it will be all
Right you can talk much than not night did the talk watch like his teats and quiet man who likes hiss and quiet himself but this watch he always s it on him did you only wear it of the Gold Award with the CH I had to ask more was where surely to
Be taken work with them every day with this little rainway station of building where the ENT of but death probably nowadays no CH of bres for home around M day and a bodyful 6 years old she left and send off on all with a large Bo ready
Sh with SC for weing birs bu theide we CLE away the and found to fox saying backwards an old shov as old as the into our house and rway Flash the C the iceable when he arrived here5 the chice of Liv and already grown or to me and murder this job
Was shut on Lo contactor of the P it’s WR about sh no contactor then what was it she was loading in the last weeks of the war why would he transfer me to this spot on ver I never Rec be the said and cen’s mother sweep out
The bed on the ground like all here the part of the period go would be given raring you near near M until when until when and what until the that could arise again from the dead and dig it up then me then you R hard M and sectoring the an
Company in their only way but people were still needed to dispatch Friends check loads and labeling and release them onto the Ved were Ed on Words let K wrote in his notebook war that way the war will end more quickly instead of taking a back when we on there Factory security people came
Straight up than Mar from the M of P November 9th 2021 the first time ever the C we see such like during the about 38 there were attacks on the last 7 in the B the B themselves had already been sled to war br especially since the nors have
Be expelled from State primary school and had to attend that hased Jew CL in B during the PO y’s shop was attacked the do wiow and his play and the walls around the cour you B was taken into protective C and then by to the B by
De 1938 after he came back was theing R Frank where he was at on 29 large 194 possibly is a consequence concentration andman to in gal custody he was buried in the chwi sever children in bti his wife and the two daughters rap to the gings and
Died of the Jewish people were born and in with following di dur the National Socialist period you 1880 1930 1895 1928 1890 yeah 19 27 1900 1895 1899 1893 bades 1924 next no better than it’s import sent for victims of political racial and religious persecution certification
The above name is a member of grou of persons who were by at the past years please support the owner of this signification for to shanon and help this is a paper my mother received what do the papers look like that people today who have managed to save themselves receive
Are there any use to those who receive them what use hopefully they get such papers text number 12 we travel back there again I’ve all forgotten the bunker how could I forget the bunker it was a sunlit day and Ana had said what are you after there there’s nothing there
Still I’d sprayed my foot and my daughter had to help me jump over the little ditch that separated the Hill from the road little bushes Nettles and thly Rambles we’d gone the wrong way we went back again this is where it must have been there was nothing to remember the place
As if it was now disowned a couple of meters beyond the place Nam sign we looked through railings downwards this must have been the exit once buried under soil thrown over hard to believe that the locals had been assembled here probably pressed close together it was like a dungeon
Now her K had legalized them had the two of them declared husband and wife and my sister hanora his daughter that has to be the reason why they went into the bunker with everyone else to stay outside would have attracted attention everyone wanted to find safety from the ones who were
Coming the American troops were already Audible The Tracks of the tents were churning through the soil she must have got herself and her child up close to the bunker door pushed forward through the others when she heard them getting closer so she told it she managed to open the bunker door
Behind her the people were Whispering no no the enem is out there don’t go she took the child 8-year-old Hannah laa firmly by the hand and pulled her outside with her the child was scared of the noise of the approaching tents I can’t see what direction they came
From just the neat road now a fast well-built Road no signs of broken tag she must have pulled her child more tightly to her said no those aren’t our enemies they’re from where Aunt Elsa went T number 13 vinar the people called the bankard where a sign is attached in the name of
The successor company car and S telling those without permission that they must keep out seven poach mines in Hessa slave laborers and concentration camp prisoners was how it was says the calmed s media spokesman no mention of the people worked to death underground who while they were still
Alive were brought up briefly once a fortnight into the daylight like dogs and then taken back down they lived below ground and then death marches was how it was how it was says the media spokesman nothing precise is known sadly sadly no signboard no clue no Memorial an internal study we’re not
Allowed to see the water the river veran is cingo that was us says the media spokesman the miners National F song thetiger Lead they will sing that on the way down and on the way up at get togethers and their families too a safe keeps watch down there she keeps them safe they
Say sacred mass of mining ships and then look Al the ster lead refrain look coming up that’s traditional here once Karen used to have that fear that fear of the women for their men if something happens Underground some grow old early Manfred refused to go down not for
Anything in the world he says but the money draws the young men now women too shift bonuses Castle Hamburg the 26th of October 2021 results for the third quarter of 2021 exceptional raw materials price environment favors strong financial results vent Hal Europe’s leading independent natural gas and oil Enterprise has
Published figures for business operations in the third quarter of 2021 isn’t that a bit I mean back then what back then led by a prominent industrialist of the third R well it was the same everywhere when I met Guy Stan I knew nothing about the huge import of this output for the
Wall he’s a professor now was able to save himself as a 16-year-old tries to get his parents out fails he keeps explaining again and again how he actually might have succeeded he’s in Detroit n then he talks about the Richie boys he was part of that Tru I take the DVD back to
Germany after watching the film I understood that he had come to Germany as part of the Allied army they spoke German they’d operated behind the line at D-Day and then afterwards They carried out in interrogations here very close to here he was stationed in B hafeld so he was among those my mother
And sister walked towards straight away within days she would was with them she’d learn English believed in The Liberation here it is on paper professional translator I write a mail to Guy Stan you liberated my mother Hela and my sister Hanna La guy replies you made my day text number 16 Aunt
Ela who had been removed from her job in the raistar offices as unarian under the Civil Service law early arm Aunt Ela who I saw on a motorbike always on holiday somewhere with women friends with an exceptional reference from the director of the heag she had never stopped trying after
She played to secure entry visas for her brother and his family for the United States for Bolivia she paid and paid and set money by Securus Roots gathered information earned little by herself in Exile as a secretary knew that her mother her aunt wrotes letters to the tracing
Service would send packets to toinen no answer no wrote to these and to those begged threatened paid in vain and when the child was still no more than three years old when there was still hope yet it was elza who from somewhere from Switzerland from England sent her something for her birthday with
Address for the girl girl and a toy so that’s the way they walked towards the American TS and said we’re Jews help us the handwritten note has been kept written by the commander marching through there it declares the two to be under the protection of the Liberation Army they moved to philipstown under
Their real name for the first time and in their own flat Paradise began said my sister I’m so much Esther and Johnny for fascinating thought provoking presentation and we have some time for questions and obviously those of you in the room should agree to raise your
Hands if you’re watching on Zoom if you could CL type your question into the chat and we will read it out there is a microphone that can work its way around the yes thank you so much um I was going through the zoom oh yeah thank you so much for the for the
Beautiful reading as well I was really interested at the beginning when you talked about resisting I can’t remember if you said the musealization or the museumize I was really curious to hear about the exhibition that you worked on at the trans Transport Museum in Berlin and how you were thinking about this in
In relationship to curation could you repeat the last second were you working as a curator on the exhibition yeah so was as you were working with different curatorial strategies were you thinking about this very problem or this tension about the way in which the museum objectifies history or historical subjects
Yeah you heard us leaving the text on the Jewish people in a for example and I oh but it’s do you could think differently to this why we including this in the exhibition why mentioning this it’s about the skittle and to oral I no we go to know to this here this
Place and of course we need to know what at the time they were what what already was was happening here so I cannot exclude it I will not never exclude this now you may think it doesn’t belong to the story I think it belong so I existed
That this becomes power and also videos that when memory start went or um other um other questions like if if I talk about The Liberation yeah um we have the way way to think like the were T like describe soldiers on and maybe maybe no I’m not going for this kind of
Images we saw for for ages and I insisted to fill a whole dra door with um hershy CH in the BR one very dark because this is with the chocolate and it with so for me this was totally important and the whole draw fil with this Choate and people who are putting
It out or welcome to take it or not whatsoever so we have refill it a bit with both it’s also a little bit Act um another question you saw this Al there on the screen who is the paining the and um this is the very peaceful
Vage peaceful but at the same time it’s also mentioned it’s an AR so it’s who for part in the varation often was neglect of l so looking like this um so in the with with literary literature text I I was able to press um what is is has already taken place in
Between and after this waves of V and and initation and and public disc discover and in a way also capturing object and the people who were the ones originally but it’s not so press yeah and uh what what already um was was in G my li because of this and not because I
Just stick close to to the objects of material what the people say and it’sa insisted all the time yeah so um it it when this text I can um also it say um that my work is not to be done make the broken story complete so I
Expose the hope the not knowing the the mission and were documents by no one but I think I did not really understand after for example then one document it isn’t here my mother also it was person from the Jewish organization is coming to her because she was getting embar she
Couldn’t B that so he was taking n what she was saying and there is one sentence she never ever repeated anywhere else it was the sentence also mentioned the go and then saying uh but often people who who were hey at get I mean they were blood made ads
They were exped ads so and often I did not have only to pay material I had to pay also in material so and for for ages I overlooked the sentence yeah and then all of a sudden I start it again and I said okay I just Dre recently WR the
Book by Emmanuel B my way from uh the Congo to Europe and he describes his life as this someone who was fighting for democracy in the Congo and it was persecuted and H fre through the desert and he’s describing what happens where he crosses borders and he is accompanied
By other women who also are of the flight and his describing um how he was full of Shing describing that you saw what the women especially we can PR and we can wait through and qu about and I said okay this is so currently so important I will put this document my
Mother’s document in the drawer yeah um because there is this angle to situation of women on flight today at the border and border so and so in a different aspect I try to um to to make this possible to think of today if the opening in C for example
Where the exhibition was open at the Smart Museum uh I reach out to or he said something like s in society City and uh our can is very much suffering from right wing and all I I wanted to just to if those who are closed the great States also through the
Exhibition and I reached out to them and two women from Afghanistan I think when we saw the place in the Tex where it was written the schools were closed and no one could go SCH anymore and immediately I think today wasan wom um two women from Afghanistan
They had to go up and take the microphone and fall for first time and and as B what what happened to them after they or reach Germany and and how this them it was to to deal with what bureaucracy neglecting the real names of of the children and what so um and
Um this event also was integrated in the Jewish C and the organizes lat said well they had never thought of this way to talk about the PA and what what happened the result was the um the woman who was the uh for the the president of the Jewish of community in
Kids she was there and other Recon were also there so at least these two women now got on with the same thing to do all yeah and um so I I reach out to to different as aspect or how did you how do you talk about
Someone you don’t know so I follow the family narration but they still yeah then I thought okay well here it was so important what he worked for yeah his work but we didn’t have BS actually where you were seen working yeah but what we have is UC for
By J R you saw that this Henry sing carrying the the stuff so this was the kind of work he need to do so you get an idea what he he stay I was like didn’t he was he was not turning a lot never and it and and also those questions this
Page 20 yet I think we are full of the idea that there is a group of resist the gr yeah and ideology maybe communistic maybe socialistic maybe maybe religious wise Christian so the gr cond do the rism the world is strong it didn’t work there was no PO it
Wasn’t yeah and and although you can know it fli away from time to time again thing raising the question what does it mean to type responsibility the personal responsibility his colleagues did not do it they were in M involved in the deportation yeah I je money with this and no one of them
Was ever accused or brought to try no one really no one so and at the very very same time this man we do not know anything about him El he he wasn’t the feminist says no he was not religious no he Rich he was not into some
Ideology he just did it we don’t even know whether they like each other yeah he had a fiance at the the fiance knew that he took in the to so the fan did not come with so he took the responsibility and is all the time fing about I said and
These are messages in my f of today of today and hopefully I remember yeah come this way down so start with Frank it was yeah thank you Esther for your really um inspiring talk just like all your writing um it leaves one with the with the right questions I think um I
Have a question about the the practicality of the exhibition as I haven’t seen it yet how did you um Bridge visually that you actually had two narratives about Blitz Skittle if I understood correctly the one that that was in your mind that you were exploring and the one that
The family had you touched on that a little bit now but how did you translate that into the exhibition space and um second question would be how did you work with the footage because you mentioned that um Gad Chik was was filming um did you turn this into um
Footage for the exhibition or did you turn it into a documentary what what happened with that yeah audio visual material yeah um and I on to direct as well um the exhibition included 10 pieces of short videoos stb so three minutes up to five you could press the
Button and then decide what do you want to see you want to see how family members and we are traveling sh looking for ex exactly the address where in up so one thing second there is an interview with my NE the a son a son of my eldest sister and he is talking
About what he fell when he first saw the files and open it up and how how they got to him also an interesting question um then there is the interview only on N the daughter that’s ph’s daughter and um let’s and the daughter and I were
Talking about what did she know and what does she not know and what is her approach forward and another one is this spinder is completed from my daughter so this the third imation she visited all white herself all places of refugee she knew us in berin and photographed them and
Made their own work alab Fally out work St only something seeing seeing today yeah well how it looks today you go there you stay in front of something you know something in the past was there but it’s not it’s not spoken about yeah you just see it and uh and there very very
Important if found Fage then being in his wanted to do and we read about my sister and this was full s and six and she did a lot of interviews with her but she never released the movie Sor just work and G ship was able to find her was
Able to convince her to contribute these pieces and astonishingly for all of us my sister extens she talks about Mr ker she never did this uh in front of us yeah but she did it so this is part now of the exhibition toward of course Very to me also very um important because
Um for me it’s a document proving the um Integrity of Mage I wouldn’t have done the whole thing if I would have had any doubt about and yeah and the way she’s talking the way she’s mentioning him for clear this was all very very peaceful and very careful and
Now word about he of this L out some of this suay so she could meet other children she enjoyed it sure but so I mean did I miss question the lady no I would best what you did sorry okay um as one who who actually uh has
Seen your exhibition I can say that you can also read it besides this personal story that you’re talking about mainly about the role of the German Railway during um the second world War uh and about um its role in in this death Machinery of the Holocaust um and you
Said that um your co-curator actually was a historian from do Shaban and my question is um uh was there any point during your curatorial process where you had the impression um that deutan wants you to display certain things or not to display certain things in a way um and I
Will avoid the word of whitewashing because the documents you can see are are terrible if they are invoicing for example the ministry for the transport of 7,000 Jews from from Frankfurt to to to Minsk or whatever but um was there was there do you have the impression
That they um in a way um want to control it at the end because they partly financed it as far as I know no well yeah yes and no I mean they there was a a vivid interest to to show they they would not have want to be with pass but
How hand do this how this U for example that that that no one was ever accused for letting me to the suggestion to say okay what person I me wi with accuse let’s show uh what was turned into the trial and it’s it’s it’s s much this is for example the trial
Against the perpetrators of the so called National Socialist underground cries recently in 2013 the it’s like MTH and but this guy was like this so I said okay let’s show this and the end he got away with it um pretending house with and then 25 years
The longer and this would be only one ever brought up in this position and this means of course that after 45 maybe the rail workers could go back to their jobs and is also needs that corporate identity work that was course one would know from the other that he and keep running this
And this F so no one broided one um we had Arguments for watch for example this thing with to why why do I want to incl the head angs I couldn’t discuss it for me was I would not be a not or there is another draw I’ve totally um put
Together the stories of com of those who did not live so the whole draw is completed with the and difference a lot of difference about this why do you know it and true they made it and the great parents also made it they not the story yeah this the
Story is at the same time these others did not and and I’m not going to tell just this this that heartbreaking story on so stand out they belong they belong in the story of the to and they still belong to my story my doct story they W get away
It’s just they don’t away they could but we had that huge differences about that and and how to um how to describe the story of I was not interested in when was the person born where did she go to which job when did he get married and how many show he have and
Whatever it is no way I’m exp um thought this for me it’s totally boring in was very good guy so um and of course I insisted how important these BS of literature are um because I think otherwise you you you cannot even um have enough to judge
Yeah for the question of Integrity it is there of course of course I want no of course I would yeah we had a lot of differences about this which on one and belong to the fact that as historian was used to to see other other objects more
Important and uh what I also did not the rual was that there was the Deep wish to to end three other right of other why didn’t do that yeah they were they all all and there was way work I mean what is the the Mage there were lot of all I mean it’s
So true so this is there were surely T tension right can and and also this problem German Rood company um in a way yeah of course can can they Lo it it’s um is it’s it’s a bman saying we come to T with the but on the other hand
They now applo more than 30,000 people and even if you only said of the um as effect and efforts within uh the employment uh growth it’s it’s sagul yeah they all got to read it they all got to um the the education that people were in education with ro there they could go
There and um and it was just January the end of January the in mil it the museum thean and at the weekend there were ,000 L and it was not too F us to have it often in only the interior icing B raway something but on the other hand there were people coming
Which did not come because of chopping yeah they they cause this fascination of um yeah machine B Machine yeah but and and yeah it’s um and John was also there the me and it function like this you had you got this 8 folder yeah and um the
Text where um it related to some objects so if you pull out of drawer it might say on the side number 140 then you go and look where 4 which door and then you will um organize your own little work all at this and by the way I like to make sure
That this translation was done byman once once we have C uh which to be and um yeah and sure that is I would um have given even L than for your attention to very um yeah you have to work it out in such coll for an artist for an artist it’s
Not very funny to work but s sh they were they were just not us to to s in in this kind was decisions of decision making and also practical I mean l would set up the beds where the extion would be shown already two years in advance at
Least but they were huge she have a lot of money oh should they put it as 4 they find the place but it’s maybe not the best they yeah but yeah and I also be around back to your question that The cture Spook let and then publ only about my son only
Abouts they they are in there this song they wanted to do they wanted to leave out the lature leave out the whole Sur and from Frid speaks for lot but the CEO of was there and he gave a speech at the opening and then it’s almost a year ago so I didn’t quite
Remember but he I think he mentions like when he was talking about P he mentioned or something like that and the saying saying s very about had the got that for them it was a good secret for me it was totally about just for cous not theories about
His know character all research which I could which we could found is present there’s no more and my daughter lady was the one took all the shine 45 men and they and and no he ised so anti to compare with other railro workers it’s wonderful yeah and what’s maybe I like
To add um also at the opening of the exib there was not this idea that some from febrary it was the percentag Flying for German Parliament you know where with work company but they thought the next time the exhibition was inham and in and all of then h
Yeah the last station in leading by Sy Sy all am also D to see which I thought yeah but they did a th this way yeah is do we know that I mean prepare the FL of those when North far and then go up me set back been you know especially ritualized
Set by the way get sign two of them are and um if if someone likes to get hold of son of the images they can just get that here I I prepared this for an event where we could not even F this because there was no sleep and thought bring it over like
Half so I was just see are there any questions I will Zoom chat okay well no we are justed time so thank you again yes for her wonderful performance this evening thank you for your questions we have some drinks and refreshments afterwards if you go down the corridor and turn right through the
Long Hall is just at the back hope to join you there shortly but please join me again in thank you back