English Rugby Needs THIS | Rugby Pod with Courtney Lawes

English Rugby Legend Courtney Lawes joins Goodey and Big
Jim in this weeks podcast. They discuss Lawes’ future, how Rugby can’t shy away from what it is and what England need to do to become champions again.

Listen to the Full Episode 🎧 http://bit.ly/3wdKIkb

0:00 Rugby Money
8:30 Selling Rugby
14:00 Englands New Gameplan
19:20 England v Wales
31:00 Back-Row Possibilities

Okay courtly I don’t know if you’re going to reveal all you don’t have to but because we are not mainstream media press do you know what you’re doing next year or not there’s a few room as well ask him he’s friend of the show have you have you gotten your you

Don’t even make you don’t need to tell us the decision but it’d be great if you did uh no no no um it’s it’s still kind of in the working to honest like I’ve got a fair idea but um we’re still kind of working through it um the the thing

Is like uh I’m a Saints boy you know I’m I’m Saints through and through and um you know all things being perfect I’d stay um but at the same time there’s there’s opportunities elsewhere as of course there is always going to be so we’re working through it as a as a

Family and and then uh you know we’ll make our decision and and you know do what is best for us um first and foremost this time um but um but yeah we we’ll see what it’s still with cat talks and do you need any advice on bri lard

Or anywhere around there because I mean I happen to play there for two seasons yeah I heard you I heard you played there for a bit yeah what was it like telling you the truth tell theuth truth it’s a lovely place when if you win which wasn’t that often when we were

There um it’s very industrial I lived in a village called s faral just outside and it was nice but it’s quiet so if you want a load of family time it’s good and no doubt a load of your own uh but it’s not too long it’s not melier

It’s not Paris uh but it was good there’s skiing about an hour away you can ski there as well um so yeah mate good spot good spot Simon Gillum massive shout out to him as you might know him Courtney I don’t know have you have you

Spoken to Simon Gillum who’s the the big boss man at brief uh brilliant bloke yeah of course yeah yeah yeah I spoke spoke to him obviously I spoke to a few clubs as I said I’ve got to keep Mar this this probably be my last contract oh million

Um um so yeah got again got to make the right call but thanks thanks for you yeah we’re trying to push that but look I suppose you can maybe speak quite frankly about it now that you are out of the England setup I don’t know what your opinion is you’re obviously losing the

Other captain of the club in Lewis ludlam as well he’s off to France to play we’re seeing Joe Marchin he’s talking about coming back from Paris Henry arendall just to kind of name a few right that the draw of the top 14 Faz well is going as well obviously is

The headline name but you can see the draw right something that we’ve spoken about as a current player playing in the Premiership as an English Legend slightly different for you but what is the draw is it the obvious one is it the financial opportunity as well

As the kind of change of scenery maybe just give us an insight into what the lads are all saying yeah I mean look I can’t speak for anybody else’s motivations like for me it was really clear that I wanted to be in England I wanted to be playing for

England um I I certainly over the last kind of five years have been I’ve been you know really uh trying to hone in on them them kind of hund 100 caps just to just to say that you you’ve done something like that and you’ve achieved uh that that

Level of um of you know success I guess for your for your for your country so um it it was never really it was never really um I’m you know in my plans to go abroad before um I kind of achieved that and and now being older again um to be

Honest it’s it’s very much to do with Financial Security after after I finish playing like um I think it’s you know it’s one of them things I’m not saying we we obviously get paid quite well to play rugby but the toll on your body um and when you compare it to other sports

What they get paid for for obvious reasons uh I’m not saying they don’t deserve to um you know it’s it’s it’s it’s mad to think about somebody or there’s players that have played for England 50 you know to 100 times that you know I’ve been the top of their game

For years and years and once it’s all over they have to go back and get another job yes I do so but with that Courtney it’s a really interesting point right and it’s interesting listening to you talk about it because the way that you speak about it is the way that I

Don’t think you should speak about it you’re apologizing there’s almost like there’s an and there’s an embarrassment from players to say oh these other sports get paid that I would to speak about the game and I think that you Lads I think that the players not me the players should be getting paid

Significantly more I know and goody we have this kind of debate around salary caps and we understanding the kind of where the game is as a whole but I’m looking at it from the output of the L right C and you put your head in the spokes for many many years right and

You’ve put given your body to the game and the finances around that are sign significantly different to any other sport on the planet that where you have to put your body through the same thing and it’s great I don’t think you should apologize to be like well what are the

Sports get like I think we need to push the the dial on that and that is why Japan and that is why the top 14 is so interesting for the players now right do you speak Japanese Courtney are you learning Japanese he eats Japanese he eats Japanese and he speaks

Japanese but you know what I mean I don’t like I do find we’re all apologizing for well I’m not anymore I’ve just gone fully on it yeah no no totally I totally I totally get it but I suppose the fact is we can’t financially afford to play our players that much uh

You know the clubs aren’t in a position to do it and that is something that we need to kind of um develop Saudi Saud money bring in the Saudis well whatever whatever form it takes honestly we need to we need to build rugby up we need to make it the

Product it can be um and therefore the product people want to people want to buy people want to get involved in um and people want to watch and it can be that 100% can be a sport that people you know throw money at um but at the minute

We haven’t got that part right we haven’t we’re not producing what people want to see so that has to change and you know when that changes then we can start demanding you know the money that we should really be earning as as you know professional players of this

Caliber and what we put our bodies through 100% that Courtney I mean everyone has a life plan um and you’re going through yours at the minute for what you’re saying is going to probably be your last contract what does post rugby look like for you in your head do

You want to get stay in the game because obviously we’re talking about the future of the game here do you want to stay in the game from a coaching perspective are you got different business interests that you want to get away it some people want to stay in it because they love it

Some people want to keep one foot in and do other stuff and some people want to get as far away from it as possible where where do you sit courts in terms of postc career plans um I’m definitely I’m definitely a kind of one fitting

Kind of guy like I’m not I don’t love watching rugby um like or any sport honestly it’s just not I like playing I like being competitive um I like being being an amongst it kind of thing but the only the only sport competitive sport I watch um that often is probably

UFC um but having said that I do because I’ve kind of accumulated so much experience um I think I’ve learned an awful lot about the game I do kind of want to um give back in a way I guess so I I thought about doing some kind of

Mentoring stuff and uh working with young prospects through different school systems or and or um you know clubs um because we get a lot of aalib ads that that come in nowadays and you it have been the same in your in your day as well whereby they’ve got all the all the

Athleticism all the talent all the skills you could ask for but just not you know they they’re not thinking about the game how they should be um and they’re not developing as players how they should be just because they’re they’re not they’re not focused on the right things they’re not thinking about

The right things and and stuff like that so and I’m also really interested in in snc and uh you know recovery nutrition all that kind of stuff as well um so I think i’ i’ you know i’ I’d like to work quite closely with some good good young

Players and try and develop them as quickly as possible um and and and obviously uh work on their kind of longevity in the game which has been one of the biggest things of of my career probably yeah I’m a massive UFC fan as well Courtney like it’s a sport that

I’ve followed for years producer Rob we go back and forth on different things the the biggest thing and the biggest difference between I would say the UFC and Robin there’s loads obviously different sports right I completely get that but is how Unapologetic they are about marketing yeah yeah I un L you

Know you going to say yeah I know I know but it’s an obvious thing to say isn’t it Courtney it almost feels like like we’ve played against each other for years you’re still playing playing the game you’re an incredible athlete but even going back to you like kind of

Apologizing about the money the UFC and other sports and the the super balls just happened over the weekend the glitz the Glamour the Carnage they embrace it right and I think in order for our game to move forward that is the space that we need to LEAP into you know what I

Mean like there is that kind of you you open up a press conference I know it must be difficult you all sat there with Steve and it’s kind of you’ve got the the the there who were writing the Articles no disrespect I mean not many people reading the Articles these days

Because they would consume it in a different way but just letting your air down and just saying you know what like we’ve got whoever it is Scotland at the weekend and we’re going to pull the pants down you know we’re going to go out there and we’re going to [ __ ] him up

As in at what point do we get to that as opposed to just saying well you know hopefully we get a game and we just want to it’s a diff it is it’s a difficult shift and it’s like any sport until we go down that route group and someone

Does it and someone goes all in and says says it how it is then we’re going to be kind of stuck in that kind of void of you can’t say anything you can say anything because what was it like as Captain Courtney were you given like we

Were back in the day of sheet of paper and saying like these are the key messages make sure you get them out there and don’t say this and don’t talk about that uh yeah of course you get them them kind of them kind of messages it’s yeah

You’ll get what Steve wants or whoever the coaches at the time what they want to push and and also they’re probably going to want to talk about this and we don’t want to go in that that direction kind of thing and you know I think um I

Think what the USC has obviously got going for them in and in their athletes is they you know they’re very American so they’re culturally very different to us anyway in that in that respect um and and um from my point point of view as a skipper knowing the motivation you can

Draw from a headline if somebody gives it to you you don’t you also don’t want to you know put your foot in it that way because I know the Australia tour um that we won the last couple of tests they were they were telling us what they

Were going to do to us it’s just all motivation for us and you know it can really it can really uh really make a difference that kind of stuff so I I’m not I don’t think we need to even go down that this on an individual route

But I think we just as a sport as you know the people in up top need to be less apologetic less scared about what rugby is it’s a hard game it’s a tough game it’s for tough men it’s a dangerous game and people like that that’s why they’re like watching it it’s exciting

It’s exciting it’s not football where you know they’re going to pass it around for a bit and then there’s a bit of excitement this is a game where you can get a hit any point in the game you can get a line break you know all kinds of

Stuff turnovers there’s so much exciting going on in rugby just lean into it stop apologizing um you know for for people getting hurt and and all this kind of stuff because as long as we know what we’re going into as players as long as we understand the

Dangers of it then it’s up to us to participate in it do you know I mean um and and you know like there’s UFC fighters there’s there’s boxers there’s all kind of mountain climbers you know uh free solo and all that kind of stuff people understand the dangers but

They’re still willing to go through it because it’s their choice do you know what I mean so um yeah I I think that that’s the route we need to kind of go go down where by the people up top just need to stop saying this is a game that

Anybody can play yes that no they’re say it’s a game everyone can play it’s not anybody any anybody can play rugby from any any background any any shape or size can play rugby but not everybody can um and and it’s about time we we stopped apologizing for it being a game where

Not everybody can actually do this not everyone has the git for it not everyone wants to get that’s and that’s the cell isn’t it that’s what we speak about like and I’m with you like you’re almost regurgitating I see Life mate because the tagline of rers for everyone the

Inclusivity part of that I’m same with you just to kind of reiterate what what courtley saying yeah like you can like you can walk into a ruby Club any Walk of Life any shape and size but the biggest shift for me was at the World Cup when I was pitchside for them

Quarterfinal games and I was like this is absolute chaos Gladiators and it was and we always speak about the Gladiators and doing that and you know back in my day when we were doing and it felt like that man it’s different now the power and the speed and the size and there’s

Not an ounce of body fat on these players at the top level now they are the the most athletic human beings walking the planet and with that comes a value right and with that comes a commercial value and we haven’t found that commercial value yet and you look

At the Six Nations all the stadiums are sold out that needs to transfer onto the pitch in my opinion when you look at it but again it’s a story for another day we’re going down a bit of a rabbit hole but yeah what was it like Courtney on

Saturday being there because I Courtney was at twiking him you were working the corporate Hospitality Suites weren’t your courts but the big one we we’ll come back to that what was it like postmatch in the Chang room did it feel a bit odd were you looking around and

Obviously it’s the same Lads a lot of the same Lads that you just played with at the World Cup they like [ __ ] hell what’s he doing in here he’s gone is it All Good Vibes yeah yeah it was good vibes man like I spoke to Genji in the week

A little FaceTime with him to see how he was doing and making sure that cuz he’s obviously coming back from injury I wanted to know how he was and that so but he’s doing well he was I may come through um I was like if the boys

Allowed me that I’d love to come through kind of thing so yeah I went I went into the change rooms after and it’s it’s it’s strange when you’re when you’re not in it because you know I honestly and I’m not going to be able to I haven’t really thought about

This since since I was in the changing room um and I don’t think I’m going to be able to kind of contextualize how exactly I was feeling but it’s it’s a very different visit in the changer in being a fan to an extent you know and um and knowing that it

Doesn’t it’s not on me to to sort out what’s you know the problems or or I don’t have to review the what the game and stuff going on and and and that’s the obviously the first time in 14 years I’ve been in that change room where

That’s not the case um I haven’t got to worry about um what we need to fix or what we can carry on improving going forward and stuff like that so it was quite kind of freeing I guess would would be a good I felt quite free and

And and unencumbered um by being in there uh which is not not normally the case obviously and did you enjoy the pre-match the corporate hospitality and speaking I don’t think so I’m going to say no I don’t want to speak for him but you might have a different answer

Uh you know what I don’t I don’t actually mind it like look it’s it’s not uh the the annoying things about it and there’s nothing you can do about is that you have the same conversation 40 times over um so that that’s always going to be a bit tedious and and

There’s no way of getting around it but that is that is that is what you’re P getting paid for you know that’s why why you’re there but I don’t I don’t actually mind uh meeting new people like a lot of times you actually meet some interesting people

Um and yeah the Q&A some kind of stuff again I’m just kind of try try and be honest I’m um I’m always going to be a big fan of England um and I want to make sure that that comes across I’m always going to try and be positive and it’s it’s quite hard

Obviously um you know we’re trying to find ourselves as as an England team so um a lot of a lot of the time I’m you know trying to find ways that I can you know Express um you know positive me message for the team so with that positive message and expression for the

Team what do you make of all the talk coming out of Camp from Jamie the coaching team about this new style of play that they want to adopt we saw a snapshot it of both both the games but having got to a semi-final nearly won that semi-final at a World Cup to then

Kind of rip up the the script and and lay a New Foundation of play what was your initial thought with that and how you seeing it yeah it’s going to be tough the hardest thing um or one of the hardest things you’ve got with England in particular and I guess um to

A less extent Wales but England in particular we come from so many different teams um so it’s it’s so hard to um adopt any kind of game plan that everybody can just pick up and and kind of run with um having said that I think the game plan is actually pretty good

Like the blitz def defense is a tough defense to get right don’t get me wrong and they’re not going to get it right uh they’re not going to have it you know um you know 100% right by the end of this tournament um but because we run so much

In the Prem you know we’re a really fit um league as such like we do a lot of run and rugby kind of thing I think it will it will bear fruit in the end um and it’s it’s really it’s kind of highrisk high reward rugby like you get

You you you see what they did to Wales in the second half when they didn’t really get anything and you can turn over a lot of ball and stuff like that and I think it’ll be good against teams like Ireland that like to play quite pretty patterns you just get in there in

The faces and disrupt it kind of thing um but as I said if you get it wrong you can you can leave some pretty pretty big holes was which was evident of the weekend um but in terms of attack um I’m not exactly sure like what the what the

Game game plan is yet like I’m not sure how clear that is um but what I do know is that we have to play more rugby we have the we have the players for it um the the Prem teams as I said play a lot

For the most part play a lot of run in rugby um and you know we’ picked we’ve picked a lot of players that are on good form so let’s not let that go to way yeah 100% looking at the game now you look at Stats and everything like that

England had 37% and Wales 28% of Rocks Under 3 seconds uh and you look at the game the game was quite tured it was actually entertaining in a different way because it was so tight and you know England uh were chasing the deficit 145 whatever it was and it made it into

A battle uh but it wasn’t unbelievable rugby normally you’re getting 60 to 70% of your rcks under three seconds um so that’s where England and Wales probably want to get to but and listen to Jamie George and what courts is saying the evolution the defend look [ __ ] good

At times and I know people are going say it’s only Wales and they didn’t have massive ball carriers but it was so connected and like they were defending for 20 odd phases and Welles getting absolutely nowhere the add-on is then getting turnovers playing off the turnovers in against an unstructured

Defense with width with offloading at the right times and then adding onto that our attack from first phase but like Court says you’re picking players like Slade in the centers who’s been on form Freeman on the wing been on ridiculously good form and we I think we

Started the game that way or tried to start the game that way a bit but then ultimately the yellow card to OE chz which was never a yellow card in my book what you what you boys thinking about that you big second rows I know Courtney’s more of a well that’s a

Courtney tackle even for Courtney I’d say that that was a low tackle never never yellow card in my opinion yeah I think I think we have to be careful again this is this is part and parcel of it like at what point like at what point at what body height do you

Have to be to say this is just a rugby instance you know what I mean because chz is literally horizontal at the time he makes that he makes that tackle and the contact of the head he gets well the referee said he was upright yeah it’s the terminology that we use and again

It’s so easy Courtney and we can go down some of the decision that we can be very careful as well like I don’t have to be careful about ref well I know but as it’s hilarious a producer Rob I was chatting to him obviously the SC stuff

Just blown up massively uh so me and producer Rober talking about but mate Craig big shout out to him he’s a Scotland fan he’s fuming right he’s fuming but he watched The Whistle blowers documentary and he’s like now I feel bad that I can’t say anything like

I was like where were you going to go but you have to be careful but you’ve also we have to be honest you so it’s a fine line between being negative being divisive opening up referees but as ex players as as a as a current player you

Know and for England it’s lucky that that did didn’t cost them the game but the interesting thing of it when you listen back to it on chez’s yellow card they couldn’t initially get the clip up could they no in the stadium and they couldn’t get it to the referee and the

TMO has said oh it’s just penalty only and then all of a sudden he was like obviously the TMO was panicking a bit because the producer couldn’t get the the the replay up and show the ref and basically TMO was like it’s just a penalty back near the 22 and then he

Goes oh hold on I’ve got the clip the clip had obviously come through and then the ref James dolman has gone meets the yellow car threshold here later he said he was upright and and we don’t want to go down a rabbit hole like we’ve talked

About that cuz we could pick things up but like that affected How England because we then go to they end up at the other end of the field they get the penalty try which let’s talk about that one then because the moall and you two are MERS and Brawlers till you die the

Mo’s going at right kns towards the England line but Mara’s on the ball yes and yes it’s a penalty against Ethan roots for sacking it it’s never in my opinion it shouldn’t be a just how fast it was going that was but they’re not in control of the ball so then England have

To then try and play a different way um because of you know being under pressure for 20 minutes pretty much with 13 players and ignan will come we’re two from two the [ __ ] Grand Slams on boys Grandam but that’s what I mean Courtney we were talking about it last

Week and actually what an addition as well Dan biger was to the TV yeah I mean I thought he was absolutely brilliant and he actually gave away the game plan didn’t he before the game he was like Wales were working on the rush defensive England like and how that was going to

Turn out with these Cross Field kicks he actually gave away so I don’t know whether there’s anyone in England that would have picked that up you know what I mean but he actually he was he was in the Wales camp and that’s exactly what happened like wales’s game plan was so

Spot on and Courtney I know you’re not an avid listener of the show will be a big fan I’ve always said that Wales are going to struggle every year I’ve said that up until recently and people you speak to we had RG snyman on the podcast

And I said what’s the team that you hate playing against he said Wales cuz they never go away mate Wales with all the changes they’ve had yeah looked [ __ ] good very physical coming around the corner Wicked in collisions Tommy Rafel was absolutely amazing like Aaron Wayne Right the physicality they’ve got

They’re not an easy team to break down are they Courtney no certainly and and their back row is is really their heartbeat um and honestly is for a lot of teams if you if you get your back Ro combination right you’re you’re going to

Do a lot better you know U than if than if than if you don’t and and Wales uh with Rafel over that ball just making every Rook an absolute [ __ ] fight it’s like is is it’s can’t be understated like every team needs needs a a serious Jackal threat nowadays cuz the Rook is

So important your Rook speed is so important um and then when Wayne R is is obviously playing great and he carries and he and he does all the all the all the other stuff and you know they’ve got a really good balance their back roow so

That that helps them um and then yeah you like the addition of of um George North in the center as well obiously played with him for years he had a great game and you know he just gives them that that front football almost guaranteed um and yeah they look

They they’re really struggling uh you know I spoke to bigs last week um I tick at the game and you know the Welsh Welsh rugby is not in a good place at all at the minute um but hopefully for them they can continue to um I guess perform

Above and beyond uh their their kind of station at the minute uh and that would only help their cause but yeah again another Nation that’s uh that’s on the back foot of the minute unfortunately through forever reason Tommy raell in my opinion should have got on the match I

Was literally going to say and I love Beno you know B very well but if you to say who was the best player on the pitch like Tommy Rafel was the best player on the pitch like if you were to map it out like that which is crazy but that’s an

Old school an old school way of looking at it isn’t it by just picking someone from The Winning Side but like with the they yeah they also yeah I don’t I don’t agree with um just picking the M from the winning team it doesn’t make sense

Like you’re you’re the man of the match or player of the match or whatever they say nowadays regardless of what team you’re on if you you know I’ve played games where we’ve had people you know play far and Far and Away better than anybody on the other side

But we’re still just about on the losing losing end of it it it doesn’t make sense happened to me oh here we go it happened to me genuinely my one and only time I won man of the match for England we played Ireland at Twickenham uh and I kicked a penalty

With about three minutes to go to put England ahead um and they announced it over the stadium and I’m like [ __ ] [ __ ] yes get in there and then irland go the length score the winner in the corner Shane h scored the winner in the corner to win the Triple Crown I didn’t care

Cuz I was jumping for joy that I’d won man of the matches I I did care I did care I had to do an interview post match with man of the match thing I’m like um and you have to pretend obvious don’t pretend you have to be gutted because

You just lost the game the last minute but it’s kind of weird but I agree with it like whoever is the best player on the pitch give him man of the match and Tommy Rafel was yeah I won man of the match in 2013 Courtney don’t if you remember it against Roman against

Ireland I was at the front of the line out with Rory best like get the boarding get the boarding get the bo be screaming at did that ever put you off Courtney or not when I was at the front of the line out uh great honesty great honesty back to

Wales um Wicked like I I I’m you know what with all the struggles there caughty and I agree we know like they’ve got big issues with the clubs like the Ospreys are talking of moving the funding in there everything they’ve been through but when they put on that red

Jersey they turn into [ __ ] superheroes and that and they grow and with Gatlin there and with the voids in their position position like the bat row 100% whatever bat row goes in there you think who they got to come back as well you’ve got Jack Morgan to come back into

That and everyone’s talking about him as Good Wicked the big void has been bigs I think Dan biger Gareth ham leaving and this comes on to Yan lloy is is it this comes on to Yan Lloyd and his performance and whether or not it should

Be him or Sam Castello or Gare Anum to hold that position at 10 you listen to bigs and talk about how talented he thinks this lad is how did you make his performance out Yan Lloyd is very talented he’s very inexperienced I don’t know how many games he started at 10 in

His career maybe 10 I’d say um and that’s the biggest stage for a Welsh fly off to go away to Twickenham um and the difference I think in the end the difference between the two teams was experienced George Ford pulls out that 5022 doesn’t he um and I know George

Ford had the conversion where it was kicked off his tea all stuff like that but just the game management the game understanding the experience of England when they bring Coley on Genji on as well um and and a few positions front row was obvious the experience that the

Bench made a big difference but Y and Lloyd they had some good moments but obviously had some a couple of clangers as well um you know Wales scored the try will get the penalty try don’t they early on uh and then England got two in

The bin he’s trying to run it from under his own sticks which you know marrow sees what’s happening his eyes light up goes and smashes him we get get the turnover Ben SKS a try there was a few errors in there from him but in his defense he’s very inexperienced a at

That level and it’s the hard you know in my position it’s the hardest position to play um with no experience in the you know the cold face of a blitz defense coming out it’s hard for him so um he’ll learn from it and Wales you know were probably masters of their own downall

You know the penalty that they gave away easy penalty I think it was Tomkins offside from a a box kick easy three points um you know that some of the errors that they made that led to England scores uh were self-inflicted I think so gats was very proud of their

Performance yo and Lloyd some good parts some inexperienced parts will get better with the experience but um it is the big thing you lose bigger um and then Costello is the next guy in he was injured yeah I know Callum shed’s gone back to sign for Cardiff for next season

I’d have him in the squad as well they haven’t got patchel was injured as well isn’t he they haven’t got a massive amount of depth in that position so um it was they’re punching above their weight with what they’ve got I think at the minute Wales uh and I mean that

Respectfully because they have lost so many caps out of their squad and they’ve got some injuries um you know and so ultimately to it’s a game they probably look will look back on ago we should have won that had they Ted a couple of bits up they could have won that game

Which would have been huge for them and now I’ve got a mate in the office who well good luck to him cuz they’re going to Ireland up next and then they’re basically going to end up with a wooden spoon game against Italy in in round

Five so I feel for him oh I love that yeah I love that yeah wouldn’t SPO maybe Scotland be in that I no let’s not talk we’re going to talk about Scotland in a minute but just some standout performances Courtney Ben ear obviously got man of the match Sam Underhill man

From your own art he can hit a man can he not yeah he’s a he’s a class player and it’s good to see him back on the scene to be honest cuz he obviously a couple of years there where he’s uh he was kind of off- grid just trying to get back fit

And that kind of stuff so it’s it’s just great to see him back in the team and Performing well and um like I said that we got a lot to work out in the in the bat R I think England um in our in our balance because unders and benel are

Actually relatively similar players uh I suppose their skill sets maybe I just think they’re similar because they’re both the same but they are very similar Ben’s probably more physical carrier if you like or more power yeah yeah he is yeah yeah and unders is definitely a much better hitter you know tackler

Defensive player um but also you know that that six spot is going to be an important position like what kind of player they go with because we’ve got a lot of really well-rounded back row in England like Tom Curry who can do anything Ben Curry who can do anything

Benel who can do anything and same funders we’ also got Tom Pearson who’s not you know had a look in but he’s been abolutely class for us uh plus x amount of others and roots coming through uh Chanda and all that so we got awful lot

Of B row um it’s it’s now just about probably about finding the the right balance for it because you almost yeah it’s tough because you definitely need nowadays um a jumping six or at least a a jumping b r otherwise you’re just leaving yourself so exposed in the lineup um but so I

Think George Martin may may play six eventually I don’t know if it’s fit or or I know he got an injury coming into camp but I think I think Percy he might be uh the the next the next kind of big six you know Workhorse bangs physical

Maybe not quite as athletic as the other as the other uh back row but he can do a really kind of good Workhorse and line out job um so yeah it’ be interesting to see how that pack he bangs as well doesn’t he oh my goodness yeah he does

It yeah hits yeah he’s extremely big and he’s 120 ARS big physical blow yeah and jumps well jumps well talk to me about Chanda cling himself South because I’m really impressed with him every time I’ve seen him play he looks like he’s got even bigger like proper stack now as

Well where would you play him he’s an eight he pick him eight look like an eight to me any yeah I mean he I I I haven’t worked with him obviously so I don’t know like how good he’s in the line out all that kind of stuff but I know he plays obviously

84 um for quins um and what did he come on at the weekend for didn’t he yeah yeah so I guess he would have played six and that’s the thing me I think when you speak to anyone now who knows anything about the game and I was Ching

To Justin Marshall today and he was talking about New Zealand that they’ve not been the same since they’ve not had Kieran Reed yes they’ve got Ary s who who’s probably similar to Ben right he can play across the bat row and it’s something that we’ve spoken about like I

Know K Doris played Seven for irand but really is an out and out eight just a big lad that can straighten the line and is a focal point so it’s a little bit old school like the fatow Billy vapol in his pump like Kieran Reed you know what

I mean like like Dwayne V Mulan yasper Visa you actually think about the spine of a lot of teams it has an identifiable man playing eight of that kind of mold right and I suppose that’s what you were talking about right the balance of the back row yeah definitely

Definitely uh and also so a lot a lot a lot of the time six now um you’re six you know for New Zealand um for South Africa Al although they obviously death toy um play seven but he is a six that kind of player that is a big physical lineup jump in you

Know do a lot of things really well kind of player um and yeah I think as we’re talking about charotte I think he looks really physical he looks really athletic and he looks s could be good off the base of the scrum to me um and then yeah

But it’s it’s tough in it because benel is playing so well but he can also play you know seven and you can let him battle out with you know what I supposed to be Curry and unders um for the seven position or or whatnot but yeah I don’t know I don’t

Know come out retir Court CH your in the ring as well yeah but you know wey want to be at the back of the scrum and like like picking a g because people listen to that be like well Beno scored off the back of the scrum but it’s a different

Carry isn’t it like you’re on about when there’s actually a bit of traffic right as in to get over the game yeah yeah definitely yeah definitely and and look if if if he’s at eight and and Benny ear is at seven you can switch them you can

Interchange them as and when you want um so that that’s that kind of stuff’s not really a problem um and and you know when you get the tougher carries and you know you know you’re getting out of your 22 and it’s just want someone to get your bit front foot that’s that’s when

You have the big lad chucking up um um but he looks he looks extremely uh impressive and athletic I think um I want to see how consistent he can be and play um and and hopefully he we just need to make sure that he’s and and Steve will be great

For this that his kind of skill errors don’t creep into his game because um yeah I’ve noticed that in a you know a couple of games throughout the season or whatnot so if he can tid it up all that kind of stuff be yeah what you mean skill errors what would you mean

Specifically with that like against Italy you know he um he carries really hard but he’s he got habit of you know knocking the ball on or or you that that kind of stuff so like just doing the basics really well is something you got to have locked in when you’re playing s%

I’d have Tom Pearson in there he’s been ridiculous massive Tom Pearson fan but that’s what I mean like they yet and this is the question marks around England like did you learn anything about the game against Wales for them like that they’ve got a bit of in them

They they can do it under pressure that George Ford can manage a game you were calling for him to get dropped James I wasn’t calling for him to get dropped I questioned whether or not they’d play him or they’d play Finn Smith yeah of how they want to go forward because if

You’re an England team and you’ve got this new look Courtney across the whole team then why not change all of it I don’t agree with that I don’t agree with changing teams I don’t agree about talking about teams in transition I’ve always hated it when I was a player but

Watching it now but I’m like if you’ve got George for you know what you’re getting with George exactly every single week played brilliant and he does some games he’s wicked like he’s I mean he’s a world class 10 yeah of course he is but my only Point courtly was last week

Was about well if you’re going to change it up and you’re talking about players playing together and you look at the 9 10 if Finn came in 12 with ding wal as well you’ve got Freeman you know where I’m going with this you look at Ireland right they’re all ler players with a

Couple of non ler players in there so that’s why I was talking about that same pick Saints play like Saints cuz they’re [ __ ] on fire they are on fire and give svest the coach’s job as well exactly old no San veste is on fire as

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