Where is the Black German Identity? | Martina Offeh | Conversations with Black Germany

In this episode, join me and my guest Martina Offeh. A Hamburg native, entrepreneur, and creative, as we delve into her entrepreneurial journey. Born and raised in Hamburg, Martina shares her unique insights into the progress of Black individuals in this vibrant German city and the country as a collective.

As a Black Brit, I also reflect on my experiences, and together, we explore the challenges black Germans face in embracing their identity and pride within the community. The conversation extends to discussions about the growth and marketing of businesses.

🚀 Join us for a thoughtful dialogue on living in Germany, entrepreneurship, and the unique journey of the black community in Hamburg.

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Leave a comment. Let’s discuss.

00:00 – Introduction
01:37 – What is the state of the black German community in your opinion?
03:01 – Social community organisations – Do they help?
06:59 – What do you like and dislike about the Black German community right now?
07:48 – The difference between the UK and Germany for Black people
10:50 – Caribbean and African fights for civil right in the UK vs. Germany.
13:08 – Black Businesses In Germany
15:10 – Black Businesses In the UK
17:13 – Effects of Afrobeats on the growth of Black Businesses In the U.K
17:49 – Black Germans do not own German hip-hop or their Identity
21:07 – Black British found their identity through music
22:32 – Supporting Black Businesses. Black British vs. AfroDeutsch
24:26 – Proudly associating Black Businesses with our culture
25:21 – “Black women and their hair”
26:44 – The dynamics between Black women and Black men in Germany
28:56 – Black German businesses. Marketing and execution is quite poor
33:08 – Black Businesses should not run their business in the German language alone
36:54 – Not enough spaces or events catered to Black Germans
37:58 – Lack of the basic needs for Black Germans
40:47 – Barrier for entry. Businesses in the UK vs. Germany
43:47 – Not much exposure to Black businesses and other career ideas in Germany
47:30 – The potential IN Germany for Black Germans
51:01- Business community organisations are wasting their time right now
55:19 – Is there a Black German Middle class?
1:00:27 – Afro shops in Germany are mostly Black owned. Thats incredible.
1:02:57 – Catering to the Black German middle class?
1:06:40 – What do you feel like it’s going to kind of be in the next few years, for Black Germans?

And that the only people that can   consumer products are black  people and then need their support. And we don’t have enough  support of our own people at the moment. We are still  fighting for that. Yeah,   it’s hard for me to tell a German this,  but I don’t agree with black businesses  

In Germany running their business  in German, only German people. We don’t really count ourself into  the global black community. We are   all people that we’ve found our identity and our  togetherness and music and everything else became   easier. But, I’m afraid for black Germans that if  you can’t find your identity in something as as  

Music, simple as music, then there’s a problem.  My main reason for starting this podcast was to   speak to people who have lived in Germany longer  than I have because I’ve only lived here like a   year and about six months. And there’s a few  things that I see in Germany that being from  

The UK, it’s like, I’ve seen this before and it  frustrates me when I see it because I kind of   feel like I know how this story goes.But again,  I think it’s unfair because maybe Germany story   is different from black British. The black is  the story. So I thought, what better than to speak  

To people who actually live in Germany, who’ve  been in the system doing good, great things.   And you were one of the people that I  thought would be a good person to have. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you  for considering me. So I guess   my first question for you will be what is  the state of the black German community in  

Your opinion? Feel free to offend. Okay,  That’s the big one. Okay. So obviously,   I was born and raised in Germany, so I’ve lived  my entire life in Germany and in the system,   as you put it.I think when I grew up and one of  the main reasons I started, for instance FOGG,  

Which is an organisation that focuses on black  diaspora, mostly on connecting, mobilising, seeing   where we can, you know, use the opportunities  that we do have in the country and just foster   foster them in a way that we can advance and  just be part of society as everyone else’s. 

And one of the things that I saw is that we  are that we do have like a parallel reality.   So we have our own ways of doing things, our  own community, our own structures. And then   just mainly I wouldn’t say white society, but the  German society, which we are not always part of  

Due to different reasons. So at the moment  what I see is that we are somehow breaking   it. It’s finding our way into it. There’s a lot  of entrepreneurship or people starting stuff,   and I think we are heading towards a better place  than we used to be, but we are still not there.  

That’s interesting, I came across FOGG when I was  doing ‘NU People Magazine’. I had a conversation   with someone. I don’t know if it was you, I don’t  remember who it was, but I did come across FOGG.  

And other time, that was a very long time  ago. How many years ago was that? We started   in 2016. But do you know that it started in the  UK first?Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So it was a  

UK thing and then we started a German branch, but  then it took over. Okay, that may be it may maybe   I probably the likely heard of the UK version. But when I came to Germany I realised that I  

Knew a few people within it. I didn’t know  you at the time, but some of [—-] friends   were part of that group and it was the  first kind of group I was exposed to in   Germany that we’re trying to do that kind of  bringing people together and stuff like that.

And in my experience, as amazing as those things  can be, they are some pitfalls to it. And I think   sometimes they seem a little bit rudderless.  They don’t have a direction. It’s kind of like,   Yeah, we’re bringing people together, but for  what? So what do you what, what, what was your  

Experience when you started that group and how do  you think it did and what was the successes of it? First and foremost, I think we are one  of many organisations that do bring black   people or underrepresented people together. We  have the [—], ADAN, and we have quite a few  

Other and you know, all around Germany, when we  started it, I think one of our main visions was   to have poor black people visible in areas and  spaces where they weren’t visible beforehand. And I think we’ve actually done well. Yes.  Do a lot of things that we are supposed to  

Do and focus on. But when we started it was stuff  like a Career-Messe where we had police officers,   we had people from teachers, we  had people from the music industry,   we had so many different people coming together  just offering internships, education, access,  

Just having people from, you know, the different  areas in society, the different industries,   and just connecting them to younger  people that weren’t exposed to it. So most of the time we always say that our  parents, that just a few jobs that we can  

Do is either your doctor, your engineer, your  lawyer. And I think lately there’s been something   about architects as well… Really? I thought it  was engineering, engineering and then medicine,   whatnot. Yeah, that’s it. And these were the  things that you can do and there’s nothing else.

So let’s say I am interested in sports, but yet  there’s no fear that my parents are, you know,   really helping me get into or supporting me  I’m getting into. So just having, you know,   the different industries I’m connected  with the talents that we just have  

Or we do have in our community and  we’ve seen people really starting,   taking on adventurous careers, working in  fields where they weren’t working beforehand. We had business breakfasts. We started, you know,  small with like business breakfast and now even  

Have like companies start or that started within  those business breakfast. We have synergies in the   community that didn’t exist before. So I do see  that we did advance our community in some way just   by bringing them together and really allowing  us to see things that we weren’t exposed to.  

But there’s way more to it. Okay. So I don’t  know if you asked you answered the initial   question of what do you think of the space  the black German community occupies now,   let me put it this way. What do you  like about where the black German,  

Community find themselves at the  moment? And what do you not like? I think we’re still not very we’re not inclusive.  And just to rephrase it, one of the reasons why we   started is because we’re not really part of the  German society. So our from our desires, our own  

Needs, our perspectives aren’t really projected  in the, environment we are in. (mainstream)  And what we have right now is that we  do have black people doing great stuff,   but they’re not solving the over arching issues,  but rather focusing on their own needs again.

So we still are working on or we still need to  fuse it and make sure that we have one large   society that is diverse and not have the black  society. The white one, whoever The Hispanics,   the Turkish people. Okay, so you thinking  more of a coming together and having a  

Society where everyone kind of contributes to  everybody’s business, everybody gets get along? Okay, maybe that’s just my perspective, but  when I go to the Netherlands, when I go to   the UK, I see more of that. Really? I the UK Yeah, you see more… People coming together,  

Although there are… Okay, help  me out. All right. The UK is funny.   This is how I described to you the  difference between UK and Germany. In Germany, I think the German population has  has accepted black people into their homes,   In the UK, they’ve accepted us into their  workplaces. Mmm. In Germany they haven’t  

Accepted you into their workplaces but  they’ve accepted you into their homes   and they into yours. In the UK, they’ve  accepted us into their workplaces but   not into their homes because I have,  I’ve had great white friends at work. I’ve never been to their houses. You’ve  never been to their houses? Never been  

To their houses. We go for drinks after  work and all of that. But I’ve never been   to their house. They’ve never been to mine. In  Germany, I have white friends that I call like,   ‘mandem’. Like friends that come to my house,  they eat the food, everything. That’s funny.

But they haven’t seemed to kind of  embrace you guys in the workplace. Yeah, and they haven’t. So that’s  what we’re still working on. That’s   what we’re still working on. And  I think FOGG, let’s say, ADAN,  

That’s what we are trying to do to make sure  that we do. Because at the end of the day,   even if you invite me into your house, I still do  need to eat. I still do need to feed my family.

I still need to prosper. You know, I need  to do our life. And in as much as we do,   try to be, you know, happy and one  collective and cool and whatnot,   at the end of the day, me and my people,  we need to do well. Yeah, I feel you. Well,  

I’ve always felt like… That’s  an interesting perspective. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah,  yeah, I’ve noticed it. I’ve noticed   that because I’ve worked in Berlin, I worked for a company in Berlin and I was obviously   the only black person there. And it felt  a bit weird. They’re very nice people,  

Thats the thing, I think Germans are nicer  people than English people. English people   are very polite, so you can’t tell  whether they don’t like you or not. German people are very straightforward. Same as  Americans. Yeah, exactly. So I have an idea  

Of how it felt like to work in a  German company and it didn’t feel   as comfortable working in the company as,  you know, being at my white friends house. I think there’s a there’s a difference there. I  can definitely feel the difference in terms of  

Workplace and after work, say home and stuff  like that, they’re just very nice people. But from what I can see as well, I  don’t think that black Germans have   been accepted at the workplace that much.  So that’s the the bridge that needs to be  

Crossed. And I think once that bridge is  crossed, you you’ll probably have a better   society than what you do in the UK. But the  question is how do you cross that bridge? Yeah, you just describe that you have crossed  that bridge… in the UK? Yeah… Workplace.  

Yes. Why do you think so? And how did it  happen? Sorry. Now I’m asking questions…  No, no. Yeah. This is what it’s about.  I’m not. I’m not here. I’m not here to   just interview you. Like I’m  here to literally, like, say,  

Ideas and open conversation. I think one thing  that’s interesting is in the UK, we were lucky   enough to have the Caribbean people go to the UK  a long time ago and Caribbean people can fight. So they fought for all the rights and  went through all the, the, the, you know,  

The atrocities and all the racism and built  it up to a certain level where we could,   as Africans could just come in and plug  into the system. I’m not saying Africans   didn’t do that. Some Africans did,  but was more Caribbeans earlier on.  

So when we came into the system, you know,  Ghanians we’re kind of slow already. So we came   into the system. Nigerians are very hot-headed  as a lot of Nigerians in London. Well, in the UK,   Nigeria are also very kind of business  minded. So things moved forward. And  

They do bring something to the table as well.  Exactly. They demand to get their fair share. Yeah, there was a fight that happened. I don’t think that’s happened here  because unfortunately for Germany,   I think. I might be wrong. Correct me if  I’m wrong, but unfortunately for Germany,  

I think there was more Ghanians that started to  come here. Yeah. And Ghanaians don’t fight for   nothing. We’re comfortable. We don’t… Even in… And I think that most of the Ghanaians coming to   Germany are in Hamburg, so most of the Ghanaians  that you do see in Germany are around the space.

And then you have, I think, Angolans around  Munich area and then the people from Eritrea   around Frankfurt and wherenot and yeah, we  don’t we, we are humble. Yeah. We’re happy   that you inviting us in… We don’t fight for  nothing. So I think that was… it’s now that  

Obviously the younger people are beginning to see  that, you know we have to fight for something. So there’s a little bit more fight. But,  I think the Ghanian parents didn’t fight   for anything. So I think that’s that’s the  reason why the UK, we’ve been able to move  

Kind of quicker in the workplace because we  had to fight and the fight has been going on   for a very long time. But the the part that I’m  also interested in is sort of like the business   side of things in terms of black businesses  and how black businesses are doing in Germany  

And the support that other black people would  give to black businesses and stuff like that. How how what does that look like? You  know, before I answer the question,   I want to share something on the first  question that you asked. You just mentioned  

That in the UK you had Caribbeans,  you had Nigerian people, you know,   really fighting the fight and making sure that  everyone else is comfortable. Now answer your   question. We are now the first or we had, I  think around six or seven years ago where I  

First saw black people starting businesses,  you know, really dive into entrepreneurship. So we do have that mainstream somehow now where  people are bold enough to, you know, give their   own ideas a try and not just thinking about it  or I’m an artist and I’m just, you know, I’m just  

Continuing my artistry by really understanding  the industry. So the question was how we doing   business wise? And I think that we are now getting  an understanding on what business really means. Okay, we have and what sense the understanding  of what the means is actually not just having  

Talent projects, ideas, but understanding  industries, understanding negotiation,   understanding how to frame your your ideas into  solving issues and not just or sitting at tables   with people and trying to negotiate financing  and whatnot. Yeah, we haven’t done that. Mm. I  

Know when I started Ashley’s and saw it, I was, I  was just the creator that wanted to do something. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to come up  with something that wasn’t see? Yeah,   but I don’t really understand what it means  to not just have a project or an idea,  

But really build a business. And we do see a  few people now from Nana Addison, for instance,   and a few other ones around it, but don’t really  understand the business side of it, I believe. Okay, we’re starting to starting to understand  it. Um, and this, the spirit of this conversation,  

I always want to kind of give ideas of  what my opinions are about how, you know,   fortunately for me, I was doing new people  magazine about 2000 till about maybe 2015,   and that was where I feel like the black British  people started really like getting into business.

And that’s where we began to see our power 2000  through 2015. I mean, we’re doing it before,   but around 2015 you saw a shift that was  slowly beginning to trickle end for me.   And what I’ve noticed about Germany and  compared to the UK is in the UK right now,  

I’ll go back and kind of clarify, but right  now the UK I with between the coronavirus   period and now I was part of a business group,  WhatsApp group and other people I know around me,   I know about roughly six people whose business  is of across the $1 million in sales way,  

The tens of millions now just  from coronavirus till now. Obviously the coronavirus hope, but I’ve also  seen a shift from trying to before. What we were   trying to do is we’re trying to create businesses  that are kind of like, um, when you ask a person  

Who’s your target market, they were more likely  to say, Oh, it’s everybody, I want everyone. But   now I see a shift or people are boldly and  proudly unapologetic yet to say My business   is aimed at black people and they won’t look at  it as such, but well, they do marketing as such.

When they have their adverts, you see  them use of black people and you will   feel like this product is in the black  people, but they’re doing millions and   millions in sales. And I think that shift  happened because I’m this is my opinion  

Of Afrobeats. I think the popularity of  Afrobeats right now and the way we can   have a Burna boy or a wizkid come to the  O2 and sell out majority black people. I think we’re beginning to realise,  you know what, we can actually like  

Push people up to the top. And I think that  has given a lot of people a lot more vim to   do things like look at all the festivals that  are happening, the Afro nation. One example,   you know, the guys from Ghana  look, the guys from Ghana here,  

I never knew I might be wrong, but he  is from Ghana from what I can remember. Yeah, it they have it in Portugal, they  have it in New York, all sorts of places.   So I think even an afro is Afro challenge. Afro  for future Afro future. That’s the one I meant  

Afro itself. The gospel tone, I guess. So all  the things that have kind of used the music   to do. And in the UK we’ve owned our music,  we’ve owned our grime music, our garage music,   we’ve owned our now R&B, everything. We’ve only as black people, at least as at  

The forefront of it in Germany. I listen to hip  hop and it’s all Turkish and white people. Yeah,   and I’m like, What’s going on? I mean, we do have  people like Suz Klein. I think they told me we  

Do have Kevin called Calvin Cole. I think  it’s Kevin Cole. And I’m not a music guy,   so I won’t be able to tell you about  all the aspects of the music business. But one thing that I want to look at is the  fact that we are now learning to own identity.  

Yeah, that’s one thing that you said is working.  You know, the Caribbean guys, whoever that the   Nigerian people is that there’s some form of,  you know, Afro British or identity identity in   the UK. Yeah. We don’t have that. Even when you  were saying that inviting us into our houses.

Yeah. The question is, are they  inviting me with all of who I am? Yeah,   I just what they can take. Yeah.  Okay. Because most of the time,   Oh Lord, help me because people will look at this  podcast and will come at me. But most of the time,  

Especially where you have very diverse friend  groups, you can tell the difference of, let’s say,   a black woman amongst the black friends and  the black woman amongst the white friends. The same goes with black men and whatnot.  There is some form of you shrinking down  

Who you are just to fit in. So I do love  the idea of us being welcome in the houses,   but I do see a difference as well. Okay,  that’s interesting. So now going back to music,   we do have even people like Suz Klein, people  have been telling him, you know what, rap and  

German rap and German Jim obviously won’t do it,  but it’s just because that’s something that we can   more or more likely accept because it looks like  us and music is so personal, it’s so creative. It’s like, you know who you are. And  I think all of us have gotten to the  

Place of owning who we are and pulling out  from that place instead of just, you know,   catering to the needs of everyone around us.  And I think music is one part of it. So even   if I’d say that, let’s say you have a business  and it’s mainly black, black owned business,  

That might be an issue because that would  mean that the only people that can consume my,   my letting my products are black people  and then I would need their support. And we don’t have enough support of our own  people at the moment. We are still fighting  

For that. Yeah, those are those the time  period in the UK where that was a problem   as well. It’s so much better now and I can see  the trajectory of Germany’s black community kind   of go into that though. There’s a lot of ups  and downs that will probably be experienced.

But I think the reason why I brought  the music thing was the music was the   first thing that brought us together  as a people and we saw the identity,   do you know what I mean? So we literally have  a song. There’s a song by a guy called Giggs.  

If you’re talking the hardest, we call that  the Blackness, the British national anthem. Oh, really? Yeah, That’s our national anthem.  We’ve we’ve accepted us. So what’s the song   about? It’s nonsense. Like, it’s it’s he’s is is a  street kind of song. It’s not about it’s about his  

Life in the streets and all of that. But we’ve we  we we like him so much and his music and that song   in particular when it first came out a long time  ago and the The troubles that the mainstream media  

And the police gave to this particular musician  kind of cancelling his shows and everything. So his stuff, we supported him because they  were just giving him so much hell. We just   adopted his music and that song in particular  was our national anthem. I say that to say we’ve  

Found our identity and our togetherness and in  music and everything else became easier. Yeah,   slowly became easier. But I, I, I’m afraid  for black Germans that if you can’t find   your identity in something as as music,  simple as music, then there’s a problem.

Yeah. And we’ll be. How fast is how fast.  Yeah it definitely is. Because I do have   friends that have businesses that only cater to  black people and they’re struggling. They’re not   making the money that we’re talking about that  you were just talking about. I think what also  

Happened, what happened in the UK is when  people started unapologetically saying that   this business is by black people as a black owned  business and using black people in their markets.   And eventually when black people started  supporting everybody else to support. Yeah. So  

Now we just don’t have black. You know, the  thing is that even if we look at and I won’t   even refer to people like the Kardashians  own and all of them, but even over here,   wherever black people do, it’s called culture.  Yeah, it’s culture. People just follow it.

So the other day at work, we had like a  check in. We had a workshop and then we   had to check in and that was something about  what was it you describe your week in a song,  

I guess, and obviously all of them came out with  their songs and I came up with, I think it was   the actual timing that’s so I felt like I just  felt that in that moment and everyone, you know,   it just shifted the atmosphere and was  a corporate environment was wonderful.

Why people would really appreciate  and love or whatnot. But you saw that   as soon as I brought it up. The way people  interact has changed. So there’s something   about us and what we bring to the table.  And I think that’s why I love art. Art,  

Culture, lifestyle products, businesses  so much because they really are something   that we do own because all of us  and everything that is within us. So when it comes to our food, our, our let’s see  how products, whatnot is something that’s really  

That’s really I feel like that’s something we’re  really putting our soul and our everything into a   and we just need to follow through. Yeah.  And just keep going. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,   from what you’re saying, just to add to  what you’re saying, it’s interesting.

Um, that people kind of associate black people  as culture, but I think there’s a struggle   with black Germans. Again, correct me if I’m  wrong, I’m new here. I’m just talking from   my observations. I think black Germans have  not noticed that power. You know, we haven’t,  

Like we have. The power is in the music and the  culture, the we article, we move the culture. And I think this is what British people in black,  British people of I’ve really even gone in, people  

Have realised. So when we start a business now  we are proudly associated also with it and make   it universal and people buy into it. Yeah. MM  Two things that just came to my mind is first   and foremost, so that external influences,  I just saw a survey that looking at Europe,  

Black people in Europe are discriminated  the most amongst all European countries,   which shows that if I go out, I need  to watch my back, I need to be careful. I can’t just be me because I might be especially  black men, I might be too aggressive or I might  

Be whatever people want to, you know,  categorise me into. And as black women,   it will be very hard because you are different.  And even our I don’t want to bring that about, but   even within our own community, there is so much  discrimination and so many such a lack of support.

So heard stuff like all black woman from  black men or black woman in the hair,   black woman and whatnot. So to me, to  own my identity and to own my power,   I need someone to encourage me to support  me. And I need a safe space. And I think  

When it comes to external influences as well  as internal influences, we don’t have that. We’re not safe within our own identity.  So it’s very hard to love something,   to own something, to use something that  people tell you is not good enough,  

Or do you see the effects of it? Yeah. Hm.  Interesting. This this dynamic between black   men and black women. I think it’s everywhere  in different sort of levels and from what I   hear from my female friends in the UK, my black  female friends in the UK, when it comes to sort  

Of like relationships and stuff like that,  it’s quite bad, the relationship is bad. But when it comes to businesses, I don’t think  it’s like that because I think women, for me,   in my experience, women are the people that move  things forward faster than men. When I was running  

The magazine, the people who made that magazine  really welcome are women, not men. Actually, the   person who led the magazine was the only man I let  in was the one that led the magazine crossed out. Both Funny. Sorry, Chris, but it was women that  moved before it. And from what you can see,  

There’s a lot of businesses that are being,  even if it’s owned by a man, is being driven   forward because of the women around them. And  so I don’t know what the relationship in terms   of business is like between, you know,  black German men and black Jim and women.

I think most of the time it’s it’s similar to  the UK you have. But the funny thing is you   mostly have men running the show, but women  making sure that everything runs properly   business wise is way more into action and way more  collaboration between black woman and black men in  

Germany. And I think it works perfectly fine.  Like I can tell by I do come my examples quite   a lot by idea for instance, I think that  as much a woman in that as there are men   and they do appreciate their differences  as well as their expertise and whatnot.

So it works well. I mean, if you put your  mind to it, it can definitely work. Okay.   I think when it comes to relationships, it’s  different because it hit, it hits home and   it’s way more than way more traumas and work  that needs to be put in in terms of, you know,  

The way that we were brought  up and the things that we saw. And when it comes to business, it’s a business.  You have a business model. You don’t kind of   thing, you know, you go home, you go home, okay.  So I I’ve come across a few young people who  

Started their own businesses and they’re great  people, great business ideas. But the execution   execution is an issue. And I think is I think I  think black Germans obviously live in Germany. So you’re in a German society, so you do what  Germans do. I think black Germans have adopted  

The German thing of keeping things simple and not  that like, for example, your websites all of these   people I know I’ve been on their websites and  their websites are like terrible. I won’t say   terrible because I know them, but yeah, I  mean, I don’t know who you’re talking about.

So I would say terrible. Not talking about  anyone in particular. They’re just not up to   scratch. And if for example, in the UK, if you  start a business and you have a website like UK,   everything’s about aesthetics, it has to  the society itself. When you go to London,  

You look around, you just see, okay,  these people all about aesthetics,   like up here, the pavements, like if  you walk on the pavement in Germany,   well in Hamburg anyway, the parts where the  trees are, there’s a lot of sand and everything.

In the UK they still put concrete on  there just to make sure that it’s,   it looks beautiful. Like aesthetics is  everything. The UK granted, London is   very dirty in terms of people throwing things  on the floor, but it’s, it’s touristic so Yeah,  

Exactly. And it’s very pavement. UK is  all about aesthetics. The first time I   came to Germany I was walking around thinking  it’s filled with like something is missing. And then I realised there’s not a lot  of commercials around. Funny. Yeah,  

Yeah. But when you do see the commercials, it  is very standard. Just, yeah, buy my products   and they’re not inviting. Exactly. That’s the  word. And I think black Germans have adopted   that German. Most definitely. Yeah. And I think  that’s why I initially it and I initially studied  

Fashion text management because I loved I just  don’t love creativity, but I love beautiful   things and I love to make things look beautiful  as well in front of my set that I’m in the street. So what is new to your aesthetic for us is  Inside is really good. Yeah, well, thank you  

So much and I love that so much. I mean, it’s  money, It’s time, it’s a lot of creativity,   it’s a lot of effort that you have to put  in. And most of the time German people does  

Or does a weight and weight loss or this  is a phrase that we use metal some slack. So you just do stuff in order to get stuff done  or you just you do stuff in order to make sure  

That you know, it’s the same stuff. Yeah, it’s  done. If I want to sell a glass, I would just   make sure that a glass is sold. I don’t care  about the packaging. I don’t care about the,   let’s say, the shop and merchandising,  the environment that I’m selling it into.  

I’m not even care about a brand experience. I  think that’s what I love about Apple so much. It’s   mainly about the brand experience. We’re not even  buying the products, we just buy the pictures,   even the packaging. The 72nd rule is just  the experience that people are selling you  

Are being sold to, and I think that’s something  I’m definitely with you when it comes to that. We haven’t really given thought to, you know, I  see kind of like they haven’t really kind of sat   down and thought about how am I going to brand  this products, What’s will our brand colours,  

What message does the logo convey? Apple  does that amazingly and even when you go   to I think when you go to the Apple Park  in California and even all our offices,   like all Apple offices, when you step inside  an Apple office, you know you’re an apple.

It looks like the iPhone. It’s you know, I mean,  it looks like an iPhone. It looks like an iPad.   It’s really weird the way they do that. But I  don’t I don’t see that sort of except maybe your  

Bigger companies like the Mercedes and the  Porsches and all of that, they okay kind of   brand in marketing, but that’s because they’re  international companies and they have to do a   search for more like the local businesses and  the businesses that mainly operate in Germany.

Just branding is very terrible. I think a  lot of black businesses have adopted that.   And the second thing I have an issue with and  this is this is this is a controversial thing,   but it’s hard for me to tell a German  this, but I don’t agree with black  

Businesses in Germany running their business  in German only a speciality should be like,   let’s say, a global perspective  should be a global perspective. If you’re a black person, this is definitely  a global perspective because that’s where   your money is coming from. Like the businesses  I’ve mentioned before in the UK is that they  

Have customers in America and all over  the world. That’s where their money is   coming from. So if you’re going to run a  business and it’s an e-commerce business   in Germany and you are offering like  your communications and the only German,  

You’ve left out a majority of black people around  the world who are probably going to be your main. It’s funny, I don’t even know who taught me that  once, but you leave the German language at the  

Airport. Yeah, there’s no I heard. I think I was  listening to an interview by Noah and then he used   a few German phrases and I was astonished like,  Bro, you’re part of me now because I rarely walk  

Around. No VM and I hear people speaking German. Yeah, German. It’s not influential. It’s nobody   speaks French anyway. Yeah, it’s only Germany  or Austria. Luxembourg. It’s a few places.   Switzerland? Yeah. So. And living places that you  just mentioned. These are the places where black  

People are people. So you all who knew a lot of  black people that would potentially be wanting   to support what you do and also what that also  does moving us away from the sort of like the  

E-commerce and the business, even the services. If you’re going to have a restaurant or even a   club night, whatever it is, it’s all in German and  as an English person, when I was in England before  

I came to live here, if I’m coming to say if  I’m coming back for the week and I’m looking for   something to go to, it’s on in Germany. And even  if I understand that this is a this is a rave,  

It’s a club night, I understand that the fact  that it’s in German doesn’t appeal to me. Yeah. One thing I just thought about because  I do try to understand the background of stuff   in order to really understand where  we do come from is if you look at,  

Let’s say, the global black identity, there  are francophone people that are people that   do have British roots. But then when it comes  to and that’s why you have people let’s say,   all over the world speaking English,  and then you have German people.

And I think Germany, we won’t even because  we do have like Namibia and I think parts   of South Africa and then Tanzania, tons of  people. Yeah. But at the end of the day,   I feel like German people, we don’t  really count ourself in to the global  

Black community. We are all people. Yeah, for  whatever reason, as the language is a barrier. And it’s hard to say this to German people  because you probably consider yourself German.   That’s a British personal coincidence. Or  British and that’s your language. So it’s  

Part of your culture. But I think you need  to recognise that there is a wider culture   out there that you’re also a part of, which  is more you that maybe the German identity,   maybe that’s up to every  individual to interpret that. So I feel like sometimes the language  thing because it hurts tourism,  

Because when a black person comes to Germany,  I remember a friend of Melody’s cousin came   to Germany and we picked her up and we dropped  her off. She’s like, Oh, what’s going on this   weekend? What’s where can I go this weekend? And  I drew a blank. I couldn’t tell her anything.

I don’t know what’s going on. I don’t I can’t tell  her where to go because it’s like the the culture   hasn’t built a like I can go to London and in a  we can be like I can live in a house in Hamburg,  

Germany and plan my entire week. Exactly.  Because you know that there’s events on   there. Certain places, you know when you  go to, you know, that you’ll be catered to. Yeah and that’s special places. I feel  like these are places for me. Yeah,  

Yeah. Over here. Ask me about  where to go on weekends. Yeah,   yeah, It’s just me, my girls. Yeah, me,  my friends. Yeah. And we find our spots,   but we’ll create them. And I think we haven’t had  enough spaces that were created with us in mind.

So even me thinking about, you know, let’s say the  other day, I was. I think I was, because I don’t   do my hair when I was in my teens. But me thinking  about a hair stylist in Hamburg, it’s hard. Wow.  

And these are basic needs of basic, very basic  needs. Yeah. So let’s say I won’t do my hair.   Who will do it for me? So my first  thought and that’s just me. Okay,   I do need to do something. About what? To create  those places. Those spots. Those spaces in order  

To make sure that black woman being catered to and  I’m not even part of the beauty industry. So my   first thought would be, okay, I need to go into  entrepreneurship, build a business, something,   see who my friends are into hair styling, and  but I won’t always be the one to be the first.

I can’t really. Yeah, but is that something? Do  you do you realise how much of an opportunity it   is? Yes, I know, I know. I think right now I’m  in the season of my life. It’s funny because  

I’m in my twenties. I think I was all over okay.  Today I would say I might be all over the place,   but I was to me, everything was possible and I’ve  tried to do everything that came up to my mind.

So starting a business in, let’s say, the  hair industry, just because I saw I saw   a need that the other day or the next day I  would see another need. So I do believe that   entrepreneurship is our vehicle in order  to really have change the society that we  

Are in. But it’s just a lot of effort,  a lot of effort, resources, dedication. And as I said earlier, we are still  trying. We don’t even say so to say that,   but we’re not even safe in the country. So our  basic needs are not even taken care of. So going  

Out of our way to start businesses that do take  years in order to create a community is again,   a lot of effort that we need to put in  just to have a decent life in this country. Yeah, it’s because he his the his way.  I realise that this is really bad,  

Actually, this problem is really bad  in Germany or at least in Hamburg,   because that’s where we are. There was a time that  I was about to go to London. I said to myself,   You know, you let me get an extra bag so I  can biking in London and bring it to Germany,  

Because I’ve been here before and  I’ve been to places I still can’t go. But they will sell you to Kinky. There’s no  pepper, there’s no fees. It’s like you just said,   What’s the point? It is there is no place that  actually sells kinky with all the fixins. And  

I’m like, This is bad. So as a community  full of gone is not even have that as a   soccer. Yeah you know so there’s a lot of  opportunities I know in Germany is a lot  

Harder to start a business than is in the UK. I think I like three or four corporate Ltd   business business, registered businesses  registered and I understand that here you   have to pay a certain amount of money to  register. One was a 25,000, €25,000 just to  

Register a business to the classic. I think  it’s getting harder for here. I think it’s   similar to the LLC that you are UK Ltd, so  that alone is a barrier to entry for most.   Me Of course it is. I mean you  can start with the UK, which is,  

I don’t even know. It’s one part of the Jim  BEHA where you can start with I think €1,   but then you have to wait until you have to  25,000 in order to have it reregistered. Why,   what’s the what’s the, what’s the difference  between the GMB wage and that one?

I think it’s just, uh, I need to look into it  again. You know, it’s just a smaller version   of it and I think it’s in terms of because  with the GMB age, let’s say you go bankrupt,   they will come and touch your private money  and finances. And I think with the UK they  

Will definitely come and look into your  finances and your private stuff as well. And I think that might be a difference, but I  need to look into it again. Okay. Obviously,   because that’s what the 25,000 is obviously.  Yeah. Okay well in the UK you can just start  

A business once you have the idea she just  registered yourself as a limited company. You   can put some money that anything from a pound  onwards and then you run as a limited company   and you don’t have to pay any taxes until  you get to a certain level of revenue yeah,  

What’s the level for any, Uh, I think I might  be wrong again, but I think it’s about 75,000. I don’t know if I’m talking about VAT  you, I’m talking about corporate tax,   but I think is 75,001 that it’s okay. I  know VAT is a rough is definitely around  

To register for VAT is definitely around  that but to pay corporate taxes you don’t   pay corporate taxes to a certain level. I’ll  I’ll check I’ll do the research and tell you.   But it’s that easy to start a business and  get into it. But then again, another thing  

I see in Germany is there’s a lot of people  taking caches of cash as business. Like they   don’t accept card payments. A lot of people  take just cash payments. So that’s a way to   get around the whole Debs thing. Yeah, and if the  money is not documented, the money isn’t there.

Yeah. So you can do whatever you want to do.  And I think especially the Turkish people,   the Chinese people, that’s what they do. If you  go to a Chinese restaurant, they rarely take car   payments. Yeah, I hate that. I do understand it,  but I hate as well because I never have cash. Same  

Here, same. I don’t remember the last time. A whole pound notes, I don’t know. But most   of the time I don’t, I never co my wife carries  cash, I never carry cash. But yeah. So again that  

Will be a barrier to entry for for black people  starting businesses and I think it’s not just that   is as I said earlier, we don’t even understand  the industries that we’re trying to cater to. We don’t. And I have to be very careful saying  that we’re not the most educated people as  

Well. We’re not the most exposed people. So  really understanding, hey, this is an idea,   not a project or just a project and not a  business. We’re not even there yet. So it’s   not just the legal stuff, business world,  understanding of what you’re really doing.

MM Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I’m, I really want to see  black Germany kind of because I think there’s so   much potential. Yeah, it’s crazy. Yeah, it’s  so much potential. And talk to my friends,   all of them. I’m the friend. If you come up to  me with an idea and everyone knows about me,  

I would definitely be. Oh, definitely. Make sure that you follow through. Yeah.  And you do something within because I   hate to see all of the ideas that we do  have an all of the opportunities that we   have and not using them. There’s a lot of  which because my parents came to Germany,  

I think end of the eighties, they didn’t come  as academics or they didn’t come for schooling. So to me I’m the first one to has all of these  opportunities and if I don’t take use of or make  

Use of them, my kids have to. Yeah. And that  means that another generation has to live and   that. So yeah, that’s terrible. Yeah. I mean the  work has to or the work has to start now because  

We don’t want the younger generation to get to  our age and be like, What were you guys doing?   Because that’s what we look our parents.  Yeah, well, you know, even as I said earlier,  

With the energy aspect, one thing that we do  is to make sure that people like there are role   models. So let’s say my kid comes up and tells  mom I love school and whatnot, but I do want  

To let’s say I want to have to have business. I want to link it to people in my own circle and   say, Hey, you know what? Go to her or go to him  because he can help you out. And at this point,  

I can’t, you know. Sheesh. Yeah. So we are we  are then forced to follow on journeys and path   that do exist. Yeah, but might not be ours. Yeah. So where do you see where do you see  

The little light at the end of the tunnel?  Where do you see the solutions happening? Um,   I do have incredible people in my life, so I do  have people. If it’s in the corporate feet, I have   people working in consultancies and banking  into different fields. When it comes to the  

Creative aspects as well, I do see people being  in companies catering to the luxury market.   I do see people in singing music. A friend of  mine and that’s one of the stories started off   a friend of mine, he’s actually like a  small brother of mine. When he started,  

He started because his mother was a singer, so he  started with singing. He then decided to actually   go to the UK and then study music. And then  he started, you know, learning the saxophone. And now he’s touring worldwide with the  big artists. And that’s what I love to see,  

See how people understand that their  craft actually means something to   the world. Yeah. And then just Yeah, yeah.  And these are the stories that I do see in   real time. These are the people around me.  Yeah. So there is a way. There is a way.  

Yeah. Yeah. That’s the way I am. I feel  like I always want to see black people   doing good. So when I go to a place and I  just see people just not supporting people,   not being kind of forward thinking, I always want  to start the conversation because there are people  

Out there that definitely are on the same path  is just the conversation I’ve been brought up in. Being from the UK. I come here and I  see all these things. I’m like, he goes,   realising what a much of opportunities  are around you and like sees it or What’s  

What’s the deal? You know what I want to see?  Let’s see you for instance, with your podcast,   you do have the entire production  set up. You do know how to run it. You said that you are into production as well as  publishing them, not published them. For example,  

Marketing content management. So let’s  say, for instance, I start a business   and there are certain aspects because as  I said, I don’t like social media. It’s   funny because I wouldn’t consider myself an  introvert, but when it comes to social media,  

I could care less, which is that because  that’s where you get the exposure. So let’s say we team up and I do something, let’s  say I have the product and you make sure that the  

Product is viewed in the right way with the right  branding to the, let’s say, to the target group to   actually want to talk to you. And there might be  something that I wouldn’t be able to do by myself.

So just having teams come up, teams of people  really and not trying to, I don’t believe that   all of us need to be bosses and all of us need to  be the face and all of us need to be. You know,  

The vision is you can just be part of a team  supporting one another. And that’s what I   think we need at this point in time. We do have two ideas. We do have people  

Coming up. We do you know, we do see businesses  trying their best. But there is more to it. And   I think we won’t be able if we don’t get that  collective mindset of us pushing one another.  

One thing that I saw in the UK that I see here  as well, and bless their hearts, we touched on   this earlier and there’s a few companies that  like EFG and there’s another one, a few of them.

I’ve seen the all of that, all their names  start with a for some reason I don’t know why,   but these groups are trying to bring the community  together in different ways. And like I said,   once they bring the community together, then I  don’t I don’t see where we’re going and go. And  

They they do things like they pick a business  and give this business an amount of money.   Like, how do you even know that this business  is going to spend the money that you give it to   them in the right way? Like what’s the follow  up? What’s what’s the results? Think? Okay,  

That might be let’s say we’re not talking  about the same project that might. Yeah,   but I think that’s exactly what you’re talking  about, is to have some form of aftercare.   Absolutely. So we can start somewhere. But  where we go together, because I can push you,  

I can help you and whatnot, but we have  to have long term visions right now. I   told myself I won’t pick up any idea  that I won’t be able to follow through   for the next ten years unless I can  dedicate the next ten years to it.

I won’t do it. That’s a good idea, because  otherwise I would just hop on to something,   do it for a year, maybe two,  and then we’ll leave it. Yeah,   Yeah. And it won’t work like that. So even,  let’s say. Alison So to me it’s clear once I  

Go back to, to work on the ashes, I  will have to do for next ten years. There’s no way around it because it’s  consistency that keeps us in the game.   Yep. 100%. Nothing else. I don’t know if these  groups are really teaching that aspects of  

Things and how consistency is the key and how  to stay consistent and be in a real support   system to these companies. And I mean, bless  their heart, like I said, it’s a thing we did  

That in the UK for a while until we realised if  there’s no money coming in is a waste of time. So now what we find now in the UK is the  these kind of groups have moved from,   just being supportive to actually saying,  you know, give me your products. Once I  

Have a bunch of brand names under my, under  my umbrella, I’ll go to Selfridges and say   Black History Month, can you give us  a space? So there’s Black Pound Day. So every is a company now. Every one day of  every month is called Black Pound Day. So you  

Spend your money with the black business. There’s  I work with these people, there’s Jamie again,   they take your products, they have their own  platforms. They work with Barclays. So sometimes   Barclays has a magazine. They’ll introduce the the  the the people in their support group to Barclays.

All when Barclays is doing some sort  of a staff thing, they’ll be like, oh,   brims bottles can prints your bottles voice or  paper. So they actually making sure that there’s   money revenue coming in and that’s what we’re  beginning to see. We’ve stopped less support  

In in theory it’s less support and help you  get money and we make money in the process. So I hope that Germany gets to  that point. But I don’t know if   the conversation is happening. I think  these companies are too focussed on  

Trying to be the the Oh God, the top  of it. Yeah. And I think one thing you   just described is really understanding  the ecosystem that as I said earlier,   the business is not just the talent or you can’t  start a business by just having a talent or just  

Having a popping idea or just seeing something  that you might be able to, you know, cater to. But we understand the entire ecosystem  and understanding your place in it. And   with all the different even the  the social impact organisations,  

There are so many different ones and I think  most of them don’t even understand where they   fit into the picture. So we all try to do  the same thing without understanding that,   hey, this might be your piece of the cake and it  might be mine, it might not be the same one, but  

We can actually help one another to become, you  know, this wonderful cake that serves everyone. Yeah. And unless we understand that there  is an ecosystem toward Mum and me, myself,   I won’t be able to cover all of the aspects of  it. It will be very hard for us to push through  

And get to the point of having a break even  actually having revenue. Yeah. And then really   having a share of the market because right now we  don’t really and this will get people some areas. Yeah, and that’s what most people are  struggling with because as I said,  

They don’t even understand what market am  I catering to you, what are the dynamics of   the market, What are people that I need to  talk to and the people you’re catering to,   What are their goals? Yeah, what are their  goals? Yeah, and how can I help them really help?

So it’s such an, I don’t know, such a subjective  approach to business and that’s why I’m like,   might or whatever I bring to the table  might be something that means something   to what I need to go out and understand  what the people actually are about,  

And we don’t do that. Yeah, I think in the  very least they’re looking at this all wrong. In the very least, I think they need data.  Let me ask you a question. What do you   think? Because I know the black Germans  don’t understand your power. Do you think  

White Germans understand the power of  black Germans? Mm, That’s a good one,   DDC Black Germans as a market to pay  attention to. No, I was thinking about given. Yes, but I don’t believe so, because now let’s.  Okay, let’s just start with George Floyd. Everyone  

Knows about black businesses yet, and I think  most of the people, they understand that there   are black people but don’t really know whether  that’s a black hero. So as you were talking about   the black pound, I don’t believe that they think  that black people are the ones with the money.

We might be the ones to influence, but the money  is not coming from. There’s not enough cash in   our pockets. That’s a good segway. To my next  question, because in the UK we can see there’s   a black middle class. Obviously we’ve had the  opportunity to kind of build further in terms  

Of integration in the workplace. So there’s  definitely a black middle class that when you   start a product, you can be sure that you can aim  at different levels of the class for the classes.   It’s not always a good thing, but at least as  the your so you saying that there isn’t much  

Of a black German middle class, it makes it a bit  interesting because then your businesses have to   aim at people who might not be able to afford  what it is dependent on. What business. Yeah,   most definitely. And I think as I said earlier, if  I start a business, I’m actually solving an issue.

So me starting on, which is just to solve,   has a lot to do. And with the circuits that are  moving in. So it will be very hard for me to,   let’s say, come up with a product that  caters to the entire German society,  

Because I might not be able to understand, you  know, the different environments that people are   moving in, but knowing that the people that  I know best kind of what I do, in essence. And so it was obvious that it didn’t really  even the price point was way too high for the  

Community that I was in. So that makes it hard to  really move in a way and, you know, do something   that is new to something that is a bit out of the  box and still pay the bills that you need to pay.

Yeah. And one thing that just came to mind  was you were talking is that we can’t have   businesses or prospering businesses without  having people in the workforce. We can’t just   be on the entrepreneur field and not be in the  corporate environment as well. Otherwise we will  

Be walking circles trying to come up with  stuff that people, our people can’t afford. Yeah, which is heartening. And again, we’re  not even there. Well, today I was talking to   a friend of mine because I wanted a massage  and I did some self-care and she was like,  

Wow. And I was sad she found that  special. Yeah. And to me was like,   That’s that should be our basic maintenance.  Everybody should be. Yeah, yeah, it should   be basically for me to go to a hairstylist  at least once a month and just fix my hair  

And everyone else in society is able to do so  because there are, you know, different health. Yeah. Doing that for people. So why not us? Yeah.  So do you think the solution might be to focus on   businesses that can be more affordable? What  does the certain things that are basics that  

Other people are doing for example? No, they may  not supports it by for example, if you started a   drinks company, you make soft drinks or whatever  it is, which a few people have done in the UK. You should have a market for that  because everybody can afford one one €1,  

$0.50 or whatever, you know. So what do  you think? Do you think that would still   be an issue of support or do you think  that? I wouldn’t say that there will   be an issue of support, but the question is  whether there’s there’s big money in that.  

And because the the how do you put it down to  margin is the margin won’t be depending on,   you know, I’m not into drinks production but  won’t be as high as other other products. And   then you would have to sell at least three  times, four times as much in order to get  

The same revenue. So yeah, my be solution and  maybe it’s something that we can do to just   look at our basic needs and water and start  to create products for that and then use that   money to reinvest in different different areas. Yes. Yeah. Because even things like restaurants  

Where people eat, I know there’s always the  thing of when, for example, people instead   of people going to dine in restaurants, they’ll  be like, I can do this at home. It’s crazy. That   was in London as well, But it’s not so much  the there’s a Nigerian restaurant in Oxford  

Street, you know, what’s the name of it? And this and this I think it is in Oxford   Street. Oh, I love it. That is that is progress.  And people actually go there. I’ve been this   I don’t know what the food, I’m sure it’s  good. But even things like restaurants and  

Eateries and places where we can eat, it’s  people like these are things people can it   doesn’t have to cost an arm and a leg. It can cost like €12 or whatever for a simple,   nice home cooked meal. You know, in a  restaurant. We should be able to have  

These kind of things going. So, I mean, when it  comes to the more luxury and expensive products,   then I get it. But when there’s other things also  available that can be businesses, why not do that? Yeah. The one thing I will give Germany,  though, is there’s a lot of Afro shops  

That actually are owned by black people.  Yeah, I will give that to Germany because   whenever because when you have them to you  packing it or checking it, not a suitcase,   it’s you go to the UK. I do that too. Yeah.  Because I do get my stuff from the UK then.

But those places are owned by the Asian people.  Yeah. Which to me is funny. Yeah. Funny. I said   Yeah. But the reason being that I think that  most of his aid all by Asian people is Asian   people stick together and they give each other  the connections and they do understand that  

There’s a black market amongst black people. Black  people, you know, the black people come there. But so that’s the one thing in the UK that is  like, I don’t like the fact that I mean, we   support we should support everybody’s businesses,  but we should we should understand that. Why is it  

That all our hair products and skin care is from  other races every time? I mean, there’s some that   are black owned, but they’re not around that much  and you have to do a bit of a trip to go with it.

I do like when I have the time, I take a  trip to go down to Tottenham. Tottenham to   just go to the black person shop, but  not everybody will do that. But yeah,   and I think the corner shops and stuff, I  think the Asian people have cornered it and  

Like even the Afro shops in Brixton, all owned by  Asians, so that I’ll give Germany props for that. Or the Afro shops I’ve been  to are owned by black people,   all of them. Yeah. So that’s good. It’s not even  the official bar. They have like beauty supplies  

And whatnot. And I think there are Asians too.  I haven’t seen that yet. And as I said to me,   that’s funny. Yeah. So let’s give Germany  some props today. So it’s things like that. So if we can build on things like that, like  the afro shops and the, and the Afro stops,  

Needs to stop branding themselves  properly and advancing and doing.   There’s also woman I came across mama to  Mama. She but she’s not from Hamburg. She’s,   she’s a member. I saw her on Instagram and she  was branding her things so. Well, I was like, No.

I drove to her shop just to go. Me I have pictures  of this. The goal of me is tell her that yo, you,   you’re doing it right. And I bought a  few things. And so things like that,   like people need to start  kind of pushing the their,  

Their businesses and their brands forward and, you  know, starting little things that I think we can. But it’s hard, too, because I was thinking  about starting something that kind of required   a business class. You business for a middle class  market. Yeah. I don’t know what to do with that.  

Now, I’m not going to say here, but I don’t know  what to do with that now because it will require   people paying, I’ll tell you off camera or require  people paying actually being willing to pay.

And there are people paying. Yeah, there are  people, as I said, is not if you look at the   demographics, obviously there are much more  people not having enough money. But even if   you look at the kids now, they’re all wearing  essentials. They’re all walking around with  

The Jordans like they do have the money somehow,  someway to do. But then the question is, do they   see something or something of value that you’re  offering that they want to buy into as well?  

So depending on what you. Okay. So if you if you  if you come up with something that’s a good idea   that you brand the brand has some form of,  you know, acceptance by the larger society,   obviously people will pay for it.  Yeah, yeah, I wanted to do that.  

And along with that I wanted to build a  database of black Germans of all classes. And obviously middle class would be important as  well, because I think it’s necessary because a   business will not take you seriously until you  have a database of even looking at, you know,  

Building a business. At some point you  will have to talk to investors and they   will ask you for data. They ask you for the  the target that you’re trying to to address.   And if there are no numbers, no figures attached  to it, it would be very hard for you to debate  

That there is a need and that there is a need  and that it is a community that your business is   validated by. Yeah, and obviously that’s a part of  the reason why I wanted to start a podcast podcast  

Network, because when you have a network of other  podcasts that you all are under the same umbrella,   then if I have say, if I have a viewership of  maybe 12,000 subscribers and you have ten and you   have 20 together, we’re looking at 200. So you go to an advertiser and say,  

We have a viewership of 200,000 together.  Just pay us collectively. We will set the   money amongst ourselves. That’s our problem. You  don’t worry about the payers collectively and your   adverts will be available on all of our podcasts.  It’s funny because this woman, I know she does  

Exactly that. She has like an ambassador group  and what she does is whenever you sign up to our   newsletter, she counts you into her network, her  readers, and then she goes to all these companies,  

Looks at all the, let’s say, all the followers of  the different people that are part of the group.   And that’s what she uses. Yeah, data,  email addresses, email addresses,   like it’s very important. So for me being here,  my goal right now, apart from the podcasts and  

Obviously other things, I start in the UK, I  want to build a database of black Germans. Yeah,   somehow I can support because if you have to  and I want it to be in the entertainment space,   and entertainment space means hospitality,  entertainment, hospitality, not clubbing.  

I don’t, I don’t really club anymore. But I’m a  fan of, you know, going to Yeah. Bars and music,   live music events and jazz clubs and stuff like  that. And if I have a database of people that I  

Know will attend to venues that do these things,  I can then speak to the venues and be like, Hey,   I have a database of up to 20,000 people. What you said, Yeah. Jonny It’s a no brainer.  

So I want to start a database. That’s  the how I’m going to start a database,   I’ll tell you afterwards. Yeah, Yeah. Okay.  I love that. Yeah. So yeah, so we leave on   a positive note. Yes. It’s sort of you told  me positive notes. What is the positive? What  

Do you feel like it’s going to kind of be in the  next few years, be a positive for black Germans?   One thing that we touched on is that I do  see quite a few people, especially from the   younger generation down and different corporate  fields. So there are people that are into science,  

Into like different, like not as sweet,  it being very limited to just a few jobs,   but being exposed to quite a few different things.  And that’s talking about having a middle class.   I do see a middle class rising up. It might not be  in my generation, but I will definitely happen. I  

Will definitely come. So there will be needs that  we can actually use and start crazy, successful   businesses and it will just take us time to build  the structures and understand and maybe even pass   on the understanding of, let’s say, how to run  a project, how to understand an industry and how  

To cater to the industry and whatnot in order  for them to really be able to push through. So I do believe that in ten years from now,  Germany or black Germans will be situated in  

A much different way than we’ve seen in the last  couple of years. Yeah, I said this to a friend of   mine about three years ago and I said to him, In  ten, 15 years, I think black Germans would be in  

A better position black British people. It’s a long shot, I know. But the reason   I say that is because the relationships  that you already have with white Germans,   apart from the work thing, I think is so close  that once you guys are able to understand your  

Power and where their own you and be unapologetic  about it, the culture will start seeping through   easier. And the kids, the younger people  growing up, like you’re saying, growing   up with other people of other races, but being on  an equal level and playing for when they grow up.

Yeah. So it will be different. Yeah. But the  UK, that separation is still there unless the   UK can bridge that divide. Yeah. Yeah. If we  do get into corporate companies and all of   that. But other than that. Yeah. We don’t  really that so friend friends. Yeah. It’s  

Weird. There’s some but not much. Yeah. Cool.  That’s a good. Thank you for the invitation. No thank you for coming. I think  for coming. We should definitely   re circle back and see how it’s  done. A lot of things change,  

So. Yeah. And have more of these conversations.  We love to. Cool. Yeah, Let’s do that. Perfect.