The Right Reverend Paul Butler will retire on 29 February 2024 after ten years as Bishop of Durham. Join Bishop Paul in St Peter’s Chapel, Auckland Castle, as he reflects on his role as Bishop of Durham in conversation with the Dean of Durham, the Very Reverend Dr Philip Plyming.
Streamed live from St Peter’s Chapel, Auckland Castle.
Organised by The Auckland Project in partnership with the Diocese of Durham and Durham Cathedral.
[Applause] well ladies and gentlemen uh welcome to tonight’s very special event in which we’re delighted to be hearing from the right Reverend Paul Butler the bishop of Durham reflecting on his ministry here in the Northeast over the last 10 years it is indeed wonderful to be here in St
Peter’s Chapel in ockland Castle which has itself seen so much transformation over the last 10 years of which more later uh my name is Philip climing and I serve as dean of Durham overseeing the life and mission of Durham Cathedral of course the seat of the bishop of Durham
I’ve only been this in this role since September but I have ministered in this dasis since 2017 when I came to be Warden of cran Mall within St John’s College Durham University and therefore Bishop Paul has been my Bishop all that time and I consider myself blessed to have served
With him so it’s a delight for me to lead our time together this evening let me explain to you how it’s going to work uh I’ve got some questions which uh I’ve talked through with Bishop Paul and I’m going to sort of walk us through those
For about 45 minutes uh then we’ll take a little bit of a a break just so that we can digest what we’ve heard and begin to formulate questions that we want to ask for ourselves and that will take us through till half past 7 at which point
Uh some welcome Refreshments uh wait for us all really so that’s where we’re going to go uh I hope we’re in for a great time I’m sure we are Bishop Paul or Paul as I think you prefer to be called absolutely so I’ll call you that
Without any sign of lack of respect but Paul thank you for taking uh my questions and then the questions from us all uh this evening we’re delighted to hear about your experiences um from your 10 years as Bishop of Durham can I take you back first of all further than 10
Years to before you came to Durham what did you know um about the county and the dasis before you came and and and I guess in those first few months of the role what what surprised you what do you remember as those key memories so the
Honest uh answer is to what did I know is not very much um I had been to Durham uh a few times um I after University before training I spent two years working with something called the university and college Christian Fellowship on their bookstore service and um on two occasions I visited Durham
University to visit the uh University Christian union and on one occasion I visited what was then Sunderland poly Technic uh likewise to do some work with their very small Christian union um so that was three visits and um then I had also come on a training uh week uh for
Bishops um when I was Bishop of Southampton um and we stayed actually in St John’s and um we that’s that was my first experience actually of of um walking uh the pilgrims route onto lindis Farm um so that was my knowledge uh Rosemary had to admit that she had been
To a wedding in Sunderland of a friend and that uh on the day of the announcement which happened in the September uh before we started um she quietly admitted that she had never been inside Durham Cathedral ever before so we didn’t know so we didn’t
Know a great deal in fact I I can tell you when I um uh when I was invited to when I was first approached about my name going on what’s called the long list um one of the objections I had put forward as to why I shouldn’t be on it
Was that I didn’t know anything about the Northeast uh really and um and I wasn’t really a typical Bishop of Durham type of person um to which I was told by the archbishop’s appointments adviser that they were not valid objections and hence where you are so
That so that was it so so what struck us um so I so I’d have I have to be honest you know um growing up in chesington in Su going to school in Kingston on temps um I I I I would have I had got some created uh images of County Durham um
But that’s what county Durham was like of course in the 1960s uh and so on so I still had pits and smoke and coal dust and um ship building and steel Works uh uh so I had an image of bluntly dirt actually and Industry um uh I also had the image of
Um uh the bishop of Durham being appointed point in 1984 when I was a curate at one David Jenkins um and I’m afraid the onlyest truth is that the curate of 1984 didn’t think very much of said David Jenkins and his theology um so I I had that
Image um although I also had image is from um KN actually knowing a little bit of Michael Turnbull and knowing Tom Wright quite well um so yeah so so in the so the first months the big Skies the Green Hills yeah the Golden Sands although you don’t have to stay at
Sea and Beach for very long before you start seeing some still seeing cold dust coming in and so on um uh and the lack of Industry um the levels of poverty that were visibly obvious um the extraordinary warmth of the people but the different nature of what Hospitality looks
Like um people don’t invite you into their homes now that’s so because culturally you talk to people on the street you sat outside your back door and you chatted to your neighbors along the street and across and the streets were places you play but you didn’t invite people inside your
Home so it’s a different style of hospit it’s not being inhospitable it’s a very different style of hospitality and it’s it took me ages to get my head around that um yeah so those some of the early impression now in those 10 years you’ve traveled to basically every corner of
This County and dasis yes every Parish every Community just give us a sense what are some of the special places that have most special memories for you just give us a flavor I know you I’m not asking you what’s your favorite place I’m telling us what some of the special
Places what are some of the special memories from across this dasis so some of them are deeply historically linked so um the jarro monwar mouth yeah uh monasteries bead and all that goes with them it is extraordinary standing in St Peter’s monk we mouth lead worship and seeing the tiny little Saxon doorway
Which is still there and thinking of bead walking in and out um and and likewise at jro the what’s now the chancel area of St Paul’s jaro which is still that the sax and thinking about so so those are they’re they’re incredbly um of course the I have to say the
Cathedral is an extraordinary place but we might we might come back to the cathedral in a different way um uh walking in Teasdale and weirdale yeah I actually said that was probably about two years in I can remember saying to someone in Teasdale I think this is even better than any of
The yire Dales and they said Bishop Paul we agree but please don’t tell anybody we’re trying to keep it secret yeah that’s right no um uh because they are they are absolutely glorious but um I know I love seeing Beach M uh and so and I love Tommy see yeah um so
But so those are those are some of the places but it it’s always been the people everywhere you go it’s the people you meet and the people you talk with uh and so so um uh yeah and the Vari I mean I love I love the variety having seven
Local authorities to work with so I got heartley stock Darlington County Durham Sunderland South tinside Gates head um there is such Variety in all of those and in the communities and the people and so so yeah now you’ve lived here in Bishop ockland and I know you’ve taken
On some specific roles here in Bishop Oakland including chairing the the brighter Bishop board yeah we had our last meeting this afternoon what was what was getting involved at that level in the community why was that important for you and and how has it been part of
Your ministry as a bishop kind of being very kind of locally focused so well so there’s been two aspects to it although they’re very they’re intertwined one is being is is having the office here and Edward made made points about the the the importance of that um a and talking
To Jonathan ruffer very early on about um the office being here and having signs up about the bishop of Durham pointing out to visitors to this place that the the the bishop of DM is not a figure of history but it’s a it’s know it’s a living serving role um doesn’t
Doesn’t make a make so so there’s been all the stuff about being here and inevitably getting involved in conversations about the castle about the faith Museum about kinan I I still have V very Vivid memories of Jonathan coming and sitting down and telling me the
Vision for kinan and I did think I I did actually say to him uh you’re Bonkers but if anybody can make it work Jonathan you can and it’s wonderful yeah it is it is it is extraordinary um uh so there’s been that but the um I was
Reminded today it genuinely was the last meeting the brighter Bishop B today um Chris Myers who’s work who’s the daram County Council officer who’s worked on us all the way through he he reminded me that he came with Sarah Robson who was then the lead and sat in my office in
2016 and said um you can you we want to do stuff about restoring the finding a new life for the High Street um and we need an independent person to to to to head it up and we wondered if you would do it as both as
The bishop but also as a resident yes um and they said it’s a it’s a two-year project this was this uh this was 2016 and we had the last years yeah um this because the whole things the way the things are unfolded um but it’s given me a rootedness in engagement in
In the community in which I live yeah and it has meant I’m going to pick it has meant that I I’ve been able to to work with this extraordinary man down here Bob Bob mcmanners is is well most of you know here he is a legend really
You know he has fought for this town in so many ways and I’ve worked with Rob York and David land and then there’s a number of others of you here um and it has been such a privilege to work with local business people with local local charity with local volunteers with the
Civic Society with tap uh on and with the County Council and with the Town Council on what what hope now and I there a slight sadness about one the slightest SS about leaving now is when we haven’t we’re not quite at seeing all of that come to fruition but I can walk
Down Newgate Street and stack is going up and the Kings Way car par is coming in and and that Dreadful golden Casino has gone and there’s going to be a new walkway through and uh so and some of the upstairs properties are now back in use and there’s more of that happening
So so um and you know and and and tap has delivered what it promised and one of the things early on was the skepticism and frankly vitriol at times against um Jonathan and and what he came and the the conviction that they would you know he and Jan would just walk
Away and I always knew that was untrue but I so um yeah it’s been it has been wonderful to be kind of actively engaged in in this community and we’ll come back later to how that’s impacted on your National role po can I just ask a little bit more about the
Ockland project tap as it’s known um they’ve been part of organizing this evening’s event yeah what excited you go back to those first times what excited you about the vision for tap in the first place and and what’s encouraged you most as you as you say it’s not
Hasn’t reached the end of its story what what you’ve seen already come to fruition so so Jonathan was always very clear this is a 25 to 30e project minimum that started in 2012 so at the very least we’re not quite halfway there so there’s a long
Way there is a long there is a long way to go but but what what drove Jonathan and Jane from day one you know when Jonathan went away on that on that Retreat where he felt God say to him it’s time to start y using your money
Giving it giving it away but not just giving it away but actually has been it’s all been about social regeneration it’s about about creating jobs it’s been about creating hope for people for changing a community and that that that you can’t do over that that
Takes a long time um we were um at the meeting today David L was pointing out that you know the new development at Tindale that’s 450 new jobs for this community and tap has been creating jobs and as and you know I was down at kinan doing some filming for a Christmas piece
And there’s there’s a there’s a whole bunch of people down there who have jobs that didn’t exist beforehand there’s people working in this place and these jobs didn’t exist um and as the kindan park develops and so on and becomes a 364 day thing there’s going to be more
And more jobs and the great thing is kindan volunteers have learned all the skills that means that there’ll be prime people to take up a lot of those jobs so it’s about local jobs so yeah it that conviction that actually uh you can offer social regeneration you can offer
Hope you talked about the economic regeneration one of the things that’s also been at the heart of your ministry as a bishop has been your passion for children and young people you you’d worked for script Union before you became a a before you became a bishop
Um that’s been all the way through your ministry yeah um and in fact just a few months ago I was with you um when you were sharing your own Christian story to a 100 young people in darham Cathedral as part of the pulse uh uh sort of story which was fantastic what why
Has uh what’s been so energizing about working with children and young people as a bishop and and what’s brought you why are you passionate about it and what’s brought you great joy in doing that so it does go back to to my own Christian I you I I I was raised not in
A churchgoing home um uh and coming to a living faith in Jesus Christ as a teenager through the witness of um my peers at school through the Christian union and a a really active very good youth work in a in a free church that I started going to because I fancied my
Sister’s best friend you um and and them introducing me to to to to uh Jesus as someone who I can know and love and serve and follow and and making a a commitment to that just before I was 15 years old um so part of the passion is somebody somebody told me
About Jesus when I was a teenager in a way that has impacted my entire life so I want to do the same for for for another Generation Um a story I don’t tell very very often but but that in that youth youth group um there was a
Really big tragedy uh and that um uh two of our friends uh on a Sunday night we used to pack into somebody’s home and then we’d all make our way home and I at that point I used to cycle um and uh but some of my some of our mates were now
Were old enough to have little motorbikes and um uh Jim uh Campion who’ been a friend for a while um got on his Honda 50 and my sister Mary and uh her best friend Joyce the one that I fancied that I never did go out with um had an
Argument about who was going on the back of the bike where we’re talking uh early 1970s um and uh in the end Joyce jumped on the back of that bike and uh they off the road Mary got into a friend’s car to get a lift home and I went off on my
Push bike and uh 3 minutes later I went round the round the bend and I found Joyce and Jim dead in the road um they had gone straight smacked back into a skip this was early 1970s helmet yeah unlit skips all sorts um and I know that that has it’s meant
I’ve lived with an awareness of the shortness of life and that just because you’re young doesn’t necessarily mean you have a whole lot and I so I want children and young people to hear the good news of Jesus while they have opportunity um there’s a whole load more to it I just
Love working with children and young people I I love the energy they give they they I love the questions they ask I love the insights they bring they don’t always realize often the questions they or the comments they make they don’t realize The Depths that they’ve gone to theologically or Phil
Philosophically but they they make me think and they make me see things differently So and I’ve seen the impact they have on you when you when you’re when you’re speaking to children when you’re speaking to young people you you come alive or they see a different part
Of your character do you recognize that oh yeah yeah and and and one of the things that I’ve not been able to do very much as uh Bishop is I love storytelling and I love telling stories to I love telling the Bible stories to John and using using imagination and so
On um uh yeah no they do they they bring their light now one of the roles you had earlier on in your time as Bishop of Durham was was relating to children but in a much sadder way which is you were lead Bishop for safeguarding within the
Church of I was for six years and and I remember you giving a number of uh public AES to survivors and those affected by church-based abuse of which the Church of England is rightly ashamed um including after the conviction of Bishop Peter bull which was a particular high-profile
Case why was doing that well important to you and what do you carry with you from that experience of those six years doing that role um I carry a lot of pain uh because during those six years I listened to a lot of survivors and their
Stories um which uh do bring shame on the Church of England and the and and the church more widely because actually sometimes I was listening to survivors who’ve been abused in Roman Catholic church or and other churches um and it wasn’t just that that that it happened in the church context it was
Also the fact that the church failed to believe them failed to respond well um and we and we don’t always get it right even now you know that we’re a lot better than we were but we still don’t always so I so I carry a lot of partly because of the trust that
Sometimes they’ve placed in me to tell that they’ve told me their story and they don’t want me to tell it to other people um I when I started the Church of England had one shared a national lead safeguarding person with the Methodist Church and I still remember having to argue the
Case for increasing from a shared post to a full-time post and then to a team of four and I you the reality is in internally I that was a hard argument I it it was really tough to persuade fellow Bishops and um uh lead people within the kind of
Structures um that we needed to to expand that and that that at dios level you need every dasis needed a full-time safeguarding advisor and would need other other people and everyone’s oh it’s going to cost us too much and I won’t go into all the details
The I’m glad I won the argument if I now I don’t know what the number is but the National safeg Guard team must be at least 20 people there isn’t a dasis that doesn’t have a team of safeguarding people because of the the growth of it some of that is the nation recognizing
Because you know at the end of the day the nation has had to face up to the fact that child abuse was almost endemic in institutions all institutions um back in the 40s and 50s and and so we’ve had to face up to that and we’ve had IA doing the that National inquiry
And so on um and I I that’s another I’m not sure I’ve ever had the chance to say this part I I could remember with the Archbishop of Canterbury sitting with a Home Secretary who will remain nameless saying this is a problem that the nation
Needs to face up to we need a national inquiry and the government telling us that that was never going to happen really really but it did it did yeah and it’s and it’s exposed also and it still you know we’re still living with a s so I got lots of it wrong I
Misunderstood things I’ve you know because because we were all learn we were all learning um but yeah it’s still it’s um it’s still painful Yeah you mentioned earlier about one of the first impressions you’d have Liv living in the Northeast was visible poverty and that’s something that you’ve
Spoken about not only locally but also in your National role as a member of the House of Lords how have you come to understand kind of poverty in the way that it is expressed in a Northeast context and kind of what’s motivated you to speak so passionately about it and I
Guess what as you’ve seen it develop and the situation change what gives you what are the areas of Hope and also what are the areas of ongoing concern for you so um so I I had a privileged background I grew up in a in a it it I jokingly say
It used to say to my parents we were a we were a boring middle class family um and uh so I didn’t see po it was didn’t and and I really I first experienced um child poverty in this country firsthand uh when I was at University and um involved in in not
University’s uh charity stuff which meant I went and they had a social action thing and I went out and I suddenly I found myself visiting um homes where I thought goodness people really you actually people live like this they live in this this Dreadful house and children are growing up in
This um so that’s how I that that’s how I first but but then I I was also I’ve had the privilege doing quite a lot of traveling to East Africa and um I did something to Russia and so on and there I saw real real poverty and I never thought that I would
See uh children in this country as in as much need and sadly I have here in the Northeast I mean it’s astonishing what some children grow up in still in the sixth fifth sixth richest nation on on Earth um but for me actually um understanding poverty must be not just about the
Economics and the finances because just giving people more now I do actually believe that people are having more money in their pockets better pay and so on does make us does make a real difference so I so I so I think you know the financial poverty matters econ the economics matter but if
We see poverty only in those terms we really miss the depths of poverty so we have to look at at at at relational poverty soal so social possibilities the the poverty of opportunity uh the poverty of aspiration and I and and and I also have to say we
We we’ve got to recognize spiritual poverty and if we don’t if we don’t re deal with um the lack of um dealing with people as human beings Who Are Spiritual Beings as part of how we tackle poverty we’re never going to we’re never going to resolve it
Um uh so you have to look at poverty at all levels now inevitably I suppose because of the House of Lords and because of so um I probably sometimes come across as only being only talking about the economics and the finance and the and the and the social and some of
The social poverty but actually my conviction is you have to deal with poverty at all levels otherwise you never really resolve it we have a major problem in this country um Joseph rry Foundation published their latest report yesterday and we have an endemic 20% of the population who we never managed to
Get out of the deeper poverty and that’s been true for the last 50 60 years so you can’t blame any political party on it um there’s something structural that we’ve never quite broken I’m I’m hopeful that a current poverty commission headed up by baroness Philippa Stroud which is cross party and
So on but it’s not just cross party for the very first time it’s a commission looking at poverty which has is bringing together national government local government business that’s both nationally you know big business business but also small and mediumsized business thinking and the charity sector and the face and they’re
Saying this is a problem that we actually have to solve as a nation as a society and if you and it’s not just a government problem business has to be involved it’s not just a business problem uh the charity sector has to be the society has to Civ Civic Society has
To be involved and and I’m hoping they they might actually come up with some creative collaborative ideas that no one’s ever tried before you mentioned the the national role and your role in the House of Lords and you’ve spoken on poverty you’ve also spoken on um welfare issues particularly
For immigrants and people seeking Asylum yeah how have you answered the charge that I know comes up uh not not rarely that that Bishops shouldn’t be engaged with political matters and that that should be left to the politicians so my short answer is what Richard Moss politics North Sunday morning because he
Asked me that an interview this morning for for that um so um I absolutely agree that it’s not the right place of Bishops to be involved in Party politics but politics with a small p is about the police it’s about the people it’s about Civic life it’s about how we
Are as a society and a community and um the Christian Gospel the Christian good news has always been about um people experiencing life in all you Jesus said I came that they might have life life in all its fullness so we’ve always been about life in all its fullness we’re always about
About people reaching their full potential what that the Christian Gospel has always been about reconciliation with God but also reconciliation between people and as soon as you talk about reconciliation between people you’re talking about how social structure works how forgiveness Works how we encourage and help one another that’s
Politics so how can I not be involved in politics as a follower of Jesus Christ and that’s been the church’s history down down through the centuries now it it happens that because of the extraordinary history of this nation Bishops are more intimately engaged with the life and and
We have a place in the house of the Lord so while we’re in there we have to play our role fully absolutely we we’re not there to be involved in Party politics um it happens that for 10 years I’ve been in the House of Lords and there’s only been a conservative government so
Perhaps my one regret is that if I stayed for another couple of years I suspect there might be a labor government before the before uh the end of that two that two years and lo and behold you know what they’ll discover is that the Bishops will also ask hard
Questions critique them and say how might we do and and they’ll and their voting figures will be rather you know um that’s just that that’s the way of it you mentioned earlier that your role has taken you not only kind of from a local to the National but also International
You mentioned you travel to East Africa and uh russer as well really the dasis has a link with lutu Y uh I know you visited there also Bundi and Rwanda what have you taken away from those visits how have they added to your ministry as Bishop of Durham and what’s been
Something that you’ll carry with you from those experiences so the the involvement in East Africa goes right back to uh training at theological College getting to know Uganda and past uh becoming involved in that region um I first went to Rwanda in 1997 three years after the genocide I’ve been 20 20 times
Since uh rosem and I been I’ve been to brundy eight nine 10 times now um and we have dear friends in Rwanda and Brun so so the relationship that relationship is very personal it’s very engage and it’s very very long term lutu has been much
More this is the link that the dasis has and and so on and um uh so I I went and we’ve had visits back and others have have been to visit and it’s it’s it’s great what um when I was vicer in walam Stow there was a point where I was going
Virtually every year and I I said I I said to the bishop of Buba on ES gu at the time he he later I’m Archbishop and um is and we stayed with them last summer they’re dear dear friends um uh I I said to him I’m I’m thinking of not coming next
Year uh because I’ve done the Suns um you can pay two pastors for an entire year on what it cost me to fly out here so I’m so we’re going to donate you the money yeah and he said don’t you dare and I got back I’m not sure it was the
Same trip because these things kind of collide in your memory don’t they but I also I I I said to my team that I work with in wolam St I had a couple of Team Pickers and a church Army Captain and the youth work and I said to them I’m
Thinking of not going to um uh Randa next year uh because I I I feel that it’s not fair that I go off for 10 days couple of weeks and I leave you to it and so on and to a they just shouted at me and said you must keep
Going that wasn’t was not the reaction I was expecting so I put you you put the two and two together what anesore said the reason he said was don’t you dare was he said you haven’t got it have you Paul said relationship matters more than your money being here with us standing with
Us standing alongside us and then representing us back in the UK means far more to us than you giving us some money and what my colleague said to me was going to Randa Uganda at that time it was those two countries um we see it re Reviving you I
We know it’s hard work for you and so on but but you come back with different ideas you come back with a different perspective and actually the engagement with the World Church for me alongside wanting to stand alongside my sister and brothers in other places has they have opened my eyes to
Seeing to learning about God in fresh ways to discovering more of the depths of what the Christian faith is all about but they’ve helped me see this country differently they’ve helped me see uh my my engagement and my mission here differently and they’ve and I and I in what
Way well if you take the poverty thing you know um we have you let me let me tell us a story this is in Southwest Uganda with our friend Enoch and um he set up a Uganda based charity that particularly works with um they so this is so they
Said as followers of Jesus we are meant to stand with the poorest and the most needy so when you’re in one of the poorest Nations on Earth how do you how do you decide how you stand with the poorest and the most needy so you find
The poorest and the most needy in your own setting and they identified the batwa pygmies would you don’t call them if you ever call them pygmies now I’m afraid you’ll get accused of all sorts of things but the batto and so he said where so he took us
So they started working with the batw communities the batw being forced out of the Jungle and and and because of deforestation all sorts of things like that um and so he to and we walked for about an hour across the hilltops and we were sung the entire way and um when we
Got to this tiny little village that they were were helping the back to our build on the edge of the forest so they could still go into the forest to hunt but they were being given a permanent home and they were being introduced to better
Hygiene um which I when I reflect on it now was slightly demeaning because actually of course they knew a lot about hygiene inside the jungle but it didn’t look like anything like our hygiene but anyway I had to bless the first ever latrine yep which of course was a long drop I
And I did I quietly I said to Enoch you’re not expecting me to bless it actually are you by using it he said no no no no um um but we got taken in into one of these tiny little huts and there was a BTO our woman dying and
She very obviously we had to have an interpreter but she thanked us for coming and there was something about the way she said it and the way that she was there I thought this is extraord she she she all she wants to do is give to us as visitors thank you and that
There know that kind of just makes you think differently I know that the ministry of a bishop is is not easy has not been easy all the time the support of Ros something I never wanted to do it support of Roseman has been crucial for
That but but what it is it about that good news of Jesus that you first encountered as a 50 year old lad what is it about the good news of Jesus that has kept yourself going and that you’ve come back to again and again as the motivation for your ministry what is it
That’s fired you still oh the cross and the resurrection um that’s how I part of I was I’ve always loved history and part of the the decision to actually become a Christian was was looking at was reading the gospels and reading the stories of jesus’ death and and the resurrection
Stories and trying to make sense of them because it didn’t make any this this doesn’t make sense yeah people don’t rise from the dead once once you’re dead you’re dead you’re buried and and reading them just from a historical base I I I I thought actually although
It doesn’t seem to make any sense the only thing that ultimately makes sense of these stories is that they’re true if they’re true then Jesus rose from the dead if Jesus rose from the dead then why did he die and if he rose from the dead then everything that he
Said I have to take incredibly seriously what he said he died so that forgiveness could come about so that we could be put right with God again um so I come back again and again and again to the cross and and when I when I look
At here’s an here’s also going back to your previous question the biggest question that I get asked in this country is about the question of suffering and particularly of innocent and it’s a it’s a very valid and it is still for me the the the the the biggest
Argument that people can give in in our society uh that leads that leads to doubt about God but actually at the cross I see a God who entered the world and a God who suffered unbelievably innocently and I can’t I I I’m not trying to claim I can make sense of a
Lot of suffering but a conviction that there is a God who loves us and entered into that human suffering to bring us ultimate freedom from it makes more sense than any other explanation anybody’s ever given me so I I just keep coming back to it but the really this is the the really
Interesting thing is that in the poorest Nations on Earth that I’ve been in one or two places where Christians are persecuted seriously I was in Iran on one occasion ex um they don’t ask the question about suffering they don’t ask it in the same way be and they’re living living with it
In a way that I’ve never lived with and most of us never live with it they ask different questions um and they ask questions more about Justice why is the world so unjust which is a different yeah why do you rich Nations keep insisting on keeping us
Poor sorry final question from me before we have the chance to open it up to others what in the last 10 years have you learned about a yourself and B and be your God uh so um do it you can do it in any order okay so so um we got my farewell
Service and I was telling you beforeand I I finished writing the first draft of my farewell sermon so spoiler alert now um uh the The Core theme that I want I want to get across in the farewell service and it comes across you’ve seen the draft is that God is
Faithful and the utter faithfulness of God um through thick and thin um uh and I’ve learned more and more about that that that that that God is utterly faithful there are times when I feel like God you’ve let you you’ve left me hanging to dry and you’ve left me
Hanging bya by a finger thread but actually you’ve never let me drop and not catch me you’ve let me drop sometimes but you’ve always caught me um so the faith that that that God is God is faithful and um and is for all people regardless of who they are
Background and so on one of my favorite still one of the things that I still kind of miss about not being a parach when we were in walam though it was a very mixed community and we had 34 nationalities in the congregation and so on one of the things I used to love
About um people coming up to the rail to receive communion they would kneel down was that sometimes I knew I knew enough about some of the people that one of the poorest people was kneeling next to one of the richest people that one of the people who was suffering with all sorts
Of problems with with their health was kneeling next to someone who was a successful athlete but here we all were equals before God receiving God’s love and God’s strength together and in this together um to that unbelievable faithfulness of God um what have I learned about myself um I know more than
Ever that I am a frail sinful human being um who always lets people down it always fails and yet that God chooses to use people like me and you that’s right and you yeah and that that that in the depths of God’s love he takes Ordinary People and does
Extraordinary things through them and with them and that that yeah that’s why I’m going to that’s what I’m going to miss is because there the there are extraordinary people across this dasis in this there’s extraordinary people in this community in this room in this Chapel tonight who do extraordinary things unsung
Unseen and that I suppose that’s the other thing about about God is um God’s always God’s hardly ever no please don’t misunderstand me theologically here God’s hardly ever at work in the big and successful God’s always in the corner with the suffering person that’s where
God is you know I we we won’t know the answer but what I do know is happening in Gaza at the moment is that there are people who are serving and caring and ministering love unknown unsung and that’s where God’s at God is Paul we really appreciate what you’ve
Shared so far thank you for your honesty thank you for all that you’ve given to us to think about what we’re going to do now um we’re going to give a chance to Paul to have a bit of a break a grab a glass of water can I suggest we do two
Things just perhaps turning to the person next to us number one we might want to say is there a something you’ve heard from Bishop Paul that’s really stood out for you tonight something that connected with you personally um and then secondly is there a question that’s
Coming to your mind and then we’ll take some questions in about five minutes time but just if you want to stand up turn around cu you I think I will do the same but one thing that’s connected with you can I say I you can ask me anything I really
Don’t you’ve heard that so one thing that struck you one question that’s coming to your mind come back in five minutes or three you just dropped your well that wasn’t that wasn’t too bad time up by those friends joining us online so just wave a hand and I’ll pick a hand
Out and uh uh lovely question over here yeah so you’ve been you were a bishop before you came to Durham what’s different about being Bishop of Duram thank you thank you Wendy it’s a good question um so I was Bishop of Southampton first that was a suffragan bishop so in there are differences
Between being a suffragan and being a diois um which is about the level of authority and and so you have but they yes they now as Bishop of of Southerland Nottingham for three and a half years um and of course when I never expected to
Be a bishop um when you become a diois bishop that having been made a bishop once you become a diois you assume that’s it um so that’s part that was part of the shock of having only been there three and a half years and invited to come up here
Um so there are several things and and I have to I have to try and unlock in my head um are these differences because I’d already experienced being a doosan bishop and I inhabit it because it’s in that s I’ve done it I’ve leared this and
What is it about the bishop so the bishop of daram is um permanently in the House of Lords I wasn’t in the House of Lords in when I was in southernland Nottingham so there is something about the fact that the bishop of Durham is always in the House of Lords which
Impacts how the dasis itself looks to the bishop it means that the bishop of Jar because it’s permanent it means the way that the bishop of jro’s role and the way that the arch Deacon roles are set up they’re they’re set up to take account of the fact that the bishop will
Be in the House of Lords um which was different from uh when I was in southern Nottingham um and that also impacts um how the bishop is seen I was a bit taken aback by how quickly um the chief execs of of the local authorities and the leaders of the council
And those local authorities contacted me to have a conversation and they were consistent in their theme which was as the bishop of Durham you can speak up for the county for our buroughs for the Northeast as a region and we don’t have many people who can do so in
The House of Lords so please speak up for the region and that was wasn’t the case in in not partly because I wasn’t in the house a lot but I think there’s something about that there is you can’t get away um being Bishop from the history and the prince Bishops and so on
And I you know I look at I look at I I go around this the the amazing way that this place has been redone and tells the story and and um if if I’m being a little critical of it sometimes is it tells the best story and there are some of my predecessors
Who I’m not particularly proud of some of their exploits um we recent right so so we recently had the one a wonderful visit from the patriarch of Jerusalem who came and he blessed the the faith and it was a Fab it was fabulous he and he came all the way from
Jerusalem um just for to visit Durham to go to the cathedral to come here to do the blessing because Anthony Beck was the only ever English patriarch of Jerusalem and he wanted to recognize that fact I he knows the story so I didn’t need but and I didn’t feel it was right
To remind him that the reason Anthony Beck was patriarchal Jerusalem was because he led the blooming First Crusade conquered Jerusalem and appointed himself as um which doesn’t feel terribly holy um so um and I I do like the way that I think Anthony Beck is probably portrayed relatively well at kinran
Um his Holiness is not well for those you’ve seen it there’s a joke about his Holiness um uh so there’s that so you just can’t get away from all that history that’s of course not just true I have to say that’s true for for for Phillip and the cathedral and being dean
Of the cathedral it’s something about about so yeah so that hopefully that helps at least so the question is whether there’s any ancient rules pertaining to the principle going to affect the way that you retire um uh not that I’m aware of that anyone’s pointed out you w yourself
However there is one about the appointment of the new bishop which involves this man and the chapter actually um it is the Philip knows this better than I do but it’s the the the the oldest unresolved ecclesiastical law case in the land is between the de and chapter
Of Durham Cathedral and the Archbishop of York about who holds what are called the spiritualities of the dasis during a vacancy the dean and chapter claim that they hold them and the Archbishop York claims that he holds them and they have had a discussion I believe about this coming forthcoming
Vacancy so it is I I I am they last came to the high court in 18 90 with something called the June judgment it’s come back to the high court occasionally every couple of hundred years but we decided we’re not going to take it to the high court this time we’ve agreed on
The same person but um but it came I have to say for the sake of historical record the high court in 1890 found in favor of the Deon chapter but the didn’t like the answer so rejected it um but the case goes back to 1200 something
1250 or something like that so so that does affect um uh so we had to make a decision as our chapter meeting last week but the good news is that we all agreed that Bishop Sarah will be the acting Bishop ofor one of the slightly
More but but to go back to your question as well so one of the slightly more humorous moments I think during my 10 years was um was all around when Scotland was deciding whether or not it was going to go independent again and um uh people were were suggesting that
Perhaps some of the powers of the prince Bishop should if if they voted to go independent that some of the powers of the prince Bishop should be restored and perhaps that I should be given the the right to have an army to defend the Border yeah yeah and your own
Coining yeah that would go thank you other question yes thank you just just been asked recently time I’m interested to know what are your hopes um your thoughts this so um what are your hopes and what are your thoughts as you contemplate retirement well so I can give you one or two
Specifics and I again to live in newcom Trent so we’re going back to Nottinghamshire um uh and that’s partly pragmatic we have eldest daughter and two grandchildren in Middlesboro the other three children in London so we’re on we’ll stay on on the east coast line
We’ll be on the A1 so we can they can come up and down we can go up and down um uh and it’s a nice Market town There’s very other um so my hope for the first six so for for the first six months we’re going to
Move settle in get to know the new community I’m doing nothing public no public worship no public engagements and I have I’ve stepped down from uh every trust that I’m a part of um and uh I’ve said no to every invitation uh to take up anything new and I’m going to keep
Saying no until September um and then we’ll see what emerges um that’s it I I I think we have a deep sense that this is actually the next call on our lives this is not the you know I I I repeat to say I’m retiring as the bishop of Durham I am
Not retiring from Christian Ministry I am not retiring from my passions and commitments to children and young people and refugees and so on but how that will work out I have no idea and it’s both scary and exciting because I I know that under god there are things to do in
The future and it will be really interesting to see what emerges um the only I I said I’ve said no to everything there is one thing that I have said yes to um and that is uh that I’ve been asked if I will do some mentoring of uh
Bishops and clergy um there are two that I’ve said yes to already and um the bishop the current Bishop of Southern not who’s also Bishop Paul um uh has asked me if I would do that for some clergy in Nottinghamshire um but he and I have agreed that he’s not going to
Give anybody to me till September or October so me Mentor mentoring nurturing the Next Generation and Z will be part and parcel of it yeah question and then please and then to you yeah thank you what do you consider your legacy after 10 years do you know I hate the Legacy
Word I really I because someone asked me a couple of years ago you know what’s what’s your what’s your what’s your legacy I’m I’m not really interested in Legacy um so I the honest I I don’t I don’t I I don’t know I think it’s for others to to
Decide um I was at the Civic Society on Mon Monday night and someone said very kindly said said that that one one of the legacies that Ro that Rosemary and I together will leave is that we’ve been a bishop and Bishop outs who have fully engaged in the life of the Comm of
Bishop Orland and that we’ve tried to demonstrate that that’s that that’s important um there are a couple I that said um the House of Lords stuff is very interest there is there is one there is one reality that I I know is is down to me and my fighting
Um uh during all the immigration stuff and different different times there was there was one point where um I was working with an organization called talent beyond boundaries who are amazing they go into um refugee camps and they help people with professional skills um be able to gather the evidence
Because obviously sometimes when refugees sometimes they have to flee sometimes they in this instance they particularly in Lebanon and Jordan and many of them are syrians and um they’ve been bombed out so they didn’t have any of their paperwork they couldn’t prove that they were a doctor or an engineer
And so so what talent beyond boundaries do is they go in and they help people um get all the all the evidence that they can together to show that they equality ified engineer or a qualified teacher so and um I in one of the immigration I I I
Went to the the um home office uh minister in the House of Lords and said what about if we this country actually developed a Visa for refugees who are in camps who who it’s known would never be able to go back to their own country either because the persec persec or because their
Country’s been destroyed and have got the professional skills that are needed in this country could we not have a Visa for them to be able to come say we need we’ve got these skill gaps we need these people they are there they feel their lives are wasted at the moment because
They can’t exercise use them and and um uh to be fair to the to the government Min they they said actually we think you are you might be on something and they then they then said actually we don’t think we need a new uh a Visa we think
We can actually change the regulations on the work Vis on on tier 2 work visas to fulfill what you what you had in mind so we kept working with them and they worked on the regulations and and give give them the they they they did it and
Uh we had a reception um uh one day uh in the House of Lords to celebrate the first 50 who had come in on that on that route they were all health workers of different kinds and they were either syrians or Palestinians who you have to remember
You know there are Palestinians in camps still in Lebanon and Jordan who were thrown out in 1948 and it’s their children who were born in the camps and who’ve then had education and um the government Minister I didn’t know he was going to do this but the government Minister um turned
Around towards the end of the event and he and he just and he just he called me over and he said he said Paul I need to say to the people who are gathered here if it hadn’t if you had not presented the idea to us and had not just
Persistently told us this can work this would never have happened and um so yeah I I know know there’s there’s there’s over 500 people come in on that visa and they’re serving this country wonderful in healthc care in engineering and so on and and and uh it is a safe
And legal route to use it yeah yeah question here question back please yeah oh yes yeah oh well question so so the question is about some cusps in Darlington which has had a huge regener generation project James Harvey the vica Bishop Paul what what’s been your experience of
It what excites you about it so um a few years ago the the the National Church uh started making some money available through from the church Commissioners through What’s called the Strategic Development Fund um and one of the ideas was what what are currently called resourcing
Churches and um to cut the story short so we we’d hope and CWS would be one of the first ones and for various reasons we had to decide that it wasn’t right to proceed at that point but uh three or four years ago when um we were able to
Appoint James and he knew that we were going to explore this so what’s going so so what that’s enabled them so enabled them to do is um yeah increase the the the the Staffing but around particular things things so St kuspit darington town center next to the Civic Center and
So on so how do how do we help it revivify as a Civic church as a Town Center Church with a great Coral tradition and we don’t want to lose that Coral tradition so um part of the the the the the dream is is regrowing the coral tradition but not just the
Traditional church choir but so they one of the people they’ve employed is is a choir expert and she’s working with the local schools and helping them develop their choir and so so Gospel Choir other types of choir and singing so it’s growing through through music um we’ve
Also been able to put Steph price uh in there as associate Minister who uh we keep having to remind her and the congregation that she’s meant to spend most of her time not in church and not doing church services she’s meant to be out um doing things and actually she’s
Worked with um some local people and the local mp on a chapel in a in a c which is now coming back into life and so um so yeah it’s very it is it’s very exciting it’s it’s early and they’ve got a youth worker as well um and we’ve been
We put a a curate in there who’s um Iranian by background so it’s yeah it is very and but it’s a 10-year project um but it’s be yeah we’re beginning to see signs of real growth there’s a question at the back yes thank you hello Tom yeah that’s two questions two questions for
The price of one the first of all was uh your role in the coronation and uh the questioner said Tom said uh oh there’s our pool uh when you popped up on television tell us more about that and then a slightly more technical question about the mineral rights underneath
Weirdale which apparently are vested in the bishop of Durham and whether this constitutes the discovery of lithium there constitutes good news for not for you but for your successor um start where you want uh okay so um of course all those rights of the bishop of Durham got handed to the ecclesiastical
Commission in 1844 and then on to the church Commissioners so um not directly does it help the Bishop of dur all the dasis of Durham but it does help the church Commissioners um many of you may well live in in properties that are on land that was once held by the bishop of
Dorham and you might think you own the free hold look at your Deeds very carefully you probably own the free hold for the top six feet or maybe 5 MERS but everything lower than that if the church Commissioners have it they still own the mineral rights they’re very
Canny um so so in all seriousness Tom um yet actually the church Commissioners earn money every year from weirdale still from the stone quaring because because of the owning the underneath so I don’t I don’t know how much they get but they do so yes they will get money from the lithium I
Don’t it won’t necessarily be a fortune but they will have some rights to some of the income um on the um uh coronation um occasionally people would said would say to me oh when the queen dies uh which of course you’re not supposed to say anyway but but um uh
That you all be involved in the cor and I and and my answer always was um well historically yes that’s been the case but the king you know the Prince of Wales has always made it clear that he will be his own person and when when he
So I make no I I’m and I genuinely made no assumptions so even when the queen died um I still made no assumption about what would what would happen even though rather more people started saying to me are you going to be involved in the in the
Coronation um and then the the day of the coronation was announced not it wasn’t very long actually after the coronation dat was um and the reality is actually I I did have a message very soon after that from the Archbishop of Canterbury uh which was to say that the
The the king wished the bishop of Baron Wells and the bishop of Durham to know that he intended to keep with the tradition of having them as his assistants at the coronation but that we were not to tell anybody this because there were a number of other Traditions that he was not
Necessarily against to keep and that obviously he didn’t want some leaking out that were going to be kept um because of what um that might trigger so I had to get I was allowed to tell Rosemary but um uh and then um uh a little bit later actually um AR Justin
Justin said um could would you please join my little Planning Group for around the around the service so actually from early December onwards every week from 8 to 8:30 on a Wednesday morning I was on a zoom call with Archbishop Justin and about eight 10 others of us um planning
The planning the service together not writing the the Justin did that with a liturgist uh and with but but ideas about how might things might be done which was including things like how are we going to in a in a in a service which is a church of England service which is
A holy communion service how do you involve people of other faiths which doesn’t compromise their faith or compromise as the Christian place and and lots of ideas got floated around and we ended up with what I think was actually a very clever decision to involve five members of the House of
Lords one who was a Muslim one who was a Hindu one who was Jewish one who was seek um so who presenting something so they weren’t having to say anything but they were visibly seen to be there and it was made clear that they were from
Those faith and also this um greeting of the faith leaders at the back of the The Abbey after the service had finished and in in respect of the chief Rabbi and the fact it was the Sabbath for the chief Rabbi no microphones were there so that
He didn’t break any of his rule that was all done incredibly well and Incredibly s so I was privileged to be part of that um thing but I think that the thing that um surpris picking up your particular Point Tom that surprised me afterwards coming back here after that ceremony was
The number of people who said to me strangers who said to me as well um it was so good to see you as the bishop of Durham there it felt like the Northeast was present so there was something and I know talking to Michael who’s the bishop
Of bwells the S he had the same from the West country the West yeah the West yeah so yeah so that kind of representational role let’s go right back to Wendy’s question there is something about the representational role that this particular role has which uh stands out it was an enormous
Privilege and honor to do it great thank you thank you so do you have a you’ve been involved in youth work do you have a f message for young people involved in churches here in the region so uh so thank you um I recognize that it’s actually really tough being being a
Christian in in many of our schools now if when you’re young because um you are because you’re a minority and so on so um so I always want Begin by saying thank you for being faithful thank you for standing up for Jesus in your schools and your you grou
And and and and keep doing it and and keep being brave and and um God will honor that that and will sustain you so so um uh keep faithful that’s why you know and um and keep sharing the story of Jesus with with your friends in ways
That you know don’t put them off don’t bash them over the head with the Bible too often yeah thank you see the work of so you see the handy work of God in people who have no ostensible aens you know exens in terms of religious commitment what’s the church got to
Learn from their witness um and so for those who don’t know that that question’s come from father Dennis who’s Bishop orland’s wonderful Roman Catholic priest um and and it has truly then has been a privilege to know you for these last 10 years um so I so the church know needs to
Continually be reminded Ed that God Is Bigger Than The church and that the kingdom and reign of God is much much bigger than the church and the church has always been called to be a witness to God and God’s kingdom not to preserve itself as an
Institution but we keep I go back to my last thing we keep falling back into the human Frailty and weakness of thinking that we’ve got to preserve the institution and that the institution is really what matters um and if I dare say it your institution might have even more problems with this
Than mine but but we but we we we share them in common one of the reasons I believe that Pope Francis and Archbishop Justin get on so well I mean there an extraordinary relationship and friendship that they built it’s because both of them are big enough and honest
Enough to admit that they’re both leading institutions that have this inbuilt self-preservation and neither of them believe that’s what it they stand for um so I think that’s the big and and is is always to be uh we’re always to be called to be looking out for the signs
Of God at work in the world where we least expected and that God will often you know I it’s um if I go back to the children thing earlier and about how they sometimes they’re questions or their comments show depth of insight that they don’t realize they’ve got and it and
It’s that openness to God might choose to speak to me through a child or through someone else um one of my favorite stories is the is the the great story the call of Samuel when he was a child and Eli you know I didn’t call you go back to bed I
Didn’t call you go back to bed and eventually the adult realizes oh hang on God’s doing something here um yeah thank you yeah oh our chickens Thomas yes we only have the question is we’ve heard a lot about your spiritual life but tell us about the chickens uh
So we only have one hen left oh dear what’s going to happen well d one ask so so the really honest answer is that Ros and I have been desperately hoping she might die because it’s all a bit inconvenient having to move a hen and a whole hen
House down to a new house that we planned that there wouldn’t be any hens in the garden however when we went down last week we took our wooden hen house down it’s now at the back of the garden so that if she hasn’t died by the time
We move in the middle of March um she’s costing us everything now she’s produced one egg in the last four months I think it [Laughter] is we’ve got TI for probably one more question thank you so the question is about when you’ve had to sanction the closure of churches do a
Pastoral do a pastoral reorganization so that clergy are more thinly spread that can’t have been an easy thing to do what’s your Reflections on that uh no it’s never easy uh uh there is a misconception the bishop can never close a church Arch deacons can never close a
Church the dasis can never close a church the closure of a church I’m talking about church of England churches here um can only be made by the decision of the local parochial Church Council in consultation with the local community that then um has to be endorsed by a pastoral scheme by the by
Working with the arch deons and the and the bishop and so on now it would be un unfair to to give the impression by that answer that there aren’t times where it’s um it looks very obvious to some of us outside that actually there’s not much hope for the and and the arch
Deacon May well be the one who tries to help the local uh Church Council think through might this be the the way through but it is always very painful and and it and that the reason it’s always painful is because because of the nature of Parish churches and his the
History in this country that the the the Parish Church in a village or in a community has always stood for some for for for God and for God’s presence to the people of that Community regardless of whether or not they go and the and the closure looks like a message to
Say has the church abandoned us has God abandoned us so that that’s why it’s it’s very painful and very difficult um but sometimes that you know that that that decision has to be reached um and then then you try and do it as well as
You can and that’s um uh and and you have to try and think about fut one of the things you have to think is about future use so there there are very strict rules first you have to see if there’s an alternative Christian worship use so is there another Christian Church
That might take this on that must be always the first option um and then there’s other options uh that you can follow through if that if that’s not not feasible um and you always feel for the people involved because very often uh it’s because the numbers have
Gone very low but but sometimes those very last people of course have been the people who’ve been in that church for decades and served it for a long long time and they’ve given their all and have often really worked hard to try and turn it around
Um uh and yet clergy numbers have have reduced although um we’ve actually although they have reduced a a little bit in my 10 years in the dasis here we’ve actually held the numbers at a we we got to a point and we said we’re not going below those um Legacy last
Year um at the ordination of Deacons I ordained the highest number of deacons that this dasis has ordained in living memory and the average age was the youngest age in living memory so we’ve so so there are new people coming through I know Philip was training training them when he was at
Grandma Hall there are new people coming through and and here’s one of the extraordinary things for me at the in the mysteries of God in the Church of England um sometimes I wonder whether the Church of England’s more complex than God but but but no that’s sorry
Um at at the very time where attendance is declining and um we’re struggling with finances and postco that’s got that got wor got harder we’ve gone through a period where God seems to have called more younger more diverse people to offer themselves a Christian Ministry than we had done for a very long
Time so what’s going on and and I part of the answer for me is the some custm Darlings and holy TR Darlings there are new things emerging there are new ways of doing things emerging I can take you to churches you know St George’s Gates head um 2016 was
Down to around 15 16 regular worshippers I’ll take you there next Sunday morning you’ll see 250 people the average age will be early 30s loads and loads of families so so things do change things can change thing um the the the the problem at the moment is that the
Growing ones are not outdoing the shrinking ones um but but some I I genuinely believe that we can we can change things around um there is now absolute commitment from the church of England nationally to be more focused on reaching the younger generation again in
A way that we’ve not done as fully as we could so we are aiming at being younger and more diverse we’re putting more um energy More Money More resource into working with children and young people but it’s not recovering Sunday schools like they were in the 1950s and 1960s it’s
Saying how how do young people engage in life what are the questions so so it’s it’s it’s looking at ecological environment how are we helping them how are we helping young people work on that how we they love drama they love music so let’s do choirs let’s let’s have
Drama groups and so on let’s work through Sport and with Sport and and so on I um my son our our youngest son Andrew S I’m rambling now our youngest son Andrew is an an absolute nut for Laton orian he has been since he went
Since since he went as a as a little kid he’s now he’s now a journalist but he he volunte te uh every virtually every weekend when he can he’s doing stuff in the comms stuff for Lake noran um he introduced when they played harleypool um when they were both in the same
League they they they they went then went like that they one or went up and haryo went down so they’re not going to meet but we went and he said I’m going to introduce you um I want to I want you to meet the captain before the game so
We went down on the pitch and the captain came out and he and he wanted us to meet the captain because the captain’s a Christian and before Lon Orient started that football match half the team gathered around in the middle of field and prayed together there are nine
Christians in the in the squad at Lon Orient now these are you know 17 to 30y old young men absolutely dedicated to football but saying the most important thing in their life is is serving God and serving and and they serve Jesus as footballers so let’s let’s work through Sport and so on
And so that’s a great positive place to end I think um I’m going to be speaking for us all in a moment when I say thank you to Bishop not only for what he shared this evening although it we’ve been hugely humbled and grateful by your honesty your Clarity your obvious
Passion that remains undimmed from when you first yeah I’m no less I’m more do you know do you know what I’m more passionate now than I was when I was 16 but we’ll have a chance on Saturday those of us at the Cathedral to say thank you for your ministry but I think
All of us gathered here want to say thank you not only for what you’ve shared tonight but also what you shared over the last 10 years which has been consistently humble consistently committed not only to our local communities here in uh the dasis of Durham and the region but to National
And international communities as well you’ve been a friend to many of us you’ve been an encouragement to us all and a role model throughout our community Comm thank [Applause] you thank you colleagues it’s lovely to spent this evening with you we now have some Refreshments I you through in The
Bishop’s uh Hall so um you’re welcome to enjoy and if you want to have a a word with Bishop po I’m sure he be happy to do that can I say thank you very much indeed for coming tonight and being part of this special evening at the aom
Projects uh as Edward said earlier do come back soon and enjoy all this great in this place come durh cedral as well and God bless you can you’re welcome at Durham Cathedral 4:30 well I would come a bit before that but the service starts at 4:30 you don’t need tickets rent it’s
Open to anybody so if you want to Saturday yeah yeah hope