Link to the agenda: https://councillors.herefordshire.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=1159&MId=9190
Uh will be submitted as as part of the next schedule meeting for approval um because these two meetings have been held very close together um so we don’t have any minutes to approve uh right now um moving on to questions from members of the public do we have any questions
From members of the public uh yes chair uh a question and response has been published in supplement two to the papers uh and we also have Missi uh in attendance to ask a supplementary question um I I don’t recall having said it in uh in my my Chairman’s Tara ddle
But um can we make sure that um a member of the public is not uh on camera whilst asking a supplementary question um Miss Reed if you’d like to ask your supplementary thank you very much for attending hello can you hear firstly occasionally in the past information requests from the children
And young people scrutiny committee have not been timely dealt with in my public question I pointed out the report entitled children and young people directorate budget task and finish group was not on this meeting’s web page on the 11th of January 2024 at 1: p.m. today
It is still not on the meeting’s web page I notice the matter is also on the agenda of the children and young people scrutiny committee meeting on Tuesday 23rd of January 2024 but the report is not on that meeting’s web page website as at 1 p.m. today therefore
Understand that the report is late for that meeting in what way will the scrutiny management board ensure that in future reports Etc are available on time before its own meetings and other council’s meetings yeah thank you for your question Miss Reed and yes it is unfortunate that some of the meeting
Papers for today’s meeting um were delivered late and unfortunately it is a function of putting the budget together this time of year um and over the Christmas and New Year period um there is a lot of work to get through and um it does make it a struggle to provide the information um
In uh a timely fashion to be published as part of the agenda um you’re right we were planning on having the uh children young people’s task and finish group report coming to this meeting uh but similarly we’ve faced um difficulties getting the report completed and approved uh which is why it’s been
Placed on the agenda for the children’s scrutiny committee next week to take it directly rather than it coming back through scrutiny management board um The Hope and expectation is that we will have the uh report published uh before the weekend so that um committee members have the and the public have the weekend
Um and um Monday to look at it but unfortunately it is likely therefore also to be outside of the time frame for receipted public questions I don’t know whether there’s any scope to do anything about that um uh it would be unfortunate if it was going to miss the public
Opportunity to submit questions on the back of it twice um but uh I will look into that that and if there is any way of being able to accommodate public questions on it um we’ll make that clear when the report is is published uh we’ll make it clear one way
Or the other when the report is published um but thank you for your question um it is um the intention of this committee to um uh look at the whole cycle of uh budget scrutiny um at our March meeting for the coming year um and to make recommendations in terms of
How we can try and reduce the time pressures um that are created during the uh the budgeting process um in order to both improve public engagement but also uh reduce the pressures on officers and members in terms of being able to undertake um uh thoughtful development of the budget and and an appropriate
Level of scrutiny um and any public comment and uh suggestions associated with that would be welcome um ahead of our meeting so um uh i’ just apologize that we haven’t got the report to this meeting and that it’s going to be late to to Children’s also councelor Stark
You’re indicating here I don’t know what the protocol is chair since this has come about from a question from the public but my committee’s also got a report that is late I just wonder where this board wants to think about perhaps having a recommendation just to remind officers about the importance of reports
Being delivered to scrutiny in time so we have all the information that we need to actually have proper substantive discussions on the day chair yeah I’m I’m I’m happy to to to sort of take take that as a recommendation we also have have the chief executive and the leader of the
Council in the room today and whilst we are all very mindful of the pressures associated with developing uh the budget pack um it is an issue in terms of late reports coming to scrutiny which you know is not just associated with with the budget but is associated with um
Other committees and it’s something that has been experienced for a while so very welcome um taking making that recommendation and um officers seeing what they can do to um uh schedule things into the governance process and the forward plan appropriately uh Vice chair yeah just just to add it it’s
Actually a constitutional requirement to have our papers ready for public and um councelor um scrutiny and any questions that arise so to be back in line with the Constitution would be quite useful as well thank you okay and with that uh move on to questions from councelors oh sorry chief executive
Didn’t spot you there um I’m I’m aware of the um the lateness of the children young people scrutiny item but I wasn’t aware of the the other item you referred to if you let me follow that up and find out what’s getting in the way not withstanding the recommendation from the scrutiny um
Scrutiny management board let me understand what’s getting in way what’s gone wrong if it’s gone wrong here and see if we can speed that up um and we’ll come back to you informally as well confirm informally thank you thank you chief executive that’s appreciated and with that we move on to
Um questions from counselors um I don’t believe we have had any questions from counselors submitted so with that we move on to agenda item seven which is a continuation of um scrutiny of the draft budget um we have had two items deferred from the previous meeting which um
Covered the uh corporate element of the uh the budget and also the capital program I understand that some officers are not able to join us until um uh the second hour of our meeting so um happy to defer detailed discussion of the corporate element of the the budget
Until officers are able to to join us um we do have um the uh do we have a a running order for the um for the remainder of the uh reports that we’re looking at today yes uh chair we do so um to facilitate the uh later
Arrival of officers we’re going to take the capital budget first followed then by the medium-term financial strategy thank you and given the time pressures and that we don’t have a third meeting as a luxury to uh to defer items to um we’re looking at taking 20 minutes
Um max for the the capital program 45 minutes for the medium-term financial strategy Vice chair I’d appreciate it if you clock watched on our behalf I will thank you yeah we need to go we need to go yeah so turning to the capital program um have I got uh questions from
Um committee members on that item not cify again um thank you thank you chair I I just wanted to actually um look at the the the schemes that are quickly ask about the school’s accessibility scheme um and the children’s residential homes for 11 to
18 year olds so if if I could just have some uh sort of clarification about the school’s accessibility team what that um that’s a proposed addition um over the next four years sort of what what that covers and and also in terms of the residential homes um for 11 to 18 year
Olds there there’s obious a capital element but the um the revenue element of that is how you have we built in enough um capacity to be able to deal with that Revenue element of running that home so it’s it’s on it’s on page 89 of the um the capital investment Budget on
The on the web website um it’s under resource implications wrong button um councelor stodart thank you chair uh coun so firstly looking at the uh the school’s accessibility works that’s uh I’ve got that in my Capital program is the uh as having a total budget of 1.5 uh million p
It’s basically looking at nine children require adaptions into schools uh the schools at J attend have not been determined so we’re at the minute this is we’ve got nine children we’re looking to put into into schools we don’t know which schools uh and therefore it will
Not be known until next well not next now it’s this April uh in May uh ready for acceptance to school in the September term uh and that’s the plan that we’re looking for there uh as I say total of uh 1.5 million thank so so is is is that is is that
Actually a sorry is that a revenue cost or is that a is is that a that that that is a capital cost okay um and and then in in terms of the so so does that fall under the designated schools uh the DSG budget or does it sort of sit somewhere else
Where it’s under skills accessibility Works no it’s not part of YG no okay okay but it is to do with high needs yeah it’s it’s a it’s a high needs requirement all right thank you and uh and also just in terms of the um the revenue costs of the children’s residential homes if you could clarify
That please so the the second one you you’re referring to is the uh is the children’s residential homes for 11 to 18 year olds provider Source staff and Council purchased accommodation so that is effectively a um so that’s that’s a mixture of capital and revenue it’s
£24,000 of of uh of capital which is for the purchase and immobilization cost of the uh the 2 by two bedroom homes where you’re into is the revenue costs and again it’s 1.74 3 million for the running of the cost of that and that will be that’s a revenue cost and has
That been included in the in the children’s services budget is that that Revenue cost the running cost it has yes okay thank you very much Vice chair thank you and can you confirm that those Revenue costs were in the revenue papers that came to us last
Week yes sir Vice chair I can confirm that they’re in those papers yeah thank you um and and my other question going back to school accessibility so obviously we’re waiting on the allocation of the schools for the children that will be attending as they transition into that school um are
These sort of costs then recurring Capital costs for children as they transition to schools where they need adaptations so this we’re looking at a certain amount of children that we know that we’re going to have to help uh in the coming school year so are we um do we get to do we
Need to do this every year is this going to be an on ongoing cost where we need to adapt schools every year do we have uh an indication of what that kind of pressure might look to our budget it’s not a recurring cost it it is a
Cost for this year we’ve been informed that through education they believe there are nine this year uh and again next year we will then get the information back through from our Educators to say that there could be five or six or seven we don’t know yet but so there is a recurrence in
Potentially a budget line Y okay thank you but remember it’s a it’s a capital recurring cost potentially a capital recurring cost Council Stark I’ve got one specific question following on from a question that I raised on the on the 10th and then I’ve got a general question about relation of
The capital budget in total to the MRP I know chair that Strays into the mtfs but I think that’s inevitable when you’re talking about budget matters at the last meeting Council store that I raised the point about the additional um program that covered 550,000 being spent on Care
Homes I wasn’t aware that we had care homes that we were responsible for I mean Hillside I wasn’t I wasn’t aware that was actually described as a care home I’m concerned Council St that that these outlin business cases that presented before us and I’m just using that as an
Example really should have enough information so that we can actually interpret what exactly the money is been spent on because that is the only information that we have before us and I didn’t know about that and I’m still a bit perplexed about how we ended up
Having to spend over half a million on two care homes that didn’t even know were within our responsibility I think there’s a wider issue there that I would like people to consider the outline business case and ask themselves a question if I was one of the secy members would that be enough
Information for me to actually make makes sense of that particular spend CC store that so that’s my first point so can I confir your questions regarding the the actual title of the Estates building Improvement program 24 to 27 and the building works for the 2022 condition service that’s the that’s the
Item you there there’s an item for care homes in in that particular addition that we were given oh sorry y got it yep yep the 550k I it’s I I mean I got the answer at the last meeting Council store that that these were Care Homes that were within our responsibility although
I don’t understand how we’ve ended up with building costs that we’ve actually inherited from perhaps private providers but that may be for audit and governance to pick up but what I’m saying is Airline business case wasn’t sufficient for me to actually understand that that was the actual case and I just want
Officers to make sure that even though it’s only an outline business case I understand stand it’s not a full business case they they provide enough information so that we can actually interpret it when we come to read it okay well obviously the one thing we’re
Always Keen to do is to provide as much information we can uh so the aims and the objectives as it shows in the uh outline strategic business case are to ensure the council’s estate is maintained saves fit for purpose address identified risks reduce the revenue expenditure extend the lifestyle the
Life cycle secure better Services support the reduction of carb footprint and then support deliver of the county plan so that that’s what it’s what more are you looking for the individual specific detail of which each one of those items will will be well I didn’t know where the Care Homes were our
Responsibility I thought there might have been private providers responsibility and I’m still concerned about how we’ve ended up with this course H in in in our sort of um Capital program they are owned by us yeah now yeah I wasn’t aware of that that’s all
I’m saying can I take that maybe what we therefore might need to do is to inform all of our our uh council members of what assets we actually own uh I think that might be a prudent thing that we do because obviously whilst uh officers are aware and certain members are aware
Obviously yourself and others who who I’m sure are informed and uh um interested it may have slipped by Beyond them so would it be would you like us to take an action point to brief not just you not just scrutiny management but the all the whole Council
On what actually we hold by either a simple document to you would that be of use um I think seeing as we already published this information on the council website we have a a list of of all of the council owned assets on on the website it might be more helpful in
The context of putting outline business cases and full business cases together um for specific Investments that it’s made clear where we are making an investment in a property that we own or that we lease where we have um you know repairing lease responsibilities um there are some instances where we have made investments
In um developments for schools where we don’t own the buildings the schools are an academy um but we have other obligations legal obligations under which we are required to you know make these Investments or the Investments come through us from central government um I think one of the things that um we
Were reminded of by the council’s financial consultants link group um when we were um being updated on Treasury management is that according to sip for credential um treasur uh and treasury management codes of practice there’s an increased and increasing emphasis on governance and scrutiny around council’s Capital strategies um and that each council’s
Capital strategy um should contain and I’m just going to read read these through from from the consultant’s slides um an appropriate level of detail in respect of legal power for the capital scheme to be undertaken evidence of robust options appraisal work having taken place Cas consideration and quantification of the of sensitivity analysis
Outcomes impact of Revenue budget and balance sheet Resources section1 officer to vouch for the skill sets of external Consultants used um and committee members to be adequately briefed on any material risks and I think that kind of underpins and reinforces the point Council the St that you were making about the adequacy of
The information that was provided um so I think Mar where we have business cases for each line of the capital program has this information been provided and where could committee members expect to see this information in the cases provided to support the proposed additions to the program for 20242 thanks
Chair so I take from that what where we’re looking at on the outline strategic business case for the improvements in the the product aims and objectives you would like to rather than just saying it’s a program of work you’d like to know the specific buildings it’s
Going into is that is that the first point I think the requirement um in terms of um codes of practice are that this information is provided if it is provided it will be helpful to guide us to where that is in the documents that we’ve got before us
If it’s not provided can it please be provided for the the additions and can we receive assurance that all these requirements will be met before spending is sanctioned on any individual project within the capital program what I can say is that it’s it is an outlin business case um I accept
That we should in F full transparency we should have put in there that refer us to for example uh a care home inside Bank Road whatever but what would say is before any any expenditure takes place there will be a full business case and that will include all of that detail uh
So again I I hold my hand up I will we we we will speak and we’ll look to include a bit more detail into the the outline piece on it uh you you mentioned chair that about the strategy and the code can I remind you the specifics uh are not included
That code and that the it’s that what you’re what you’re calling from is is good practice off a bar advisor but we should look to do it thank you if if um if I could ask that the the provision of this information um you know is is in place
For the items that are live in our in our Capital program and that um uh for the additions that um it’s provided um and you know the degree to which it can be provided at outline business case stage I recognize some of the information can only be provided at
Detailed business case stage um but where it can be provided at outline stage that it is provided and maybe we have a checklist so that you know we can be clear that you know where the information is able to be provided at a particular stage in the um the
Development of of the business case and the justification for adding it to the program um I think the point about making sure that that all of the requirements have been met in terms of good practice before any spending is sanctioned on individual projects within the program um is also something that
It’s important that we receive Assurance on and um you know if if we could uh if we could put that down as a as a recommendation um I think that would be that would be helpful thank you I can guarantee that that as we say these are outline business cases and that before
Any spend decision then of course all the points raised will be included in the full business case as as uh We’ve alluded to wherever possible in the outline Str business case we will include more detail but for example in the previous example with the nine children we don’t know what schools
You are so minute it’s down to the parents when they raise the case through the education system that we actually pick up on that so at the minute we believe there’s nine but we don’t know what the schools are so that’s as much information as we have at the
Time thank you for clarifying that and before I come back to you councel are you are you wanting to follow up on this particular Point well I just want to make the point that in the absence of a county plan would align on the capital program in terms of almost having to
Understand why this expenditure is going on that that’s why I took a close interest coun to store that particularly in this one maybe too close of interest I’m sorry no there’s never such never such a thing as too close on interest that we’re very uh I’m very pleased to
See the interest being paid there uh you mentioned the county plan that’s very much work going on at the minute and of course tied into there will then come the delivery plan for the next year and as Council Chan and I have spoken about my intention is in that delivery plan
Will include the financial lines so we can actually see all the way through how that is delivered and how it’s set funded so that that’s work that’s ongoing and will be coming out as we as we know in the early part next next final year okay thank you um uh question
From me then um I I note that the the the administration is proposing to extend further the drawing forward of future years borrowing um as indicated in the table at paragraph 17 of the capital strategy which is on page 90 of the agenda pack from the 10th of January
Um please could you explain the thinking on this could you just confirm that’s the the taking forward of the the transformation of 1.6 million pounds is that that what you’re alluding to No it’s it’s paragraph 17 of the of the capital strategy report um and on P it’s on page 90 of
The uh agenda pack from the 10th of January sorry about that I was uh finding documents everywhere at a minute um wor but what I can say is that that is the that is the same plan that was in existence last year uh with the previous administration so there’s no change there
Uh well you’ve added a year on the end of it have you have you not through to 2027 28 but we all following the same principle we’re rolling forward yeah well for for the the the public and for this as a committee could you explain the thinking behind
That um ch the approach in um paragraph 17 the table there the principle is that we’re looking forward and this is full projection on our Capital program is looking about forward funding of those arrangements so the principle is the same that the previous budget was set on having longer term view about the
Capital program for the council capital projects are delivered over a number of years where our Revenue budget is linked to financial years okay so what what we have here is is a picture which fully commits the the present level of additional borrowing each year through to 2027
28 on the program as it is currently presented that’s correct okay um right I understand I understand that that that is what you’re doing um and I understand that it it it it continues um a practice that was introduced last year um now the um the capital program tends to underspend from one
Year to the next and there’s a carry there’s a carry forward um but I just want to highlight and give you the opp Unity to be clear in the room that the capital program that we’re looking at now with the lines that it contains within it commits the the borrowing the
Additional borrowing that this Council has under its current appetite for borrowing as far forward as 2728 is that correct yes that’s correct but again I would I would draw your attention back to other documentation it shows that we it’s prudent borrowing to deliver services but it’s also much lower than
Many many other councils it’s very much within the guidelines that our Auditors uh would put Mr lovegrove chair thank you and the Assumption about future borrowing for the 2728 year is baked into the mtfs which we’ll come on to later so that is built into the model it’s a very similar
Approach that was taken a year ago so the the meeting the assem for January 2023 at a table very similar to this obviously it’s just rolled forward again yeah and the only reason why I’m highlighting it now is because we will return to it in the context of the mtfs
And looking at our reserves later on in the meeting but seeing as we’re covering the capital program now it’s helpful just to set that out so that we can return to it under those other agenda items so thank thank you for that members have we got any any any further
Further question we’re going to need to to keep to time um councilors councelor St will you defer to councelor Chows for a moment councelor CHS thanks it’s just a a direct followup on on the issue we’ve just been discussing about the dragging forward of the borrowing from a previous year so
Directly comparing the approach taken last year with the approach taken this year last year it was not assuming that it would take all of the borrowing allocation from 3 years hence and put it in it was only partly so what’s happening is a ratcheting up of the
Level of borrowing from the future to the point where there is no capacity left for borrowing in three years time because it’s all been pre-allocated in in the intervening years is that not an a somewhat worrying Trend effectively borrowing from ahead ah head of ourselves over and above our annual funding
Limit to to reply to that Council I believe it’s it’s prudent because it’s factored into the mtfs so we’ve got a fiveyear four year plan ahead so we know what we’re factoring in but it’s factored into the mtfs in the sense that we have an annual funding
Limit but the only way that we’re you know nominally staying within that is by saying we’ll borrow everything for a 4year period period in the first 3 years and we’ll leave ourselves no capacity to borrow in four years time that’s going to get us into trouble in four years
Time when we will still be needing to borrow presumably for things that people want to do should we not be aiming to live within our means from year to year chair and the approach that you’re seeing in front of you is exactly the same as adopted a year ago so a year ago
The budget that was put forward to council was assuming that all of the Bor four years was drawn down so I think factually um that was the position that was year so what you’re seeing in front of you is exactly the same approach dra for a year and it’s further 6,000 6.7
Million addition con as you as you say we’re looking forward but you mentioned that it may not be it may not be fully spent anyway so we could roll that forward in those future years it’s PR I just believe it’s very prudent that we have this in place and in in that
Transparent that that we very much in this Administration wish to we have adopt and we’re taking forward as we are now uh to show uh our our workings for the future wrong button um yeah I take your point councelor stoda and your point C Mr Mr lve I think the the concern is
That in the absence of a new County plan which you know all other things being equal we would have had coming forward Ward alongside this budget to provide the um the policy and the priority framework within which we could look at the budget um what we’re what we’re kind of uncited as
To how the the the next four years in terms of County priorities looks with respect to this as a four-year View of the capital investment program pulling forward funding to enable more capital projects to be started sooner in order to be able to deliver infrastructure and improved um Community
Capacity for Heritage here is not necessarily a bad thing but I think the points that councelor Stark and others have made about doing about reviewing this budget in the absence of seeing a a county plan which sets out that four-year view um does somewhat Fetter our ability to see the the context
Within which this plan is presented the challeng is always going to be in that first period the first year of of any Administration especially with the change of administration is that we may we we’re going to be redoing that new County plan uh and therefore I can give
You the assurance that we’ll deliver it as quickly as we possibly can uh as we as you recall back to the November meeting where we we’re talking about the future plans for the uh the county plan I quite agree that that we in the best in in the perfect world it would have
Been here the reality is it’s not but it will be in as soon as we can yes I mean the the thing is when we discussed it in November and we recommended that you maybe rethought your time frame in order to be able to allow some more meaningful
Time for public con consultation the expectation was that it would slip in terms of coming to council from the budget meeting in February to the council tax setting meeting in March however since then we have been advised that you are as an Administration not in a position to be able to bring the
County plan forward until the annual council meeting in may now so that’s a yet a further time slip in being able to to provide a county plan to you know this committee and to the council more and the and the county more more generally now there’s probably very good
Reasons why that that slippage has occurred however that’s not the position that we were anticipating to begin with we were hoping when we put our program together in July that we would have it alongside the budget and we offered a slippage in order to to improve public engagement on
This important 4-year plan for the whole County um and we just got to slip again so I think the committee is sympathetic however it is you know it is in we’re keen that it is acknowledged that it is providing a difficulty to us in looking at this budget and more
Generally it is delaying setting out clearly what the priorities are of this present Administration uh members I think in order to try and keep the time we’re going to have to uh to to move on to the next agenda item which is medium-term financial medium-term Financial strategy
Which we have allowed a bit a bit more time for um so uh we we did receive this document late however members have considered it o over the weekend um and we have a number of lines of inquiry that we’d like like to pursue on this so starting with councelor
Stark I would refer to a specific paragraph um later on but I just want to raise a general point about the whole governance of this change from the mtfs in one year to the mtfs in another year against the context of a change Administration um Chief
Ex what is your role and the cft’s role in terms of overseeing the the actual construction of the mtfs when there is a change of administration I mean do you actually give a steer to to those working on it as to what your priorities might be in terms of as it
Can only be chair the existing County plan is that how you actually gave a steer in terms of the mtfs for this year for 2425 I’m just trying to get an idea of what your role is in it and what the slt’s role is in it in terms of
Constructing this mtfs when we only have a county plan to 2024 and therefore we’re trying to set an mtfs for Way Beyond that I I think to prefer in terms of my role as chief executive and CT’s role in constructing the mtfs um I SP in the first instance
Guided by the um the Director of Finance in terms of the financial context in which the council’s operating and and the assumptions it will be making in taking that Mt mtfs forward um based on the um the the principles that are set out in the 2425 budget um and in many respects those
Things that we know and have been confirmed about future funding so there’s a series of assumptions that we base the mtfs upon um that particular detail um Andrew as the Director of Finance is the one who’s is a guardian of that particular detail but it it is
It is very much around balancing the budget for 2425 and there’s a draft budget proposal that does that and then taking that forward in terms of an mtfs B based on the known assumptions that are being made and those things that we know are going to happen over the next three
Years the life of the mtfs in terms of um pressures on the revenue budget Andor Revenue costs associated with capital developments and you can see that’s that’s been set out and I think if you you look at the detail um and on the basis of the budget that we’ve um that’s
Been put forward for 2425 and then the mtfs and the projected funding Gap through to 2728 you can see how that those assumptions have come together um in terms of the Surplus or Gap in the forecasted budget over the next three years so there’s there there’s no drive
From you and your service directors to actually set out what you might think would be a notional budget without without having to think about the constraints in finance that if you wanted to have a certain level of Service delivery for example and I and I’ll I’ll go into that in terms of the
Shape of the budget do you actually have any discussions with say your corporate director for saying what would we like to be actually delivering this year and what would be the the underlying cost for that and then go back and say to the director Finance this is what we would
Like to spend but what are the constraints that you’re going to give us in terms of what we can spend through you chair I mean as I said in terms of setting out the the parameters for the MTF FS the very much grounded in the 2425 budget that we’ve
Put forward this time and you’ll see kind of the growth that’s been put forward within the economy and environment Department in terms of additional capacity and resources um the additional funding to support the development of a prospectus for hure and also development of funding to provide the development of um
Employment land so in the in in in supporting the opportunities for growth and increasing the level of growth that we would like to see possible that’s baked into this year’s budget and will continue to roll forward um into future years I think you’ve got to see that in
Terms of the provision for economy and environment in line with the kind of allocations within the capital program um and the capital program which has identified the investment in model form um in the shy Hall and the library and learning facility uh and the new developments that are going to come
Ahead in terms terms of accommodation at the football club and so you you I think it’s important to see um the investment in Revenue through the mtfs and the delivery of a capital program and the growth program that’s been put in place uh and the priorities which have been identified
Um and equally you’ll see the investment that’s coming through an employment land for um model farm and the investment that’s coming through in terms of the market town it isn’t just one piece of work on its own J if I can interject as well picking up on the C’s uh points
So the capital program was produced the revenue budget has been produced they’re linked the capital the uh the county plan is in production and they’re all linked as you know to growth investment in our people and and uh infrastructure so that’s the key things that will come come through on the county
Plan um I I accept the the logic of what you say both of you um but if you look at the net revenue budget allocations that we know they’ve been going down in terms ofe and I really want to understand what sort of constraint that might prove if you take the corporate
Allocation as a unit of one then adults comes at 3.1 children’s at 2.4 and E ande at 1.1 now I I accept that on top of that you might have grant funding you might have a capital investment but the resources to manage that throughout the year must
Be impacted by the amount of Revenue that we set aside to cover staff costs and and and school sets and things like that so I I just feel Chief EXA and and and and correct me if I’m wrong I just feel that the balance of this Revenue
Budget for whatever reason is is really unfair for most of our residents because we’re putting less and less into the area that most of our residents get the return for the council tax that they pay which ISE now I understand the statutary constraints but really we have to ask
Ourselves how we have got into a position we a 245 Revenue budget has adults at 3.1 children’s at 2.4 at just over 1.1 and with corporate almost the same size as E ande I mean that’s my concern chair thank you councelor I appreciate your your
Your comments and uh a lot of that a lot of your frustration that you you share is is shared on this side of the table as well uh but that’s it’s a statutory requirement of what we have to provide that’s what we have to do uh and there
Is no option there statutory Services Adult and Children’s economy and environment certainly as some aspects of it are statutory but some are discretionary and therefore that’s unfortunately what we have to then look at that’s that’s the that was part of the the hercul in discussions that we
Had all the way through from August onwards as we were looking to put this 24 25 budget together and we had many comments where frustration was shared and my cabinet colleague my left was saying well but we have to provide this this is it’s not optional we have to do
It chief executive yeah I think we need to remind ourselves of the success of the council in securing external funding whether it’s the stronger towns funding which has come into Herford city as a whole or whether it’s the leveling up funding that’s coming in terms of the the active travel initiative or whether
It’s a more recent announcement you know through um through Network North and the additional funding which is coming in to support our highways budget um so it it isn’t just about the council’s funding as a whole it is about external funding sitting alongside the capital program aligned to delivering those corporate
Priorities and I think also in terms of the work we do as we did last Friday when we met the chair and chief executive of Midlands connect to Midlands engine to set out the priorities that we have across Herer and how with their support we can move quicker and faster in terms of
Delivering those um and I think one needs to bear in mind that with those Capital initiatives and those capital sums comes an allocation for the delivery of those projects in terms of the program management Arrangements um so the that’s built into that particular budget program I think for the first time um in
A number of years we’re now having a further investment in the ene directorate with additional capacity and resource going into support the the development of the growth initiative um and we need to kind of make sure we we we spend that money well and get the very best of that alongside delivering
The prospectus and the development AC of employment land across the county so I think there’s a lot to be played for I think equally we’ all want to do more uh but I think equally it’s about living within M our means and delivering an ambitious program both through Revenue
Capital and external funding that’s also supported by government Cabinet member thank you chair uh picking up on the C’s point there uh Council star it’s the revenue budget we’ve put together is a balanced budget uh it’s it’s something that we can be very uh it’s a draft
Sorry but the draft Revenue budget we put together which is still for the still engaging in discussion and and consultation but it’s a balanced budget it it it it’s it’s achievable it’s achievable because the cabinet members and the the directors of each of the services together working together have
Guaranteed have assured that we can provide those Savings in that budget to in that Revenue budget to do that moving on to the mtfs we’ve got an mtfs that looks out over four years that actually shows a positive step and finally we’d like be looking at potentially this next
Coming year we’ll then be looking to put some money back into reserves which is something that we have not done for a a considerable period of time so I agree with your point that it’s we have you we’re we’re constrained under what we have to put into our Revenue so our
Revenue budget but it’s it’s there is some good news here and that looking around the rest of the country is actually something that’s pretty unique so I think we should it’s something to be celebrated and uh and uh and congratulate ourselves on thank you leader thank you very much chair and I
Conc with the comments that have been made but um it my take on it councelor Stark and I I remember you and I were at scrutiny meetings in previous years and and you eloquently made the the point in previous years that less and less was being spent on environment and on
Economy whilst the other budgets continued to grow there’s two comments I would say in in in reference to that this time round when I don’t find myself in scrutiny I find myself putting forward a budget and one of the things I’m you know I learned as a as a ward member is that
Every time you talk to members of the public they were very concerned about the lack of more investment in roads so that the we put forward the Capital program to put forward much more investment in Road resurfacing so the environment and and uh is getting substantial amounts of
Investment um um and and I think that’s a really positive thing uh that that we should really focus on and be grateful for because that’s that was the the way that most of us felt we should go and that’s a great investment and that’s on top of the investment that will be that
Was spent uh that will be spent this year on what they call service dressing um but the the other issue to really grapple with is is children’s services and really really fund that Improvement plan we we’re a year into that but we can’t look back now which is why there’s
A significant investment more investment in children’s services in this budget but the the the strategy for that is to invest that money so that in times to come when we have a better service that’s more stable and even and achieving the things that we wanted to ACH achieve rather than reacting to
Improvement and and crisis mode if I can say that is is funding a Serv service that we want to pay for because it’s the size and the shape it should be given the the requirements of of children’s services so extra investment there but I would not want to see extra extra extra
Investment it’s got to be within a time frame that meets with the Improvement plan that’s the goal that’s the strategy so there’s extra investment there which is making it Eclipse economy and environment but as I say there is investment in environment and economy uh through the capital program and of
Course we want that Improvement plan to stick so that we don’t have to keep increasing the amounts we spend on children’s services thank you thank you lader um it if I if I could turn for a minute to um Annex B to the mtfs which is on page 13 of the
Supplement that was published um to the agenda papers um this is a a useful um table in terms of summarizing um where we think the money is coming from and uh what we think the um uh our expenditure uh top level lines are going to be um looking ahead four years um
Now one of the things that was FL in the medium-term financial strategy last year was that without um management action there would be something like a 16 million pound Gap over looking ahead four years in terms of where the income was coming from however what also happened was a recommendation went to
Full Council that this Council give the 12 months notice statutory notice that was required in order to put into place um uh a council tax premium on second homes now the the the downstream income that is derived from that is able to be recognized in this table here and across
The the three years that the table is showing it coming in it’s a little over 19 million pounds that we anticipate being able to generate through applying that second homes premium um now that that effectively more than closes the uh the 16 million pound Gap that because Council hadn’t
Taken the decision yet to um to go ahead with um giving notice of that premium those figures could not be included in the mtfs that was published last year um um so now we’re looking at there being um a a gap of uh some two million pounds
1.9 million um looking across the four years which is a much improved position um a but it is very much predicated on that second homes premium and the prediction that we have in terms of the revenue to be generated from that um being able to realized now we’re not
Anticipating that coming in until um 2526 however we have seen slippage in terms of some of the other um uh income changes that um this table anticipates uh for example the social care support Grant is extending an extra year compared to the mtfs last year and the
Revenue it being rolled into the the revenue support Grant is not now anticipated until 2627 now are those figures the consequence of updated information that we’ve got from government in terms of when those um those uh changes in terms of our funding um are going to uh are
Going to to take effect or is this just an updated prediction that we’re making ourselves on the matter I’ll I’ll defer across to Mr to respond thank you through you chair the settlement we had the draft settlement because it’s still only a draft settlement from govern just before
Christmas is a one-year settlement um I’m conscious I think this is the fifth or sixth year we’ve had a one-year settlement from government so as we we’ve discussed before the mtfs the future years there has to be an element of a informed decision an estimate based on what the information that we’ll been
Receiving from the civil servants and our retained experts so what you’re seeing in the table Annex B is that forward projection of where people we being advised and the information we’ve had from civil servants as you can see that assumes various things about grants and then being combined into um a
Combined revenue support Grant rather than individual grants so that that’s our based on our best advice at the moment um it is an estimate 234 of an NP has by definition have to be an estimate in the absence of a further than only a oneyear settlement okay sorry just on the point
Of the second homes um Arrangement a year ago the left up act wasn’t it still a bill and it was still in draft we’ve now had since last October it has become an act so the legislation has been passed which will enable that to be implemented and as Council you said last
Year agreed the policy to implement it there’ll be a further paper coming to um the council meeting on the Night February asking Council to reaffirm it’s commitment to that policy that that’s good to hear but um you know given the the um uh the importance of of that new income stream
In terms of closing the the Gap that um that is is highlighted um presumably there is activity that is going to need to take place in the coming year in order to be able to realize that income the following year yeah there’s an awful lot of activity that as you can imagine is
Going on behind the scenes and we’re talking to other councils um affected by this so North Yorkshire colell the lakes on there it’s a national issue to go through and identify which properties meet the definition of second homes and to the moment those people on those
Don’t have to tell us they second home so we’re waiting for the guidance to go through we’re also working through our own Arrangements how we as a council uh through our collection service will identify those properties and what steps we’ll put into place to identify people that maybe aren’t telling us the full
Truth if that’s the pl way putting it and making sure that we collect the right of about attacks well it’s uh it’s it’s good to hear that we’re in a position to be able to make progress on that because um do do we have a a plan be if um this income
Doesn’t um come to to fruition and in terms of where we’d be looking to um deliver the income to narrow that Gap or is are all our eggs in this basket um chair it is a form of Taxation so if Council reaffirms its policy to charge for second homes it becomes a
Legally tax that has to be chargeable and as officers we have to collect so in terms of the arrangements if the the property and the way it’s owned and the way it’s operated meets the definition the tax is due and we will ensure that we collect the tax through our normal
Processes we do any other element of the council tax or business ranges excellent okay well let’s cross our fingers and toes in terms of uh getting the vote the right way um from Council um hopefully we don’t change our minds on that and that our um our and
Our forecasts in terms of what we’re uh what we’re expecting to get in terms of second home ownership in the county um actually come to fruition Vice chair thank you chair um I think some of the questions that I’ve got are very much around the uh identification of the
Financial risks in the medium-term financial strategy for our budget um because obviously the ability to uh recognize and mitigate risk gives the Credence and assurance that the figures themselves are correct so the first thing that did alarm me uh was when we had the risks that came with the original
Draft Budget on the 10th of January as I pointed out at the time we had rather alarming phrase under not delivering the inquired improvements in children’s which is on original pack page 18 which had a three-year strategic and financial plan has been developed to ensure the children and young people’s
Directed directorate is able to live within its means after three years has now been changed in table for to um able to deliver current servings over the threeyear period so that’s my first thing but so my concern then is we we’ve looked at an awful lot of papers uh last
Week that and now I’m seeing changes which I wouldn’t have expected to have seen in in tables that I would have thought would have been is that me or you um I also note in that table now we have um a further risk under DED dedicated schools Grant which wasn’t there before
And I understand Council Fagan’s probably got some questions that she wants to ask about this um and my third point is that I want to make again this week uh under the heading for interest uh under the uh heading for potential overspend um a non- delivery of savings
We’re just talking about the high risk budg areas we have such a major program a transformation um and Thrive which we’ll be coming on to when we look at corporate budget my questioning is um why if we’ve got a a a large amount of money and transformation riding on
Particular project why isn’t it specifically mentioned in there but but these the so these are my my main points um I find that the changes that have been made to a table that I would have expected to be pretty much a mirror image of itself doesn’t give fill me
With confidence that the you know the page the papers are just changing every time we see them uh counc thank you uh first of all you the me you mentioned you hope the figures are correct what I can I can give you the assurance that the financial team the figures are as best
As they can be based on the current information available to them today because anything that NTFS is a projection and we don’t know what will happen in the future it’s based on good uh good practice uh as I said before Herer Council have been uh congratulated for their governance and their the level
Of their uh their detail uh from Grant Thornton moving on to the the point about the updated documents uh I believe that’s it was updated following discussion last week to make sure it’s most current and up to dat I’ll pass across to in that case why why would we
Given no um track changes document or any uh pointers to say what has changed thank you the the document that you referred to last week was the Financial Risk table in the draft Revenue budget for 2425 this table refers to the mtfs financial risks um the the there are two changes as you’ve
Pointed out the first change is to clarify the point that you raised last week um and when we present these documents to cabinet on the 25th they will include some updates as well to reflect the the outcome of the public and online consultations and the final settlement that was received in December
So there will be updates to these and we will make you aware of those but the DSG risk is in reference to the statutary override that ends in the medium-term financial period not in the 24 25 Revenue budget so it’s it’s to expand on the risks that are relevant over the medium
Term CH do we need track changes then if we’re going through three meetings or three three scenarios of different pages yeah I think I think it’s important that as the picture becomes clearer the officers are working hard to give us the most upto-date picture and I think that
Is to be commended did and we appreciate that um and we’d expect that that you know the latest picture is provided I think track changes helps to identify um where those changes are um in what is quite a complex um pack of documentation um and I think for members
And for the public um being able to have some version um control in terms of um updates uh would be helpful in order to keep everybody um on the um you know on point in terms of the most upto-date information I don’t know how difficult that is to
Achieve um but if it is achievable it would be much appreciated and I think it will be helpful for the public and and for members Mr lovegrove CH thank you that I’m very happy to look at the check track changes and as we said that will
Appear in the cabinet paper but this is a the first time you’ve seen this document it is different to the revenue budget documents so there isn’t a I don’t think we do a track change is because this is the first time we’ve seen it that that that’s understood that’s understood thank you
Leader yes thank you and um on the bit that um councelor Bartlett has read as it being different but she hasn’t seen this document before I think officers were trying to reflect on your comments about living within its means didn’t really encapsulate properly the the sentiment of what was trying to be
Achieved by that sentence so when it came to do the uh mtfs those that thought process was taken on board so you know it was really useful feedback at the time so that when when we come to uh phrase this matter here it it goes back to the point I was making earlier
About our ambition for children’s services is to have that level of expenditure and investment that is appropriate to a council our size with with the challenges we Face rather than having a a service that we’re paying extra for because it’s in need of improvement so you know if
There’s another way of articulating that sentiment then I’m i’ be I’d be it’ be really helpful to uh to hear that as well thank you thanks and if if we could if we could turn to the the the planning assumptions in the in the mtfs and the
The table that you’ve got in terms of key assumptions by by budget area um the uh the inflation assumptions um that you’ve got for for contract inflation for the council um seem to be broadly mirroring the predictions that are out there for um inflation generally the CPI type
Inflation um previously we’ve been told that um the way that inflation hits the kind of services that the council delivers isn’t necessarily well matched to um the shopping basket um way in which the CPI is constructed um we were making assumption last year which actually in in a in a bigger
Version of the mtfs than we have before us now and I know that officers have tried to slim the document down in order to um make it a bit more understandable and a bit more focused but inevitably it loses some of that detail as a consequence um we were actually
Showing um how inflation hit our different directorates and service areas differently and then providing an overall kind of um average position that took into account all of those uh differences and some of them are quite Stark you know sort of into double figures for uh inflation in in hitting
In some in some areas partly because of when the contracts are up for renegotiation and that sort of thing so I’m just wondering uh whether there’s any comment to be made on uh why you’re choosing to make make the assumptions in terms of future years really kind of
Mirroring CPI rather than taking that rather more nuanced approach that we had in the mtfs last year uh pick up your point chair about the uh the impact of inflation uh having gone through that process with all the star Chambers and with uh the various uh cabinet colleagues the impact of
Inflation as as you say it it varies so CPI is dropping down but we’ve got H hangover inflation because we’ve set the contract rates previously uh and that had a significant impact when we then looked at uh the derivation of this year’s Revenue budget but we’ve been we
Had to then incorporate that including then the uh in addition the uh the realterm living wage because although we don’t pay that we pay more than that some of the contracts we’re using do include that so we had to include that into our Reven budget as well so that
Was that was two of the factors that actually uh were a challenge for us as we put together this year’s Revenue budget uh I’ll now turn to uh uh Mr over to address your issue about the rate of inflation that we’ve chosen okay thank you
Um chair as you mentioned uh a year or so ago we were quite nervous about what inflation will be we’ve been through that inflation cycle on there um there is a school thought I’m not sure whe I subscrib to it but the construction side of things is actually slowing down at a
Quicker rate than people were expecting to the CPI measures so there is some evidence that because of the slowdown in the housing market there is Surplus capacity in the construction industry both in terms of labor and material as we look for for the next 18 18 months
Sorry those arrangements um so what You’ seeing here that we are mirroring broadly with CPI on the basis that that’s a balance where quite rightly say CPI which is a basket more of household goods tend to not the sort of things we buy but it’s a good proxy at the moment
For those inflations otherwise we could have the argue is we would have lower rate of inflation which is probably not The Prudent thing to do so it is quite a difficult challenge to put it forward for inflation okay but the inflation assumptions that we’ve got here are very
Different from the ones that we had in the mtfs last year they’re rather more optimistic than um our our inflation um assumptions last year and given that inflation has you know an immediate effect on um you know our purchasing on a on a on a daily basis
I’m just kind of wanting some assurance that this more optimistic profile in terms of the assumptions for future years is robust I’m I’m happy to my view is that this is a robust set of assumptions and the world has moved on significantly I know it’s only 12 months ago but we
We’ve been through an inflation cycle um if you recall a year ago we were very concerned that that inflation would actually be a multi-year Arrangement it’s a smaller Arrangement um we’ve taken expert advice as well into supporting this and we have done some sensitivity analysis so I’m conf it’s a
Reasonable assumption for inflation um the only way really knowing is in a year’s time when we look back and see how we performed indeed I mean I did I did have a look at the um the the council tax base going back to uh 2017
2018 um to uh to to take a look at whether a 1% uplift year on year was reasonable and it Jolly well is um so you know despite um everything that’s been going on since back then covid and floods and problems with our with our river systems Etc um you know 1% does
Seem to be um a prudent assumption when it comes to um uplifting our council tax base um alongside even the continuation of the 100% council tax discount for um the hardest up households so um you know that that’s that was that was good to test and good to see that um you know
That that’s a a positive that we can build build into our our assumptions and um you know please pleased to see that um before I go to councelor Stark who’s indicated um just a comment on fees and charges back in November at the uh SMB meetings where we looked at uh at income
And charging um we did request that there was detail provided as part of the budget work to actually show where the income is um in detail against the the the service areas across across the council given the statements that we’re making about how income and charging is provide is becoming an in an
Increasingly important part of how we balance our budget um and i’ I’d like to ask um well we haven’t had that information and it was something that we reminded officers of when we had the meeting last week um neither have we had the information specifically that we
Requested back in November and last week about the tie up between um the income the net income derived from um car parking and the very specific range of public realm and transport related services that that income supports the delivery of in year and how you propose to manage that dynamically in order to
Neither overd deliver on income or overspend on the provision of those Services which is supported by dynamically by the trans by the um the the um car parking uh income which is uh which is collected I know car parking is a very emotive subject for our residents
And it’s important I think that we demonstrate how we use that income in order to support transport services and um public realm and Highway Maintenance uh Services which um you know either support or offset the impact that cars have um on our road networks moving around or give people um alternatives to
Using the car um so can I please ask again that that information is provided um ahead of the papers going to um cabinet and to full Council so that we can see where the income assumptions are at service level um across this budget thank you J uh the request is
Acknowledged and uh currently officers are working on it so we should be able to provide that for you in the timeline that you’ve uh requested thank you councelor Stark thank you chair I’ve been too quiet for too long obviously um I want to go back to anxp and mtfs please chair you’ve already
Mentioned the funding side but what concerns me is the expenditure side and some of the assumptions that made there can I just start with Children’s Services invisible savings this year which is now shown as a dash for 2324 but which represented 9% of the budget when it was originally uh put
Forward kind of ask the chief EXA whether he and his uh CLT team get monthly reports from the program board if it does meet monthly councelor po about assurances on what has happen to these savings and about the general transformation that needs to happen because chair we have then for three
Years beyond that another 10 million savings that we’ve got to take at face value here but which we haven’t got any track record that they’ve been achieved in the past that’s my first question and then then I’ll go into General question about savings and then the demand and pressure side if that’s all
Right through through you chairman in terms of the role of CLT um and myself and the Director of Finance in terms of monitoring progress against savings yes there is a a monthly report that comes to CLT um which is scrutinized by CLT as a team in terms of
Um the delivery of Sav in year um and also the delivery of um the budget to live within the means of it for each directorate and that happens on a monthly basis um in addition to that there are a um there have been weekly budget review meetings between myself
And the Director of Finance and the respective corporate director and in addition to that all of the last three months there have been uh regular star Chambers as we call them involving the cabinet member um to do two things one is to get have a close range look sorry a close range
Look at the in-year performance delivery of savings the reasons why that’s not happening and where it is and also the ability to deliver within the means of the overall budget and secondly at those meetings to look at the proposals for the 2425 budget both in terms of savings to be
Achieved um the unfunded pressures which have been identified by corporate directors that are needed to deliver the service within a particular area and the mitigations to how we might deliver those so I have to say there is quite a full program of eyes on financial performance both on a close- range basis
With myself the Director of Finance and and the respective corporate director at a corporate at a corporate leadership team level and at a Star Chamber with the respective cabinet members and that happens the same same for each of those areas in Children’s Service I think the particular detail around the delivery of
Savings that were identified for both Placement Management and Recruitment and Retention has be gone in has been gone into in some detail um uh with the respective director and colleagues from the finance team and I wasn’t expecting to go through that particular detail but
But the eyes on um and my role as chief executive um and the and the political leader ship is certainly happening um and we are as concerned as all in terms of where we are as ever as we said at the scrutiny meeting we need to take
Account of what’s happening in terms of The Wider context of children’s services and the ability of all the other service areas across the council to kind of live within their means and the cash limited budget and deliver the savings that are that have been set out within the
Overall budget in year so we minimize the pressure going into the 24 25 budget can can I continue chair with this line of question yes and then uh after you it’s councelor Crockett yeah I’ll try not to be too long then we have total savings Beyond The Children’s Services
Directorate of 20 million or at least savings and mitigations I think I don’t know whether that would be transformation and it spe which then Rises to 24 million Chief exact in 2425 that is quite a high number in in terms of the overall budget what sort of actions does the CT
Take in order to ensure in year that if there is slippies and savings what adjustments or changes in Direction can be made because it seems to me that with a total of 26 million plus in 2425 I’d be very much surprised if that was achieved B on the track record we’ve had so
Far I think if you look at the track record so far whether that’s the track record which has been verified recently by gr Thorn to another annual audit and the council’s ability to deliver on its Savings Program and to provide the auditable plans which set out how those
Savings are to be achieved which has been externally recognized as kind of a strength of the local Authority or the work of individual corporate directors who if they’re not able ble to deliver Savings in one particular area because of circumstances then they’ll look to find Savings in other areas you know the
The fundamental challenge for me as chief executive with with corporate directors if circumstances have changed and we’re not able to deliver a particular line on the Savings Program then what else can be done to allow those savings to be achieved um and I think you you will need to acknowledge
That um in the current year not all of the savings have been achieved as per the original Savings Program um and things change and sometimes that happens but all of the areas except for children services you know we are fully committed to those savings the level of savings
That required to be delivered and that those directors will live within their bottom line that is that is our strategy for the in for in year and achieving that position in year and from the monitoring meetings that we have both on individual basis and through the corporate leadership team you know we
Fully expect that to happen unless something significantly changes thank you chief executive I mean it is a massive caveat that you put on what you say by saying excluding Children’s Services because actually it’s children’s services that are the really big problem here you know with zero of their savings proposed for this
Year actually being delivered despite assurance is being provided to this committee this time last year that um delivery plans were in place for all the savings that were being proposed as part of the budget and you know the the it seems clear that service areas certainly throughout the entirety of
This financial year have not provided feedback on what their plans are for delivering those savings and those savings are exactly the same savings areas that are proposed to deliver two and a half million pounds worth of savings in the coming Financial year as part of delivering a balanced budget for
This council with zero track record demonstrated in terms of the um the performance reports for this financial year that any of the savings are in the process of being delivered um this year to give credibility and confidence that the savings proposed for next year albe it at a lower level um are indeed
Achievable sure if I if I can inject here that U as you say so this year’s this year’s budget which is of course your previous administration’s budget that we’re delivering this year uh when you were on this side of the chair uh delivering to uh to to scrutiny
I believe it was cabinet members that gave the assurance that those savings were able to be made the difference that we believe in next year’s budget is that as I said earlier it’s not just the cabinet member that’s giving the assurance and that confidence we have the the direct agreement with those
Directors to deliver it and as I say not only not only it’s this year s savings have been made apart from Children’s Services because of the challenges that we’re experienced with that the directors have made this year all of the savings that that your budget put in place yeah well when cabinet members
Come to scrutiny they don’t come and just shoot from the hip themselves personally spouting off opinions those those assurances were provided as a consequence of themselves having been assured by exactly the same officers that are assuring you that those savings were deliverable those assurances were provided last year also and it is
Exactly as a consequence of that that I and other members are concerned for this Council that the assurances that you are receiving are deliverable are are going to come to fruition everybody was genuine and sincere last year in terms of making those assurances with exactly the same
Kinds of caveats in terms of you know risks that were that were flagged then and are being flagged now but are you know as far as the in savings are concerned are being flagged as the reasons why zero of those savings are being are being delivered and without
Any track record in terms of what you’re forecasting as the outturn for the end of this financial year zero savings being delivered where is the Assurance where is the evidence where is the confidence that we can be provided with that you’re going to deliver significant
Savings by the end of quarter 1 in terms of flipping staff from for example agency to permanent Workforce you know just as one example and we know how difficult that is to achieve in reality so you know our job is based on bitter experience going back more than just
This year but into last year and the year before everybody’s hopes expectations and you know assurances have not come to fruition for this particular directorate whereas the other directorates as a consequence have to tighten their belts still further to offset the inability of this directorate
To be able to make the progress at the pace that we all hope so picking up on your points as you just said all this year’s uh budget all directorates less Children’s Services have made the savings that they accredit to the situation within Children’s is unique it’s challenging and that’s why
This Administration will look to give additional funding for next year for the three to fund the three-year plan because we have we believe confidently that that directorate will make those savings but dealing with that structural deficit as as your papers put it is effectively on the back of requiring
Even greater savings from other parts of the council to be delivered in order to move that money around and put it on the children budget line now you know that may be the reality of the situation but effectively what you’re doing is frontloading what what has been the
Overspend this year which will come to when we look at the reserves in terms of quite exactly where that money is going to come from to fill that to fill that um that shortfall this year uh because it isn’t clear um but we’ll come to that under under discussing the reserves but
As far as next year’s concern concerned you’re making a a structural adjustment to the budget for children’s rationalizing that as being something that they can then manage in terms of their pressures and delivery of savings over the next three years without there being any evidence provided through financial forecasting at
All that savings are in the process of being made now first thing I would say uh chair is that Children’s Services in this in this Council are not unique to any other Council having at the CCN conference in November our overspend on sh service of 10 million was quite insignificant in
Comparison to some of the other councils that that we were speaking with so it’s we are not unique it’s not a unique sit situation all counts in the land are seeking additional funding for children services what I can say to you is that by uh as the leader has alluded to many
Times the number one priority for this Administration is children’s services and that’s why we’re having sat down looked at the delivery plan the action plan that’s in place we as a Cabinet are confident having discussed with all of the officers that they can make those savings over the three years that we
Will provide them that additional funding so that by year at the third the end of the third year in 2728 they are then in a position that they are living within the the budget that set but your own monthly cabinet reports on this this directorate are not providing you with any evidence to
Substantiate the confidence that you’re that you’re expressing in the room here before us all um I’ve got the leader and I’ve got the cabinet member indicating you know I’ll I’ll I’ll call the leader and then thank you thank you chair with with respect I I think you’re forgetting
What um Mr Freeman’s contribution was last week and he was giving clear examples of where there were there were steps being taken in terms of the Improvement that was leading directly to savings and we’d have to play the tape back but there were a level there were a
Mount a cohort of social workers that had converted from agency to to put permanent so that was one of his key examples of where savings are being made but savings stroke improvements are being made and that was that was evidence um and and so it’s a whole
Complex picture and you know I wouldn’t go into any detail but you know there’s an example we can get you more examples if you feel that there’s this uneasiness about how to deliver I think the position is different to last year in that the Improvement plan had started
You know you you were the pioneers and your last administration of getting the Improvement plan off the ground we’re we we’re moving forward with that now uh and and that’s giving us a basis in which to to claim that we’re going to make further savings and improvements which will drive down budgetary
Pressures so it’s there but if you need a more detailed list of that then you know maybe that’s the type of recommendation that you could put to the cabinet uh to give you that those key examples that you’re after yeah I I thank you leader and you know committee members recall the the
Examples that um uh and assurances that um that Mr Freeman provided to us last week however that’s not evidence because it’s not translating into savings that are actually being recognized in the uh performance reports that your Administration is making public now if you’re not prepared to actually declare those savings as
Evidence and track record of a movement in the right direction all the you know all the words in the world aren’t actually providing us with evidence and Assurance simply assertions Cabinet member um thank you chair I obviously apologies I couldn’t um I couldn’t make last
Week’s meeting so um I I didn’t hear the director of children’s services input to the meeting but I am obviously very familiar um with with uh many of those issues that would have been rehearsed in that discussion and apologies for being late today had a safeguarding partnership meeting elsewhere um so I I
Don’t want to do too much detail here but I do want to just um um also remind us that a number there are six areas that the um the commissioner has identified that she would want to see the Improvement um program include uh and be the subject of report
Uh in six months time um they have been shared with um Council of fan as as oh lost me back um so so um they are with children’s scrutiny for consideration um I have detailed discussions with the director um and I’ve recently had a conversation with Rachel to make sure that we’re
Triangulating uh the delivery of improved outcomes for children which include demand reduction across a range of areas that will translate across the children’s safeguarding partnership also have a significant role uh to play in this so I’ll just give you give you a couple of examples and I don’t extend the debate
Unnecessarily um in the in Heria we have um a rate of looked after children Which is higher than you would expect for a local authority of this size uh and recognizing that the challenges that children and young people face in a in in a county of the nature of
Heritage um when when you start to get into the detail of that and I do what we see is a significant amount of referral into the local author Authority front door by agencies and amount of that transferring uh into um no further action so there’s inefficiency there in the system and it
Is a fact that when you have a local Authority that is inadequate uh and subject to such an improvement plan agencies are more nervous about circumstances that they come across when they’re encountered in Children of young people so there’s a significant uplift in increases of of referrals and that is
Translating into um an increased number of section 47 strategy discussions an increased number of child protection plans which ultimately end up being closed quite soon after they’re instigated now that is very definitely a conversation that the children’s safeguarding partnership need to be having because each of the principal
Agencies in those discussions need to be challenging each other about is that the right decision is that likely to read to the right re lead to the right outcome for children young people and families so um the director has reported on those significant issues around Recruitment and Retention uh looked after children
Rates because that’s where the higher cost uh placements are uh and indeed the the pressure on the special education on needs and disabilities transport budget and that links to the work that’s ongoing to improve placement sufficiency for arranging of children so the whole range of stuff that is going on
Um member I’m sorry to interrupt you but I mean the the top and bottom of it is as far as budget scrutiny is concerned and I’m sure children and young people’s scrutiny is going to be happy to go into the detail of all of this but as far as
Budget scrutiny is concerned the top and tail of it is are you going to be able to demonstrate a track record of starting to deliver savings in your portfolio area before the end of this financial year and in advance of approving this budget through cabinet and offering it up to full Council so
That there can be some Assurance provided that there is a trajectory and evidence of delivery from this directorate that can substantiate delivery of and and give confidence to delivery of the 2 and a half million million pounds worth of savings that are creating the balance in this budget for
Next financial year so we’re happy that we’ve done the detailed working out that will enable us to do that so your quarter three um performance report is going to um is going to um show savings starting to be delivered in your directorate that will be being be
Will be being um acknowledged and will be being banked as part of an adjustment to your forecast of outturn well we’re happy that we’ve got the right metrics in place to be able to do that and we’ll we’ll only know if if we’re doing that by reporting against those metrics won’t
We I can’t I can’t forecast what the future’s going to be what we forecasted is what the future ought to be along the Journey of an improvement plan it’s not the for it’s not the future anymore accounting period nine has closed are you going to be for are you going to
Be acknowledging and forecasting that you have banked and delivered you will be by the 31st of March 2024 savings against your savings lines in this calend in this financial year to provide evidence of delivery to support and justify savings that you’ve got in your budget for next year
Um I I can’t answer that without speaking directly to the director because we’ve not had that discussion yet so you know the commitment is that we understand the direction of travel the detail of the conversation we need and you know report back to this committee if you are unable to provide
Evidence of delivery track record of delivery this financial year it severely calls into question the safety of balancing our budget based on an assumption that you will deliver savings next year that you have not demonstrated the capacity to deliver in any way shape or form this year Well
Forgive me my understanding is the the reason that we’re putting forward the budget proposal we are is it’s been acknowledged that the savings projections that were due to be delivered in this Current financial year were not going to be achievable but Mr Freeman last week said that the appointments that have been
Made and the changes in the staff mix that have been made will be impacting during quarter four so yes they will be but I don’t have the detail of that right now so I can’t honestly answer the convers the question without being able to defer to the director to understand
That but the what we’re talking about is the delivery of a three-year uh plan starting the next financial year rather than what the Legacy was of this financial year acknowledging that generally speaking the majority of savings that were projected have been acknowledged as not being able to be delivered in this financial
Year chief executive thank you thank you chairman I think Daryl when he was here last week and councelor Powell and neither councelor Powell or I were here last week so you know just thinking back to the debrief that um that Daryl Freeman gave us was around the Assurance
About delivery that he provided to the task and finish group previously around delivery of savings for 2425 and the evidence and the trajectory you’re commenting on in the final quarter of this year um will will be borne out by the number of appointments that have started to be made to convert
Those staff which are currently employed on on an inter r on agency basis into permanent members of staff and what we haven’t got in front of us is that level of detail of how many have been confirmed in recent weeks and how many are due to be confirmed in the coming
Weeks um that’s a point of detail that I understood had come through from darl in terms of the the task and finish group um but that’s where the Assurance will come in that those conversions are starting to be made so that the workforce savings would have been
Identified in three years plan can show that there’s a move towards those and at the same time you know the the reduction in cost of those high cost placements and also the number of children and who are planned to be reunited with their families which will ultimately go to
Reduce the demand cost for children or in care so at quarter three yes we hope to be able to show those trajectories particularly around recruitment that’s predicated on the appointments being made in time for the quarter three cff report being done um but I am confident that the detailed work that’s been done
To support the delivery of savings in year one of the three-year plan as evidenced by darl and the finance colleagues to the task and finish group supports the Integrity of the plan the commitment there is to deliver those savings and that we’ll start to see the evidence of that subject to those
Appointments being made before the quarter 3 cut off in the Q in the Q3 report thank you chief executive well I think it’s that that kind of evidence that upon which a recommendation from this committee will pivot as to whether or not we consider it to be safe to be
Balancing our budget around the 2 and a half million pounds worth of savings proposed to be delivered next year by children’s counselor Crockett and then councelor Fagan thank you chair um right I I want to skip back a couple of uh issues actually uh this council is committing to ensure
Residents have a clear understanding of council business especially and most importantly where residence pures are involved for example council tax we this Council are striving to have an abbreviation and acronym free dialogue and Crystal Clear language in our documents therefore or could I ask that authors continue with our aim chair you
Mentioned um the planning assumptions on this mtfs document and if you go to 4.1 table two an example of that is where it states about council tax um I’m not going to read it but I would ask everybody to read it because I had to read it several times before I made any
Sense of it so um it’s just so that the residents and general public understand things in a clear clear form please any comments would be welcome don’t know whether Rael you want to comment chair can I mention so is it the council tax which an increase of 4.99 is
Ass is it that one yeah yeah so I think the confusion is around there being percentages quoted within that um that box that relate to two separate things one to do with the council tax base which is the number of properties against which council tax is
Is chargeable in in a year and the other one um being the percentages associated with future Year’s council tax uplift assumptions that are built into the plan and I think it’s just that we’ve got two lots of percentages that happen to add up to almost the 5% that we’ve got in this current
Year through you chair yeah we’ll we’ll take that on board and we’ll try to clarify that and separate out those two items the increase in council tax and the increase in council tax base to make it clearer for users councilor Fagan yeah uh sorry chair just just to go back to the issue
About children’s services and um as as um I I raised last week with um Mr Freeman was uh about the risk of uh not delivering the required improvements and uh that that was put as low and uh the the impact of that medum where actually I you you know based on the evidence
That we’ve been discussing it seems um we we are not entirely confident and I think part of the reason um for that is because we haven’t seen the evidence and so what I would really a lot of that um the three-year plan uh relies on the conversion of agency staff to um um
Council employed staff uh full-time staff and are are we absolutely confident that we have the data uh in terms of Staffing levels uh from the service that actually supports that uh assertion and if if we don’t have that data in front of us uh I think what we
Will need is is as as a council to see that data and to be absolutely sure that the service is on top of that data because there’s I I think the the dis uh the concern about it is um that we aren’t being presented with that data
And that is what we need to see so if if we are thinking of a a recommendation I think we we need to be absolutely sure that the accuracy around the Staffing is there and that if if there are some some concerns about how that is being
Monitored that we put in place some pretty stringent uh controls around that or if need be additional resources in terms of that um the collection of that data so that we are absolutely on top of that so we there’s there’s no discrepancy whatsoever around uh who who
Is agency staff who is Council employed staff um I I I I think it’s absolutely key to the delivery of the successful delivery of this plan chief executive thank you and and and I think that’s the F first suggestion I would expect that based on what you said to be a recommendation
That comes out of the task and finish group and and and those monitoring reports are provided as we go through the year you know to confirm the conversion of agency and interim staff to permanent is act is happening against the profile and that level of saving has
Be realized so I think that would be um a good almost a a good and and and right recommendation to come through to ensure what the directorate was saying is going to happen is happening throughout the year chair if I can just say because the task and finish report is actually going
To come to the children’s scrutiny committee so potentially that’s something that we’ll need to just make sure of next week when this children’s scrutiny committee meets yeah well it it will it will come to the committee and you’ll be able to take your view on that
Then right I think from a timing point of view unless there are any other burning questions on the uh the the the mtfs um we need to move on to um the corporate um um budget and um uh cover what we weren’t able to cover off on uh
Last week is everybody content that we do that could I just check count councelor Thomas has joined us um uh remotely and councelor Thomas I’m I’m conscious it’s not always easy to uh to indicate when you’re um when you’re um attending a meeting remotely are there any questions
Associated with the things that we’ve been discussing under the mtfs um that that you would like to raise before we before we leave the item thank you thank you okay we we’ll we’ll move to to corporate then and um uh thank you for being able to be with us councelor
Stodart um to be able to uh to cover this this item um we’ve got a number of uh questions as you as you would hope and expect associated with the uh the information to do with corporate um particularly because you you also seem to be holding responsibility for some um
Some fairly bold um savings associated with Council wide activity but we’ll deal to begin with with the corporate specific um aspects of the slide stack that you provided to the 10th of January meeting um so committee members if who’d like to um uh to start with a line of inquiry on on
Corporate councelor Fagan and then councelor Chows um it was just really a question about uh why the the corporate budget is carrying the legal costs for the Children’s Services it’s a it’s a legal service activity and legal services sit under corporates that’s why it sits there okay I think I think
The the difficulty is that actually it’s it’s not for me it doesn’t then reflect the activity that’s happening in terms of the the legal activity that’s happening in terms of children’s services is is not sort of properly sort of reflected under that uh under that budget uh under the
Children’s budget but I I’ll accept you know I’ll accept your um response for now thank you I think there’s a slightly broader point in that you know in in terms of pro the project management office there are some overspends there um and uh there’s also um Legal Services spending
Uh in supporting appro quite appropriately work in um a service area and the question is really whether um Corporate Services is holding costs that are associated with Service delivery in the in the directorate areas um whether it’s for um the uh employment of interims um who are actually working in
In the service areas um or indeed um not having things that are going on illegal being cross charged to the service area where the uh the benefit is delivered now I know there’s an argument that says in local government um uh finances we’re not going to play shopkeepers and and be
Cross charging um expenses here and there but on the other hand it does obscure the the actual cost of delivery of services um and if it’s a short-term thing in terms of a an interim placement or whatever that’s one thing but if it’s a long-term thing um just raising as councilor Fagan did
Whether it is appropriate for those costs to be captured in corporate when actually they fall in terms of benefit in a service area ultimately you you’re correct that the the cost will fall to the individual corporate the individual service area what it’s my understanding that there’s temporary funding held within corporate
Because it’s for examp example the pmo as you recall last time I looked at it there was 600 or 700,000 under spend but it’s sitting in corporate services so we’ll recover that back from sorry it will be passed back across to the the individual service areas so that it’s not quite plain
Shopkeepers but it’s actually how you how how the funding is done okay I mean it’s just kind of difficult to take a view on whether corporate is performing when the the the cross charging of costs where cost when costs fall where they lie rather than where they should be
Applied so I think part of that will come out as we’ve been readdressing the move within pmo and and PMs around the council as they’re moving into the corporate service areas their costs will go with them will remain within there we’re we’re still in that sort of Legacy
Piece where we’ve got bits of projects being ran by the pmo on behalf of ande so it’s things like that but we are actually now looking to embed the PMS inside those individual service areas that that will come with its own complexities and problems um uh will will watch that with interest
Um councelor Chows thanks I’ve got five questions actually but maybe I’ll just ask one or two and then leave space in case anybody else wants to do others I’ll start with the hopefully the simplest which is just um page 79 cross director environments can you just explain what that is please
In you know simple language page 79 of last week’s budget pack um corporate Corporate Services yeah the list of pressures so you’ve got you know P1 is the pay award P2 is the inflation pressures so I understand what those are but you’ve got £49,000 cost pressure in the next year from Cross director
Environments what is that it’s it’s the movement between individual budgets individual corporate service budgets areas but how does that make sense how is that a cost pressure how does it cost £49,000 extra just to move money from one budget to another if I can answer it it’s not a
Cost pressure as such it’s the transfer of budget from a different area to reflect the transfer of services in there so it it it’s probably incorrectly termed as a as a pressure but it’s to show the movement um and to get back to those figures so for example it’s a cost
That was previously held by say children’s services and is now being taken into corporate I believe so yeah do we know do we know what it is what the pressure is we’ll J we’ll provide a detailed breakdown because there are a number in there so we’ll happily provide that
Great that would be fantastic thank you okay that was the simple question um uh the second one so page 77 same uh document pack shows that there’s a 1.2 million pound overspend on the pmo um in the current Financial year and this strikes me as slightly ironic SL
Unfortunate um given that the pmo have the job of ensuring that projects are delivered on time and to budget I can see you agree Carol um it’s a rather unfortunate place to have an overspend isn’t it so um you know the the department responsible for ensuring good management across the entire Council has
Itself got a significant overspend so I would like to know what is the explanation and how are you going to ensure that this doesn’t happen again s CH yes I’m very happy to pick this point up uh this was at too so that there has been some improvement we have
Been working through the cost base for the pmo and there have been reductions so it is getting smaller and more focused an element of that is how we recharge some of these projects some of the projects looked after by pmo I just dealt with because they’re corporate
Projects so some of the section 106 work that they’re looking at is being driving some of that over spend but I’m very happy I’ll make sure in Q3 report which is due to Cabinet next month would have a further explanation as to where the money is and the intention is to bring
That in as close as we can to a net position as we say there is already 400k in the special projects project which we’re firing across thank you you’ll forgive me Andrew if I’m not entirely reassured that my question has been answered there but I think you know it is clear that we
Have cross party kind of agreement around the principle that our department responsible for good project management should itself demonstrate good project management thank you um a sort of related issue uh really is that um Thrive the transformation program is shown on page 84 is due to save 2.6
Million pounds next year but in the current year there was A1 million pound overspend on it so again we have a you know a rather ironic contradiction between a project that is supposed to save us money and yet is going very significantly over budget same question essentially what is the cause of this
How can we have any confidence that uh this issue is going to be resolved and that we won’t have this contradiction going forward Amy’s here so we’ll go there but the Thrive program as you as you’re aware council is is the fouryear transformational program which is actually quite fundamental to everything
That we’re doing the whole structure that we and way that we will structure the organization to deliver services and new innovative uh more effective and more efficient way so I’ll just refer to Amy to answer that particular question that you’ve got thank you uh yeah so that was that
Investment is is investor save um in terms of Thrive as councelor SS as mentioned in terms of Thrive transformation program which is a three to four year program currently looking at that in terms of in- year as well with corporate directors and directors in terms of how we can is there’s any
Additional savings in year that we could look to um recoup but is also um within here demonstrating the further savings over the next sort of 24 25 with regards to thrive and the Thrive transformation program thank you Pete and Amy but again I don’t really feel that
That’s a full answer to my question which is how can you know if we’ve got a transformation program that is overspending by nearly half the amount that it’s supposed to be saving us you know year on year then our assumptions about the cost benefit of this transformation program
Look a little bit shaky should we not be assured that our transformation program can take place at the originally estimated cost and deliver the savings that it is supposed to be delivering you know a million pound overspend is really quite significant could I just sort of Follow
Follow that up I mean if we’ve got projects that are going across Financial year boundaries and if we are frontloading the delivery of those as we’ve talked about doing with the with the capital program in order to accelerate the rate at which savings are realized as a consequence of that
Work what is the mechanism by which we pay ourselves back for pulling that work forward in order to balance things out across Financial year boundaries if that’s how we do things and if that isn’t how we do things how do we do things if I can pick up firstly uh chair
On uh on con point so the one million overspend that’s part of uh the The Upfront cost that we put front for the the 3 PWC uh initiatives uh if I remember rightly for uh service cost recovery custom acceleration in robotic automation so that was the the money we paid up front
To PWC to do that work to put that in place so that’s that’s what’s pulled pulled that uh million pounds there however what we then go into is the savings that will then be made in the in the next financial Year sorry got papers everywhere uh which shows
That uh the the Thrive program under saving S2 that’s looking at uh effectively uh2 million savings made on looking at Red reducing all of our contracts so effectly all of the contracts that we have when we renegotiate them we’ll be looking to to drive those costs down not
By a blank at 10% but we will use our our uh our commission officers to get them down as best as we can we’re also then looking at um uh service cost recovery on on other other expenditures third party spend and then also then looking at a 600k savings on custom
Acceleration robotics so basically looking at the top 10 um uh high volume servers we have so it’s ring about bins or whatever the 10 top 10 are we’re then looking to make them using more robotic services to make them a much more efficient and and cost savings So you you’re correct we there
Is a there is an overspend this year because of upfront loading but we’ll then recover that through the the two and a half million pounds there thank you I don’t want to flog this too much but just to clarify you know I’m fully in favor of spending
Money now to save money in the long term that makes sense but when there’s a million pound overspend on a transformation program it it does make me wonder and your explanation seems to suggest that that overspend is because we’ve just done some things earlier or is it because the things that we
Originally planned to do this year have just cost us a million pound more than we thought they were going to cost or a million pound more than price waterhous Coopers told us it was going to cost so is it that we’ve just done more early and brought the expenditure forward into
This financial year or is it that actually the original cost estimates we had from PWC were overly optimistic and the reality is it’s much more expensive to do this program partly down to timing differences so as we were looking at the sequencing sorry is it a or b of the two options
That I gave you C timing sequences Pete that isn’t that’s not you’re not answering my question is it because you know the the originally planned work has turned out to be more expensive than estimate estimated or is it because you’ve done stuff earlier I’ll refer to Amy to who who’s
The leader on that one I suppose in a way it’s it’s a combination we have we have it’s we we have we have been obviously working hard in year to identify those savings across those three areas that um Council sod has identified some will be realized with
Within this year as Council sod has identified we have that is investment into PWC with regards to supporting us to develop an invest transformation program in year and over the following the following years so we look to obviously look to identify an investor saving to bring them back and on any
Transformation program there is going to have to be some element of investment to ensure that you know we we we look to transform the organization but maybe see Paul’s looking to come in here as well through you chairman if I may I think we may not have helped ourselves
Here by putting it down in red as a million pound overspend you know there’s been a there’s been an expenditure in year which is very much Under The Heading as you describe chair as an investor save program the savings haven’t not have not come through as quickly or as in the format we’d
Originally planned and those are now included in future years so we need to think we need to come up with a a more appropriate way which accurately reflects the investment that’s been made by the council in in in the Thrive program to secure the the information knowledge where those savings areas are
And that we can then relate the investment to when the savings are actually being delivered some in year and some of which are going to come next year as as as as Council Stoddard has described in the three areas of service cost recovery customer acceleration and
Our third party spend so I I don’t think we’ve helped ourselves in terms of how I presented it if I may um I think it is we needed to re we need to rebadge this as investor save with savings with the cost being incurred in this year so we
Ultimately transparent but the benefits coming through this year and into next if that helps thank you Paul I think perhaps an ongoing kind of report on savings realized in relation to investment made would help us to keep tabs on this over time thank you chair I’ve got two more
Questions in this area one on the hoop SLA and one on the MS saving I particularly like to ask about Ms if nobody else does but I’m conscious I’ve had the Flor for a while other could you cover both of those and people can uh uh
Indicate if they want to follow on in terms of uh either of those topics well very briefly on the hoop SLA we’ve got 2.1 million pound projected savings from you know squeezing the ho hoop SLA contract you know what is that going to involve what is it going to you know
What’s the impact going to be in terms of real life services but the the question that I’m actually even more interested in an answer to or even more concerned about if you like is the projected 4.5 million pound saving from the the the MS scheme the haven’t written down what it stands
For early res resignation scheme that’s it the early resignation scheme and is there any strategy to this because I know that some posts are protected so that you won’t have you know all of your most senior social workers resigning on mass and you know that would be terrible
Um so there are some restrictions on who’s eligible for Ms but you know the more posts are restricted the more the unrestricted areas are subject to potentially possibly large scale people taking up up the MS scheme and fundamentally it seems to me a completely non-strategic way of reshaping the workforce because it
Depends entirely on whether individuals want to take advantage of early resignation and you could possibly end up with half of a team saying well right we’ll do that with potentially devastating effects for the that particular team’s work or that particular service would it not make more sense to have a more strategic
Approach that says what are the top priority services that we need to provide who are the people that we need in those jobs how are we going to reshape accordingly rather than cutting posts because we just don’t have enough money to pay everybody through a resignation scheme that could
Potentially leave holes in important areas of our work and could I follow that up with a supplementary which is around how the savings are um shown as being taken uh in in the profile of the delivery of the savings the slide shows all 4.5 million um being um recognized in quarter
One thank you and I think that second supplementary is it that is no no it’s just that given the reluctance to recognize savings that are being predicted by both the cabinet member the chief executive the leader and the director in children’s services this year it seems at odds with with that
Prudency um caution to be showing all 4.5 million of the MS savings being realized in quarter one of the new Financial year well as a Scotsman have been very prudent I will hope I’ll give you the answers to those questions so going back first of all to councel CH so hoop as
You’re aware ho uh they’re a company they make profit we cannot share as the primary shareholder we cannot make any we cannot get any Returns on that the way that the SLA and the the governance has put in place so what we are able to
Do is we have a a discount on the services we that we are provided with and what what commercial will be doing is driving that discount down even greater so that’s why we’ll uh we’ll look to make some savings there because we’ll be getting our services less so
Every million pounds of services we’ll only pay them 600,000 or whatever yeah that that wasn’t my question my question was about the the impact in terms of the council’s ability to provide services because hoop basically provides services that help us provide our services and if we are squeezing them as a provider you
Know as you say they make profits but it’s effectively a company that we own ourselves anyway so fundamentally what’s going to be squeezed here is the quality or consistency or scale or whatever of the services that that they contribute to what’s the real life effect of that going to be
Life effect is nil that they will provide the same services for less money so you’re saying ho is currently making 2.1 million pounds of profit per year that we can just squeeze out of them and they will deliver Services slightly differently but they will still deliver the
Services moving on to point my colleague is making is that if there’s 22.1 million pounds of them making profit then we’ve been overpaying them all of these years you know the reality is this is going to lead to a squeeze a dis a a decline in the quality of
Services that the council is able to provide to Residents which areas of our services is that going to affect if we cut upul I reate my point again none so we’ve actually maging 2.1 million of thin air well certainly not magic in money out of thin air and the slides S6 has
Got two elements to the the saving the total of 2.42 million reduced 610,000 transform 1532 so the reduce is the reduction in getting the money back out in effect of of the profits and services hoop has made from its Arrangements coming that back through the one of half
Million is about the transfering the hellway deliver services so we have a range of activities that hoop will provide which we’re asking them to change and we working to change so the one above and the goch solution so the what is happening there where people want to change their arrangements for
Council tax so you want to change the bank account or the date that your direct debit goes out or declare claim a single person discount at the moment you can do that online but that ends up on an officer’s desk where they have to put that into the the database that’s all
Changing so we will have the ability to do it online it will go straight into the database removing that steps of the manual handling so that’s an example where they’re transfering the service so from a resident point of view nothing’s changed if I you’ve got a slightly more
Efficient system I i’ encourage people to sign up for the my account Arrangement which Ena ACC is and way they might as well sign up for an electronic council tax bill because that cuts down on paper so it’s things like that that are part of the transformation
Program there’s a whole range of activ and services we’re working with hoop to transform and change part of the wider Thrive program so we’re asking Hoople to transform as well as the council doing its services so that um I don’t think C is the right phrase but it is about a
Transformation hoop would work with them to do a range of different services or do them differently thank you that’s actually that’s a really helpful kind of illustration and example to make real how we can provide the same services in a different way that’s actually costing
Us less so thank you for that and if it’s Poss I think it’s just useful to make this stuff concrete for people um just to clarify you started talking about Thrive and transformation in relation to hoop but just for full clarity so the projected 2.1 million pound of Hoople savings is separate from
The projected 2.6 million pounds of Thrive related savings next year so transformation is a marvelous magic wand isn’t it I’ll be very interested to see if we get all of these savings coming through next year so into addressing your uh the MS question uh what I can
Say is that again is linked in through the whole Thrive transformation program because it’s all about a strategy for delivering the services in a in a slightly different way albe it’s the same services in a more efficient and better way so it’s it’s not a case of
Someone has sat with a finger and said we need to save 44.5 million it’s the case of how can we deliver services in a more efficient way and a more Innovative way and actually we can then look at we are looking at posts you’re quite right
The way in which that has been developed it’s not just a case of we have certain areas across the council where we have said no one can apply for uh early resignation because they’re critical workers the rest of it as I say has been worked through with unions and
Uh Tracy’s not here is she no Paul are you able to give a a quick burst on criteria I only to add that you know yes we’ve we’ve done that heavily consultation with the trade unions in terms of that criteria um and are working through and we’ve had a
Considerable number of expressions of interest uh we received a number of applications that process is still open and running um we will be closing it I think in at the end of next week and then we’ll make some decisions as to which of those applications to accept and
Confirm um and those which will be reject and we will We Will We Will We Will um continue continue that work the time scale for being is that those staff for whom Ms is agreed will will then leave the organization be by the 31st of March and therefore the
Savings can be confirmed from the 1 of April onwards which chair addresses your question about why the full savings been taken in quarter one because the individuals will be gone by the end of March this year can I just say that makes the assumption that you know that
Everybody the amount of posts that you want to offer that you’re going to get 100% take up of this I suppose the reality we’ll only know whether we got 100% when we when we’ve completed the the process that we’re going through um it’s still open
At the moment so we can’t say one way or the other you know let’s wait for the outcome before we make that final decision so it’s not it’s it’s still slightly based on an assumption that that’s how it will work out that you’re actually going to um make that additional transform
Formative saving of 4.5 because enough people will want to to take advantage of that that scheme and does that mean that uh the flip side of that is as you uh move to these electronic ways of working that you’re talking about through my account which do work
Very closely very well then those um posts that person you alluded to whose desk it lands on who would then have to put it in manually that post is no longer required so there will be redundancies as well as early Mutual resignations no no redundancies only resignations so you’re assuming that the
Person who isn’t needed anymore will be one of those people that will be taking advantage of this scheme Mr L grve if I can help clarify so that example I gave about the my account arrangement for paying the council tax and changing those arrangements that’s a service carried
Out by hoop hoop are looking to redeploy uh their their people in into different parts of the loal organization so they’re not planning any redundancies either so to be very clear if any us listening Clarity that people are not proposing to make any points redundant on that side okay
Um is this on the hoop people or the or the MS Point Okay C councelor Fagan and then councelor Stark if the point hasn’t been made and then I’d like to um I’d like to query a point on um uh support uh thank you I think it’s just some clarification on the difference
Between a redundancy and early resignation scheme because does somebody who applies for the early resignation scheme do they not kind of get any compensation then as they would do if they were being made redundant um so so there’s that question and be because obviously if if it wasn’t redundancy scheme there would be
Additional costs and I can’t see sort of where the the costs of of an early resignation would be built in and and I think also the the IM it it’s again there’s no information on the the impact of of on the service where that may uh where that early resignation May um
Occur so you it then presents an anxiety that potentially there’s an additional workload put on the existing Workforce and is there a kind of long-term implication that actually that Workforce is then either unable to deliver the service or is actually stretched so badly that it incur uh they they become
Ill so it’s just there’s no sort of real clarification on on that I haven’t seen that as a as a counselor so I don’t have any information on how that scheme would work and the implications of it for you chair the M scheme uh has been counil had that scheme for an awful
Long time it’s not a new scheme as such it is a a resignation process where the individual decides they want to leave the organization and what their application accepted we agree there is a compensation Arrangement that not a redundancy situation so we need to be very clear that people are choosing to
Apply for it um if they don’t choose to that’s fine um if people do part of the the process um when we’ve got all the applications in is to assess the impact on teams and the arrangements and directors are very clear that they will work through the service implications so
We may turn around to some people and say We can’t agree that application I hope we don’t get to the situation but that is a possibility terms of um those arrangements so we’re working our way through and you made the valid point about what the imput act for the staff
That remain and we have a Workforce strategy and there’s a lot of support for people uh in terms of managing change and um mental health issues so we’re not anticipating there being any sign impact on those but clearly there will be a lot of support for staff and
This is something we’ve agreed with the unions as part of the process of rolling out the process um the council will be slightly smaller in terms of the employees is part of this process that’s part of the reality of um the financial situation that all councils face
Themselves in so it’s a process to enable people who want to leave um to leave in a way that is controlled and managed through their choice on their that suits us as an employer because if people want to go let them go and we will then end up being a smaller
Council thank you can I just ask how many uh positions is that anticipated that this will affect what it will be the reduction we haven’t got a precise figure and as the chief exac said the process is still open so I don’t think you should appro to talk about
Individuals or numbers but a number of people have asked for the information and it will depend on their salary sces exactly how many people go and how many people apply for we have a figure in that the four and a half million that is a an estimate based on a series of
Assumptions because it’s all we can have at this point until we know the anticipated uptake of the ARR we may end up with more people app than anticipated so we said she exact so there’s a process to work out who we let councelor star was your point covered um
No it’s only going to be quick chair um you know I only ask simple questions car I said that morning I want to go back to anx B and make this point because I was going to make it earlier on when we look at MTF F chair we are
Forecasting an increase under demands and pressures of about 3 million or 10% Andrew I suspect some of that will be due to inflation but is some of that due to an increase in demand and services because if that’s the case chair I would want reassurance that we’re going to get
An increase in certain areas we heard about planning at previous meeting I know about the pressures right across C in terms of of the front line in terms particularly of enforcement I’m just concerned that this has been looked at and that that you were able to cope with
This increase that you forecast against this backdrop of Ms and the same you expect to get from Air staff reductions yeah could I add to that if we’re looking at if we’re going back to the mtfs and looking at a Annex B in in terms of councelor Stark’s question um
The the lines towards the bottom of the table which identify uh growth demand and pressures and savings and efficiency mitigations um they drop off a cliff after next year um is that because we find it increasingly difficult to predict them or because they are basically what we would consider to be balancing known
Unknowns through you chair and in terms of the annex B and the full projection as canc St points out there are assumptions built in there for future years for demand and growth in those pressures that we have made clear assumptions and people have worked through the detail of what they think
Those demand in are going to be um as they get further out then there is a degree of having to have an assumption based to drive that forward uh there’s no guarantees on there and this is assuming that there are no major step changes in things like Prov of care um
The number of children look after children those type of things demand for services Technical Services environment Health trading standards so there’s a set of assumptions that the directors have worked through we have built in I or two of the reports some sensitivity analysis of that um that’s the overview
In terms of specifics of services could picked that up last week I mean the point I want to make chair underline that is there likely to be an offset because we have have to increase staff in certain of the must have services such as planning that could undermine the savings you’re trying to
Make under that’s the point I’m worried about because these figures do seem me suggest that to some extent thank you what I can assure you is that what we believe is critical service areas within the Council planning social services and certain other areas that those those members of staff are not
Aable they’re not enable to actually apply for M will we have an increase in those areas that offset the saving under demares we don’t know do we that that’s the point of trying to make from these figures we don’t know whether we will have to grow some of our teams elsewhere
To meet the demand that that we’re facing over the future years we’re certainly not expecting that all the all the work we have done uh does not see any yeah that’s why we are we’re offering R to to reduce the size because the way in which we’ll deliver the
Service in the future under Thrive and transformation will be a more efficient way so any increase in service demand will be met by uh transformation of Service delivery so if we are not investing in making in more stuff in certain areas we could end up with more demand uh pressures on smaller
Teens no because the tools that we’re providing under the Thrive program will enable them to deal with those that potential and again I emphasize potential growth in demand okay I think my question about whether those two lines are balancing known unknowns um is probably a
Yes yes it is at this point it is a lot forward that direct got a lot of detail yeah because we can’t can’t possibly given the the the trend in demand and pressures it can’t go you know 32 million this year 35 million next year
15 the year after you know it’s going to be bigger than that but we just don’t know how big and consequently we don’t know what we might need to do in terms of transformation savings efficiencies whatever to offset that but we’re using best practice from across government to project that and
These figures they’re not plucked from the air they’re actually measured based on best practice are you are you are you telling this committee that you’re genuinely only expecting 15 million pound worth of demand and pressures to be uh to be hitting across the council in 2025 26
Yes okay uh we need to bear that in mind when we’re looking at our recommendations then um councelor Thomas you’re indicating it’s us very top heavy with managers are you looking to get quite a few s post at the end of the day they have control they don’t actually do the
Work so then control the work done usually that is back way to go thank you thank you counselor it’s uh it’s a uh what I can say is that under the uh uh the savings number three transformation Target Opera botle we are reviewing uh the Senior Management across the whole structure so that’s
Potentially looking at an 850 that’s looking at 85,000 saving okay um thank you for that question councelor Thomas um could could I ask a question in in last year’s uh budget um recognizing that um you know there was a lot of financial hardship out there and um the administration in
Charge at the time was faced with needing to maximize the uh recommended uplift in council tax um uh charge which is the position that this administ ministration also um has presently um there was 1.7 million pounds uh of funding provided um specifically to deliver support to the hardest hit households
And that came from a combination of new homes bonus and um interest uh additional interest earned on cash balances as a consequence of interest rate Rises um I can’t see in the budget figures as you have them presented um that this provision is continuing and given that you are
Proposing presently to increase to the maximum the uh the council tax rise for the coming year providing ongoing support on of that level to the hardest hit households in addition to the uh council tax tax discount um would seem to be a very necessary measure there is no CH there’s no plan
Change and therefore that’s why it’s not in shown in the papers there’s no change to it so that that level of funding is is continuing I mean it’s I think it would be helpful both for this committee and for members when this comes to full Council to to make
Overt that that provision is is continuing um in order to give some confidence because that level of targeted support by far and a way exceeds any you know to to that that demographic group for the county by far and way exceeds any benefit that they might receive from any
Level of council tax discount from the maximum applied across the um across the council tax base leader you’re indicating sounds like a good recommendation chair to to to make that more explicit in in the proposals um and and can I just um check with Mr lve about the the takeup of that scheme
In previous years um through it’s a demand driven opportunity so we just look at the data about the take up that is there as a safety net for households that meet the criteria um the team are are very good at uh working their way through that so
We’ll provide the data of the take up yeah thank you and um I’m very relieved to hear that that’s that’s still baked into the um the assumptions that you’ve got there it’s a really important offset for you know the requirement to maximize for those who are you know able to
Pay councilor Stark I think we’re we’re coming towards the point where we do need to to move on to um reserves and then uh and then reflect on our recommendations I just want to ask this point was there at any stage either within cabinet or among senior staff to
Take the 4.6 million that you might gain in savings from Ms and actually use it to add toe to provide more resources in those areas under greatest pressure yes we discussed things like that but equally we then have to sit to see how can we achieve the balance so if
If we if we took the 4.5 million and gave it to IE where else would we make the savings to to reduce the 4.5 so that you could get the balanced budget so there was never any opportunity to actually rebalance the budget in terms of perhaps these areas like planning environmental health
Trading standards where all of us who are Ward members keep getting uh residents coming forward saying why aren’t they we properly staffed in these areas isn’t that a bigger consideration in some respects the fact that residents don’t always say that we are delivering the the service that we should be against what they
Expect as as all also with with all the other services that were mandated to provide and uh the discretion that we haven’t so there was a great deal of debate I you this is this was not a five minute discussion this took place over many many weeks all the pros and cons of
Each of the savings and as a Cabinet we have come to the decision at the minute on the uh the the uh uh the uh the potential budget that we’ve got in front of you to those decisions sorry could I just query on the on the MS activity is the in is the
Figure that we’re provided with of 4.5 is that a gross or a net figure in other words is there an element of the um the the funding released by approving Ms applications in areas where we’re minded to grant them um being is some element of that being retained in order to invest in
Recruiting um you know new members of Staff perhaps into areas where we have a need for developing new skills new capabilities associated with delivering transformation or covering some of the points that um that councelor Starks made what I would say is that the as I say critical areas planning was
Definitely one of them Social Services children that sort of area they the members of staff there are not enabled to uh to apply for for Ms therefore there is no need to replace them because they’re not leaving no that’s not the point I’m really asking whether this is a net or a
Gross figure is there an element of you know you’re talking elsewhere in the budget about deleting all all vacancies that have been that are being held on directorate books um you know know there presumably is a need to develop capability in new areas associated with transformation or doing things
Differently you know or recruiting back into um areas that have have um had people retire at senior level through the MS program you know in order to refresh the the the staff base is is that reflected in terms of the MS figure being a net figure or is this a gross
Figure and that kind of reinvestment in um the staff base not showing in the budget it’s a gross there’s no proposals whatsoever to to increase staff it’s a it’s a staff reduction okay thank you for clarifying that um I think unless there are any burning questions I think we need to
Move to uh cover the reserves item right sorry I missed that we have in case the public get the wrong impression and staff we we’re not we got regarding M you said um we we were not we were not going to replace any vacant posts those are freed of
Vacant posts that that’s that’s not correct we we what we’re looking at doing is where there’s been a vacant post for a significant period of time and and has not been filled then we would look at not replacing that person but if somebody left tomorrow and it was
Um important that post be filled then we would advertise that post okay thank you for that clarification um Vice chair you you’ve got some points on Treasury management I think we kind of I I thought we’d sort of covered treasury management by dancing around that and um
And and capital but if there’s some outstanding points that we can cover quickly uh no I think most a lot of the points Hur but I then there needs to be the opportunity for people to to raise any points I mean from previous discussions there were concerns over
Whether the rising cost of the MRP uh was going to be a pressure um and I think that was what stuck in my mind from pre meting discussions I’m happy to to go with your um what you think is best CH okay well there there was a
Query which may be you can provide some clarification on um in last year’s treasury management strategy uh the MRP Pro the the minimum Revenue provision was identified as being um 11.1 million on a forecast borrowing for the coming year of 165 million at paragraph three of 3.9 of the
The treasury management strategy the report indicates that the council’s borrowing to March 2024 will actually Bel lower than was anticipated um in the treasury management strategy last year um so it will it’s expected to be by the end of March this year um 119.4 million and that the minimum
Revenue provision for next year will need to be 9.3 m million for a total estimated borrowing of almost what we’d anticipated last year for this year which is um6 162.475 so just there was a query as to why the proposed MRP for the coming year is so
Much lower than it was for last year when the predicted level of borrowing is fairly similar thank you chair and the committee a year ago and I appreciate not many people here were on the committee there had a a comprehensive look at MRP and there’s a
Very clear paper and Par of detail so we’ll make sure that that link is circulated to people so that there is that background information in terms of um the council’s approach to MRP in terms of the questions you’ve just asked and all the calculations for MRP are
Driven by the forecast and the capital program I think as we’ve mentioned before the capital program sits at this level actual spend is slightly lower partly because of the slippage so we have adjusted for that in the calculations I rather than get into the detail here I’m very happy to provide a
Written paper explaining the workings on there if that would help to get enable you time to move on to the items on the agenda but we’ll provide a written breakdown yes thank you I think having that in in uh in in writing would would be of assistance councelor CHS
Thank you I just want to I’m not sure that this is specifically a question but it’s an observation and a concern that I want to share at this point really um if we’re looking at table five page 27 estimates of capital expenditure and funding we can see that projected
Capital expenditure next financial year is going to more than double and that the credential borrowing component of that is going to more than triple relative to this year and more than quintuple well it’s more than five times what we were borrowing with credential borrowing two years
Ago now while this is still within the framework of you know our restrictions on borrowing amounts and so forth what it does mean is that we’re essentially you know getting future taxpayers future residents to pay more for stuff that we are borrowing you are proposing to
Borrow um this year and that is shown very clearly in Table Six which is on page 30 which shows that the the the ratio of the financing cost to the net revenue stream is increasing you know quite significantly you know by nearly a third within two years from 7% up to 9% so
We’re seeing the the the financing cost the debt payment that we incur every year going up from 15 Mill 13 million this year up to1 19 and A5 million in in 26 27 um now that’s a really significant increase and it’s unsustainable long term to have that level of increase
Which is AR Rising because we are borrowing much more at a time of high interest rates so you know I’d really like to ask you councelor stal to to kind of reconsider the strategy that you’re pursuing at the moment which is borrowing quite a bit at a time of high
Interest rates because that what that’s going to do is drive up to nearly 20 million pound a year this council is going to be paying in interest payments on a base budget of roughly 200 200 million so about 10% nearly of our income is going to be spent on that and
Just that increase over those two years that4 and a half million pounds extra interest we’re going to be having to pay that’s equivalent to 3% raise in in council tax as you well know so it’s you know it’s really quite a risky strategy I think it’s borrowing from the future
To pay for things this year that we may have differences of opinion about whether they’re sensible to to spend on but the fundamental Financial point is that you are storing up significant costs for future taxpayers not just 10 years down the line but even two years down the line and I think that’s
Problematic thank you and I note your observation but what I would still say is that our level of boring as show as recorded against by Grant Thornton we’re still significantly lower than other unit authorities uh and it will be prudently borrowed I I recognize that we’re doing
Better than some other authorities and I pay tribute to the you know prudent financial management of officers and you know indeed former cabinet members and so forth over recent years but my point is that we are taking on more and more debt as a council at a time of
Increasing interest rates so it’s not really about whether we’re doing you know we’re doing better than all of the councils that are currently going bus because costs are rising all the time and the government’s providing less and less funding the question is what costs are we storing up for future taxpayers
And like I just said within two years we’re increasing the cost of interest payments by equivalent to 3% on council tax you know that’s really significant and it means that we’re going to have to find Cuts elsewhere because we’re going to be spending more and more of our
Money repaying debts for stuff that we’re spending next year again I acknowledge your your observation um and what I would say is that interest interest rates are now as we’ve seen are reducing not increasing so over the longer term it will go lower um but it is something we need to be
Looking at Andrew you got any comments you L that depends on whether we’ve got variable rate borrowings for all of this well if it’s fixed then that is exactly my point if we’re taking out fixed term loans at a time when interest rates are historically High we’re fixing ourselves into difficulties
Through you chat and the the document before you is painting the potential for borrowing we normally don’t borrow that amount partly because we internally lend to ourselves and I I know there’s a train training session on last Friday but with a link that we historically under borrow because we use our working
Capital effectively so that is the cheapest form of borrowing um all our current loans are at fixed rates and we have got a whole spectrum of rates because they were fixed we’ve got some in the portfolio 10% even higher um as Council stod has said rates are dropping
And this is a forward look so at the moment we don’t know when we will need to borrow but it’ll be at some point in the future and we will take the market rate at that point all the indications are that rates are dropping so the longer we can delay the cheaper the
Money becomes inms we don’t normally get into variable rate borrowing rangs because that it’s a risk that we don’t nor want to take and my advice would be not to do that so any future borings would be at a fixed rate with the rate at the time but there is certainly a
Downward Trend in the rates and that’s simply what the market is predicting and how advises are there’s a downward Trend in the rate but there’s a really significant upward Trend in the amount that this Council and therefore our residents are going to be having to pay in interest payments because of what you
Are seeking to borrow the really significant increase in projected borrowing I I don’t think that’s a terribly responsible apprach okay thank thank you for making those points in the in the room counselor Chows I think if we’re if we’ve covered that treasury management um Gap can we um uh briefly cover reserves
Please go ahead it’s 5 o’ the meeting we just allocated three hours so I think to comme wish to continue okay um hopefully this will be a brief item and then we need to agree our um our recommendations um can I seek your permission committee members to um
Extend the meeting um until a maximum of 5:30 yes thank you I’m okay brilliant thank you very much um on the subject of reserves um we have a table on pay I have a meeting at 6 o’ I mean I won’t I won’t stay at 5:30 okay well
Let’s hope we don’t make it to 5:30 if you can caner through reserves we can get straight to uh recommendations and beware and thank you to cabinet members and officers for um sticking with us for a little bit longer um The Reserve are in the supplement on page
15 um in um and they’re showing uh in a table there um the the question that I’ve got on on these I’ve got two two questions um one is um we’ve got a line in there um showing that um the overspend from uh Children’s Services um is being uh proposed with effect from
Quarter Two to be covered um uh from reserves um as a way of dealing with uh with with that because it’s too much for us to be able to deal with in any other way in year um what what we’re not seeing in the way that these figures are
Presented is where that money is going to come from across our general and earmarked Reserves it does state in the words of the mtfs I think that we are going to be using we are going to be reviewing our AAR reserves in order to find that funding the problem for me is
That this overspend has been being forecast from uh since June um and the decision was made at at quarter 2 in September that it would come from reserves and you know I’m I’m concerned to see where you are proposing to take that money from because earmarked reserves are earmarked with a rationale
As to why we want to set that money aside and what it is to be spent on and therefore there are consequences associated with um reducing those earmarked reserves some of which I think are ring fence funds for very particular things that we can’t touch so some of
These lines are out of bounds and others will you know fall disproportionately towards funding this um this quite significant sum of of money um also we’re told that the general Reserve um is you know looking healthy in terms of the statutary minimum that we’re required to to provide um but also it
Would be help helpful for this committee for members um ahead of the full Council decision to understand where this money is going to come from um and I think it I would like to be seeking support from um members of the committee for a recommendation on this that that it is
Actually you know that where this money is coming from in year for the 31st of March is actually identified in this table so that we can all be clear on what the money movements are that will have to take place by the 31st of March in order to balance the books
For this financial year so that that’s that’s one point I’m not expecting answers in the room now but I think that information should be provided so that we can all be clear on that and the consequences of it for the lines that are going to have funding removed
And the risks associated with doing that so I think a bit of a narrative around that is is required um and the other question that I’ve got on on reserves is that there’s been very little utilization of the eart grants that have been carried forward in this financial
Year compared to last um do you have more information on the detail of what these comprise and whether Contin contining to hold these back in reserves is delaying progress in making investments in areas of the council’s operation or you know the county um and what the reason is for
Doing very little with them this year can CH can I ask a supplementary to that um if they grant money are they are they time sensitive would they then have to go back if they weren’t spent as Enis this year thank you chair so firstly I thank you for acknowledging that back in
September we made it clear on the QT report that we will be looking to uh to reserves uh as part of the normal routine financial management in Q4 uh a decision we made as part of that process which of those reserves we will go to at that at which was the most appropriate
At that time uh as I say that’s that is normal Financial uh prudent management at the end of the the the fin close down processes um to pick up your second point about the E mark grants we can will provide you with the details of
Those grants and if any of them are term sensitive some of those grants are will be we have to spend them in a certain time frame and some of those we get from government will have a long time frame so we’ve just received an announcement
Uh last week that we were about to get 1.8 million pounds Capital grant for providing certain things to be provided in the spring of 2026 so it’s not unusual to have money sitting there and Mark grants that we hold for quite a while um because we have to meet the criteria or government
Will tell us or the grant making body can say and it can be a couple of years in front of us so that that’s not an unusual position but as Council stop will’ll provide the breakdown okay than thank you for that and you know given that you have received some late information about
Some extra money coming in it gives me the opportunity to ask the question given the um the draft settlement information that was provided um in December is there any additional funding that has been provided as a consequence of that or indicated as a consequence of that that is not reflected in the most
Upto-date information that we’ve had had provided to us here through you chair and the paper you saw last week about the refy budget was very clear that an update will be brought to the cabinet uh at the end of the month around the outcome of the draft and settlement the draft
Settlement was draft announced just before Christmas the consultation process closed uh this morning and I know there have been a number of representations what I can say when you look at the um the draft settlement for harage in terms of the grant adjustments we actually lose um about £100,000 worth
Of grant money in money out so that the grant settlement has reduced we are allocated an additional amount for new homes bonus about £800,000 and there was some technical adjustments um in terms of the arrangements of business rates at the moment the proposal is there is flat
Cash for the rural Services Grant on there and if you know last year we made the point through the of network that actually is a real terms cut I know that um councelor Phillips has been speaking to ministers today I’ve just had an email while we the meeting pointing out
That um a challenge for us so the mtfs and you’ll say assuming flat cash let’s be hopeful that um his conversation has will bear fruit and we’ll get some more money but we’ll provide an update as soon as we hear about that okay thank you I mean it it given
That officers have been as as diligent as they have in trying to Pro provide the most upto-date information to us in the updated um papers that have been provided um you know it it’s nice to hear in the room about that information um but it might have been
Nicer to have been able to have had that as a as a you know as a sort of an addendum to the um to the figures that went to uh to Cabinet in December for us to be able to consider um going back to your answer councelor stodart in terms
Of where the money’s going to come from for the 13.8 I recognize that it may be that there is not a final decision on this however it would be helpful and you know appropriate in transparency terms for an indication to be provided to members as to where you plan to get this
Money from in order to balance the books this year particularly given that you know over the last three years about a about about 30 million pounds has had to be taken to spend on children’s services um and you know we’re running very thin on where we’ve got to go to
Find money to plug the gaps and it goes back to the concerns that I was Raising earlier in the meeting as to what degree of confidence we have and we should have in terms of delivering a balanced budget and defendable balanced budget to full Council um that you know we understand
You know and and we we make the necessary um adjustments in order not to build undefendable risk into the financial figures that we put before full Council but I think understanding where where our Pips are squeaking against our general and um earmarked reserves in finding this 13.8 million at
Least giving an indication would be appropriate again the 3.8 million was the estimate at Q2 so it could we we’ll find out with Q3 very soon and then hold into Q4 uh the review for for what which which of the various e mar reserves and general fund balance that’s ongoing as
We speak and will of course be reported as part of the outturn after the year end but we can we will look to give you an an early advisory on where we believe we’ll be going to but it may not be until the the the the actual Q4 is
Finished these figures are being presented as part of the the the evidence supporting the budget we have to take them on the you know as the evidence that you’re providing supporting your budget if we’re going to if you’re going to be providing in these figures what you are referring to as
Forecasts for the end of the year you’re already indicating that they’re not you know cast in stone but these are your forecasts I would like to be seeking um committee members support for a recommendation to be that you also provide a forecast of where you’re going to be getting this 13.8
From across our reserves yes and we will we can provide you with a forecast but the final result will be in the the Q4 out understood but I think that forecast is an important piece of information to take to full Council thank thank you members any further questions on uh on
Reserves um councilor councelor Fagen yeah chair it was just a quick one about the um designated schools Grant because that obviously at the moment is um sort of uh ring ring fenced um and but that as far as I understand is only for the sort of next financial year ahead and uh
Does does that pose a threat to our reserves as well the is it 1.2 million um from that Grant um sorry from from the the overspend for the special needs so it’s just are are we building in uh some sort of option as to how how this will be dealt
With um I’m just given that we know that that kind of high needs Dem demand is is increasing there you go it says here that the risk cannot currently be mitigated expenditure will be monitored in part of routine budget monitoring Arrangements um but the the high needs
Deficit 1.1 million at 31st of March 2023 sits as a negative unusable reserve on the balance sheet permitted by via statutory instrument and that this statutory instrument expires at the end of 25 26 so it says there with implied risk to the general fund and overall financial position if the council is
Required to fund the deficit so is there some sort of mitigation in place or is it just a case of we we’re just going to wait and see what you know what happens whether whether we do end up overspending which given the the national picture looks like that’s strong possibility and
Whether the government whichever government it is at that time actually deals with this issue sure if I pick that there it’s quite a technical area because the issue of H dispense and DSG environment we have various staty overrides put in place by government telling us how to treat
Measur so if you just read from the mtfs that we have followed the Strategic guidance and they’re very clear that for that guidance will be in place until the end of 2526 and March 26 at that point the government of the day will either address it or will give us a further
Slash so we don’t know what the outcome will be this has been reported at every Council just by every Council in England and Wales and has the same problem that there is a DSG overspend and government are saying they are will find a solution not have that solution presented yet so
We are complying with the S override we’re waiting for for the government guidance we’re not likely to get that before we set our budget um in February but we’ve made it very there in the papers that’s the situation we’re in ultimately we could ultimately be asked
To to fund that every Council land would be and I think that there will be a very significant lobbying from all councils that’s the government’s position so potentially in the future it poses a risk to our reserves and that’s what we said in the MPS there is a latent risk there but at
The moment we have the sash over and govern saying have been VAR undertak they will find a solution to this we just don’t know that solution will be thank you members and uh and with with that are we closing our our questioning and moving to uh identifying recommendations from the last meeting
And whether any of them have been addressed as a consequence of information provided in the interim and recommendations from from this meeting I’d like to take the opportunity to thank all our officers particularly the finance team for all of their hard work and you know the lack of having a
Christmas and a new year and seeing their families and all the rest of it in order to pull this information together on the statutary time scales and thank you to cabet members who’ve uh stuck with us to the end um even though we haven’t called on all of you to um to
Answer questions thank you very much for taking the time to be with us and same goes for uh for leader and chief executive thank you very much members um I think we need to be reminded of the uh the draft recommendations that came forward from uh from last week’s meeting and uh I’d
Seek the assistance from uh from officers in uh in prompting us on those thank you chair um I still have in my possession here a list of Fairly unfiltered notes and and I think one of your jobs is going to be determine which of these are actions and which you want
To take forward as recommendations so um there’s about uh two four six eight there’s about 10 from uh your meeting last week uh and I’ve noted um uh about half a dozen more actions and recommendations so far from this one so um I can’t promise I’ve got all of
Them and I know there was some fairly loose talk about things that might be recommendations and haven’t necessarily captured them so do you want me to go through these in turn and is is it possible for you to put them up on the screen for for people to see while
You uh while you go through them uh can I sh that put on then what do we do L one okay right okay that’s challenging my eyes I’m afraid so if you can you read read them read them out okay okay a re statements of the detail of
The local public local account for adult social care um there was Grace promotion and understanding of funding arrangements for adult social care a more systematic review of self funders likely to run out of resources and to fall into our responsibility uh there was a actions around early
Help around all age commissioning uh to be kept as a separate budget line to seek Clarity on the allocation and use of all Ages social care fund greater Clarity on send transport uh which you suggested you send to the children and young people’s scrutiny committee um evidence justifying income targets
Within planning and mapping of income to sport services and how they manage that in year uh more detail on the bab B living places Savings in uh noted as S2 in the reports delivered on the 10th January um you suggested that the SAT saving as as detailed on the 10th of
January is listed as an income rather than a saving and that you rofile savings to ensure that they reflect actual delivery were the suggestions made in that meeting on the 10th okay well start starting at the top um um it wasn’t it the the suggestion
Was that there used to be um a public local account report produced annually for um indicating how adult social care funding um had been spent through the year and what the services were that were delivered and I think that was the recommendation on that one that to to reinstate the
Publication of a public local account to um inform the public as to um the way that uh adult social care funding um was spent annually by the council and that that was something that the director was supportive of so that was the first recommendation um the second one was
Around uh the risk that was presented by us not having um uh contact with all of the self funders um in the county of their uh residential uh care um ah ahead of them coming to the point where they can no longer um uh support their own their own care
Packages and there was a request that there was some Assurance provided as to what the um approach was going to be that would be taken in adult social care in order to develop that relationship with self funders that we don’t presently have because that was was going to be a
Mitigation for what we were seeing as a developing risk um that was going to fall to the council so that was um uh a recommendation for um I think that was a a recommendation for Action um and some information to come back probably to the adult social care
Scrutiny committee um to give them a bit more detail on what was going to be happening in preparing for that something about early help is not very helpful no I appreciate I appreciate it but that’s all I have okay okay well we’ll we’ll hop over that for a minute there was a recommendation
That the um that the funding for all age commissioning rather than being wound into the budget for adult social care was retained as a separate discrete line in the budget as it has been for this financial year um and the the way that the Figures were
Presented um when it comes to uh full Council that there is Clarity in terms of how the ring fenced element of the council tax um for uh adult social care uh is brought out in the way the figures are presented and um my recollection is that the I think the medium-term
Financial strategy might already have actioned that in terms of showing the uh ring fenced adult social care funding um and its and its predicted level for future years um in the table in appendix B um but that was really a um an action for officers in terms of the the way
That the figures are presented for cabinet and for full Council uh action to yes to children and scru uh Young Young Person’s scrutiny in terms of um investigating send transport end to end and how the uh the information and pipeline is is understood and managed um okay there was a question mark over
Whether planning actually had or did not have a structural deficit in in terms of um uh its income Target and if it doesn’t have one that um there is supporting evidence that there is a pipeline to justify the level of T the level of income that it is being targeted to
Deliver because it hasn’t delivered that level of income over the last two or three years so that’s that’s a recommendation um in order to assist in justifying the balancing of the budget that’s brought forward um BBL savings we were asking for more information to be provided um
Ahead of this meeting we haven’t had it but there are consultations that are underway presently with um with members on on the options uh but again I think by the time this comes to um back to cabinet that it would be helpful if there was um some clarity on how that
450 million uh sorry that how that 450k is being proposed to be uh broken out against um uh services in the annual plan and I think the public will be quite keen on that particularly given uh the way that some of the um previous years Cuts have uh impacted on Services
Is that recomendation that’s a recommendation yeah um s saving list it as oh yes that was something that was income that was showing uh that was an increased income that was showing as a saving so that’s really an action in terms of how the um information is presented
Um and there was a general request across all of the directorates Savings in terms of how they’re presented that that there is a a relook given to uh whether they are uh reflecting how the savings are actually going to be delivered um against the courters and just asking for
A sense check on that so I think that was an action shout out if any members of the committee are recollecting different ly on that um any help with the early help just trying to remember I I I think what was coming out of it was uh
That for us that children’s scrutiny and the adult scrutiny actually potentially uh work together to look at the early help offer across the the board um it was certainly something that that came sort of became evident during the discussions is that actually a lot of the early help that provision that’s
Being made in the county is actually going through the um adult and communities directorate rather than through the children’s directorate particular particularly talk community and this uh work that needs to be done about prevention yeah it it was noted in the meeting that that that both committees were essentially tackling the
Same issue from different angles and it might be worth um both chairs taking some time to um to sort of plan that work and perhaps return back with with something unified rather than um sort of working separately okay was there also a question about sufficiency in terms of
Whether the investment that was being made in early help commissioning early Help Services was was being targeted appropriately and meeting the needs that were causing um uh deprivation and concern in in terms of the environment for children no no yes it is certainly something that that we’ve discussed I’m
Not entirely sure that we sort of raised it as a as a recommendation but it was under discussion we’ll leave that as an action then that um the two scrutiny committees um look at how they’re going to um keep an eye on that uh recommendations from today today
Um I’ve got down um that we were recommending that the uh the best practice in terms of um uh the um cpfa and uh treasury management uh guidance from link was um uh was confirmed as being followed and that it the information was available
For uh all lines in the uh all lines in the capital program that was more around the um chair I think that was more around the B business cases were ading yeah yeah the the the the business cases were following the the the list of best practice points that have been provided by
Link can we CH if if I might there’s we’re again we’re now at half five again now um we would have to uh if we’re going to agree these we’re going to have to take an adjournment to rewrite them to draft them then to come back and then to vote
On them um I I don’t think you’ve got time to do this in in the space of this meeting going forward now um I I think I’m not quite sure we we can’t leave it hanging we have to finish and have some recommendations and then we’re going to
Need to take an adjournment I’m going to recommend we take an adjournment so we can actually agree the wording of all of these because um at the moment all we have as rough notes so I think I would suggest we take an adjournment um and we
We we thrash them out we rewrite them and then we put them back on the board and agree them I would remind you this meeting is still live at the moment indeed and and and I have my screen on here and um my unfiltered notes um I I’m not sure that
This is a particularly good way of drafting the recommend recomendations I suggest a we take an adjournment to continue this work offline and come back on and agree them okay well we’ll do a 10-minute adjournment then we are live okay thank you everybody for
Bearing with us while we uh we did a bit of word smithing um what we’ve done is um focused on uh sorting out what the recommendations are from the uh the committee’s two sessions on the budget uh we have a number of action points which um will be captured in the minutes
And provided to officers in order to um update document ation in time for a revised version of the budget to go to cabinet and on to full Council uh but as far as the recommendations are concerned um we have seven um and I’ll just ask officers to
Uh to read those out now for us please thank you chair they are as follows uh one that income and charging detail is provided for services in each directorate two investment in and level of Target support is made clear in the budget three evidence justifying income targets within the planning service are
Provided four ongoing monitoring of performance in areas where M savings were taken for the 2425 Financial year five to provide more detail on the proposed savings with regard to the bplp contract six for the administration to provide a forecast of where they are minded to adjust eart and general
General Reserve lines to deliver the required 13.8 million to cover the overspend forecast ACC to in children’s services and seven to provide further evidence to give confidence that the savings of £2.5 million in the children and young people directorate are deliverable based on evidence in quarter 3 and quarter 4 2023
24 thank you uh now committee members um are you content to uh take a vote on those recommendations on block excellent okay um could I request that um somebody proposed them Council Fagen I’ll I’ll second them from the chair if we can take a vote on
Those then in favor oh just to point out Council Thomas can’t vote no I I re I recognize that I’m grateful for your support um online councelor Thomas but I’m afraid you can’t vote because you’re not in the room with us um however I note that you are supportive of those
Recommendations and uh thank you for that and indeed still with us thank you in so members in favor thank you that’s unanimous okay thanks everybody um sorry there’s uh been an overrun on this it’s been um emotional um so thank you very much and and um I’ll just close the meeting do we
Have a date of next meeting for scrutiny management board to March March the 19th okay so date of next meeting scheduled for Tuesday the 19th of March 2024 at 2m and with that um I’d like to close the meeting and thank everybody for their attendance thank you