Did the Tour Down Under Reveal Pro Cycling’s Next Big Star? | THEMOVE

JB Hager, Johan Bruyneel, and Spencer Martin of the Beyond the Peloton newsletter briefly break down how Israel-Premier Tech’s Stephen Williams won the Tour Down Under, what Bora and Sam Welsford’s sprinting dominance means for the rest of the season, and why Jayco-Alula underperformed at their home race, before getting into the breakout performance from UAE’s 20-year-old Isaac del Toro, who won a stage and finished on the overall podium in his first career WorldTour outing. Afterward, they discuss Sunday’s epic showdown between Wout van Aert, Mathieu van der Poel, and Tom Pidcock at the Benidorm Cyclocross World Cup in Spain, which produced what will likely be the defining race of the 2023/2024 CX season.

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[Applause] Welcome to the Move podcast our very first move show of 2024 we may be a little bit Rusty it’s been a little bit a little bit of absence from it but uh we’re happy to be back and this show you’ve got to stick around and listen to the

Show because I think we’re going to spend a a a big chunk of time talking about one particular writer 20 years old who may be the greatest Talent we’ve seen in a couple of years right it wasn’t that long ago we were like who are these new Young Stars this show in

Particular we’re going to share a name with you that we’ve not talked about before and we’re going to talk about a lot today before we get into that with Johan and Spencer uh I just want to tell you about a couple of our partners now if you um are like me where it’s

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Start with this U and again we’re going to get into this new talent that we’re going to spend a lot of time talking about incredible Talent Rising Star but first let’s let’s uh oh by the way I’m joined by Johan Bernal and Spencer Martin and they’re going to break down

This year’s tour uh tour Down Under first big race of the Season First World Tour race of the Season let’s start with you Spen and let’s go through some of the stages quickly and then we’ll go deep on some details yeah thanks JB well this will be

Quick because I will say this was maybe not my favorite route of the tour Down Under the first four stages um probably just could have been pencel in at Sprint stages the big takeaway from the Sprints Sam wellsford win stage one 3 four all Bunch Sprints Bora on his Bora team he’s

On Bora now went over from DSM in the offseason bore unbelievably strong Danny van Popp as lead out Rider Johan t Eed in the pre-show that he’s now the best Undisputed best lead out rider in the world I would tend to agree so we don’t really need to go deep on those other

Than San wellsford massive writer like 80 kilos riding a 56 too chain ring just absolutely like you could see the power oozing off of him riding people off of his wheel the only thing that Disturbed that was stage two Isaac Del Toro the new signing I believe he’s 20 years old

Um first year professional first professional race second race he’s ever done at the professional level attacks off of Full lead out from Israel premere Tech steals stage two just absolutely it was unbelievable I couldn’t believe the amount of power he must have been putting off you could just see it

Through the screen and then the weekend came around we had stage five and six two a little bit more interesting stages stage five finished up Wonga Hill uh that’s the famous summit summit finish they have at the tour down under um I believe it’s in here every year Oscar

Onley from DSM won that you might be asking who who’s that he’s 21 years old on DSM his first professional win as well um Steven Williams from uh he is on Israel premere Tech this year did a really good job of finishing second big takeaways from that is jco kind of

Imploded on the climb maybe blew up Simon Yates Simon yat just really not strong enough to to stay in the front group so he loses time kind of falls out of the GC next stage stage six and also Julian Al Philipe was up there on stage five Isaac delor also finishes up

Towards the front so those were two names that I thought I’d call out stage six finish on Mount lofty another one of these South Australian you know fast fast fast Summit finishes like they are climbs but they’re they’re not ridden at the same Pace as a European climb these

Guys are flying up these things because they’re short enough shallow enough for them to almost turn them into reduced Bunch Sprints and that’s exactly what Steven Williams did Isaac deloro did a great job to attack to try to get back into the GC lead stepen Williams was

Right on his wheel and then kind of expertly finished off the win to seal the overall um Oscar Onley who won the day before was distanced fell out of the top three so it was Steven Williams Jonathan navarus and Isaac deloro on the podium we’ll talk a little bit about

Navarus from he’s on inos he won a stage of the zero a few years ago I was kind of unaware that he was such a good he he was really good Sprinter in the opening both Criterium and then throughout this race good Sprinter good climber I’m

Curious to ask you guys why you think he hasn’t shown more in bigger races but you know the the tour on under is a funny balance between you know we say like Simon Yates wasn’t up to Snuff joob bad race but there’s a balance where you

Don’t want to be too good because we are so early in the season you know Riders who win here actually don’t tend to win that much the rest of the year so there’s an inverse correlation between really being fit here and being fit 6 months later in the meat of the season

So you have to walk find line and so it’s hard to pull out you don’t want to extrapolate too much from this but there are some little hints you can pull out like uh Isaac Del Toro obviously looked amazing I think great things to come and then um Johan pulled

Out another one Bart lemon on on team visma I guess it’s visma Lisa bike this year 28-year old rider but only in his second year as a full-time Pro um doing incredibly well I believe you got Fifth and fourth in the last two Summit finishes so you you can extrapolate some

Things out from here but you you don’t want to get locked into too many um declarative statements like Sam wellsford is the best Sprinter in the world and like let’s just start right there Johan like what should we read into this these Sprint performances from

Both him and Bora well as you said SP by the way you know I think we we can finish the podcast because you basically said everything I want to say already but no we’ve got more we’ve got more in store for you uh no it’s it’s like you

Said Spencer you know two down under it’s the f world to First World to race uh but you know in the big scheme of uh on the agenda of all the big teams it is not a big thing uh it’s I would say I would actually say you know if they

Would let the freedom for their the the the teams to decide they wouldn’t go to the tour down Hunter because uh yes it’s an important race um but you know all the logistical hassle that comes with it is is a nightmare for teams uh you know

You have to most of these most of the teams that are actually going to the the riders that go to two round under are not able to attend the first train the the the early training camp of the team uh you have to go there you know at

Least 10 days on beforehand to adjust to the the time difference to the heat um and then on the way back you have the same the same problem so um it’s uh it’s a race where I would say a lot of teams and a lot of writers go there to

Basically get the engine going and you know it’s not such a big deal the the you know it’s you can see from from my experience from when I was there you know it’s all the teams are in the same Hotel it’s a very relaxed atmosphere fun

You know guys are joking it’s there’s no stress uh it’s not a high tension race uh now you know if if you know that on beforehand you can clearly see that there are some Riders and some teams who take advantage of that which is very

Smart you know in in the case of of uh Israel Premier tech for example um you know Steve Williams um good Rider but you know he’s until now he has never shown that he was like at the level to win a big world tour race you know he

Was on I think he was on Bahrain before before this year uh a few years and uh he won a stage in the tour of Switzerland one time other than that you know he’s a very he’s a good riter but he’s never performed at this level like

And and and if you see you know he he was up there takes the jersey and then with the leader Jersey wins the last stage that’s that’s being dominant that’s like okay this is my race and nobody’s going to take this away from me and so we have never seen that so it’s

Clear that both him and the rest of his team have prepared two down under very very specifically and targeted this race to to win um then you know uh obviously Sam wellsford the same thing he’s you know you could say he’s the best Sprinter well he’s not he’s a he’s a

Good Sprinter but you know first of all the best sprinters were not here and then on top of that I I would want to bet money that on the fact that he has prepared specifically for this race being an Australian having spent the whole winter in Australia and on top of

That the race passed through his home region on top of that was his birthday so you know this was a goal for him and and you know he did really well I mean winning three stages three World Tour St stages that’s you know there’s there’s a

Lot of riders who will not get to that number at the end of the season so um you know the guys who really Target this race I would say you know Well Done uh but as you say we cannot take any conclusions out of out of the the

Results of this race yeah even when we talk about Sam wellsford being so dominant you look at two of the other sprinters who are right up there who used to be dominant Caleb euan who still has question marks right and then uh gear May who looks to be on the comeback

From from injury but I think I think one of those are on top form right well I mean gai uh I think it’s good to see him back there he struggled last year I mean he had you know he was struggling at the beginning of the year then he had a few

Crashes uh obviously you know there was a lot of pressure on him because he had such an amazing season in 2022 um but um but yeah I think it’s good to see him back um you know he’s he’s he’s the case of uh of K buan um

It’s a bit of an unknown um there was um there were some rumors before the before the D on under that he was sick you know they didn’t they didn’t start him in the Criterium which you know is ideal for him it’s an ideal race so they didn’t

Start him there so obviously he was he was not feeling well so we don’t know if that had an impact on his performances but I think it’s safe to say that Jak KO alula were expecting uh a lot more from the whole race but also a lot more from

From Caleb euan and um you know he has not been ever in any stage he had not even come close to winning you know he was trying to find his position and then the one time he kind of had his position he wasn’t fast enough so um comes off a

Difficult season you know after all his problems with with lot of Destiny so I think we should still give him the benefit of the doubt uh but it’s I think for Caleb Yan the same situation is it’s like for other other guys you know you know on

The one hand they’re still young 27 28 29 but at the same time these young guys keep coming from everywhere and uh before you know it you’re you’re an old guy and you you’re not in the game anymore so you know hopefully for for caleban this is not the case but it’s

Not a good start for him yeah and I from B bam gai like I saw exactly what I wanted to see from him you know I think it’s these are a we should just mention these are not good stages for for a guy like him like let’s

Just look at stage four he gets second behind wellsford the only Rider not to get dropped when wellsford was sprinting that’s how hard wellsford was going but it was 2 hours and 59 minutes not a lot of climbing like that’s not where shines that’s actually where someone like Sam

Wellsford a former trackie big guy 80 kilos pushing a massive gear all these finishes were kind of uphill so it was just like tailor made for wellsford I I saw what I needed from gai great like great progress from him I think he’s going to be back to his best

In 2024 the UN stuff you know and I just said we don’t want to make declarative statements based on this race I that was a little concerning to me like stage three on the on the hoods you know on the hoods in the saddle in the Sprint

You know that tells me that he just doesn’t feel confident that he can find the positioning he needs he’s he’s been suffering from this for two years at this point last year is at this race if you remember with the uni it’s like the University of South Australia team so

You you excuse him for not being in position like well he doesn’t have his normal team he’s with you know guys he doesn’t normally ride with he’s here with Jo who in theory should have the ability to position him and he just was out of position almost every almost

Every day like that’s concerning to me and you know maybe he’ll have a great comeback later in the year but you know that that was something that I noticed that probably my biggest takeaway um from from these Sprint stages but just him not being able to even be in

Position to contest the Sprints yeah and another thing I mean now that we’re talking about uh Caleb euan you know the whole team Jak alula uh big disappointment um I think the the biggest disappointment of the race you know I uh I saw an interview of Luke

Plap who you know by the way crashed on stage Tre had to abandon and you know with him it would probably have been a different story uh because he was their guy he was the strong guy you know he was super dominant in the Australian championships obviously you know looking

At his statements and his interviews he was you know his morale was Skyhigh but you know he said well basically we’re here to to win every stage and the whole thing and you know finally they go home with no victories and and their first guy Simon Yates is

The seventh so that’s obviously not a good result for J Wula in their in their home race so um I think they’re going to be disappointed you know in their favor of course uh they have had the the the bad luck with Luke plap but obviously

Not not a good start for them before we move too far away from talking about the sprinting uh you got to add to it that the lead out that wellsford had was pretty interesting time yeah donon poo has become you know has become I think you know he he uh

Last year he he he did it with um what was it with the Irish guy um forget his name Benn s Bennett yeah s Bennett you know s Bennett was not in in the best shape uh um but you know he has become in my

Opinion the best he’s like a morof or I I think he’s better than morkov he’s faster um and you know once he get once he gets a free a free line uh there’s no stopping him um you know sometime there will be stages that because V poppo you

Know once he get that gets that come there will be stages where his Sprinter won’t be able to come around him I I that’s a prediction I’m making for this year he’ll get a win as a lead out yeah I think he had a funny quote it was

One kind of wasn’t that funny but after the first stage he was like yeah it’s like nice to be sprinting for or leading out like a good Sprinter finally like oh my God like don’t uh don’t ever leave Bora they they’ll roast you in the Press

But yoan do you think I agree Van Poppel the best lead out writer in the world is he has he has a great DNA you know I mean his his his father Jean Paul Van poel was you know in the late 80s beginning 90s he was the fastest

Sprinter in the world too you know won a lot of D the FR stages and uh so you know he has that going for him and his brother beat beat Mark Cavendish at a tour Missouri stage that I was at and I was like oh wow this guy’s going to be

The next great Sprinter and then I think that’s maybe the last race that he won you see DNA doesn’t always work for both you know that’s not fair I mean you have the same with with mat V and his brother you know one guy’s Superstar and the

Other guy is okay you know so I mean just to have a career as a pro though is is pretty impressive but but is wellsford their best spinner is he the best spinner on that team I mean it’s kind of funny cuz Jordy Jordy m mayus is that how you’d say his

Name like he’s the one he’s the tour to France winning Sprinter tour to France stage winning Sprinter on that team like what are they going to do later in the in the real European summer well I don’t think this is they’re not the same kind of sprinters I think Jordi Ms is you

Know he’s super tall you know difficult to lead him out because you know he’s the drafting is not going to be tremendous for him so he kind of has to you know go off other Wheels but um they’re two different types of sprinters in my opinion Jordi Ms is strong like

You know when when the race has been hard and when when it it’s probably when it’s a slower Sprint that he’s in my opinion wellsford is a pure Sprinter he’s like a you know ball of fire you know I’ve actually spent this won’t surprise you guys the last two weeks

Going back through every Grand Tour stage of the last few years and something I’ve noticed are not surpris we are not surprised Sprinter are they’re they’re shrinking like it’s fashionable in Australia if you’re out in melbour on a group ride you’d say you know wellsford is the best Australian

Spinter he’s better better than Kaden Groves but you get to these grand Tours and the sprinters are much smaller like yasper Phillips been not a big big guy but he’s not winning because he’s faster or more powerful he’s winning because he’s less tired and less fatigued

Because these stages are so hard by the time he gets to the Sprint he can be faster because he’s just a fitter more complete Rider it kind of makes me wonder about this like we’re almost seeing a bifurcation of these really powerful guys and then they go to the

Tour and they’re not not able to not or even the welta or the Ziro they’re not able to really replicate different different game Spencer different game let’s let’s you know we come back to the same let’s not compare the tour down under where the stages are 120 130 140k

Not super hard uh and you know probably you know the 80% of the pelaton is not there super focused which is complet completely different in the in the big races in Europe can we unpack Luke pl’s statement for a second I mean I I think he probably wins this race overall if he

Doesn’t crash he was absolutely flying but his team won two two races this weekend they just were on a different continent they were in Europe with Dyan Gran and Michael Matthews winning uh Spanish races on Saturday and Sunday they didn’t I would say they did not

Send their best team to this race is is this strategic by them or no I I think they did I think they you know they okay obviously I think their their big Focus was to win the Tour down under so if you want to win the Tour down under you’re

Not going to focus on the sprinters that’s why they put Caleb euan who’s you know uh who who’s you know not their best Sprinter for the moment to be fair um and they were F I mean they had Luke plop they had Simon Yates and they had

Chris Harper which you know are three guys who could in theory have won it but you know seeing Luke pl’s form his dominance in the in the Australian championships uh his motivation I think that was their big leader uh you know bad crash in stage three so everything

Changed um you know that’s how cycling goes um you know it’s it’s it’s unfortunate because Luke plop did a big move you know he left inos if I’m not mistaken he still had a year on his contract and he he left to uh to Jak to be the leader there um and

So you know his his first big goal was to win through on under you’re right I think he Pro he would would have probably won it what were the ex I mean we saw a lot of missing skin uh from Crash what what were the uh injuries do

We did we get an update looking for looking at the the rest of the season was well no there’s nothing broken there’s nothing broken but you know I mean if you if you like that and you know even if there’s you know even if it’s such just superficial I mean you

Know the the night he probably had a super bad night you know your body reacts he can get a little fever you know they pulled him out of the race they he he actually didn’t abandon he they pulled him out of the race right so

Uh I think that was that was a smart decision tough decision tough decision to make definitely I it’s this is like my pet theory that road rash is the most underrated injury in cycling because your body has to regrow skin which is very hard for it to do so if you try to

Fight through if crash really hard like if you pull a RIT and you’re a mummy you know you can be okay for a day or two and then you start to just Decline and you can put yourself in a deep hole trying to train and race through that so

I I think it’s smart what they did it’s probably early enough in the year he can recover um I I think this normally could be tough but we’re so early and he has so much time to recover I hope he’s fine because it’s you know that was like the

Best I’ve I’ve seen him in years was the last few weeks yeah and super confident you know I mean we saw a few attacks from him uh and he was I mean you know narv finishes what he finishes second in GC second in GC and he Luke PL had him on

The ropes uh in that one stage where he attacked um and so narvis I mean talking about him you know it’s uh you you asked you asked okay did you did why didn’t why why didn’t he win any big races yet you know I think narvis is one of those writers he

Is very um you know he he can he can do different things he’s fast you know he want that he want that crit yeah just before the before the T Down Under uh he’s pretty good uphill as long as it’s not real big climbs and I this most

Importantly I’ve seen this guy do things in this in the Belgian Classics you know with with short cobbled uphills that you know that guy’s strong like that’s in my opinion that’s like his specialty the the the spring Classics uh I do remember that last year he had a crash in the in

One of the races probably waterham or harle and he broke his collar bone so that’s probably why we didn’t much of him last year but the guy is super talented um you know in the spring we’re we’re going to see him we’re going to see him up there he’s not afraid to

Fight for position I mean you know one of those other things you know like you know like new things in cycling you know who would have thought you know a South American would have been up there you know rubbing shoulders with in the in the spring Classics with all these big

Guys like vanart and VPO and uh he’s one of those guys he’s he’s pretty good he’s probably the type of guy too who I don’t want to be unkind to inos but just goes to inos and like gets stuck you know not a not a super Talent like even someone

Like Luke PL kind of got it’s like what is he we don’t know what to do with him he’s always kind of stuck behind their GC Ambitions Maybe doesn’t get fostered in the way he should in the Cobble Classics but yeah I had no idea he was

This fast in the Sprints I mean he looked incredible yeah yeah all right before we get into talking about this Rising Star which we’re going to spend some time on I want to tell you about a couple of our other partners uh we appreciate their support of this show uh

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And it won’t last long with Helix sleep better sleep starts now all right now we’re going to jump into something that I’ve just been since stage two I’ve been dying to talk about this I know you guys are excited about this young riter only 20 years old pulls out the stage win

Which Spencer already mentioned Delo uh from uh Team UAE where do we start with this kid a freak Talent yeah well I mean we we I remember we were last year the tour to the lair uh we had Matthew ritello in the yellow and it looked like he was

Going to win to 11 year and then you know we were I I remember on the group chat people were hey what about this Mexican guy I said ah you know Matthew has this you know and then you know the the the second I think the the second

Last stage rello and uh Del Toro go to the finish together real mountain stages by the way Big Mountain stages not nothing like T Down Under like real real mountains uh so um deloro stays with rello Beats him in the Sprint but they come in together and then the last stage

Basically he um he he destroyed he destroyed the race and and won the overall uh which you know as a Mexican Rider is already a sensation in itself um then you go back a little bit you know he was racing on a on a on a Mexican teamate also so this this this

Team has uh I think it’s called ar ar monx or something uh they have they have uh they also have some some like a subsidiary in Italy so the guy raced a bit in Italy um but uh but from there you can see mean this guy’s this guy’s

The real deal I mean if if you go off what you see in the tour to lavir you say the guy’s a climber guy’s a pure climber because the two last stages were for climbers there were only climbers there and he dominated those two stages

Uh then to see that you know he he’s the first of all he was third in the in the the prologue of the of ton under in the crit as a climber that’s not bad uh but the way he he won stage two was was amazing amazing because you know

And and as as Spencer said you know and it’s been a very long time since I’ve seen a rider uh attack in the last kilometer when the pellaton is going full speed with you know sever several Sprint trains of teams already going 50 55 km

Per hour a guy who just goes I mean and for those who have seen the footage you know if you look at the helicopter view the way he goes was just incredible I’m glad you brought that up that helicopter view of of Del Toro looked like pachar

To me the way he sits on the bike the shoulders in he he kind of has the handlebars very similar he’s taller he’s he’s tall he’s quite a bit taller and the way he swayed the bike I just like wait pachar is not in this race but there’s some similarities yeah yeah I

Mean new guy 20 years old you know they keep coming they keep coming um it’s it’s it’s amazing but you know to be in your first race okay let’s let’s say again you know it it is only the two down under but this is for this guy the

Biggest race he’s ever done right I mean he and and at the end of the day he is racing against World T Riders and some of them are top level World to Riders you know to pull that off that’s that’s already amazing but then to stay up

There uh on Wonga and the last stage which you know two hard stages not not climber stages but you know I mean he stayed up there he he he lost his jersey on stage five but he was he only lost five seconds and then um and then

Yesterday he was he was third in the stage uh again so um I think he basically he only I think he Lo he probably lost the tour done under because of a lack of experience and probably you know not being able to be patient enough um and then he probably

Still would have lost a bit the bonification or something but but still I mean to be up there in your first race against guys who you know I mean for sure Steve Williams and uh and narvis have prepared this race full gas you could say also you know a 20-year-old

Has probably also prepared the season full gas because you know he’s dying to race and uh you know um but still I mean really impressive and I would like to say one thing uh you know one of our uh I spent uh I spent the day uh a few

Weeks ago uh with you know one of our future guests for the move Legends I’m not going to give away his name but uh he I could say he’s probably one of the three best writers in history of cycling um and so he was our guest for

For one of the episodes and uh after the podcast we had lunch and he told me he started to talk about this isak Del Toro he said look at this guy you know because the T laer I was there last year and I saw him and this guy is special

And one week later he uh he wins his first race in in his first race in the in the world tour so yeah that was uh yeah I I I I I remembered his words when when I saw his victory well what I yeah and what I like

About delor is yeah JB you’re right he kind of has this it’s unorthodox lean like it’s not how you would teach it but worked for pagar the bike’s moving all over the place he just seems like an uncut gem almost like the guy you know there’s Young Riders like um UDA Brooks

Who just everything is perfectly planned out he knows exactly what he’s doing dialed in Del Toro seems like someone who’s who’s like still has room to improve and when we go back to that stage two performance I just want to put this into context so context Luke PL

Attacks with like let’s say 78k to go goes with nas Nas for some reason attacks him I’m not quite sure why you would attack someone who’s working with you when you’re off the front but they can’t they can’t get away from the pelaton it’s that fast then Quinn

Simmons attacks with another Rider Quinn Simmons pretty pretty good Rider you would say like very a lot of raw power coming off that guy and he’s dangling out in front of the pelaton as they come into the last K Del Toro goes and he goes so hard that it looked like Quinn

Simmons was stuck in mud when he came by him like he went by them so fast and made that move look like oh like that’s a cute little move and you would say that’s like normally one of the strongest moves in the race like Quinn Simmons with one of the rider just like

Digging deep off the front and he it was unbelievable how fast he went through that final kilometer um kind of comes over casually there’s a Sprint finish happening behind him with like a pretty clean lead out from Israel premere Tech who as Johan said was targeting this race and just kind of

Like nonchalantly wins the stage it was really impressive stage five I mean I don’t you’re right he probably lost this race because of inexperience I I don’t and I don’t want to like rake UA over the Kohls because this is Tour on under but that was a it was a sloppy lead into

The climb like they had Riders all throughout the pelaton they had one guy in front of Del Toro Finn fiser black was behind Del Toro he probably should have been in front of him um helping him you know not be in the wind I don’t quite understand what happened there and

Then Del Toro kind of got pushed pretty far back right when the climb started he had to work his way back up he could say that maybe contributed to him being tailed off on you know the final Sprint of Wonga it probably loses it anyway due to bonification though because Williams

Is just such a fast Sprinter yeah well I want to add something about Del Toro because I think this came up on on just our team meeting uh this past week you may recall Spencer but it uh he’s from insata which is not far from the US border because quite often you’re like

Why are there not more Mexican riders that at a high high level uh but maybe he was coming into the US and racing quite often it may have been very convenient do you know more about that I I I don’t think so uh JB sorry sorry

Spencer if you had but what I like to say is you know he was part of this Mexican uh under 23 team um which you know since last year I’ve started to follow them a little bit and these guys are doing a great job uh for The Young Riders I saw their

You know testing facilities and they they have a women’s team also um I think I think he owes everything to that team um as you said before Spencer the Mexican Federation is probably suspended or something or yeah like I don’t oper something it definitely doesn’t come from the Grassroots program in

Mexico and I think that’s probably why we don’t see more Mexican writers I mean we have to think back to uh Raul alala in the in the early 90s to have you know like the a top level Mexican Rider you know alala was probably you know he’s super Talent he

Was super talented he was probably talented enough to win the Tour to France this Rider uh alala probably maybe maybe not professional enough in the beginning um but um but yeah I mean there must be something there that doesn’t work in in Mexico because you know it’s a huge

Country uh they have terrain good weather they have bike races uh so uh I think I think his his uh development is purely due to this Mexican team uh who are doing an amazing job actually yeah and I I think he’s from insata which I heard has good riding so

Probably good riding locally um a great climate you know it’s not very far from San Diego and then as Johan said I mean this team I’m looking at his results now from the last few years raced a lot in Europe I mean that’s the key getting

Those guys to Italy it’s like the best move they ever made you know I think people don’t want to hear it but that’s the best way to develop as a young Rider to get to Europe as young as as young as you can and race as much as you can over

There and then it’s really just a test of can you um you know can you acclimate to the culture and be comfortable there I mean we this is a this is a different podcast but yeah Mexico like I don’t understand why their soccer team isn’t better everyone plays soccer I believe it’s the

Largest Spanish-speaking country in the world unless I’m missing something and you know they’re just like Argentina fraction of the population is is much better so there’s some inefficiency in the Youth Sports Development complex down there yeah the name of the team by the way is AR monx procycling team for

People who want to look it up so what what does the season look like for a writer like this I mean he’s got to get the experience I mean he’s new he’s on will he be supporting pachar or is he just kind of kind of move around and get

Experience this year no for sure not for sure not a not a ground tour I would I I would I mean maybe maybe the WTA at the end of the season but that’s you know I I don’t think so I wouldn’t I wouldn’t put him in a in a ground tour yet uh

Although you know what the hell do I know I mean the new Young Riders nowadays it’s a different game you know um but but I think he’s going to do some you know like some races like you know secondary races and then probably once in a while uh a world tour race but

Without any pressure um I would I would do that I mean for him riding with Pacha on one of those races would not be bad so you have a taste of what it is to be with a you know a top like the best rider in the world and and you know what

It is to how because the team functions completely different uh even if it’s the same UAE team you know the the the way UAE team rode in in ton under and and the way the way UAE team will ride when the races with pogacha it’s a completely

Different different way of racing so I would let him do one of those races I mean he for sure he can do a good job um but I think they you know at this point they probably don’t know what his limit is you know and they want to they

Want to just expose him to different experiences you know maybe maybe a race in the spring Classics so who knows you know why not uh I think he still he still has to find out where his strengths are we already know he can climb and we already know he can Sprint so you

Know you know what race would be perfect for him and what pachar did in his same 20-y old season was Tour California like it’s a shame that’s not around anymore but that’s pagach wins that then as you say Johan he goes to the welt at the

Very end of the year and gets third at the WTA and then it’s Off to the Races from there but yeah I mean really this year I I hope they don’t push them too hard they probably won’t but they won’t they won’t I mean they have a lot of

Riders uh you know plus plus I mean I’ve seen I mean uh what’s what’s interesting you know nowadays in cycling Spencer is that you know all these teams who have a development team uh are actually able to use some of those riders in secondary races for example there’s there’s there’s a guy

Who was last year on my son’s team here in Madrid he’s now 18 uh and he he was the best Junior in Spain he won the national the the Nations cup here uh and he signed for this uh uh gen Z UA team which is you know their development team

Uh but he already raced yesterday with the Professionals in in Valencia uh so they can they can switch them you know they can bring them over from the development team and put them in races and then they go back to the to the young team he he raced as

UAE the team UAE the team UAE is Gen Z that’s that’s that’s like a subsidary they have but they can use those riders in the non world to races now and then okay yeah yeah I was wondering how this works so as long as it’s not World Tour they yes yeah interesting

Interesting and I mean the thing about Del Tor he’s lucky he’s Mexican because if he was American the dreaded the dreaded headline would be out by now is he the next Lance Armstrong as soon as that is written about you as an American writer it’s the same for deloro it’s

It’s for sure is this the next ra Raul alala you know the pressure in Mexico is going to be huge also the thing is you know there’s probably I mean cycling culture in in Mexico is probably not not that big so uh it’s it’s but you know

The guy’s already going to he’s already he’s already going to be a hero in Mexico for sure last year already after winning the tour 11 year he was already a hero all right any other things I know you should see the notes that Spencer sends over from the tour down under it’s

Mindboggling I just I don’t want to cut you off if there’s anything else that you wanted to touch on before we uh I know we want to talk uh uh about the cross racing that’s been going on well hold on to that for a second if there I

Don’t I don’t want to cut you off if there’s anything else I I’m now getting our pre-show and our show confused but I we should say like Johan touched on it Israel specifically trained for this race it’s smart because they want to be back in the world tour when the Books

Open back up and it’s at the end of the 2025 season like this race might not matter you know as you know as much because of the timing and whatnot it’s a far- flowing race but it’s still World Tour UCI points on offer so it’s a very

Smart decision if you’re a team like Israel to do that um I just wanted to call that out that that’s like a very smart thing for them to do you should be if you want UCI points you should be stacking them up this time of year totally makes sense what they did and

And also Spencer another another thing another thing to add is that you know even smarter knowing that your competitor to be back in the world to your lotto Destiny decided to not go to this race y so yeah I think you and maybe it was in your notes but you made

A comparison as far as UCI points tore down under is equivalent to what it’s you might be surprised right right that’s a big a huge race yeah do now it’s not the do Li anymore the do doin Li is the name of the newspaper that used to organize

It and then did you want to get this I don’t want to get us too into the weeds but but yoan has some thoughts on the situation that Israel premere Tech is in is very unique and I had not heard anyone talk about this yet no I thought

It was unique too this is this is probably also one of the reasons why they have gone so hard for T Down Under uh because the month of February in cycling uh is is very special you know there’s no world to races uh so organizers are basically in a great

Position because all the teams want to race all the teams want to race and there’s just not enough races and so uh the organizers are not obligated to take any of the teams they can choose they can pick and choose so because of the horrible things that are going on in the world

Uh some of the organizers have decided to not invite the team Israel Premier Tech uh they have basically no invitations until the end of February so this is another reason I mean that they focused so much on on I mean given you know there’s there’s less points in in

The other races in February but um this is definitely one another reason why they focused so hard on uh on toan under so they have automatic invites to World T race their aut yes because they were second they were second in the world tour in the in the the world teams

Classification is it second division um last year so first and second position have automatic invites to the world to races it’s like an odd it’s an irony where you’re not World Tour you can go to World Tour races but then you can have a hard time getting invited to non

World Tour races which is really the way you rack up points to get back into the world tour so it’s a tough situation they’re in I mean it which which shines light on why they were so so focused on this race you know and and you know a

Team that starts a season off like from the gun really well it sets the tone for you know the atmosphere once you start once you have that first win you can you can you can be racing well as a team and you know just keep chasing that first

Win and it doesn’t come every he becomes desperate you know it brings a lot of Tranquility to the team having having those first wins and okay you know what the pressure’s off you know let’s let’s just keep doing what we’re doing but because once you start to get desperate

For that first win you start to make mistakes because you’re racing too nervously and and this is obviously a benefit of of having such a great start of the season for Israel Premier Tech all right well we’ll wrap this up I know we want to touch on the cross

Season there’s one more thing there’s one more thing I would like to talk about yeah uh something that probably it’s doesn’t doesn’t make a lot of noise but you know if you look at this picture here behind me you have Stevie Williams who’s winning the last stage in the

Leaders jersey and then you have this Rider there from Jim from visma Lisa bike uh Bart lemon probably a guy that nobody ever heard of 28 years old uh and you know I want to specifically spend a bit of time on him because I think it’s a very unique story

You know we have this you know this trend of all these young talents coming up but here we have a different story you know this guy was last year he was on human powered Health uh in season 2023 and it was his first year as a full-time professional the guy was until

Last year he was a colonal in the Royal Dutch Air Force and so 2022 he was racing on a small Dutch team he was combining cycling with his full-time job last year started to be a full-time Pro um I checked his results they’re not impressive but obviously the performance

Staff of the team visma has seen something in this guy and uh you know to be up there in your first big race without too much experience in in in racing actually uh tells me that this guy has a has a big potential I think it’s a unique story you know so coming

So late to the scene um at at 28 years old uh and and be up there he was fourth and fifth in the two hardest stages uh which was you know I was looking so who’s this you know I mean and then I checked his name and checked

His story I think it’s it’s the these guys have looked for something and they’ve seen something in his power or whatever I don’t know what it is that you know made them made the decision to sign him and they uh they were right I mean he’s up there with the big guys so

Shao it’s kind of reminds me when we talked a lot about rogich when he came on Forum we kept going have we seen the best yet because they came to the sport late this could be very similar yeah and J I’m glad you mentioned that JB it highlights

The irony of the sport where these guys should be being discovered by small teams who can’t afford big stars but they’re being discovered by the best team in the sport who has the you know the knowhow and the resources to identify them and just the way they

Think allows them to think is this pilot maybe this 27y old pilot maybe a guy we need to sign most teams wouldn’t think that that would not be a normal train of thought you would have at a pro team but it’s allowing them to scoop up these really good talents that other people

Aren’t seeing but you know if you’re aana you should have signed Bart lemon because that’s the type of Rider you need to like start generating results for you yeah yeah well you know you know if you’re so successful that as as uh jumbu Vima last year Vima Lisa bike this

Year uh you can also take the Liberty to say okay let’s just do it and you know if it doesn’t work out no big deal right yeah yeah I guess if you know he’s powerful and if you know he has power you could at least as you said use them in the

First 100K yeah but you know mean there there are certain uh decisions being made I mean we talked about in the pre-show uh Spencer you know they signed another writer Julian verot who’s already a very experienced wrer has been on different teams he’s been on quickstep in the past he’s been on

Kofidis he’s been on Alpin and then didn’t find a team last year sat out the whole year he was he was racing in Belgium uh individually with a private sponsor just only small races and and this year he was looking for a team he send it sent out his you

Know his resume to different teams and surprisingly Vima signed him Vima signed him for one specific reason they said okay this is a guy that we can use for the first 100 120 kilm in the race to do a specific job you know this is this is

This is like a a Money Ball type of signing you know this is something that we need specifically for this job and and so cycling has changed in that in that point of view also that you know they’re starting to really look for riders for very specific tasks and and

I’m pretty sure that vermot is going to do a great job at that yeah and it’s funny you say he was racing these small races people must be thinking oh this guy was dominating he must have won everything now if you go to his Pro cycling stats page it’s all

These National level races which are the lowest level Pro Race you can be he won one of them last year so Vima is really like going through this with a fine Toth comb and as you say it is Moneyball thinking that other teams should be thinking this way of like can this guy

Perform a specific job for us and not just does he win does he not win stuff like that yeah yeah interesting thought someone who works for the first half of a race and then you don’t see him perhaps that’s interesting I know you guys wanted to touch on the cross season

I have not been as uh glued to it as I was last year because it’s been from what I understand it’s just been the Vanderpool show all season right and then Spencer I think you said uh uh before the show this last cross race this weekend was one of the best you’ve

Seen yeah the irony of this everything we just talked about we just talked for an hour about a race the world tour kickoff race the irony is the best riders in the world are racing on a different continent on on a different day doing a different type of race and

That was today’s uh cyc cross World Cup in in Spain which is like really Ben dorm which you know it’s not it’s not a real cyc cross race it’s you know it’s hot it’s dry you know it’s super fast it was spectacular uh and on top of that it

Is right in the middle of where all the teams are having their training camps I mean vpol vpol actually lives there now I mean he lives in a little town actually where I the same little town where I used to live when I was a pro uh

He bought a house there um vanard was there on training camp uh so Pitcock was was probably there also on training camp so um yeah I mean it it was yeah it was the the most interesting cyc cross we’ve seen so far because you know Vanderpool

Was first of all he was in the back because of a bad start or something he happened in the start and then we have vanard who was on an amazing level compared to all the other cyclocross races he’s done um so it was yeah and finally you know for for our listeners

Or or viewers uh W vanard took the victory so first time in 11 races that matu fpol didn’t win his dad by the way his bad by his dad by the way I spoke to I I was spent some time with him at the at the cyc cross in Belgium in G

And and he said you know he’s he’s he’s very strong he says without any incident or sickness or bad luck I see him capable of winning all 14 races it’s not going to win all 14 but today you know he crashed so uh he was super I I’ll add

To this just because I’m such a car fanatic showing up to your race in a Lamborghini that’s so pimp vanderp he has a sponsorship I think with lamb yeah he he rolls up to races in his own car like that’s so badass know when we went when we went to

Belgium to the race my son his biggest his his goal was not pictures with the rer he had those last year last year he had this picture taken with vpol with vanard and Pitcock so he had that already check his goal was have a picture next to vp’s

Lamborghini since that day he came with a golden Lamborghini he had he had his picture taken so that was really cool that’s very cool what’s unique about this cross race is it’s they they basically do it right where the training camps are so they can get the best

Riders they make it convenient for them this will this was the World Championships you know not not technically not on paper but we won’t see these guys racing together again for the rest of the year I think vanderpool’s finishing off the season he’s probably going to win Worlds but I

I think van Art’s done and I don’t think we’ll see pitcock either they’re focusing on the road so this was really our only chance to see these guys pumping at full strength against each other yeah but you know it’s you could say Okay I I kind of not I don’t agree

Completely with that Spencer not it’s not the World Champ assist because the course is not but wasn’t the worlds just like this last year uh it was like that fast course two years ago yeah yeah but this was I mean today’s SC this this this course in Benidorm Spencer I mean I

Was so impressed I mean these guys go so fast that they kind of fly out of the corners they they they are pushed out of the corners because of the speed I mean this is not cyclocross I mean I mean first of all they have too much power I

Mean if you see those attacks on those uphill drags it’s it was crazy um but uh but yeah I mean you’re you’re right it’s it it was probably the only time we saw the three of them at their full power against each other uh but the course

Didn’t really uh you know give enough uh to you know it was it was tactical it was fast you know it was not a real cyclop Ross uh best guy won the best guy won the best guy won so well you know not to detract anything from Vanderpool

He for this incredible cross season but is it safe to say that Pitcock and Van art had different objectives for this season compared to years past yeah yeah yeah for sure I mean vanard has straight away said he doesn’t do the worlds he wants to you know compromise his you

Know like on put it on a low level his cross season because he really wants to do something different than Focus completely his two big goals is Flanders and rube you know and and I think that’s ultimately what vanard is you know he’s already has such a palares that you know

He will be applauded or criticized for having one one of boat or never having one you know if in Belgium for example they’re going to say oh vard great but you know what he’s not that good because he didn’t win Flanders Oru you know that’s that’s unfortunately that’s the

Pressure this guy has to deal with you know when he has to win like three or four of them you know because if he wins one if he wins each one time yeah you know you know that’s not as good as T I don’t know if he’s that good but the the irony

Of this whole I got to keep stop saying I got to stop saying irony I’ve used it 15 times already in this podcast but last year van art came in so hot to the cyc Cross season won everything faded around this time last year I kind of

Wonder if we’re seeing the same thing with Vanderpool he was unbelievable through the first you know as you say 10 10 11 races and then are we seeing I mean I actually it’s unclear to me who could even beat him if pitock and Van aren’t racing so maybe he’ll win out

Anyway yeah he will win the rest of them yeah yeah for there’s no point well you know today vot was was up there but it’s it’s not the standard of a cyc cross now we’re going to go back to the real cyc cross races The World Championships may

Be completely different it’s in check Czech Republic it could be in the snow or at least it will be frozen uh which is you know different than today on the Today is basically a a criterium on the in the dust you know the the the cyc cross in I mean if you

Would look at the speeds it’s I I haven’t seen the average speed but it was crazy how fast they were going it’s probably why they both vanderpol and vanart crashed probably because they’re going so fast through those Corners did you hear the story about the guy who got

Second how did you say his name i’ I’m in no way in no world could I say this man’s name just look Michel V note so he flew I guess he flew in he he raced yester he raced yesterday he won yesterday in Belgium and he flew at 6:00

A.m. so he must have gotten up at like 4 in the morning and then got second almost won cuz he almost caught vanart after he crashed at the very end so I guess he would be the only Challenger the only realistic Challenger to Van Vanderpool the rest of the

Year well yeah yeah this no it’s not going to challenge him in a in a hard cycle across no no I’m not worried about sleep 8: p.m. or 8 worried about on the pool he looked strong today was just a course where you couldn’t make the difference you know the speed were too

High I mean if you see how close everybody else was also you know you have and then you have a guy like for example this this the French Champion clemon Vini who is nowhere in the real cyc cross races he was up there until

Half a l to go so this is the most Belgian opinion ever not a real cyclocross race there wasn’t five inches of mud on the course hey great show guys thank you Johan and Spencer uh only you two could spend an hour on the tour down under and make it

Entertaining and I got to commend you guys for for saying visma Lisa bike and not bike it’s gonna take a while but it is yeah but impressive we uh well we’ll be back together with with the whole crew Lance and George as well for our upand Comer show this has become a very

Very popular show uh Johan gives us as upand Comer picks the names to look for in the future and has been so spoton with that it it made for a much more entertaining season for me personally last year Watching for these names after Johan identified them so that’ll be our

Next get together uh and the UAE tour is right around the corner so Johan Spencer thank you very much okay thanks thanks for having Me