Today’s episode of Practical Perspectives, A Transport Planner’s Guide: I sit down with Transport Planning Director Matthew Last, Transport Planning director of employee owned company Ardent Consulting Engineers.
We discuss how important it is to always be asking questions, knowing your audience, understanding why collaborative working is key, dealing with frustrations and stories form the world of Development planning.
Thanks to Matthew and @ardentconsultingengineers7703
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This episode is brought to you by padaris empowering transport planners everywhere tipodaris.com forward slash podcast for details today’s podcast guest experience begins in April 1990 as a student site engineer with Balfour Beatty in Dartford sounds like some widening experience the n25 down there to me then on to Sir Owen
Williams and partners of course known for the original Wembley Stadium and of course Gravity Hill or Spaghetti Junction as we know it then absorbed in the quiet baby of course back in 2006. um over the two years at Birmingham city council your first job as a graduate engineer takes your career to 1994
Followed by how great Fox then a transport planner SBA in 1998 a principal consultant role follows Nixa Jacobs up to March 2004 um a shortstin to Buchanan’s until August 2005 when you then joined and helped grow Ardent Consulting Engineers uh grow some 18 odd years ago at what
Level was that method was that principle it actually joined us as a technical director before joining the board a couple years later technically apologize and of course currently shortlisted the nce SLE consulting firm the Year and best place to work uh award for an SME consulting firm I don’t normally plug firms here
But credit Rich due and best of luck with those uh Awards um uh snooker and mandolin player Matthew last uh transport director art and consultant Engineers welcome to the show uh what what have I missed that’s a very good synopsis there really uh uh yeah so an interesting uh yeah
Interesting background uh in my career as you started out as you say yes sir uh uh site on the uh the 8082 well the uh the Dartford Bridge Q2 Bridge was being built um because I did I did a thin sandwich degree and that was a first placement
And the second one with uh Williams as you mentioned working on the Sheffield Super Truck and actually designed a retaining wall when I was a still a student that actually got built and it’s still fantastic as far as I’m aware we did something right then I joined uh Birmingham city
Councils on a graduate training scheme uh which is good because I’ve got exposure to um you know started off in drainage doing a doing drainage modeling actually rather than transport modeling but they’re still being good stead because and some new software had come out and
Uh uh sort of taught us stuff to use that was very grateful to have an opportunity 1992 they went it was a recession it was quite oblique time and there weren’t many opportunities so I was glad to uh to get something and get my teeth into it and uh yeah quite right
And some new software before long other people have been there some time were asking me questions about it um and then I moved on to doing Highway design uh Birmingham and then transport planning um the division that went right that’s my third stint there and then
After that I sort of decided that’s what I wanted to do really move away from from civil engineering into uh into transport planning that was quite a good time really because things were starting to change away from the old prediction to provide um car orientated uh emphasis
For transport into looking at access by other modes our walking cycling public transport so that was quite a timely move and then now on our seconded um uh well sorry I joined hacker Fox uh I should say in in Birmingham there with Phil Jones uh and of course of PGA Fame
And one of the uh everyone yeah I think they think you’re right that everyone does know James yes I was one of his uh his prostitutions perhaps uh that so it was a good time to to specialize in in transport planning um so I did a stint uh stint there doing
Um all sorts of things pastorology studies traffic calming accident studies uh did a review of the business parking scheme strapped upon Avon which led to an article I wrote being published in parking review I don’t know if that’s still gay it’s uh recommended recommended read uh I’ve still got the
Article uh and then I got seconded uh to work on Rail Link engineering um against and on the child Tyler rail like a high speed one which is now better than that yeah to work on Stratford National station uh then enjoyed SBI as as they were and
Doing a lot of developable work many retail schemes a lot of Sainsbury’s stores being the one that’s uh next to the underground at uh loudson where we had a designer a bus from Taxi interchange there at the the station next to the store uh and then as you
Said this yes stint at uh Jacobs and then they moved to um Canon Consulting Engineers in uh 2004.3 I think was it before um and then uh and then then joined uh Benjo and Ardent um 18 years later exactly yes doing another work on maybe on residentiality London
South East uh so it’s been an interesting uh interesting Journey interesting and a very fine work history and uh would make an excellent CV by the way uh let’s go all the way back there some plus oh 30 years um I didn’t want to give you radio aware gentleman never
Tells but you did study uh civil engineering at uh Aston Union I think 1988. where did you believe your career was heading when you finished in those early 90s I mean he seems to have mapped out absolutely fine but did you had an eye did you Did you sort of know back then
Where you were where you were heading oh no I no I had no plan at all really uh at that time um I had been interested in uh sort of Highways uh High desire I probably thought that’s probably where it would go that was probably my main interest in
Civil engineering I was less interested uh in the uh the traditional civil engineering subjects like structures and geotechs and fluids and more into them the more peripheral subjects like um environmental impact um the uh the planning process uh that that was more my interest and and I did
A final year option in um uh highways and traffic engineering and transport modeling um so I was quite interested in that but I didn’t didn’t really know about transport planning as an option back then and obviously I did uh uh I didn’t anyway I graduate trains game which gave
Me exposure to various different areas and uh it sort of fed into transfer playing as many people do I think we’ll certainly do that then um I’m not sure when transport planning kind of separated it wasn’t transport planning really kind of Under the Umbrella of civil engineering uh let’s
Call it back in the day and uh but was it about 15 20 years ago as early as that it kind of um it split away and became its own sector I’m guessing due to the development growth in the UK it was probably about that sort of time I would
Guess about about 30 years ago when there was earlier there was a change in the emphasis moving away from um just being very car dominated and Catering for restricted Flows at uh um in some in some future year during the weekday peak hours and looking really more a different approach and realizing we
Couldn’t build our way out and and you know keep whitening roads and demolishing huge numbers of houses to be a different different approach so I think that’s probably what when it came about and it was as you said he originally a sort of subset of civil engineering and after that it probably
Became broader and had a different different people without from different backgrounds not civil engineering from uh from more geography and other another Specialists subjects a bit more a bit more of a um varied than have been the case in the past it was very much engineering dominated and very much
About cars and rates were you ambitious then when you left a university kind of full of determination to change the world did you see things kind of different what what was your vision as you as you as you left I don’t I don’t think I really had any
Sort of vision then I just wanted to sort of apply myself and and learn and um specify my niche as well um at the time obviously that you don’t know what what your Niche is because you you don’t know what the options are out there yet uh so yeah I think that was
One I would like to have a job in in the early 90s when there was a recession and I was supposed to show what I could do and get my head down and uh apply myself and uh and learn the tools of the trade and of Master what I did
Um I certainly had no grand plan uh when the left University is where I wanted to go and they I didn’t suddenly well I don’t think at that time it would have been transfer planning because it didn’t there’s something I knew about no but what what was the red influence or
Who was the influence back in the days was it a a a teacher or a a mentor digital mother or father study engineering is it in the family at all I mean why civil engineering at all yeah in terms of family when uh my my father was a rower signalman uh working
Um super boxes on the uh the East Coast Mainline out at King’s cross and at the time um this is the 1970s I was talking about 1980s there was a lot of improvement Works going on back then uh to increase line speeds and increase capacity and so it was obviously super
Engineering work going on in that I was aware of through through his work um so I suppose that that was part of it um my material grandfather was um a founder of a building firm that still gained today it’s uh which outside Ipswich and uh and the school I was
Always interested in math and physics and geography so I suppose um that sort of engineering and probably civil engineering was probably illogical um uh to study and well I said my younger brother was actually uh his electronic engineering and he now works for uh for Rolls-Royce um doing aircraft
Engines uh so the so there’s a sort of a link there I suppose as well it runs in the family clearly doesn’t it yeah runs in the family in a different way yes but there were probably some sort of family uh uh link there thank you some Gene
That’s been passed down Matthew I’m a huge believer that success leaves Clues people who succeed like yourself at the highest level are doing something different than everyone else in fact the purpose of this podcast as the intro States the podcast bring you real world insights and valuable wisdom from people
Like will you so let me use you ease you and gently with the current view of development planning is it all still making sense out of there give us an Insight or an idea of a few biggest frustrations daily and how will you deal with them as well as Ardent as a company
It’s sort of in the world of development plan in which we operate in is the length of time it takes to get anything to be approved with any modest schemes partly because of under-resourced local authorities and also there’s an awful lot of local opposition um any anything that generates any more
Traffic was perceived to generate any more traffic and this often massively overstated that local residents will say every household will have at least two cars and they will all leave home simultaneously eight o’clock all of them which is in nonsense but that’s what people seem to think so you you do get
This uh yeah sustained opposition and that that that makes things difficult and obviously it’s very topical at the moment with things like um in London with you lesbian expanded and the uh traffic neighborhoods um so you can see that traffic’s still a very emotive issue and uh so that that
Always seems to in any planning application traffic and highways is always one of one of the one of the big issues that is always contentious and people always once up the event their frustrations about all existing problems and that it all it gets very very political and it slows everything down
Um but and when we do have some clients um one that’s uh that does believe in extensive Community engagement finding out what problems are in the local community and trying to offer Solutions might have a scheme which we worked on a few years ago which is being built out
Now it’s well Advanced and selling very well I understand houses um were they um spoke to a local school because they have the opportunity to providing a new drop-off car park at the at the rear of the school within their development um which is then used to think about
Community Center at the weekends and put the school drop off during term time just to get cars off the main road because it was a safety issue and it was uh it wasn’t congestion came up with that idea was that yeah all right I was actually the client who
Came up with that I thought it was before my involvement on the project but uh it’s something we we took and developed and we had to obviously allowed for the uh uh the reallocation of the the school traffic to make sure that those capacity to accommodate it at those times um
That just shows that that can be the key actually to um to listen to the listen to the locals and try and offer them something um don’t or not seen to offer anything and uh but sometimes that that can that can be the key to to getting a scheme
Across the line is to find what an existing problem is and try and do something to to solve it gives you some brownie points Matthew what’s one thing that perhaps any lesser experienced transport planner or maybe a graduate or a junior needs to understand quickly or adapt to to excel
Within transport or development planning you obviously need to um the key guide always say is don’t stop asking questions particularly when you’re starting out you’re not gonna know everything I don’t expect to know anything people who don’t ask any questions worryingly because I think do you really understand or are you just
Saying you do because you don’t want to don’t want me to think well you don’t know everything but I don’t expect you to um there’s there’s a there’s obviously lots of Master you need to be uh to get up to date or up to speed quite quickly with various sort of Standards
Policy technical guidance Etc and that there’s quite there’s quite a lot to master there’s a lot to think about um in in transport playing in terms of all the things if you’re looking at for example a new a new Housing Development you’ve got to make sure that it it
Comprises the standard requirements if it’s going to be docked by the local Authority you’ve got to make sure that that you’re catering for vehicles you’re catering for or pedestrians a UK um if you’ve got enough parking cycle parking car parking provision and things like fire access servicing all of that so
There’s a lot to get your head around um and and the function of that does take time because it’s probably it’s probably quite overworked I can’t remember myself but it must be quite overwhelming when when you first come out and there’s all these things to try and take on board
Um but it is easy now a lot easier than when I started out to find things out because you’ve got Google and things like that you can you can look up information and uh and see maybe what others have done elsewhere or sometimes just a quick Google search can
Can yield the answer to a problem with what you need to do somewhere oh that’s the art that’s what you’ve got to do right okay this episode of practical perspectives is brought to you by padaris planning engineering and stakeholder engagement seamlessly integrated into the cloud to discover how badaris is helping the
Likes of Arab wsp and sistra plan smarter faster and more collaboratively head over to badaris.com forward slash podcast today and Matthew technical skills aside how do you recognize a strong transport planner maybe a committee or local Authority stakeholder meeting or an employee what what are the signals that stand out for you
Well as I said earlier you you’ve obviously you’ve got to know your stuff you’ve got to know the technical standards and the guidance as to what’s required what you need to do in order to comply but you need to be able to convey that in layman’s terms and particularly
If you if you’re a pairing committee for example as you mentioned because committee members are not they’re not uh they’re not transport planners they’re laymen and if you’re a public consultation events um engaging with the local community or if you’re giving evidence public inquiry or
A hearing you need to be able to convey the technical terminology in in a manner that they can understand and there’s obviously talking about 80 percentile speeds um or people won’t know what 80 percentile means so you’re gonna let me explain that in in a way they can
Understand so for me that’s that is keeping her to communicate with to a different audience and to know your audience as well um not just talking and jargon but being able to to conversely explain it to to the link sure um Matthew hugely experienced you employ direct and manage a lot of people
Um can you maybe share some of the softer skills that I should be learning right now in transport planning and what other skill sets do you look for uh when hiring or maybe you just want to see developed but certainly uh there’s a need to be able to
Um to communicate well and that’s that’s very important to be able to convey ideas and make yourself understood better listen to other people and their ideas and to be able to share information um that that’s very important uh I think as well that’s a it’s a yeah it’s a very
Important soft skill to be able to be able to do that to listen and think think things through don’t be afraid to um collaborate with others and ask because you know a group of people can sometimes work together something we used to do in the early days of Arden
Certainly when we were not fewer of us we used to uh four or five of us would sit around and and chat things through and try and come up with a solution by yeah drawing things out on the plan and then sort of knock it into shape and suddenly a sort
Of a solution would emerge and through through collaboratively working and different people bringing different ideas and it’s well we did this on this scheme here we did this and all that could work and um and that’s that’s always something I doubt like sitting in silos and just um
Yeah keep your knowledge to yourself I like people to share it and uh and bring their past experiences um to solve new problems and work with others how often do you meet frustration or even failure and what have you learned from those experiences and what can we learn from you
Uh I have to say frustration is is quite a free company to sort of make time it can take uh things to get uh resolved and um to get to get responses and things failure uh less less frequent uh there haven’t been many schemes I’ve worked on where we’ve failed to get some
To get a permission in the end to get it across the line um I mean there was one I um we had a very constrained site we worked on in um it was in in London and client was insistent that uh they wanted to serve
Uh it was a retail scheme they wanted it serviced by a full-size Arctic uh going down this very fairly narrow residential streets which were parked cars at both sides and arranged a demo run with people that representative from the council there um of course it’s been going for some
Time trying to get this solution and that did manage to get this full-size Arctic through but it was pretty tight and it was yeah it was it said they sent their best driver and he struggled and but he did it but he you know hit it really slowly and after that collector
Said I’m yeah I I’m pursue this anymore because I just thought I’m not 100 convincible we’ll get this uh across the line we may have done we may have had to go through uh to appeal to do it but I’ll never know but it’s a little bit frustrating that’s still I still
Remember that uh some years later now that that’s That Got Away that didn’t didn’t get a solution there um yeah and how does that work then do you when you have other uh possible sites like that are you always kind of you know recalling your sort of um
20 plus years history and transport planning are you always kind of cross-referring to other schemes and jobs um where they’re pardon or or before do you always kind of you Benchmark those I think you’re quite yeah quite often you you’re aware of um what was somewhere else I think well that well we
Might better get that that a similar approach here at work done that more than one occasion where uh it you apply a previous solution and different and different authorities in different parts of countries like different things in what what one Authority will allow another one might not so yeah you you
Know they won’t like they went like that hey you can’t do that you’ve got to do something else um so I mean that that’s the benefit I suppose if I can be around the world and uh uh words in various different places and a number of games over the years is
That you do that out and that’s sort of a bit of a sixth sense sometimes as to what the what probably what the solution is that will get you the permission that you want yeah that’s my old Mentor says there’s no shortcutting experience uh which I think is um is crucial
Um Matthew I’m going to put you I’m going to put you under a bit of I’m going to put you under a bit of pressure um here and ask you to share um you know maybe a a mistake or a huge challenge that you had to overcome if you’re happy to share
One or a bit one with us um and perhaps what have you learned from from one or two of those in your in your own career it was it was it was more a challenge than a mistake uh it’s as a sight we worked on it was actually pretty much
The start of Ireland as one of the very first sites where we worked on it took us about five years to get it to to get it results that that gives you an idea of uh it was quite painful but it was uh it was a sight on the edge of a village
And it had been allocated for development so it was a Development Corporation outside and they delegated it the the local Council which sort of the highway Authority weren’t very keen on it um at all really to put it mildly and we had a number of challenges in getting an access solution we couldn’t
Access it from the existing and generics that road to too narrow and um parked out a little um constraints on land ownership so we’re gonna have to access it from from the bypass and it was a single carriageway bypass and something of a white elephant because itself been
Bypassed by a new new trunk road so it wasn’t particularly um heavily trafficked uh there was a Footbridge that man through the middle of the site which crossed the bypass and grows up from ground level across the bypass and went back down again there was a a left-in left done junction uh on
The bypass serving a Leisure Center how much the footage also connected up to and it ran about to either end of this of the bypass so in order to get either two or from the Leisure Center you’d have to go past the junction and U-turn and uh and uh turn left
Um you’re doing or out so um and so we looked at various options for providing access um it could be getting extra Army off one of the roundabouts at one end um because it was quite large there was a potential scope to do that um instinctively it was my view that the
The obvious solution was to put in there and that grade Junction with Crossing facilities we lived the third bridge and then it made it much easier to say well the one access point to the site um yeah probably a signal Junction with um with that grave digestion and cycle
Crossing facilities that felt to me to be the obvious solution but uh the highway officer wasn’t wasn’t very keen on on that um to be fair he did work with this accountant solution and we would put that out on site and uh we drove around and he uh
Uh he said well we’ll drive up down the bypass and have a look and uh in his car and we’re so first of all he was trying to visualize what’s in an extra arm off the roundabout might look like and just sort of mock turns into it otherwise we went around the roundabout
And then driving along the bypass he said Oh I thought I’d just turn right here into the into the Leisure Center which one is supposed to turn left into so I’m supposed to have gone the turns and come back and he was just blasting in his Gravely mirror and said oh hang
On I’m not sure if that’s a taxi behind or a police car he did work with us and we looked at so many different options over you know having two separate Junctions either side of the uh of the Footbridge um and in the end what we came up with was keeping Footbridge
Um because politically even though there were happiness of kids throwing bricks cars off the bridge and I think politically there was uh will the locals wanted to stay so we retained it within our design we had we had a roundabout we had a a toucan Crossing for pedestrians and cyclists as
Well off the bypass and then we threaded a road where the um the second carriageway that bypass would have gone so whether it was under the Footbridge the urban designers wanted to reduce the size of the of the roundabout so rather than being a large round about 16 ones
It was made to a smaller compact one so there was some compromise there um so that was the solution but it it took a long time to get there the client got very frustrated and just we’re going around in circles and he can’t get access is ridiculous and it was yeah it
Was pretty tough you know coming under quite a lot of pressure the the plank and so on on job stood up for us he was very very good and certainly no no no don’t worry about Ace yeah it’ll be thought oh well he will get there and uh
And would and we did in the end um but just just to confirm I think that my uh my original solution was probably the right one in terms of getting rid of the bridge soon after we got off finally got our permission after five years uh and over Heights vehicle struck the
Footbridge and damaged it and it had to be closed and and uh pay it eventually uh at some considerable cost and the council then said well actually we’d Now call let’s get rid of the Fruitridge so maybe you could go back and replan your development uh without the Footbridge uh
I mean that no we’re not doing that sorry you had to charge um but to me that’s sort of a Vindicated that I was right and that was that was the correct solution really uh is the Footbridge still there I believe it is still there intact but
There is a nice new um toucan Crossing as well so you can use that instead if you prefer but it just simply logical solution to get rid of the U-turn movement having all movements Junction serving the Leisure Center uh reducing the u-telling at the roundabouts providing a better Crossing facility
Um and getting rid of it uh it might say 60s really ugly Footbridge um but it’s to when I’m still there but but that that was quite challenging because you were thinking are we actually going to get this Salon this is this is this is tough so that was that
That still stands out now as uh as one of the tougher the tougher assignments one of the harder ones yeah yeah hey what about some what about some lesser-known regulations or policy considerations that may significantly impact transport planning uh and Highway design maybe share with us
Um I’m gonna ask for two or three things if I can uh not everyone in your position might know or be aware of but maybe they should be if they’re an experienced transport planner what do you got well there’s various little nuggets um he’s quite nerdy I’m afraid but I mean
There’s what for example um a signal Junction you need to have a separately signaled right term um so it just runs on its own with the opposing head flow stopped where speeds are 85 percentile speed so 45 miles an hour or that’s something that I think
Some people don’t seem to know um so that that’s on safety grounds obviously uh and on on the subject of speeds a couple years ago the um got the guidance for undertaking speed surveys changed now rather more onerous and rather than taking a sample of a total of 200
Vehicles and taking the 80 percentile from that you now have to take 200 on each day and take the highest 85 a day and then in the past you would use wet weather speeds which are deemed to be two and a half miles two and a half
Miles an hour far slower than dry speeds on single casual roads you now have to take those uh the the faster dry speeds and apply wet weather deceleration rates rather than using wet weather speeds as you did in the past so it’s got it’s got
To be trickier there uh to to um promote for sort of accesses and visibility requirements and uh this seems do seem to be a few people out there still don’t know about this thing that’s been out do you still pick them up do you pick them up from time to time
With your staff do you kind of appear over their shoulder and not that’s wrong oh okay I think well I think I’ve drummed that into them now because it’s one of the possibility displays and all that sort of things topics actually and that whether you should use manual streets or design
Money for roads and bridges that acceleration relates to reaction times that’s a one of my favorite topics of consideration uh and another another one actually is um it’s a census data for um car ownership and um I did a I did a Pub well I didn’t actually have to do it
Yet but it was a Escape which had been refused um while planning on other grounds and one of them was inadequate car parking and the consultant had worked on it originally I declined to defend it said well you can’t win this this there’s no
I’m not going to do it um so the client was a bit desperate and uh someone recommended us to him and he came to us and I said well I think we might be able to formulate a case here using census data for the local area car ownership by
Dwelling type tenure and size and so um looking at whether it’s a house or a flat and looking at whether it’s um uh privately owned or owner occupied or rented and whether it’s uh and then the size of the dwelling whether by the number of rooms or bedrooms uh and you
Yeah as you as you might expect houses tend to have higher car ownership than Flats um owner occupied tends to be higher than rented and Carnage it tends to increase as the size of the dwelling of course increases by using that data to formulate an argument that demonstrated
That Anthem did have enough parking provision and uh so from this unlimited appeal the week before the inquiry the the council caped in and and withdrew that reason so uh yeah very clear favorite they finally um that’s very good hey give us some words of wisdom or encouragement
Um for our listeners if you can before I let you go uh that maybe want to take action or Advance their career or rise through the ranks um to maybe sit where you’re sitting one day is there anything you could leave them with uh before we let you go
You have to be pretty tenacious um you’ve got to uh from Master your craft I think through experience and hard graft I’m afraid they didn’t even quite a lot of work and applying yourself and in terms of you you’ve got any stuff and you’ve got
And the only way to do to to learn to know your stuff is to do the job I think for quite some time and just to gain that experience yeah and it does take a while just to get yourself fully up to speed with it with everything that you
Need to know I still don’t know everything and I never will know everything but uh you’ve got to do that and collaboration I think is important I think it’s important to work with a mix of people um from a sort of colleague of mine um I
Said that uh to me what I remember once at that different people bring different things to the table and I think you need to draw upon that and different different personality types um different different skill sets approaches um that just surround yourself with the same sort of person similar to you like
People that you may not get on with that well but they’ll they’ll approach in a different way and you can learn from that I’d never be afraid to hire us people I’ll be better than you because again you can you can learn a lot it might come a point where you’ll have to
Be out of your depth in a certain area anybody someone else who’s really good at a particular a particular skill that where you’re lacking so don’t be threatened by that um draw upon that and use that to help you yeah I really like that what what’s next for Matthew last
Another 18 20 years at pardon uh well we became an employee owned uh company a couple years ago so um then that’s what the start of this transition we’ve got 100 staff now um so we’re um something of a transition to it very much into a medium-sized
Company now rather than a small company and we’re starting to think about succession planning and passing it on to the next Generation so uh and I’m more involved now with the running of the company than the technical work still do some technical work I still intend to
Carry on doing that for a while um but we’re starting to think now about passing it over to the next Generation to look after Ireland and to carry on for the for a lot longer than another 18 years I hope it’s still having some evolvement in in
The short term certainly in short to medium terms I should still be around and I should still be here for a long Year Matthew thank you very much for your time I really appreciate you coming and joining us today um thank you once again thank you Scott very enjoyable
Thanks for listening today’s episode of practical perspectives has been proudly supported by padaris the trusted toolkit empowering transport planners everywhere to plan faster smarter and more collaboratively experience the future of Transport planning today at pagdaris.com forward slash podcast