The “be a mover talk” with Jörg Howe is a talk format in which guests are interviewed by Jörg Howe, Head of Global Communications & External Affairs at Daimler Truck, on how to positively impact the world.
What about the new ELCH project? How to increase the reach of electrified coaches, while at the same time minimizing their energy consumption? How and why will life-cycle analysis affect buyers decisions? In this episode, Jörg Howe and Martin Wehrle discuss this and many more questions about decarbonized long distance transport.
Daimler Truck is the world’s leading manufacturer of commercial vehicles. The brand portfolio of Daimler Truck includes Mercedes-Benz Trucks & Buses, Freightliner, Western Star, Thomas Built Buses, Fuso, Bharat Benz, Setra and Rizon. Find Jörg Howe on Twitter: https://twitter.com/joerg_howe Enjoy!
Hello and welcome to our new episode of the “Be A Mover” talk. You will probably be familiar with our “Be a mover” talks by now, a conversation with people, who make a difference, have something to say, and who also have a few new ideas.
As you can see, there is something going on here today. Martin Wehrle is with me. Martin Wehrle is overseeing a very interesting project. Namely ELCH. So, now we’re thinking “Goodness, is this about the A-Class moose test again? It hasn’t flipped again, has it? No, that’s not it Martin, is it?
No, that’s not it at all. ELCH stands for Electrified Coach. It’s an electrified touring coach and is a publicly funded project. The aim is to create the basis for what will essentially be the drivetrain for future electric touring coaches. Okay, now electric vehicles are limited
In terms of volume, that is, the distance you can actually travel with an electric drive. Does it actually make sense to install an electric drive in a bus, if you don’t have a route cycle where you can calculate accurately when you will get back to the charging station? That is the exact challenge
That we are facing when it comes to electric mobility. Unlike with the city bus, I would say the question of transition is much more difficult with the touring coach because we have a much wider range of applications. Just think about day trips, perhaps 50 or 100 kilometers. That’s clear.
Then there are the traditional, let’s call them, tourism applications. Or even really challenging applications, for example long-distance routes, where we are talking about trips of up to 1500 kilometers. And you’ve already mentioned charging using public power supply equipment, which is not straightforward. And in the end, it’s also about using this
Funding project to learn and analyze what we can actually achieve for day trips across this broad spectrum? And you have to see which drivetrain is also well-suited for touring coaches. There will be a niche. The aim is to find out which drivetrain and components we need for this.
Now we are in a touring coach here. We are sitting in a wonderful Setra touring coach, which is perfect for long journeys, but which is currently still a conventionally powered vehicle. What do you have to create and achieve so that you can convert a bus like this
Into a locally CO2-neutral, electrically powered bus? I think it is important to say that it is still a touring coach because a touring coach has the task of transporting people as well as luggage over long distances. That is why you can’t just say
I’m going to fill the vehicle with lots of batteries. You could do that, but then you wouldn’t have any space for luggage. And that’s why you really have to look closely at how to deal with this complex problem. So how can we solve the problem?
How many batteries do we need and what recharging options do we have? You have to think about what suits you best. The project started two years ago, if I remember correctly. How far have you come in the meantime? The project started a year ago.
We started preparing the project, so to speak, two years ago. Yes, when I think about it, it all started in the summer of 2021, when the funding round was published, entitled Competition for electrified heavy-duty and passenger transport. And it was really a competition of innovative ideas
Because we definitely had to go through different stages before we could make a start a year ago. So, in the end, that was the first hurdle we had to overcome. We had to develop a cool concept in that short space of time. We were also able
To get the support of four institutes at three universities with each institution contributing with its specific area of competence. And then within a very short time with a small, motivated team working on the vehicle alongside our partners we were able to
Develop this concept and then submit it to the funding body. So what happens next? So we have a small team of people working with us on the vehicle and with the universities on the other hand, across three universities, right? That’s right, three universities. One of them is the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology.
They have such competence in evaluating extensive data, they are using their expertise in the initial phases, where we want to work with Flixbus, who are also partnering with us, to analyze actual vehicles in operation. We will use these real vehicles to determine the requirements for electric touring coaches.
This is an important input for the simulation. And the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology will also be involved in the development of an innovative or intelligent operation strategy later on. The second university is the RPTU in Kaiserslautern. There are two institutes there, one for aerodynamics
And one for lightweight construction. We want to analyze measures together to reduce energy consumption of the overall vehicle even further whether by means of aerodynamics or lightweight construction to compensate for the battery weight. Okay. And the third university? The third university is the University of Mannheim which is known for economics.
The University of Mannheim will evaluate the project from the perspective of profitability of the operator. This is also very important for us as our customers must be able to earn money every day, so that’s an important perspective. Isn’t it like herding cats – working with three universities
As well as partners in industry and then our own team who are not necessarily always of the same opinion? It is quite a challenge. But it’s incredibly fun and fulfilling when you see that this collaborative work produces something better, something bigger than if everyone worked for themselves
And where each partner can learn from each other. And I’m always very happy if that works for a funding project like this, making it really come to life, creating a community. You mentioned the funding body a few times earlier, that’s a very abstract term. Who is the funding body? In our case,
It’s the Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Climate Protection. The way funding works is that there is always funding available where there is a desire to achieve politically stated goals. Maybe we have an example close to home: perhaps you are familiar with this topic, the promotion of wallboxes at home.
In our case, on the topic of funding it’s basically about decarbonization in long-haul passenger transport. And it’s also about the German industry, as well as the German research environment continuing to be competitive and producing innovative projects and products. How long do you think will it take before this project is ready for
Series production? That you can say hey, we have the electrified vehicle for long distances, the touring coach if you will. How long will it take? So the project is set up for four years, so it will end mid-2026 and the objective is to have created the basis for the drivetrain by then.
Of course, this will not be a series-ready drivetrain, it will still require further development after this. Then we also need the vehicle the structure where it is installed, the basic body. And we at Daimler Buses are saying yes, by the end of 2030 we want to electrify our touring coaches
Or we want to have an electrified touring coach. So to implement such a project internally within the Group, you always need in principle, a manager, a sponsor or whatever you call it. Who is the contact person for your team?
In this case it is Mrs. Gritt-Ahrens ,because she is the head of Development for touring coaches as a whole. Yes, and I guess that the bus boss himself occasionally checks in to see how it’s going. Of course, he is naturally involved and updated regularly.
That’s how it should be. That’s what Till Oberwörder is like. You mentioned earlier that Flixbus is a partner. They will be the ones who are responsible for testing load and material in day-to-day operation. How is that being addressed? What does that involve? Yes, so Flixbus is of course also interested
In electric touring coaches and Flixbus is playing a large part in the project in two areas. First of all, in the initial phases, when we were analyzing deployments. And secondly, once a concept has been developed or let’s say prototype drivetrains have been created which then need to be demonstrated
In the vehicle, Flixbus will work with us to help carry out twin tests etc. They will work on this integration into the operational concept, to test suitability and provide additional valuable information for further development. Okay, so now you need a lot of time to develop such a project.
Do you always want to continue to be part of this project, or would you like to do something different at some point? I’m already doing something else. I have handed over coordination of this project and I’ve also focused more on the issue of life cycle assessment.
What do we need to consider for the life cycle assessment for this type of bus and touring coach or for buses in local public transport. How do you assess the balance? Life cycle assessment generally involves the analysis of the potential environmental impact of our products from cradle to grave, i.e. from production
Through to use and subsequent recycling. Yes, and we do that in a simulation. Okay. Do you compare this with real-time data? We have a number of eCitaro buses that are already running. Is it possible to draw conclusions from this or is it much too early?
In reality, you probably mean the bill of materials. Yes, because to create a life cycle assessment, I need to know what’s actually inside the vehicle. That means I have to have the bill of materials and you can imagine a vehicle like this consists of thousands of parts, some 20,000 actually.
And I need to know what kind of parts they are what material are they made of and what do they weigh? And then I can basically make a statement about the potential greenhouse effect. It seems to me from what we see in the press that an increasing number of municipal transport companies
Are transitioning to electric buses, also very long buses. In other words, articulated buses. But also slightly smaller buses. Standard buses, so to speak. In other words, the trend is towards electric buses, or am I wrong? The trend is definitely there, I see it and I also see the,
Let me put it this way, the trend that customers also want more and more information on data relevant to the environment from these vehicles. In the USA, they even have the yellow school buses now by Thomas Built Buses under the brand name Jouley. This also works because the counties like to have local,
Emission-free buses to transport their students. And I see that it’s relatively easy for transport companies to order 20 buses – electric buses. But if that increases exponentially now, do we even have the options for charging the buses? Experience says yes – I am no expert
On the subject of charging – but it does work. The cities make it work and also receive support from us in the form of eMobility Consulting. Yes. And there are also interesting or intelligent charging management options. After all, not all buses need to be charged at the same time.
But what about the infrastructure, when we go further afield? When we are driving along, there is probably hardly a charging station that you can access, right? Well, there are charging stations. You are probably aware of cars that charge with 300 kW or 150 kW? But what you are probably talking about
Is megawatt charging, the topic of Milence. And as far as I am aware, it’s only just being established. Correct. You can also see this with electric trucks. We will soon be introducing the eActros 600 which already has a relatively large range as a distribution truck. But even in this case
There is still a lack of infrastructure for proper power charging. It is indeed a problem. Could there still be drive alternatives to electric drives, locally emission-free drives? Are there any other possible alternatives? Are you looking for alternatives? Yes, as you know, as a Group
We are also looking at hydrogen in addition to electric batteries. And also one of the reasons for ELCH is to look at what proportion of these applications across the bandwidth that I’ve been talking about – short to long distances – can I cover with the electric battery alone
And what proportion can no loner run on purely electric battery power? We need other technologies, for example hydrogen. Touring coach, okay, is another project that is still in development when it comes to electric drives, your ELCH project. Now I know that for city buses we have
Been using electric drives for a long time. And you can probably already say something about the life cycle assessment of these electric city buses, how they are developing positively or in interesting ways. Absolutely. So our analyses of the life cycle assessment show that an eCitaro
Has clear advantages compared to a conventional diesel bus. It goes without saying that an eCitaro or a battery-powered bus has a higher CO2 footprint than a diesel bus at the beginning, i.e. in the production phase, due to the battery, the large battery. But within this usage phase, this changes relatively quickly.
Break-even point between a diesel bus and a battery bus is even within 1 to 2 years of operation. And from then on, a battery bus is much more advantageous from an environmental perspective, in terms of CO2 for example, than a diesel. Is consideration being given to recycling concepts for these buses?
After all, that’s also part of the equation when it comes to batteries. I did something about recycling at Smart years ago and there was practically only thermal recycling, as the new terminology refers to it. To what extent are we still at the beginning when it comes to recycling these concepts?
Before recycling, I would still try to see if you could repair something or continue using it. And on the subject of the battery-powered bus, we can also take into consideration the second life of the battery, whereby the battery can be used as a stationary battery once it has served its time
As a regular battery. Okay. But the topic of recycling, which you mentioned, something that applies later along the line, that’s of course also a very important point which we also want to work on, we want to become even better. Do you think the bus
As such will continue to have a future regardless of the drive? In addition to cars, railways, airplanes? Yes, so first of all, if you look at buses, I also need a long-distance solution, I would say, as a cheap means of transport alongside the alternatives you have highlighted.
Secondly, I also believe that the city bus certainly has a great future ahead of it, especially the battery-powered city bus. Martin, you spoke about sustainability. What does sustainability mean to you personally? That’s a relatively vague term. Sustainability is a very broad term, and at the moment
CO2 footprint or global warming are attracting media attention. But sustainability also includes other environmentally relevant topics such as recycling, reuse or the use of secondary materials, but also social aspects, such as human rights or a good education for all of us. And I think that,
When we really understand the challenges we face, and that we want to master, then each of us should also have to make a personal contribution. And if you ask me now, what is my contribution? Then I would say I have switched, for exampIe, to an electric vehicle, charged by
Electricity from renewable sources and I am also socially involved with the charity Kinderhelden, helping those who have had a difficult start to school to integrate into the group and then also to enjoy a good education. That is a worthy cause. You have addressed the topic of life cycle assessment.
Why does this also pertain to buses, touring coaches, city buses? Why is this subject of life cycle assessment so important? So the topic of sustainability and, above all, the topic of sound environmental information is becoming more and more important for our customers. And we are also being asked about it.
And we are not only asked about this in individual conversations, but that is also a criterion for submitting tenders now. This means that we have to show the customer how much of a CO2 footprint our vehicle has. And then they also compare it to competitor vehicles and can use this eco performance
To influence their purchase decision. This includes practically everything from the creation of the vehicle through to operation. And including recycling. So from the beginning, I’d say the extraction of the raw materials or resources from the earth, processing, manufacturing and use, including maintenance and repair, plus then recycling.
And the great thing about buses is that there’s a framework i.e. there is a universal set of rules and regulations and I’d say it applies to our competitors. Exactly. So the decision-maker who then says “I want to buy buses” can take into consideration the life cycle assessment.
However, on this subject, from an external perspective, I would also say that a life cycle assessment is very interesting for us as a bus manufacturer to find out where our hotspots are in terms of further development for green products. Where can we improve? So it creates transparency for several stakeholders.
Right, and then the final question: How do you see your own future within the Group? Where do you want to go? I want to look more closely at sustainability and will switch to sustainability strategy and work on the issue of green products in this context.
That means thinking about how we can develop our products in the future in a more sustainable manner and how can we address the entire topic of E in ESG, i.e. coordinating everything to do with the environment for Daimler Buses. Great! I wish you all the best for the future
And I’m sure that you’ll have plenty to keep you occupied. I’m not worried about that at all. So that was our “Be a Mover” talk with Martin Wehrle who helped to kick-start the ELCH project. It is all about the electrified touring coach. We have learned that you can also work with universities.
Even as a large, traditional industrial group. And it was a very interesting conversation. Thank you very much, Martin. Thank you, Jörg. See you next time! And I’d like to say goodbye and thank you for joining us.