Doing Time: Messiaen’s Quartet for the End of Time 談時間的錘鍊︰梅湘的《時間終結四重奏》( Bilingual Subtitles 雙語字幕)

談時間的錘鍊︰梅湘的《時間終結四重奏》
6 OCT 2021 | WED | 8PM

(In English 英語主講)

This event is part of For the End of Time: 80 Years of the Messiaen Quartet
這場講座為為時間終結而作：梅湘四重奏首演80周年活動之一

The 2021/22 Rayson Huang Lecture focused on Messiaen’s ‘Quartet for the End of Time’. Composed and performed 80 years ago in one of Hitler’s prisoner-of-war camps, this work liberates music as a theological and creative act. Professor Rebecca Rischin (Ohio University) and Professor Jeremy Begbie (Duke University) know the Quartet intimately as both musicians and scholars in their respective disciplines of music and theology. They shared their perspectives on Messiaen’s Quartet in two 30-minute lectures, followed by a time of discussion and questions with Professor Daniel Chua, HKU’s Chair Professor of Music.

港大音樂系主任蔡寬量教授主持2021/22學年黃麗松講座，以梅湘的《時間終結四重奏》為題，請來兩位講者——杜克大學神學院榮譽教授貝格比（Jeremy Begbie）以及《為時間終結而作：梅湘四重奏的故事》作者、俄亥俄大學音樂學院單簧管教授莉欽（Rebecca Rischin）——從神學角度及首演的傳奇歷史反思並分享他們的見解。兩位嘉賓各自演講30分鐘，然後由蔡教授帶領討論，並設有問答環節。

Speakers:
Prof. Jeremy Begbie, Duke Divinity School, Duke University
Prof. Rebecca Rischin, School of Music, Ohio University

Moderator:
Prof. Daniel Chua, Department of Music, The University of Hong Kong

Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening 早安，午安，晚上好 Welcome to this year’s Rayson Huang lecture 歡迎來到今年的黃麗松講座 This year, the HKU Music Department turns 40 今年是香港大學音樂系成立四十周年 So we’ve officially reached middle age 所以我們正式步入中年 We decided that to celebrate our middle age 為慶祝學系踏入中年 we would actually focus on a piece that is twice as old 我們決定討論一首比音樂系年歲大一倍的樂曲

So that we feel much younger 讓我們倍感年輕 This year is the 80th anniversary of Messiaen’s Quartet for the End of Time 今年是梅湘《時間終結四重奏》八十周年 a work which, as many of you know 很多人都知道，梅湘寫這首作品時 was written during the Second World War in a prisoner of war camp 正值二次大戰，且身陷戰俘營 The late Rayson Huang 已故黃麗松教授

The former president of the University of Hong Kong 前香港大學校長 and the person who founded the music department 亦是音樂系創始人 and also the person whom this lecture is named after 更是此講座的冠名人 would be delighted, I think, at our choice 我想他會喜歡我們的選擇 because he, like many of the musicians that 因為他像很多在戰俘營

Played Messiaen’s Quartet in that prison camp 奏梅湘四重奏的樂手一樣 also had to run away during the war 要在戰時逃難 and try to escape when Japanese invaded China 他在日軍侵華時逃亡 He actually escaped to Hong Kong 逃到了香港 only to have the Japanese invade again in 1941 只是1941年，香港亦遭日軍侵佔 80 years ago, and that cut short his time 那是八十年前，這逼使他

At the University of Hong Kong 離開香港大學 He couldn’t carry very much with him 他無法攜帶太多物品 but like the clarinettist who premiered Messiaen’s Quartet 但如同首演梅湘四重奏的單簧管家 he carried his instrument with him all the time 他也無時無刻帶著自己的樂器 He carried his violin with him 他帶著他的小提琴

What you carry with you all the time in a time of war 一個人的戰時隨行物品 tells you a lot about what you love 多顯其所好 And Rayson Huang absolutely loved music 黃麗松教授必定熱愛音樂 And so it is really a great honour 能夠在這講座追念他 to remember him in this lecture 我深感榮幸

Messiaen, of course, couldn’t carry his piano with him 梅湘當然無法帶著他的鋼琴 or, for that matter, the church organ 亦無法帶著管風琴 but he did have a bag 但他有一個袋子 he carried a bag around with him during the war 在戰時隨身攜帶 And when he was put into the prison camp 當他被押到戰俘營 and stripped completely naked 給剝得一絲不掛時

The only thing that he wanted to carry was his bag 他只想要他的袋子 he would not let the guards take this bag from him 不讓守衛把袋子拿走 So the question is, what was in his bag? 那麼他的袋子裏究竟有甚麼呢？ There were two types of things in his bag 裏面有兩類東西 First, he had a collection of scores 第一，樂譜

This included pieces by Stravinsky, and Debussy 當中包括史特拉汶斯基和德布西的作品 And secondly, he had books 第二，書 books from the Bible, the Psalms, the epistles, the gospel 《聖經》、《聖詠》、使徒書信、福音書 and more significantly for this lecture 對此講座尤為重要的 he also had the last book in the New Testament: the Book of Revelation 是《新約聖經》最後一卷：《啟示錄》

So these are the two things he had in his bag 這是他袋子裏的兩種物品 He had music, and he had faith 他有音樂，有信仰 these were the two most important things for Messiaen 這是梅湘最重要的兩樣物事 And so in honour of this bag 為了向他的袋子致意 we’re going to structure the Rayson Huang lecture 是次黃麗松講座 based on these two things: 將以此二者為題——

Music and faith 音樂與信仰 We’re going to look at the historical context of the Quartet 我們將探索梅湘四重奏的歷史背景 And we’re going to think about its theological implications 思考它的神學意義 And to do this, we’ve entitled our lecture ‘Doing Time’ 為了突出主旨，我們將講座題為「時間的錘鍊」 because both the music and the theological content is all about time 因為音樂與神學都跟時間有關

It’s about time in prison, time in music, and time in the Bible 關於獄中的時間，音樂中的時間，《聖經》中的時間 And we’ve invited two speakers 今天我們請來了兩位講者 Let’s welcome them onto our webinar 歡迎他們來到我們的線上講座 Two speakers, one for each item in the bag 他們分別講述袋中其中一物 So we have Professor Rebecca Rischin from Ohio University 首先歡迎俄亥俄大學的瑞貝卡．莉欽教授

And she will be giving us a historical context for the music 她會為我們講解樂曲的歷史 Hi, Rebecca 瑞貝卡你好 Hi, thank you 你好，謝謝 Professor Jeremy Begbie, who will be giving us 傑瑞米．貝格比教授 the theological contents of the piece 則會從神學角度分析樂曲 And we’re going to begin with Rebecca 那麼我們先從瑞貝卡開始

Let’s go all the way to Ohio in the United States 大家一起來到美國俄亥俄州 And let me tell you a little bit about Rebecca 讓我先介紹一下瑞貝卡 Rebecca is an amazing person 她是個很厲害的人 She is an award-winning clarinettist 既是一位獲獎的單簧管家 And she’s also an award-winning teacher 也是一位獲獎的老師 And she’s also the chair of clarinet 她是首席單簧管

And also the professor of clarinet and the chair of the woodwind division 也是俄亥俄大學單簧管教授 at the University of Ohio 與木管樂部的主任 And even more importantly, for this particular lecture 對是次講座更重要的是 she is the author of a brilliant book, a groundbreaking book 她寫了一本很精彩的書，一部創新之作 one could say almost a definitive book 幾乎可以說是

On Messiaen’s Quartet for the End of Time 關於梅湘《時間終結四重奏》的終極之作 This has been translated into many languages, including Chinese 此書獲翻譯成多種語言，包括中文 and is currently being adapted as a screenplay 現正改編成劇本 and hopefully will become a movie. That’s quite amazing 有望拍成電影，相當厲害 You seem like a very amazing person, Rebecca 瑞貝卡你真的很厲害

It’s now over to you 接下來的時間交給你 I’m going to send my greetings to you 我先向你問好 I wish you were here in Hong Kong 我真希望你可以來香港 I’m sorry that you can’t be here 很遺憾你不能來訪 But thank you so much for waking up so early 但很感謝你如此早起 to give this lecture for us 為我們講學

Well, thank you so much, Daniel 非常感謝你蔡教授 And thank you so much to everyone at the University of Hong Kong 非常感謝香港大學的各位觀眾 Thank you so much to Jeremy too 也非常感謝傑瑞米 I’m really honoured to be here with you all today 我很榮幸今天能與大家見面 And thank you so much 非常感謝 I’m really looking forward to our… 希望我們能有一個愉快的……

For me, it’s the morning 對我來說，早上 As Daniel said 正如蔡教授所說 Olivier Messiaen’s Quartet for the End of Time 梅湘的《時間終結四重奏》 for violin, clarinet, cello and piano is one of the masterpieces 為小提琴、單簧管、大提琴、鋼琴而寫 of the chamber music repertoire of the 20th century 是二十世紀的室內樂巨作 But it’s also one of the great stories of 20th-century music 亦是二十世紀一段精彩故事

As Daniel said, it was premiered in a prisoner of war camp during WWII 正如蔡教授所說，它的首演在二戰一個戰俘營舉行 under extraordinary circumstances in the middle of winter 其時正值寒冬，環境嚴酷 It was like negative four degrees Fahrenheit 氣溫低至華氏負四度 below zero, very cold, Celsius as well 攝氏亦低於零度 [負二十度]，非常寒冷

What I’m going to share with you today is not a theoretical analysis 今天我不會做樂曲分析 because as Daniel said, I’m not a theorist 因為如蔡教授所說，我不是樂理家 I’m a clarinettist 我是單簧管手 It’s not a practical guide to the performance of the piece 但我亦不準備分享演奏心得 even though I am a performer 雖然我是一名演奏家 and it’s not a musicological study 這不是音樂學研究

Because I’m not really a musicologist either 因為我也不算是音樂學家 Really what it is, is a story for musicians and non-musicians alike 這是一個樂手與非樂手咸宜的故事 a story about four incredible people who participated in really 講述關於四個人在二十世紀 one of the most remarkable premieres of the 20th century 進行一場非凡首演 it’s been compared to Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring premiere 世人常將之與史特拉汶斯基《春之祭》的首演比較

So it really was an incredible thing 真的非常厲害 So just to give you a little bit of background 接下來我想簡單講述一下寫作背景 From 1993 to 95 1993到95年 I had the pleasure of living in the incredible city of Paris 我有幸旅居巴黎這個超凡城市 a city where Messiaen spent much of his life 梅湘大半生都在此度過

And were needless to say the musical, cultural, artistic history 自不待言其音樂、文化、藝術底蘊 simply defies the imagination. I had the time of my life 超乎想像，歲月美好 I travelled all over Europe. It was fantastic 我暢遊了歐洲列國，十分愉快 The purpose of this two-year stay was to interview 這兩年的目的是訪問

I witnessed to the creation of the Quartet for the End of Time 我見證了《時間終結四重奏》的創作歷程 and to incorporate these observations into my doctoral treatise 然後將所見所聞寫進博士論文 where I was a student at Florida State University 我當時是佛羅里達州立大學的學生 And this collection of interviews, in connection with the archival research 這些訪問還有相關檔案 on the prison camp 是戰俘營的檔案

Which I visited in what is today Poland 在我去波蘭時查閱的 form the basis of my research for my treatise 它們成為我論文的基石 that was originally entitled Music for Eternity: 論文本題為： A New History of Olivier Messiaen’s Quartet for the End of Time 《為永恆作樂：梅湘〈時間終結四重奏〉新史》 I later made revisions, and changed the title to 其後我修改了論文，把標題改作

For the End of Time: The Story of the Messiaen Quartet 《為時間終結而作：梅湘四重奏的故事》 and that was published in 2003, by Cornell University Press 於2003年由康奈爾大學出版社出版 and then in paperback in 2006 平裝本在2006年出版 And, of course, it’s still in print 當然，還在發行 And I’m very fortunate, as Daniel said 如蔡教授所說，我非常幸運

It’s been translated into a number of languages 此書獲翻譯成幾種語言 French, Italian, Japanese, as you know, Chinese 法文、意大利文、日文，還有中文 And it’s also been the subject of several screenplays 有幾個劇本以它為題材 And hoping that it will eventually become a motion picture 希望終有一天可拍成電影 This book basically reconstructs the compositional history 此書主要重構

About the Quartet for the End of Time 《時間終結四重奏》的創作歷史 about which we’ll find, there were many myths 坊間流傳很多相關故事 things that I proved untrue 我發現都不是事實 And it also explores the biographies of the musicians at the premiere 此書也探討首演四重奏那四位樂手的生平 And their biographies really are fascinating chapters in themselves 他們各自的生平都是精彩故事，可獨立成篇

And a lot of the book talks not just about the Quartet 書中有許多地方都不只談四重奏 but about the extraordinary lives of these four musicians 而是講這四位樂手的非凡人生 So, just a little bit about Messiaen 先大概介紹一下梅湘 You probably already know 你或許已經知道 he was born in 1908 in Avignon, France 他1908年在法國亞維儂出生 to Pierre Messiaen, 父親是皮耶．梅湘

Who was a translator of Shakespeare and an English teacher 他是莎士比亞著作的翻譯，也是一位英文老師 and Cécile Anne Sauvage 母親是賽西樂．安．索伐吉 She was a poet 她是一位詩人 So not surprisingly, 所以毫不意外 Messiaen was drawn to mystery, marvel, and poetry at a very early age 梅湘很小的時候就已對神秘事物、奇跡與詩有興趣 He was also an ornithologist — he loved birds — 他也是一個鳥類學家——他喜歡雀鳥—— and a rhythmician 也是一位節奏學者

As you may have gathered from hearing the sixth movement 你在講座開始時聽到四重奏的第六樂章 of the Quartet at the beginning of this webinar 可能就已經知道 The rhythm in this piece 這首樂曲的節奏 and in Messiaen’s works in general is very complicated 與梅湘大多數作品一樣都非常複雜 And we’ll talk a little bit more about that 我們會多討論一點

He was also very interesting 另外一點有趣的是 in that he mixed sounds the way a painter mixes colours 他把聲音當作顏色混合 associating certain shades with different modes and chords 將某些色調與不同調式及和弦聯繫 And he also drew on Gregorian plainchant 他也借鑒了葛利果聖歌 church modes, and ancient Greek and Hindu rhythms 教會調式、古希臘與印度節奏

All this together kind of created an eclectic musical language 將這些東西兼收並用 that was uniquely his 創造別樹一格的音樂語言 And all of these elements are present in the Quartet 這些元素全都在四重奏中出現 You may have already seen a picture of Messiaen 你或許已經見過梅湘的照片 and I can’t show you a picture from my book 我不能給你看書中圖片

Just because there are copyright issues 因為有版權問題 But I’ll share just a couple of small photos from the internet with you 不過我可以給你看一些在網上找的小照片 just so you can see what he looked like at various ages 讓你看一下他不同年歲的樣子 So you can see at various ages, that’s Messiaen 你看，這就是梅湘不同年歲的樣子

As Daniel said, this piece has a religious basis 如蔡教授所說，此曲具有宗教意義 It was inspired by the Book of Revelation 創作靈感源自《啟示錄》 and its title page alludes to the verse 樂譜封面暗射 from the 10th chapter of Revelation 《啟示錄》第十章的經文 in which the angel of the apocalypse raises his hand towards heaven 末日災難的天使向天舉手

And declares that there will be no more time 宣告再也沒有時間存在了 But interestingly enough 有趣的是 though it might seem like the idea for the End of Time 雖然時間終結看似語帶雙關 is a play on words with the duration of captivity 暗指梅湘或將永陷囹圄 Messiaen said that the Apocalypse was simply a point of departure 但梅湘說末日災難只是一個出發點

And he based his piece basically on that piece 他取材於那段經文 and the instruments and the instrumentalists that he had on hand: 還有他可以用的樂器和樂手： Jean Le Boulaire, violinist 小提琴家勒布雷 Henri Akoka, clarinettist 單簧管家阿科卡 and Étienne Pasquier, cellist 與大提琴家巴斯奇耶 So Messiaen said there was not really a play on words 梅湘說他的文字遊戲

With the duration of captivity 與他身囚牢獄的時間無關 But as I mentioned about rhythm 但我曾提及節奏 there is a play on words in regard to 梅湘的文字遊戲 beats of equal duration in classical music 是關於古典音樂的等時節拍 So basically, in this piece, Messiaen strove to 總括而言，梅湘藉此作品 eliminate our conventional notions of musical time 力求打破我們對音樂時間

Rhythm and meter, and of past and future 節奏與節拍、過去與未來的傳統觀念 And actually the number of movements is also symbolic 其實樂章數目也是一個象徵 It also has religious significance 具有宗教意味 So Messiaen wrote: 梅湘寫道： ‘The number seven is symbolic, [Original text: Seven is a perfect number] 「七這個數字有象徵意義 [原文：七是一個完美數字]

The Creation in six days sanctified by the divine Sabbath 六日所創之世，聖化於安息之日 the seventh day of this repose extends into eternity 七日之息趨於無盡 and becomes the eighth day of eternal light, of unalterable peace.’ 化作八日無窮之光，不易之寧。」 Beautiful statement 很優美的句子 So just a few words about the musical content of this piece 我先簡介一下樂曲的內容

Before we delve into the compositional history and famous Premiere 然後再講述創作歷程以及那聞名於世的首演 While the piece is written for four instruments — 此作雖有四件樂器—— violin, clarinet, cello, and piano 小提琴、單簧管、大提琴、鋼琴 — they all play together only in four movements — ——但它們只在四個樂章共奏—— one, two, six and seven 一、二、六、七

You heard a little bit of six in which they all play together 你聽了第六樂章的一小部分四器並奏 In movement one, they play together 第一樂章也是四器並奏 but they all play various different rhythms 但各自有不同節奏 And this movement also has the first incidence of identifiable birdsong 在這樂章，亦可初次聽到清晰可辨的鳥歌 which would become a trademark in Messiaen’s later compositions 這將成為梅湘日後作品的特色

So the first movement, ‘Crystal Liturgy’ 第一樂章〈晶瑩的聖禮〉 has blackbird and nightingale calls in it 有烏鶇和夜鶯的鳴叫聲 And as I said, very complicated rhythms 如我所說，節奏非常複雜 I know from playing this piece 我吹奏過此曲 that we have to spend the most amount of time 知道要花最多時間 on this first movement and the sixth movement 在第一和第六樂章

Because the rhythm is so complicated 因為節奏極為複雜 The second movement is called 第二樂章題為 ‘Vocalise, for the Angel Who Announces the End of Time’ 〈無言歌，獻給宣告時間終結的天使〉 and Messiaen writes that this movement 據梅湘所書 evokes the power of this mighty angel 樂章表現這位天使的力量 crowned with a rainbow and clothed in a cloud 天使頭頂彩虹，身披雲霞，十分強大

Messiaen also refers to blue-orange chords in the piano 梅湘也提及鋼琴的藍橙色和弦 So again, his association of certain chords with distinct colours 之前說過，他喜歡將和弦與顏色聯繫 The third movement is called ‘Abyss of the Birds’ 第三樂章是〈禽鳥的深淵〉 And again, I’m giving you the English titles 我說的是英文標題 rather than the French just to simplify 不用法文是為了簡單一些

But of course, these are originally written in French 當然，原文都是法文 This movement is for unaccompanied clarinet 這個樂章為單簧管編寫，沒有伴奏 And interestingly enough 有趣的是 Daniel alluded to the clarinettist, Akoka 蔡教授提及過單簧管手阿科卡 who had his clarinet with him 他那個時候帶著單簧管 And the reason that this movement 這個樂章 was the first movement to be written 是梅湘寫的第一個樂章

Was because Akoka was the only one who had an instrument 因為當時只有阿科卡有樂器 and the piece actually started earlier 梅湘其實早就開始創作此曲 than previous books have claimed 比前人所述更早 This movement is actually in an ABA form 這個樂章以ABA曲式編寫 For those of you who are not musicians 為沒有學過音樂的人解釋一下 ABA basically means that the outer sections are similar ABA曲式中，首尾樂段相似

And the inner section is different 中間樂段則截然不同 So in this movement 在這個樂章中 the outer sections are very dark and slow and gloomy 首尾樂段又黑暗又緩慢又陰沉 and they’re supposed to represent the abyss 代表深淵 And the inner section is much faster and sprightly and colourful 中間樂段則輕快、生動、多彩許多 and it’s supposed to represent the hopefulness of birdsong 代表充滿希望的鳥歌

Messiaen wrote that birds represent our longing 梅湘說鳥代表我們的渴求 for light, for stars, for rainbows, and for jubilant songs 對光明、對星星、對彩虹、對歡快歌曲的渴求 You have the gloominess of the abyss of the camp 一方面是戰俘營那陰鬱的深淵 And then you have the hopefulness of the birdsong which is so beautiful 另一方面是甜美而充滿希望的鳥鳴聲

The fourth movement is really an interlude for violin, clarinet and cello 第四樂章是真的間奏曲，有小提琴、單簧管和大提琴 and it has melodic recalls that appear in the other movements 引用了其他樂章的旋律 It’s rhythmically and harmonically the simplest 節奏與和聲都是曲中最簡單的 The fifth and the eighth movements are homages to Messiaen’s faith 第五與第八樂章向梅湘的信仰致意 and are solo movements 兩個樂章都是獨奏

For violin and piano 一個是鋼琴與小提琴獨奏 and cello and piano 一個是鋼琴與大提琴獨奏 The fifth movement for cello and piano 第五樂章是鋼琴與大提琴獨奏 and it’s called ‘Praise to the Eternity of Jesus’ 題為〈禮讚耶穌基督的永恆〉 And the eighth movement ‘Praise to the Immortality of Jesus’ 第八樂章題為〈禮讚耶穌基督的耶穌不朽〉 for violin and piano 是鋼琴與小提琴獨奏

And I know listening to that sixth movement 當你聽第六樂章時 you probably heard a lot of dissonances 你大概聽到了很多不協和音 and it may have been very jarring to you 也許大嚇了一跳 If listening to that sixth movement turns you off at all 如果第六樂章讓你卻步 I would really recommend 我會強烈推薦你

That you listen to this fifth and eighth movement 去聽第五與第八樂章 because they are so beautiful 因為它們非常優美 They are homages to Messiaen’s faith 它們向梅湘的信仰致意 And they have beautiful melodies and they’re absolutely gorgeous 而且有優美的旋律，非常動聽 I already spoke a little bit about the sixth movement 我已略講過第六樂章 Messiaen was famous for non-retrogradable rhythms 梅湘以不可逆行的節奏聞名

A very complicated word, which basically means 聽起來很複雜，意思是 these are rhythms which remain the same 無論從左到右，還是右到左看 whether read from left to right, or right to left — 節奏都一樣的音型—— musical palindromes 音樂回文 So just that was a little bit about the piece itself 這是關於作品的一些介紹 But as I said, I’m not a musicologist 但如我所言，我不是音樂學家

I’m not a theorist 也不是樂理家 What I found most interesting about this piece was 我最感興趣的 really even more than the musical content 是作品的歷史和首演背後的故事 was the story behind its history and premiere 甚至比樂曲內容更感興趣 So as I said, this actually began a bit earlier 如我所說，創作始於較早時候 It didn’t begin in the prison camp Stalag VIII-A 並非在八A戰俘營

It actually began in Verdun a bit earlier, where Messiaen was stationed 而是在凡爾登，梅湘在那裏駐紮 he got drafted into the French army 他獲法國軍隊徵召 And there he met two musicians 在那裏他遇到兩位樂手 Étienne Pasquier and Henri Akoka 巴斯奇耶與阿科卡 who along with him would contribute to the shape of musical history 他們將與梅湘一起塑造音樂史

So Étienne Pasquier was born in 1905 in Tours of France 巴斯奇耶於1905年生於法國圖爾 and he was really a child prodigy 他是個名副其實的神童 He had two older brothers 他有兩個兄長 Jean, a violinist, and Pierre, a violist 小提琴家尚與中提琴家皮耶 and together they formed the Pasquier Trio, Trio Pasquier 他們組成了巴斯奇耶三重奏樂團

Which actually became one of the premier ensembles of its kind 後來成為一個頂級三重奏樂團 very famous trio 享負盛名 But he was drafted in 1939, like Messiaen 跟梅湘一樣，他於1939年被徴召入伍 nine years after he was appointed 那是他當上巴黎歌劇院管弦樂團 principal cellist of the Paris Opera Orchestra 首席大提琴手的第九年 And he was sent to Verdun 他被派去凡爾登

And there he was put in charge of four other French soldiers 奉命統率四個法國士兵 and among them happened to be Olivier Messiaen 其中一個竟是梅湘 It’s probably hard to imagine 很難想像 someone else being in charge of Messiaen 有人可以指揮梅湘 he’s the big composer 他可是大作曲家 but Pasquier was actually in charge of Messiaen 但巴斯奇耶真的曾當過梅湘的上司

So I’m just going to show you a few pictures of the Trio Pasquier 我們可以看幾張巴斯奇耶三重奏樂團的照片 just so that you can see what they look like 讓你知道他們的長相 So Pasquier was very famous 巴斯奇耶當時非常有名 He and Messiaen used to go on birdwatching expeditions together 那時候他與梅湘經常一起去觀鳥 Messiaen asked Pasquier if they could do this together 梅湘問巴斯奇耶可否跟他一起

So that they could listen to the awakening of the birds at dawn 去聽拂曙百鳥啼鳴 And Pasquier, I interviewed him several times 而巴斯奇耶，我訪問過他數次 and he would recount these episodes to me with humor and affection 他憶述這些片段時總是充滿熱情和幽默 So this is what Pasquier said at one interview: 有一次訪問，他說 ‘Look, a faint glimmer over there 「看，那熹微的晨光

It’s dawn, Messiaen would say, the moment was still 是黎明，梅湘會說，時間靜止了 then all of a sudden we heard ‘peep’ 然後突然聽到『吱』的一聲 a small cry of a bird, a bird giving the pitch like a conductor 一隻鳥在低鳴，像指揮般唱出一個音 Five seconds later, all the birds 五秒後，所有雀鳥 started singing together like an orchestra 開始如管弦樂團般齊唱 “Listen to them,” Messiaen said 『聽，』梅湘說：

“They’re giving each other assignments 『牠們在給彼此安排作業， They’ll reunite tonight 牠們會在晚上重聚 to recount what they saw during the day.”‘ 憶述日間所見所聞。』」 So here, near Verdun, this chorus of birds 在那處，凡爾登附近，這個鳥聲合唱 would inspire ‘Abyss of the Birds’ 將成為〈禽鳥的深淵〉的靈感來源 But in the person of Henri Akoka, it also had a human inspiration 不過與阿科卡相識也成為梅湘的創作泉源

Akoka was born in 1912, 阿科卡生於1912年 but he was actually born in Algeria and emigrated to France 但他其實在阿爾及利亞出生，其後移居法國 He went to the Paris Conservatory and upon graduation 他就讀巴黎音樂學院，畢業後 entered into the National Radio Orchestra of Paris 加入巴黎國立廣播管弦樂團 but like Messiaen and Pasquier 但跟梅湘與巴斯奇耶一樣 in 1939, he was drafted. 1939年，他被徵召入伍

He was sent to play in a military orchestra in Verdun 他獲派去凡爾登一個軍樂團 and there he met Messiaen and Pasquier 在那裏遇到梅湘與巴斯奇耶 And in Verdun, where listening to the birds had become a daily ritual 在凡爾登，觀鳥聽鳥成了每日習慣 Messiaen, prodded by the clarinettist 梅湘受這位單簧管演奏家激勵 wrote his famous ‘Abyss of the Birds’ 寫了著名的〈禽鳥的深淵〉

But Akoka had not even had a chance to read Messiaen’s composition 但阿科卡連看一眼樂譜也沒來得及 When, on May 10, 1940, Germany launched a blitzkrieg 1940年5月10日，德軍展開閃電戰 against Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands 進軍比利時、盧森堡與荷蘭 the musicians were forced to flee 樂手不得不逃亡 They were captured on June 20th by the Germans 他們在6月20日遭德軍俘虜

And then they were sent on a 43-mile hike to Nancy 被押往南鍚，徙步走了四十三英里 before being transported to the prison camp in Germany 最後被送進德國的戰俘營前 And this is where Akoka read ‘Abyss of the Birds’ for the first time 在此處，阿科卡才第一次讀到〈禽鳥的深淵〉 and Pasquier said at one of our interviews: 在一次訪談中，巴斯奇耶說：

‘I was the music stands, that is to say, I held the score for him 「那時我是譜架，就是說，我幫他拿著樂譜 Akoka would grumble 阿科卡會抱怨 as Messiaen asked for unbelievably high notes 因為梅湘要他吹一些高得離譜的音 “It can’t be done!” protested Akoka 阿科卡抗議說：『這不可能做到！』 but Messiaen would listen and say 但梅湘聽完就說： “But yes, you’re getting there.”‘ 『可是你快要做到了。』」

So less than two months after the German invasion of May 1940 1940年5月德軍入侵後不到兩個月 France surrendered 法國便投降了 On June 25, 1940 1940年6月25日 five days after the three musicians had been captured 三位樂手被俘後五日 an armistice was signed. 兩國簽署了停火協議 The musicians were sent to Stalag VIII-A 樂手被送到八A戰俘營

A German camp for prisoners of war 戰俘營位於德國 in the town of Görlitz-Moys in Silesia 西利西亞地區的哥利茲鎮 and I do have a photo for you of the camp 我有一幅戰俘營的照片 So as you can see, this is Stalag VIII-A in winter 1940 大家可以看到，這是1940年冬天的八A戰俘營

You can see all the snow. How cold it must have been 看這皚皚白雪，那該有多冷 So Messiaen’s description of his arrival Daniel alluded to 蔡教授提及過梅湘對自己入營的描述 it’s really become a symbol of the composer’s triumph 那段經歷成為了作曲家勝利的徽章 And this is a very famous description 這描述廣為人知 You may already know it 你可能已經聽過

But in case you don’t, I’m gonna read it to you 但以防萬一，讓我念給你聽 because it’s very powerful 因為真的非常震撼 This is what Messiaen said: 梅湘是這樣說的： ‘Upon arriving at the camp of Görlitz in Silesia 「抵達西利西亞的哥利茲 called in military jargon Stalag VIII-A 也就是軍事用語所謂的『八A戰俘營』時 like all the other prisoners 我與其他戰俘一樣

I was at once stripped of my clothing, naked 立即被剝去衣服，一絲不掛 I continued to guard, with a fearsome look 我神情兇惡地一直謢著我的行囊 a satchel containing all of my treasures 裏面裝了我所有珍貴物品 that is to say, a little library of pocket orchestral scores 那是一個小圖書館，全是袖珍版的管弦樂譜 that would be my consolation 那是我的慰藉 when, like the Germans themselves 尤其是當我與那些德國人一樣

I suffered from hunger and cold 飢寒交迫之時 This eclectic little library ranged 這個小圖書館兼收並蓄 from the Brandenburg Concerti of Bach, to the lyric suite of Berg 從巴哈的布蘭登堡協奏曲到伯格的抒情組曲都有 Aside from some required chores 除了被要求做一些雜役 I was soon able to enjoy relative tranquillity 我尚可以享受片刻安寧 the Germans considering me as someone perfectly inoffensive 那些德國人覺得我人畜無害

Moreover, as they’ve always respected music 再者，他們無論何時何地 wherever it is to be found 都尊重音樂 not only did they let me keep my scores 他們不僅允許我保留樂譜 but an officer gave me pencils, erasers and manuscript paper.’ 一個軍官更給了我鉛筆、橡皮擦與空白五線譜」 So quite an extraordinary story 這是一個頗為特別的故事 The name of this officer had never before been mentioned 這個軍官的名字此前從未暴光

But in my research 但根據我的研究發現 I discovered that this man was Captain Karl-Albert Brüll 這位軍官名叫布呂爾 He was a lawyer 他是一個律師 and he spoke fluent French thanks to a Belgian mother 他的母親是比利時人，所以他能操流利法文 and so he could communicate with the French prisoners 可以與法國戰俘溝通 which really made a difference 這真的起了關鍵作用

And it was actually due to this one officer 而實際上正是多虧了這位軍官 that Messiaen got this special treatment 梅湘才獲此特別待遇 that the musicians found instruments 樂手才獲得樂器 and that they had a place in which to rehearse 大家才有地方排練 So given our knowledge of the atrocities 我們都知道二戰時候 committed by the Nazis during World War II 納粹的暴行

The kind treatment that these musicians received 這位德國戰俘營軍官 from this German prison camp official 對這幾位樂手如此優待 might seem very unusual, if not suspect 可能顯得，若不成疑，也極不尋常 However, it’s important to remember that, as Daniel said 可是，要記得蔡教授曾說過 this was a prison camp. It wasn’t a concentration camp 那是一個戰俘營，不是集中營

That means that the people sent to Stalag VIII-A 就是說被送到八A的人 were not sent there to be murdered 不是被送去殺害 They were just sent there to be imprisoned 只是送去囚禁 Also, Brüll, though he was a German nationalist was an anti-Nazi 而且，雖然布呂爾信奉德國民族主義，他是個反納粹派 Finally, special treatment of musicians in the German prison camps 最後，可能因為德國的悠久音樂傳統

Perhaps due to Germany’s long musical tradition, was not unusual 在獄中優待樂手並非稀奇之事 If you want to be a little cynical 如果你想犬儒一點 you can also say 你也可以說 that as the Germans were hoping that France would collaborate 這是因為德國想法國與他們合作 and as we know it did 而他們的確有如此想法

It was in their interest to treat the French prisoners well 所以，善待法國戰俘有利於他們 So with Brüll’s assistance, Messiaen was on his way 在布呂爾的幫助下 towards realising the composition of the Quartet 梅湘一步一步創作他的四重奏 But one vital role was missing—a violinist 但還缺一個重要角色——小提琴手 Well, a man named Jean Le Boulaire arrived 剛好一個叫勒布雷的人被送進去 and the problem was solved 問題便迎刃而解

He was born in 1913 in Saint-Ouen-sur-Seine in France 他在1913年出生於法國塞納河畔聖旺 He went to the Paris Conservatory at the age of 14 十四歲入讀巴黎音樂學院 but unfortunately, he never got his First Prize 很遺憾，他沒有獲得優等文憑 And when I interviewed him and subsequently corresponded with him 在訪問中，還有後來的書信往來中 he said that this failure was very difficult to forget 他都說這個失敗讓他難以釋懷

He served in the military twice, from 1934 to 1936 他曾兩度從軍，第一次是1934至1936年 and then again, when he was remobilized in 1938 在1938年再次被徵召入伍 he too, was captured in June 1940, sent to Stalag VIII-A 他與其他人一樣，在1940年6月被俘，送進八A happened to find himself in the very same bunk 他發現自己與一個法國單簧管手 as a certain French clarinettist 分到同一個鋪位

Well, guess who? Henri Akoka 你猜是誰？正是阿科卡 And one thing led to another 一來二去 and instead of a trio, the musicians became a Quartet 三重奏就變成了四重奏 But you may wonder how they got instruments, right? 你可能想問，他們的樂器是怎麼來的，對吧？ Akoka was the only one who had his clarinet 他們之中，只有阿枓卡隨身帶著單簧管

Well, it was thanks to Brüll that they all got instruments 多虧了布呂爾，他們才所有人都有樂器 Messiaen got a piano 梅湘得到一台鋼琴 Pasquier got a cello 巴斯奇耶得到一個大提琴 And Le Boulaire got a violin 勒布雷獲得一把小提琴 And in my book, I recount 我的書中描述了 how Pasquier played his cello for all the prisoners 巴斯奇耶為戰俘拉奏大提琴的情境

And they were so delighted; they wouldn’t let him stop 他們高興得不讓他停下來 It was such a joyous event 那是一個充滿歡欣喜樂的節目 Music just made such a difference in these prisoners’ lives 音樂大大改變了這些戰俘的生活 So in November 1940, the officers brought in a piano 1940年11月，軍官們帶來了一台鋼琴 and I can show you that piano 我可以給你看那鋼琴的照片

So it was an upright piano, it wasn’t a fancy grand 這是一台直立鋼琴，不是高檔三角琴 The musicians had four hours a day to practice 樂手每天有四小時可以練習 6 to 10 p.m., they could rehearse and they could practice on their own 晚上六時到十時，他們可以排練，亦可單獨練習 As you can imagine, Messiaen’s piece really daunted them 你可以想像，梅湘的作品真的難倒了他們

Even by today’s standards, it’s considered a very difficult piece 就算以今天的標準來看，那也是一首非常困難的樂曲 that requires a ton of rehearsal 需要大量時間排練 But you know, on these instruments 何況是用這些樂器 and playing it for the first time 又是第一次演奏這首作品 not having any recording to listen to for reference 而且沒有錄音作參考 you can imagine how difficult it must have been 可以想像有多困難

Le Boulaire, the violinist recalled: 小提琴手勒布雷回想道： ‘The first great difficulty was to read the piece. It wasn’t easy 「第一層難關是讀譜，那不容易 The second was to play it together 第二層是合奏 Aurally it was very difficult for us 我們很難找到直通正確聲音的路 to find a straight path in the midst of all these winding roads 總是在迂迴曲折的路上徘徊

In this tangled rhythm 在這複雜的節奏中探索 at moments tangled with no point of reference 在那些沒有參照點 with no rhythm at all 沒有節奏的時刻迷路 No longer having our little measure in 4/4 or 3/4 time 因為不再有4／4拍或3／4拍的小節 we were a little lost.’ 我們有點迷失方向。」 Akoka had also encountered these challenges 阿科卡也遇到這些挑戰

The ‘Abyss of the Birds’ demands very long phrases and crescendi 〈禽鳥的深淵〉有很長的樂句和漸強段落 It demanded the utmost in breath control 需要極盡嫻熟地控制呼吸 also extreme softs in the very high register 還有極其輕柔的高音 Even Pasquier admitted 連巴斯奇耶也承認 that this piece challenged him to his limits 這首作品挑戰了他的極限 He said: ‘Never were such things asked of a cellist before 他說：「大提琴手從未被如此要求過

I have to acquire a new technique in order to play it.’ 我需要練習新技術去拉奏此曲。」 But Messiaen, with his faith, was very encouraging 但有信仰的梅湘很會激勵我們 And his presence helped to buoy the spirits of the musicians 在這艱難的時期，他的存在 during these very difficult times 維持了樂手的士氣 Pasquier said to me: ‘Messiaen would say 巴斯奇耶跟我說：「梅湘會叫我們

That one had to believe in the music 相信這音樂 He radiated a sort of light.’ 他身上散發著某種光芒。」 And then he said: ‘I’m going to confess something 然後他說：「坦白說 I don’t believe in God 我不相信上帝 Yet, when I heard Messiaen’s music 然而，當我聽梅湘的音樂時 I suddenly thought that it was possible 我突然想，那可能真的有甚麽

That there was something for thousands of reasons — 原因有數千個—— his way of expressing himself, his kindness 他表達自我的方法、他的友善 his graciousness, his deep studies of music 他的彬彬有禮、他對音樂的深入研究 his love of birds, of wind, of nature 他對鳥、風、大自然的喜愛 All this made an extraordinary impression on me 這全都深深影響了我 I stumbled upon the question of the Divine 以往一論及神聖的問題，我便遲疑以對

But with Messiaen’s music 但聽到梅湘的音樂時 I suddenly said to myself, “God!”‘ 我忽然對自己說：『神啊！』」 So rehearsals continued for a couple of months 排練持續了數月 and then Messiaen finally finished the composition 梅湘終於完成了作品 The camp commandant agreed 戰俘營的司令官同意 to hold the premiere on January 15, 1941 在1941年1月15日下午6時 during the regularly scheduled time for concerts, 6 p.m. 平常舉行音樂會的時間舉辦首演

And they issued invitations to the prisoners 他們給囚友發了邀請函 So this is the invitation 這就是邀請函 Quatuor pour la fin du temps première audition 《時間終結四重奏》首演 You can see Görlitz here, and the date 這裏你可以看到哥利茲，還有日期 But as you can see here at the bottom 但在底部你可以看到 they misspelled Messiaen’s name 他們拼錯了梅湘的名字

So on the cover of my book, we have to cut that off 在拙作的封面上，我們需要裁掉這部分 because we didn’t want Messiaen’s name 當然是因為我們不想梅湘的名字 to be misspelled on the cover of my book, of course 在我著作的封面上拼錯 So you may have heard of 你可能已經聽過 Messiaen’s account of the premiere, very famous 梅相如何描述那場首演，那非常著名

But I’ll recount it just in case you haven’t 但若然沒有，我將複述一遍 It’s really become a legend 那真的成為了傳奇 This is what Messiaen said: 這是梅湘的原話： ‘Conceived and compose during my captivity 「《時間終結四重奏》 寫於我被俘之時 the Quartet for the End of Time was premiered 在1941年1月15日 in Stalag VIII-A on January 15, 1941 於八A戰俘營首演

It took place in Görlitz in Silesia in a dreadful cold 那是在哥利茲的嚴冬之中 Stalag was buried in snow 戰俘營埋在白雪底下 We were 30,000 prisoners, French for the most part 我們有三萬個戰俘，大多是法國人 with a few Poles and Belgians 有少數波蘭人與比利時人 The four musicians played on broken instruments 四位樂手用破爛的樂器演奏 Etienne Pasquier’s cello had only three strings 巴斯奇耶的大提琴只有三根弦

The keys of my upright piano remain lowered when depressed 我的直立鋼琴的琴鍵按下去後不會回彈 It’s on this piano 我正是用這鋼琴 with my three fellow musicians dressed in the oddest way 與三個奇裝異服的夥伴 I myself wearing a bottle-green suit 我穿著一件捷克軍人的深綠色制服 of a Czech soldier completely tattered 那制服破爛不堪 and wooden clogs large enough for the blood to circulate 還有一對木鞋，大得足以讓血液流通

Despite the snow underfoot 雖然腳下踩著冰雪 that I played my Quartet for the End of Time 我依然在五千觀眾前 before an audience of 5000 people 演奏了我的《時間終結四重奏》 The most diverse classes of society were mingled — 社會各階層人士混雜一堂—— farmers, factory workers, intellectuals 農夫、工廠工人、知識分子 professional servicemen, doctors and priests.’ 專職軍人、醫生、牧師。」 And Messiaen concluded by saying: 梅湘總結道：

‘Never before have I been listened to 「我從未見過有觀眾 with such attention and understanding.’ 如此專注地聆聽、深入地理解我的音樂。」 So quite an extraordinary story 頗為不同凡響的故事 But in my research 但我的研究發現 I actually found out that some of it wasn’t true 梅湘所說並非全然真實 because given that the premiere took place 因為首演的地方 in an enclosed military barrack 是一個封閉的軍事建築

No more than a few hundred spectators, not 5000, could have attended 最多只有數百位觀眾能出席，而並非五千 And though Messiaen’s piano 而且，雖然梅湘的鋼琴 was sorely inadequate, as I showed you 正如剛才照片所示，破爛不堪 was just this little upright with keys that stuck 是一個琴鍵不起的小直立琴 Pasquier, at my interviews, repeatedly affirmed 但巴斯奇耶在訪問中多次確認 that his cello had all four of its strings 他的大提琴四根琴弦並在

So you might wonder why Messiaen would deliberately falsify history 你或許好奇為何梅湘要故意竄改歷史 I wondered, too 我也曾好奇 Pasquier thought that it amused him to say that 巴斯奇耶覺得梅湘是為了好玩 Later, he speculated 之後，他猜想 that Messiaen’s persistent repetition of this story 梅湘如此執意重複這個故事 stemmed from his desire to illustrate the hardships 是因為他想闡述樂手演奏這首四重奏時

That the musicians faced in performing the Quartet 所面對的種種困難 I kind of have a different take on it 我有不同的見解 In perpetuating this legend of the three-string cello 在延續這三弦大提琴的傳奇時 Messiaen imbued this story 梅湘為這故事 with an even greater aura of the miraculous 增添了更多神奇色彩 It’s like him view the story 像是他看這個故事時

With the image of birds flying over the abyss 看到群鳥飛過深淵 a quartet of musicians rising above the apocalypse 看到四重奏樂手飛升至末日上空 redeeming the earth, through music 用音樂救贖大地 Even though they were playing in bitter cold 縱使他們在嚴寒中演奏 tattered clothing and broken instruments 身著襤褸，手執破爛樂器 it must have seemed like there was the possibility 定也看似有機會藉這音樂禱告

Of resurrection with this musical prayer of a piece 在末日後重生 So although Pasquier played on a cello with all four strings intact 雖然巴斯奇耶的大提琴四弦並在 and though there were several hundred 雖然觀眾只有數百 not several thousand people in the audience 而非數千 it can be certain to use the words of writer Hannelore Lauerwald: 我們也肯定可以引用勞爾華德的話：

That ‘in Messiaen’s memory 「在梅湘的記憶中 a “messianic” vision of a thousand of fellow prisoners 彌賽亞拯救數千囚友的幻像 stayed alive.’ 仍歷歷在目。」 But certainly, despite this mystery of reporting 雖然梅湘的憶述充滿迷團 it’s very clear that this premiere 但這場首演確實 had an indelible mark on the audience 對觀眾來說難以忘懷

There was an article published in a French newspaper Nice-Matin 法國《尼斯早報》有一篇文章 on the 60th anniversary of the premiere by Charles Jourdanet 報導首演六十週年，作者是儒達內 who was a prisoner in the audience 他是觀眾之一，也是個戰俘 So I thought I would just read to you his brief recount 我會讀一段他的憶述 This is what he said, ‘a cello solo 他寫道：「一段大提琴獨奏

Then a grand violin solo with a long ascent towards the high register 然後一段壯麗的小提琴獨奏，踏著漫漫長路，爬上高音處 These are the final notes that resonate through the 這些曲終之音，在『音樂廳』中迴響 “concert hall” as well as through the hearts of the listeners 也在觀眾心中迴盪 There were silence then applause 一片靜默過後，掌聲響起 Members of the audience approached the composer on stage 觀眾走向台上的作曲家

Outside, it is minus 20 degrees Celsius 外面是攝氏零下二十度 Inside, despite several primitive heaters 裏面雖然有幾個原始暖爐 the temperature cannot be more than five degrees Celsius 氣溫也不會高於攝氏五度 On this memorable day, for the several hundred spectators 在這難忘的一天，數百觀眾 so honoured to witness not just a musical premiere 有幸目睹一場音樂首演 but a world premiere 而且是世界首演

It was daily life as usual 但那天的生活其實與平常無異 Six o’clock a.m., distribution of ersatz coffee 六時，派發代用咖啡 Eight o’clock to noon, chores 八時至中午，從事勞役 Noon, cabbage soup 中午，喝椰菜湯 One to four o’clock, more chores 一至四時，繼續勞役 Five o’clock, more ersatz 五時，更多代用咖啡 along with a little loaf of black bread 還有一小條黑麵包

With a little fromage blanc and quite a bit of grease 以及一小塊白奶酪和一點油脂 [Fromage blanc is like a kind of French cheese.] 白奶酪是一種法國芝士 Finally at six o’clock 最後，六時 the concert in Barrack 27, the theatre 音樂會在二十七號營房的劇院舉行 On this cold night 在這寒冷的夜晚 seated on benches in Barrack 27 坐在二十七號營房的長板凳上 we listened 我們聆聽著

Some moved by the unexpected fervor 有人受這意想不到的激情感動 others agitated by rhythms and sonorities 有人則焦躁不安 to which they were unaccustomed 他們不習慣那節奏和聲音 to the creation of what Messiaen called a great act of faith 那梅湘所謂信者之舉的創作 The concert was over, but for several of us 音樂會已結束，但對我們其中有些人來說 a beautiful moment remained 尚存傾刻美好

In which the awesome young master 在那一刻，令人驚嘆的年輕大師身旁 was surrounded by friends and admirers.’ 簇擁著朋友與仰慕者。」 Pasquier in our interviews echoed this religious theme 巴斯奇耶在我們的訪談中，也曾提到這宗教主題 He said that the premiere was a miracle 他說那場首演是神蹟 that transcended not only place and time 不只突破了時間和地點的限制 but as Messiaen said 也如梅湘所言 differences in nationality and social class 打破了族裔之分、階級之別

Pasquier said: 巴斯奇耶說： ‘Everyone listened reverently with an almost religious respect 「每個人都虔誠地傾聽，幾近對神的崇敬 including those who perhaps were 其中包括那些 hearing chamber music for the first time 第一次聽室內樂的人 It was miraculous 非常神奇 These people who had never before heard such music, remained silent 那些從沒有聽過這種音樂的人，不發一言 They sat perfectly still, in awe 他們驚嘆地坐著，一動也不動

Not one person stirred 一個稍有動作的人也沒有 No doubt, they reassumed 無疑，他們在音樂會後 their original personalities afterward 都回復本來個性 but there they were subject to a miracle 但在那裏，他們都沐浴在神蹟之中 the miracle of the performance of this music.’ 這場音樂會的神蹟。」 So what happened afterward? 後來發生了甚麼？ Well, just a month later 一個月後 Messiaen and Pasquier were liberated due to their notoriety 梅湘和巴斯奇耶因為臭名遠播而獲得釋放

Messiaen was appointed to a teaching post at the Paris Conservatory 梅湘獲巴黎音樂學院聘用在那裏任教 and Pasquier resumed his role in the Pasquier trio 巴斯奇耶重返巴斯奇耶三重奏樂團與 and in the Paris Opera Orchestra 巴黎歌劇院管弦樂團，恢復原職 Le Boulaire was liberated a year later 勒布雷一年後獲釋 and by an unusual turn of events, became an actor 出乎意料成為了演員

A very successful actor under a new name, Jean Lanier 改名拉尼耶，事業非常成功 As for the clarinettist, Henri Akoka, that’s another story entirely 至於單簧管手阿科卡，那是完全另外一個故事 I didn’t mention that Akoka was Jewish 我先前沒有說阿科卡是猶太人 and previous history books didn’t mention this 之前的歷史書亦沒有提及這點 and neither did Messiaen 梅湘也沒有講過 And this is a very important fact 這一點很重要

Because while Messiaen and Pasquier and Le Boulaire 因為當梅湘、巴斯奇耶與勒布雷 were settling back into life in Paris 都在巴黎恢復正常生活時 Akoka and his whole family were fleeing the Nazis 阿科卡與全家人都在逃避納粹黨 And the tale of their heroic survival — 他們英勇生還的故事—— Akoka actually escaped from the camp — 阿科卡其實逃出了戰俘營—— has as many twists and turns 與《時間終結四重奏》本身的故事一樣

As the story of the Quartet for the End of Time itself 也充滿曲折 But I think I’ll save that 但我想我會留待 and let you read about it in my book 你們自己在拙作讀到這一部分 because I don’t want to give away everything 因為我不想透露所有內容 otherwise it won’t be any fun for you to read the book 不然你們看書時就毫無趣味可言

So I know I need to conclude now 我知道現在要作總結 But I’m happy to answer any questions afterward 但我很樂意在之後回答任何提問 So feel free 所以請隨便發問 So Daniel, I’ll turn this over to you now. Thank you 蔡教授，接下來交給你，謝謝 Thank you, Rebecca, so much 非常感謝你，瑞貝卡 That was a wonderful, wonderful talk 這是個很精彩的演講

And painting a great context for us to understand this piece 描述了很好的歷史背景，讓我們暸解樂曲 We are forever indebted, actually, to your research 事實上，我們永遠感激你的研究 and the timeliness of your research 你的研究很合時 being able to talk with people like Jean Lanier 可以訪問拉尼耶 and also with Etienne Pasquier 還有巴斯奇耶等人 So it’s an amazing book 那是一本很令人驚嘆的書

And as she says, she hasn’t told you everything 如她所說，她沒有將內容全部相告 so do get it and read it. It’s really cool 所以買來看吧。它真的很棒 But we’re gonna move to Cambridge in the UK now 不過現在我們要轉移到英國劍橋 and hear from Jeremy Begbie 聽傑瑞米．貝格比演講 Jeremy is a very dear friend of mine, but he’s also 傑瑞米是我一個很要好的朋友

The Thomas A. Langford Distinguished Professor in Theology 但他也是杜克大學神學院 at Duke Divinity School 湯瑪士‧朗佛神學傑出教授 and the McDonald Agape Director 也是杜克神學藝術中心的 of Duke Initiatives in Theology and the Arts 麥當勞‧亞加貝總監 That’s quite a title 很長的職稱 you almost have to have circular breathing just to say that 幾乎要用循環呼吸才能說完 Anyway 怎麼也好

He also has a parallel life in Cambridge 他在劍橋有別的生活 because he’s a senior member of Wolfson College in Cambridge 因為他是劍橋大學沃爾森學院的院士 and an affiliated lecturer in the Faculty of Music 也是劍橋大學音樂學院的 at the University of Cambridge 附屬講師 He’s also a professionally trained musician 他也是一個職業樂手，經常演出 who has performed extensively 多數彈奏鋼琴

Mostly as a pianist, but also as an oboist and as a conductor 有時候吹奏雙簧管，還有指揮 And he’s one of the most prolific scholars that I know 他著述等身 He’s written far too many books to recount here 不勝枚舉 But maybe for this particular lecture 但其中兩本書與這講座有關 two books you might want to read: 你可能會感興趣：

Redeeming Transcendence in the Arts: Bearing Witness to the Triune God 《拯救藝術超然：見證三位一體之神》 and Theology, Music and Time 與《神學、音樂與時間》 Also, I should add that we have just edited a book together 而且我們合作編纂了一本書 and it’s really, really good 這本書真的非常非常好 It’s called Theology, Music and Modernity: Struggles for Freedom 它題為《神學、音樂與現代性：為自由抗爭》 And that’s just came out in February 剛剛在二月出版

But anyway, Jeremy, thank you for being here 但無論如何，傑瑞米，感謝你在這裏 for joining us in Cambridge 感謝你在劍橋與我們見面 I look very much forward to your talk 我十分期待你的演講 on the theological content 那是關於梅湘《時間終結四重奏》的 of Messiaen’s Quartet for the End of Time 神學內容 Over to you, Jeremy 交給你，傑瑞米 Thank you so much, Daniel 非常感謝你，蔡教授

It’s been a delight to be with you 很高興與你一起 and a delight to hear you, Rebecca 瑞貝卡，很高興聽到你演講 Thank you so much 非常感謝 What you’ve done so tellingly, and so effectively, of course 當然，你如此生動有力的演講 is to widen and deepen our hearing of this remarkable quartet 是為了提供一個歷史背景 by opening up the historical context that surrounds it 讓我們聽這出色的四重奏時，驗會更深更廣

And I’m extremely grateful for that 我對此極為感激 and of course, also for your book, which is wonderful to read 當然還有你的書，很好看 As you might expect, and as Daniel said 或如你所料，亦如蔡教授所說 I want to widen the vista a bit further 我想把視野再擴闊一點 by exploring the theological dimensions of this piece 去探討此曲的神學層面

And not only this piece, but other related works 不只這首樂曲，還有其他作品 And if I have a thesis, a kind of main point 如果我有一個中心主題 it’s that there’s more to this piece than meets the ear 那就是此曲的內涵超於耳所能聽 which is to say that I think what Messiaen is doing 也就是說，我覺得梅湘所做的 is rather more interesting and provocative 比我們原先可能想的

Than perhaps we might at first think 更為有趣和發人深思 A word or two to begin with about Messiaen’s Catholicism 先講一下梅湘的天主教信仰 As Daniel made clear very much in his introduction 蔡教授在開場時已講明 Rebecca echoed this as well 瑞貝卡亦說過 his faith, his Roman Catholic Faith 梅湘的信仰——羅馬天主教信仰 is the main wellspring of his creative output 是他創作的泉源

There’s no doubt about that 這點毋庸置疑 A devout Roman Catholic for most of his adult life 他大半生都是虔誠的羅馬天主教信徒 ‘I cannot imagine how anyone, even for a moment 「我不能想像有人能質疑我的信仰 could put my faith in question 一刻也不能 The truth is that it is my whole life 事實上，那是我的一生 my motive for being a composer.’ 是我作為作曲家的動力。」

Or in another place: 在別處，他說： ‘The illumination of the theological truths of the Catholic faith 「天主教神學真諦的聖光 is the first aspect of my work, the noblest…’ 是我作品的首要特點，最為崇高……」 So his titles, the biblical quotations 他的標題、聖經引文 the inscriptions on the scores 樂譜上的文字 the spoken commentaries at performances 演奏會上的解說 his writings and his interviews 他的著作與訪問

All betray a keenness that the listener doesn’t miss 全都顯露一種強烈的渴求 the theological undertones and overtones of what they hear 讓聽眾無法忽視那神學的弦外之音 And indeed, he was keen that they would 誠然，他很希望聽眾可以 sense something of the presence of God 在他創造的聲音之中 in and through the sounds he conjures up 感受到天主的存在 So whatever our faith convictions may be 所以無論我們的信仰是甚麼

This dimension is impossible to ignore 也無法忽視這一點 not least in this Quartet 尤其是在這首四重奏裏面 Two things to underline about his faith 關於他的信仰，有兩點需要強調 was Catholicism in particular 特別是關於天主教信仰 First, there was nothing eccentric about his Catholicism 第一，他的天主教信仰甚為正統 He doesn’t dabble in any obvious heresy 他沒有涉足任何明顯的異端學說 He didn’t fall out with the Roman hierarchy 沒有反對羅馬教會的階級體制

Or any of the other transgressive things 也沒有做任何離經叛道的事 we tend to think artists need to do in order to be artists 來符合我們普遍對藝術家的要求 His theology has distinctive accents, certainly 當然，他的神學有其自身特色 And they arise largely from the influence 他的思想大多源自 of a series of French Catholic revivals in the 20th century 二十世紀法國天主教的多次復興運動

One of which was a fresh engagement with the Bible 其中一個運動提倡重新詮釋《聖經》 with Old and New Testaments 《新約聖經》和《舊約聖經》 something very evident in this Quartet, of course 這傾向在這首四重奏中非常明顯 But we don’t find him 但我們沒有看到他 kicking against the central beliefs of Catholicism 反對天主教的中心教義 or treating them as basically impediments 或者視之為阻礙 He dwells in them, lives inside them 他棲於教義之中，活在教義之中

Like a guest in a spacious mansion 像一座恢宏宅院裏的客人 inviting others to discover the treasures he’s found 邀請其他人去發現他找到的寶藏 If there’s anything eccentric 如果要說梅湘 about Messiaen’s engagement with Catholicism 做了甚麼脫離天主教正統的事 it’s the way he weaves it together with — among other things — 那就是他將天主教思想與其他東西一起—— the techniques of musical modernism 糅合至現代音樂的技法之中 of which more in a minute 這一點我稍後會再作討論

Second point to underline about his Catholicism 關於他的天主教信仰，第二點需要強調的是 is it’s cosmic in scope 其格局非常宏大 It embraces the non-human as well as the human 不只關於人，還涉及物 And in this quartet, the birdsong of the fifth movement 這首四重奏中最清晰的例子 is the most obvious signal of this 是第五樂章的鳥歌 but there are many others 但亦有很多其他例子

The canvas against which he’s always working 他終日用來創作的畫布 stretches from the creation of all things 由萬物的創造 to the recreation of all things 延伸至萬物的再創造 from the first ‘Let there be’ 由最初的「要有光」 to the dazzling ‘New Heaven and Earth’ 延伸至《啓示錄》結尾描寫的 portrayed at the end of his beloved Book of Revelation 璀璨的「新天新地」

With the person of Jesus Christ standing at the centre 並以耶穌基督為中心 For Messiaen, Christian faith is essentially 對梅湘來說，基督宗教所論 about a cosmic drama in which we’re caught up 本質上是我們身陷其中的宇宙劇 not the psychodrama of the individual 而不是個人的心理劇 The idea that religion is a private matter 若有人說宗教信仰是私事

Confined to the inner life of the individual 只涉及個人的內心世界 would be decidedly odd to him 梅湘定會覺得此人想法奇怪 What then, of the main theological interest 那麼，這首作品主要的 or thrust of this work? 神學思想或旨趣是甚麼？ Rebecca has set the scene beautifully for that 瑞貝卡已完美地介紹了背景 The piece takes its cue and beat 此曲的思想和節拍

From the text in the Book of Revelation 都源自《啟示錄》 The Book of Revelation is a book 書如其名 that offers just that — a revelation, an unveiling 《啟示錄》透露一切，揭示一切 It’s written to lay bare to a bunch of tiny Christian communities 作者寫此書的目的是向一小撮 under the brutal pressure of a vast Roman Empire 受羅馬帝國暴政壓逼的基督徒

What God is up to, behind the scenes 揭露神在幕後所做的一切 and what God will eventually 告訴他們，神最終會 do publicly for them and for the entire cosmos 公開為他們和整個宇宙做的事 It’s saying, ‘You think this is going on? 他在說：「你以為事情是這樣嗎？ That’s what it looks like. I’ll tell you what’s really going on.’ 表面看似如此。我會告訴你實情。」

In chapter ten, we’re taken into the heavenly throne room 第十章將我們帶到天國的王座室 and an angel burst onto the scene announcing: 一位天使突然降臨 ‘There will be no more time.’ 並且宣告：「再也沒有時間了。」 Messiaen, now imprisoned behind the barbed wire 梅湘此時正身處另一個殘暴帝國——希特拉的帝國 of another brutal empire — Hitler’s empire 被囚刺繩網之內 he seizes on this phrase 他利用這句話

And he takes it to mean, that eventually time itself will be abolished 將它詮釋為，時間本身終會廢除 As Rebecca has explained, he’s not concerned here 瑞貝卡解釋過，他此處關心的不是 about the end of time in prison 時間在獄中終結 but the end of time as a dimension of the cosmos 而是指時間作為宇宙之宙終結 So he could say, ‘My initial thought 所以他說：「我最初所想

Was of the abolition of time itself 是時間本身的廢止 something infinitely mysterious and incomprehensible 這對大多數研究時間的哲學家來說 to most of the philosophers of time.’ 極為玄妙難懂。」 And in this, Messiaen finds consolation 梅湘在其中找到慰藉 what he calls his glimmer of hope 並稱之為他微渺的希望 in the midst of what must have seemed 他身處的環境在許多方面 hopeless surroundings in many way 都一定看似絕望之地

He seems to envisage eternal life with God 他似是想像自己進入永生與神同在 the final future of believers 那是信者的最終未來 as a life entirely without time — timeless 是沒有時間的生命——永恆 So, as far as the music is concerned 所以﹐從這首音樂來看 it’s not surprising to find much 我們毫不意外看到 that seems to press against what we associate with time 與時間相關的元素在多處受到抑遏

Hence the way in this and in many other works 因此，在此曲和很多其他作品中 Messiaen distanced himself from musical techniques 梅湘都遠離推動聽眾前進的 that drive the listener forward 音樂技巧 techniques so basic to Western music 那些技巧是西方音樂的基礎 So much Western music sets up patterns 許多西方音樂 of tension and stress that need to be resolved 都建構需要決解的張力與重音樣式

And so Western music will pull you in and pull you forward 所以西方音樂會引你進去，引你前進 making you want and desire the next thing 讓你期待與渴望接下來的樂音 Messiaen uses many techniques to work against that 梅湘用了許多技巧去反其道而行 hence also the way in which the eight movements 因此，這首四重奏的八個樂章 of this quartet don’t really make an obvious sequence 也沒有構成一個明顯順序

There’s no obvious pressure from one movement to the next 沒有明顯壓力迫使一個樂章過渡到下個一樂章 little sense that this has to follow that 你不會覺得這個一定要在那個之後 hence too, the way that Messiaen likes to separate rhythm and metre 因此，梅湘也喜歡將節奏與節拍分離 His rhythms are indeed complex 他的節奏誠然複雜 And in a lot of music, you’ll have complex rhythms 很多音樂都有複雜的節奏

But underneath you’ll have a steady metre 但背後都有穩定的節拍 That is a steady pattern of beats 每個小節都有相同拍數 twos and threes and fours, typically 通常是兩拍、三拍或四拍 For Messiaen, you won’t find a metre 梅湘的音樂沒有節拍 There’ll be nothing, so to speak, that you can tap your feet to 可以說，你的腳不能跟隨音樂打拍子 Regular cycles of metre are virtually absent 這首音樂和他很多音樂

In this music and a lot of his music 都沒有規律的節拍 And then all those extraordinary movements, of staggering slowness 然後是所有慢得驚人的樂章 The fifth movement for solo cello and piano 比如說，為大提琴和鋼琴編寫的第五樂章 for instance, ‘Praise to the Eternity of Jesus’ 〈禮讚耶穌基督的永恆〉 not only is the pulse exceedingly slow 不僅節奏非常緩慢 the shifts of harmony are drastically stretched out 和聲的轉換也極為拖延

Far more than with most Western music 其程度遠超於大多數西方音樂 Comes to mind something there, if you’ve seen the film Dunkirk 如果你有看電影《鄧寇克大行動》，就會聯想到 when Hans Zimmer takes a famous piece by Elgar 漢斯．森瑪引用艾爾加一首著名作品 and he stretches effectively — 他把樂曲開首拖長—— I don’t know must be about 15 seconds in the original — 我不知道，原曲中應該大概是十五秒——

He stretches that out over two or three minutes 他將它拖長至兩至三分鐘 That’s what this piece will feel like 梅湘這首作品正有此感覺 It stretched out 它給拖長了 He describes himself… 他自己形容…… He himself rather describes this piece 他自己則形容作品是 ‘a broad phrase, “infinitely slow”, on the cello 「一個恢宏延綿、『無窮緩慢』的大提琴樂句 magnifies with love and reverence 懷著敬愛之情

The eternity of the Word 頌揚太初之道的永恆 powerful and gentle, “whose time never runs out”.’ 這道強大而溫潤，且『時間永無止盡』。」 Don’t miss the love and reverence bit there 別忽略此處的敬愛之情 We’ll come back to that later. It’s very crucial 稍後我會細說。這很重要 Likewise, the final glorious and soaring duo 同樣，最後以莊麗衝天之音 for violin and piano, which ends the whole work 總結全曲的小提琴與鋼琴二重奏

‘Praise to the Immortality of Jesus’ 〈禮讚耶穌基督的不朽〉 It’s almost impossibly slow 此曲也不可置信地慢 And it’s harmonic changes drastically extended 和聲轉換也極其延滯 It’s no accident that it’s actually 它其實改編自一首早期的管風琴作品 a transcription of an early organ work 而且絕非偶然 which has the subtitle 因為樂曲的副標題是 ‘Essay on Earthly Life and Blessed Eternity’ 〈論塵世生命與神聖永恆〉

I played the piano part of this piece many times 我彈過它的鋼琴部分很多次 and I confessed, often feeling the need to speed it up 坦白說，我經常覺得要 just ever so slightly 稍微彈快一些 for fear that the aura of stillness will simply 怕那靜止的氛圍 plunge the audience into a prolonged snooze 使觀眾瞌睡連連

Along with this is Messiaen’s love 還有就是，瑞貝卡也說過 of reversible rhythms that Rebecca mentioned 梅湘喜歡可逆節奏 Rhythms that work forwards and backwards 無論順著奏或倒著奏都一樣的節奏 in the same way, palindromes, 23432 就像回文，二三四三二 Messiaen explicitly linked these with eternity in a number of places 在好幾處，梅湘明顯用這些節奏代表永恆 Reversible rhythms are very evident 第六樂章〈顛狂之舞〉

In the sixth movement, ‘the Dancer of Fury’ 也就是講座開始時我們聽到的樂章 the one that we heard at the opening 有非常清晰的可逆節奏 And in the first moment 在整個第一樂章 the cello repeats a fifty-note melody throughout 大提琴不斷重複一個五十個音的旋律 itself made up of two reversible rhythms 這個旋律由兩個可逆節奏組成 Speaking of a much later work, ‘Colours of the Celestial City’ 有一首更後期的作品《天堂的顏彩》

Which was written to conjure up the kaleidoscopic blaze 它表現天上的耶路撒冷的千光萬色 of the Heavenly Jerusalem, he says 梅湘形容這首樂曲時道： ‘The work does not end, having never really begun: 「此曲沒有終結，因為它從沒真正開始： it turns on itself, interlacing its temporal blocks 它自我旋轉，時間區塊交錯 like the rose window of a cathedral with its vivid invisible colours.’ 就像教堂的玫瑰窗那鮮明無形的色彩。」

That paradox is very typical of Messiaen 這個是梅湘的典型悖論 ‘vivid invisible colours’ 「鮮明無形的色彩」 This, Jean Marie Wu, in a very interesting writing 在一篇非常有趣的文章中 speaks of a closed circuitry in this music, in which 尚‧馬赫‧吳談及這音樂的封閉循環 as we put it, Messiaen finds expression of eternal life 我們會說，梅湘藉此表現永生

Does this then mean that Messiaen thought of his music 這是否意味梅湘將自己的音樂 as an escape from time 視為逃離時間的象徵 an escape of some sort any out from time? 代表某種東西脫離了時間的束縛？ Well, looking back on 1941, he could indeed say 回顧1941年，他真的說： ‘If I composed this Quartet 「如果我寫了這首四重奏

It was to escape from the snow, from the war 那是為了逃離雪地，逃離戰爭 from captivity and from myself 逃離囚籠，逃離自己 The greatest benefit that I drew from it 我最大的收獲是 was that in the midst of 30,000 prisoners 在這三萬戰俘之中 I was the only man who was not one,’ 我是唯一一個不是，」 that is, not a prisoner, free 就是說，不是戰俘，是自由的

It would seem anyhow to suggest that for Messiaen 那好像表示，對梅湘來說 time is the enemy, the arch problem 時間是敵人，是頭號問題 and that the Christian’s ultimate destiny is to be imagined 而基督徒的最終歸宿 as the complete absence of all things temporal 便是一切有關時間之物徹底消失 a still static bliss 一種靜止不動的喜樂 And this lends weight, this kind of view, incidentally 順道一提，這種想法

To the charge of the Marxist 支持了馬克思主義者 and many other critics of Christian faith 與很多其他評論家對基督信仰的指控 that the Christian faith is essentially escapist 他們指控基督信仰是逃避主義 deflecting attention from this world 讓人不理世事 towards a supposedly timeless beyond 只專注於據稱是永恆的來世 And yet, and yet, I wonder if things are quite so simple 但是，但是，我懷疑事情是否如此簡單

Perhaps there’s more going on here than Messiaen admits 可能事實比梅湘說的更要複雜 To begin with 首先 there’s by no means a complete absence of forward motion 這首樂曲並非完全沒有前進 of tensions needing resolving in this piece 也不全然沒有需要釋放的張力 You take those ultra-slow pieces for cello and violin 例如，那兩個極慢的大提琴和小提琴樂章

Both of them trace a very clear arc from a stable opening 兩者都有一個清晰的方向：開首平穩 through tension to an ultimate resolution 然後張力漸增，最後解決 The cello piece in particular winds us up 尤其是那個大提琴樂章，它挑釁我們 to a point of almost unbearable stress 向我們施加難以承受的壓力 before suddenly giving way to the hushed and serene pianissimo 然後突然奏出一個平靜安寧的極弱音 that leads to its close 結束樂章

So that’s one thing. Another 這是一點。另一點是 Yes, in this piece, he chooses to portray the afterlife 對，在這首樂曲，他將死後生命 as one of timeless stillness 表現為永恆的靜止 or at least it moves in that direction 或者說至少是往這個方向構思 But in other works, he portrays it in extremely dynamic terms 但在其他作品，他的表現方式極為動態 Only two years before 就在寫這四重奏的兩年前

In his organ cycle, translated the ‘Glorious Bodies’ 他寫了一首管風琴套曲，譯作《享天福的聖體》 and he’s thinking of the resurrection life of the future 他在思考將來重生之時 when our bodies will be remade 我們的肉身會重塑 He pulls on Thomas Aquinas’s idea 他參閱了多瑪斯‧阿奎那的理論 that in the heaven our bodies will be agile 阿奎那認為，在天堂時 mobile, as never before 我們的肉身會前所未有地靈活、輕盈

Most of the music is dizzyingly fast, bursting with motion 那首樂曲大多數時候都繚亂急速，爆發式地前進 Here we might say, eternal life is 這裡我們可以說，永恆生命 much more like running and not growing weary 比較像不會力竭的奔跑 than sitting motionless and never stirring 而不是坐著不動，毫無生氣 And in that same work, God the Trinity is no static chord 在同一套曲中，神的三位一體不是一個靜止的和弦

But an interweaving of three melodic lines 而是三個旋律交織在一起 My point is that I think Messiaen’s theological imagination 我的意思是，我覺得梅湘的神學構想 was much wider than his words about this quartet suggests 比他講解這首四重奏所言更要廣闊 and wider than a superficial hearing of the music might suggest 也比只聽表面樂音所會更要宏大 To be sure, in the Nazi camp of 1941 無可否認，在1941年的納粹戰俘營

It’s hardly surprising if Messiaen 如果梅湘正如我們感受到那樣 resists something associated with time as we now experience it 抗拒某些與時間有關的事物，那一點也不奇怪 His major enemy, I would suggest, is transience 他的主要敵人，我會說，是無常 That is a sense of things passing away 那是指事物壞滅 With the Quartet in mind, he writes: 他想著這首四重奏，寫道： ‘Time…is divided in a thousand ways 「時間可以一千種方式分切

Of which the most immediate for us 於我們而言最直接的 is a perpetual conversion of the future into the past.’ 便是不斷將未來變為過去。」 ‘A perpetual conversion of the future into the past’ — 「不斷將未來變為過去」—— things perpetually sliding away into an irrecoverable past 事物不斷流逝至過往，一去不復還 Another place: 在別處，他寫道： ‘It was an era of dreadful despair…. 「那是個恐怖絕望的時代

I found myself in Silesia, a prisoner of war… 我在西利西亞，是一個戰俘 I was persuaded that I had forgotten everything about music 我覺得我已忘了關於音樂的一切 that I would never again be capable of doing another harmonic analysis 我不會再有機會做和聲分析 that never again in my life would I be able to compose.’ 我此生再也不能作曲。」 ‘Never again.’ 「再也不能」

We always need to remember 我們必須記得 though we knew, you know now rather 雖然我們已經知道，應該是現在知道 that the war would end 戰爭會完結 he did not 他當時並不知道 The ancient fear of what slips into the past 自古以來對歲月流逝的恐懼 the fear that what slips into the past will be lost forever 害怕永遠失去流逝至過往的東西 that ancient fear — ‘never again’ 那種自古以來的恐懼——「再也不能」

So, in this context, it’s hardly surprising 在那個環境，他絕對有可能 if he seeks refuge in something 找一個避難所 he believes will not fade and not die — 一個他相信不會消逝死亡的避難所—— the eternal love of God embodied in Jesus 耶穌所體現的神永恆的愛 This won’t run out 這會源源不絕 And I think the two great movements that Rebecca said 我覺得瑞貝卡說的那兩個精彩樂章——

Are just extraordinarily beautiful: five and eight 第五與第八樂章——極為優美 I see them primarily not as trying to negate something 我覺得它們不是在否定甚麼 but try to affirm something 而是在肯定甚麼 to affirm something that is not going to be 肯定某些事物不會成為 a prisoner of transience, and loss, and death 無常、失去與死亡的俘虜 The consoling peace of these slow ones 這兩個慢樂章撫慰人心的安寧

Would surely be balm in this context that he’s in 在他身處的境況中，定是一種療藥 and even more so in the sense of endlessness 那無盡的感覺更是如此 speaks of God’s undying love in a context of so much dying 那是在充滿死亡之地中，神不死的愛 And no doubt, also, we might add 無疑，我們也可以說 he’s probably also haunted by the cruel monotony of prison camp life 營中那一成不變的生活也困擾著他

In other words, he knows time also as unforgiving 換而言之，他知道時間還有無情的一面 a kind of dehumanizing much 是一種滅絕人性的東西 Day after day, he has been managed, regulated 日復一日受監管、控制 Day after day of impersonal routines 日復一日重複眾人皆同的日常 In the preface to the third movement 在第三樂章的序言中 there he writes of ‘the Abyss of Time, with its weariness and gloom.’ 他寫道：「時間的深淵，陰暗而令人厭倦。」

So here time is experienced as exhausting and grey 在此處，時間是在我們受日常規律壓迫時 when we’re crushed by routine regularities 灰暗且使人倦怠的東西 So in this context, it’s hardly surprising if he is going to 在如此境況下，他絕對有可能 warm to rhythms that don’t, so to speak 喜歡上那種不會把節拍鎖死 lock you into hard predictable patterns of beats 不會讓每一拍都在意料之中的節奏

My suggestion then is that in this context 所以我的意見是，在這種情況下 imprisoned in Silesia, it’s little wonder 被囚西利西亞的梅湘，非常有可能 if he’s going to concentrate on the things about time 專注於有關時間的事物 that do seem to make it dehumanizing 尤其是那些看似會讓時間泯滅人性 transient, and crushing predictability 無常，以及難以預測的東西

But there are plenty of other contexts and other times in this life 但在梅湘的人生中，還有很多其他情況與時光 In other words, we doesn’t seem to be assuming 換而言之，我們不能假定 time is itself the problem, something to be defeated 時間本身是問題，需要打倒 Transience? Yes, and that has, he believes 無常呢？是的。而且他相信 been defeated in the resurrection of Christ 基督復生時戰勝了無常

But not time itself 但不是時間本身 and not change or emotion or dance or agility 也不是變化、情感，舞蹈或靈活的體態 These are good things it seems 這些美好的事物 which in some almost unimaginable way 看似會以一種難以想像的方式 will be taken up in the life of the world to come 納入來生之中

He could actually write in one place: ‘I love time. ‘ 他可能真的在某處寫道：「我喜歡時間。」 I mean he even actually says that 我的意思時他真的有這樣說 And in any case, as many have pointed out 無論如何，正如很多人指出 he misreads his key verse from Revelation: 他誤解了《啟示錄》中那關鍵語句： ‘There will be no more time.’ 「再也沒有時間存在了。」

In fact, this has nothing to do with time being abolished 事實上，這與廢止時間完全無關 The angel is speaking of the final judgment 那天使在談論最後的審判 and he’s telling the church on that day you will have run out of time 那一天，他向教會宣告你時日無多 there will be no more time to repent, no more delay 其時不會再有時間懺悔，不可再拖延

Messiaen did know about that alternative reading, but he dismissed it 梅湘知道這另一解讀，但他置之不理 That’s not what he wanted 那不是他想要的 It’s not what he wanted to hear at the time 那不是他當時想要聽的 It is worth also just underlining here that in the Bible — 這裏需要強調的是，在聖經之中—— which of course he takes with intense seriousness — 當然梅湘對聖經嚴肅以待——

Time is not essentially a bad thing 時間本質上不是壞事 Transience, yes, loss, death, yes 無常是，失去是，死亡是 but not time per se, not change or motion 但時間本身不是，變化與動態也不是 And in some extraordinary way 在信仰上，變化、動態、靈活的體態 the conviction is that change, motion, agility 都會以不尋常的方式 will be taken up in the life of the world to come 納入來生之中

Whatever our own faith, I think we need to be careful 不論我們有何信仰，我想我們都要小心 not to caricature or dismiss Messiaen 不可誇大地諷刺或輕視梅湘 as a naive and world denying escapist 視他為一個天真、否定世界的逃避主義者 longing to flee from this time-bound world 渴望脫離這受時間束縛的世界 into supposedly timeless eternity 逃到沒有時間的永恆 He’s much more sophisticated than that 他的想法比這遠要精深

Much more subtle and much more biblically grounded 遠要微妙，遠要忠於聖經 and of course, much more musically interesting, too 而且當然，音樂上也遠要有趣得多 than that might suggest 比否定時間有過之而無不及 And I think he’s also been perhaps provocative 而且我想他也在引發我們思考 for if in some sense time can be taken into eternity 若果如他常言 as he so often suggests 時間可以帶進永恆

And this change and motion can be taken into eternity 而且這變化與動態可以帶進永恆 that pushes us to ask, could there be a kind of time 這促使我們問，會否有一種時間 in which there is change, but no transience or loss 可以有變化，但沒有無常或失去 in which new things happen, but don’t pass away? 有新事物，但不會消逝？

Perhaps there really is more to this music than meets the ear 可能這首音樂真的有更多弦外之音 Thank you, Daniel 謝謝你，蔡教授 Thank you so much, Jeremy 非常感謝，傑瑞米 That’s really fascinating 這真的很精彩 And it’s great to be able to hear your thoughts 很高興能聽到你講述 on how the music can say so much more 這首音樂如何表達這麼多東西

In a way than what Messiaen lets on 遠比梅湘告訴我們的要多 I think that’s really very fascinating 我覺得這真的很精彩 So now we have a time where we can discuss things together 現在我們可以一起討論 I thought the polite thing to do would be to let the speakers 我想比較禮貌的做法是先讓兩位嘉賓 ask each other some questions first 互相提問

So Rebecca, I was just wondering 先問一下瑞貝卡 do you have anything you want to ask Jeremy from that talk? 聽完傑瑞米的演講你有沒有甚麼想要問他？ Jeremy, thank you so much 傑瑞米，非常感謝你的演講 That was absolutely beautiful 真的是雋妙絕倫 So poetic and just so articulate 既有詩意又清晰 and your research and your knowledge are just so compelling 你的研究和學問都非常令人信服

I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about… 我想問你可否多講一點關於…… You mentioned the alternative reading regarding the angel statement 你提到那天使的宣告有另一種解讀方式 and what Messiaen actually believes 而梅湘實際上又是如何解讀 Because I found that really fascinating 我覺得那真的很有趣 As you rightly said, he’s using that verse as a jumping-off point 你說得對，他用那句經文作為跳板

With this Book of Revelation, as Daniel was saying 這本《啟示錄》，如蔡教授所說 and he reads it and says that 梅湘看了，然後說： ‘my goodness, there’ll be no more time.’ 「我的天，此後沒有時間了。」 And he’s experienced time really, understandably 不難理解，他真的對時間 in very negative ways 有非常負面的觀感 So he jumps on that 所以他借題發揮

Now, I think I need to check the precise wording very carefully 我想我需要非常謹慎地查證確切的措辭 but it’s an angel who’s saying…. 但那是一個天使在說…… He’s talking about the final judgment 他在談及最後的審判 And he’s saying there will come a time, ‘a time’ 他在說終有一個時間，「一個時間」 when there will be no more time to change 你會沒有時間再作改變

No more time to repent, when the judgment will come 沒有時間懺悔，審判會來臨 And there won’t be any delay then 其時不會有任何延遲 What the whole Book of Revelation is saying, among other things 整本《啟示錄》說的其中一件事 is that God is delaying His judgment 是神在延遲祂的審判 You think He’s doing nothing? 你以爲祂甚麼也沒做嗎？

In fact, He is, and He’s delaying His judgment 事實上，祂有做，祂在延遲審判 but there will be a point at which that will run out 但終有一天寬限期會結束 So the translation was made ‘time will run out.’ 所以翻譯是「時日無多」 But it doesn’t mean the abolition of time 但那不是指將時間 as a dimension of the created world 作為世界的其中一個維度廢除

That’s reading too much into it, I think 那是過分解讀，我想 May I ask you a question 我可否問你一個問題 Sure 當然可以 When you perform this work, Rebecca… 瑞貝卡，當你演奏這首作品時…… I’m sorry, on the Revelation thing, on the interpretation of that 不好意思，關於《啟示錄》的解讀 I think the majority of commentators will say that 我想大部分釋經者都會這樣說

I haven’t found one who said anything 我未曾見過有人 in the way Messiaen understands it yet 以梅湘的方式理解那段經文 I mean, maybe there is someone out there 我的意思是，可能有人如此理解 But Messiaen knew about that 但梅湘是知道的 He knew about another way of understanding that 他知道有別的理解方式 but it is not what he wanted at the time 但那不是他當時想要的

It’s not what struck him 那不是打動他的詮釋 He’s reading this version, and it jumped out at him 他看到這個版本的解讀而這震撼了他 Now what. The question I’d like you… 接下來該‧‧‧‧‧‧我剛才想問的是 You played this piece often 你經常吹奏此曲 How conscious are you of all this history when you perform it? 當你演奏時，有多意識著它的歷史？

Or is it so demanding as it is that you tend to think 還是說樂曲艱難到你會想： ‘Oh heck, I’ve just got to get the 「天，我要把這 forgettable rhythms right 容易忘記的節奏吹正確 And I’ve just got to get that F sharp in tune 還有那個升F不能走調 The pianist messed this up in rehearsal 鋼琴家在排練時把這裏搞砸了

So I just gotta get it together with them.’ 所我要與他們一起把這裏練好。」 You’ve spent all these many years 你花了這許多年 It’s an extraordinary context you know about 去暸解這個非比尋常的歷史背景 and into this you make your performance 然後你帶著這些知識去演奏 What’s it like? 那是甚麼感覺？ That’s a good question 這是一個好問題 You’re absolutely right that the piece is just so demanding 你說得很對，這首作品難度甚高

It takes so much rehearsal 需要很多排練 and during a lot of these rehearsals 其中很多時候 I just so focused on playing the right rhythm 我都只注意要吹出正確的節奏 playing the right notes, playing in tune 吹出正確的音，不要跑調 playing both beautiful and ferociously 要吹奏得既優美又激烈 with a good sound, with an ugly sound 用好的聲音，用難聽的聲音 just trying to do everything 只忙著作諸般嘗試

But in the performance 但在演奏時 I would say in the performance of it 我會說，在演奏此曲時 when I’m sitting back 當我安坐下來 and listening to the violinist play the eighth movement 聽小提琴手拉奏第八樂章 or the cellist play the fifth movement 抑或聽大提琴手拉奏第五樂章時 I sit back in my chair 我安坐在椅上

And I am just so struck by the beauty of these movements 這些優美的樂章會深深打動我 that I am just even more in awe of the circumstances 讓我更驚嘆於他們演奏這樂曲時的 under which they played 各種情形 because how Messiaen…. 因為梅湘…… I’m just so struck by how he could have maintained 讓我震撼的是，他在那般惡劣的環境下 his faith in such terrible circumstances 也可以堅守信仰

And how he and his fellow musicians could have played 還有他與他的樂手同伴能夠 such difficult music on…. 演奏這麽難的音樂⋯⋯ Even though Pasquier did have all four of his strings, it was still…. 就算帕斯奇耶的四條琴弦全在，那也是…… They were playing inadequate instruments 他們的樂器不佳 and the piece is so challenging 作品卻難度甚高 So, I would say, when I’m practicing the piece 所以我會說，當我練習這首作品

And when I’m rehearsing it 還有排練時 I’m pretty caught up in those things 我會很專注於那些技巧上的東西 But when I’m sitting back in my chair 但在演奏時 at the performance and listening to those 當我安坐椅中 beautiful fifth and eighth movements 聆聽那優美的第五與第八樂章時 that is when I can just remember the extraordinary 我就會記得 circumstances under which this was composed 梅湘創作音樂時的異常境況

And just really appreciate the sheer beauty of the piece 然後真的去欣賞這此曲純粹的美 That’s a terrific answer 這是個很棒的答案 So it’s like the music now speaks back to you, as it were 這像是音樂在回應你 You haven’t produced it, or others have produced it 你沒有在吹奏它，或者其他人在演奏它 Now it kind of speaks to wonderful things 現在它向你訴說美妙的事

And many performers would say that 很多演奏者會這樣說 many performers would say that as well 很多演奏者也會這樣說 I’ve only played the slow movements on their own, actually, myself 我自己其實只彈奏過那兩個慢樂章 And I’m still thinking of tempo and how to sustain 我還在思考速度問題 these extraordinary slow speeds that he asks 還有如何維持梅湘要求的極慢速度

But yes, it’s very hard not at the same time 不過是的，我們很難 to be overwhelmed by how moving it is 不感動得無以復加 and to remember the circumstances 同時記起這些聲音—— in which these sounds, perhaps very crudely done 可能演奏得很粗糙 but these sounds first emerged into the world ——但這些聲音第一次來到世上的情況 Right, and also the sheer exhaustion of playing this piece 對，還有此曲真的讓人殫精竭慮

It lasts fifty minutes 它長五十分鐘 It is absolutely, just physically, intellectually, emotionally 它會完全耗盡你的體力、智力和心神 just very wearing, and to imagine 想像一下 how exhausting it must have been at the premiere 首演時樂手該有多疲憊 when they were hungry, they barely got anything to eat 他們飢腸轆轆，只有一丁點東西吃 it was freezing cold, with primitive heaters 天氣冷得刺骨，只有幾個原始暖爐 their fingers were freezing 他們的手指凍僵了

It’s just staggering 真的很令人震驚 On your point about the impression Messiaen made on these people 你提及過梅湘給這些人的印象 that was echoed by a well-known composer here in Britain 英國一位著名作曲家也有同感 called Alexander Goehr — 他叫阿歷山大‧郭爾 Daniel will remember him 蔡教授會記得他 —who was a pupil of Messiaen 他是梅湘的學生

In Paris, I said, ‘What was it like sort of with him?’ 在巴黎時，我問他：「你跟他相處時感覺如何？」 Just to kind of reflect on his experience of these 他認真地回想說： he said, ‘Well, all this stuff about colours and bird 「嗯，那些關於顏色與雀鳥的東西 we sort of giggled a bit behind his back 我們會在背後小小的取笑他 But we were overwhelmed by his humility.’ 不過我們都非常欽佩他的謙虛」 Yes 是的

He had this extraordinary power and lack of vanity 他有超凡力量而不自大 and all these things that made an impression on us all 這些全都給我們所有人一個印象 as kind of hypo-vain and hyper-ambitious composer 他是個為人過謙而志向過高的作曲家 And I get rather nice 我說了很多好話 and Goehr is certainly no believer, not a religious person anyway 還有郭爾肯定不是信徒，反正就是沒有宗教信仰

I thought it was a very interesting reflection 我覺得那是個很有趣的評價 the same sort of… 一樣的…… The impression of this personality, obviously, was a… 梅湘給人的印象明顯是…… That is…yes 那是……對 I didn’t mention it today, but in my book 我剛才沒有說，但在我的書中 in my interviews with Pasquier 在我訪問帕斯奇耶時 he mentioned how kind and humble Messiaen was 他提過梅湘有多友善和謙虛

And how open minded he was in spite of being so religious 雖然有強烈的宗教信仰，思想卻十分開明 because that isn’t always the case 因為對十分虔誠的人 when someone is extremely religious that they’re also very open minded 不會經常同時有開明的思想 And Pasquier just touched on that fact 帕斯奇耶有談到說 that Messiaen was just so humble 梅湘非常謙虛 with whomever he came in contact with 對所有接觸他的人都一樣

Was so respectful of all the great composers before him 也很尊敬過去所有偉大的作曲家 Right, no, thank you 對，不，謝謝 I was just wondering about the effect of this piece on people 我在想這首作品對人們的影響 because you’re describing the effect of this Quartet 因為你在形容這首四重奏的影響 and I often relate Messiaen’s Quartet 而我經常將梅湘的《四重奏》

To T. S. Eliot’s Four Quartets as an art form 與艾略特的《四首四重奏》並論 that seems also to have a huge effect on people’s lives 同為藝術作品，兩者都對人們的生活有巨大影響 So I’m just wondering, particularly Rebecca 所以我想問，尤其是瑞貝卡 since you’ve written a whole book on this 因為你專門就此寫了整本書 How does the Quartet affect you? 《四重奏》對你有何影響？

And what drew you into this research in the first place? 當初把你帶進這個研究的是甚麼？ Did the Quartet actually kind of speak to you in some way? 《四重奏》是否對你有某種特殊意義？ I’ll tell you something a little funny 讓我告訴你一件有趣的事 I’ll be completely honest 我會完全坦誠以告 When I was a doctoral student 當我是博士生時

I was trying to think of a topic for my dissertation 我在嘗試找一個可以讓我 that would enable me to live in Paris 住在巴黎的論文題目 because I wanted to apply for a grant to study in Paris 因為我想申請獎學金到巴黎留學 because I had been there before and I just loved Paris 因為我去過那裏，而我很喜歡巴黎

And I attended — I was a student at a summer music festival Sarasota 然後我參加了薩拉索塔的夏季音樂節——我當時是學生 and I heard this piece 我聽到了這首作品 and it just spoke to me and I fell in love with it 它吸引了我，我愛上了它 And I was very lucky because I had a friend 我很幸運，因為我有一個朋友 who happen to be the French tutor 他剛巧是

Of the great American conductor Kent Nagano 美國大指揮家長野健的法語老師 who is now conductor of the Montreal Symphony 長野健現在是蒙特利爾交響樂團的指揮 but at the time, was the conductor 但在當時 of the Lyon Opera Orchestra and the Berkeley Symphony 他是里昂國家歌劇院管弦樂團還有柏克萊交響樂團的指揮 near where I grew up in San Francisco 那是在三藩市，在我長大的地方附近 And he was a great Messiaen specialist 他是一個出色的梅湘專家

And so, through his French tutor 透過他的法語老師 I was able to get the address of Yvonne Loriod 我拿到了依馮‧蘿希歐的地址 And so I corresponded with her and arranged my initial interview 然後我寫信給她，安排了我的初次訪問 She was my first contact 她是我第一個聯絡的人 and then kind of one thing sort of led to another 然後一來二去就做起了研究 And originally, I had just…. 原本我只是……

As I said, I’m not a theorist 我說過，我不是樂理家 I’m not a musicologist 也不是音樂學家 Originally, I had planned on approaching the study 原本我打算以一個演奏家的角度 of this piece from the point of view of a performer 去研究這首作品 But after meeting Pasquier, Le Boulaire, and the Akoka family 但見過帕斯奇耶、勒布雷還有阿科卡的家人後 I just said to myself: 我跟自己說：

‘Who cares about the performance of the piece 「誰要管這曲子該怎麼演奏 These people are so fascinating. I would just rather write about them 這些人這麼有趣。我倒不如寫他們的事 because their lives are just so intriguing.’ 因為他們的人生太奇妙了。」 So it changed 所以我的研究方向改變了 Initially, I was drawn to the performance of the piece 起初我是對作品的演奏有興趣

And then after I did all my research and my interviews 在我做完了所有研究與訪問後 I changed the scope 我改變了研究範疇 because I thought it was a fascinating story 因為我覺得那是個非常有趣的故事 and I thought it would be something that could be 而且就算不是樂手或專業人士 accessible to the lay person as well as to the musician 也能理解

And that’s what I did when I revised my book 那正是我修改書稿時的目標 I made a lot of changes to make it more accessible to the lay person 我作了許多改動，讓非專業人士更容易明白 because, of course, when you’re a music student 因為，當然，當你是音樂學生時 there are a lot of technical things that you have to say 你需要說很多技術上的事

That you can’t if you’re speaking to a wider audience 但面向廣大讀者就不能如此 So the piece of music basically said: 所以這首音樂基本上說： ‘Come to Paris with me.’ 「跟我來巴黎吧。」 But that’s very interesting 但那很有趣 because obviously you met all these people 因為你顯然見過這些人 Is there anything that you were very surprised by 在訪問中，他們有沒有透露甚麼

Real revelation that came from the interviews 讓你驚訝的事 with both the violinist and the cellist in particular? 尤其是小提琴和大提琴手？ Well, I really felt like when I was doing this research 我覺得我在做這個研究時 I felt like a musical detective 自己就像一個音樂偵探 I felt like I was sort of searching for clues 彷彿在搜尋線索

And one thing kind of led to another 事情一環扣一環 and then I was discovering this musical mystery 然後我就在探索這宗音樂謎案 but I think I just was so struck by how unusual that story is 但我覺得這個奇異的故事實在太令我震撼 the fact that the violinist became an actor 小提琴手成為了演員 a pretty accomplished one 頗為成功的演員

And the fact that the clarinetist escaped from the camp 單簧管手逃離了戰俘營 And his whole family 還有他全家 he was one of six brothers and sisters 他是六兄弟姊妹之一 Many of them were imprisoned or hid in the resistance 他們大都被囚禁，或者躲在反抗組織 And their family has just been wonderful to me 他們的家人對我很好

They’ve treated me like one of their family 把我當成他們家的一分子 And so, the research of this piece was not 所以研究這首作品 just a research project or a book 不只是一個項目或一本書 It really became a part of my life 那真的成為了我人生的一部分 because I still go back to France 因為我仍會回到法國

And meet with members of the Akoka family 與阿科卡的家人見面 Unfortunately, most of the other people I interviewed 很遺憾，我訪問過的其他人 have since passed away 現在大都已經離世 but it’s a part of my life that remains active 但那仍是我生命的一部分 It didn’t just die with the publication of the book 沒有隨著書的出版而消逝 I still correspond with these people 我仍會寫信給這些人

And they’re still a part of my life 而他們仍是我生命的一部分 It seems to me that all these people 在我看來，這些人都好像 were sort of woven together almost providentially 在機緣巧合之下 into some sort of a miraculous event 聚首於某種奇異事件之中 very different people, but every one of them founded actually 非常不同的人，但每一個人都經歷了 a transcendental moment in their lives 人生中的超然時刻

Jeremy, I was thinking about the sort of the Catholicism in this piece 傑瑞米，我在想關於這首作品的天主教色彩 because in a way it’s a very Catholic piece 因為這是一首很天主教的作品 You couldn’t really imagine this 你很難想像 from a Protestant hand, could you? 它出於新教徒之手，是吧？

Do you think this has full of a kind of Catholic textual aesthetic in it? 你會否覺得它充滿了某種天主教文本美學？ I don’t quite get that, Daniel, actually. I think… 我不是很明白你的意思，蔡教授，我想…… Could it have been written by a Protestant? 新教徒有沒有可能寫出這首作品？ That’s an interesting question 這是個有趣的問題 I don’t see it as excessively… 我不覺得它非常……

What do you see is distinctively Catholic about it? 你覺得它哪方面特別有天主教色彩 Well, I mean the way in which he’s able to be so eclectic 我是指梅湘的兼收並蓄 I always see Catholicism as something to be 我一直覺得天主教是個 pulls in a lot of cultures, right? 納入了很多文化的宗教，對吧？ It’s less sort of self-purifying, in a way 它某程度上較少自我淨化

So this is a composer who has a huge cosmic view 所以他是一個對文化、人文、宇宙 of culture, of humanity, of the universe, right? 都有宏大觀點的作曲家，對吧？ The love of birdsong, all that kind of stuff 喜歡鳥啼，諸如此類 would be kind of foreign to a kind of more Protestant feel you like 似乎都不屬於那種比較新教的感覺

So it has that quality, that kind of rich 它有那種特質，那種豐富的 Baroque, lush, very colourful… 巴洛克的、茂盛的、色彩斑斕的…… I see 明白了 I have to be careful of what I say here 這裏我要謹慎發言 I would say it depends on the kind of Catholicism you’re talking about 我認為那要看你是指哪一種天主教派 Because there’re other forms of Catholicism at are extremely narrow 因為天主教有其他非常狹隘的宗派

They’ll be quite… Messiaen’s…quite suspect 他們可能會質疑梅湘 And likewise, there’s plenty of Protestantism 同樣，新教也有很多宗派 particularly in the 19th century and the early 20th 尤其是十九世紀與二十世紀初 which would be similarly almost excessively generous 一樣幾乎是過度寬容 Eclectic is probably a better way of putting it 兼收並蓄或許是一個比較好的形容 I think he’s not over-worried 我想他不會過分擔心

By the origin of some of the material he uses 他某些音樂素材的發源地 Right 對 Maybe that’s very… 可能那非常…… As far as I can tell, Hindu, chants and all of these… 以我所知，印度教音樂、聖歌，凡此種種…… Not that he suddenly turned into Hindu 他不是突然就變成印度教徒 because he says, ‘Hey, they’ve discovered something here 因為他說：「他們發現了一些東西

That I can incorporate into this vast vision.’ 我可以將此融入這個龐大的構思中。」 As far as this particular piece is concerned 以這首作品來看 I’m not sure that it’s, it’s quite… 我不確定它是否…… Of course, it’s eclectic, I suppose, in terms of rhythms and sound 當然它是兼收並蓄的，我想，尤其是從節奏和聲音來看 but in quite that sense 但說到神學思想 I don’t think it’s theologically eclectic, quite 我不太認為它兼收並蓄

But I must think about that 但我須要思考此事 There’re other things that very much were obviously Catholic 這首作品有其他地方顯然受天主教影響 But the immortality of Jesus, eternity of Jesus 不過耶穌的不朽、耶穌的永恆 this is all very standard 這些都非常普遍 Yes 對 The biblical stuff 那些聖經裏的東西 Interesting question. Interesting 很有趣的問題，很有趣

But it’s interesting too that he draws in those slow movements 但還有一件有趣的事，他把我們一直在談論的那兩個慢樂章 that we have been talking about 加入作品之中 They were actually pieces that are brought in to the Quartet, right? 它們其實是被納入這首四重奏的，對吧？ They were composed earlier 它們是較早前的作品 And so they’re not really from Revelation 所以它們不是真的源自《啟示錄》 They’re really from the Gospel of John 它們其實源自《約翰福音》

I’m just curious, why you think he would bring those that 我很好奇，你覺得他除了 into this particular piece apart from 想要小提琴獨奏和大提琴獨奏的樂章 having a solo for the violin and a solo for the cello 還有甚麼原因要把它們納入此曲 I think because they both speak in their own way 我想因為它們都各有特色地表達 of the warmth, the reliability 天主的愛

And endlessness of the love of God 那種溫暖、可靠與無盡 And he wants that to be heard in the midst of all this 而他想聽眾在曲中聽到這些 so that eternity is not just about the absence of something 這樣永恆就不只是關於沒有某種東西 it’s about the presence of a reality that will not die 而是關於有某種不滅的現實存在

And he heard in…and in the musical notes 而且他在樂音之中聽到…… even before he wrote the Quartet of these pieces 甚至在寫這四重奏之前 he heard something of that 他已聽到那些東西 He heard something of that warmth 他聽到那種溫暖 and that beauty… kind of sound that doesn’t press you 那種沒有壓迫感 doesn’t strike you 沒有攻擊性的美

So to speak, it’s… I think it’s about… 可以說，我想那是關於…… I can’t quite got the word 我不知道該如何言喻 but reliability, the endlessness of the warmth of the love of God 但天主的愛，那種可靠、無盡與溫暖 That’s why he talks particularly about reverence and love 這是為何他要特別提及崇敬與愛 He says a lot about love elsewhere 他在別處經常談及愛 And you mentioned John’s gospel 而你提及到《約翰福音》

Yes, he’s very much the musician of John’s gospel 是的，他是《約翰福音》和 and the Book of Revelation 《啟示錄》的音樂家 In other words, if they were both written by John 換而言之，如果兩者都是約翰寫的 then that’s not surprising 那也就不足為奇 Yes, and I love the way Jeremy talked about 對，我喜歡傑瑞米 how his musical technique, his language 談論梅湘的音樂技巧和語言的方式

Which he also likes to write about 梅湘也喜歡寫這些東西 In many ways, he’s far more complicated in his expression of time 在很多方面，他表現時間的方式 than in some of his own statements particularly in this Quartet 比他一些論述複雜得多，尤其是在這首四重奏中 And I wanted to ask Rebecca, whether, in a way 我想問一下瑞貝卡

Messiaen spent a lot of his time in prison 梅湘在營中是否用許多時間 working on his theory of music 建構他的音樂理論 because he wasn’t just composing the Quartet for the End of Time 因為他不只是在創作《時間終結四重奏》 but actually, I think he was… 我想其實他也在…… Wasn’t he locked away in a latrine or something 他被獨自關進了一個坑廁或甚麼房間

So that he could compose in peace? 這樣他就可以不受干擾地作曲，對吧？ And he must have spent a lot of time just thinking about 他一定花了很多時間只思考 ‘How do I write a piece that somehow has to talk about the end of time 「我要怎樣寫一首作品，在充滿時間的音樂中 in music that obviously is full of time’, right? 表現時間的終結」，對吧？

And then, I think, just a few years later 然後，我記得，短短數年之後 he comes up with this treatise 他出版了一部論著 on his musical language and his techniques 討論他的音樂語言和技巧 And but even in the Quartet itself 但就算只論《四重奏》本身 the preface before you see the score 他也已經在樂譜的序言中 he’s already talking about ‘this is my technique.’ 談論「這是我的作曲技巧」

So he must have been, in prison, working on theory 所以他在營中一定有鑽研理論 not just on composing 而不只是作曲 That’s right 對 I think you’re absolutely right 是的，我覺得你說得一點也沒錯 Yes, his treatise on rhythm is very important 對，他的節奏論著非常重要 And so he must have been working on that as well 而他肯定也一直有在構寫這個論著

I didn’t have the good fortune to interview Messiaen 我無緣訪問梅湘 His death was kind of my inspiration 他的去世有點激發了我 because he died in 1992 因為他在1992年逝世 and that’s when I became interested in the piece 這正是我對這作品產生興趣的時候 But from what I’ve read, he was working 但就我所讀到 on his ideas about rhythm for quite some time 他的節奏理論構思已久

Right, because the… 對，因為…… Sorry, Jeremy 不好意思，傑瑞米 So just to say, in fact I’ve never really 只是想說，我之前其實從未 thought about that properly before 真正思考過此事 You’re dead right 你說得非常對 that there is something extraordinary about 這真的是非比尋常 in these extreme circumstances 他竟可在這般惡劣的環境 he should worry about things that many would 憂心那些很多人都會覺得

Regard as fairly abstruse and over-theoretical 艱澀難懂且過於理論的東西 I think it’s a fascinating, it’s… 我覺得那是一件不可思議……那是 It’s a fascinating thing 那是一件不可思議的事 It’s like he’s trying to work out something 他像是在一個很惡劣的情況下 in a very extreme situation 嘗試想出甚麼 As you said, he felt free 如你所說，他覺得自己是自由的 he was not a prisoner in prison, as it were — 彷彿不是一個俘虜在戰俘營中——

That’s right 對 — thinking about these things, right? ——思考這些事情，對吧 And all these sorts of more circular concepts 還有思考所有這些，你可以說是 if you like, of rhythmic composition, which is fascinating 節奏構成的循環概念，真的很不可思議 We have a question here for you, Jeremy 傑瑞米，有觀眾想問你一個問題 about timelessness, so it sort of fits in 那是關於時間消失，所以算是貼題

‘Could you say a little bit more about timelessness 「你可否多講一點關於時間消失 for Messiaen and for Christianity in general? 對梅湘與基督宗教整體的意義？ This is fascinating 這非常有趣 I thought time is something essential to being human 我一直覺得時間是人類不可或缺的一部分 and wonder what life would be like without it 想知道沒有時間的生命會是如何 It’s hard to imagine.’ 這很難想像。」 Stepping into Messiaen’s biblical Catholicism 從梅湘的天主教聖經本位主義來看

I think what he’s saying is 我想他是在說 and what the tradition would largely say 而傳統教義大多會說 is that time, the fact that things take time 時間——事物歷時而然—— to be what they are, is not a bad thing 不是壞事 so that time is not the thing to be escaped 所以我們不用逃離時間

That time is a dimension of the created world 時間是受造世界的一部分 clearly and certainly a dimension of being human 顯然肯定是生而為人的一部分 As you rightly say, hard to imagine what life will be like without it 你說得對，很難想像沒有時間的生命會如何 In fact, how could we talk about life or liveliness 事實上，若沒有類似時間的東西 without something akin to time 我們如何能談論生命或生機

So that’s the way I think he’s viewing it 所以我認為他是那麼看的 It becomes more complex 那變得更複雜 if you’re thinking about the afterlife, the life of the world to come 如果你在想死後生命，來世的生命 What I’m suggesting is there’s nothing in his music 我所提出的是，他的音樂和文章

And in what he writes to suggest that a model of it 都沒有指出，來世的道法 is the negation of everything to do with time 是消除與時間有關的一切 like change and movement, emotion, whatever 像變化、動作、情感，甚麼也好 It’s too simple. It’s just not like that 這太簡單，事實並非如此 Eternal life is, first of all, the eternal life of God 永恆的生命，首先，是神永恆的生命

And that’s lively, in some sense 那是充滿生氣的 and to take part in that means 要參與其中，在某種意義上 in some sense, liveliness 就是要生氣蓬勃 And although it splits our mind open to think about it 雖然要腦洞炸裂才能想像得到 I think what he’s pushing for 但我想，梅湘所提倡的觀點 and certainly what the Bible is pushing for 還有可以肯定，聖經所提倡的觀點是

Is the idea of time as healed, time as redeemed 時間是受治愈的，是受救贖的 a kind of time in that great picture 在運行這種時間的世界裏 of running and not growing weary 奔跑不會力竭 doing something very energetic and not getting tired 做劇烈活動不會疲累 There you’ve got motion 那裏有動態 but you haven’t got loss, transience, death 但不會有失去、無常、死亡

And I think it’s that kind of time 我想他預計未來看到的 that he’s visiting in the future 是那種時間 Very carefully, and always we oversimplify it 要非常小心，我們經常把這問題想得太簡單 very easy to think of eternity and time 很容易就把永恆與時間 as polar opposites kicking against each other 當成水火不容的兩極 He is saying that it’s not as simple as that 他在說事情並非如此簡單

Eternity has a life of its own 永恆有自己的生命 and can some way take even time into that life 甚至能以某種方式將時間帶入那生命 and redeem it from loss 從失去中將之救贖 Let me make it more complex for you, and maybe for Rebecca 讓我替你把它弄得更複雜，還有替瑞貝卡 Because it strikes me that Messiaen in a way 因為我很詫異，某方面來說 is just being paradoxical here 梅湘是在自相矛盾

He talked about the end of time 他在討論時間終結 and he’s writing a piece of music 而他在寫一首音樂 So my question really is 所以我真正的問題是 whether Messiaen is really saying that music has 梅湘是否其實在說 a way of articulating time theologically 音樂能以某種方式表現神學上的時間 thinking of this, that only music can do it in this way 他在想，只有音樂能如此做

Yup, and I think he’s right 沒錯，而我覺得他是對的 This is same with silence 這與寂靜一樣 He says the first movement is about silence, right? 他說第一樂章是關於寂靜，對吧 It’s not very silent to me, right? 它沒有很寂靜，對吧？ And I think, again, Jean Lanier, the violinist, also said 同樣，我記得拉尼耶，那個小提琴手也說過 by the time you get to the last moment 當你聽到最後一個樂章

It’s just the silence of heaven 那正是天國的寂靜 but obviously it’s music 但那顯然是音樂 He must be making some comment about the nature of music 他一定是在評論音樂的本質 and articulating another type of time or silence 以及表現另一種時間或寂靜 You said it, Daniel. You said it 正是如此，蔡教授，正是如此 I think he would say…I got it 我想他會說……我剛剛還記得的

It’s so presumptuous to say that, you know, ‘he would say’ 說「他會說」太冒昧 I get the impression from a lot of 我從他許多發言還有著作中 what he’s not only saying but writing 得到一個印象 that he would say music can evoke — 就是他會說音樂可以令人聯想到—— It can’t replicate, but evoke — gesture towards a kind of time 不可以重現，只能令人聯想——某種時間的姿態：

In which past, present and future fold into each other 過去、現在與未來互相交疊 A time that doesn’t involve 這種時間不會 fragmentation of past, present and future — 分裂為過去、現在與未來—— the ever receding past, the future we can’t touch 不斷遠離的過去，捉摸不到的未來 I think he thinks music can give you 我想他覺得音樂可以給你 a hint, a taste, a gesture 一個提示，一個味道，一個姿態

Towards living in a kind of time that is fulfilling 告訴你有一種時間，生活在其中會很充實 that doesn’t involve these negative things that I was talking about 不會有我所說的這些負面事物 but he’s forever wrestling 但他永遠在對抗一個難題 You see he doesn’t want it to be pure stillness 他不想時間純然靜止 but he doesn’t want it to be kind of pounding drivenness 但也不想它砰砰猛衝

He wants something in between 他想折中 a kind of enriching form of time 想要一種有豐富形式的時間 And actually, to come back to Rebecca’s thing about humility 其實，回到瑞貝卡那關於謙虛的討論 I just wonder if his own life, his own way with people 我想知道他的人生，他的待人之道 suggested a kind of trust and a kind of patience 是否顯示一種信任和耐心

And not having to force things? 且無需強求的態度？ Isn’t that an example of someone living 那不是正一個例子，說明有人可以 so to speak, peaceably with and in time 活在時間之中，與之和平共處 rather than always fighting against it? 而不是總與之對抗嗎？ Just a crazy reflection, but I’ll leave that with you 這只是一個瘋狂的想法，但我會交給你評論 Right 對 I think that’s absolutely so true 我想那一點也沒錯

I was struck when I was doing this research 我在做這個研究時 by the differences between these four principal musicians 覺得十分詫異，這四個主要樂手竟如此不同 Here was Messiaen, the devout Catholic 梅湘是虔誠的天主教徒 then you had Akoka, the Trotskyist secular Jew 阿科卡是個信奉托洛斯基主義的非宗教猶太人 then you had Pasquier, the agnostic 然後帕斯奇耶是個不可知論者 and you have Le Boulaire, the atheist 勒布雷則是個無神論者

And yet all these men got along wonderfully 但他們全都能融洽共處 Very interesting 非常有趣 And it’s just a beautiful story 這是一個很美好的故事 and just shows how tolerant they all were of each other 告訴你他們都有多包容對方 It was interesting I think you mentioned, Rebecca 瑞貝卡，你在書中提到的巴黎首演 in your book the Paris premiere — 我覺得那很有趣

So this is outside the prison — 那是在戰俘營外面 that one of the critics didn’t like the sort of 一個樂評家不喜歡 what he regarded as Messiaen’s very naive 梅湘在演奏前講解作品 Catholic pontifications in explaining the music beforehand 覺得那是幼稚的天主教式說教 And then the question really here is about 然後我真正想問的是

How this music then can be understood — 那我們該如何理解這首音樂—— going back to your comment just now 回到你剛才的評論 — whether you need the Catholic trappings ——某程度上，你是否需要認識天主教 as it were, to really get it 去暸解這首作品 or maybe you can just either bracket it off 抑或你可以無視它 or maybe in a strange way 又或者像你說

As you were saying about the other musicians 其他有不同信仰的樂手 with other beliefs, somehow 他們全都以一種奇異的方式 they all entered into this Christian world as well 不知怎的也進了入這個基督世界 but without necessarily having to believe in it 但他們不需要信奉天主教 as it were, but somehow it brought something of that to them 這音樂似乎將這信仰的某種東西帶給了他們 That’s absolutely correct 那一點也沒錯

I’m struck by the beauty and the terror of this music 這音樂的優美與恐怖震撼了我 I think the reason it’s so powerful is that you can be religious 我想它之所以如此強大，是因為無論你有宗教信仰 or you can be an atheist, and yet this music still speaks to you 或是無神論者，這音樂都能引起共鳴 You don’t have to be Catholic 你不需要是天主教徒

To appreciate the Quartet for the End of Time 也能欣賞《時間終結四重奏》 You don’t need to know anything about the Bible 你不需要任何關於《聖經》的知識 to appreciate this piece 也能欣賞這首作品 because the music itself 因為這音樂本身 even if you just divorce it from the religious context 就算你將它抽離其宗教背景 is so compelling 也十分扣人心弦

And yet when you think about the religious context 不過當你想到它首演時的 in the historical context in which it was premiered 歷史環境下的宗教背景 it’s earth shattering, really 那真的震驚世界 Almost coming to the end of time for this lecture 這個講座的時間也快要終結 but…there’s something that maybe we can reflect on a little bit 但我……有一件事或許我們可以思考一下

Which is about Messiaen’s own narrative 那是關於梅湘自己的敍述 because it seems to me that he’s alluding 因為在我看來他好像在 to something like the feeding of the 5000 暗示餵飽五千人的神蹟 So he imagined there’re 5000 people, right? 他想像那裏有五千人，對吧？ And he has this cello that has only three strings 然後他有這把只有三根弦的大提琴

So it’s like only five loaves and two fish, as it were 所以那好像只有五餅二魚 That’s all that there is 此外再無其他 And yet, this miracle happens in this prison camp 可是，戰俘營中出現了這奇蹟 And he’s ‘messianic’ in this sense 這音樂能以某種方式餵飽五千人 that somehow the music is able to feed 5000 people 在這個意義上，他很有「彌賽亞精神」 so in a way 所以在某方面

It’s a kind of a parable if you like 你可以說那是一個寓言 rather than the actual history of what happened in that camp 而不是戰俘營中發生的真實歷史 because it’s quite true from the accounts that Rebecca reports 因為根據瑞貝卡所轉述的其他敘述，頗為真實的是 that the prisoners had no idea what had happened 那些戰俘不知道那音樂發生了何事 but they were totally silent in the process 但他們全程靜默一片

And somehow there had been faith 似是有某種信仰 They didn’t understand it 他們沒有聽懂 The music was beyond them, and yet they were completely respectful 那音樂超乎他們的理解，但他們完全持敬以待 They were just so in awe 他們實在太驚嘆 As I wrote, it’s like Messiaen was leading them all in a musical prayer 如我在書中所言，那像是梅湘在引領他們做音樂禱告 Any final comments, Jeremy? 你最後想說點甚麼嗎，傑瑞米？

No, I think Rebecca puts it well, there 沒有，我覺得瑞貝卡說得很好 I love the language 我喜歡他結尾 of miracle and resurrection towards the end 那奇蹟與復活的文字 I think the other… 我想其他…… I hadn’t thought of it as a kind of feeling 我之前不曾把它當作一種感覺 I mean, just the very sound of compelling music 我的意思是，光是那扣人心弦的樂音響起在那

In such ‘weariness and gloom’ — to use his phrase — ——用他的話——「陰暗而令人厭倦」的環境中 says a great deal 就已訴說很多東西 Thank you very much 非常感謝 We will play some of the first movement 我們會播放第一樂章的部分段落 so that you can actually drift off 這樣你就可以慢慢飄蕩至 into an unmeasured evening or morning or afternoon 一個沒有節拍與時限的傍晚、早上或下午

Depending on where you are 看你在哪裏 But thank you so much, Rebecca and Jeremy 但非常感謝你們，瑞貝卡與傑瑞米 You’ve been amazing and wonderful 你們說的很棒、很精彩 Thank you very much. 非常感謝 Very insightful time 很多精闢見解的時間 Thank you so much 非常感謝 Thank you, everyone 謝謝各位 And thank you from the University of Hong Kong 還有感謝來自香港大學的大家