England Football & Rugby Salaries REVEALED…

This week on the Fozcast, we’ve teamed up with The Rugby Pod for a massive crossover episode featuring Jim Hamilton, Andy Goode, and Dan Biggar! 🏉⚽️

It’s football meets rugby – and nothing’s off-limits. The lads dive into everything from contracts and salaries to the realities of life at the top level. As Big Jim Hamilton says, “it’s a first” – players talking openly about money in international rugby and life with the British & Irish Lions. 💰

We also chat about who the “Messi of Rugby” really is, plus Louis Rees-Zammit’s move to the NFL and why it didn’t quite work out across the pond… 🇺🇸

A brilliant episode packed with honesty, laughs, and stories you’ll only get when two worlds collide.

A Part 2 might just be on the cards… 👀

🎙️ UP THE FOZCAST x THE RUGBY POD 🎙️

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Timestamps:

00:00 Football vs Rugby Wage Comparisons
18:50 How do Bonuses and Agents Work in Rugby/Football?
35:00 Injures in Rugby vs Football
54:50 Who is the Lionel Messi of Rugby?
58:35 Why Louis Rees Zammit Struggled in the NFL
1:05:37 How Popular is other Sports in Football?
1:10:27 How Does a Changing Room Work with Different Nationalities?
1:18:31 Football vs Rugby Stadium Atmospheres

This episode is presented by Shaw. One of the most difficult things to cope with in football is fixture congestion. I remember the games piling on top of each other over the Christmas period. It’s so intense and you have to keep your levels high the whole time. But when you’re feeling the pressure and you want to keep calm and a clean sheet, Shaw’s non-stop protection range of antipersperence is a good start. It has 72-hour non-stop sweat and odor protection that will keep you fresh and dry on and off the pitch. Shop now at Boots. Sure, it won’t let you down. Welcome to the Fuzzcast. Today we are talking all things football versus rugby. Are they the same? Are there any similarities whatsoever? We’re about to find out. Tomasi, you good to go? Yeah, absolutely. We have got some some heavy hitters in the podcasting and the rugby and the football world here. Dan Bigger, Andy Goo, Jeremy Hamilton, yourself, and then the old limbs under 10 player of the season. Still claiming it. Still got the trophies though. Always. Always. Yeah. And Old Lims for your listeners is a rugby club just in case they didn’t know. In case the crossover wasn’t You guys grew up at Barkabuts, right? So we were old Lemitonians not too far uh not too far down the road. Coventry Lemonton. You’re the posh side. Swansea. Swansea. Mumble. Probably mumble. Yeah, the gawa. The ga. We say it on the g, which is halfway posh for for uh for Wales. Yeah. All right. What we starting with, Tom? We’re going to start with um salaries. Football be money. We’re sat in order already. So, well, actually, we need to swap myself around a little bit and we’d be we’d be in in in the right order, I think. I think one interesting thing which we’ve spoke about before when you represented England Ben you didn’t know that you got paid because I remember being at your house in Manchester got to be 20 years ago and a check came through the post from M&S. Yes. And it was like a sponsorship. I think it was like five grand or something. You were like oh that’s a bonus that was a commercial thing but you also get paid. Yeah. So we used to get So it’d be really interesting to find out actually if you actually get paid for England and the Lions as well. Would you get paid for going away with the Lions? Right. So when I first found out you get paid for England, we all got a match fee, but the match fee we waved it. So we all waved it and gave that to charity. All right. But then what we did get paid was a portion of the charity pool. Okay? So all the sponsors, your McDonald’s, Mark and Spencers, all the big boys all go into one big pot and then it gets paid out pro rata per sort of team you’ve been called up to, how many appearances, all that kind of stuff. And you’d get paid. And as the years have gone by, they’ve actually got quite lumpy payments as well. So I remember my biggest payment when I was in all of the squads for probably three or four years in a row was I think for a six monthly payment it was about 40 grand and I’m thinking this is all right this so um what’s it like in the rugby world? Let me just start on this and then the lads who have made the big books can talk about it. The fact that you’ve just shared the amount of money you’ve got is completely outside of what our sport does. So what I love about other sports and football specifically is you’re happy to share and it’s in the media you can contrast you can compare and you’re always held to what your value is right so when you move different clubs millions of pounds whatever it was transfer fees what your salary was what your weekly salary was in rugby and I’ve been pushing for this no one really knows it’s a taboo still and I’m and we’re happy to share this will be the first time I’m glad that we’re opening it up so no one out with our kind of peer group which you very rarely shared anyway knew what you were getting paid. You’re guessing. So we could sit here and say Anton Deont the greatest rugby player in the world playing in France and Tuloo is paid a million euros a year. We don’t know that for sure. We’re guessing Owen Farrell is on 750, George Ford is on 700 or whatever it is. So this subject here to straight out the blocks has always been an uncomfortable conversation. Why? Because the the club rugby I guess is a little bit more cloak and dagger, but international level that’s there for everyone to see. No, internationally everyone knows what they get. Um because it’s all the same, isn’t it? For if you’re in the England squad, Wales different, Scotland different, and Ireland different. And they do it in different ways. But if you’re in the England squad, you know what you’re getting. And it’s changed over the years. I mean, when I was playing for England, we were on 10 grand a game. Um and so effectively for football, it’s very different. Your club contract is the be all and end all, right? And then playing for your country, you’re getting you’re not bothered about the payment. Is it fair to say then that playing for your country is is financially massively the pinnacle? Massively like the pinnacle like you say if you’re an England player certain player. Yeah. Certain countries. Yeah. If you’re an England player 100%. Um and that’s where it’s all driven to earn as much as you can by playing international rugby. So players are playing injured and playing with bangs and stuff where you’d pull out of a club game but you do anything to play in an international game because it’s the wrong reversal. Yeah. the financial it is exactly the opposite to footballers and it’s a little bit similar. It’s quite kind of like obviously the richest the richer clubs can pay bigger wages in general like that but then the RFU is a much bigger organization than the WU or the the SRU in terms of Scotland and Wales. So their match fees because of the the revenue that they generate commercial revenue commercial revenue they can go back in and say okay well we can play pay the players let’s just say say 20 grand is what the the figure is sort of being chucked about there 15 20 grand as opposed to seven or eight from a from another point of view but um is it when we we we were based on when we were playing for Wales we went um it was if we were ranked number one to four in the world our match fee would go up. Okay. Yeah. So if but if we were ranked outside the top four. So we we ended up getting in the top four and then going on a run of 14 victories on the spin. So we ended we ended up we ended up for for the 12 or 14 months we played we were we were sort of picking up 14 a game which 14 14 a game. So when you think like for for a small country like Wales that’s you know that that’s a lot of money but you know we were winning grand slams we were winning we were getting to semi-finals of World Cup. So all of a sudden when you bring the revenue in you’re actually sort of paying out pretty much the same as well the sponsors will be aligned to that won’t they? So they’ll be I don’t know Continentalize whoever it is will be upon your ranking in the world they’ll yeah when you’re when you’re playing then and you know you’re earning that sort of money the team knows they’re earning that sort of money. Are you collectively are you thinking about it whilst you’re playing? Is it that just that goes away once you enter the pitch? As soon as you step over the pitch there’s a Yeah, there because like Six Nations there’s win bonuses if you finish first, second, and third. And we um the honest answer is no. I I was never thinking about it when you stepped on the pitch, but we had one meeting. And I always remember one meeting was um we couldn’t win the Six Nations but if we finished second there was like um a big bonus and if we finished fourth we were we were basically either going to finish second or fourth because of other results. So, we put uh we had a team meeting on the Friday night before and we just simply put like two numbers on a piece of paper. Like one was if we finished second and one was if you finished fourth and I clearly that didn’t make any difference when we went on the pitch, but it just Oh, it did. Maybe boys gave an extra 10% at least, but it was like Yeah, boys were just like it was a bit it broke the ice a little bit from the tech, you know, sometimes the meetings can be really like intense and serious and things. just broke it up a little bit and ended up that the more interesting question was how much did you get paid with M&S because I want to compare I’m I’m do I’m doing some I’m doing some bits with M&S at the minute so I we need we need to compare where the where the inflation is at the minute that was about 25 you know that was about 20 years ago some notes off off air yeah yeah we’ll compare notes after yeah I just find it all I just find it all so especially your point about it’s not spoken about in rugby even like player wages like in football you know when you see a figure that a player earns 5060 60 70 grand. Again, it’s not that’s not specific. They don’t know for a fact, but they’re guessing it, but it’s a pretty pretty accurate figure. Most of the time, it’s pretty accurate now because somebody would have told somebody, somebody would have leaked it to somebody. It’s not really spoke about in the changing rooms, what wages you’re on, but we’ve had plenty of times when if there’s a young player coming through or somebody’s done really well and they’re going in for a new contract, they might come to me and say, “What do you think I could ask for? What do you think I should be on?” And I’m saying, “Right, well, what what are you on then?” and they’ll explain and I’ll say, “Right, I’m on this and where are you in the pecking order or the ranking or the importance of our team?” You got to take loads into account like what you could potentially go on to be and all these little things, but then you’ll give them a ballpark figure of what they need to aim for. Yeah, that’s really cool to hear. Uh, and I I say, you know, sport is underpinned by money effectively. Yes, we’re lucky enough to have played and played at the highest level and made a living out of it, but ultimately you want to be rewarded accordingly. And we’ll maybe get into it like the international game of rugby has never been bigger. The club game went through a load of issues or has been going through a load of issues. We lost three teams in the English Premiership in Wasps, Coventry Way for a little bit of their inov uh London Irish and Worcester as well. But a lot of that was around enhanced player salaries, poor commercial deals, low TV deals. And I feel as if like we missed that kind of moment to make FU money. Do you know what I mean? Football had this inception point, didn’t it? I don’t know when it was maybe after late 90s, early 2000s where the TV deal started coming in and you were getting multi-millionaire players coming through into the prem or leaving and going to do whatever. But that’s all that is all driven by TV rights though, right? TV, right? The TV is the big big earner for for football clubs. It’s don’t get me wrong, they want to see um stadiums full and they always do see that in the Premier League, but the big earner is from uh TV rights most first and foremost globally effectively and that’s where rugby isn’t anywhere near it, right? So the Premier League deal in football, every kid around the world wants to watch it in whatever country we’re in. In rugby, you couldn’t tell me many kids outside. That’s where the endorsement commercial ones come as well from though, isn’t it? Obviously with that many eyeballs on it globally like the front of shirt deals, they’re worth millions and millions. It’s changing a bit now because they’re not allowed betting companies on the on the front from next season. But you guys you guys were talking about Jordan Henderson on the pod was it last or about the money that he’s sort of earning in the in or was earning in the Middle East sort of thing. And they were saying like how do you get you know let’s just chuck 400 grand and they were saying well it’s probably not 400 grand a week and things but if it’s say 200 then it’s taxfree and and all those like you you made a good point there good like you’ve sort of cracked the big markets in terms of the the Asian market the the Middle East market and the American market and those are those are markets that rugby just hasn’t broken into properly. Do you think that will come for rugby? Well, we’ve had the World Cup in Japan in 2019 2019. Um, and that was that was a brilliant World Cup and it was went really successfully, but then ultimately it’s kind of like it was just there for like six weeks. Felt like it was huge for six weeks there and it sort of hasn’t dropped off. The World Cup is in 2031 in America supposed to be whether that has a big effect. It’s it’s hard to tell. But the problem is, you know, you guys from a footballing point of view have cracked those big markets and you guys go on another thing which you guys do is from a football is that you go to Korea, you go to um LA, you go to sort of Tokyo on on tour and and things like that and all of a sudden you’ve just generated it’s a global game though, isn’t it? You think that like Hungon in South Korea is is David Beckham and like that’s why he’s not why he’s a very good footballer but you know there’s a method behind him signing for LA. There’s a huge commercial appeal for these clubs trying to sign him. But the the other thing I wanted to ask you was so we did a podcast recently in New York with a a Scottish lad Lewis Morgan who moved from Celtic and he’s now New York and we were chatting and he he said like um and we were saying oh I wonder how much Lewis Morgan’s on kind of thing. And he went it’s there. online for everyone to see like in the MS they print it and it is on a website and because of their salary caps and designated players you can literally go and look on the list and see what people are playing and there was that’s one element which we found super interesting but then look at the Ryder Cup getting to the Lions here in a minute and there was a big hoo-ha this year about should the players be earning for the Ryder Cup and you go well listen the organization the Ryder Cup they are earning significant money and the players are the ones that make it happen which is why I want to ask you about the Lions tour. So, how does the Lion’s kind of money work? Because one, there’s the the the point that you’re playing, but secondly, you’re out away from your family for seven, eight weeks. How long? Yeah. Seven, seven, uh, seven weeks. Seven weeks you’re away. So, I can’t wait for this, by the way, because I have never heard a rugby player share finances. You’re on the spot now. Here we go. How much you getting? 2017 uh we did a tour to New Zealand where that this was precoid so obviously the tours were in full swing the stadiums supporters and the lions were able to sort of sell the brand and go to all these dinners and and everything like that so I think from a players point of view I think we picked up about there was a bonus if we’d have won the series ended up drawing the series and that’s the whole squad get that because other other squads which I’ve been involved with sometimes it’s just the players who are involved starting the starting team or the match day um 23 but it was for the whole group because like you said you’re all away from family for seven weeks you’re all committed etc. So I think we picked up pre-tax I think it was about 65 right I think for the tour for the whole tour. Um but then if you f if you fast forward four years in terms of 2021 which was the co tour where there was no yeah it have been different no spectators no dinners no sponsors no sponsorship activation and all those things. I think we ended up taking home I think it was less than 30, right? Which when you think about it and this will be the point that they come on to is minimum amount of money for what you put your body through. And as well like not just like that co tour was like I mean I’m not looking for any sympathy but it was hard. It was a hard tour. You had you were basically training ground, hotel, airport, everything locked off, everything shut away. So you’re literally just training room training room. Sounds like the dream when you got kids though. Yeah. No, it does sound good. Do you think this um I I actually right it sound this will sound bad for rugby players probably won’t want to hear this but I actually like the fact that the money isn’t crazy in rugby because because you’ve got loads in the bank right people the people who say that are always the ones who’ve got the most money’s not important. You can say that you got 50 mil. What I mean is right you see in football I see you see in the Premier League day in players as soon as they sign that big contract the the hungers goes the fire goes out. That’s it. they do not want to really work for their money anymore. Whereas I see in rugby it doesn’t matter if you’re the highest earning player or the the least you are doing what is required and you have to do it. You have to put your head into that absolute melee of bodies and and you know you’re going to get hurt. Yeah. Do you think if we got to the point where money was big money, you’d have players going, do you know what? Do I need to turn out on Saturday? I’ve got this two-year contract on 30, 40, 50 grand a week. Do I need to really push myself through it? I I think the the big difference between rugby and football, obviously you have sort of five, six, seven year deals, don’t you, in football, and the value is in selling the player to the club, right? So they’re the contract negotiation is all about length of contract and so the player gets safety, the club get a bit of risk around them in football because that player might switch off and then you try to flog him or whatever. But it’s the value of selling the player, isn’t it? We don’t have that in rugby. So rugby, everyone’s a bossman effectively. I’m saying I’m I got I got sold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I did as well, but it’s very rare, isn’t it? So, it’s like 0.01%. Yeah. Yeah. Very much that. So, effectively, you you get a two or a three-year contract. Not many go over threeear contracts, do they? Um, and then you’re basically on trial the whole time, right? Because you maybe that first year, if you’re on a two-year deal, maybe that first six months, you’ve got a bit of leeway, but then the second six months or if you’re on a three-ear deal, the first year, if you don’t do that well, it doesn’t matter. You’re basically always playing for a contract. Oh, you’re always paying for your next contract. You’re always injured as well. Not always. Sorry. There’s a lot more jeopardy. Yeah. So, you play the sport. I know you had your first experience of the game. You know, you’ve been around the game as well, Tom. It’s a tough sport to play. So, you’re always up against Jeopardy and which is your body and getting injured and how your contract is formed. So, when you ask the question just specifically to answer that question, if the money came into the game, would there be a drop off? I think you see that naturally in in humans and athletes anyway. like how you’re made. Well, answering that maybe quite you flagged it earlier, Jim. So, Anton Dupont has just signed a six-year deal on a million pound or million euros a year allegedly. But it’s, you know, he’s not he’s also not going to be on 20 grand a year, is he? So, that’s unheard of. Six years, a million a million pound a year is in football. We’re talking but but this is what so my point now is you Ben Ben asked in terms of like if the if the silly money comes in now for for rugby sixyear deal on a million euros a year is silly money. Yeah. So the comparison there is over the next six years are we going to see Antoine Deont I don’t think he will sort of drop off in terms of his or is he just going to keep going and going because he’s the best in the world one of the best has ever been he obviously deserves the money and the contract he’s getting. So I suppose that’s the comparison and only time will make the safer bets as well. If you know the character of somebody, if you know that they’re good lads, honest, hardworking lads, they just want to do it for different reasons, you ain’t got to worry about it so much. But there’s certain and in football, the minimum, if you’re playing in the Premier League week in week out, you’re on 30, 40, 50 grand a week. The minimum you’ve got League One players on a million pound a year. That’s the difference with with what what generally I think what we used to say is what rugby players earn a year, footballers earn a week. Yeah. As a comparison. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Sometimes when you don’t check before you commit, you can end up in a pickle. It’s a little bit like that time at Rexom where I forgot to pack my boots into the kitman’s skip. When we got to the game, I had to borrow Bentos’s boots, which were a whole size too big for me. And let’s just say it didn’t turn out well for me. Or the time I was at Watford and my friend booked his wedding day on the same date as the FA Cup final. Guess who got to the final that year? It’s best to check before you commit to something. That’s why Capital 1 created Quick Check. With Quick Check, you can check if you’re eligible for a Capital One credit card in just 60 seconds without affecting your credit score. And you’ll always know the APR you’ll get before applying. Credit with no nasty surprises. That’s one good thing. Search Capital One. 34.9% APR representative variable. T’s and C’s apply. How does it work with with football? So you’ll hear um I don’t know Bruno Fernandez on 300 grand a week but often a a large percentage or a good chunk of that is appearance. Maybe there’s a a win bonus. How does it work in in rugby? So with Anton Dupont a million euros bigs. Would that be basic way? Would that be basic? Yeah. Yeah. Uh yes is the bottom line. I I hated and I very I don’t think I’ve signed a contract with bonuses in it because I always felt like that was given too much in in the in the money that we’re speaking in rugby that was given too much power to the club. Yeah. Because I felt like let’s just say it’s an appearance bonus. Let’s just say you’re on 25 appearances. Unless you are an absolute starter in the team and things like that, you could get to 22 appearances by March, April. Yeah. and the club could be thinking, “Oh, well, there’s a there’s a 50k bonus or 20k bonus here. We’ll we’ll maybe rotate the squad or if you need a start bonus and things.” So, I never signed a contract with a bonus in because I always felt like it was a it was too much of a give to the clubs and I always wanted I want to know I want to know what I I want the black and white. I want to know every month I’m coming out with X amount. Yeah, that’s what I want to know. I just took what was on offer. I didn’t have the luxury. Have you got agents though? Like the same obviously in football agents. You see the the stereotypical agent in a you know the guy driving a Rolls-Royce. He’s got a cigar on all the time. The rugby players have agents as well. Right. Yeah. My my first club was Leicester and we had Dean Richards, the famous Dean Richards England British and Irish lines. So old school and he would be annoyed with you as a young lad if you had an agent. Yeah. He’d basically sign the contract for you and say, “Look, there’s 10 grand a year.” And I’m like, “But I’ve been offered 15 grand a year by Rugby Lions and a Ford Escort. I want to sign that. It’s like here’s your 10 grand contract. But there would in the game and it’s only recently where it is started to change like we’ve been archaic in our approach of how a lot of things have been managed that the coach would be pissed off with you. He he take it personally if you’re like speak to my agent. Hey, and you Good is probably Good is probably the best person because how many how many times you get paid out your agent had to deal with, he would have been loving you. No, no. I had Dean Richards turn up at my house, right? We were coming. it was uh and they put pressure on you. This is going back when it was a start of professionalism, right? So game turns professional in ‘ 95. Um and so we’re still learning effectively. And he turns up my house. It was 2001 and we had a big uh semi-final on the Saturday and he turns up at my house on the Tuesday. I hadn’t signed my contract. Um and he said, “Uh I need you to sign your contract.” And I was still talking to another club and my agent at the time was like, you know, you can’t sign it yet. Um, and so anyway, he turn he turns to my house and I I didn’t know he was there. My phone goes, he goes, “Oh, it’s Dino.” I said, “Hello, mate. Yeah, I know it’s you.” He’s like, “Where are you?” And I was like, “Oh, um, I looked out my window and he sat in the front drive. Are you are you out panicking?” I went, “I’m out and about, mate.” He goes, “No, no, I can see you in the house.” Open the front door, let him in. And then he’s trying to shake. He’s like, “Shake on the deal. Shake on the deal.” And you got bullied into it sometimes. Yeah, you did. Yeah, and it has changed a lot now, but that that’s going back 25 years. That is changed a lot now with the agents and the power the agents have got. How does it work from a football point of view in terms of is it literally the club and the agent or is it sort of you’re involved in some because I that was almost I don’t know about you guys from and and you been but like that was almost my favorite time of year or my renegoti I used to love being quite involved in the in the contract negotiations and on the phone or in the meeting room and things like that or is it is it solely agent I got to say is I love this lad. Right. So this is the straight away the difference between rugby and football is you’re all grown men aren’t you? You’re fully in control of your life and your destiny and you run your own sales like businesses. Right. Footballers are the opposite. Right. We want no accountability. We want we don’t want to we don’t want to think about anything. We tell our agent what we want and we go right just call me when it’s done. Yeah. Do it. Deal. Like do it. And that’s it. And a player will very rarely have any they won’t go and see the chief exec. Won’t go and see the chairman. probably won’t even see the manager. It’ll just be agent go and do it and that’s it. Simple as that. And you wait for the agent to finally go right I think we’ve got them to this and then you go yeah cool. I’ll sign it on that and that’s it. So will a manager come up to you or anything or not really. I think probably in years gone by where you had managers who had long stints at club and they were interested in trying to like really grow players and progress the team. But nowadays I don’t think they have time to worry about individual Yeah. They know they’re only going to be there for a year probably maximum. So they’re just worried about getting a result on Saturday afternoon. Whether that’s you signing your contract and you’re happy or making you work a bit harder so that you might sign a bigger contract. Either way, he just wants to performance on Saturday. I do wonder and I hope I asked this in the right way and I can say this having grown up on a council state in cough highfield road. Is there a social class element to that? maybe be an educational element to that where you have young lads who are coming through systems at the age of 8 n 10 then there’s money put on them a lot of money early on I don’t know whatever background and again this is without stereotyping it’s just going on my knowledge of football and lads that I know that have come through systems and gone on to be multi-millionaires is that there’s an educational piece is like we because we we’ve h we have to be educated in that a lot of lads come from private school so they have an educational mathematical accountancy understanding, literacy understanding and all of these things. Hope it’s not sounding harsh. Um that that’s where we have more kind of visibility and understanding of what we’re doing. Whereas if you’re worth a million pound at the age of 15 and I know it’s a lot more now some of these players coming through. It’s like you’re you’re a boy. Yeah. You know, and you don’t understand that. Wayne Rooney was a perfect example. Listen to Wayne Rooney and I not being judgmental or I was on Elmo Hesky. I didn’t think he was very good, but he’s actually much better than me. But but with Wayne legend. Yeah. All right. But with but with Wayne Rooney, you you see yourself, oh, you don’t really say like England captains. I didn’t realize he was illiterate until recently where he was talking about on his podcast that he had to learn to read and learn to write. How is he meant to go and have a [ __ ] contract negotiation when he can’t read a contract? But they’re not expected to either though, Jim. like that I think because the the money is around them so young and if if there’s a a wonder kid coming through there are agents sniffing around the training ground looking to snafle them up at 15 and 16 and 17 years old and then when that is taken care of but like you said with the with you look at like some of the lads that coming through the England like team at the moment we did a podcast with Finn Smith didn’t we and there definitely is you’re not wrong in what you’re saying like you kind of almost like don’t want to offend people or the audience kids. But it’s true, isn’t it? Tell what it is. It’s the word is accountability, right? Yeah. So, it’s it’s a really good question because I obviously I’m successful. I grew up in a council estate. I had a whole career playing football, but now my son goes to private school, plays rugby. His preferred sport is rugby. So, we don’t play football on a Sunday anymore. We he gave up about two months ago. It was just too much hassle. We used to go all places in Birmingham and there would just be fights everywhere kicking off. It was miserable. Honestly, we both of us we were saying, “It isn’t really enjoyable this is it.” He plays rugby on a Saturday for school. the best atmosphere, win, lose or draw, everyone shakes each other’s hands, the parents get on, it’s a lovely social, everything about it is is perfect. But the difference is with young footballers, when they get to this point when they’re worth a bit of money, they know they can get away with stuff, right? Because the club ultimately they’re looking at that thinking, we could make a lot of money off of that. So, he can act up. He can do what he wants, but they’ll brush it under the carpet and they’ll keep brushing it under the carpet. So, he knows he can get away with it and that’s how it works. But I think with football, like you said there with going around and the atmosphere and all that stuff because there’s so much at stake as a kid that could make it a football. Yeah. They’ll go to the ends of the earth to create something for them to become a level up professional. It’s the money. That’s what I’m talking about. The money is the problem. Does it does it h does it, you know, when a footballer puts in a transfer request, do they lose any of the is that why it takes so and that is that why it’s sometimes so long? So they they don’t get a portion of the transfer fee then if they put in a transfer request. So you don’t get any portion of any transfer fee ever. That’s that’s a whole signing on signing on cuz that’s what they always used to say wasn’t it? Oh that was what was put out there if you put a transfer request in you wouldn’t get no so say say if I had another two years left on my contract when I signed that deal initially if it’s a threeyear deal or a four year deal you’ll get a signing on bonus as well. And say if that sign arm bonus is 200 grand, right? You don’t get paid that 200 grand in one lump sum when you sign. You get paid 50 grand every year. So spread over the four years basically. You’ll get that 50 grand in the first year. And whenever you hand that transfer request in, so if I handed it in with two years left, I would have to forego that 100 extra 100 grand that I was due. But it if you’re handing a transfer request in again, I wouldn’t actually hand it in. My agent wouldn’t go and hand it in. That’s what I mean. [ __ ] ass is everywhere. Everybody is they just get But that’s what they’re paid to do though. For me, I I see the other side of it. I’m like, you’re paying an agent to do that. There’s so much money at stake. I keep talking about kind of jeopardy or whatever. I quite like the idea. And maybe that’s personally I’m quite uncomfortable doing that side of things and I was anyway. Not because when you talk about money, heightened emotion comes in, doesn’t it? If you’re a young kid or you’re a young man, you just want to play football. You just want to play rugby. And that’s where I quite liked having an agent to be like, well, no, no, that’s your job, your expertise to do it. Let me just It’s about being one step removed as well. I I I firmly believe it. So even like like I’m Ben’s commercial agent as well, right? And it’s very different with a brand owner or trying to have the conversation directly with Ben and then Ben to turn up and do his duties and be a great lad and then for you to then have a conversation and I might be a pointy one or you guys aren’t doing this very well. It’s nice to be one step removed, isn’t it? I used to love it. I used to bet they didn’t love it. Yeah. Well, I used to I used to absolutely love it because you always get to the point and in rugby as well, it’s always like it’s always like, “Okay, well, this is your best. This is our best offer.” Okay, that’s fine. I’m not accepting it. Yeah. And they they said and then like three phone calls later, was there another offer the offer’s gone up and they’ve they’ve all a sudden they found a load of money behind the sofa and it’s like for for me, but I used to like that. I used to like it’s all lies and like negotiation is a game of chicken. You’ve got to hold you’ve also got to hold the cards at some point as well. Yeah, you can’t you can’t be backing and backing. But I used to like I used to love I also used to like I used to hate the fact that contract negotiations took so long because more often than not and maybe and this may be again a question but in rugby more often than not if a club wants to keep you and you want to stay there’s no reason why that contract negot negotiation shouldn’t just take place in a boardroom and people don’t leave until they’re happy. Yeah. Just get it done out there. And where it complicated is if you want to leave or if other clubs want to pay you more etc. I understand that where it takes a bit longer. But for me and I and I found this a little bit like in the com now that I’m finished going into like the commercial side of things you like everybody’s got to ask and okay things with everybody whereas like from a rugby point of view I just just love going in. you were probably in a very very fortunate position in the fact that how good you were and who you were. Like imagine if you were a player that was fighting for their contract every year just to stay in the game. Well, yeah, but I remember I was a I was 16 years old and the Ospreys and um I got offered like 20 grand by like I can’t remember if it was somebody in England. It was like an academy in England and um the Ospreys uh club in Swansea, my home club had offered me two grand a year. So, I went into the um I went into the sort of directors, the CEO, head coach, and things. I said, “Oh, well, I need a meet. I’d like to have a meeting with you.” And my I remember my mom dropped me off on a Friday night before they played a game. And I went into the middle meeting room underneath the stadium and I said, “Oh, look, this is the offer I’ve been presented. You’ve given me this. There’s no way I can sign this.” Said, “I’m not prepared to sign this.” I said, “I’m I feel like I’m good enough to back myself to be worth more than that and and and play for you when I’m older and etc., etc. and he sort of said, “Okay.” So, he gave me a piece of paper, the owner, Mike Cuddy, uh, he had a piece of paper and he said, “You write down what you think you’re worth and I’ll write down what I think you’re worth.” And then we ended up coming over the table. We passed over and I came out of that with 12 and a half grand. So, from two from two. Yeah. So, I I was a 16-y old kid. I thought I’d won the lottery, you know what I mean? So, I spent the first paycheck on the way out in the tunnel on the way out sort of thing. Grand a month. You’re cooking anyway. But what I mean is in terms of like and that’s maybe again why like I think there needs to be more of that in terms of you got to know what you you got to know what your worth is. But um I just think like this I I just love that negotiation. The hard thing on that though you got to know what your worth is but your worth is only what that club will pay you or another club’s going to pay you. If there’s no other clubs then they’re in charge. You want to bid him more don’t you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I won the the equipment of the Champions League Champions Cup Fire. It was called the Heining Cup. Started the final for Leicester at 20 years of age on 10 grand a year. Wow. And that was so that and then you become and I’m I’m probably known for being a bit ruthless, right, with contract negotiations and I moved. Well, I know. Yeah, maybe. But I moved around a few clubs towards the end of my career just trying to max out what I could because at the start of my career, you I had a load of success, but you weren’t rewarded for it. And it was and maybe it was a Leicester thing, right? because it was a battle to get cuz they Leicester had this big thing around we were the biggest and best club in the land and they thought they didn’t need to pay players as much because you ever wanted to play for Leicester and yes you did because then you got picked for England further down the line but massively undervalued as players and then obviously as the games changed money’s come into it more you know the the word loyalty which isn’t a great word for me to talk about because I’ve played for about 10 clubs but that’s drifted away from the game hasn’t it in terms of rugby now because players move all the time. Whereas going back 25 years, when I first started, players didn’t move. You pick your club, you stayed at it. And I think I think football’s probably gotten too far ahead of itself. It’s like the money in it now and everything is so faceless and it’s just it’s it’s a bit transactions, aren’t they? It’s a bit horrible really to be fair. And I think rugby needs to come a little bit into the into the current era and now with the way that it’s it’s done. Is there an element of there’s so many clubs in terms of you so if you’re a footballer in England in the Premier League and somebody won’t pay you 100 grand a week you know that probably four or five teams in Italy will four or five teams in Germany will Spain Saudi Saudi um you know Holland you know wherever France whatever PS somebody will be there so strong as well so that’s what that’s what kind of your point is good isn’t it you kind of you’ve got to have almost other options to fall back on you know what’s been the biggest killer the Saudi the Saudi league really is what which is what ruined it for a good few years. I know they’re trying to like govern it now and sort of like clamp down on how much money they can pay and stuff, but they absolutely blew everyone out of the water because you’ve got these proper Premier League players in their prime who were being offered very good wages by their clubs, 150, 200 grand a week, like massive deals, but Saudi was offering him double like so and taxree and I can’t blame people. I really can’t. Like there’s like like this anti Joshua fight at the minute 50 odd 60 odd 70 odd mate whatever it is you’re doing it aren’t you? You are. Is there an element though like I was and this is really uneducated from me because people everyone’s in different circumstances aren’t they? There’d be an there’d be an argument for the the man on the street or whoever woman on the street which say well if you’re earning 200 grand a week why do you need to go to play in a not as attractive league as the Premier League or La Liga or whatever for 350 grand a week if you’re earning that money so I suppose that’s the the question people would say well then is it okay well should you show some loyalty how much money is enough money well it’s the same thing though isn’t it it’s like but it’s comparable isn’t it so someone offered you two grand and then someone I’ll give you four grand. At that scale of it, it’s not that much difference, is it? But at a road man level, you’re like, well, [ __ ] hell. Four grand. That makes double. And then that’s what it is. Because I think I see Joshua fighting Jake Paul. I’m like, mate, you’re a multi- multi multi multi multi-millionaire. He’s literally got under like he’s already got 100 million. But maybe the mindset is and we know, right, because we were loosely we were athletes, right? And it’s a short career. And because of the lack of loyalty and the injury, especially in our sport, in boxing as well, the jeopardy that someone like Joshua puts himself through, he’s been flatlined a few times as well, is nah, I deserve that money. I’m playing in a tough sport. I’ve put my body on the line. I’ve, you know, played football or rugby since I was this years old. I would want to max out. And you’re seeing that now, aren’t you? And it’s probably because of the lack of loyalty ac across all all different sports, especially in our sport. I know you probably want to talk about it, but you know the injuries and stuff like that and I was probably too loyal. I had a few different clubs when it came to contract negotiation. I always felt uncomfort pay you this. Okay. And maybe that’s cuz from where I’m from, but even now when we do the podcast and stuff, I found it uncomfortable having commercial conversations. Will you do this for charity? I’ll do it. I’ll do it cuz he’s like, “Fuck that. How much you paying me?” Um because it’s just Yeah. I It’s just an uncomfortable conversation, but it’s money is everything. Like how many games in your career, you three, have you played fully fit? 100%. At the beginning of my career, there’d be a few. Yeah. But if you say 100% fit, as I sit here rubbing my finger, I mean, that finger’s over there. I know. Exactly. Ah, maybe the first season and then I went in rolled into the second season, it’d be like broken fingers, sore back. I mean, we can maybe get into it like some of the stuff that we’d had to put our bodies through, but it’s quite harrowing really when I’m speaking to my my wife about my son playing rugby or playing basketball. There’s money to be made in Turkey apparently in basketball, not in uh not in rugby. But yeah, I’d say one season. It it is a brutal brutal sport. What about now? Like you’re all happily retired and what’s the state of your bodies now? You’re only six months in, but I’m wrecked. Are you really? I play in a different position to to these lads. So very different. Yeah, these are fly halves and you know Bigs took a lot of contact as well in how you played the game. Goody not so much. They were more they they ran the show. They threw us into the fire basically. But I played in the position in the scrum. So number four or five. So I was in the middle of a scrum. I was also a jumper. So that has its own issues around knees, dislocated ankles and stuff like that. But just to give you an idea of like head to toe injuries that I had, I nearly lost my eye in a game. Had my eyelid reconstructed all the way down to dislocicating my ankle, broken legs, medials, um broken nose three time, multiple finger breaks, stitches, broken sternum, six broken ribs, four shoulder reconstructions, and that’s just a few broken foot, broken hand. And you know when you talk about money and we talk about the sport and you know it, you know, sometimes it is a badge of honor. You know, when you talk about having played the game or, you know, we do a lot of grassroots stuff or speaking and you know, you see the cauliflower ears and the broken nose and there’s a nod, but it is a brutal sport in some positions like it’s as tough as tough sports you do you hurt like dayto-day now. Are you kind of like does the body repair to a point or do you struggle now as a result? I do struggle but I manage it very well. Uh so I train I’m very lucky that we do a podcast where we can make a living off it where I I I get physio supplementations. I I I’m very interested in that side of deal. Have we got what have we got a supplement deal? Have we? Yeah. Yours is an alcohol yours is of the alcoholic sort. Um but you know what again without going too much into the the the kind of the the darkness of our sport is when you finish playing and you know I didn’t make millions of pounds. I wasn’t at that level but when I finished at 34 you’re done. There’s no afterare. There’s no oh man I need a new knee. You know, we’ve got lads, one that uh Biggs played with, Richard Hibard played for the Lions, long blonde hair, Wales. He’s had a full shoulder, brand new shoulder, as in like a titanium shoulder put in. And I don’t know what his situation is about, you know, who paid for that or who got it done, but we’re getting lads and it’ll be the same in football, like knees and hips and stuff like that that are just complet, you know, completely. Surely you’ve got like a like we’ve got a PFA. the PFA would pay like if I if I lodged a claim basically and said I need my knee in. Yeah. There’s there’s the RPA who will help towards certain things but you got to be really bad you so some mental health stuff but injuries I’ve had more operations since I retired than I had when I maybe go through them maybe just just share because I think it’s interesting for the football audience to hear what you’ve had. Yeah. So I I mean I had three ankle cleanouts at the end of my career. uh three knee clan outs but that led to um having osteotomy in my knee. So pins and plates put in osteotomy in my ankle um shoulder reconstruction all post career and I was lucky in the sense of I had a job in the city um and we had private medical hair so I did all my stuff through that because luckily with the uh policy that we had it was um you could pre-existing things counted even if you know I was a rugby player but is this so even this sorry to break this down even more detail right when you’re looking at getting a job after rugby are you looking for a job that has medical insurance as well. Um I now it’s a necessity, right? Yeah. Um but at the time I didn’t say it was a it was a a bonus and a benefit, but it I wasn’t looking for a job just for that. So there’s loads of lads that would be um you go into jobs that might not get it. But I I’d tell every player you need to find some sort of health insurance for it because the operations I’ve had I’ve been on crutches for six months was my ankle from the osteotomy and it’s the best thing I’ve ever done but I like I can’t run around now. Not that I could run when I played either to be fair. But um you just you just adapt your life and develop and you know we I cycle a little bit, train a bit. Um and ultimately you want to just be able to play with the kids. I can’t you see all some of the lads who are blessed and allowed to do Iron Men and marathons. I can’t ever do anything like that because my ankle and my knee, but I haven’t got the desire to do it either. Yeah. But you just want to be able to play golf, cycle, play with your kids, that sort of stuff. Um, but that’s body stuff that we’ve just gone through there. Like also systemically I’ve had issues as well. Uh, painkillers, gut issues, had a thyroidctomy, blew my thyroid out, got elbowed in the throat, had to have a plate put in my first rib. Had to have my thyroid removed, which is a hormone testosterone cortisol regulator. And I’m not the only story. There’s a few. This isn’t to put people off. I know you’re lads playing. This isn’t this is more a product of the environment and the time in which we grew up in because like it’s changed now like Julie said like we quite late to professionalism the money coming into the game but I was at world rugby for two years and I was really trying to push the the narrative on player injury um prevention uh I’ve been over Dallas Cowboys looking at stem cell things. I’m really interested in that space because just to reiterate, we play the toughest sport probably in the world in comparison to what you get paid and what the output is. And yeah, so it’s not just bones. There’s obviously the clear stuff around concussion and and head injuries and TBIs that is so much better. We didn’t have that. That wasn’t in place. I didn’t miss one game through concussion or a training session. You just go through it. You play it simple. Obviously, the game that I played, I was concussed many times. So that’s the kind of darkness of there and we’ve almost been the guinea pigs of that bigs. You’ve probably maybe stepped into that a little bit and things were significantly better. Yeah, things were significantly better especially the clubs I played for. It was it was there was never any issues from from that side of it and I and I was and I have to say I was one of the very very lucky ones. I played for 18 nearly 19 years. Never had an OP. Longest I was out for was six weeks. I did my MCL. So I’ve never um I did my back at the end of my career where I’ve sort of um bulging disc but other than that for my throughout my the height of my career for 18 years six weeks was the longest I So now though would you would you say even though you didn’t have any like major ops would you got like wear and tear and tear and I found that I would it would take a lot longer to recover from bumps. I picked up a lot more bumps and um bangs in the latter stages of my career which took which may have even um impacted maybe having to come off with 20 minutes to go or whatever or took a lot longer to recover from post post game. So if you play on a Saturday you wouldn’t probably be training till maybe Tuesday or Wednesday type of thing. Um so for me I was extremely fortunate. I I was looked after incredibly well and again I came through a little bit later than than than Goody and Jim. So I probably there was a bit more knowledge and a bit more sort of sport science and and everything like this. But but also from from a rugby players point of view. Yes, it’s a clearly more physically demanding from a contact point of view than than what you guys do in terms of football. But it’s you look at the the volume of games that you guys in terms of they’re different injuries, aren’t they? In terms of more sort of soft tissue injury and things like that. I mean you guys are playing, you know, Sunday t or Sunday, Wednesday, Saturday. They’re kicking the [ __ ] out of each other though, are they? No, but Liverpool is Liverpool have got seven games in or one of them I was reading this morning six or seven games in 20 days or something. But I played in um and again you’re 100% right goody that you’re not you aren’t kicking the [ __ ] out of each other and your body is is is a lot better in terms of from from that side of it. But I played in like a charity football game last Monday and we played against we were saying off air we played against like Fabian Bartes Lizar Razu Payet those guys. Um, and I mean just for the record, you I hope you’re as good an outfield as Bart because he was absolutely taking the piss out of everyone. Absolutely. Like inester and Javi in the midfield there. But what I’m trying to say was and I’ve I’ve been doing quite a lot of 5ks since I’ve finishing. So I’m not I haven’t just finished and stopped doing things. So like I’ve I’ve kept going and kept being fit. But I woke up Tuesday morning absolutely done. As in the amount of running you have to do, especially when you’re playing against teams that are better than you, you can’t get within a yard of them. So what I’m saying is like the body felt like legs, knees, back just from changing direction. It’s just different body. Mine it’s all right. You know what? I’ve had I’ve had a lot of injuries though. So again, three ACLs, broken feet, sort of tiny little bones in your foot, horrible ones, wrists, double hernas, all sorts, fingers all over the shop. Um, and it’s all right now. I kind of learned to manage it. I do a lot of cycling. Um, so I kind of stay on top of it. Do a lot of gym work as well. Um, but like Jim said a minute ago there about anti-inflammatories like I used to just live on anti-inflammator genuinely. What was your poison of choice? Do you remember the name? I just had the big pinkies. Oh, the pinkies. 600 milligrams. Diclphanic. Well, dphanic are banned now. That’s what we used to live on. But that’s what it was. It was the same era. They obviously know now. Do they? The football is still on them. Still on them though. So you’re supposed to take them with the tummy settlers, aren’t you? The I guess I can’t remember what it’s called, but you’re supposed to take them with the line in the stomach. Yeah. To line the stomach basically. But back like I’m talking 20 years ago, we never you would take again cuz I had so many injuries. My knee would swell up every day. Literally every day train swell train swell. So I was constantly just constantly con for years and years, didn’t they? Oh, they were incredible. But they worked. So you just keep taking them. But then later on I was taking I remember being on sort of uh muscle relaxers. What’s the muscle relax on the dasopan? We used to have sleeping pills the night before games or when we were traveling and stuff like that. So they and hand it out quite happily. Um when I put my back out um just messing around with the kids I was in agony as in the back was completely out. So L4 L5 issue but I had a proper back spasm where I was crawling around the floor for three or four days. I could I couldn’t literally couldn’t stand upright. That’s what I did. Yeah. Yeah. I had to piss in a cup as well. But who do I go to? I can’t bring up the GP. So one of the lads did a drop off denty. It was a dazipan. I looked on the uh the box. It was Leads General 2007. I was like, “Give me that.” And I just took it because it we were desperate because there’s nothing now for for us as as players. Such a contact sport. You know what it is? I So I I do my shoulder six months ago, but like I was in honestly one of the worst things I’ve done. Tore my rotator cuff, right? Completely off the bike. Yeah. Uh no, playing football. I did I went and played football, been retired for a year and a half and decided I thought I could still play football. Landed on it, popped it, ripped it. But I’m I’m being deadly serious. The pain was like I’ve done like I say all sort the worst pain by far. White as a ghost. I’m just for two days I’m thinking I just someone put me out of my misery. Anyway, I don’t know where to go to. I haven’t got a GP. I don’t know. I don’t know where to go. So luckily I still know the doctor don’t I from from back in the day. Rung him up. He was like mate I’ll get somebody to deliver drugs to your house like later on today. It’ll be a few hours but they’ll I was like thank you. Suppositories up my bum. Um he gave me something else to take that was unreal. Like literally unreal. Took the pain away like you wouldn’t believe. sleeping pills. But I I had to have it. I needed I said I asked my wife um a question the other day and I said this is this sounds ridiculous and this is when I explain I hope people understand a bit more but I said well how do you how do you go and see a GP? Yeah cuz I mean it’s and I and I because you’re mad but but for the last for the last 20 years I haven’t been to because if there’s ever been a problem you registered you’ve had I’m not registered. I’m not the kids but in France. Oh I mean it’s different everywhere. So so so we’re living in France. So, we were back home the other day and I was like, “So, what who do I go to? What do I do?” Because I and the the go-to is you you phone the the club doctor, the national doctor you’ve known. If there’s a problem, you don’t you know, you just go to him and then you’re sorted. Same same for dentists. You know what I mean? If you got problem, you’re straight in and things like that. So, for me, I’ve I’ve realized in the last six months how um welcome to retirement. Yeah. Into the real into the real world. Real life. That bigs with that. That’s why a lot of lads in sport struggle because I mean we’re sat here in our sports we’ve done well for ourselves right so we can talk about these things talk about experiences but the mass the majority of men who’ve played our sport I imagine a lot of the footballers that are playing down the lower leagues that are trying to make ends meet they’ll have the same injuries as us what I mean and when they retire and you’re in pain the loss of identity and all these things that manifest when you stop playing sport it’s the pain thing for me which I think lads in our sport will what I know speaking to to players is like how you manage that you know as you get older and and these things as well but you know that’s the that’s the nastiness around the game there’s so many more positives but I think it’s quite interesting to share that so when I was at West Brom when I was at Watford um basically we have a club doctor who does injuries physical injuries muscles all that kind of stuff and then you have a family doctor who’s on site who anything illnesses is anything for your family sorted. We had dentist who literally just down the road everything and anything was sorted for the players. Some of the players talking about accountability again if they if they got a bill through that they didn’t know where it came from, right? If their car had a fault on the screen that they didn’t know what to do with it, they would if their dishwasher broke. Yeah, I’m not even joking you. They would come in to the liaison guy at at the club and go Macan need service him and he’d go all right. Do you want me to sort it for you? And he would go, “Yes.” And he would go, “All right.” And he give him the keys. Is that is that is that is that the foreign boys, though? No. No. It’s everyone. Say, not just foreign because I can I can relate to that and you’ll be the same, [ __ ] from from spending a bit of time outside in a in a country where you don’t speak the language to start and things are done differently. So like it’s it’s not easy, is it? In terms of opening a bank account, getting getting medical. I I understand. But yeah, if if it’s kind of like the British guys as well. washer, washing machine, flat tire. We we we wor with a coach and he said he had one of the lads come up to him at Southampton and said, “Um, can you help me? I need to buy a pink Christmas tree.” Um, and he was like, “This is the first team coach he’s going to [ __ ] off.” Like, what are you doing? Isn’t it like a lot of the time? So, I’ve got mates that have got kids in Tottenham Academy, Watford Academy from seven, eight years old and I’ve got eight-y old girls. That’s too early. Yeah. In terms of what I think for my girls. I think so. Yeah. But then that’s how you’re gonna make it or not make it, right? If you I don’t know though. I just think the life experiences that you miss out on from those years, those real kind of formative years of learning stuff from being in that academy and wrapped up in cotton wool, I think you miss out on so much more of life and everything else that But from a technical point of view, if you’re in at 8 or in at 13, how big is the difference? And can that be bridged from 13? Well, that is especially because it’s all about how your body develops and how it grows. And so you see players at eight who are will be beaters, right? and then by the age of 13 they haven’t grown or they have grown and then the body don’t connect and it don’t make sense anymore. So I just think those years there leave it to 13. I think from 13 is probably where you can get a real start to get a real gauge of it. You you very rarely see a wonder kid at 8 n 10 years old that goes on to actually be a wonder kid. Yeah. Can I ask you just quickly your favorite time or your favorite period as a player and what where and who under what manager was it? Um my favorite period probably would have been about late 20s. So I think when we just had our kids um and I was at West Brom and it would have been the P it’s not necessarily the manager that makes it. It’s more the team it’s more about your teammates and we had like a real solid British core of players all the way through the spine of the team. Real good lads that were there for a long time as well. Five, six, seven years. I was there for eight years but f most of them were five or six seven years. The lads were all together at the same time. And I just found I just loved every single day. One going into work, two we all knew we’d all just fight properly on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon. We weren’t necessarily the best team, but we would outwork most of the teams. And that’s the bit you got this kind of like quiet pride of always doing this to teams. Um, so that would have been sort of I think as well as men late in your 20s once you have kids especially, something really hits home about what’s really actually important and football’s great and it’s the be all and end all and fans expect you to be gutted if you lose and happy if you win. But you kind of got to a place where win, lose or draw, you just were always Yeah, it was fine. It was fine. Who’s the manager then? We had we had a few to be fair. We had Roy Hudson at West Brom. Tony Pew is at West Brom. Um Steve Clark who’s just unbelievable with Scotland at the minute. Actually talk about Scotland. Did you watch it the other night by the way got the OG Scottish English Scotland? He’s got a Scotland top on the way. Speaking of someone who’s like Zavian Mctomin turned into a Zavian. What’s going on with that? Amazing. What a player. Oh amazing player. Man United isn’t he looks like a man now though, doesn’t he? He looks like a fully grown man. He looks he looks like he looks stronger. see him walking around with a double espresso and like he’s just he’s turned into Hey, Maradona was at Napoli, weren’t he? Yeah, he was. Yeah, there you go. What’s your obviously playing for the different clubs you play for? Do you support a club? Cuz that’s a obviously we’ve all got clubs that we support. I’m sat in my coff shirt. Um but actually when you’re in the game playing, you grew up as a kid supporting someone. Yeah, Tottenham. I was um only just because my brother was a Tottenham fan so I’ve got two older brothers and he he kind of made me be a Tottenham fan really. Um but once you start playing Yeah. and and I’m playing against them. You can’t really go and support anybody anymore. So, I’ve fully lost that kind of affinity or that support for Tottenham. My son’s a bit of an Arsenal fan. So, um he was happy yesterday. He’s quite happy. Not a Buggies fan then? No. No. Well, no, he is a bit to be fair. Yeah. No, I I’ll definitely I will look after the teams that I played for and had like the best like time of my career at. So, it would be uh West Brom, Birmingham, uh and Rexom. That’s who I look for. Not Waty. Who? Not Watford. No, there’s some too much kind of bubbling on behind the scenes. Honestly, too much drama. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth. The club the club is fantastic and they they they where they are like geographically like that location is Northland is perfect. They should be they should be in the Premier League, they they can make a real success of it. But the way that they some of the people at the club run the club, you just think what are you doing? Like what you turn over managers all the time, politics, internal politics and that just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. It really does. I’ve got a question for you guys. Who’s who is the Messi the Lionol Messi of rugby? Anton de Palom. Yeah. Straight up right now. Well, we have I mean Lionol Messi as we know as you know better like has transcended the game. A lot of footballers have done that. David Beckham, Ronaldo, even as far back as Maradona and Pelle and you know really cut through into popular culture and become cult heroes I suppose wherever they walk around in their country and globally where people recognize them. We haven’t had many. Johnny Wilkinson, Jonah Lomu, the late great my era. Dan Carter would have been Yeah. So there’s maybe five. Yeah. But in the modern game, you talk about someone that’s starting to do a little bit more away from the game. He’s done some activations in the NBA. I saw him with Victor Wembe. Yeah. And he’s with he went to the LA Rams last year. I’m sure he did something as well with Messi. He’s doing like he’s do he’s got a deal with like Louis Vuitton and things. So like you think like those like that doesn’t happen to a rugby player does it? You don’t rugby players don’t get deals with Louis whereas I’ve got a deal with Louis go to the shop and buy some wealth market. We were just actually having this conversation earlier. I won’t go too much into it with um with with slug hands over there with one of our producers about slug hands like he’s got sweaty hands. Obviously slugs don’t have hands. He’s got sweaty hands. He’s good though. Um, you look at all the other sports, the greatest players like the Messi of other sports, LeBron James, um, Brady, Michael Jordan, who whoever it is that you you can literally name them, can’t you? There’d be two or three. It’s interesting to ask you then as a casual rugby fan, who would you say? So, if and I’m I’m putting you on the spot on purposely of all time. So, if you if you could name two or three rugby players, who comes to mind? For for us being English, it’s probably Johnny Wilkinson. Yeah, probably Johnny Wilkinson. Probably a little bit more niche. But what was the uh New Zealand 10? Dan Carlo. No, Carlos Spencer. That is quite niche. But you know, but there you go. Skills to pay the bills. So there in that point, right, that you could only name one, right? And we’re sat here as rugby players and we could we could literally start reeling them off. You name about eight there. Right. So, so question back to you then Fuzzy. So, Tony Bower. Yeah. Do you remember Richie Mccor? He was a he was a flanker for New Zealand. So, like fair assessment say just absolutely heartlessly dog work ethic like real skilled as well. But who who who in the football world would you kind of put in there? Equate that to anymore that we need like real leadership. Tony Adams. I would say if if you would talk about the most comp just my opinion lad the most complete rugby player of our generation or the professional generation is probably Richard Mccor when it comes to fitness hard work he was a leader he was captain winner as well quite understated you know what I mean it wasn’t all the glitz and glam yeah yeah I’d say that probably a little bit like I yeah Johnson was a big so who is that a bit like a Steven Gerard then is it? Yeah. Yeah. A bit a bit allrounder polish. What did What did Gerard win? Oh, Liverpool. I like it though at the minute by the way Champions League in fairness. Oh, he did to be sure he did go maybe in that in the Yeah, maybe. Yeah, Stevie G’s a good one. Would it be would it be like a a Zidane type figure in terms of like or would he be more of in your superstar? He’s a galactic. I think Stevie G is a great show. Yeah, because he’s a bit more understated, you know, because he had it all, but he was a dog as well, weren’t he? Um, I’ve got a question for you. So, um, who was the who’s the Welsh winger? Rapid Lou. Why is it not worked out for him in um the NFL then? Because you watch him run. I watched him the other day and he is just considering he’s 6′ whatever and he’s an absolute unit. He’s [ __ ] doesn’t he? Yeah, I’m really interested in that space. Bigs is close. We’ve had him on our show a few times as well, but I interviewed him a couple of times when he was in that transition and when he was actually there doing it and we spoke off camera and I was like, “Mate, what’s it like?” And he said, “Hang around with Pat Mahomes and Travis Kelce. He’s a different world like financially and just like in awe of these incredible athletes.” But what he said was he’s like, “There’s so many athletes like me or like him specifically when he’s talking about himself with the speed and the power.” He’s like, but it’s the having to think. So, you get these playbooks and they it’s all about the playbooks and strategy. He’s like, when a play is called, he has to think and with that split second of thinking, the other players already in that position because instinct so playing the game for 15 years growing up as that’s what I mean. Is that why then? Because he hasn’t grown up playing that game. Everybody else has got that advantage over him because of that. And from an athletic and I don’t think I’m harsh saying this, maybe you know he’s an incredible athlete in rugby, but rugby there’s so much more because you need fitness, you need speed, you need power, you need to be able to jump high, you’ve got to be robust, but I think it is in the NFL a different level of athleticism. Do you think as well it’s a little bit and linking this back to football effectively that it’s very difficult for the NFL to have taken a chance on someone like like Lewis because effectively they can just go out and get the next best thing from say Louis or or whatever from Seattle or from whatever college. So it’s kind of like there’s so much choice to take a chance on. Is that linked back a little bit to what certainly in the Premier League? How much harder is it for younger players to get a chance? Because ultimately when when the manager’s under pressure, easiest thing to do is, oh, let’s go and spend 50 million on a on a world class player or 100 million. But even now, even when like clubs get to the summer transfer window and they’re off and they got all these scouting networks all over the world now as well. But I think it still links back to money, I think it’s so much easier to scout players nowadays because the network’s there, but they’re much cheaper as well. And these players are still so hungry as well, right? So, they’ve never grown up in these lovely facilities, lovely, they haven’t been given everything yet. And they get these players through the door and they’re still willing to work hard because I still think to be the best footballers, to be the footballer that might go and make it or make a name for himself, you’ve got to want to work hard all the time. And this is what money does, right? It softens you. It softens that work rate and it suffens to go and do it relentlessly. So, were you softened when you got the big contracts? No. Never. Never. You were an anomaly, were you? Yeah. No, no, no. There’s certain players, I told I said this before, there’s certain players and certain characters you can trust to do. You can trust that you can give them the new contract. Like if you give Declan Rice a new six-year deal, right, on 300 grand a week, you’d still get Declan Rise tomorrow that you got today, wouldn’t you? That’s is that’s and there are players that go everybody. The interesting thing with Louis Re is I I think for me when I look at it, the the IP to your point is like that’s their they pick of these players from the international player. They’re they’re trying to grow the the game around the world, aren’t they? And the fact that we are talking about it on crossover podcast means the NFL have succeeded in what they’re trying to do. I don’t think it’s about Lewis Ree Sam. Well, in fact, I know it’s not about that because he’s now playing rugby again. But they have they’re such a successful sport on and off the pitch commercially, Super Bowl. You can look at all the different touch points, the fandom, how much the athletes get paid. They’re the number one sport in the world when it when we’re looking in at how things are done and their house is in order, right? So now they’re looking to build other houses. Germanyy’s a big market for them. Spain obviously the games that have been played a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. In quite a lot. Yeah. In the UK in Dublin as well. So they have got the luxury now, haven’t they, to actually tap into other sports and the fact that one of our most talked about athletes goes risk for him. Like you know what annoys me is on social media when I see comments and I I follow the the the story and I really found it interesting that people going, “Oh, he’s failed. He’s come back and you go, “Listen, when he was young and he wanted to give it a try, fair play.” Actually, from a financial point of view as well, my understanding that even playing for for Wales is that in the training squad, would he be something like 700 grand a year or something a significant amount of money? So, financially, it wasn’t like he was taking a huge hit or anything like that. And his profile and also integrating new fans, the fact that Travis Kelce and Pat Mahomes were asking him about rugby sparked their interest. then Jason Kelsey and they’re talking about rugby. Do you know what I mean? So from a rugby perspective, it’s I think it was a massive rugby what were the Welsh rugby fans like about sort of welcome welcome welcoming him back. A lot easier considering Wales hadn’t won a game for two years since you if if Wales had won every game, it may have been a bit of a harder sell to bring him back in. But I I think Wales was probably so short of big players, big name players and world class talent that they they sort of saw this as a real opportunity. And you you can see I was at the stadium at the Principality um three or four times this this month for Wales’s games in the in the series. And his name when his name is read out considering he hasn’t played rugby, he’s played two and a half games of rugby in two and a half years. Wow. His name is still getting the loudest cheer because he’s connected with the because he’s big. He’s news and he’s popular and he’s back up like that. Yeah. Yeah. He looks Yeah, he looks he looks he’s put a bit of weight on terms of like Yeah. He wasn’t like that when before he went. He’s looks chunky though. Good. Chunky. You know what I mean? That’s how they had to train him to try and play because he got moved around two or three positions, didn’t he? Yeah. Um, and dealing with some of those athletes over there, you’ve got to work hard and you can’t just rely, he can rely on his own sort of talent. He’s not that sort of person, but if he wanted to, he could rely on his own talent in rugby because of his speed, because of his ability to beat someone one-on-one. That will keep him in the game for as long, but obviously pushing the boundaries and getting as high as he can. And I love the fact that he went there. It was his dream. His dad was involved in it when he was growing up and loved it. Um, and he took a chance on himself. But there’s a lot of doubters in rugby. There’s a lot of people that go, “Hope you fail. or hope you don’t get anywhere which is the rugby way, isn’t it? Well, some of the stories he came back with about being in Pat Mahomes’s house and nights out with Travis Kelce. I mean, it was it was incredible. And that’s just the social scene, let alone the the performance side. Some life experience that is. I mean, as a young man, you know what I mean? What was he 21 22 when he went? 22 I think. Good looking lad as well. He would have been doing some damage. He would have been. Absolutely. Yeah. Exactly. I think he came back with a misses, didn’t he? Got an American. I think she’s American. Of course, let’s say she is. Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story. Yeah. No, he’s done. All right. You know, like we’re talking about the NFL like for footballers. How And we’re doing a bit of a crossover here. How like how popular is say rugby amongst the football lads or is it not particularly? It’s not particularly, is it? I I don’t think I’ve really played with many people that would be like a really like if if we’re talking about people that would actually go to watch the games, it would be the it would be the British lads. It would be the Irish lads more than anything. You’ll get some of the Scottish lads wanting to go and watch on a Sunday or anything like that, but um you’ll get a few English boys, but most of the times it’ll be the Scots and the Irish really the Welsh boys again, but um not massive. Really not massive. It’s not like we’d be planning to go and watch a game on a Sunday or or even I mean Saturdays we’re playing anyway, so we’re not really going to watch it. What about boxing? Yeah, boxing. They’ll get behind the boxing. Okay. And this is for me, right? And I I love football. I love boxing. I love UFC. There’s a social thread that go through this. Like football speaks to the people. It speaks to the everyday person. It’s tribal. Okay. It’s for the workingclass people. Same as boxing. That’s why talk sports such a big platform, right? Because it has, you know, they’re the two biggest sports that they talk about. And that’s where we you talk about popular culture and growing and money in the game and we want to get paid more and all of these things where the the thread in football in this country is football boxing oasis. You know what I mean? Like as in music in that and that’s the masses. That’s the everyday. And we’re in this kind of outside where people are starting to look in now. Oh, that’s [ __ ] a good sport. The values that come with it, a tough sport, you know, how much can you make playing rugby? You know, is it worth it kind of thing? And we’re in that position now. But it is interesting that I we kind of knew the answer, didn’t we? Yeah. There might be a few. Not that know. It’s it’s the difference between how many rugby players will want to go to watch a football game on a Sunday and we’ll be on the on the on the sofa watching Super Sunday and the big game on Sunday afternoon and and things like that. It’s it’s it’s literally it’s it’s on it’s on more in my house than than rugby in a way. Yeah. My mates were asking me, oh why, you know, why is football so popular, you know, compared to they get paid so much more money for me. And it’s the same as the boxing analogy. Simple to follow. So in boxing, you watch a boxing match, you know what you’re looking for. True. Yeah. You watch a football match, you literally it’s so easy to get into that. It’s, you know, even the Scottish football, most of them are nil nil draws, you know, but you you know what’s going on with it. Whereas a rugby and we were speaking about in our podcast before there’s a confusion. Oh, what’s going on? Why is he yellow card red? What’s going on? What they doing? That’s what you found so interested watching it. Like I was for years trying to get you in along to watch and you’re like I think it was lack of understanding. as you started watching and your lad in particular, you understand like the roles. Like he came back the other day saying, “Oh, there Louie was playing with this lad and he was like he was playing center and he was like 6′ three and massive and and they just giving the ball and he just down the middle and like you you can start understanding the roles, don’t you?” So, do you enjoy the physical aspect? So, do you appreciate that? So, when you watch I know that’s a different level with the young ladies, but when you watch the game, what do you appreciate? What’s the thing where you’re like, “Wow, I love the fact that they’re they’re all units now.” So my son’s 16. So we he obviously like I say he goes private school. So they they play in the rugby schools cup and some of the kids they’re playing against. You’re talking about scholarship schools as well. Some of these from up north as well like your hull teams and your Sedbras and teams like that at honestly 6’3 lads who you give them the ball and they can shift a bit as well but you’ve got lads who are 5′ 8 9 10 11 diving head first into their knees and into their feet and I’m thinking I don’t know if I could do that. So the physicality and the cring watching it now a bit. That’s what I mean. the sound it makes and stuff like that. So, as someone new to the sport, so it’s the the athletes that you’re looking at, but also the physicality, but also, do you know what I really like? The best part of it for me is the team spirit of it. The team, the the fact that everybody is together, the camaraderie, everybody’s budging off everybody, clapping each other for a tackle, patting him on the back, grabbing him, picking him up. Nobody’s flinging arms around, nobody’s being a little [ __ ] Not only that, though, it’s the socials as well, cuz Ben was telling me about that. They go, they do the curry on a Saturday night. Listen to this, right? It’s class. I love it. Yeah. So obviously you’ve got the six form after after. So my my son’s in the final year once they leave school, they go to the six form at the same school. Um so you got your two years of of uh A levels, whatever. So if Louis team win and it’s a big win and they want to go and celebrate at the curry house, they have to ask the A team which is the A levels guys. They have to ask them if they can go to the Curry house. So the captain Theo will make his way over to the captain of the Hi sir. Is it okay if we go? And he’ll give him a little Yeah, no worries. Well done today, lads. And they’ll come and watch and stuff like that. You have the the big boys coming and watch cuz they’re playing on the first team pitch now as well. All of that. I love that sort of um brotherhood. Yeah. I just love it. I think it’s really nice. Really, really nice. You know that you speaking about the cam camaraderie and and you mentioned your time at West Brom where you had like a core group of like six, seven, eight um British guys. Yeah. How difficult is it to get that in football because you’ve got guys from France, Holland, Spain, England, uh Africa, you know, Japan, whatever. How difficult is it to bring it together? Because we’re lucky in our sport that generally if say for argument sake you play in France, 90% of the players are French, aren’t they? So you’ve got the French thing, you’ve got a few foreigners and you mix in a bit easier. But when you’re dealing with or if you’re in England, obviously 90% of people are English. You’ve got one or two. But in your sport, it’s literally you kind of change the room full of nationalities. That’s what I mean. So, how do you bring that together? It’s really hard. What’s the best way you found to do it? So, um I’ve seen I’ve seen it go well and then I’ve seen it be awful at the same time. So, when I first signed for Watford actually, um 2018 this would have been. And obviously I’m one of the like senior members of the team, probably the oldest player on the team. And you’ve got probably a little group of about eight British players. Uh you’ve got a group of five Spanish, five French. Uh you got a little African corner over there and everybody just sits in those little corners as well. So you’ve got four corners of a dressing room and every little nationality is sitting in their corner. But we all got on really well. We actually I don’t know why it was or I can’t put my finger on what it was. We all just actually really got on well. But we were winning and when you’re winning right I think it’s much easier to get on people you you kind of forgo a bit of [ __ ] here and there and but when you lose we all speaking English but you can get by. Even I was trying to learn Spanish anyway. So I was trying to talk to the Spanish lads and a bit of Spanish and I knew a bit of French and that’s why I chat rubbish with the French guys and stuff like that. But when you’re losing fluent right so um but when you lose Oh my god. Honestly that’s Oh yeah these Spanish [ __ ] they No [ __ ] No. Yeah. So you’d see you’d see the real [ __ ] sides of people coming out and you’ see what they’re really made of and you’d see people wanting to go hiding, not wanting to play on a Saturday afternoon, faking injuries, being disruptive for just for being disruptive sake and because they’ve got like this two-year deal left or whatever. They can be [ __ ] They can do what they want because at the end of the day, they’re still going to get all that money put in their account at the end of the month. And it pisses you off. The good, honest, hardworking lads who aren’t necessarily the most flar players or whatever, we’d get shoved out the team to bring the more quality in, the more quality in, right? but then would start losing. They’d happily go missing. They would absolutely disappear. Pull an injury and then they’d have to bring the good lads back in again, the hard workers, the grafters, and that really does start to take its toll on you. It does honestly when you’re seeing people disappearing, not wanting to be there, being late for meetings, purposely being make late. You’re thinking you’re going out your way to be a [ __ ] and to go out that must be hard work. I always think that though when because obviously there’s a fine system and everything, right, at every club, but it go if you’re losing it goes out the window. Yeah. So you start off a season with all the best intentions and everybody’s sticking to it and it’s really tight ship right and every but then you’ll win win win a few and it’s great but you lo start losing you get on a little rut of stuff like that players are just n chucking their stuff around leaving stuff in the gym leaving stuff in the canteen not putting their plates away and stuff like that and it just gets forgotten that will get forgotten and if you forgot one that’s it everybody gets free rain then because he’ll go hold on you forgot that one last week you didn’t find him for that did you so I’m not getting fined oh wow so standards thing standards thing yeah but that’s like in fairness in rugby we’re probably luckier in that sense that you’ve got I mean the teams that you guys would have played with same here you’ve got a senior group yeah that’s not lucky though is it it’s not lucky no it’s not lucky but what you yeah what you’ve just said now it’s it’s almost it was almost impossible to enforce those fines and things whereas if somebody let’s just say like when you were starting you guys if Martin Johnson said to you you’re paying a10 fine or you hear that you’re you’re there with bells on it aren’t you pay 20 you pay 20 So, so you kind of like So that’s where and and again you look I you know watch a load of football and you see like the the the United dresser I’m a United fan and you know the the the class night and then you had the Roy Kees and the Palace and these types of characters who run who basically ran the dressing room and I think I always like the the the when Ferguson and Roy Keane had that big thing and he said no you’re running the dressing room and you’re taking over the dressing room said absolutely I’m running the dressing room that’s my reason why they were successful and and they paid the fines they kept us They’re c they’re kept to certain standards and but I can only imagine just how difficult it is with so many different cultures, nationalities, languages in they tried to they tried to use the fine system as it should be about not just not wanting to get fined, right? Because you’re keeping a standard then aren’t you right? So everybody’s keeping the standards. You’re being professional doing. So then what they tried to do with the fine system is people started to actually ignore it a little bit. So then they said, “Right, we’re going to up the fines.” So hopefully it actually hits you in the wallet and you’ll recognize it and you’ll realize it and you won’t want to part with 500 quid or a grand at the end of the month or whatever. But players are on so much money. If you try and find a player 500 quid or a grand or two grand for being late for this or missing this meeting bothered honestly I’ve had so many players go bothered. Oh well and he’s thinking gez. What chance you got though? You know what I mean? What chance if they’re not bothered by that what you said earlier and they’re not bothered by the pride of actually just breaking the rules then then you’ve got no chance. It goes back to what you said earlier about about money. Right. Yeah. That’s what it is. We’re um we’re uh I don’t think we’ve covered off three things on the list, but it’s been brilliant. Even started on We haven’t even started. So, are we going to do part two soon? 100%. And do the actual podcast. We need to do part two. Yeah. Talk about how Cough City are getting promoted this year. I think they are, mate. I think they are. Honestly, all the mates are fans. I love it as well. I like I do to be fair. I used to go watch quite a bit back in the day cuz Highfield Road. It was just they weren’t far from our house kind of. Yeah. And that’s the thing with football like growing up in Coventry, moving away from Coventry, the heartbeat of the city was Rubby was okay was football. Uh our producer Rob Sunderland Way uh Middlesbrough Middlesbrough Middlesbrough. Yeah. Heartbeat. Our other producer, my producer Sunderland. And you get these rundown cities and rundown towns. Their reference point for success is their football team. Yeah. Agreed. Do you know what I mean? That’s what I love. You know, I al you mentioned obviously with Lampard being being there. How I always think like and I know you said like a lot of the Championship boys in League One are earning good money and things now, but like he everybody knows he’s multi multi-millionaire, you know, he’s probably living in a very different areas to some of the younger players and things like that. How how does that He ain’t living in C. I can tell you that. He does. He lives where we live, doesn’t he? He lived down my street actually. He must be doing all right for himself. But how does that like how does that work when you know that you’ve got somebody like that or a real like a Guardiola and mate this is perfect timing right so um West Brom played Kov the other day actually Saturday afternoon and uh CV won 3-2 and um the goalie coach for um West Brom one of my best mates we were at their house on Saturday night after the game and was just talking about CV and he said they’re good team mate they are they’ll get promoted they’re a good team simple as that and we started talking about Frank Lampard and he said he’s the man he’s the man and he very rarely buzzes off certain people very rarely he went honestly Benny He’s the man. That’s cool to hear. Yeah. He said he’s got this like lovely aura about him, but not over the top. Not a [ __ ] not in your face, not like showy or anything. Just a lovely aura. Like he really cares and he works really hard. Um and he said, but even the players like the way they talk to the way he talks to them, but then the way they respond and talk back to him, everybody’s on a level. Everybody’s on the same page. And I was like, you know what I like about him is he’s not one of these fashionable managers. like, you know, you get these ones that that use the terminology and it’s all very trying to be seen a certain way, but he he just comes across like he does things the right way. He seems honest and like honest. Yeah. My favorite my favorite memory of Frank Lamb as a manager. Remember when the co games were going on? He was manager of Chelsea and Liverpool had just won the league and Jurgen Klopp I think was giving him something on the sidelines and he turned around to him. He said, “Oh, you’ve won one Premier League in the last 20 years and you’re giving it the big one now.” type of thing. Yeah, you can hear it across. Obviously, no no fans in the stands and things. So, um yeah, know he seems like uh seems like he’s doing Yeah, we like front pass. Do you go watch football now or not really? No, a few bits and bobs I’ll go and watch, but um no, most of weekends are taken up with He’s a rugby man now. Yeah, rugby man now. Yeah, went last week, didn’t I? Massive rugby fan now. Me, mate. Massive. I’m going to Six Nations in February. Wales game actually. Wales England. Yeah, it’s the seventh that one, isn’t it? So, we booked him for the seventh. He go to Ireland away. Yeah, we’re on holiday. We’re on holiday for that one. Yeah. So, we’re going to go down to the Wales. Knows when the games are. I ain’t got a clue. Proper rugby fun. No. So, the the the like I say, Twickham was incredible. Like first first experience of going to a proper international game and um the the stark contrast from from going to a rugby match to go to you’ve been saying it for years. I’m going to bo. But like everybody’s having a few points like you get there Guinness straight away. This ledge duck wrap. It was incredible. Cost you about 24 hours. It did. Yeah, it did. But it was incredible. It is different, isn’t it? Like you can’t I go to all sports games like cricket, football, darts, anything. And rugby is a thing where you can actually mingle and mingle. I love football, but I can’t take my kids to football. If I’m going to Wolves West Brom, right? If I’m going to WS West Brom, I’m I’m kind of looking over my shoulder. If I go to England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland. Oh yeah. It’s not a thought. I love the tribalism going to the football. Too tall. Sit that [ __ ] down. He’s 6′ n like you ain’t got nothing to worry about. Getting rinsed. Yeah. Well, I don’t know when they’ve had a few as well, mate. Still, I ain’t picking on you if I’m half cut, you know. No chance on this. I do want you to see it in I do like the you know, they started they started to do like a bit of um in the Prem, didn’t they? Like they they triled like fans in the way. Yeah, in rugby. It didn’t really work. Like I actually I actually used to like I played it we play we used to play a place called um Glouester Kings home and the shed I suppose is about as hostile away crowd as a rockus which they’re like giving it the e off if you miss a kick and um giving it and I actually like I I love that and I like I love the idea of like the way that when you score at the away from home the footballers they’re giving it sort of the big one in front of the away fans and you’re sort of having a bit of banter with the with it’s not banter though if I being a goalie I’m right next to them. I get to hear everything they say. It’s nasty, mate. What’s a nasty What’s the worst thing that that’s been mate? I’d have also had someone saying about hope your dog dies. Hope your your misses. Oh, you’re awful, mate. Honestly, different your dog and your misses. He loves a dog more, I think. But I imagine Yeah, cuz you you’re brutal, mate. Honestly, brutal. It’s the Green Street thing, the mob mentality, isn’t it? And again, that I there is a kind of dark romance that I do like. It goes back to the point of football uniting cities and towns and stuff like that. And that’s part of it because you know the Green Street thing where you get the accountants and stuff like that, the lawyers and then they turn into the weekend, you know. But is that maybe why the footballers aren’t as stereotypically approachable because of, you know, you you’ve just said you’ve you play 38 league games or 30 odd games a year and all of a sudden then you’re hearing everything like that. You probably don’t want to be as of course to to a man in the street or a lady. Wolves away, right? So, this is the best one, isn’t it? The wolves away story, right? We’re we’re warming up before the game. I was at West Brom at the time, so I’m going to get pouted. It’s Wolves. They’re like big derby, big rivals. And um there was a there was a mum on the front row. We’re just warming up still like 40 minutes before the game kicks off or whatever. So, there’s still plenty of seats about and stuff, empty. And uh I’m sort of like just waiting, chilling around or whatever. And she’s going, “Oh, Foster, [ __ ] off.” Right. And I’ve I’ve looked at her. She got a young kid next to her and and a slightly older kid must have been about 14 there and and this other kid is about 10. And I’ve looked at her and I’ve gone, you got your kids in front of you. Set an example, would you? And she went, “Fuck off.” It’s so funny seeing the kids flicking the bird. And even some of them are just they’re doing other stuff with the crowd now. They’re all getting caught in the Let me ask you one more thing before we go. Um, as goal kickers, right? The silence. He did it. Did you? What about you? What about you? No, I I’ve always I it was normal for me because Leicester was always silent, wasn’t it? Yeah. Lester, Leicester, Tomman Park, Monster, those places. Yeah. Um No. Did I hate I hated it when you got idiots shouting at you just in your runup because you when you’re trained to be in silence, which I was at Leicester, so your home crowd, you get booze and stuff and whistles, but it’s the one where it’s silent and there’s one idiot as you’re about to start your approach that you just hear. Yeah. always the few. There’s loads of booing and jering. It doesn’t matter. Yeah. What was the worst? I was I was the opposite. I used to love having being booed or when it wasn’t deathly silent because I used to want to, you know, you focus you a little bit more and I used to find when it was eerie silent and you could hear a pin drop whether it was at, you know, Leicester or Monster and those type of grounds or when you played Island Away. I used to find that then you realized every single set of eyes is kind of on you. Whereas when there’s a bit of booing, when you kind of zone out a little bit and you’re sort of thinking, okay, well, maybe not everyone’s fully clued in and everyone’s just sort of having a nice time. So, if it was silent during the penalty, yeah, I wouldn’t like it. I’m the same as you. I would rather I’d rather a bit I need background noise. I need a bit of background noise because you you can hear the one individual voice then and that one is normally the one that everyone can hear and then it starts everyone laughing and you just think, is it me? Are they laughing? It’s like the golfers, isn’t it? I’ve got a quick question about kicking then. Right. So, um, anytime England posts any like kicking videos on, and some of the England content is unreal, by the way, but, um, they always show the lads kicking and they have this like technique, and I’m sure it’s probably a coach thing that I’ve implemented into them as well, but when they aren’t, they they do the little hop and they look, they don’t even look where the ball’s gone. They’ve kicked it and they’re hopping and they’re still looking down. What are you saying about this? The hop in is ridiculous. I think I saw Marcus Smith do one the other day. I’m like, is that just for the camera? Yeah, I think that it must obviously you got to get your weight through the ball and the transfer of weight, but there’s this thing where they’re hopping around and it’s you watch Henry Slade do it. It doesn’t doesn’t hop. Marcus does it to a ridiculous Henry Slay did do one the other day. I saw it. It was in it was in the video. It was one of them. He didn’t do it in one and then did it afterwards and I thought, “Oh, you must do it.” been Johnny Wilkinson’s been he comes in once a week or with um into into England camp and he does a bit and that was basically Johnny getting his weight forward and then sort of hopping through for the for three or four hops afterwards and things. So, and then but then looking at the ground afterwards down kind of thing. I’ve never I was that was never me like that they’re very much it’s very it’s quite um not robotic but it’s very technical that you look at George he’s a very he’s a excellent kicker but he’s very technical. Yeah, whereas I was always a little bit a little bit of technique, but then you have to have a bit of feel and and things like that. So, I was never It’s the way Johnny coaches them and very technical. It broken it’s it’s broken down, isn’t it? Yeah. What about when you took a goal kick though? Cuz you always Was it just a momentum thing? Cuz when you always like hoofed it long, you would your head would kind of like be down. I’m just thinking that sometimes. Yeah. If you’re trying to m it. Yeah. But yours would almost stay down for a slightly extended period. Yeah. It depends what what kind of kick. If I’m trying to kick it as far as I could, then yeah, I’d do that. But if I’m trying to clip, I’m I’m virtually not even looking at the ball when I’m clipping it. So hard the goal like, you know, we don’t you think we’d be half decent at goal kicking, kicking a ball kind of thing. Yeah. The football the ball’s going right. Yeah, you got to strike it. Yeah. There’s a there’s a real technique to real pure strike. It’s lovely it is. But I’ve tried kicking the rugby balls. I actually really enjoy kicking the rugby from the back. I know. You don’t have to go my game. Thank god. It went my game. I think that’s us, isn’t it, guys? Yeah. Part two coming soon. Part two. Good fun. Cheers, lad. Love that. 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