‘We must break the cycle of impunity for Russian troops’: Ukrainian Nobel laureate O. Matviichuk

One of the world’s leading peace campaigners has told FRANCE 24 that the cycle of impunity for Russian troops must be broken to bring justice in Ukraine and prevent the “next Russian attack” on another nation. Oleksandra Matviichuk is head of the Ukrainian human rights organisation Center for Civil Liberties, one of the laureates of the 2022 Nobel Peace Prize. She works tirelessly to document war crimes in Ukraine, campaign for the release of illegally detained people in Russia and occupied Ukraine, and push for democratic reforms inside Ukraine. She spoke to us in Perspective.
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Now it’s time for today’s perspective on the program. And my guest today is a woman who knows more than anyone about the effects of war on the people of Ukraine. Alexandra Martuk is head of the Human Rights Organization, the Center for Civil Liberties Ukraine, the center that in 2022 won the Nobel Peace Prize. She works tirelessly to speak on peace, women’s issues, the plight of the vulnerable, as well as working to document the war crimes in Ukraine, campaigning as well for the release of illegally imprisoned people in Russia and the occupied Crimea, and as well campaigning for democratic reforms inside Ukraine. Well, she’s here in France of various events, including Ukraine and Soulet de Liberte or a wind of liberty at the theater of Concord, which starts tonight for three nights. And she joins us here on set. Thanks very much for coming in and talking to us on such a list of obviously interlin but at the same time different issues that you campaigned for and I thought we could tackle a few of them one at a time. I mean firstly war crimes in Ukraine of course there have been many of them. When large scale war started we united our efforts with dozens of organizations from different regions and built national network of local documentators. We covered the whole country including the occupied territories and working together we jointly documented more than 91,000 episodes of war crimes and while this war turns people into the numbers we are returning people their names. 91,000 I mean it’s an incredible number. Uh how on earth can you document all of that? We use different sources of information. We gathered testimonies of victims and witness of war crimes. We sent mobiles groups to work in the occupied territories. We analyze open data with further verification is the truth or not. And if something happened, for example, Russia hit the biggest children hospital in Kiev where children were treated from cancer, we are eligible to immediately send our local documentators to make photos, videos, speak with people and describe what happened. We live in 21st century. We have digital tools which help us to analyze what’s going on to communicate with people in occupied territories to identify perpetrators which we can’t even dream 30 years ago during the Balkans war. Great to document it, important to document it. Do you think though that uh one day anyone will actually be held accountable for any of them? I have no doubt. All this hell which we now face in Ukraine is result of total impunity which Russia enjoyed for decades. Russian troops committed horrible crime in Chichna, in Muldova, in Georgia, in Mali, in Libya, in Syria, in other countries of the world. They have never been punished. They believe they can do whatever they want. We must break this circle of impunity not just for people in Ukraine but in order to prevent a next Russian attack to the next nation. Let’s talk about some of the other issues as well. Those illegally imprisoned in Russia and of course in occupied areas of Ukraine. We have thousands and thousands of people who were legally detained according international law. Russia has no right to detain civilians but Russia did in enormous scope. I personally interviewed hundreds of people, men and women, who survived Russian captivity. They told me how they were beaten, raped, smashed into wooden boxes. Their fingers were cut, their nails were turned away, their nails were drilled, they were electrically shook through the genitalia. One woman told me how her eye was dragged out with a spoon. So knowing this detail, we have a clear understanding that part of this people have no chance to be alive till the end of Trump’s peace talk. So we must be vocal that Russia must relate them as quickly as possible. You mentioned women there. I know that’s something that you also campaign for specifically. Yes. And this is a very sad story because sexual abuse are widespread in Russian prison. Let me illustrate it because it’s not just numbers, it’s human beings. Just recently I met five-year-old girl occasionally in Kiev and we work with the case of her mother. Her mother is civilian. She lived in occupied territory. She has empathy to Ukraine. That’s why she was abducted. It’s not a crime for citizens in Ukraine to have empathy to their country. But she was illegally detained and she went through multiple gang rape. And then she was illegally transported to Russia and face fabricated criminal case. And probably adults told to this small girl that I’m an important person being a Nobel Peace Price lawyer. So she reached me, she hugged me, she started crying and she started to beg me, please return my mom and I felt broken. I’m professional human rights lawyer. I have no legal tools how to return your mom. So, do you feel like you’re doing what you can within obviously the incredible limits that you face? We are not doing enough. We are not doing enough. Even here in France, a lot of people have no idea what Russia is doing in occupied territories. And how can you put a stop to that? How can you improve that situation so that people do understand? I’m here on the TV and I’m very grateful for this opportunity and we launched international campaign which called people first campaign and we have different NOS’s in France who join to this campaign and support our efforts. So our thought is that if a lot of people in France and other countries will join to this campaign and we share this demand that people first in all political negotiations we will succeed. How difficult is it to get your voice heard? I mean there are obviously lots of other issues around the world which are also trying to get their stories if you like out there so that people understand. We know that Ukraine is not just hot spot in the globe. Unfortunately, there are a lot of other wars and unhuman regime who persecute and murder their own citizens. But people in France and people in European Union, they has no luxury not to pay attention what’s going on in Ukraine. Because if we not be able to stop Putin in Ukraine, he will go further and attack next country. He see Ukraine as a bridge to Europe. His logic is historical. He dreams about his legacy. He want to forcibly restore Russian empire and empire has a center but has no borders. Empire always strives to expand. You also um campaign within Ukraine as well. I mean last week of course there was a scandal of corruption within the Ukrainian uh government. We’ve also had uh President Trump calling for elections within Ukraine as well. I know that democratic reform is something you feel very strongly about. I think Ukrainians don’t need lessons about uh election. Uh we are we are not we don’t need to be lectured. In 2004 millions of people in Ukraine stood up their voice during orange revolution when our right to vote was stolen. So we value election. We value the right to vote. The problem is with the Russian war because during the war you can’t hold election. It’s prohibited by Ukrainian constitution. is prohibited by France constitution and yes when the war will stop and we will get security guarantees that it’s not just a pose for several days and several months so we can concentrate to recover our country and all democratic procedures we will organize elections there is no problem with it amid everything you just said what drives you what drives you personally as a human being um to do what you’re doing I know that all other efforts matter. There is no modest efforts when you face with such existential threat as a war. And always I’m inspired by people in Ukraine. I’m a human rights lawyer. I have no legal tools how to stop Russian atrocities. But I know that I can rely on people and ordinary people can have a much greater power that they even imagine ordinary people will change history. And bearing in mind that as well, I mean is it possible still to to have hope to think that change will come? I have to say that we must to define the word hope properly. Hope it’s not a confidence that everything will be fine. Hope it’s a deep understanding that all other efforts have a huge meaning. Good to have you with us on the program today. Thank you very much for coming in and talking to us. Alexandra Matt Vashuk, head of the human rights organization, the Center for Deliberal Liberties Ukraine, the center that won the Nobel Peace Prize back in 2022. So, good to have you with us talking to us on the specific today when the Nobel Peace Prize should be handed over uh for 2025. Thanks very much once again.