Giro di Lombardia 2025 preview: Can Tadej Pogačar break another record? | Beyond the Podium

Phil Liggett and Christian Vande Velde preview the final classic event of the cycling season, the Giro di Lombardia, where Tadej Pogacar is looking to add to his legacy by winning an unprecedented fifth consecutive edition of this race. The guys compare his legacy to Eddie Merckx’s and discuss how Pogacar’s passion makes him such a dominant force while his aggression makes him fun to watch. They also unpack how Red Bull-Bora will try to set Remco Evenepoel up for a hot start and a shot at upsetting the favorite before making their podium picks and analyzing how Juan Ayuso will fit in with Lidl-Trek. #Cycling #BeyondThePodium #nbcsports

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Giro di Lombardia 2025 preview: Can Tadej Pogačar break another record? | Beyond the Podium
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Tad is going to attack. Let’s face it, they all know it. He’s proved it for the last races and before the world to etc. He’s going to attack by halfway. I I still have faith in Remco that he’s going to be up there. I think he has that kind of form and ambition. Maybe most importantly, he is he just wants it so badly. Hello everybody and welcome back to Beyond the Podium. I’m of course Phil Ligot and here we are to chat about the last monument of again what has been an extraordinary season. I’m talking about Iladia, the tour of Lombardi. And of course that man Tad Pagatcha who’s won it for the last four years is now going to try and make it five in a row and no one has ever done that. Is he lining himself up for another record? Well, one man who might know the answer is Christian Vanderel. Christian, welcome. I haven’t seen you since I to France. How are you? Great, Phil. Good to see you as well. Uh, look, I I think that everyone has the answer and that’s Teddy most likely is going to win this bad boy. Um, I I don’t I don’t see how you would get bet against him right now, Phil. And, you know, we’re talking about going up against the true greats as far as statistics goes and going against Kopi. I mean, we’ve been talking about Merks a lot, but when you started bringing back Fostto Copi, he’s the only one who’s ever won five Ila Martinez, and consider he’s doing them all in a row as well, Phil. I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know where he gets to wake up in the morning to continue to go go this hard all the time. Okay, Christian. Well, we’re going to go and we’re going to dissect the Girodel Lombardia, but first of all, um you’ve got a lot of bikes behind you, though. No, let me ask you the question. Have you ever ridden the tour long boat? You must have done. Yeah, I did it only one time. Um, I I I wasn’t fantastic form, but I was doing with the and CSC and I think geez 20 years ago. Oh my god. 20 years ago, Phil. Uh, yeah. So, we had a great time doing Yeah, you think about it. Back then, Andy Schlech, I think, was 18 or 19 years old. He was his first big classic that he did. Um, we had a great time, of course, before and after the race. I think we did a decent race, but it’s it’s an incredible race. Um, it’s a mix and match of true like moto GP racing your bike down those descents and up the climbs. Um, it’s a very aggressive race as well. Um, but yeah, it’s it’s a it’s a you have to be a complete bike rider to do well there. And again, who else is the best there? Tatty Pagotcha. I think you’re right. But it is a different race. It is the one that really announces the end of the year. I know we’ve got Parure to come, but it’s always been the race of the falling leaves, the autumn race that ends the whole season. And it is indeed the last monument of the year, but it is a very hard course for this end of the year, isn’t it? Oh, big time. It really it it’s a question of who has the most left in their tank, who’s motivated to do well in the FA because there’s a lot of points on the line. If you have good form at the end of the year, you could garner a ton of points there for the UCI. So, uh, you know, you have all the the semi-classics before that with in the Italian races and Taddyy won one of those, Trey Valley, just this last week and of course the Europeans before that and the World Championships before that. So, he’s been on a run, my friend. So, yeah, it’s there. It’s an incredible race, but this is the really the culmination of all those races put together and it’s by and far and large the biggest one by a long shot and like you said, a very difficult race as well. A lot of climbing, twists and turns. You race just as hard going up the hills as good going down. Okay. Well, we’re making our own record today, Christian, because I think this is the first time I’ve done Beyond the Podium with you. So, it’s good to see you. And you seem to be in your garage or something. Who’s What are all these bikes you got hanging around? I I got some good bikes, actually. I got a new one in here that I’m happy to show you. I have This is my This is my little office. It’s not so good here. But these are some some bikes you might recogn’s old bike that I used to actually I raced that when I was a junior. Obviously a little bit too big for me. Um it’s my first tour bike. Uh got the speaking of Italy and got the pink jersey and that bike. But more importantly, um this is my my old 1996 tamper suit bike from GT, the super bike, um from USA Cycling. This is incredible. And just to give you the the difference between these two, this is my dad’s 72 bike from Munich Olympics. I mean, look how crazy that was. 24 years. I mean I mean obviously this is all banned, isn’t it, Phil? You have to have a top tube. You have to have obviously you can’t the tubes are all complete, but state-of-the-art. Um it’s very heavy, but um it’s absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. Well, you’ve gone from the old looking bike there, the type I used to ride, right through to the modern inium. But I’m just wondering which one is your favorite. You must have a favorite, surely. Do you ever ride them, by the way? I I don’t I rode I rode my old tour bike when there when somebody was telling us that we all had uh this one up here, that Trek when people were saying that we all had engines in our bikes. I was like, come on, man. We couldn’t get good wheels, let alone nano technology. Um I I love the old Mercs to be honest. Sean’s bike that that’s when I was a kid. I really I really thought a lot about that and that that was that was my dream to be on a team like Motorola and I I think that Sean Yates is one of the coolest guys ever. So another we got another Brit there. We got Cavs jersey up on the wall from Beck and Sky. Um you got a lot of stuff. The PR guy for Motorola. Do you remember the PR guy from Motorola? I barely remember him. I barely remember the PR guy used to come over to our house and drink all the scotch. Mr. Paul Sherin. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when he got the I was working with him already on television, you know, and uh well, he was so happy because he was a great friend with Jim Ovitz who ran the team and uh and he he felt very much at home and you guys got the results for him, so you made him even happier. Yeah. Anyway, Phil, what about what about you? What what jersey you got back on on your wall up there? Uh that’s a mayo genre of the tour to France. I didn’t word it by the way during my 53 tours I think it is. But a couple of years ago Christian stepped up behind me very private little presentation and he sat tapped me on the shoulder and I turned around and said Christian he goes this is for you. I said my yes because you have done 50 tours and I promise you this is the first time I have ever signed the mayo for anybody and it’s for you. So I burst into tears of course and now it’s on the wall. Uh and there’s two signers on it actually. There’s Jeb Blanc as well who’d signed it in the morning and when we arrived at Calala uh where the race finished that’s when he made the presentation and Jeie doesn’t Jeb Blanc is one of the only two surviving um race directors of the tour to France Felix Leon Jack they’ve all passed on now so they’re both on that jersey you can see over my shoulder I’m very proud of that’s awesome love it super and I can see why every so let’s get on to it now. The last classic of the year, we call it the Mon. It’s a long for the time of the year, but hey, these guys these last few months seem to be getting the miles in with the World Championships in Rwanda, but there’s only been one man dominating the whole of the season, as he seems to all the time. He doesn’t race much. Now, his record, I alluded to at the top of the show, was he’s won it the last four years straight. So, if he wins it for a fifth time straight, he’s the first one to do it. You mentioned that FTO copy also won it five times but he only got four straight and then one in the early 50s 54 from memory. So uh now the question is can he do it but there are people in there and one you know I’m just here’s the first question Isaac Del Toro his teammate has won 18 races I think this year 15 races 15 races this year and he’s won the last five or six he’s taken part in. Are we going to see a double cross? What do you reckon? Man’s on four. Not yet, Bill. Not yet. I He’s the youngster. I I have a lot of time for as del. He’s incredible bike rider. If there’s anyone who could take the reigns from Tatty in the future, it is this kid. I mean, first of all, Mexican rider. We haven’t seen anyone like this since Raul Alkala. None were even close. And maybe Raul could even race his bike as fast as what we’re seeing with the the bull from Isaac Del Toro. So, I I love to say that, but yeah, when I was looking through the start list, I’m like thinking, okay, well, apart from his teammates and Isaac Del Tour, and if he was on a different team, yeah, I think he might give him a little bit of shove, but same time, Phil, you saw what happened, you know, at the World Championships, he he’s just on a different level. I mean, Isaac was the only one who was able to go with Teddy, but just Tatty just having a little bit more in the tank at all times. And that’s really been the common theme, the common thread that we continue to see that maybe one or two riders could go at Teddy, but he could continue to continue to pound out this infernal pace. And they usually keep him within 45 seconds to a minute. You could say that maybe Teddy’s feathering that gap or you could say that he’s falling apart one way or the other. It doesn’t really matter. He’s still ahead of them and chasing. Um, you know, when you go down the list, Evan Pull’s going to be there again. He’s obviously has fantastic form. I mean, you saw what he did in the time trial in the world championships in Rwanda, but that was insane how fast he was. Of course, European Championships. Um, but it’s a different different scenario, different conversation altogether when you’re talking about 200 plus kilometers with a lot of climbing and what Tatty could do on his terrain. You know, I think the best quote that I saw this last week was Matthew Vanderpole. And, you know, Matthew Vanderpool, you have to say, is is one of the best one-day riders we’ve ever seen, right? and he says that but on Tad’s terrain there’s nothing you could do about it. You can’t do anything against this guy. You could train differently. You could I’m sure Vanderpull work on a sprint to make sure if he ever does come headtohead with this guy, he’s going to win 10 times out of 10. But apart from that, I mean, you’ve seen tactics being put in play. You see teams going on the front. And eventually, it looks like they’re almost working for Tatty, making it easier for him to win. So, I don’t know what you do. You know, I don’t know what you do when you’re at the drawing board thinking about what you’re going to do tomorrow morning in the race. You know, how are you going to go about him apart from having uh any kind of crashes or mechanicals and taking advantage of that? It’s it’s really hard, Phil, to to see someone else not being on that top step tomorrow. I mean, it’s going to be a great race. There’s no doubt about it. And I’m not saying that Teddy isn’t suffering, you know, while he’s doing this. It’s not easy for him. But sure, man, we’re sitting on the couch watching this at home. It sure does look kind of easy, doesn’t it? Sometimes. Yeah. Well, I’ll come to Tatty again in a moment, but with the with Tatty, there’s no tactics anyway. He just breaks away between 70 and 100 kilometers from the finish. That’s what he does. And go with him if you can. And the answer is so far nobody’s been able to go with him. What’s the secret to his success? First of all, my opinion, he races only when he wants to and there’s big gaps between his race days. I think he’s done about 44 race days this year. Now, in Eddie Merks’s day, he did 60 to 100 days racing a year. He doesn’t race much, Teddy. He just goes away and prepares for his targets. And is that his secret? I think I I truly think still his secret is that he truly enjoys it. You know, I think he this is a still a game to him. I don’t think it’s a profession. I know it’s a it’s at some point in time in everyone’s career, it changes from having fun to, you know, clocking in every day and making sure you’re you’re fit enough to race. So, as of right now, as long as he continues to enjoy what he’s doing, I think we’re going to see the best come out of him. And we saw a little bit of a changing, and you probably realize this as well, like during the tour to France, I don’t think he was having a good time. I think he was ready for that race to get over with. You know, thinking about if if he goes and wins another stage, he’s wrong. he’s he’s being greedy. If he doesn’t race and let somebody else win, well, he’s not going as hard as he was caught catch 22. So, I think truly his superpower above and beyond being the best of all time is just how much fun he’s having um out there. And, you know, the way he gets up for these races day in day out after he’s already won so much already. I mean, he can be forgiven for mailing in once in a while, but he doesn’t. He doesn’t. So, I think as as long as he’s still enjoying it, as long as he’s ticking those boxes and and looking forward to these races, good luck to everybody else. And that I’ve always said makes him so difficult to beat because he loves racing his bike. Christian, it looks as though the sun has just come up. I know it’s a lot earlier with you. Can you just pull the drapes? I’m hiding. I don’t That’s better. There we go. That’s a little better. It’s I don’t know. It’s getting worse. A very opportune position seeing the World Championship jersey behind you there, Christian, because of course he’ll be in his world championship jersey tomorrow, Teddy. Now, the question is beginning to sort of pople around the business now is is Taddyy winning too often to keep the viewers on television? Um, personally I love to watch him do it because he takes his chance. He often doesn’t know if he’s misjudged the move. He just does it. But do you think the I’m not talking about the the expert cyclist, but the people just watching television. I mean, I had the same problem when I was a journalist when Eddie Mks won everything. Literally everything. I used to ring my newspaper and ask for my word count for the story and the first question they asked was, “Has Eddie Merks one?” And I’d say, “Yes.” Then they said just give us a bit because we’re not European reporters. I was in Britain. So they didn’t want a big story when Eddie won after a while. Now with Teddy, I love watching him race and I agree with you. But do you think he’s becoming a bit of a turnoff for the general public because he wins too much? I I I understand that side. I I understand that side, you know, and the only thing that I was able to watch that was such a dominant force really was Tiger Woods and of course Michael Jordan. and being from Chicago, you know, we were definitely biased in that that point of view. So, I was always looking forward to seeing Michael win in the Bulls. Um, but yeah, you know, I think the second that we see him not be as aggressive, I think we’ll we’ll miss it, Phil. And so I think one it’s one of those things to appreciate what we’re getting to watch right now because the second this is gone we’re going to be upset about it you know and I think a great you know stage you remember in the tour to France for example was stage 21 without Ted in the yellow jersey risking life and limb and going full gas would that have been as good of a stage as it was I don’t think so Phil you know he lit that race up and he didn’t need to second third fourth fifth place they already they all set up at the bottom of Marmont they didn’t have to race because the time was all taken the last time or the third time across the line. So, I applaud him for continuously risking everything day in day out these crazy attacks from 70 80 kilometers ago like you just mentioned. Um, but yeah, I I get it. I understand I understand both sides, you know, and I I just continue to remind myself as well because I I see the the headlines. I see the comments. I see how people what they’re saying and I truly understand that side. And you want to see a race that’s competitive and you want to see guys who but you have to also I remind myself that these guys right behind him are incredible athletes. It’s not like he’s in a junior race. He is racing the best in the world. These guys are riding faster than they ever have. It’s a more competitive pelaton that we’ve ever seen in the history of cycling. But yet he is still and which makes it even more incredible that we’re even having this conversation Phil that we’re bringing up Merks we’re bringing up copiing now I mean this is something I never thought would ever happen but I want to turn to you Phil cuz you actually got the witness and you like you just said to actually commentate on all of the reign of Mr. Mks and how was that compared to what you’re seeing here today? Well, I used to interview bike riders of the day. The cool was one and we were riding the AMS gold race. Well, we weren’t. I was there. And I wrote to I walked up to with a camera and said, “Who’s going to win today?” And he just looked at me. He said, “Well, if Eddie wants to win today, then we all ride for second place.” That was before the race even started. That’s what he said. Eddie himself, he’d always say, “Well, we’ll see.” You know he he but he would tell the riders in the race he I remember another case in the Amsterd race he said to the guys one guy in the race he said I’m attacking at this point on the next circuit you can come if you like he told the guys where he was going to attack and then of course well everybody loved Eddie around the world except the French but the French really loved Eddie when he stayed in the tour to France back in 1975 when he basically fractured his skull on a crash at the base of the cer liier. He crashed on the colder telegraph in the neutralized zone and hit his face just about here. So this bone was cracked. The doctors put out a radio call saying that they took no responsibility for Mr. Merks because he refuses to abandon and he refused to abandon for the next two weeks of the tour to France. every day he came to the commentary line and he grabbed hold of the what was then scaffolding where we were commenting on and the whole scaffolding shook because he was shaking like a leaf when he crossed the line uh and the Belgian journalist waiting to say the words I don’t start tomorrow but he never did so fast forward to the finish on the shel and the very first time the race ever finished there and the French television were wore suits now they never wore suits they always wore jeans but they had the best suits Oxford live on television with the president of France and they went Eddie Murks had pulled on his world championship jersey because it’s no longer had it was lost to Bernard Te who during that two weeks had become a pretty strong bike ride to say the least and Eddie uh then the commentator said to Jean Millio was said to Eddie Eddie you’re about to lose your first of he’d won every one he’d written five and he looked at Jean and he said No, I haven’t lost it. Oh, he said, “You’re 2 minutes behind.” Yeah. And as soon as the flag drops, I’m going to attack. Tony went bright red in the face. I’m going to attack cuz we never raced Shan Cise before and it’s a long climb to the Octal and hard. Eddie went so fast that um Tony A just held his back wheel puffing and was bright red in the face. They went out of sight of the pelon and then Eddie did the whole lap about seven kilometers. Came back to the start finish line for lap number two. He looked at Bernard and he said, “Now you’ve won the tour to France.” And the next morning, the press had gone from hating Eddie Merks of beating the French so often to the greatest man that ever rode a bike. And that’s that’s stuck ever since. If you saw the welcome Eddie got a few years ago when the race started in Brussels, you you know what? But but Phil, apart from the nostalgia, because it’s always, you know, just just like I mentioned with with what I thought of Michael, I mean, these guys both had a crazy thirst for winning. I mean, Eddie, there’s stories of Eddie, even for the smaller races, just ready to sell Axel Merks’s son, for the win. He’s ready to go at all times. You know, he wants it so badly. But what was there a time though that where people were kind of over it like you’re you’re kind of alluding to with with Tatty where they’re just like oh again here we go again Edd’s going to take the win um you know back in the UK for example like you just mentioned they just oh I’ll just write me a small blurb if there isn’t somebody else who’s competitive with Eddie. Yeah. Well I don’t work in newspapers anymore. I don’t know what really coverage they get here but the TV coverage is immense. Uh and Pad and Tad is the man who comes on screen. No, this guy’s right. He’s too exciting uh to to I think bore the viewers. He goes and you know and he just goes and there are those that go with him as we know and he just waits for his next moment, breaks them and rides alone. He doesn’t care how many kilometers he is from the finish. And he doubts himself sometimes too as he did in the world championship two years ago last year rather when he went in the last 100k and thought boy I’ve done I’ve made a big mistake but he didn’t he won the race. No I think it’s a great moment for everybody. They talk about Eddie Merks and Tad they argue the greatest of all time. I don’t think they stand comparison anymore. They are two of the best bike riders we’ve ever seen. And there’s no doubt that the best rider currently is Tad. But the one man who I want to see get even closer and who’s crossed the line in second place these last couple of races with a ry grin on his face beaten again. No idea how to work out Taddyy is of course Remco Evan apart. Now, let’s not forget he’s got bad memories of Lombardi with his crash on the wall of Serrano when he went downhill and off the end and that was back in 19 well 19 2020 I think just around the co time 2020. Well, now he’s back and he’s on for and he’s finished second to Tatty since then last year in fact in the event. Uh all right he was three minutes behind shades of the old tatty at the moment. He doesn’t win by seconds anymore. wins by minutes. But there’s no doubt in my mind that Remco is going to put on a heck of a show for us against Taddyy this time out. And he go with every move he delivers and see if he can last longer. I agree with that. I agree with that. And I I had almost forgotten. You know, it’s easy to forget the trials and tribulations a rider will go through in the short career that Remco’s already had. and thinking about him falling off the that bridge and going into Ravine and the injuries that he sustained there, the injuries that he got over already just this last year when he got doored by a postal worker in Belgium in last December. Um the season he’s put together this year, you have to take your head off to him yet again and then switching teams to Bora going forward. It’ll be interesting to see if they could crack the code a little bit closer, get get closer to him as far as this progress and when he goes and able to be able to respond to this. And you know, so many people talk about, well, you just have to work on your one minute, two minute power. Well, like, well, what about the 7 to 10 minutes that we’ve been going at 450 watts, 500 watts before he does that one or two minute power? It’s there there’s so many different variables that he puts into play. and even attacking in Trey Valley, he was attacking on Descent and that’s where he really got his really buffer and no one was able to bring him back again afterwards. So, um yeah, I think Remco is is this guy that we’ll definitely continue to to focus on. Um as far as the grand tours goes, he still needs to work on that as far as what he could do in the high mountains, but there’s no doubt he’s one of the best, if not the best time travels we’ve ever seen. I mean, he is an absolute bullet. What he did to Filipo Ghana at the Europeans was is incredible. And of course, what he did to Tatty Bigaga himself in the world championships in Rwanda was amazing. So, I’m with you, Phil. I’m I’m really looking forward to see the project that is going to be Remco going forward in 26 with Bora Hansro and Red Bull, excuse me. Um, but you know, you always want to be the one being chased, not the one you’re chasing someone, especially, you don’t want to be chasing Tadipagotcha. And when he does get that gap in life and in the race this weekend, uh it is not to bring him easy to bring him back. And and how do you you really mitigate that gap of form and bring that back to at least be able to stay on the wheel to see the finish line when he sees the finish line and not a minute behind like you just mentioned. Um there’s a lot of work to be done over this winter time. to get this race done. And I’m sure as far as Red Bull goes, they’re already thinking about ways to get Bremco up to speed just a little bit more to be able to be competitive with Teddy. I agree. Now, Teddy won his first two tours of Lombodi in a sprint finish. Well, only a couple of riders, but he was it was a sprint. Then he went out uh 23, would it be 23? Yeah, that was his third victory. and he won by 50 50 odd seconds against Bajoli and the rest were a bit back. Last year he won by over three minutes. So he’s making steady improvements in he two sprints to 56 second and and then 3 minutes 16 seconds be beating Remco. But I I still foresee I foresee a great race and don’t forget we’re going round the different route. We’re in the opposite direction this year which is becoming someone give a a fashion with the organizers now. were going from Ko to Bergamo. Uh and in two years ago we went from Bergamo to Como. Same winner. We’ll just see if it works out again. But it means that the the climbs have climbed in reverse. So the the difficult climbs can be quite harder going towards Bergamo than they are towards Ko. So we can get the viewers in a real te commentating on the race on Saturday. Although that won’t be my privilege. I’m going to watch it. Um, yeah, I think it’s a great course and and it’s in the most beautiful area of Italy and of course we go past the highly religious place of the Madonna DJ. Let’s look down at the other challenges and my favorite rider of the year because he never stops trying. You probably know I’m going to say it. Ben Hill. What a magical. And he got third in the world on the most ridiculously tough course I think I’ve ever seen in my life. Again, the same winner. Perfect for Tad. But Ben comes up and gets the bronze medal and salutes like he’s won the goal because that’s how first of all Taday makes you the runners up feel very special because they’ve got that close to him. But what about Ben to finish off a crowning glory of a season and get a podium at least in Lombardi? I think for sure that Ben is one of the riders that I would put, especially if it’s a difficult race, if especially if they’re making the race very hard from distance, just trying to risk everything because that’s pretty much what many of these teams need to do. Um, Ben is that rider who can absorb the punishment of a very hard day and still pretty much have the same kind of speed he had when he started the race. He’s not an incredibly quick rider, but he is so darn strong. to think about the the best diesel rider we’ve ever seen in a compact person. So, he could climb well, he could ride well. He’s incredibly aerodynamic on the flats. Um, and he just never gives up, Phil. I mean, watching this guy day in day out going to those breakaways from the motorcycle was so fun to watch. I mean, this kid gave everything. Then there was days when he was going for the jersey. I mean, absolutely turning himself inside out with all the riders just sitting on his wheel, sitting behind him. And so, I’m with you. I I’m a massive fan of this kid. Um to see what he could do, especially in these one-day races where it’s just full gas all day long, which most likely it will be. And so I think it plays into his hands for sure. Um you know, Remco like we just mentioned, Ben Healey, Primos Roglish, uh Pelazari on on Red Bull as well, incredible rider who did really well in the VA. It’s just a question of who’s going to take Massagris, who’s going to still have any gas in the tank late into the season, especially like I just mentioned with Pelazari after the Walta Espa. These guys got to be a little bit exhausted. Um, scalosa is another one from Le. I think he could have a great race. Um, I’ve been incredibly impressed with his teammate. Uh, that would be Tom Sque. Tom’s another guy who is always up there somehow. Always up there. celebrity. Yeah. When when is when is he gonna get a look, Phil? When is he going to be a protected rider on here? He’s getting older as well. I mean, Tom’s has been up in this game for a long time. He’s he’s been there for a long time, especially the and but as far as being a leader on the team, it really wasn’t until uh last spring where we really saw him come to the forefront and have confidence in himself. Um, but back to his team at Schmos. I think that he’s one of those guys um that really could do something from distance. Um, you he’s the only one of everyone who beat Teddy up straight up this year as well. You think of Amsel Gold in the sprint. Um, that was the only one. So, you know, we we have some some little bit of reason to have a little bit of faith that Tatty won’t be the only one who’s going to win this race five times in a row, but um it’s going to be hard hard to beat him. I’ve got to be honest. Um I’m I’m making a lot of beer out of Tad because I’ve got a guy who rings me up. He lives in France and and he’s usually in Switzerland or he’s on the big tours. He always sends me a text saying, “Okay, bet your point on who’s going to win today.” And I would go back and say, “Bagotcha.” I always got first shout. And now we’re in situation where I’ve I’ve said tomorrow double or quit. I’ll give him all his beer back, which I haven’t claimed yet. I if Pagatcha doesn’t win. Otherwise, I get double. So, I’ll get twice as much if Pog wins tomorrow. And so, my local pub here will welcome me in with open heart and all the money will come in Swiss Franks. Do they still have Swiss Franks? I’m not sure. I think they do. They do. Well, I’m I’m I’m glad you could walk home from that pub. I’m glad glad it’s close enough and Trish doesn’t have to go and pick you up. She’s she’s a good driver. Yeah. And she doesn’t like I’ll be safe there. The only name I I think of the um Christian is uh Oscar Onley. I’d like to see Oscar finish a great season. He’s developed well this year. Great tour to France, fourth in the tour. He loves climbs. um he hasn’t got the overall strength of Tad, but uh if he can get in the move because Tad will get a breakaway going before half distance. It’s 150 miles tomorrow and uh Tad will get that break underway and Rem Ramco will will also come in and uh and offer his word. I don’t think Tad is going to attack. Let’s face it, they all know it. He’s proved it for the last races from before the world in tour etc. He’s going to attack by halfway. He will be so it’s 240k 240k. Yes. Or 120k. He’s coming to his magic 100. He’d be looking for moves all the time. Might be an early breakaway. He’ll have to get across to it. Remco marks him wherever he goes. Always does. But I like Remco because he often attacks first. just unfortunately Teddy catches him and he can’t cope with Tatty when he gets up there. But I I like I’d love Remco to win. I really would. I think that guy’s a real racer and his was bad luck I hope is now all behind him. Well, as far as attacking, I I don’t know what’s going to be, you know, the difference being with this is that now he has his trade team behind him yet again as opposed to the Europeans and in the world championships he was part of the Slovenian national team. So, that is a completely different story. I mean, this team that’s starting this race is ridiculous. They have plenty of riders who could all go to the finish line, be on the podium. But you mentioned already Isaac Del Toro. So, I think they’re going to go just so hard, Phil, that there’s going to be not many riders left. And if you think about they’re going on the Jazala, for example, that’s where I think everything’s going to go completely sideways. And if you have someone like Del Toro setting tempo or attacking and he’s on his wheel, I don’t think there’s too many people in the world who actually can go with him to be honest with you. So I mean, especially if you think that if Del Toro is working for someone else, so that means he could go above and beyond his limit and not have to worry about holding that form to the finish line and Tatty Bian on his wheel. Oh my goodness. I mean, who’s going to be able to go with that? So, I think it might be a little bit more together. There’s going to be those dangerous breakaways. There’s going to be the riders like most likely Healey is going to go from distance at some point in time. He’s a very aggressive rider and that’s why we all love him and big fans of Healey. Um so most likely a very strong breakway and I think that UEE is just going to complete continue driving and driving and then go from distance, you know, and I think that’s really been but Catty’s fast as well. Let’s not forget about that. He’s a very quick rider to the to the finish line. So I mean being the freshest at the finish line helps a lot as well. So you don’t necessarily have to be the fastest at the when the race starts, but at the finish line, it’s a completely different kettle of fish. So, you know, it’s over 10,000 ft of climbing, like I mentioned, very treacherous descents as we’ve seen and talked about with Removal going over the bridge a couple years ago, quite a few years ago. Um, but yeah, that that’s the way I see it playing out just just because the team is so strong and we have one race left to go all in for Ted. make this a a race to remember for a long time with five in a row. And who’s going to break that record? Well, last year was very special. He did what they now call the triple crown. He won the tour the Gio and France. Um only the third guy to do that. This year he’s virtually repeated his whole whole last season. So I suppose there’ll be another book coming out at the end of the year. We have to call it something else. Four time five times winner of the year of Lombardi. I don’t know. Okay. So, we’ve decided on the winner. Who’s going to podium second and third? Nemo, I’ve got one more question for you after that. Uh, I I definitely think it’s it’s going to be I I still have faith in Remco that he’s going to be up there. I think he has that kind of form and ambition maybe most importantly. He is he just wants it so badly. Um, third place, that’s that’s going to be a tossup. Um, I would love to see Ben Healey. Um, it’d be interesting to see if uh Roglish could get up there. He was looking okay in Trey Valley. He was one of the guys who was up there. So I I’m looking for a rider of his kind of caliber sitting behind him. And then maybe outside with Skeleos. Skeleos is back on the upswing as well. Well, your first three names are my podium as well. Um so it’s looking pretty predictable and I hope. But I would like to see an intruder in there as well. But I just like seeing these guys race. They’re so exciting. We never had so many guys near the top that put on such big races and they’re not afraid to go for Taddyy who’s having a bit of a problem controlling him. Well, that’s all tomorrow of course and it gets underway pretty. It’s a long day in the saddle of the roads as you pointed out very dangerous in the area around Ko very narrow steep descents and we’ll be without Matts Pettison because he’s now had to call an early end to his career season and also Rand Paul has already retired for the season. So, let’s go on then. Now, uh, first of all, I don’t actually know, but UAE, they’ve set the record for the most wins in any one season, which they took over from HTC, as Mark Cavendish reminded me on Wednesday when I had lunch with him here in London. And he um, he was on the HTC team that used to lead it, then it became UAE. But have they gone over the 90 mark? Because I’ll be honest, I haven’t checked. And that this whole string of wins by Del Toro may have gone over the 90 mark for the team wins in one year. They have they have and you know Yeah. And I I raced against those guys. I think that was 2009 I believe with HC when they were just on a roll and they had incredible rides. You think of Griel, uh, Cav, of course, uh, it was it was honestly it was endless list of young riders, Tony Martin, uh, they just, yeah, Bosen Hogan, I mean, Edva was incredible that year. Uh, so I again this conversation of, you know, with Kopi, with Merks and Ted, and then now with teams, these records that we never thought would ever be broken again, and now now we’re seeing all come to fruition. So, what are they going to be able to do? You know, Auso is leaving the team next year. I I I like to see the the spreading out of the wealth. I would love to see some other riders. You know, we just talked about Isa Del Toro. I would love to see Isaac Del Toro go to a different team in the near future. I don’t want all these guys being on one team. I I want to see we all want to see these racers racing against each other, you know, like just kind of like we were talking about Liv and PGA Tour going forward. We want to see the best of the best just like at the Masters. We want to see these guys go head-to-head against each other and really push each other. So, it’d be interesting to see how well UAE is able to hold on to that because are you going to be able to get your nod in the future if you’re Isaac Delta, if Teddy Pig is sitting next to you? Of course you’re not. I mean, this guy’s already won this five times, you know? So, you have to think about ways to get to the front and really to have that support system around you. So, um, it is I I like what we’re seeing. We’re starting to see a little bit more of a spreading out. We’re going to see some big riders going to Inos, which is which is nice. Uh, we’re going to see like I just mentioned with Ausu going over Lethal Trek, even though Scalos was not exactly excited about that one. My next question. That’s what I was going to say. Yeah. What do you think I’m going over there? I don’t I don’t know. I mean, that that’s he’s going to have to change his mindset. I mean, I’m not going to read into too much what happened with UAE and Aayauso, but you have to because that’s all we have to go off of right now and and how he was as a teammate. And I will say that Leot, they don’t play that game. They don’t play that game at all. Those guys are are amazing group of characters that all are in for one another. I mean, you see what they all do for Mads Person and Mads Person for his teammates. You have with one of the best riders in the world going tooth and nail for his teammates. that that is a sight to behold. So, he’s going to have to have a little bit change in his his mindset going forward. And um I’m willing to believe in whatever happened in UA’s behind him and he’s going to turn the page and go to lead Trek and but yeah, uh Scale must have didn’t mince words too much. He was not impressed with the way it all went down or the lack of uh correspondence and communication with himself and the team. Um so yeah, we we’ll see how that goes. But it’ll be fun. you know, we’re seeing more drama, that’s for sure, over these last two years we’ve seen in a long time. Um, maybe not used to it. You know, we’re not used to seeing these dramatic uh scenes coming out of the teams like this. You know, we’ve had with Remco trying to leave the team for a while now. He finally did with in splitting his contract. The same thing with IUSO. Um, some pretty harsh words being, you know, put from the staff or the front management of UEIE and back and forth calling them dictators. That’s pretty rough um with Ausso. So yeah, it’s been fun to watch as a spectator and hopefully uh any news is good news these days. Well, the enjoying lead, they’ve had a tremendous season anyway and they’re always a very aggressive team both in the men and the women in fact. Uh but with uh Ausso on the team, you’ve got the the big toughies like Mads Patterson who’ll be in full swing again next year alongside him. You got scale Mosa. There are a number of riders in that team now who might feel that with one they’ve got somebody to really attack with to possibly break the spirit of the UAE perhaps. By the way, it’s 92 wins. We have the best producer in the world. Don’t Christian. He just whispered in my ear that 92 wins for UAE this season and we haven’t seen the end of it yet. But I think we’re going to have to spread the big names around now. Uh, and I think if Del Torto has a really good year next year, and I’m sure he will. He’s only a kid and he’s six years old. He’s six years younger. Um, I think we’re going to see with these team changes, the teams might be answering our question about how long can Pagatcha keep winning and Llek will probably lead the way with that. Yeah, I mean, it’s becoming top sport, isn’t it, Phil? I mean, just like you would with football, soccer, and same thing goes especially with American football. You have to risk so much for your quarterback. You have to make them the franchise player and pay them obscene amount of money. And if someone gets hurt, they get hurt, they don’t work out, they don’t play, they don’t perform the way you thought. But you have to take the risk. Without taking those kind of risks, you’re never going to know. And I I think that Le had to take that risk on a a true marquee GC rider. Um something that they don’t truly have. She almost had some bad luck. That was a horrible crash that he had this year yet again in the tour to France. Um, so I I think they Yeah, I I I wouldn’t say that that was a bad move by them. I mean, we don’t know until we actually see what happens, this comes to fruition, but um yeah, it’s it truly is becoming top sport as far as the pays go. You know, these are big riders these days. They’re they’re franchise players who are playing paying an obscene amount of money um and just hoping that they’re going to be able to perform at the top step. And really, it’s all about the tour to France. How do you perform during the tour to France? that is truly the top watermark apart the jurro of course is massive and the walt is great but it is all eyes on the tour to France um you know still to this day if you say that I was what would you do for a living I was a professional biker and they don’t get it you say I did the tour France like oh you know if I said that you’re an Italian they’d probably be like that’s the United States but uh it’s I know it’s different year you’re around but it’s true though isn’t it no it’s absolutely true it’s the same here in the UK Okay. When I tell people in the UK I’m a commentator, what sport you commentator on? I said mostly cycling, they go blank on because they don’t really appreciate just how hard a sport it is. Uh or how entertaining. And this year has been a great year of entertainment. We went to the first world in Rwanda. We saw the best ride in the world scalp the field and it was a great field. They only sent climbers because no spinder would have lived in Rwanda. It’s impossible. Anyway, Christian, that’s it. We’re going to see the last monument tomorrow. We’re gonna enjoy it. If um if you don’t pick the winner, by the way, you owe me a point. But apart from that, I’m looking forward to next year working alongside you. Good to see you, mate. You have a good Christmas, too, if I don’t speak to you again. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, I hope to talk to you before then, Phil. [Laughter] I might get even know. All right. Take care. See you, Phil. Great to see you. Well, all the very best. Have enjoy the race tomorrow. You too. For all your cycling content year round, subscribe to NBC Sports YouTube page. We got it all.