Pogacar’s solo masterclass vs. Remco’s frustration: Is the GOAT debate over? | Beyond the Podium

Brent Bookwalter and Tejay Van Garderen unpack Tadej Pogacar’s statement victory in the men’s road race at the 2025 UCI Road World Championships, where he defended his title in a brilliant solo attack and Remco Evenepoel claimed silver despite experiencing several mechanical difficulties along the way. With this in mind, they dive into the greatest of all time debate, wondering if it’s officially over after yet another epic performance from Pogacar. #Cycling #BeyondThePodium #nbcsports

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Pogacar’s solo masterclass vs. Remco’s frustration: Is the GOAT debate over? | Beyond the Podium
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It was beyond what was just that’s an athletic performance that I’m a little frustrated with. That was more like, okay, man, you you’re putting on a big show right now, but I think you just got beat and you need to like handle it with class and dignity. I I like my champions. I like my goats also. Gracious. I like him joyful. I love the the carefree nature of Tade and how he’s so inspired and vibrant and alive. So yeah, TAD day for me right now is we are watching the greatest of all time. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Beyond the Podium. We got a number of topics to get into. Namely, the world championships dominated by Tadi Pagotcher, big surprise, and also Remco Evanapool winning the time trial, but then looking a little disappointed after the road race. Uh, we also have Trek, Leal Trek, winning the one Iuso sweep stakes. So, we’re gonna get into all of that and let me welcome in my studio buddy, former teammate Brent Bookwalter. Brent, how have you been, buddy? What’s going on, TJ? Good to see you, man. Thanks for uh manning the mic and doing the host duties today. We uh just so everyone knows, TJ flipped a coin to determine who was going to do the little intro and the host today. So, uh the world is on his side for hosting. So TJ, thanks for uh thanks for hosting. Thanks for having me. And yeah, man, I feel like honestly I’m already in the cycling offseason. Not that I’m racing anymore, but I’m like looking at my watch on the clock and going, man, these guys, these ladies, everyone’s still racing bikes. It’s still full throttle, world championships week. Um, so I did enjoy it, but I got to admit, man, like the leaves are changing, falls in the air. I’ve been enjoying uh some trail running and being on my mountain bike a little bit. And um once again grateful I’m not racing even if I am still enjoying the coverage. So how about how about your man? I think you’re back in May orca and uh no directing at the Worlds this year for you if I’m not mistaken. No, I did not go to the Worlds. Uh but I will be directing a big Italian block starting with Jirro Delilia and ending with Gord Lombardi. So still plenty of racing on my plate. And I hear you Brent. I mean I think you know me. You’ve seen me at the Worlds a few times. like I was definitely in offseason mode even though I was still racing like but nowadays the riders they are just like so fit and so motivated and so hungry from from January all the way till the end of October and I don’t know how they just keep the throttle on that long and to be able to stay that motivated and that fit but like when what we just saw at uh at Kengali Rwanda you’re just like these guys are traveling all over the world in end of September and still just like giving at the business. I mean, I I I I can see you snickering a little bit right now. The way I would show up to the world sometimes, it was like, okay, I was a little bit checked out. I was kind of there just to hang out and have a good time. But, um, but you definitely had some really strong rides at the Worlds. I have good memories of Worlds, TJ. Yeah. And I remember some also you being there with team you as a teammate. I always love the chance to race with our fellow Americans. Uh, yeah. Yeah, I think for me, you know, not I wasn’t at the level of a headliner US rider um like you you were you were leading the tour to France and winning a bunch of races through the year. For me, the world was really important because it was a it was a chance to race with my compatriots. Uh it was a selection based race. I had felt like I had to fight my way onto the team, which I was always motivated to do. And then, yeah, I was I was pretty proud of some of the rides. Um I did snuck into the top 20 uh at the Richmond Worlds, I believe, and maybe once more. Um, but man, the season is so long and the world’s always so demanding. They always seem to the UCI usually creates a pretty uh interesting course in terms of the the prelude and is it too hard for the sprinters? Is it is it too easy for the climbers? All this dynamics of how the race is going to play out. Um, and the the road race like we focus on and we’re going to focus on today is just one piece of this big world’s week. It’s a it’s a massive week. And as a rider, especially if you’re riding the time trial and the road race, that’s a that’s a huge chunk of your season. And some of my memories from worlds with you relate to that because you’d often race the time trial. I’d come in, you’d already have been there and you you’d basically squeezed out every team. The team time trial. The team time trial, too. Yeah. And one of my favorites is I think it was in Holland. I show up to worlds for the road race a few days before. You had just done an awesome ride in the TT. I think you were fourth, maybe Taylor Finny was third. I was. Um, so yeah, phenomenal rides. You’re just off the podium. And I’m I’m looking at that thinking like, “All right, we’re in the mix. We got two guys that were on the podium in the TT. I’m coming in fresh. Like, we’re going to do something in this road race.” I show up to the hotel. You and Finny are just surrounded by empty wine bottles. Just just have totally just ripped the offseason band-aid off. And I’m looking at you and you both said something like, “Well, if it happened, it needed to happen or or something, but you basically just pulled the rip cord and cut free.” Um, and yeah, you know, there’s a limit to all of our willpower. Well, I definitely wish I could have stuck it out a little bit longer because it would have been nice to really give the Worlds a good, honest shot, but like you said, the season was so long. I don’t know how the guys do it these days, but I admire the heck out of them. But, uh, yeah, like you were just talking about with the course, um, it’s always this sort of mixed bag of like, oh, is it going to be too hard? Is it going to be too easy? Like, what what’s gonna happen? But I think looking at this course that we saw in Rwanda, which by the way, hats off to the UCI for even making it happen. There were whispers and rumors all year saying like, are they just going to host it in Switzerland again? Are we going to be able to get there? Are people going to be even motivated to go? But we saw a star-studded field and the race was just for me it was spectacular. The scenery was beautiful, the crowds, they showed up in droves, and uh it looked like they put on a great great event. But looking at the parkour itself, it was no surprise what was going to happen. The the best riders, the best climbers, the the grand tour stars, they were going to be the ones, you know, running the show. And and that’s what ended up happening. So, I’m not going to lie to you, Brent. Um, when I I in typical bike racer fashion, you know, typical cycling fan fashion, I put the race on in the morning. I see the early breakaway get established and I think, okay, good. I’m going to go on a bike ride, you know, not a big not a big one, but I was like two two and a half hours. I’ll be out there, stop at a coffee shop, I’ll get back right when the race heats up. And uh, by the time the race act like by the time I got home, I was like, the race was already exploded. And I was like, what happened? I had to rewind and like see what was going on. I don’t know what I was thinking because the races people are always going from 100 kilometers out or 150 kilometers out. But yeah, in the beginning it looked like pretty much to the script. Slovenia, Belgium, even our USA boys, they were pulling for uh for Quinn Simmons, you know, after he he must have been riding high after his result in Montreal. But then Tade, he just ups the tempo on the climb with 105 km to go. drops Remco Evanapool straight from his wheel and it ends up being just Iuso, Del Toro and Taid. And it didn’t look like TAD was saying I want to just attack and explode the race right now. It looked like he was actually being a little bit smart. He wanted people to go with him. Auso blew up and then Del Toro. Now that was a headscratcher for me because it looks like they were trying to call the neutral car in. The gap was only like around 50 seconds, 50 45 seconds. So, not far enough to allow the team cars to get up to him. I don’t know if he needed a a bottle or if he had a mechanical or what was going on, but Tata clearly wanted Del Toro with him. He did not want to go that far solo. What do you think happened to Del Toro? I still don’t know, man. Yeah. Well, just going back to what you said about this, this is the era of Tade Paga, which means 100 km to go attacks are now the norm. I think it’s important just to sit on that for a second. That is in the long history of the World Championships, that is not the way Worlds is traditionally raced. Yeah, we’ve seen it now two years in a row, but going back to my first elite worlds in I think it was 2008 in Verce, that was my first sampling of the elite category, the professionals at the World Championships. It was just this massive build and crescendo. Always always on a almost always on a lap. these worlds courses always on a circuit, always on a lap, which is its own dynamic. I think really important to point out it’s not apples to apples in 5,000 meters of climbing in the in the Alps and then 5,000 meters of climbing on a circuit. But yeah, the historic style of world championships is just early break and then faster, faster, faster, faster. The race explodes from behind. You have the best guys at the front. Real exciting last couple laps. We have a we have a winner. No, those days are long gone. Tai Pag gotcha 100k to go and the fact like we I talk about the whole year his team is so deep really interesting that of course then he’s going to have competitors in the worlds that are his trade teammates I think that would have been premeditated that was designed that was thought about definite uh when we can look at Auso and Del Toro both trade team teammates but I think important to note that Del Toro is going to be TAD’s teammate next year I Uso is not. We can get into that drama, that debate a little bit later. But absolutely what you were saying that Tade wanted Del Toro with him. He was he he wanted him there. He was hoping to have him there. He was expecting, “Yeah, if I go on this climb, I know at least one of my teammates, if not two of them, are going to going to come with me.” And he wanted him there. He needed him. So when Del Toro wasn’t there anymore, Yeah. Tade had to recalculate, commit, but he’s not going back. He’s not relenting. This is This is Tade. he’s going to full send and go for it. Although that there was full focus, you know, it wasn’t it wasn’t reckless. He wasn’t out there blowing kisses with 100k to go, waving at people. This was it was full accountability to his effort and investment there. So, we heard from Del Toro after the race. He talked about having a bad stomach, which yeah, in 100 or 260 km world championship race that’s on circuits. My first my first thought goes to the challenge of eating, of the feed zones, of getting the proper nutrition. These guys, it’s yeah, these are the best riders in the world. There’s nothing left to chance. But when you go race with your national team, it isn’t the same swan years. It isn’t the same surplus stock of nutrition that you’re used to using that’s just lined with the bus and stuffed in all the team cars. For that matter, the team cars in terms of nutrition are almost a moot point at the Worlds. You’re, you know, we’re zinging around these laps. You’re going through the feed zones. What I remember from Worlds, the feed zones alone were just absolute anarchy. My first Worlds, I couldn’t get a Museette. I couldn’t even get a bottle. It was so hectic. All the feeders out in the course pinch down. Um, so yeah, whether whether Doro had had a bad day just in terms of his stomach or these laps, the different national team nutrition, the different national team support structure played a role, who knows? I think all those are potential factors. But yeah, Tade left alone up there with Yeah. nearly 70 kilometers to go. What what a performance. And uh yeah, a little bit a little bit sad I think for for Del Toro because it really was a situation where being a trade teammate of Ted Pagotas and knowing that Tade needed and wanted someone like an ally like Del Toro there, what a great chance to get on the podium at Worlds. So yeah, a bit of a a bit off a miss opportunity. Seeing del Toro’s finish line interview. I didn’t really get much of that remorse or frustration. He was definitely a little bubbly with just the the relief of being through such a heinously hard World’s race and that yeah that sort of national team end of the season vibe and that the best man won and we’re all okay. But um honestly not not what I was expecting in terms of seeing Tade go alone even though we’ve seen him so many times before. I thought Auso and Del Toro and for that matter Remco Evol uh would have been with them longer than they were. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of things to touch on what you just said there in terms of nutrition for a 260 km race as opposed to say a 200 km race, you’re now racing for another hour and a half. So if these guys are hitting like 90 to 120 grams an hour, now you have another hour to factor into that. I don’t know how anyone’s stomach can handle that. And yeah, maybe they had some of their nutrition that they’ve been using from their trade teams that they’re accustomed to, that they’re used to, that they know that their stomach can handle. But if he’s just there with the the support from the Mexican Federation, they might have their own sponsors, they might have their own products, they might be, you know, using Gatorade instead of Power Aid or, you know, like uh whatever. So that’s that’s definitely a huge thing. But another thing that you touched on, Brent, was uh was the format of the worlds. There was one piece that you um I agreed with everything you said, but I think there’s one key piece that you left out and that’s the early break usually goes, but then around uh 100 to 120k to go, you usually get this strong mid-ra move. What Tade has done tactically and because he’s so good to do this is he’s eliminated that mid-ra move in that 2008 uh World Championships that you were talking about. It was won by Alessandro Bologon and I remember because I remember seeing Robert Hynink up there, Mattie Breel was up there, Damiano Kunigo was up there and and there was somebody from Spain up there. So in the in in the Pelaton you had uh Paulo Batini who was the defending champion and the favorite. You had Oscar Ferrer who had won three times, but they were all kind of blocked and they’re like uhoh, we all have teammates represented. Who’s going to chase? And nobody ended up chasing and that mid-ra move ended up winning. That happens sometimes at the Worlds and that’s always a really big risk cuz that mid-ra move. It’s a legit dangerous move that TAD said, “I don’t want to deal with that thing. So, I’m just going to get out ahead of it and I’m going to force this selection of the best riders early.” I He I don’t think he wanted to go solo. He He didn’t put in one of those ferocious attacks. it. I was surprised to see Remco Evanapool drop just straight off his back wheel, but uh I was I was thinking it was going to be like, okay, let’s let’s make this mid race move the race of the favorites to eliminate that sort of tactical liability. Um which is actually brilliant, but you also have the leg have to have the legs to race full gas for 100k in the final of a 260k race. hearing these guys talk, more riders, listening to some of their I love listening to the post-race interviews and getting some of those insights. The reality was TAD was the only one that wasn’t talking about doing a full gas raceinning effort with 100K to go. Everyone else was just on their knees thinking like I don’t know how like they’re they’re looking at the effort. They’re feeling the effort they’re doing and they’re thinking this is going to end badly. There’s no way we can sustain this. TAD was the only one that had that bit of like calculated metered effort in there. And one of the one of the interesting perplexing calculated and metered at seven watts per kilo though. Yeah. Absolutely nuts. Yeah. And that’s and that’s why we’re consistently having the goat conversation with Tade. When one of the things I found interesting when Toro and Aauso went with Tade Ao especially when they went on to the downhill Auso was pulling like like full gang busters like just totally governors off sending it and I’m looking at that going like man you’re either feeling really good or this is some sort of like weird ego like yeah I can pull through with I’m going to show everyone that I’m not sitting on I’m not taking it easy. So, I think there was a little bit of the trade team thing happening there. I think there was a little bit of the the sort of saga of Ausso and his ego there mid race happening there. Um, anyone else who’s with Tade in that situation, they are not pulling like that, especially on a downhill. You’re you’re thinking, yeah, they don’t have radios in their year. They’re at the Worlds. So, they don’t need but they don’t need a director to tell them. They don’t need to say sit on them, stay calm, at least catch your breath and recover from that searing acceleration that Todd did over the climb. So to me, that was a head scratcher for Meuso. And if anything, that almost painted the picture of like, ooh, he’s not backing himself. Because if he really was backing himself, he would have been riding more metered, more calmly, more consistently, and actually looking at TAD like a a competitor instead of a long shot hail and Mary like probably don’t have a chance to stay with him, so might as well just just pull and rip it with him. Yeah. No, I I agree completely. It was like as soon as the road tilted upward, he was just gone. And I I think Tade didn’t even attack there. Isaac Del Toro just went to the front and just kind of kept the pace going and uh Auso just exploded and you’re like what were you doing pulling and sending it full gas on the downhill if you are just going to drop the wheel as soon as it goes up again like you should know your body a little bit better than that but that’s probably some a little bit more of the youth and uh some of the inexperience and also yeah like you mentioned some of the ego of uh of one Iuso and hopefully he’ll need to grow up a little bit before he’s able to actually get on the top step of one of these big ones which he’s knocking on the door on. He’s a he’s a mega talent. Um but let’s move on to the other uh excuse me element in this race and that’s Remco Evanapool. So we just talked about how he dropped the wheel from TAD and it looked like okay he’s he’s just done. His day is over. He was going backwards. he was getting passed by like like 20 riders on this on this climb. And then he gets this mysterious bike change and then another bike change. And then he ends up in this in this move together with uh it was Skeleos and Ben Healey. And he ends up working well with them, working well together with them until finally he makes this attack, a solo bid, and ends up silver medal. Now, I just want to now shift gears a little bit back to the time trial because he did just win the time trial in dominating fashion. He caught Tad Pagotch for 2 minutes, puts another 20 seconds into him. I mean, we’re having goat conversations about Tad Pagotch and here’s a guy who catches him for two minutes. What does Tade do after that race? He goes up to Remco, gives him a big smile, big hug, extends his hand, says, “Congratulations. Hey man, you had a great ride today. Chapo, hats off. That was a really, really big contrast in emotions to what Remco did at the end of the road race. He was sulking. He was whining. And I I got to say I I like someone who’s a little bit, you know, I like someone who cares. I remember uh after the JRO, you and I were talking about Del Toro, how he lost the Giriro and he just seemed to be like kiking with some other guys and snapping selfies and all that, but you kind of got the sense like, man, shouldn’t you be a little upset? Remco, I I don’t know. I It was beyond what was just that’s an athletic performance that I’m a little frustrated with. That was more like, okay, man, you you’re putting on a big show right now, but I think you just got beat and you need to like handle it with class and dignity the way that the way that Tade did when you just won. Yeah, there’s definitely a lot of bitterness, frustration, and I dare say like we’re reading between the lines, so I’m listening to the interviews. I’m watching the body language just like you described. But yeah, it’s almost a little bit of of resentment. And I don’t know if it’s to tade particularly some it’s a it’s a factor it’s a culmination of factors with the bike the mechanical situation the world’s course dynamic probably not having his usual team information and radio but I agree TJ I would have liked to have seen a um an eloquent gracious um Remco in defeat because at the end at the end of the day like his his performance was actually quite amazing when you look at the adversity that he had to overcome with the bike changes, with the sub-optimal conditions that he he still did a ride that he could have been, I thought, really really proud of. And the fact that there was a little bit of that that pouting, that frustration or almost resentment, I think does take away from his ride a little bit. But again, we we’re not we’re not there. We’re not in the the Belgian camp. I think some of this does go into the Belgian real quick. I just want to stop you mid thought and just to talk about all these sort of mechanicals that Remco is having. And I’m not ever going to insinuate that it it wasn’t real, but I do find it oddly suspicious that he he he’s definitely one for the dramatic flare. You know, I remember the time trial in the tour to France last year. He starts banging his rear wheel and we thought, “Oh my god, does he is he going to have to have a bike change?” And he was like, “No, no, no. I heard a firecracker go off and there was this and that.” It’s a good one. There was also this weird bike change during the Olympics when he was a mile ahead and I I was like when I’ve rewatched the footage of that, he rips it around this corner, gets off his bike, and it’s with 4K to go. Even if he had like a slow puncture now with like the uh the inner tubes, I wouldn’t even risk a bike change. I would probably just like you let the sealant, you know, seal that thing. You only have 4K to go. It’s probably going to cost you less time to just go. But I I I think he likes those big dramatic moments and uh I was even reading it sounded like his saddle slipped a little bit and um you know his pedal stroke was a little bit off so he goes to his spare bike but then he wants to get back to his original bike. just stay on your spare bike or you know we saw Tade even like making an adjustment mid race uh with I I don’t know if it was the thing that for his uh his power meter I he was like his mechanic just handed him something and I feel like when these sort of things happen with with Remco he likes to make this big gigantic dramatic show out of it when really he should just have the attitude of get on with it man keep racing it it That’s perplexing. You know, I bet somewhere on the depths of the internet there is someone who has taken the video footage of Remco when he was getting dropped, done some sort of virtual angle finder with his knee, reference that angle and saddle position to what he usually rides, and maybe could tell us how low his saddle actually did slide down. But it it is a um it’s a a very drastic dramatic reaction for uh a saddle being a little off. And yeah, if your saddle does slide down, that is going to affect you a lot um in a race as long as the World Championships, the the bit of a the bone head move for me was the fact that his his spare bike that his second spare bike that he got on, then the fact that the saddle level wasn’t wasn’t accurately positioned, that’s a bit of an amateur move. I mean, you’ve we’ve raced professionally enough to know and we’ve we’ve gone through that ourselves, TJ. You get on your spare bike, you curse yourself for not properly checking that thing out before the race. But that’s something you do when your neopro year, maybe even you’ve been pro for three years, five years. But we’re talking Remco Evanpole, a favorite to win the world championships. He hasn’t been on both of his spare bikes enough to guarantee and have complete confidence that he can get on those things and boogie and roll. That that’s a little bit of a a professional failing to me. Once again, maybe a little bit of the caveat is national team mechanics, national team structure. It is there is a difference. Different people with their hands on his bike, but still, I’m not buying it. So, the first bike change, saddle slipping, yeah, get off it, change it. But then when you got to change bikes again, that’s on you, man. That that bike should have that that was your responsibility to make sure that’s handled. And and I’m I’m with you, too. the Remco used to be a soccer player and we got to see some of the soccer form as he’s kicking and and throwing his hands and uh I love the enthusiasm, man, but it’s not it’s not serving you well in terms of being the the rival for Tatagotcha that you you are you want to be and that he said he was going there to be. So yeah, a a little bit when we look at the whole Ramco Evan pole performance picture, letting those circumstances get into his head a little too much, not preparing technically, methodically, and meticulously as a contender of the World Championships. We hope would. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, you you’re probably the best person to speak about this, Brent, because you have a a degree now in sports psychology. I think um some people they just have the just get on with it mentality and some people they start throwing their toys out of their pram. Um and Remco is definitely like that I need things perfect and that’s a little bit of a time travelers mentality. We’re always like you know you were a time travel trailer, I was a time travel trailer. You know, we go into the wind tunnel. We have everything dialed down to the millimeter. But uh and I’m sure that if he got on a spare bike, even just like not having the seat, the saddle actually like worn in sometimes like that, you know, that you feel that and it just doesn’t feel right, you know, like a new pair of underwear needs a couple of washes before it really feels comfortable, right? So, um it could have just been that. But yeah, I mean uh but I do think that Tad Pagotcha, he just doesn’t let those kind of things or those kind of issues bother him. I think if his saddle had slipped, he probably would have still attacked and been off the front and be like, “Get my team car. Okay, let’s do a quick change.” But up until that point, he probably would have just been like, “Just just forget about it. We’ll deal with it when we can deal with it or not.” Um, and then yeah, his his spare bike, he would have never gone back to another bike from his spare bike. He just would have gotten on with it. I mean, one of the best examples I can think of of that was in the 2017 tour to France, Rioberto Ron, his uh his derailure gets stuck in crash mode. So, he’s in the smallest gear, like the smallest cog in the back. So, the biggest gear, and he can’t shift out of that. He can only shift into the big ring in the front and the little ring in the back. He tries to get a bike change, but they said, “Oh, yeah, your spare bike was uh there was some issue. I don’t remember what it was, but he had to stay on that bike.” Um, and basically he’s just like, “Okay.” So, he was doing like massive big gear efforts, stayed with the group and sprints for the stage victory. Like he he didn’t he won the stage get being stuck in the small cog. Like whereas Remco Evanapool if he were in that situation no way man it would have been he would have been kicking soccer balls all over the field. What a what a good example of contrasting styles TJ. You have Rigo the Colombian uh carefree fiesta man of the people. Uh yeah soon to be the president of of Colombia. And then you have Evanool who is you know Remco is he’s the chosen one. He is the next Eddie Mks. He’s from World Cycling’s Heartland of Belgium. the he’s the junior rider who won the World Championships, coming across the line with tears pouring out, shaking with his bike above his hand as a as a 17-year-old, feeling the weight of the shoulder, his nation on his shoulders, but also wanting to carry that responsibility. So, what what like what an awesome um contrasting of styles, Rio and Remco. And I would definitely say that it would serve Remco well to have a little bit of that that rego mainly in the the sort of acceptance and moving on from it. And we we see it we saw it even in Tade when he crashed in the tour to France this year. You saw him hit the ground completely by surprise. You saw the frustration and the the annoyance like burst out of him with that one sort of like hit and shake. He very was very quick to then aim his attention, aim his focus, accept the frustration, and then move on to what am I doing now that’s going to best support me? Where I feel like Remco, he still he has a bit of that breakdown and the transition from from the acceptance of what’s happening to where are you putting your attention and your focus that’s going to best serve you. It’s not going to serve you to be kicking the air. It’s might not even serve you in that moment to be changing the bike, stopping as you mentioned in the Olympics that that that that stop was like that is not serving him at all. Uh so I do think like looking at the whole big picture of Remco Evan pole factoring in he is still a young rider. He’s not young in maturity or in depth of how much he’s competed the level he’s competing at, but he is Belgian. He is still quite young. He has he does have the the pressure of the nation on him. I haven’t been back to Belgium in a while and watched the the Belgian media coverage, but every time I go back there, I am blown away and dumbfounded by the microscope, the amplitude, the flashing lights, the technoblare, like that is on these guys all the time. So, I think that starts to seep in and burrow into the the the deepness of Remco. and it does sort of like create some cracks and allow that energy to burst out in an unproductive way. So yeah, I hope for Remco, you know, if he’s going to win the tour to France someday, whether Tade Pagacha is there or not, even if he’s going to win without TD there, that is going to be this piece of his performance evolution that I think does need to be accounted for and and worked on deliberately and strategically in terms of how he’s aiming that attention, how he’s uh not really getting his emotion under control. Like the frustration is okay. It’s more about how he moves on from it and what he does with it in the moment. Brent, you know, I wish you would have taken all these classes before like while we were teammates so that way you could have imparted some of this on me when we were rooming together in the tour to France. That would have been awesome cuz I could have definitely used some of that wisdom that you’re uh that you’re dropping on us right now. But I mean, let’s not forget Remco Evanapool. We can’t throw too much shade on him. I feel like we’ve been giving him a hard time. He is walking away from Rwanda with uh a world championships in the time trial and a silver medal in the road race. I mean, you really can’t ask for much better than that. So, even if he is disappointed, I think he can hold his head high knowing that, you know what, he’s still one of the best in the world. But before we get to the main story of the day, Tai Pagotch, I just want to touch very briefly on my EF Education Easy Post rider, Ben Healey, who also had a rockstar ride. like he finished third place, but when he crossed that line, you could tell like he he like dissed in the air. Like he was super pumped. He was almost like he all for him, I think it was a win. He celebrated it like a win and I’m going to get to work with him in Italy. So, we had a lot of fun watching him in the tour to France and he’s holding that form beautifully. Um, so I just want to give a little shout out to him because he’s always a fan favorite and uh we all love him. I I can’t wait to uh work with him again. But no, TJ, let’s sit on that a second. I think even that picture of the top, three, top five, it’s also telling and insightful on the World Championships dynamic, this this circuit race, this steel cage match, this like last man standing, everyone just coming apart at the seams. The top three guys, Tadpaga, Remco, Evanpole, Ben Healey, in addition to their grand tour prowess, these guys are, as you would call them, one day race headbangers. These guys are the steel cage matched one day ride one day race headbangers and that that goes to show again the dem unique demands of this race. Yeah, you you also see Grand Tour uh superstars perform at the one, but I think when you look at even Del Toro Ausso versus the top three we ended up with, they’re not quite they’re not these oneday race specialists that are able to like brawl around the steel cage for seven hours and explode and still like have that tactical clarity. Ben Healey, I love it. him and him and Matias Skelemos, they were going at each other for that podium place and it meant a lot to him and poor Scalmos, a man just sort of dejected, wanted that podium place so badly. Um, but yeah, I I love the battle even that occurs within the top 10. And also in that note, like honorable mention, I think also for going down the list to our fifth place, Tom Sque this guy, what a what a gamer at the Worlds. like yeah he’s not a today pagotaa may probably going to win the worlds but his consistency the amount of top fives top 10s he’s had in the worlds the recent years once again this just depth of versatility also one of these one day headbangers and it should also be mentioned with a rider like Tom Scoins from Latvia he never goes to the worlds with teammates or support like he doesn’t he doesn’t go with an eightman roster and they’re not borrowing a bus and they’re not having like a fleet of mechanics and swaners and directors his director is probably having to share a car with another nation and that’s how they get their support there if when you’re from one of these countries that doesn’t have a cycling background or a gigantic federation with a ton of money. But he probably had to pay his own way down there. He he probably had to fill up his own water bottles, pump up his own tires. I mean, he’s probably getting support from Little Trek, who maybe they’ve sent some some personnel down there to help out like riders within that team, but he’s he’s really down there on his own, but he it means that much to him to be there representing his nation and competing there at a chance for a result. And he gave 100%. He could not have gotten any more out of himself. And he came through with a solid fifth place. And that is just like a man I I feel like most guys in a situation of a small nation like that going having to go down to Africa. It’s expensive. You have to take vaccinations to get there. You you have to interrupt your season and you you know travel for sure plenty of excuses not to perform or not to even go. Like I think a lot of riders in his situation would have been like you know what I’m just going to sit this one out and wait for a a more convenient World Championships or a better course. But he’s like, “No, I’m I’m shooting my shot, taking my chance. I’m not letting any of these chances go.” And so, you know, huge huge shapo to him. But yeah, also Ben Healey and everyone that you just mentioned, I mean, all these guys are they’re champions. But the main man of the day, we have to just talk about Tad Pagotch, back-to-back world champions. Uh, the last person to win back-toback tour worlds was Eddie Mks. Eddie Mks is considered the GOAT. Well, now it’s TD. Now it’s TD. The last person since Tade to do that was Eddie Mks. Where is Ed where is Tad Pagotcher to you in the GOAT conversation? I think he’s there. I know you’re you’re going to you’re going to push back. I know for his um he needs some additional tour to France wins. The my bias is mostly it’s recency bias. The reality is I didn’t get to witness the Merks era like I am the Tata era. So I didn’t I didn’t see it. I didn’t get to feel the emotion of it. I didn’t get to um witness the crushing that Merks delivered to his competitors. I know he was aptly named the cannibal for good reason because he ate everything and everyone. But just the fact that ah it’s it’s a generational bias really for me that I I wasn’t there to witness it. I wasn’t there to feel it and see it. Um, I’m also going to tip it to Tade because I love the the charisma. Um, I love what you described, the part of Tade that you described in his congratulations to Remco when he was in defeat uh in the time trial. To me, that is also the mark of a legend of a champion. And some some people would argue, so we’re this is down to personal preference now in a champion. I I like my champions. I like my goats also gracious. I like him joyful. I love the the carefree nature of TAD and how he’s so inspired and vibrant and alive. So yeah, Tade for me right now is we are watching the greatest of all time and whether he’s whether it’s right now or in another three years, he’s there for me. Yeah. No, I What do you think, TJ? I gotta tell you, I I I honestly I don’t disagree with you. I I recognize that Eddie Mks was in a different era. And I’m not knocking eras, but that was an era before the collapse of the Iron Curtain. So, you didn’t have all the Eastern blockers there. You didn’t really have the Australians and the Americans coming over to Europe to race. That happened kind of a little bit later like in the next generation in the Bernardino era of racing. That’s when like Leamond and uh and 7-Eleven and all those guys came over. So, I feel like cycling was a much smaller world back then. Um, so I I I do think that it is more competitive these days than it was. However, when you look at the stats of Eddie Mks, five Tour to France, but also I think it was five GRO and of Welta and he’s won Yeah. You remember going to races, Brent, and every time you’d get a road book, you’d flip to the back and it would have all the past winners of all the races. And you would never look to see if Eddie Merks had won. You would look to see how many times Eddie Merks won. So yeah, I do think that Tidy Pagatra is the most versatile rider we’ve ever seen. He is He’s capable of winning on any terrain. He’s He’s phenomenal. I think I do want to see a couple of these records fall though before I’m willing to crown you. You are the GOAT. And I don’t know. I I know that what you’re saying is that you didn’t get to watch Eddie Mks. Look, I watched Michael Jordan, not his entire career, maybe like the past the last three years after he made his baseball comeback, but to me that almost kind of adds to the legend. It was kind of pre-social media. It was pre all of this. You just saw clips and highlights and and maybe a game or or race or something that you would watch and it just made him like this godlike figure. Now that you can kind of look at him on Instagram and he’s doing all this stuff and clowning for the cameras and basically everyone knows what he ate for breakfast every morning, it just it takes away a little bit of that aura of that godlike allure, you know, like I heard people talking about Michael Jordan walking into a room and it just looked like he was floating, like he was levitating. Um, now Tad Pagotch, he definitely has that effect. I’ve never really spoken to Tade, maybe two words. Um, but yeah, when he walks into a room, everyone’s kind of like, “Oh man, that’s Tade.” But he does still kind of have this aura of like he is kind of that normal guy. Uh which I don’t know right now I’m getting way off topic but I agree he is the best I have ever seen. He’s the best I ever had the priv privilege of lining up at a race with. Um and I’ve been wa I’ve been watching and witnessing cycling since the Miguel Linder days and yeah he is better than everyone I’ve ever seen. But for me to just say like, you know what, you are the best who have ever done this, the greatest of all time, I just want to see a couple of those records fall. And I believe they will. I want to see him get the stage win record from from Mark Cavendish. I want to see him win six tour to Francis to one up Eddie Merks’s five. I want to maybe see him win a couple more GRO. And how about what’s that? End of the VA. We got to stack that. That Walta race book has got to be stacked as well. Usually that’s the first one to go. Of course. Of course. So yeah, just when I look thinking back of all of those race bibles that we would have collected and seen all of the names of Eddie Mks and how many times he had won Tide Pagotch, he’s on his way, but he’s not there. So I’m like, I’m still saying Eddie Merks is the goat, but you know, you better start doing your speeches now, and you may better start like telling your dinnertime stories because, you know, you’re going to get knocked off that pedestal real quick. It’s a it’s interesting when you pull in the other sport analogies, you know, cycling, it reminds me that cycling is quite intertwined into the technology, the material, the the evolution. Like if you if you play a Jordan highlight clip versus the best stars in the best in the game today, I I’m a very untrained eye to the NBA, but it’s going to look like it’s going to look you pretty similar like Jordan of old playing at his best. She’s gonna put it right next to the the the the champions of today is going to look pretty similar, but because of of technology, the technical advancements of cycling, the pelaton sizes, the road sizes, even the way that the sports covered the it’s it is a difficult apples to apples to go from Merk’s era to the year 2025. Yeah. No, I see what you’re saying. I mean, okay, we we don’t have to get too much into other sports, but the the sport of basketball has evolved a lot. It used to be a game played a lot more on the interior. Um, and like the three-point shot, people would only take a couple of them a like a game or a night. And most of uh most of the game was played on the inside. And now people are starting to move all the way to half court. Like Steph Curry, he’s kind of revolutionized the three ball. And now it’s like mid-range shooting is not even a thing anymore. So, you know, they would have had to adjust to certain eras like and so it it every sport evolves, but uh anyways, we’re getting we’re getting way off track here, but uh Todd will keep evolving too. Todd will keep evolving. Like that’s the thing. He doesn’t have a weakness. Like he’s the way he’s evolved it is like we talked earlier about how he eliminated the mid-ra move. He’s like, I don’t want to have that tactical liability in the way, so I’m going to go early enough to where we don’t have we’re never really worried about the the early break because, you know, they’re going to tire themselves out and the big riders aren’t going to want to move. So, how are people going to counter that for TADe? Are stronger riders going to start going in the early breakaway and the race is just going to start from kilometer zero? I don’t know. I’m I’m curious to see. Uh it’s going to be something I’m going to have to adjust to as a director. But um I will say last topic of the day. Oh yeah, go ahead. Yeah, but before you go there, just staying on TAD for a second. The we we’ve we talked a little bit during the tour to France about the only sort of weakness TD has is his own well or not weakness but de like decider in how much of an impact he has on these history books is his own motivation. Can he maintain that inspiration? Can he stay motivated? I was surprised. is I dare say blown away listening to his interviews after Worlds already speaking of the European Championships next week. I’m like, “What? You just won Worlds? You’re doing the finish line interview and now you’re talking about going to race the European Championships. What is that jersey? What does that even do for you, man? You’re gonna you go win the Euros? Like, you’re not going to wear it over your Rainbow Stripes. The Rainbow Stripes are staying on top.” So like that the fact that he’s still that queued on and still teed up to like, oh, it’s another race. I’m going to go there and smash everyone again. That once again pulls me out of that sort of maybe you could argue slump he was in after the tour where he was definitely wearing the uh the signs of a big year of pushing, of winning, of carrying the burden of being the great. we saw him with the slow sort of rebound of that, not winning in Canada as we expected him, not winning the TT. Um, so yeah, that that those few months after the tour sort of had me thinking back to this conversation of like where where is the motivation toggle switch in that fire? How bright is it burning? But when I see him win the Worlds and go straight to Europeans next week where he wants to go again, I’m like, oh man, it’s going to be a long few years for any of these guys who are trying to compete against him. Yeah. I mean, that goes to what we were talking about at the beginning of this podcast, like I don’t know how these guys, they just have this like Energizer Bunny like jetpack in them to where they just go from January to late October and they never seem to lose steam. And maybe that’s the difference of the diet. Maybe we would like we would always talk about being on the regime, you know, kind of like when we used to starve ourselves. I don’t think the term regime is like uh that’s not anything that anyone says anymore. So, I think that people have really figured out a way to just take care of themselves better. They’re monitoring their sleep. They’re monitoring their diets. And so, they they’re able to maintain this level for longer. And uh you know, it’s it’s great. I think um no, I I mean, you got to you got to just admire the will and just the fortitude that Tade has to go to the European champ. And what a what a calendar kind of blunder. like why put the world European championships after the worlds, you know, they should be before. But that’s that’s a whole other conversation. Yeah, we’re not going to go down the continental championship rabbit hole. I think as as North Americans, we’re always like a little like why why are these European championships such a big deal? I mean, the Panama Championships for North Americans uh are Did you ever race them? I never raced them. I I never raced them. And most of the most of our peers, our our our pro peers also didn’t race them. Not to take away from it that it is a race that still counts. It has meaning. It’s important. But the point is the Europeans I feel like disproportionately maybe weight um the importance of theirs. But that’s as a non-European. So there you go. I don’t know. There might be like some Olympic uh qualification points or slots available for it. Who knows? I have no idea. Uh points points are always a big thing. Um, but anyways, that’s a another rabbit hole that we can leave for another another uh podcast. But last topic I want to get into, Leal Trek. They have won the Juanuso sweep stakes. And I was actually really curious is where this guy was going to land. And um, you know, he’s had he’s kind of had a mixed bag of a of a season and it’s been he’s had a disappointing JRO, left early, fell out of contention at the Velta, but won some stages. He did win a very impressive Toronto Adriatico earlier this year. He’s I mean he’s definitely a champion. Finished on the podium of the of the Velta in previous years. Like how do you how do you see this fit in Little Trek and what do you see the ceiling of one Iuso being? Yeah TJ good question. I think Le just going zooming out to the team they are one of they premier teams. You look at even the worlds that we were just talking about, four, five, six, Lethal Trek are, you know, stacking the top 10 just like UAE is. The amount of wins they’ve had this year, not just the amount of wins, but with the diversity of riders they’ve done it. Legal Trek, you got to commend the the management there, the infrastructure they’ve put in place, what they’ve just built. This hasn’t happened overnight. This management group, this team has been around a long time. I would say that this past season or and even these past couple years, they’re really coming into it and really figuring out this uh this great successful combination. I’m hopeful that this team has done their due diligence with Juan Auso, not for the rider that he is and his skill sets on the bike and the power he does, but really for the person that’s going to fit into this organization and this culture. Because to me that is the that is the key of the wanao potential ceiling and question that you just posed to me. It’s not about does he have the physical ability? Does he have the watts, the body type, the tt skill set? Yeah, we we saw him at the worlds. We heard him even himself yesterday. He’s like I don’t know if tour to Flanders is my race. You know, I didn’t feel good in those cobbles. Put put that aside. Yeah, I t to Flanders. T Flanders Perry Rubay. That’s not you, man. But in terms of you doing you, the grand tours, the weekl long stage races, he is absolutely world class, one of the best in the world. And it’s all going to come down to if Trek can manage not just him as an athlete and the power and how to use his physical capacities, but him as a person and does he fit in to this program? Does the does the staff vibe with him? Does he have a roommate, multiple different roommates that he likes? Does he feel supported as a person? Um there yeah Tre doesn’t have you could argue they don’t have someone that is a direct correlary. So I think that’s going to serve him well. He’s not going to be fighting for grant tour leadership I don’t think with anyone there. I think that’s going to serve him well. But without knowing the behind the scenes due diligence um that happened there. I hope I hope hope it was a a wellthoughtout uh well-designed process of getting to know him as a person as much as the performer that they need in terms of a grand tour leader. What do you think? What do you What do you think? I I agree with everything you just said. I uh when I look at Trek, you know, you you look at the wins and what they’ve been able to do with Jonathan Milan, what they’ve been able to do with Mods Peterson, Skelemos, Julio Chicone. um the the wins that they have just across the board with multitude of riders, the only thing that was missing to really make them like a powerhouse super team was a Grand Tour contender. You know, they didn’t have a Primos Roglitch or a Yonas Vinkigo or a Tati Pagotch. Like Juan Auso is like the closest to those guys that you’re probably going to find. Uh and also still young and still developable. Um, so I’m really curious to see how this fits going to be and I’m also curious to see, you know, how are they going to keep their other champions happy? Mods Peterson just had an incredible season and he’s probably going to want to go to the tour to France or, you know, like like I kept saying this July, they got to feed the big man. So, if that’s going to take away from some of the support that Juan Auso is going to get there, I don’t know. How are they going to manage programs? But like you just said, I I have all the faith in Steven D. Young. I think that um uh he’s the head sports director on Leal Trek and I think they have a good system set up there. I’m a little bit bummed that he didn’t want to come to EF. I thought, you know, it would have been really exciting to be able to work with him. Uh still a big fan. Doors always open. No, just kidding. I don’t have anything to do with contract stuff, but I wish him the best. I think he’s gonna be really really well served there on Leal Trek. And I hope uh I hope to see him at the pointy end of the Pelaton. just you know not don’t do too good because still still an EF guy. So TJ, when you have Wanao in Leel Trek, he settles into the organization. He is their leader for the Grand Tours. My question is, are they putting them first try in the tour to France? And if they do, where does he stack up? Because yeah, there this is a it’s this is a crowded tour to France GC scene. I mean, we’re talking about Tade nearly unbeatable. We’re talking about Yonas, talking about Remco. Uh so so many real um generational GC hitters. So are we putting him on the podium at the Tour to France? I don’t know. That’s a good question. I mean, he has raced to the Tour to France, but he didn’t make it very far when uh when he had to drop out with COVID last year. So I I don’t know if he’s ready for leadership at the Tour to France. I would I would maybe try again for the JRO. Uh, I’d probably try to put my ear to the ground as to what some of his other competitors are doing. Um, maybe do like what Remco did and do the Velta uh when he he won back in 2023 or I think that’s what it was but that’s a really good question. Um, but you know what? Like why not? If you want to just say like, “Hey, this is your team now. Let’s see what you can do.” if they’re happy with a with a top five, you know, I’ I’d still think that that’s something he can be really proud of. And, you know, the season doesn’t start and stop with the tour to France. There’s other race races along the way that he can win. Um, but yeah, I he did the G- Roa this year, it didn’t go well. But if he did that next year, that same thing, and they went to the tour with a Jonathan Milan mods Peterson double hitter, like that would be that’d be a massively successful season if they could pull that off with Leel Trek. Yeah, the I think the prudent move would be to step in with the Gio or the Valta with Iuso as leader. But I think once again, the question really isn’t for the management of that team. It’s really for Wanayuso. It’s that real what motivates him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s that conversation sitting down calmly and saying, “What do you want? What motivates you?” And making sure he understands what that comes with. If you say you want to lead a team like Lethal Trek at the tour to France, make sure you understand that it comes with all the pressure, all the expectation, all that weight. Yeah. Because that is a lot. I mean, high risk, high reward. You can sell a lot of Trek bikes at the Tour to France if you’re wanto, but you can also lose your head, crumble. Yeah. Leave the race, come apart, infighting with teammates. We’ve already seen a lot of that from him already. We’ve seen a lot of that from Ausso in his young career for sure. He is not a stranger of uh, you know, seeming to get a little bit crowded or if he gets a little threatened by a teammate or, you know, he might dip out early if the race isn’t going well for him. So, I hope that he matures in that regard. And uh I do think that he has more infrastructure around him in Little Trek to like like we’ve been saying because everybody gets to eat there, man. Like those guys win with just about everyone. Tom Scoins like what we talked about just now at the Worlds. Um so I think he’s in a good program and I think we’re going to see the best out of him there. Where that is I don’t know, but if it’s the tour to France, I wish him the best of luck. Yeah, it it’ll be no doubt exciting. I mean, yeah, whether he’s at the tour or not, this uh we we’ll get to that. The the list of GC contenders at the tour will be as stacked as ever next year. But man, we still got more racing this year, TJ. I mean, I’m uh I’m impressed. You’re heading to Italy with the with the squad. You still got some gas in the tank. Hopefully, your boys do. We’ll be uh we’ll be interested to see how that goes. I’m looking for the inside after a big Italian trip. So, good luck there. Before we shift gears to next year, we got to finish this year out. Yeah, let’s finish it up strong. I’m not going to do what I did in the Vulcanberg World Championships back in 2012. I’m going to try to stay focused and for this last push. But Brent, it’s been great talking to you. Great catching up. You look great, man. Um, keep staying fit. And let’s uh let’s talk after I get done with this Italian block. We’ll talk some more bike racing then. Likewise, DJ. Thanks, man. Best of luck there. We’ll talk to you soon. Thanks for joining us on Beyond the Podium. For all your cycling content year round, subscribe to NBC Sports YouTube page. We got it all.