Economy 2.0: A Conversation with Christian Gelleri

Josh Sidman sits down for a conversation with Christian Gelleri.

Christian Gelleri is a PhD candidate in economics at the University of Siegen in Germany and a leading innovator in the complementary currency space. He is the creator of the Chiemgauer, a regional currency in Bavaria, Germany which is intended to increase local employment, support local culture and make the local food supply more resilient. The currency incorporates Silvio Gesell’s proposal of demurrage, or carrying costs, to incentivize steady circulation of money. Christian is a former Waldorf School teacher, and he created the Chiemgauer in 2003 as a project with his students. Now, over 20 years later, it is one of the most successful and sustained complementary currency projects in the world, with an annual turnover of over 7 million Euros.

Hello and welcome to Economy 2.0 brought to you by the Sylvia Yogel Foundation and the Henry George School. My name is Josh Sidman. After taking most of July off, we’re back with a great lineup of upcoming episodes. On Tuesday, August 19th at 1:00, we’ll be joined by Carlos Luj. Carlos is a lawyer and economist by training and is the founder and director of the Sylvio Gell Institute in Argentina. Carlos has a deep and broad knowledge of the history of economic thought and has written extensively about what he calls the center versus periphery lens, whereby the field of mainstream economics gives undue weight to the work of economists in the center, which is to say the United States and Western Europe, while largely ignoring the work of thinkers in the periphery, which is basically anywhere other than the US and Western Europe. He makes a compelling case that many of the core economic ideas which are credited to thinkers from the center were preceded by thinkers in the periphery by decades and in some cases even centuries and that in order to develop a fuller understanding the field of economics needs to examine and integrate the work of thinkers from the periphery including a number of South American thinkers who are essentially unknown in mainstream reme economics. Along similar lines, Carlos wrote a book entitled Canes and Gaseel, a new paradigm in which he argues that Canes is credited with a number of key concepts that were previously developed by Gassel during his time in Argentina and that the field of mainstream economics has not recognized this yet. Interestingly, in September, we’ll be joined by an economist, Guido Preparata, who goes even further, having written a paper accusing Canes of plagiarism of Gassel’s ideas. And then on Tuesday, September 2nd, we’ll talk with Felix Futooers. Felix is a German professor of economics who lives and works in Chile. He’s the director of the economics institute at the Universad Astral de Chile and he’s also the chairman of the natural economic order foundation the main organization in Germany for promoting Gassel’s ideas. Felix has written extensively about Sylvio Gassel and focuses on issues of sustainability. His most recent book, How to Fulfill the UN Sustainability Goals: Rethinking the Role and Concept of Money in Light of Sustainability, makes the case that our flawed system of money is one of the primary drivers of unsustainable economic practices and that it’s essentially impossible to build a sustainable future without completely overhauling our system of money along the lines proposed by Sylvio Gassel. All right, before we bring in today’s guest, I’d like to ask for your help in growing awareness of this series. There are a number of ways you can do this. First, please like the YouTube videos and subscribe to the YouTube channels of the Sylvia Yoga Foundation and the Henry George School. Also, also share the videos on social media or with people who you think might be interested. And if you’re able, you can make a donation through the Sylvio Gustell Foundation website. As always, I want to remain I want to remind everyone that Economy 2.0 is meant to be a conversation and anyone in the live Zoom audience is welcome to join in at any time. To do so, please use the raise hand button under the react tab on your Zoom toolbar. Also, as a reminder, these episodes are recorded and will be posted on our YouTube channels. All right, let me bring in today’s guest. Christian Galleri joins us from Germany where he has nearly completed his PhD in economics at the University of Sean. He’s also the creator of the Keem, a regional currency in Bavaria. He created the KeemGower in 2003 as a project with his students while working as a teacher in a Waldorf school. Today, 22 years later, the currency continues to function with an annual turnover of over 7 million euros, making it one of the most successful complimentary currencies in the world and by far the most successful and sustained implementation of Sylvio Gasel’s proposal of demmerge. So, Christian, welcome to economy 2.0. Thanks so much for joining us. Why don’t you get us started by telling us about your journey? How did you first become acquainted with Sylvio Gasell and share with us a bit about the history of the KeemGower. Uh thank you Yosh. Um yeah uh I have a long history with Sylvio Gazelle and um it started quite early. Um, I I think I was 15 or 16 years old and uh I began to uh to read um books or hear cassettes, read books in the library and I I read a book about um economy. Um it it was about um businesses which um which develop uh in a in a in a cycle. um they grow, they um they get big um and then then they saturate and then um there’s a turning point and they go down and um there were many businesses in the history and um and I wondered why the economy also um had these waves and um and uh I wondered Why after such waves or after a crash um we have such a misery and um and with these questions um my mother came to me and said oh I have here a little book uh maybe you are interested it’s called to the survivors to the survivors and it was um was a collection of sitations of Sylvio Gazelle and I read it and I thought oh it’s interesting but I didn’t understood what is the concept behind it and then I went to the library and and ask for a book of Sylvio Gazelle and um and they said they don’t have one and they have to look they have to look where uh is one and and we found one in the state library in Munich and and then uh I I lend the book and and they said to me, “Oh, I can’t take it at home. I I must read it in the library.” And then I read it in the library. Uh and I found out it was the first issue of Sylvio Gel’s book um the natural u economic order. Um and and it was very val valuable the book and and I read it and I was um enthusiastic and and um and u I wanted to know more about it and and then I looked for people who are involved in in this kind of theory and after some time I found some and and had discussed with them and they were bit older um and and then I uh I was acquainted with the idea of Sylvio Gizelle and I thought it’s logic and um I think when a whole system works with with such a ne negative interest money system um the waves of ups and downs would be not so not so um so big and not so uh yeah with such such such depressions and such high unemployment that are followed by such a crash or financial crisis. And that was a fascinating idea and um but I was also a bit disappointed about the political consequences because I thought I saw nobody was interested in this idea in Germany or elsewhere. Nobody. and uh no politicians, no party and um and then I um yeah I was a bit frustrated um and and then uh when I studied economics uh at uh the University of Munich um I also asked professors and they laughed about the idea and that oh the old um dearrage money it’s long gone and nobody’s interested in it anymore. we are now modernized and we don’t need it anymore. That was uh that was the answer of of a professor of mine and um I read a small article about the idea to initiate initiate a small initiative in a town like Munich and to ask the people in Munich um to to make it and and and I was fascinated with by this idea to make it practical and uh Um we we founded a small group and we discussed a lot and there um the idea of regional money was developed and um we tried it in Munich but we failed completely and then um I made my training ship as a teacher and was at the Waldo school in Pin at Lake Kim and there I proposed the idea to students And and uh among other other ideas um there were very interesting ideas, six ideas and and the students said the most interesting idea they have heard was about this regional money and they want to try out to experiment with this. Um and we started the initiative in autumn 2002. So 23 years ago and and then we uh yeah we tried to design um the vouchers was it money the cash money. We we asked people so we made a survey with parents, teachers and businesses because we want to wanted to find out um how do we um or how must the rules are adjusted that everybody is motivated to take part and and we asked businesses what is the maximum fee they would carry. We asked um parents and teachers what would be a motivation for them. I also asked students and they said um what what would be motivating for us would be a sports hall at the school because we have no sports uh sport teaching or only less teaching only 40 minutes from uh 90 90 minutes uh 2 hours my 90 minutes they only had 40 minutes um sports teach teaching and they said that’s because we don’t have a sports hall and we have to drive more than 40 minutes to the sports hall and back and and we when we would have a sports hall here um we um we we could have sports sports for the whole time and um yeah the students were very motivated also the parents and teachers and and then we said okay all profits or fees we we have or surplus pluses we have uh we would give into the sports hall project. Um and and when we um make a currency circle with the king um then we define that every exchange from euro into cleaning is um um stickked with 3% for the sports hall and and when you exchange euros back into Kimawa 5% should go to the students company from which 3% goes to the sports hall and 2% for the for the costs of the operating of the king. That was the basic idea and then we said okay we don’t want the money um to to be hoarded or to be uh lost in the currency cycle. we want that it is circulating and it comes back to us and and then came the second idea. The first idea was to to have the exchange fee back into euro and the second idea um was the the demorrage fee or the negative interest on on king um that everybody who holds king should spend it within a a short period of time. and and then um we began with 30 parents and 20 businesses. And it it began slowly but after some after few months um we had more parents and more and more businesses took part and then the first uh business cycles um developed and uh businesses wanted to spend the team within the network. they didn’t want to change back because it has high costs 5% and then the circulation began and uh I think that’s a that’s a very important feature of the kingo that kingo circulates about five times or seven times when it is exchanged from euro into kingo is it is um circulated three four five times and uh after that it is exchanged back into euro and and that comes from the special rules. The first one is that you have a fee when you get out of the network and the second one is you have to pay something when you when you hoard money. And after 20 years now, we see that that it works. It’s quite simple. it has two fees and and um the king never stops. So when a when a euro is exchanged in the queen, it circulates and it and it works because the fees work and and then comes um what where we started from. We started with people who thought about the rules. they decided about the rules and they can change the rules. So it’s it’s nothing uh fundamental that we have these two kind of rules in the money system. But uh when we talk about it and discuss it and we think about it, it’s the most logical form of of rules and and everybody has a win in in the network. Of course, when you look at it in on the individual side, somebody has to exchange money back into euro or somebody has to pay a fee uh when it comes to the end of a of a half a year. Um then then he has she has to pay something. But when you look at the whole system um we see that that the circulation is stable and and the um incentive to stay within the network is also very high and and this are these are the two elements of our currency and we we we have different types of complimentary currencies in the world. So so the king is a convertible currency. So we also have other currency types like credit currencies or mutual credit currencies or fiat currencies um cryptocurrencies. Um so it’s it’s not a must that the kegawa uh have to be has to be designed in this way. uh but we uh we decided this way and um we saw that it is integrated in the economy and um yeah I think that’s that was the beginning of the king and um yeah maybe the next question or uh the yeah next comment yeah so it’s interesting I’m learning for the first time that that your primary focus was on a community currency rather than a demmerge currency. And I’m interested to to know what was your experience like when you proposed demurrage as a feature of this currency. My my experience when talking about the concept of demmerge to people is that you run into a lot of resistance. Um, and given given that your primary motivation was a community currency rather than necessarily a demerge currency, it’s an interesting choice that you that you that you decided to incorporate a feature that I imagine might have resulted in in more resistance than if you had not incorporated that feature. So can you talk about how people responded to your decision to include demarrage as an aspect of the currency? Yeah, it’s um yeah, it was important that we introduced the Kimawa concept with this demarrage. So we uh we doesn’t change a rule u after a while. We started with it from the beginning and then people had had the time to get used to this rule and and of course in the beginning there was some resistance or some dumb uh thoughts about it or some surprises. I I remember a teacher uh she came to me and said, “Oh, I I have these king and they are nothing. Uh they have no value anymore because they had no stamps.” And I explained, “Oh, you have to pay now 25 cents and then you get the value of 30 again.” And then she was surprised uh to that is that this ill is valid and uh that is so cheap 25 cent. Oh, that’s not much. So she was afraid that she lose a lot of money and and then she she saw that it’s only a small amount of money and and then she um got this the stickers and she stickked it on on the king. She she had another quarter in the beginning. We have quarters uh quarter of a of a year. Uh and then she had another three months to spend it and then she never came again because every time she exchanged ke she spend it at once. So she changed her behavior. And I also talked to a cinema owner and he said, “Oh, at the end of the month or end of the quarter, people run to me and want to spend their kimgar in in my cinema.” And um of course in the in the beginning he denied to accept it because he said, “Oh, it’s uh only valid for one day or two days. I don’t accept it anymore.” Then I some of one teacher explained in think about it you get an entry fee of fee of €10 for your seat and when I don’t come you you don’t get anything you you get zero. So when the the baddest thing what can happen to you is that I pay to you 10 king then you have to stick um the sticker for three uh 3% so it’s uh 30 cent so you only only get €9.70 or you see it but the alternative is that you would earn nothing and then he thought about it and said okay that’s logic and um I take it and then two years after we said oh we can change it from 3 months to half a year and then he was against it because he said I have an advantage of it people come to me why should we change it so that’s that’s um the changing when you practice it, it becomes um yeah a no problem uh a no a no burner and and but in the beginning yeah you think such a lot of things and and and think it’s so complicated but when you are used to it it’s it’s simple and and then we developed further after two years we began to um to develop pops the the um digital kingo. And with the digital kingo, it’s much easier. You have you don’t have to put a stamp on a on a paper currency. You have a smartphone app or you have a a card and then the ne negative interest is applied automatically. And um and it’s very smooth because uh we have we have a system with our accounts that you have um spare time of 30 days. So you have no or 3 months uh 90 days um you don’t have to pay anything the first three months you get your um uh your money. the king the digital the digital king and after 91 days they the dearrage begins with um with an interest rate of 6% a year but for a day it’s only uh one um yeah 305 uh 75 uh days divided so it’s 0.01% 01% per day and for uh $1,000 it would be I don’t know two or three cent and and um then it’s a lot of easier that’s that’s a lot easier for businesses also because they they have their income the turnover in King um they spend it not at once they they um collect it for the next invoice and after a month or six weeks weeks or seven weeks they pay a invoice from from the supplier and then it’s away and and they are within the the time limit of 3 months though they never pay anything for the Kimawa um when you look at the negative interest rate. So the smartest businesses they never pay a fee because they um they spend the king within the 3 months and they spend the king again and they not they do don’t exchange into euro and and they are smart and they have less very low fee and um about 80 to 90% are this smart and then we have a few bigger companies and they say okay uh we have we have much kingo we have to exchange uh a certain amount back into euro but it’s okay for us it’s a marketing fee for and it’s for the region it’s for the common good for the region they pay for example 1,000 um euros a year or 10,000 5,000 but uh it’s all always related to their size because When a when a company has a turnover of 10 million euros, it’s no problem when they spend 10,000€ 10,000 euros or king for sponsoring into into the region. It’s normal. So for bigger companies, it’s not not a problem. And for the small companies, it’s a big chance because they have lower fees within these kind of um of system. um this this idea of a 90-day um uh waiting period until demmerge kicks in. Where did that come from? Was that your idea? I I’d never heard that uh that originally. Yeah, I I never heard of it, too. Originally, it was an idea of a businessman. He said, “Uh, hey guy, I don’t like the idea of ne negative interest because I have to pay from the first day and I have no chance. You give me no chance. But when I would have 30 days free and then you apply it, that would be an idea.” And then I said, “Hey, you’re right.” So we talked to our community, they give us feedback and then we and then I asked the programmer, hey, can you do it? Can you program not only negative interest uh but also that the first 30 days are free? And then he said, uh yeah, how is the formula? And then we we thought about it and and then we find we found the formula for it and then he thought no problem when I have a formula I can program it. Yeah. And then that was the story of it. I don’t know if um no I I think I think it’s um yeah we have voucher systems which uh are invalid invalid within 3 years or one year or you have vouchers with a date with an end date and then you lose 100% of value. Um I think this is um is a compromise um to have it um within a certain time uh and and then then the hard rule applied is applied and and that’s like a compromise and I don’t know if it would work in the society but it works in a community. So with a few thousand people where we know each other, it works perfect. As an economist now with a you know a deep understanding of the thinking of Sylvio Gell, you of course know that the rationale for demarrage is not only about circulation. It’s about elimination of of the business cycle. Um, it’s about changing how wealth flows and um and is distributed throughout the economic organism. What to what extent was communicating the the entire Gelian perspective part of the Keem Gower or was or did you just or did you mostly um just focus on the local circulation benefits of demmerge? Um yeah, so we we use it more practical. Yes. Um, but of course I I have the background and and it was all always a goal to to implement a interest free credit system because the idea was okay we have fees or the positive amount on your account or your positive amount of of cash money. But on the other side we would have interest free loans. So it takes out the pressure or on the businesses and it takes out the pressure to have growth and and we also experimented with these kind of um loans because we had businesses who have who had too much Kimo and they didn’t want to change it back into euro and we offered them okay give it to our cooperative and then we lend it or be invested in the region and we have to have certain amount um these uh yeah these saving and investing model in the region. So, so it’s not only it’s not only about circulating, it’s also about um yeah changing the conditions for for the businesses, conditions for nonprofit organizations and um to lower the yeah this community costs for money because yeah, when not an individual gets a high profit out of a saving um then then the costs for the community or for for individuals who invest are lower and um yeah we can do investments which are not rational in the normal capitalistic system. So one example was um um a water energy uh how is it called um uh an water electricity system. Yeah. and a small one. And we had us um at near to the Walter School is a is a small river and um and there was a place and and we saw that when we when we install such a water equipment then um then we get electricity out of it. But when you when you calculate it on the normal business administration level and said say okay the rentability of it what is what is it was amotization rate so it’s um uh and we found out it was zero and nobody would invest in an in an investment which is zero for the next 30 years but withgo we had many people who But it doesn’t matter. I’m I’m happy with zero because when I have the money, I have to pay 6% a year. And when I invest into the um in the water electricity system, um I I get a profit because I get zero and many invested. And um today we have this um system and it generates electricity uh the whole year. Um yeah and and um it’s an example for investments which um yeah which are usual in the sustainability side that that uh many investments are not done because um they don’t have the profit and and within the scheme network work it works because the the expert expectation of a profit is much lower. So it’s very interesting to me that you incorporated a credit market in this in this complimentary currency. Um um and I and it’s intuitive as to why anyone would want to lend the KeemGower because it is a way of avoiding demmerge. Can you talk about the other side of the borrowing and lending who give give some examples of of those who are motivated to want to borrow in the Keem Gower? Yeah. The example of this water um system was um we have handcrafts in the region and and and they can take a part a part of their money uh in the Kimawa and and therefore um it’s more expensive a little more expensive um and it it is hand it was a handmade um um thing but um yeah it’s Um yeah disconnected to each other. Yeah, the re the regional products or goods they have a higher quality but they are more expensive and they need more uh work and less um so they machines are uh the what the capital part is is lower and the the working part is is higher in the for the regional products and uh investments investments are uh easier because when when you know Okay, I get an I get an a an an an an a loan uh with 0% or 1%. It’s much uh it’s much easier that you um can manage this kind of investment. Um then then you go to a bank and the bank says um oh are you bankable at all and when okay you’re not as bankable as a big company. So, I I take uh I take 10% from you, 12%. And you don’t get a a normal fixed loan. You you only get a disposable loan. Uh uh and and then you have to pay 12%. That’s normal. That’s normal for our businesses um with one to five employees. they um only when they have a house or when then they have securities they get lower interests or 5% 6% but uh when you don’t have ex uh securities then uh you have very high interest rates and and some some of the businesses uh don’t get uh loan at all and then um we were also part of uh of of the micro finance network from 2009. So 7 years after the king we we um um participated on a micro finance program in Germany and and then we were able with it to to give credits in Kimawa and in Euro and the euros uh credits are with interest and the and the uh credits with Kimawa are much less and and that was that was a a thing of prof professional professionalizing it. The disadvantage is we have a bank in between and the bank um they have costs and we have to pay the bank and and then um we have some interest for the kela and some and high interest for the euro accounts and um so we have investments we have these microloans and so we have um yeah a variety of of of of instruments and tools to to help our our small businesses. I’d like I’d like to delve more into the credit market. I find that fascinating. Um, so there is one central bank that administers all of the credit and it and or are there are there multiple lending agencies? Um, both. Um, we have direct lending. So I have a friend and I gave him this Sunday 3,000 Kima for interest of zero. Nobody is involved, no cooperative, no organization. Direct. I make a contract. I give him the 3,000. It’s trust. And he pays me back uh 100 or he said he pays me back 500 every five months. And uh and now he can invest his small thing. That’s that’s the most easiest thing. And and then we have a more formal uh formalized um approach with the micro finance that somebody says, “Okay, I I need to invest a harvest on um my olive oil for the next year and uh I have to pay my Greek farmers and I need euros for it.” And then he get a loan, he pays it. And then we have a specialty here. Uh I I offered okay you can pay back this this euro credit in kingawa. So you pay the interest but when you pay back you can pay it in kinga. And then he was happy. Then he was happy because when he goes to the bank he pays interest and he has no no additional benefits. But with us we say okay um you pay the interest the same interest with uh as your bank but the part what we get from the bank we get a profit uh we get a provision and and we take this provision and and then we say okay you don’t have to pay the exchange fee you can pay back can can pay it in king to to the account to the um credit account. That’s another idea what we had and it works very good. And the third one is the uh king model. So we give a king credit and we get king back and then you get a bonus. So you pay interest but in the end you get a bonus and then you only have to pay half of the bank uh interest rates in the end. But it’s it’s still expensive for small businesses. So we are still not happy with it. Um yeah, we would like to have more direct lending, peer-to-peer lending and uh maybe we we integrate some uh peer-to-peer tool into our king system. Um so we we develop it. So it’s it’s it’s an um a living it’s a living real laboratory and um and when there are ideas we try to uh yeah we try to integrate it we try to develop it and and um yeah as as I told you with the businessman who who had the idea with u with 30 days or 90 days um yeah it it it is developed out of the out of the debate culture in the community and uh also with marketing ideas or when we make together some advertisements with newspapers or make a film together or whatever. Um many of the things are developed out of the community. So it’s the communities first and then comes the rules on and the the techniques. All right, to change gears just a little bit, this this series economy 2.0 O is is based on the point of view that the that the conventional economic system is likely or possibly headed toward decline andor collapse. Um and and so the the goal is to bring in perspectives on alternatives to the conventional economy. um at you know things that could potentially replace the conventional system. Do you think of the of the Keem Gower as a as purely complimentary to the conventional system or do you look beyond it as something that could potentially um over time eclipse and or replace the conventional system? uh yeah in different forms. So we don’t know uh how it could happen that transformation but I believe we need a transformation because uh I don’t believe we have the best system yet. uh the system. What we have now is um yeah we have all these bubbles. We have this exponential growth of money or depths uh assets also and then we have these breakdowns and and crisis and long miseries and long times of unemployment and um I don’t believe that is at that it ends automatically. Um, of course, after a crash and after misery, it starts again and then we start again and we make the same mistakes again. So, we repeat the same system now for a few hundred years and it it never changes because we don’t know nothing else. So, we repeat every time the same. and and what we tried to show in this experiment uh that that there is a possibility to have another way. It’s like it it’s like it began with with wind farms or with solar energy in the beginning. all said, “Yeah, it’s crazy or it doesn’t work or it’s too small.” And and and then a few people um make experiments with it. and and today it’s a real alternative or in in um in the when you see in the growth of um energy the the majority of of the plus is uh renewable energies and and nobody believed it in 40 or 50 years ago ago. So my grandfather was one who believed in these kind of system. He invested in it and and he crashed with these investments because in the beginning it it had it uh was too expensive. So uh you had a one one euro for 1 kilowatt hour in the beginning for wind for wind energy and it was too expensive. So he lost his investment. Yeah. But he tried and I think we’re in the same stage now for for the complimentary currencies like Sikim Goa. Um when you look at now it’s it’s um too expensive because it’s too small. We have no backing. It it is not not uh on a scale where where it’s professional enough. So we we um yeah we have developed a lot. So we use techniques from the whole world um but it’s not on the level um where we can transform right now but but we had some some examples in history like in Argentina where where we saw when the po breaks down um complimentary currencies can um can be uh bigger in a short period of time and and they can they can help people in times of crisis and and that’s possible also for the king. We had the verbal example um um 1932 um where we saw on local community issues such a local currency with a demorage and it helps the people in a very very short period of time and and um I think um from my side I would believe we would have a more decentralized ized money system. So, not a centralized money system where we have a central planner for for money. Um, I would prefer a more decentralized um money system where we have many small central banks. Yeah. in a region or um yeah in a district and um and something like a central bank is only coordinating and doing some complimentary to the to the regions but we would turn it on uh on the other way. uh we had uh we had a system in Europe with the European currency unit the EQ it existed from I don’t know 1980 1970s 1990s and it was all only a balance currency for the localized systems the national currencies and you could imagine a a regional money system and then then something like a common currency eur unit to have the exchange and with the uh technics today it would be easy with a smartphone uh I of course I couldn’t pay in in Spain or in the US or in Canada but it would have um have consequences if I am not paying within my region. So I would have to pay a small fee for example and and uh it could be very smooth and intelligent. It could be a a world a world system connected but based on many decentralized regional central banks and the power would be in the regions and the people have access to this power. That’s a total different thinking. Um when you look at the Fed or the European Central Bank um where a person like you and me has no single millimeter of uh power or or um access to to the power. Um maybe we we can’t even talk to these people. Yeah. When we are uh when you are hedge fund manager. Okay. Maybe you are invited to a conference and can talk to to some central bankers, but normal people have no access uh to to central bankers. And and I know another example from a small country like Denmark. Um it is said that the central banker of Denmark is looking for discussion and debates with people and it’s a small country with a few million people. It’s possible. So when you when you look in the future of money, I would have a vision like a lots of Denmarks in the world and not lots of US and China’s. So speaking about central banks and governments more generally, as you certainly know, most most of the demurrage currency systems throughout history have um have drawn strong opposition from central authorities. The the Veral experiment was uh was outlawed by the Austrian central bank. I think the VAR network the same thing happened. Uh I think that the Argentinian project also you know the Argentinian project for a number of years drew enormous participation but now 20 or so years later is a fraction of the size of what it once was. And I think a lot of that had to do with um the opposition of um of official. What have you had any um what has been the response of of governments of of central banks um to the keggo? Yeah, we had we had some success with the king. We we have grown over the years 2004, five, six, seven. So every year we we had a growth and uh after some time um local authorities were asked to participate because we had we had 50 70 80 businesses in a in a small town and and then they asked the local authority to take part because they said okay we pay you taxes and you can spend your money in in the town so why why don’t you take um taxes with team with Kingdawa and and uh we talked to a lot of mayors and and one of them said okay let’s try I take it and then he took it and after one year it worked it was a hard time with the administrator of the community the local authority Um he he couldn’t imagine how he can integrate it into his his um bureaucratic um bureaucratic um software and his uh his system but he integrated this it and said okay I found a way uh it’s it’s a payment method like others it’s a ninth uh payment method okay I integrate it and when when somebody want to pay with King he shouldn’t say he wants to pay in kingdo he should say uh he want to pay with payment method number nine okay and it worked it worked very good and the the local authorities has spent all the king within the region they uh bought technical equipment and they bought some um some gifts for it worked very very Good. And then the admin as the upper administration the supervisory administration came to the local authority and said oh what are you doing here? You are you are using a money that is not the euro. And now we examine it. And they they wrote 10 or 12 pages about it. And then they said, “Oh, no. It’s not possible. It’s not allowed. It’s not in the law.” That’s in the law doesn’t mention the Kima. And then the law doesn’t mention the king. It’s not allowed. And then they forbid it. That was the end of the first um local authority who accepted King. And um I would say it it stopped um a bigger step for the king because many many local authorities were interested and and uh bigger companies uh would have um participated when they have the possibility to pay taxes. Um so we have a big mineral water company. They said okay we we um we would join uh when we can pay our taxes and then uh it was forbidden and I would say it it stopped our one one important development of the Kima and and after yeah we we had some growth after that two or three years and then it stopped and then we we came to a stage where we we had a dead end and the dead end is of course that we can’t work with the local authorities which has a a big share of the economy in the region. Yeah. Another another um stop or break is the employees because we have a law which says the employees have to be paid in the national currency euro and there’s no exemption even if the employee and the employer are 100% um secure they they they want to make a contract and they agree to each other. Um, but when it goes to court, the court says the contract contract is not valid because the law says only euros. And these two these two um hurdles um yeah are are stopping us from from growing. Okay. It makes sense that you would be encountering such obstacles, but it sounds to me like at least you have not had the national government of of Germany or the European Central Bank attempt to shut you down entirely. Is that correct? Yeah, it’s there was there were talks behind the scenes and there were official talks with us and and it it was very interesting. Um, I remember um a talk in at the Federal Finance Ministry and it was a state secretary and he and he said in in secrecy to to the to the people who were there, I wasn’t there. I was I um we had a delegation of regional money uh and and two or three people went uh to to him and and he said um I know that I know that the regional currencies are circulating and um they are okay in this in this stage or in this size. But when it comes to the state, I I say to you, um there’s there’s a limit and you can’t get over this limit because they visited him to ask him to to make a law or to make something to make it easier for local authorities or or the state to accept uh taxes. and he said um that’s a limit and I know why this limit exists because um you can’t grow anymore so your size will be small forever and that’s okay we can arrange with it okay so we are tolerated and um yeah until now we are we can do what we want um in this in this uh small size we have to to apply some rules of course. So, money launder um rules or something like that. They are applied in a small um lightweighted um form in the kingawa. Um we don’t have to apply the same rules as the banks. That’s an advantage. Um but on the other side, um we are not allowed to Yeah. to make big business. Can you give us a snapshot sort of from 2002 or three or whenever it was that you started until now the the annual turnover of Keem Gower so that we can get a sense of of the trajectory? Yeah. Um yeah, we had we have a saturated um turnover now because in the uh first tw 12 or 13 years we had a growth um from beginning with 60,000 100,000 a few hundred,000 Kima and as you said now we have five six seven uh millions of Kima turnover in a year and and there we have our limit. So we don’t find more businesses in the region who accepts the kimgawa and don’t find more um consumers uh who suspends it. So we we have an um yeah we have a turnover of these five six 7 million. Uh we have a donation every year of 60,000 um king to the nonprofit organizations. many are part of it of the system now not only the the first school it’s 300 projects and I think we have about 30 or 40 projects which which have a bigger share in it and and they get uh 60,000 Kima and in addition to that many companies say in the meantime uh we don’t donate in euro at all we only donate in in Kima because we can spend spent our king or in an easy way to give it to the nonprofit and the nonprofit say okay um of course I take the money um it’s it’s easy money um and and and then they spend it again so we have um now a system which works which which is consolidated on a in a certain form but um we are also in a uh we have reached some limits here and um and and we we see and then we we have to change the perspective from Germany to France for example we see when when there’s uh when there’s politics which is open for this kind of idea then uh it can get to a bigger stage and and in in France um there is a law uh that was developed and it it says It says that local currency systems are allowed in a certain form uh when it is operated by um um common good company or a social a social entrepreneurship company. then we allow this kind of company to issue a local currency and that’s in the law of solidarity economy from 2014 I think and and that’s that’s a big achievement for us for the de for the movement and and especially for the France network and and many local currencies are uh were issued after this law and we have about 70 or 80 local currencies in France and we only have I think 10 to 20 in Germany and and I think that’s the difference when there’s policy behind um which backs this kind of idea then um then it grows and it it it becomes easier So your your vision for the future sounds more like one of proliferation of many many complimentary currencies as opposed to any of them growing significantly beyond the current scale of the keggo. Is that is that an accurate representation of of your perspective? Uh, no. I I I want the Kimawa at least 100 times bigger than now, but it it has to be the political decision behind it in the region and in the federal government or the European government maybe also. Um, and yeah, I I had a vision written 15 years ago. I said okay um it it would be wise to have 50% uh in a region organized within the region with local money and only for example 30% globalized and 20% in a in a localized form. and and um so we take some not only the money out of the global context also the low the the global production is is reduced to a to a form um that is that is adapted to the needs of people and I think we we produce too much now and the fast fashion problem all all these kind of products we don’t need. Uh we could increase the quality with regional production. Uh we have a more sustain sustainable way of using goods and um and of course we have a globalized um economy in in in many forms like tourism or like um like smartphones or computers, machines, um solar cells. So there can be many uh things which are produced globally. But when we think of meat or cheese or clothes or shoes, I think many things can be produced in the region again. And um yeah there’s a there’s a a citation of of of Kes um and he says yeah let let the ideas or the journeys or let the uh yeah let the ideas spread all over the world and be globalized but uh but the main things or must be in in a region or in a nation. So foods production should be sub subsidiary um health living uh housing these things um should be regionalized and many of them are right now and and and I think that could be stronger and um yeah many things which are global now um could is could be a bit less and um then then then in the end you get a a good balance of a globalized economy and a regional economy. Yeah, I I said okay let’s make a 50/50 economy. Um there’s another idea with localized forms um of neighborhood and and and and um and self-help uh movements. So you can also say let’s make one/3 for uh in the local uh form one/3 in the regional economy and one/ird in the global economy. Um that could be that could be an outlook which uh would help the nature which could help the social relationships between people and which um yeah which could be a balance um at all for for our society. I see there are many comments here on the right side and I don’t know when we when we look at it. Yeah. Yeah. I’ll remind um everyone in the audience that that um obviously Christian and I can’t really read the comments. So if anyone uh wants to jump in just use the raise hand button and uh and I’ll bring you on screen and you can join the conversation. Um, one question, Christian. Um, has there been any thought of attempting to link up regional currencies in in enabling direct exchange? Because for if you’ve got a keegower and you want to go to France um and participate in a complimentary currency ecosystem there you would have to first convert your keg into euros and then convert your euros into that other complimentary currency. Has there been any thought of um of facilitating direct exchange between compliment between regional complimentary currencies? Yeah. Yeah. there are some uh attempts of a credit clearing or clearing system. Um and um yeah, it it would be possible and we have some forms in Germany to have these exchanges when I I want to spend um the Kima in in in in Flborg or in Leipzig. I go to another town. We have small initiatives there and I can spend it right now. So I have 50 shops in Lipick where where I can spend the Kimla with a very small exchange fee. It’s uh I don’t know uh and we we we even uh yeah we we don’t have implemented a fee right now because we don’t have many examples of exchanges. Um so so we I can do it when I want and I have I have done it um a few times. uh but uh my living is in my own region. though 99% um happens in in in the Kima in my own region and I spend it here and it’s possible when I I travel to another town that I spend um spend my team there and um yeah we have some software techniques um and yeah we have the first European um meeting of local currencies in October and maybe that’s an outcome that we that we create a a clearing system for our local currencies and and the BA systems or the mutual credit system, commercial mutual credit systems. Uh I think they have such a systems for the credit systems um between the US systems and also um worldwide. Yeah. Do you have any concern that if you actually made significant progress in that respect that that might be the thing that would bring real opposition from established power? Like you know it’s one thing to have a regional currency with the annual turnover of five, six, seven million euros. It would be quite another thing to have a hundred uh regional currencies all linked up in a through enabling direct exchange and and and mutual clearing. Every every five years I get a phone call or email and I’m asked how much turnover do we have and this email comes from the German Bundes Bank and they make a they make a survey every few years. It’s not official. They also they only want to know from all the local currencies in Germany how much turnover do they do because they have a study from 2005 and it said okay it must be 1 million 1 million turnover and they laughed about it and and then they asked again and and we said okay we make five or seven million you make five or seven million that’s more than the 1 million for whole Germany. What happened in the meantime? And of course um yeah we are watched we are observed and um nobody cares really on the other side they they watch and it’s friendly. So we I was at conferences at the Bundes Bank and the European Central Bank and I discussed the negative interest topic. So I was at a conference for negative interest rates with the main speaker Kenneth Rogoff there. I discussed with him and many others. It was very interesting. Um so it’s um I think it’s not it’s not an opposing um yeah situation here. So they know us, they appreciate us and and we appreciate some things what’s the central bank do like the negative interest rates. So we uh we liked it when they introduced it and um and there’s also talking and and they were al also before they they initiated the negative interest in the European Central Bank they wrote a paper they wrote papers and in the papers say they cited uh Vergle and in papers they also cited Sikima though they knew before they say established the negative interest rate what the negative interest is. So they didn’t uh do it out of nothing. So they they know the history and and here’s the connection where an experiment can be helpful for the society. I think well it’s great that you’ve great that you have thus far kept uh a warm relationship with official. I have a I have a feeling that if if you grew much more that might change but um we’ve got a raised hand so let me um bring Robert Lowry onto the screen. Yeah Robert go ahead. Hi there. Thanks Christian. That was great. Um, I 100% support what you’re trying to do. And I say that in case what I’m about to sort of say gets slightly lost in translation as to um something that I’ve been looking at at a workound this whole business of getting too big. I mean, we’re in a crazy situation where you can do what you’re trying to do and the powers that be want to keep you small, yet you can set up a crypto asset, Bitcoin or whatever, and treat it like a commodity and you can grow enormous. Yes. And for no for no public good. So, just something I’m going to throw out there for you, something that I’ve been kind of considering and looking at myself is actually effectively packaging what you’re doing, but packaging it as a commodity so that you can then um you’re then participating in the rules that surround commodity trading and the crypto asset trading that’s out there at the moment. So you’re still doing exactly what you’re doing, but the actual package is a package of a commodity or crypto asset. I don’t know if that makes sense to you. So then you you turn around and say, “Okay, you want to shut me down?” Well, you know, we’re behaving in this, you know, these are sort of shareholders. these are whatever that they’re that they’ve bought into this this product and we’re paying them dividends from this rather than um or you know we’re paying them uh you know it’s like paying them bits of Bitcoin or something like that but in fact you’re paying a bit of your your keg so you know come at me if you want to because this is the way we’re going to do it but interested to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, I I would agree that um that we have these new kinds of technologies and and uh we had we had some open space here and in the meantime we had we have some regulation in in Germany too for cryptocurrencies. Um I uh yeah we are also discussing um to yeah to experiment with a crypto um software and we are we are applying right now for European fund for creating it and um so I I wouldn’t say uh that we don’t use cryptocurrencies but we are we are a bit slow and and so we use our our old software um and and we are bit conserv conservative. So we um we watch we observe what happens and we we don’t want to be part of a of a talp talp mania and therefore we are very careful we are very careful with the king to be uh yeah to be not uh uh in the front of of the cryptocurrencies. We we know a lot of of them but um yeah we are still careful and and uh with some other currencies we we examined if we should apply it and we have some currencies which apply cryptocurrencies right now as technic and yeah it would it works quite okay but it we don’t we don’t have a wonder here because uh as I said in the beginning the community comes first and the community has to integrate it and that is always slow. That’s not fast. Yeah. Um I suppose what it really was trying to get less on the technical side of it. Yeah. But just purely using the law that as exists I mean these crypto asset laws are coming in. So you you know you’re not destroying what you’re trying to set out to achieve, but you just use that law to enable you to work around um the constrictions that you’re currently facing. Yeah. Uh I I agree. Um in the meantime, we have more laws about it. So the wild west is is not existing anymore. And and because of that um yeah for example when we um when we um trade cryptocurrencies so when you say okay we define the kingo as cryptocurrency and then we would be a trader then we would have to registrate as trader and then we would have to obey the law for traders and that that is in Germany complicated. All things which are supervised in Germany are complicated and with the Kimo right now we are we have no official supervision of of our authority and and that’s an advantage at this stage. So yeah, it um yeah to to to make it bigger or to grow bigger um has to do with more administration uh with more supervision. So more administration costs and and then costs of course because you need more people to to manage or to administer it and um and so yeah it’s it’s always um always a question. Yeah. what is the next step and what is what makes sense for us. Yeah, thank you. But of course, I appreciate uh the idea. Thank you. Thank you. All right, we’ve got another raised hand. Cam, do you want to turn on your camera so that I can uh bring you on screen? There you are. All right, Cameron is a a previous guest on Economy 2.0. Welcome back, Cameron. Hello. Hey, Josh. Christian, love the talk. Got so many things in my head going, spinning all the gears. Uh, even Mr. Robert’s uh question had me jot down a couple extra, so we’ll get to those later. But, uh, it seems like you’re maybe the you you you’ve you’ve got a a particular vantage point that I’m fascinated in and that this has run for a long time. And so, maybe you can answer this question. And maybe the only person in the world who can answer this question of the patterns of succession where you know early on maybe you got let’s the analogy here is like you know from grassland to forest at first you get a very simple set of you know grasses and then they lead to building the soil and and you get to shrub land where there’s a little more complexity. Then finally when you’re at the other end of the succession it’s sort of stable around you know allowing for for example megapon or like bears or something in a mature forest because there’s not just one thing there’s many things. Anyways I’ll skip forward a little bit. Um you know have you observed that in terms of like maybe early on nobody did any transactions where it was labor based. It was all very simple food transactions or something you know and then eventually you had businesses start adopting it and a more complex kind of transaction became more prevalent. Have you seen this? Can you comment on it? Yeah. Um, in the beginning we only we all we had retail trade stores and and they um sold books and and some food and some clothes and a restaurant and um yeah, we have a very simple form of economy here with um parents exchanging then consuming and and the the business owners also consumed a little bit and then they exchanged their kingo back into euro. That was I think the first two years and um and and the businesses asked their some suppliers and it’s not possible in many branches but in the food sector it’s possible. So they asked um the the bakery or they asked um they asked the juice company or the mineral water company um they should accept Kimawa and and then a few farmers and a few um a few suppliers um yeah they tried it with skashkimawa and and then uh there was a stop because it was complicated for so was the businessto business um transactions and they said okay um when we should proceed here we need a digital form. So that was the main motivation to to program a digital kind very fast to um to make it possible for businessto business transactions and and then we had had a Ross trader and just a a pause there was there any sort of you know they were hoping to get a charge account and you had to give everybody unique ID like what what about going digital was essential to them? Um yeah, it it was for for the businesses it was the administration costs and uh you tell the federal government like was it perfect bookkeeping or what what what exactly was it that they said we can’t do it until you adopt the digital version because we need this part about it. Yeah. I I I I talked with the organic cross trader and and and he he began he began to ex No. He said um we have the we have the uh the driver of the of the lorry. He comes to the to to the shop owner and he said I I can’t imagine that he he gets now 5,000 king from the shop owner and then he he goes to another shop and another shop and in the evening he comes back with the 5,000 king and gives it to me and and therefore I don’t participate in your system because uh I will get crazy and and and then we said okay we must have the digital form for for for him and and we developed it and then I asked again and he said, “Oh, no. It’s too expensive for me.” That was my first experience. And then and then we we went to another organic Ross trader and and said, “Okay, I have a business model for you. We bring you five new customers.” And then he said, “Okay, that’s interesting. What should what do I have to do? Okay, you have to accept the Kima and you have to pay the fees and you don’t have to accept 100% only a part say 10% or 20%. And then he calculated and said said okay that’s that’s cheap we try and and and then we established it and he got his five new customers. he he got 10 new customers. Um and and that was the beginning of the businessto business um trans transactions and and then um yeah we asked suppliers um we we asked technical cross traders we we asked lawyers we asked uh ad um um tax advisors. So many people were asked and many um many said okay I participate because it’s easy um with the digital king so and that was a a big development step for us uh I would say we we increased from half a million king turnover to yeah to the three four five million and today we have 80% in digital Kima and 20% in cash. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And uh this this question about did you continue printing cashew Gower or was that 20% you know let’s say it grew five times since you built the digital amount of the proportion or is it more than that in fact it grew more than that. Uh yeah, we had uh we had 200,000 king turnover in the second year and we still have um 800 or 1 million king turnover in cash. So it’s five times more and uh but but we have we we see a decline. So we in the we we had 2 million or 2.5 million in cash and and today we see only uh 1 million or below 1 million Kimgawa. So from 2015 10 years later we have a decline of um 1 million Kingawa and we had a growth in the digital king and uh that’s the same development uh with the with the euro and um yeah we had we had the same development in the times of co um when more people used the digital payment methods um but it’s still exists and many businesses uh only accepts um the cash king and they only use the cash cash go and it works u with electricity without um so it’s it’s um yeah it’s still popular and um yeah people likes the motives of uh of our monies and uh so I would say yes Um yeah, we have both and we are still not giving up the cash goer. Uh but we have to say the main work so 60 or 70% of the work comes from the cash kinder. So from the costs we have the main part in the cash part and from the yeah from the success we have the main part in the digital. Christian can you um tell us a little bit about the administrative and governance side of the KeemGower? You had mentioned when you were introducing the what the KeemGower is that that the rules can be changed. Um how how does that process work? Yeah. So we have the um the plenary um or the members of the nonprofit organization and everybody who takes part at the King system will be a non um yeah an a passive member of the nonprofit organization Kimgawa. So he signs in the beginning something like a membership. It costs nothing but you are formally a member of the community and you accept the statutes of the community and you are invited to participate in the formulation or the discussion about these statutes. And in these statutes um these two rules which I mentioned before the the exchange fee or the demarrage fee are um formulated in the statutes and and we have um once a year um um a meeting with uh with members and we discuss all things and and and then we can change such uh statutes and and then the The CEOs are elected every year or every two years and um and they represent the organization and they are doing most of the work and they try to motivate voluntary workers. They try to um activate exchange offices and um they also try to to find other funds to develop the organization. Um so we are doing projects and there in these project we we have employees and we try to uh complement with these projects the core idea of the king. Yeah. But but we don’t get any finance for the king from the state or from from others. But we get um we get some funds for our projects. But I’m still not clear as to the governance structure of the Keem or organization. Like let’s say that a a group of members decided that they don’t like demerge and they want to remove that as a feature. What would be the process for adjudicating that that difference of opinion? Yeah. So they can um um formulate it in a in um um yeah in a notice to the CEOs and they uh put it on the on the list of the um topics in the annual meeting and and then the group can um can uh open or can discuss a topic and they okay, we want to change it and and that’s our um our opinion and we want to um yeah, we want a majority for our proposal and then there’s a decision about it and or vote and and then the majority votes about it. And for these kind of rules, we have the rule the major the majority can change it. And um there are other rules um um where we we need third 75% of the of the vote to have some fundamental changes in the statutes and um the dearrage is mentioned also in the fundamental man uh fundamental uh statutes and uh it would be interesting to to change the the fee peace but not to change the uh to the constitution. So it would be a it would be a paradox and and therefore I think um yeah we try to uh to that we don’t have majority decisions. We always try to have a uni unanimous um decision to have a one vote where everybody is heard and everybody um everybody can contri contri participate and contribute to the to the project. And um when we we have a conflict we try to to get some time and to have discussion to have some meetings and then uh with the next meeting um we have a with with a vote where there’s something of a consensus and uh we only had one or two times a majority decision and that was not good for our organization because we had then a split split uh split in the groups. So group split it and said okay when this majority says in this direction then we don’t u go with them and we had it in the 20 years uh yeah I think only one time and and of course um then um then we had um had a problem in in this year and and the CEO split up and we had a new election and and and then um yeah it went on that was I think 15 years ago. Yeah. And and and with this experiments we said okay we try to to make it more calm to have more meetings to talk more to each other and and to learn Yeah. how to yeah how to uh to bring the community first to to say okay the relations between people are very important and and uh when we don’t have the perfect rule we we should talk more about it I would imagine if you’re successful in growing it to 10 or 100 times its current size that would become more and more difficult to achieve what you just described. Um I guess you’ll cross that bridge when you get to it. Yeah. Yeah. I think the conflict after 10 years had to do with growth because we had many different uh regions in the Kimawa or different local local people in the Kimawa. So there one people were from pin at lake kim other were from tranchstein it’s a city 20 kilometers the other way Rosenheim and and they you saw they had a different thinking and a different culture and then they clashed and it took it took a time to understand how the culture of the hour works. and some had the patience and some not. And and I think that’s uh that’s a culture thing. Uh you have to learn or or uh we also had uh initiatives who split up totally. They ended because the the um yeah had problems to find a common culture. Yeah. Um, let’s change gears again. Um, you sound I’d like to talk a little bit about you and your your path some more. You sound like a pretty busy guy. I I find it a fascinating decision on your part that in the midst of all of this, you decided to go back and do a PhD in economics. Um, can you talk about why um what was your what did you feel you didn’t have that you would get by going and doing that? And um and looking forward now that you’re just about done with that. Um what is what are your plans? Do you do you plan to teach do or or was the PhD um done in the service of the Keem Gower? Yeah. Um yeah, I dreamt I dreamed a long time of making a PhD after studies. I wanted to do it and I didn’t found a um dissertation um advisor and I I went to my training ship as a teacher and then I forgot about it and but in the background I dreamed of it and and then um it was 20 uh 17 um so eight years ago I was asked to join um um a research project as a practical partner and I said of course yes king can be a part of it what are you doing and and the professor explained me what what she’s planning and doing and uh the more she explained uh the more I realized oh I could part of the research itself not only as practical partner partner Huh? And I proposed it and she said, “Yes, why not? You are an economist.” She is a um um comes from the um the um lawyer side or the how is it called the um yeah the law the law side. and um and she said yeah it would be it would be wise wise to have a combination of of law sciences and and economics and and the practice and with us two we have all three aspects in the research project and though we tried it was an experiment to start such an research project because um the specialty was that uh the research object was um the Kima and I was part of it. So, so I researched myself. I I am the experimentator and I am describing the experiment and and that’s that’s not new for some sciences but for economics it’s totally new. Yeah, it’s totally new. uh in medicine we have examples or in sociology um yeah or or psychology I think psych psychologists they began with these self experiments and and PhD works about these self experiments but but in economics I think it’s quite new and so I tried to to describe the experiment and and to get the data out of the kegawa experiment uh and and to to have some statistical work, to have some description to have some description of complimentary currencies and um yeah to dive deep into the scientific side of of complimentary currencies and um yeah um my advisers were critical but in the end they said okay that’s interesting that’s an interesting research it’s not Yeah, it’s not not um the best research of the world, but it’s very interesting. It’s innovative and and so we let you pass and um I hope so. So, it’s not finished yet. So in in the be beginning of September I have my uh my exam and and I hope I will um yeah I will pass and and then then it’s it’s over my journey over seven years. Yeah. And it was only possible because the topic was about complimentary currencies and the king. So it’s not a different topic that what I worked was the same where I where I researched and though it have synergies and I think it helped also my practical work to have a more scientific thinking uh and reflective thinking about my practical side and for the research work I think it’s it was very good to have this practice in it. Yeah. But I I was in a research research association and I had some professors who said that’s no research work. That’s not that’s not science. And we had the debates and we had the discussion and yeah now I’m here. Yeah. So, this conversation has actually gone quite differently than I anticipated because what I did not know about you is that you’re much more motivated by the complimentary currency side of things than the Sylvio Gasel/Durrage side of things, which of course is is my my my main interest. Um, but I’m curious if at all to what extent you’ve had an opportunity to engage the public in discussion of GEL of demarrage of uh of a exploration of a fundamentally different model of economics. I think um I have one chapter in my or two chapters in my uh dissertation. Uh, one chapter is about the um the Gazelian approach and can kynesian approach and and the other one is um is an econometrical research about the Kimawa and to look on it um yeah on the on the economic effects um or the effects on the unemployment in the in the region and yeah it’s it’s experimental because the data is is is is a micro data. I don’t have micro data. I only have micro data from the local community and I have the turnover and the exchange and some data of the kingd and and and then I um I made some econometrical um comparisons and found out that the Kimo had an effect in the last 15 years in the region. And you see it in on the micro level when you compare uh some um some cities with others where the where the kingo is strong to cities where the king go is not strong. Then you then you see the differences and you see a a positive impact of the king on the unemployment and uh of course it would be better to have 10 times more turnover. Then you see much more in this data. And of course when you look at the data of the veral experiment, you see you have two points in the beginning and one year after. Then you see a decrease in unemployment and you see an increase in the in the uh local currency issue from the from the city and and but you you don’t have a proof because you you only have two or three data points in the veral experiment and uh the advantage of the chemo is I have monthly data for 20 years and and that’s a big thing in in data science. Yeah. because you have a very long-term um data series and then then it works even if it’s uh it’s micro it’s very very micro so I discussed it with with many uh with some uh specialists in this field and there are not many uh there are not many specialists uh I think worldwide we have 500 or 1,000 people and I discussed it with 10 people I think and uh first they laughed about it but then they said okay it could work. Yeah because the principle is the same as when when I took the the macro data of of the St. St. Lewis Fed statistics for example for for the dollar emissions and the velocity or the depth of the US and the um and the GDP and the unemployment rate. Yeah, I get the data out of it. Um the the principle the principle of comparison is the same and and you you can apply these meth methods and um yeah I I I met one one of these guys who who invented this method method. He got the Nobel Prize for economics for it. he went to Frankfurt and introduced some some ideas um on on a conference and um yeah I think um it works it works uh also for these regional um models and and then you can conclude that when when this kind of rules and and issuing works in the local level. Um why why don’t you transfer it on the macro level? Yeah. And Kenneth Rogoff stays says the same thing. He says, “Yeah, when you get into a crisis, um let’s do 6% um negative interest on the euro and the economy will work.” And we show in the Kegar system that with a 6% negative interest, nobody’s interested to order it and nobody um yeah stops the economy. And I think that’s that’s a very important solution. And here uh I think we have the strongest connection to between Gazelle and and the king uh and the complimentary currency. Just as sort of a concluding thought in my role as sort of a proponent for GEL, you had you mentioned that that you have at least temporarily sort of plateaued in in terms of overall turnover. I wonder and I’m sure you know that Gasselle even though he’s fairly he’s he’s a fairly obscure figure that the people who know about him and who are who come to believe in his ideas get pretty passionately um motivated. I wonder if perhaps engaging in a more intensive public education campaign around his ideas might be a vehicle to pour some more gasoline on the fire, so to speak. Absolutely. Absolutely. I would hope so. And um I I think um yeah yeah if if you create games if you create um a good wording and and so on I think it’s possible to to convince and to um yeah to spread the idea and um yeah and yeah of course we have uh different money reform ideas and and Um I’m still convinced that u that the idea of circulating money is still important. Um we we have the techniques to to um yeah to issue endless money in the world. Yeah. And and many are fascinated by this idea. When you look at modern money theory and you look at positive money say many say oh we don’t need this kind of dearrage fees and these uh circulation fees we because we have the possibility to create uh money out of nothing and if we have a crisis we create more that’s so easy why should we have these um Yeah, these problems in psychology to say people I take you something away when it’s easier to say I create when you hoard it. No problem. You can hoard billions. I create billions. It’s easier because everybody is happy. But of course we we know in yeah when we look at history then we create many problems out of it because when the guy with the billions say okay I want to spend it then the economy has a problem and then the guy say I want to hoard 10 billions or 10 trillions then the economy has also problem with the inequality which we see today. So, um yeah, it’s it’s a very important thing to look at it in a more organic way to to see okay, money has much to do with balances and balance balances has much to do with flows that money must flow then we can get balances. Yeah. And and I think the Gelian school has understood these um these organic thinking of blowing of the flowing of money and these balance balances in the money accounts and that’s very important and I and I am convinced that that we have to um to spread this idea here further and and um yeah also have to appreciate what is possible today with techniques. Yeah. So we I think there’s no finished concept of a gazelleian money. I don’t know if we have some concepts or some ideas but it is difficult to say okay should we o only issue a state money one monopole money with with a demorrage fee or should we issue many regional monies with a demorrage fee or should we um should we uh or should should we go on to let the banks create the money But they simply applies and demorrage on their private bank money. So what’s what is the solution when you think in the gazelian world? Yeah. And and and and therefore I think the king example brings a new type into it. The idea of decentralized money. Uh maybe it’s the most complicated um proposal because you have um many different uh decentralized monies. um you maybe have different dearrage fees and uh it’s it’s maybe this may be complicated um for the complexity of the world but um yeah the world is complex and and people are complex and cultures are complex and I think maybe it’s better to adjust the money in a complex way to the kind of living and to adjust people to the money system and even it’s if it’s a monopolistic global gazelle money um I’m not sure if we are happy to adjust to it and maybe it’s better to adjust these monies to to the people or to the different people’s yeah well that last point you talked about was actually one that I had planned on talking with you extensively about because as as you know Gasselle Gassell himself said there is either state money or no money and so I don’t think it’s at all clear that he would have supported um these kinds of of projects that doesn’t mean that they’re not consistent with his principles but I I have my my doubts and I will never know because he died before any of these projects ever um ever took off. There was one I think in the last year of his life. Um but anyway, that will be uh fodder for a future discussion. I thank you so much for for joining us. In my mind, you are the most successful Galian in history. I mean, people talk about Veral all of the time. Vergle was a town of 4,000 people. The project lasted 13 months. So that is tiny in comparison with what you’ve accomplished. So um congratulations. I am hugely supportive and admire your work and I I hope that this will be just the the first time that the Economy 2.0 audience will will see your face and hear your words. So thank you so much and uh we’ll be in touch. Thanks to the audience for joining us. We will see you in two weeks. Yeah, many thank thanks and I will try to read the chat and when anybody wants to uh discuss or have questions uh please write me and um and then I try to to answer you. All right, take care everyone. Bye. Take care. Bye-bye.