Discover the inspiring story of Chris Sylvester, founder of the community-driven organization ‘Getting Clean,’ as he shares his journey from long-term addiction and incarceration to becoming a catalyst for social change. In this heartfelt interview, Chris reveals how he turned his struggles into empowering initiatives that promote recovery, community support, and transformation. Learn how his work supports those affected by addiction, mental health challenges, and social issues, demonstrating that with purpose and resilience, positive change is possible. Perfect for those interested in mental health, addiction recovery, community empowerment, and social activism.
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Welcome back to the YouTube channel and um
I have a individual with a story but also someone who’s doing positive things within
his community and for other people more so other people more than for himself. Um,
so I’m going to welcome onto the podcast I’m trying to think. Do I call I’m going to
call you Chris? Chris. I’ll call you Chris today. Is that all right? I I was going to
go full government name, but then I thought I changed it. Um, well, welcome, mate. So, thank
you for having me. No, not a problem. Listen. Um, no, it’s it’s more of a pleasure for me to have
someone on like you because I see a lot of the stuff that you’re doing. Um, and I think go you
you know like people like yourself I like to get on because it’s just the whole point is the the
amount of work that you’re doing for me. I believe you should get more you should be noticed
more and maybe you’re more of it’s more like self-consciously because you don’t push yourself
out as much because then you don’t want people to go look at me look at me whereas I think that you
should be getting those props that you deserve. Thank you. Thanks man. So we are going to do um a
whistle stop of your journey through beginning and there is no end because you’re continuing. Yeah.
Um so we won’t say end. So my first question which everybody will know um is who are you? I am Chris
Sylvester the founder of getting clean. Getting Clean is a community interest company by legal
structure, but also recognized as a LERO. So that’s a lived experience recovery organization.
But most importantly, I’m an addict in long-term recovery. That’s who I am. Yeah. But you’re also
um you just mentioned there the founder of getting clean and again we want to I want to touch up on
that and you have brought some some little props for me that yeah and I am going to give you the
I’m going to say your slogan for you as well when we do get a chance. So all I’m going to say is
is again we’re not about glamorization. No, we’re not about that. Um, and a lot of things that we
do, we’re all about demystifying all these myths that these young people are seeing. So although I
know you have openly admitted to going to prison, um, it’s going to be one of them things that
I personally we’re not going to cover. So whatever the crime was, not interested. Yeah.
We just know that you’ve been to prison. That’s the consequence of action. The consequence of
actions. Yeah. Because what I you know yourself, people come on and you see other podcasts where
people go, “Oh yeah, I did this and I did that. I did and then 20 years later I changed my life.
Well, a young person can look at that and go, well, he changed his life after 20 years. So,
so we don’t want that. So, what I’m going to do is take you back in time. Yeah. Now, one of
the one of the weirdest things is I know a bit about you anyway. Um, so I’m going to take you
from your earliest memory to being 13 years old. Right. So from my earliest memory, my veah the
one that comes to mind just now. Yeah. I remember getting in trouble for throwing cars, metal cars
at passing traffic on Whingate Junction. And I will have been around about I’d say five. Okay.
five and like I remember my dad bought me these cars and we lived in a in a house on Whingate
Junction. We just moved there and things weren’t good between my mom and dad and I think that that
sort of that were a demonstration my behavior at that point were a demonstration of what were going
on. It were kind of like a protest because my dad would come and see me and he’d bring me gifts
but he wouldn’t spend time with me. Yeah. So, and I remember being an angry kid. I always
had anger problems. Didn’t understand the world. Found it really difficult understanding
my place in society in the world and always have done and still learning now. But yeah, the one
of the earliest remember memories I get that comes back to me is that Whingate junction and
throwing these metal cars at cars and and my mom giving me a slap for it. Allegedly. Alleged.
No, this is back in the day. So I always say allegedly because when we talk of parenting
of when we were young completely Yeah. Well, listen, we won’t get into that. Yeah. like we have
different beliefs and we’re all entitled to his beliefs and I get that from a stance of sort of us
demonstrating the responsible nature of you know and views and things like that that were just my
experience uh growing up and and you know what I’m going to put this out straight away now and say
that I had the best possible upbringing within my circumstances and environment and I were loved you
know and they were never abused you know what I Um, and when I were naughty, yeah, I were
punished. So, there was a bit where you touched on mom and dad splitting up. So, do you think
that had a consequence? Do you think that was um is that do you think or believe that’s where
your behavior changed? Was it a want a sense of wanting a father figure? I think potentially
I had so I have real difficulty being able to analyze distant distant memories. Okay. But what
I do understand and what I know is that I was a product and I am a product to my environment and
my upbringing were very challenging and difficult because of the circumstances that my mom and
dad were in. you know, and and the environment. And that definitely impacted my development
um and understanding of of me and my world. So, I think I had more of a best friend than a
father figure. Yeah. So, was you was you primary middle high or did you go primary straight to
high? No. So, I went from St. Bart’s primary school to Armley Middle School. Yes. So you went
primary middle school and then from middle school to high school. So So we’ve spoke about So
primary school all good. That’s where your parents I’m guessing parents split while she was
in primary school or was it middle school? So it were an ongoing thing. So like in an ideal world,
mother gives birth, father’s there, it’s a loving environment, you know, like the support that
want the scenario. So my mom gave birth to me and my dad weren’t present. You want about they
were together, but my dad were off doing his thing. Yeah. He never come to hospital. He never
supported my mom during that that sort of period. Um they were together but they had a business and
that business became they were went bankrupt. They lost everything. Yeah. Um and that sort of
that were an ongoing process. I think my mom tried clinging on to that marriage as much as she
could until my dad actually run away and left her for another woman. Yeah. Which had a significant
impact on my mom and in turn had a significant impact on me and my development. You know what
I’m So obviously your mom was going through her traumas which then parents going through the
traumas can then relay their traumas onto the children. So and that’s where like the connection
between my mom and we’re still we’re working on this now to this day. You know what I’m saying? Um
but the one that were lacking that weren’t there. You know what I’m saying? Because my mom weren’t
able she want she weren’t present due to fact that she was she was struggling with uh depression
severe depression. Okay. So, she found it really difficult to look after herself, let alone me.
And they want that connection. I think I were a reminder of a failed marriage. Do you know what
I mean? Um, we’d gone from having uh, you know, luxury and comfort to to being destitute,
you know what I’m saying? To having nothing, uh, being homeless and then having sort of a
council house that we moved into, you know. But I’m I’m I’m guessing that your mom did the best
that she could with what she had. always always my mom always did the best that she could during any
time that she she were there dur during my sort of um adolescence and and from sort of being a baby
to a small child there were lots of difficulties that my mom had you know what I’m saying that I
experienced through lack of connection you know through through the environmental impact of
having an absent father. Did you suffer with that though? Um, so I’m still suffering with that.
Yeah, cuz I I’m guessing if your mom suffered with that lack of connection, then that would have
impacted on you, which then gives you that lack of connection because the one person that you’re
with majority of your time, which is your mother, there’s a there’s a connection. So this is so the
one so that one Exactly. And and like I say often, kids are very narcissistic in fact that they
don’t appreciate other people’s uh emotions. They’re very self-centered of kids because they
can’t the concept of understanding what somebody else is going through. And you said something
interesting. It’s I don’t know the quote, but you do, but it’s one of your favorite quotes and
I heard you say today something about kids. Yeah, it was something to do about about children being
children or something. So, youth is wasted on the young. That’s that’s the one. You know, youth
youth is wasted on the young and what we know about it’s one of them in in hindsight if I
knew what I knew. 20 years ago or whatever, things have been different. The reality of it is,
you know, like we’re developing as small people, as children. Um, and we we don’t have the capacity
or the understanding of what’s going on for anybody else because we’re just not there in that
development stage in as minds. No. And that’s just it’s just how we develop as people. Still not
there even when you class yourself as an adult. Well, you’re learning, don’t you? Constantly
learning. I think I think that we learn, don’t we? And I think that as experiences shape
us. But I definitely missed um constructive and positive role models in my life, male figures that
um helped me develop as a man and as a boy, you know, and as a person ultimately um because the
influence that I had from my father, like I said, he were more like a best mate. So he’d turn up on
a weekend and he’d whisk me away and we’d go we go I don’t know to London to Imperial War Museum
and we’d stay in a fancy hotel or we’d jump in a jump on an airplane and and go somewhere you know
like it took me around world took me to Australia it took me to Singapore to Koala Lumpa to Penang
it took me all over Malaysia um and then I come back to Armley and I’m living in a council
house and like my mom’s my mom’s partner at times you know he’s unemployed You know, we
were struggling to make ends meet, you know, like with beans on toast. Yeah. Beans on toast.
Yeah. My ours was um corn beef and rice. Yeah. So, we we we’d have corn beef and rice. So, you’ve got
like um you’ve got like a a double you’ve got like a a a an ulterior world that’s going on, aren’t
you? Contrasting. Yeah. cuz you you’re at home, mom Armley struggling. Dad boundaries, discipline,
structure. Yeah, these are all rules. Yeah, these are all the things you’re coming back
to that because your mom needs to want to keep you grounded because she can see what’s going on.
Your dad comes, shows you all the fancy stuff. So, you don’t want to lose that because then what
happens then is you go, well, I don’t need to listen to you because my dad does this and my dad
does the other. So, your mom sets the boundaries. But as kids, you look at that and you go, it’s not
attractive, is it? It’s not attractive at all. You don’t understand how much you need him as a kid?
Like I say, you know, youth is wasted on the young and hindsight is a beautiful thing. So you So
does this continue with your dad until through throughout school through middle school? Sorry.
Cuz we were going to 13, wasn’t? Yeah. So we got to So we got to 13. So it’s like at that point
where you’re starting secondary school, I So So now Wesley’s High School. Yeah. First year. That’s
where That’s where the first in called intake, wasn’t it? Was it intake? No, no, no. West leads
High School. It’s called Dixon’s. Oh, sorry. Yes, I do apologize. It’s the one opposite. Yeah. Yeah.
So, this is it. Yeah. So we’re up Armley now where I’m from. Big up Armley. Uh, so yeah, we’re with
there. Um, and this is where sort of like my first introductions. So, I’d had solvents before, done
stuff like that, sniffed and stuff like that. But West Leeds High School is the first introduction
to heroin. Yeah. That I had and ultimately Yeah. It’s uh it’s the only education that it provided
me. Yeah. So I had real difficulties. So, you know, like as a 12stroke 13year-old child entering
into high school with lots of complex issues and difficulties. Yeah. Really low self-esteem. Yeah.
Uh massive massive ego. Massive ego. Because like we’ve identified there were a connection problem
between a maternal connection that weren’t there. It were lacking. Ultimately that that made me
perceive the notion that there was something wrong with me that I wasn’t good enough because I
couldn’t understand what my mom was going through because she was depressed. Yeah. So ultimately
it comes back to me. There’s something wrong with me. What’s not right with me? Yeah. As
a defense mechanism, as a survival instinct, we have an ego. The ego wants to show there’s
nothing wrong with you. Yeah. And and I had lots of factors. cuz there were lots of issues during
my development years that that prevented me from learning and I compared myself constantly as we
do to other people. So people were learning in school and it seemed that they were getting it.
Yeah. Okay. And I couldn’t get it. I couldn’t get it. I couldn’t even I couldn’t even sit
still. Now they probably say, “Oh, he’s got ADHD or he’s there some back he’s dyslexic, you
know.” Like I remember it’s like looking at me and trying to get these assessments done and uh
a teacher coming out with a comment. Yeah. From uh a statement. Is it dyslexia? It can’t be
dyslexia because if it were dyslexia need a wheelchair. Yeah. Okay. And that’s that’s the
understanding. Yeah. Of conditions back then. Yeah. cuz it was very it was very different
back then, was it? You didn’t have all those all those pseudonyms of ADHD and not many people
knew about dyslexia and XY Z. So, I’m guessing now this is where you’re quite defensive and
then you’re actually become rebellious because of the fact that people are trying to get you
to learn. Yeah. They’re not understanding you, but you’ve got your defense up. You can’t learn.
So your mechanism it’s like dyslexia when they’re telling people to read out and they get because
in school if you remember you had to stand up read and then the next person would follow on the next
person would follow on but somebody with dyslexia would just kick off and go I’m not doing it and
so they get kicked out of the class because they don’t want to get embarrassed in front of the
classmates they’d rather sit out in the hall. So it’s like this year for me I’m I’m I’m in an
environment where potentially I’m with my peers and you’ve just put me on a stage. M that you
don’t want to be on. So that a real struggle I struggle Yeah. I struggle learning academically.
I’ve never been strong at it. I’m still not good at it now. Um and then you you you’ll ask me to
do something either a mathematical equation or uh you’ll have me to read some and I struggle with
it. So what I’m going to do is I’m going to use that stage that platform to try and make you look
like a fool. Do you know what I mean? Because if I can make everyone laugh Yeah. I feel like I’ve got
validation. You know what I’m saying? I feel like I’ve I’ve got a purpose. Do you know what I mean?
It gives me something. I’ve got power. Again, we’re talking about power. We’re talking about
control. Yeah. Yeah. I get I understand that. But this is where I’m a little where I think I
need I’m trying to get the finer details because you said this is where you first get introduced to
heroin. Mhm. So, how do you go from trying to pick me make people laugh as your defense mechanism?
Yeah. To then going then going, “Ah, I’m actually going to But do you actually know what it is when
you do try it?” Or is it something where you go, “Oh, I will try it.” So, let’s set the scene cuz
I remember it clear as day. It’s It’s another memory. Same as chucking the cars as a child.
Yeah. It sticks with me. It’s like engraved on my mind. Yeah. So, I’m in I’m supposed to be in
a class Yeah. where I can’t cope. A mathematical class where I have a real issue with teachers.
Yeah. Because I can’t conform, I can’t behave, I can’t learn. I’m struggling in that environment.
So, I’ll take myself out of that environment. to either be external truancy or internal truancy.
So the internal truancy means that I’m in the cubicles at the school toilets avoiding going to
class because I don’t want to feel stupid. I don’t want to compare myself to other people. I’ve
got all sorts of issues going on. So I’ll lock myself away in a cubicle. Yeah. Okay. In the next
cubicle. How old are you at this point? Sorry. 12 13. Yeah. Cuz in secondary when high school
you’ started at So you start at 13. Okay. So, it’s like this. Well, I’m I’m almost certain that
that I would have started school as a 12-year-old, but either way, yeah. I’m in that cubicle. And the
next cubicle onto me. Yeah. I hear rustling a tin foil. I hear lighters flickering. Yeah. I don’t
know what these noises are initially. I I smell a really strange pungent smell. I hear hushed
voices. Yeah. Naturally, I’m inquisitive. So, I peer over at cubicle top and there’s two boys from
year 11. So, I’m year seven fresh. Then you’ve got two year year seven uh year 11 boys. And these
kids, yeah, are like they’re icons to me because they’re constantly in trouble. The tough kids, do
you know what I mean? They’ve got this reputation. I’m attracted to that. and they’re in there and
they’re tooting they’re tooting smack. Yeah. Okay. So naturally I find myself in there with
them and that were the very first introduction that I had to wear with. Yeah. Yeah. Because now
you said that and you’re saying they’re year 11. You would have been year seven. So you would have
been 11 years old cuz I thought you was old school where you went primary middle then high. So you
got primary and then Okay. So that’s your first introduction. That’s my first introduction. So
in your opinion, knowing what you know about yourself, do you are you do you believe that gets
a grip of you straight away? So what that gave me straight away? Yeah. I’m not saying that I became
addicted overnight. No. Because I went through periods where I didn’t have it. It’s not like
I were having it every day from that point on. Right. Okay. But I’d use other substances. Yeah.
at that first introduction to heroine. Yeah. I’ve talked about all the trauma that I experienced.
Yeah. Talked about the discomfort that I felt, you know, being me, not fitting in, not
feeling accepted, not feeling good enough, not feeling like I had anything to offer, really
low self-esteem, really self-conscious, outwardly seeming confident, but internally shrinking,
constantly, comparing myself to everybody else. being in pain. I describe that as being in pain.
Yeah, that were pain. That were that that were painful. That were difficult at times. When I bump
into the number one painkiller Yeah. That gives me everything that I need. Yeah. It change I change
how I feel. Yeah. Change changes how I feel. Gives me comfort. Gives me security. Gives me acceptance
within a group of people that I look up to. peers connection which I’m lacking. It proves to start
giving me an identity that becomes my my identity. So from that point on, you know, like I’m I’m
engaging with these older lads. Yeah. And I’m trying to get substances that predominantly end
up being constantly this quest for heroin. So I’ll work my way through different it’s mad because
it’s it’s attract it’s laws of attraction. Yeah. So it’s like while ever I’m I’m sort of behaving
how I’m behaving which is really negatively people that are attracted to that are people that are
similarly acting negatively. So anybody that’s positive that’s around me. I don’t want to be
around them if they’re doing well in class. I can’t do well in class. But I can fit in. I can
fit in with these guys that are causing trouble. Yeah. And these guys that are causing trouble,
we’re going out. We’re stealing. Yeah. We’re going out. We’re stealing to get drugs. Yeah.
And them drugs always, you know what I’m saying? Always end up being smack. Yeah. So, what age are
you now? So, I’m booted out of school now around about 13. Yeah. Okay. And then I spend about
2 years. Yeah. bobbing about criminal justice system. So they tried getting me to go to Armley
Park referral unit. It was a nice fit because I’m from Armley just up the road. Yeah. Do you
know what I mean on Armley Park? Um so so sorry. So knowing what you know now. Yeah. Over that
2-year period. So you kicked out of school at 13, did you say? Yeah. Yeah. So I actually registered
at Leeds Addiction Unit by the time that I’m I’m by the time I’m 14. Yeah. 13 14. Registered.
Yeah. At Leeds Addiction Unit in treatment. Yeah. Mental. Absolutely mental. When you look at
that. Yeah. Now I’ve got four kids. Do you know what I mean? Three that that I’m actively involved
with. One that I constantly try. But but still. Yeah. Four kids. And I look at them and I think,
“Wow.” Do you know what I’m saying? So when you did you put yourself in treatment? So I followed
the patterns. So people that I were hanging around with were all jumping on scripts, prescriptions.
Yeah. Okay. We’re getting medication. So I went through the process. Yeah. Of getting registered
with leads addiction unit. And I organized an appointment at home visit. And I always remember
the guy that turned up Steve Redknapp because I now I understand that he had lived experience but
you know back then that weren’t disclosed. Yeah. But but the relationship that I developed with
him Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Meant that now I I’m aware that he he had a similar journey
to me. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That he’d been through through the journey itself. But I
I’d got an visit and my dad were kicking about waiting. Wouldn’t go to work. normally go to work.
So, I’ve been booted out of my mom’s. I’m living with my dad and he’s not going to work and I’m
thinking need to go. I’ve got this appointment and then next thing you know there’s a knock at the
door and it’s Steve Redknapp from Leeds Addiction Unit. Do you think your dad knew? Of course he
knew, man. Because any like you saying any other time he was on this particular day. So, he knew.
So, he wouldn’t asked me dad. He would have had a letter would have opened it. Do you know what I
mean? Do you know what I mean? were seeing what was going. You’ve got to understand at that point,
Kyle. Yeah. Like my mom and dad didn’t understand what were going on with me. They didn’t know what
were going on. They thought I had mental health issues. I definitely had behavior problems.
I were always getting arrested. I were in all this trouble. Do you know what I mean? Constantly
committing crimes. They couldn’t understand what were going on. They didn’t know what were going
on. So naturally my dad being a stew, do you know what I mean? Cotton on to the fact that there
was something going on this specific day and he waited around and there were a knock at door and
straight away he introduced himself and I think he did that as a professional. Do you know what
I mean? As as Steve Redknapp from Leeds Addiction Unit and the game were up then. You know what I’m
saying? The game were up. How much did you shrink in front of your dad? I would you know what it
is? I think even at that point. Yeah. I think that it were kind of a relief. Do you know what I
mean? Because like I tried for so long. And what happened after that is is sort of I got I got an
understanding from my parents that were a little bit more sympathetic and and and supportive. Yeah.
because they started to understand what were going on and and my addiction even at that point were
out of my control. You know what I’m saying? Yes. Yeah. I understand that. Um was your dad your hero
then? So my dad is my hero. Still is. That’s your hero? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. So my dad does is
the man that educated me. Yeah. So my dad So I’m excluded from mainstream school and my dad has a
business. So he had a packaging business and he used to go to work with me dad. Do you know what I
mean? When me dad knew what were going on with me, do you know what I mean? He helped me in lots of
ways. Yeah. To stop committing crime. Yeah. And to go to work with him. Yeah. He supported me. Yeah.
I don’t want to go too much into that. Yeah. No, no, no. That’s fine. But he like he looked
after me, did my dad. Okay. And he and he helped me develop an understanding and learning, a
practical learning, you know, like a a mechanical learning with my hands. Yeah. Being involved in
things, understanding how things work. But people, everybody learns different ways, aren’t they?
So some people need to be hands-on. Um, so what happens from there? So we’re around 14 there,
aren’t we? So what happens from there? So from there, I’m just committed. So I’m already with
best intentions of my dad. Yeah. The reality of it is addiction is is an illness. It’s a disease.
I’m dis at ease with myself. Yeah. I don’t fit in anywhere. I’ve got all these issues. I use
substances to avoid having a relationship with myself. But it don’t matter how many substances
I can get me hands on. namely the ones that are of my choice which I always end up with which are
are primarily crack cocaine and heroin which are both painkillers in their own right. One’s like
a general painkiller, overall painkiller. One’s a local anesthetic. You know what I mean? So,
I’m drawn to these painkillers. That tells you I’m in pain. Don’t take a rocket scientist to
work that one out. So, but it don’t matter how how much I get, it’s never enough because that’s
addiction. Do you know what I’m saying? Yeah. So, even if my dad’s helping me, paying me a bit of a
wage to to go to work with him, do you know what I mean? and learn and then I’m going off. It’s
still not enough. Do you know what I mean? It’s still not enough. So, I’m still committing crime
and it gets to a point where I’m off. I’m away from family home. Um I’m involved in committing
crime with other like-minded individuals. Um not not serious crime, but at this point just
more shoplifting. Do you know what I mean? uh sort of regional shoplifting going and and
and committing still committing you’re still committing crime to fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Not going to go out go out. No no no we we don’t anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Um so I’m guessing then
there’s there’s stints in young offenders. I first went to prison at 15. Yeah. And that opened up the
door then you know. So, so that were another cycle in itself. So, from that point on then I became
like a small cog in the criminal justice system in the prison and it’s constant then it constant
cuz once you’ve touched it once you’ve been in and all of that I think when you’re younger it’s like
um it’s like a badge of honor. Well, the thing is it it just became an occupational hazard. And the
thing was like when I got to young when I got to YO’s my first pad mate had been in in a referral
unit with him. So these were all people that I knew and it were just like a youth club. So they
were definitely your peers weren’t there. Yeah. So there were people Well, there were people exactly
the same. There were people car that I were drawn to. Do you know what I mean? There were people I
were drawn to that were from similar backgrounds that had similar difficulties that were likeminded
that had their own challenges the same as what I had. Yeah. Okay. And them challenges and them
difficulties the symptoms always manifested themselves in looking for a solution which were
external which were substances. So the kid that I were padded up with exactly the same as me.
Yeah. Yeah, he’s messing about with substances, you know what I mean? Has got already addiction
problems. Now that kid still hit madness every now and again. Yeah, I see him. Do you know
what I mean? And he and he comes into recovery, but he dips back out because of this, man.
You know what I’m saying? So, we’ve tasted young offenders, right? And where you first go
to prison, which you said at 15, and then I’m guessing there’s you’re still addicted to heroin.
So like I went so the first time that I went Yeah. I won’t go into the crime, but like I I were under
influence of alcohol and I got got arrested for an offense because again I tried I’d put down the I’d
moved to Bradford to try and address my problems with heroin and I’d connected with a group of
peers, youngsters, just young kids, do you know what I mean? And we’re all drinking drinking and
taking other substances, do you know what I mean? Um, but they were it was I suppose you could
say recreational as kids, do you know what I mean? But for me, the party never stopped. And
I’d bounce from one person to another person, do you know what I mean? And I’d find more
like-minded people. And then I found myself in a situation where, like I say, ended up I ended
up committing an offense and going to prison, you know what I mean? And being remanded for a
period. Um, and then upon release coming back to that area, having difficulties in that area. Um,
and then moving back to leads and as soon as I moved back to leads, I would just straight back
in it. So, yeah, straight back, straight back with old people, creature of habit, straight back
in with with graft doing what I were doing with these like-minded people. So, this goes on for I’m
guessing a few years now. Of course, it’s been so So, but any stage um is there a stage where you go
right, I need to stop? Because everybody has that don’t they have the stages and they might they
might they might go back using again but when is the when is the first stage where you go look I’ve
I’ve got to change there’ve been lots of instances throughout that journey there’ve been lots of
instances even till that point now so around about 17 18 talking about now yi so going from
going from new offenders um juvis up on to y don Caster um 18. There’d been lots of instances where
like I’d seen the damage that were being done and I’d wanted to address the problems that I had,
but I didn’t understand addiction. Yeah. My my my family didn’t understand addiction. I don’t
even think that um a lot of services that I were involved with understood addiction. And I still
think that they they don’t now. Do you know what I mean? I think that like I said, I learn still
like I’m I’m open-minded and and and I learn about addiction daily. Um but back then there were
lots of instances and points where I realized that the results of my actions had caused problems not
just for me but for other people. Um that had made me to to want to start to change and address
them. But the power of addiction, you know, I were never able to do that. I would never a
consistently be able to follow up on that. You know what I’m saying? Okay. And is that because
what why though? Do you think that was because of the system because of a lack of understanding or
was it you not actually being ready at that time if you’re being honest to yourself? So I think
that I think there’s factors I think there’s always factors within situations and scenarios.
Yeah, there’s always and I don’t think that you can put the blame solely on anything. Yeah, I
think that we have to bear responsibility for his actions and we have to understand things.
Um, and like like I highlighted, they want the awareness that they were today. Um, they want the
support available that there is today. I wouldn’t aware of it if there were. Um, and ultimately
the timing weren’t right for me to get recovery. One thing that I’ve learned about life is timing.
Yeah. State of mind. Yeah. And perception. Yeah. And if you can get them three to marry up.
Yeah. You know what I’m saying? At right time, that’s when you get traction. And that’s when you
can keep the momentum going to battle addiction. That’s how it has to be. Yeah. And it just never
was. So, I’d go through periods where I’d do all right and I’d stop for a period and then my
head would convince me it’d be all right to do something that ultimately would lead me back down
that path. So, I’d be back involved with people, you know what I mean? Or I’d be doing whatever
it was that would lead me um always back to these primary drugs which were heroin and crack at the
time. Mhm. So back then and you’re saying so it’s a vicious circle in it because you get to a stage
where you’re actually stopping. You’re stopping off your own accord. So you’re able to stop but
then you go so your confidence builds. I’m able to do this now but then you’ll try again which then
brings you back into this vicious circle again. I don’t think as well there were ever a truly a
point where like I’d um reached a I’d surrendered where where there were a complete surrender. I
don’t think that there were ever a time that that had happened. There were time that things got bad
and situ situations were bad scenarios and sort of um I’d be in prison or I’d be destitute or I’d
be getting an ID for robbing somebody or some you know what I mean there’d be there’d be some I’d
be under pressure you know what I mean somewhere be going on but I’d never reached a point where
I’d completely surrendered you know what I mean and I understood what that meant until I found
recovery. it. So there were there were an instance where like at the age of 20 I found myself in in
army jail. I shouldn’t have even been there. You know what I’m saying? Actually I think I I think
I know. So is that is that the one where you lied about your in court? Yeah. So you go to court. So
you go to court and and I learned this from a kid from from Gipton from corn beef. Yeah. Come on.
Yeah. So he told me, you know what I mean? cuz cuz he were on he did it the other way around. So
avoiding going to Armley he used to constantly be in Doncaster cuz Doncaster for him were cushy.
You know what I mean? So he lie about his date of birth and everybody were like wow he’s not you
know what I mean? And so we knew it were a graph that he could pull off. Do you know what I mean?
So I I’m from Armley so like logical thinking the girl that I’m seeing at the time she’s bringing me
parcels through visits. You know what I’m saying? fat visits. If I go to Armley, easy to keen,
you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Nice. So, I lie about my date of birth in court, add a year
on, end up at Armley, have a massive culture shock cuz it’s not Doncaster. It’s not like a new build.
It’s like a old castle. Do you know what I mean? It’s all horrible. It’s horrible. The sounds, the
smells, the the the Do you know what I mean? That just like it like no windows. age. So it was just
like it were madness. So anyway, and then like I’m trying to reach this girl that I’m seeing who
I’ve supported for a long time who I’ve introduced to this life or she was just a good girl before
she before she met me. She were going to work, she had a job, all this stuff. Do you know what
I mean? Um she just smoked bud, do you know? And and then she met me. I convinced her to have a
go with me on foil. Do you know what I mean? And then opened up the doors to addiction for her. She
became a prostitute. Yeah. And like I I believed at that point that I loved this girl. Maybe I did,
you know what I mean? I’m still learning about love again now. But like um she were my partner
and I felt responsible for that introduction and she weren’t able to support herself how I’d been
supporting them because I I were committing all crime um and feeding both our habits. So when I
went to prison, she she sort of she started being um a working girl. She started working on beat
to feed her addiction. And that absolutely blew me mind because like it was first instance where
I took responsibility for my actions and thought this is my fault. This is what I’ve this is of
my making. Do you know what I mean? And um I were hearing all sorts of stories over wall about what
were going on. Um, and I just had to get out of there. So, as soon as I was shipped out, I was it
like, you know, that part of my life, I put that part of my life behind me or tried talking about
heroin and crack and the damage that that had done, you know, I put that behind me. Um, went to
Everthorpe and started preparing for the the next stage of my journey. You know what I’m saying?
um sort of telling myself that that no more were going to be involved in them substances. That is
so that was you. I’d said I told myself that at that point and it were like so I’ I’d gone to I’d
gone to HMP ever when it was still called that and um yeah baseline were about cast niche. So,
I got this vision, yeah, that I were going to um I was going to I going to be big on the dance
scene in in Casa Loco on the floor shorting out. You know what I’m saying? Glamorize it. I got this
this this vision. This is what I’m going to do. So, I practiced the dance moves. Do you know what
I mean? Yeah. Uh I had all the music, you know what I mean? I got captivated. This will going
to be me upon release. You know what I’m saying? That was your idea? That Well, I did it. I pulled
it off for a bit. Do you know what I mean? Okay. But it won’t it was sustainable. Do you know what
I mean? So, does that pull you back? Does that pull you back in? Yeah. So, because it’s still
So, it’s still a substance in it. So, and the thing is I can’t use that recreationally. So, I’ll
take whatever I can. So, I’ll be like my addiction will manifest itself in substances. Yeah. Yeah.
So whether the whether the whether it’s cannabis, whether it’s it’s cocaine, whatever it is, as long
as I’m taking summer, as long as I’ve got some, my addiction’s happy because it’s got something
to manifest itself into. Yeah. It’s got a form. It’s in me. It’s preventing me from having a
relationship with myself. I don’t know any of this because I don’t know about recovery, but all I
know is that I can’t use drugs like anybody else. can’t use it like anybody else. People People
can can uh go out partying Friday, Saturday, Sunday and then go back to work or go back
to normal life, whatever they’re doing on a Monday. I’m still trying to to find somebody to
party with, you know what I mean? Desperately trying to continue the party by myself, you know
what I mean? Playing music, getting off my head, you know what I mean? unable to to deal with life
because drugs had always been a solution. Uh so I’m guessing you still got a relationship with
your mom and dad at this time. Yeah. So my mom and dad always were there for me. Always were
there for me regardless my my mom won’t visit me in prison, but my dad would. Okay. Yeah. So
like my dad would visit me regardless of what crimes I’d committed, what I’d done, what if
I’d stolen from family, what whatever it was, he’d always be there and he’d always be willing
to visit me until he weren’t able to. That’s good. Still still was there for you throughout that
time. I think that was his amends. I think that he took responsibility for the damage that were
done through through his um his involvement or lack of involvement in in my development years you
know like through early life it won’t be available were he and I think that when he overcome his own
mental health issues and got a diagnosis and got treatment and then started tackling his own issues
with substances and things like that you were able to he were able to be more responsible and present
and be a dad. Was that a better relationship then? Yeah. So like my dad like I say he was always my
hero. He was always my role model. He were always somebody that inspired me. I loved him dearly.
Do you know what I mean? And again he did the best that he could at that point. He never he
never believed that he were causing me any harm. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? or that um you
know like what he were doing were bad. He were just having fun. Do you know what I mean? Okay. He
was trying to make it fun for you also. For him as well. Yeah. Yeah. They were a relationship. Do you
know what I mean? It were like a relationship that we had that were more like a a friendship than
there were no boundaries. Yeah. Whereas your mom was putting them boundaries. Mom always had the
boundaries. So everybody says that there’s there’s a turning point. There’s always a turning point or
a light bulb moment. Yeah, we all we all have it at some stage. Um, so is yours a light bulb moment
or is yours a realization that Yeah. So there were a series of events Yeah. that led up to me sort
of understanding that that you know change were a requirement and that that that that’s that
surrender that I talk about um was something that we needed but I didn’t understand what that
meant. So when I when I truly learned about what surrender meant well when I found recovery and so
we’re talking about me I’ve been I’ve been being released from prison you know like all the trauma
that went on around that sort of last sentence with my dad passing and not being able to to
sort of support my mom or my family or be present having to deal with with uh phone calls with
me dad on a night on wing being taken to phone privately and people shouting out the door you
grass and all this just nonsense having to deal with that environment you know trying to speak to
my dad trying to um support him from and not being able being in prison yeah and not being able to
be with him you know what I mean just absolutely broke me um and I were desperate like I said got
this qualification I got off medication. I’ had been treated for hepatitis C. I’d done as much as
I could to try and present my dad with a package of belief that things were going to be all right.
Things are going to be all right now because you I’ve done all this work, Dad. He didn’t see that.
And then sort of the last time that I were in Wealstun and I were visited in the visits hall,
my mom becomes emotionally available for the very first time. Yeah. um and tries hugging me to tell
me that my dad’s died and she’s crying and I shut her down because I’m surrounded by people peers
that I’m in jail and I’m like don’t be crying. I don’t want to deal with this here and now I’ve got
to go back to wing will deal with it when I get out and I don’t UG. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
And I shut her down. Do you know what I mean? And that were the first instance where my mom had
been emotionally available. Do you know what I’m saying? Looking for a connection. So going right
back to my childhood and where that’s not being the case. The first time that it has again, do you
know what I mean? This facade, this ego, this this uh character defect of mine that that’s all born
from addiction has prevented me from having this relationship. Do you regret that not hugging her?
Yeah, 100%. I regret so much. I regret uh being afraid. I regret being afraid all my life. Yeah.
Of being able to say that I’m Chris. This is how I’m feeling. Yeah. I’m scared. I don’t feel good
enough. All that stuff. Yeah. I’m I I regret that, you know, and I think, “Oh, well, what if
things had been different?” It’s a regret, but would I change it? No. You know what I’m
saying? So, where does the change start then? So, the change starts. So, imagine this year I’m I’m
released from prison. I go to my dad’s funeral. I can’t make it through the day without
getting off my head. Come 1:00 in morning, I’m out on the beat with the working girls scoring
both smack and crack. The cycle starts again. The cycle starts again. Fast forward eight weeks
if that. I’m injecting in my groin. You know, my mom’s booted me out because she can’t have me
around her because I’m making a poly. I’m stealing from her. I’m lying. Addictions rife. And um and
I’m sort of in a really dark place. Fast forward, I’d say another eight weeks and then I’m um I’m
actually in hospital with a cellulitis infection. and I can’t bear weight. My legs red raw. I’ve
got this infection because I’m injecting in my groin in dirty area with dirty equipment. Um, and
I’m just obsessed with drugs again. I’m homeless, living in a car and a doorway. Um, so car gets
towed away. Just just catastrophe. Car crash. Car crash. And I’m a PO, bear in mind. So
that’s a priority prolific offender that has to provide urine samples. Yeah. For my
probation officer. So my probation officer, shout out Donna. Big up Donna. Um she helped me
save my life. She’d been visiting me throughout my last sentence. She’d been trying to support
me sort of emotionally as well with what were going on with my dad. Um and she she were fresh in
the job as well. So, she had the passion and the desire to carry change. You know, I hope that she
still has that. Um, I think that she does as well cuz I met her recently. But ultimately, you know,
like she gave me an opportunity. I got booted out of hospital cuz I couldn’t stop using and uh and
I was supposed to provide a urine sample that were clean. Not possible cuz I’ve been using all
through my stay. But attending that appointment, you know, like with my probation officer, my
mom were there. She’d picked me up in a taxi, there was a guy there at probation that
mentioned, you know, um 12step recovery. You know what I’m saying? Narcotics anonymous. And
I just saw it as an opportunity. I thought, “Wow, if she goes for this, she’s not going to recall
me fixed term back to jail cuz she should. She’s duty bound to do so.” But she went out, man. She
went out on a on a on a limb and and she said, “Look, you know what I mean? Try this meeting.
See what you think.” And in my mind, I’m thinking, “I’ve hit the jackpot.” Because I’m going to
a meeting where she don’t even know if I’ve been or not because it’s anonymous. I know what
that meant. Yeah. My mom’s supporting me. So, my mom’s giving me £10 to get there. Do you know
what I mean? So, I’m thinking, “Yeah, I’ve got£10 I can score with now.” You know what I’m saying?
And then in true addict style, I’ve invited my little brother who’s 10 years my junior. Right. So
is that as a witness? Yeah. So to validate what to validate um the fact that I’m trying and I’m going
to these meetings, but also um because he’s going to pay for the travel. So you’ve still got your
tenner. So I’ve still got my tennis so I can I’m not having to break into it for bus fair. Do you
know what I mean? I’ve got the means to score. So, I went with the intention of picking up loads
of jargon and spiel of convincing everyone that I were trying to address my problems uh
with addiction, but in reality, you know, like I would just use it as a way to manipulate
people. So, I went to the meeting and it’s mental. Yeah. because I’d had this preconceived idea
that it weren’t going to work for me this meeting because there were going to be nobody there like
me that had lived like me that had experienced the the sort of criminality and then the jails
um the crime and the substances. I didn’t think that anybody went to meetings to talk about the
problems. Do you know what I mean? And it’s like I was blown away because I went with my brother
convincing people that I were trying and somebody from my past opened door to me. So this guy Yeah.
I used to buy weights of crack off to sell. Do you know what I mean? And I didn’t even know that he
smoked. I knew that I thought that he might party recreationally, sniffing and and go dancing and
carrying on like that, but I didn’t think that he would have been on the pipe. You know what
I’m saying? But it was. and um it his psychosis had got that bad that he tried committing suicide.
So his support workers, you know, he jumped off a veranda in leads and it landed in this narcotics
anonymous environment by way of his support workers and um he told me he took me to the
side he said Chris if you carry on using there’s three things waiting for you and that’s jails,
institutions and death. And I knew what he was saying were right because I’d experienced all that
straight away, you know, like I I recall being a child, you know what I mean? Going up through all
these institutions. Um I recall being a child cuz I going to prison, you know what I mean? In
and out all my life. And then more than that, the death bit really really resonated because
like I’d experienced lots of overdoses leading up to it. You know what I mean? of my mom banging
outside of ambulances seeing if I were inside while I’m getting um the lock zone treatment
you know and overcoming addiction being stabbed you know having me head smashed in with hammers
rammed off at road all sorts of stuff associated with criminality and addiction yeah that go hand
in hand so I knew what he was saying were right I knew it but more than that he asked me a question
he said how are you doing Chris how are you really doing. Yeah. And you’ve got to remember I’m about
nine and a half stone, 10 stone at best. Yeah. Got knits. Half my teeth are missing. And I can’t
even stand up because I’ve got this infection. Can’t even get hospital treatment because I can’t
manage. I’m that chaotic. Yeah. So, it’s like how am I doing? And and it first time that I had
an opportunity to truly look at myself because I thought I had it going on. I thought I had all
answers. You know what I mean? I thought I knew everything and my only concern were getting more.
Yeah. You don’t actually see a true reflection of yourself, do you? It’s it’s an illusion, isn’t it?
Really? So all all I see Yeah. is is that10 wrap in me pocket. That’s all I see because that’s
all my that’s all that’s all that mind is going to you know that 10 pound is soon going to become
a 10 pound rapper and I’m gonna score and that’s going to help me try avoid having to deal with
life and I don’t even see it like that because I’m that consumed with obsession that all I’m
really focused on is the feeling that I’m going to get from that. But when you break it down and
look at it, Carl, it’s because I can’t deal with life. Yeah. I can’t deal with life, man. I can’t
deal with me. I don’t know who I am. Never knew. Yeah. And then I’m surrounded by all these amazing
people that I would have judged, do you know what I mean? That I would have looked down on before,
do you know what I mean? That I would have had an opinion on, you know what I mean? I would have
thought were better than them. Do you know what I mean? And they’re talking honestly about how
they’re feeling and about what’s going on for them. Yeah. And it absolutely blows my mind
because they’ve got the courage to describe feeling how I feel. Yeah. And then this is your
change in it. This is Yeah. So this is it. So I’m like what? Do you know what I mean? The reason why
I said that and the reason why I jumped in then is because throughout you’re telling your journey
you’re telling that particular story of going to that place then is where you you started smiling
straight away the smile like sometimes you can’t hide your your emotions can you and that’s where
you started smiling like like the pennies dropped like and you know now I found like well listen
this is let me describe describe it like this. Yeah. The easiest way for me to describe it. Yeah.
I’m really big on community. So big on community. Yeah. And I’d found my community. I’d found my
tribe. I’d found my people. Yeah. I’d found that identification. I’d found somewhere where I
realized I can actually learn to be myself. And you’re around likeminded people also, aren’t you?
are going to understand the things that you say, what you’re coming from, your feelings, your
emotions. They’re not going to judge me. Yeah. I’ve got this fear that I’m going to be judged
all my life and I’m in an environment where I’m not going to be judged, where I can be myself,
where I can talk openly about what’s going on for me without fear of somebody using it as an
opportunity to think, “This guy’s gone soft. I’m going to have him.” Yeah. Do you know what I of
fear of how you would have acted around these same people before you went there as well. Yeah. So the
complexity of character and addiction is just mad. So being around these people, like-minded people,
absolutely blew my mind. And I realized, you know, for years, professionals have been trying to help
me. And all I’d ever seen is a lanyard. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? um and some academic
research or some qualification or or some training or and in your mind you’re always going
to be saying how do you know what do you know you don’t know what I’m going through X Y and Z all
those little things that are happening for you so it’s like this yeah people used to talk to me
and and tell me things were possible and all these people wanted to support me and they had the best
intentions you know what I’m saying they wanted to help me and they tell me that things were
possible. And in my mind, I’d think, you don’t even know me. You don’t know me. You don’t know
that I’ve never succeeded at anything in my life. You don’t know that I’m a failure. You don’t know
that I’m not good enough. Yeah. All this negative narrative that’s self-taught. Yeah. That I’ve done
myself down with for years. You don’t know what it’s like to wake up with that obsession to use
drugs, that overwhelming obsession that manifests itself in a compulsive action, which means that
I can’t even I don’t even think about can’t think of anything else other than that. Yeah. So is and
then then and then tell me you know what it’s like to deal with the shame and guilt of what you’ve
had to do for knowing that you’ve kicked your mom’s door off. Yeah. Or knowing that you’ve done
whatever you’ve done that’s caused such damage and impact. Yeah. you’re telling me that you you know
how to live with that shame and guilt. You don’t know what it’s like to be me. And that alienates
me. And that’s a bump bump bump. And all I’ve ever had is people that follow protocol that are that
are trained that are wearing lanyards that have clipboards that are asking me questions over
and over again. And it’s us and them. It’s always been us and them. And then for the first
time, you then meet a community, like you say, your tribe of like-minded people that are going
through the same things as you, who are saying the same stories, are telling the same tales, they’re
giving the same information, their feelings, their emotions exactly how you and like you said,
there’s no fear of them using that against you, either. So that’s your turning point. That’s that
that’s you there in in a nutshell. I can see with a smile that’s Yeah. So, this is this is when I
realize that there’s a solution to the problem that I’ve had for years and that the problem’s me.
Yeah. Okay. So, the problem’s me and that as long as I address that problem, the symptom, which is
the the the drugs and the behaviors and all this stuff that’s going on. Yeah. That can be addressed
if I work on me. Yeah. If I start developing this relationship with me and who I am and that’s where
I start to recover and that’s where I grip hold of this recovery and I develop as an individual.
I embrace spiritual principles. So honesty, open mind. So was yours sorry was yours 12 steps?
Did you do 12 steps? So I I still attend meetings. Yeah. Um I still attend meetings. Uh I still work
a 12step program. Yeah. Okay. I’m still of service within that fellowship and I still sponsor and I’m
still sponsor. Yeah, I was going to say sponsor as well. Okay. So, we have that we have the it’s
not a light bulb moment. I think you called it a realization. It was a series of events. Series
of events. Okay. That leads you to timing. Yeah. Timing state of mind perception again. So,
you’ve also said you’re big on community, which obviously I see within your but I’m going to
take I’m going to take you back. I don’t know if you’ll remember this. There’s one time I’m pouring
with sweat. Yeah. I’ve had to I’ve had to go all the way into town because it’s the only place
that I can get printing ink from. Yeah. And I walk into this shop and there’s someone in there who’s
having issues with printing themselves. And I look at this person. This person looks at me and this
person goes, “I know you, don’t I?” And I go, “Oh, blah, blah, blah.” And you go, “Oh, look, it’s
Chris.” And I go, “Oh, it’s, “Hey, Carl.” Blah, blah. We end up having a conversation. Just
starting this up then. Yeah. Yeah. Just just starting this. And then obviously you’re doing
stuff with getting clean now. How does getting clean? We’re going to get on to the soap, by the
way. Yeah. But how does getting clean start? What is what’s that where where does that man manifest
from? So getting clean is born from frustration. Okay. So and an understanding and a requirement
for change. Now I’m talking about systemic change and I’m talking about societal change. So I’m a
deep deep dude you know get down. Yeah. So I look at like we said environments. Yeah. And I look at
my environment. So picture this. I found recovery. Yeah. I found a new way to live. I’ve embraced
it is pretty much all I’ve got. Yeah, it’s all I’ve got at that point, I believe, because I
ain’t got an education because I were booted out of school as a child. I’ve got no legitimate
work experience. It’s not like I can go back to uh being a Sparky or a joiner or a builder or
whatever. I’ve never really had a job for long. Um, but what I’ve got is my recovery and I’ve got
a desire to want to support people cuz that that’s where my recovery is. Do you know what I mean? I
only keep what I’ve got by giving it away by being of service. Yeah. Yeah. And um I gravitate towards
working in services supporting homeless people, you know, because that’s been my journey again,
you know, and it’s where I access support. So naturally, it’s where I go. But working in these
services, I became quickly frustrated because I identified lots of gaps within services that
people fell through. Yeah. Um, and that it weren’t all completely how it should be. You know
what I’m saying? And that people weren’t receiving the best support that they could. And I knew
that lived experience had so much more to offer. lived the experience meant that again I could
bypass the barriers between pre professionalism, do you know what I mean? And then and and that gap
and say, “Look, man, you know what I mean? I know what I know what you’re going through. I’ve been
there.” No professionals ever said that to me. Yeah. And even if they have, they’ve had a lanyard
on and there’s been professional boundaries that’s prevented them saying, “Look, I know what that’s
I know.” Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? I know what you’re going through. I’ve been there
and you know this has been my experience. It’s not about me. It’s about you. But like there’s
hope. Do you know what I mean? You can do this. Um so how where So you’re going from this. So you
have this all this all this is going in your life. So I’m working in Look at this one. Yeah. So I’m
working in homeless services. 50our weeks. Yeah. In a homeless shelter. Mad mad shifts. Yeah.
So I’m doing 12-hour shifts. Yeah. on average five a week. Yeah. Well, you can see the link
between homelessness and addiction. Well, they’re intrinsically linked. Same with criminality,
same with mental health. It’s all intrinsically linked. The homelessness is just the end result
is the product is again it’s another symptom. Yeah. Yeah. So, it’s like I see all these people
just coming back through services in and out of services and no one really dealing with root cause
of problems. And I know from my experience that everybody has skills and strengths. Everybody has
them. Yeah. You’re good at some, you might not be good. You just need to find out what it is. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And everybody needs a purpose. Yeah. And when you have a purpose Yeah. And you
focus on skills and strengths. We’re talking about empowerment. Then we’re talking about
finding a solution to overcome addiction. Yeah. We’re talking about creating opportunities that
allow people to integrate back into society and become leaders. Yeah. So, it’s like for me, I’m
seeing these people coming back through services. I’m seeing them not I’m seeing them at times
Yeah. being traumatized and retraumatized every time they’re involved with services because it’s
just about outcomes. It’s about moving people on, passing people on quickly. Do you know what I
mean? and say right that’s a positive outcome for the service not really a positive outcome
which actually means you can get more funding but it’s not actually a positive outcome for the
person which is a positive outcome for you as an organization. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you can say
you’ve done B tick box this is what we’ve done it’s positive outcome in reality it’s not positive
for individual and the same individuals are coming back through services more and more traumatized.
This is what I’m saying and and I realized right I’ve got my recovery I’ve got my lived experience.
It’s a constant reopening of trauma isn’t it? Of course it is. And and you know what it is?
Yeah. It’s like every assessment that you have and you go through that assessment, you relive
trauma because you people want to know about all people want to know about everything that you’ve
been through and what’s gone on and you know and I’d sit in these assessments and I’d think I’m
not asking these questions. I know that I know that Joey has just been in an assessment yesterday
and you know the the weird thing about it is and I don’t know if you’ve come across this but some of
the people that will sit and ask these questions. They will ask them questions because the chances
are this is the only chance that they get to sit with somebody who has that issue that has those
problems that has that trauma. In any other walk of life they’re not going to get the opportunity
to do it. So it’s about extracting information. It’s it’s more about extracting information, not
necessarily to help the individual. Yeah. So, I came up with the idea, right, I’m going to
bring people together in recovery. Yeah. To tackle environmental issues in the community because
in tackling environmental issues in community, we will create better communities. Yeah. Like I
like I’ve said, it’s all about community. It’s all about being of service. Yeah. And it’s all
about focusing on people’s skills and strength and empowerment. So my amends process and giving
back means that I can go out and challenge stigma by being of service to my community by doing
something just so simple as picking litter. Yeah. With my friends that are in recovery with me
and saying to people, look, this is what recovery looks like. We’re here. If you’ve got a problem
with drugs, Yeah. if you’ve got a problem with addiction, if you’ve got a problem with alcohol,
you know, if you just need someone to talk to, we’re here. You know what I mean? Come come and
get involved. Come and help us. Let’s clean up, man. Like if that’s just a lifesaver for
just one person, you’ve been successful, aren’t you? But I don’t think it’s just litter
picking cuz I’ve seen you do it. No. No. Right. Okay. So that’s how it started. So initially it
started in November 2021 as an un-constituted group just turning up with with the with the
objective of tackling environmental issues and promoting sustainable recovery. So that were the
initial and then and that were the initial concept and as it grew I realized wow we’ve got something
here. Do you know what I mean? Because there were lots of people that were in recovery that
were wanting to give back that were wanting to support each other that had different experiences
different skill sets. Yeah. So it’s like right empowerment again teach me how to do something.
Show me how to do that. Now if you can teach somebody how to do something Yeah. The sense of
achievement and empowerment there is immense and it’s better than any feeling that you can get from
taking a substance when you see somebody develop as a as and you’ve been involved in that. You’ve
been part of that journey but more than that but you learn a skill to be able to teach somebody
else and and it’s also as a as a an add-on we can talking about recovery and what’s working in
recovery to make recovery sustainable. So these relationships the the transactional. Yeah. Well,
it’s like the thing they say give a man a fish, he’ll eat for the day. Teach him how to fish for
a lifetime. This is it. So it’s like as the group grew, there were more skills available within
this group. So we could start looking. There were kids that had done conservation projects. So
we started learning about conservation projects. We started learning about the litter that we
were collecting because we were putting it side at roads in these big purple bags, loads of them.
But then thinking what’s happening to them, where are they going? So we had a little educational
excursion up to Viola plant and we learned, wow, they’re being incinerated, which is no good
for environment. We’re about looking after the environment. So we learned how to recycle and
then we made a pledge to recycle the litter that we collect to process it upon collecting it so
it’s better for environment. And then we carry that message to community and let people know
that we’re actually out here doing this. You could be doing it at home. Do you know what
I mean? It helps the environment. We carry a message of hope by actions. We’re of service to
the community. We create wildflower meadows, plant plant flowers in deprived communities, you know,
making nice spaces, helping pollinators, nature, bringing nature and recovery together. Then
we start doing repair jobs for elderly people, disabled people, fixing fences, decorating houses,
doing DIY, learning skills from each other, creating pathways to employment. And also you got
to remember some of these people that are within your own community of of of of ex offenders
or what they may have certain skill sets that they’re actually teaching one another when it’s
coming down to do building fences or painting decorating and stuff like that with gardening.
So you’re using what you what you already have within your own community. Yeah. And that’s
it exactly. And what we’re doing then Yeah. is we’re learning skills from one another that are
transferable. Do you know what I’m saying? So, how how do we get onto the soap? So, the soap, we
knew straight away then at that point, yeah, that we needed an income stream and like I I’d always
been involved in selling drugs and I knew how important it was to have a product. So, I came up
with a concept getting clean soap. Yeah. So, this is soap that’s made in therapeutic workshops. Can
I ask you a question before you go into details? Did you ever cuz you cuz your soap is called
getting clean. Getting clean soap. Did you ever have any push back on that name? Yeah. Only
because I’m thinking of you going getting clean. You would go getting clean from substance misuse
or getting clean from alcohol misuse or whatever it might be. But then you call your soap getting
clean. I’m guessing there’s organizations. So this like this year like there is real again stigma.
you talk about stigma. Yeah. So, we’ll have policy makers, uh, bureaucracy that that say, “Oh, you
can’t you can’t say that. It’s not politically correct to say that you’re clean.” And I’m like,
“Who are you to tell me?” Yeah. That’s had a lifetime of addiction that I can’t say that
I’m clean. Now, by me saying that I’m clean, I’m not implying that somebody that uses drugs
is dirty. What I’m saying is my system is clean. I’ve managed to get clean. Yeah. My system is
clean. My probation officer asked for a sample. She wants a clean sample. Yeah. Now, we love
people. We love addicts that are addicted to drugs. We love them and we want them to recover.
Yeah. So, we came up with the concept and the name getting clean to tackle environmental issues.
Cleaning up. Yeah. The product to clean with. So, you you use it to clean your hands. Yeah. You
know what I mean? It’s made by people that are in recovery. Yeah. Whether it’s politically
correct to say they get they’re getting clean, that’s up to them to say. That’s for them to say.
Yeah. I’ll celebrate my clean time and I’ll wear my recovery as a badge of honor because it’s been
a lifetime achievement. Yeah. And I only get one go at it. Yeah. Every day. Yeah. Just for today,
I’m clean. That’s it. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz every 24 hours. Yeah. That’s it. That’s all I get. So I
came up with the the concept of of so obviously because it fits so well with everything that
we’re doing. So it’s it’ be easy to market. Now like I’ve said I were involved in selling
drugs. So selling drugs is a saturated market. Everyone’s at it around my end. You know what I
mean? All over city. The people I were involved with that’s what they’re up to. Very competitive
market. So you have to be good at selling. You have to be good at marketing. You have to find
niches. Yeah. You have to find strategies. Plus, the product has to be good. The product has
to be good, man. Yeah. If it ain’t good, you have to sell it cheap in in in turn over.
I think with your product, the difference that I see in your product than what I’ve seen with
any other soap. And I’m not just saying it cuz you’re here cuz I don’t know of any other story of
any other soap. No. Well, this is the thing. So, a brand So, a brand has to have a story. Yes. So,
a brand has to have a story. And this soap, yeah, has its own story. Yeah. This soap is on its own
journey because each bar is made by a miracle. I’m talking about someone that’s overcoming addiction.
Yeah. That’s supporting its community, that’s supporting individuals to overcome addiction. It’s
a natural product, a clean product. Yeah. Packaged in sustainable material with so much social value.
You know what I’m saying? So much impact right here in this product. This is a building block of
communities. What flavor we got here? What? So, this is lemongrass and sweet orange. Oh, okay. I
get to keep this. Not that one. No. No. That’s for somebody else. You’ve got one. You’ve got two,
aren’t you? Oh, yeah. But I don’t I don’t This says lemongrass and sweet orange. I’m sure mine
didn’t say sweet orange. Well, all right. Listen, you get you got to subscribe though after that.
You know what I’m saying? Beautiful. Beautiful. We got a beautiful out of it. Um, so we’ve got the
soap and I want to keep this. I’m so I really do want to keep this one. Genuinely, it does actually
smell that good. You know what it is. And I tell you another thing for me, I don’t know where it’s
come from, but for me, anything citrusy, yeah, I always associate with clean. So, lemon or lime,
anything. He’s nice though. You You’ll keep that one like I say, but you can follow the link on on
the Tik Tok and all other ones. I will do I will do. Okay. So, that being said, that is nice. Yeah,
that actually is nice. Right. So, that being said, I’m going to ask you a couple of I’m going to
ask you a couple of more questions. I mean, some of them I think two of them I’m going to
know the answer to. I I will know the answer to them because everybody that’s come on with a lived
experience will always I’ve never met anybody that said anything different. So I I’m not presuming
you will. So it’s a two-part question. The first part of it is is if you went back in time
Yeah. would you change anything? And if you did, what would it be? So I think Yeah. I think
instinctively Yeah. I want to be different. Yeah. to everyone else. So today, because we only get a
day, don’t we? Yeah. We only get a day at a time. I think the one thing that I would have changed
Yeah. if I could is I think I would have hugged my mom on that visit. Yeah. You know what I’m saying?
And I think I would have embraced her. Yeah. And I would have gone back to myself feeling like
I’d achieved the connection with my mom. Yeah. So now I’m going to pull you now cuz you’ve been
smart that because I I I know you’ve probably go cuz most people will go no no no. Well listen most
people say no I wouldn’t change because it puts you on the path takes you where you are now leads
you to where we are today. Sitting down leads you to the so however that hug with your mom actually
doesn’t change your destination does it? No. No. So it don’t. So the thing is because I don’t have
an introduction to to recovery at that point. I’m still powerless. It’s not going to that hug
in suddenly going to mean that I suddenly get recover more for your mom than yourself though. I
think I think potentially. Yeah. And I think for both of us, but it’s something that I’ve never
really it’s ne I’ve never really thought about that because I’d always been sort of conditioned
by that still that you have to we we people a lot of people that will watch this will may understand
it but I think when you come from a background of legal experience and you go through traumas you
learn of ways to forget that there’s a way that you forget it and what you do is you as soon as it
comes in, you you dismiss it straight away because you can’t afford for it to be there because of
what it can possibly do to you. So, you learn you learn a way and there’s a mechanism. I don’t
know how how it is. I I genuinely don’t know how, but survival instincts. Yeah. There’s so many
things that happen that I continuously block them out. And maybe for as a generational point
of view of generations, you couldn’t be seen as weak. And and I do genuinely still feel like that
now at times where I think and this is the thing. So any given time, yeah, you can switch it up.
Yeah. So it’s like madness. So I can be talking to somebody from my past and I can suddenly
morph back into my old person and that old mentality and I think, whoa, what you doing? Do
you know what I mean? Where did that come from? instinctively. It’s built within you, isn’t
it? It is. So, it’s like going back to my mom and that situation, it wouldn’t have made
a difference um to to to my um journey, but again, it would have been an opportunity
and it made me feel good now imagining that happening. Do you know what I mean? But in
reality, I whenever I’ve been asked before, would I have changed anything? I said no. Yeah.
I wouldn’t have changed anything. Yeah. because I’m where I am today as a result of my journey.
Boom. Yeah. Okay. So, I’m gonna let you off with that one. Um because again, like you say, any
other time, any given Sunday, you’d have said, “No, I won’t change anything.” Yeah. No, do you
know what it is and just let me elaborate. Yeah. And what I mean by that is like I am I’m really
uh motivated to create change and opportunity in my community as a way of making amends for the
damage that I’ve done throughout my life. And I don’t want to say that I wouldn’t change anything
like a blasa attitude to I don’t care about the crimes that I’ve committed or the damage that I’ve
done because I really really do. Yeah. Yeah. Look, cuz I understand that perfectly what you’re
saying. And again, I I’ll always say, you know, people know about my lived experience, but again,
you struggle to change things cuz I always think I always take things to my children. So the paths
won’t always lead to my children. So, can I regret them? You know, do I regret doing them? Yes, I
do regret. Can I change them? No, because each one leads me to a certain path. So, I got one more
question for you cuz then, as you know, you’ve got a question for me or you can ask me a question.
So, my question is is my last question. No, I’ve got two. First one is which is, is your dad
still your hero? 100%. Okay. And my final one is what advice would you give to your
younger self? So that’s not changing anything. It’s just what advice would
you give your younger self? Now we’ll go te we’ll say teenage self. So that’s
quite a it’s quite a window in it. It’s a it’s quite So what advice would I
give myself? Your younger self. Yeah. What? For anybody watching, this is rare that
Chris does not have anything to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I just want to make sure that I
don’t get this one wrong for my younger self because I’m trying not to I’m trying not to to try
change destiny. So, no, because remember it’s not about changing anything. It’s only about advice.
Yeah. What advice would I would would I give? Learn to love. Yeah. That’s what advice I’d
give. Learn to love. Yeah. And in doing so, learn to be loved. Yeah. Because I never This
is This is one of the You think you have to learn to be loved first before you can give love
though, Chris? I know I’m giving. No, no, no. So, I think that I think that that I think that it’s
linked and I don’t think that it’s possible to have one without the other. Do you know what I
mean? So it’s like it’s a process and being able to be receptive to it because they are quite
intertwined because how do you know what love is if you don’t feel love and therefore if you’ve
never felt love how can you give love? I tell you one thing. Yeah. Just the word itself. Yeah.
Someone telling me that they loved me before. Yeah. It were either a girl I would try to get
one over and thought. Yeah. Winner winner. I’m buzzing here. But if somebody genuinely Yeah.
said you know I love you. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Made me feel so uncomfortable. Made
me feel so uncomfortable. Yeah. Um and then Well, there’s different types of love as well, isn’t
it? Well, I think you know what it is. Yeah. I think like I say, I learn about addiction. Yeah.
And I think some of that I constantly learn about as well now is love and how to love. Um how to
love and how to be loved. Yeah. Um, I think that that’s a constant development and understanding
and it’s so it’s so encompassing. It’s so broad, you know. It’s like you have to be willing to
accept it as well, don’t you? Yeah. And and like I say, you can’t if you’re going to give it Yeah.
you can’t you can’t give without receiving. Yeah. It’s so And it’s so important and it’s like, do
you know what’s needed in society today is love. It’s unity. It’s community. It’s understanding.
It’s acceptance. It’s it’s being able to support. And it’s just just where I live. It’s it’s just
it’s mental. This is the thing. Yeah. And this is why I’m saying it’s so important to learn
to love. Yeah. You know what I’m saying? And we’ll come back to that. Yeah. It’s so important
to learn to love and to be loved and to accept people. Do you know what I’m saying? It’s so and
the unity and how we come together because there is a need an agenda 100% there’s an agenda and
that’s why things are publicized how they are and there’s this divide within communities whereas
for me unity and community beats addiction beats the problems that we face and that’s my that’s my
main objective so go on then your next question one more you’ve got one more it’s your turn my
friend right so what question can I ask you are you going to subscribe to a are a life-changing
soap, Carl. Is that it? Yeah, man. I don’t know. I don’t know. So, what question? Right. So, I’m
going to ask you a question. Can I ask you two questions? If you combine them together. Well,
okay then. So, where would you like to be? Yeah. In five years time. Yeah. commercially and personally where so look at it like okay so you mean on the
verge and then so yeah yeah so so Carl so as an individual Carl where would you like to be in
five years time yeah and what are you working towards with the verge yeah in achieving
yeah commercially so as an enterprise yeah as a community interest company. Where do you
want to be? Yeah. In 5 years time, what’s the vision? Where do you want to be personally? So,
I’ll start with on the verge. I think for me, on the verge is I want on the verge to be able
to stand alone. I don’t want it to be associated with an individual or individuals. I want it to be
where they go, oh that’s so and so who works for on the verge instead of it being obviously within
the work that we’re doing kind of well known as individuals but obviously on the verge is is is
well getting well known as well and I think for us it’s always everybody looks at this you’ll note
yourself everybody looks at this instant success it’s like you want it now we’ll invest this amount
of money into you but we want to see these results and I think for us and I’ve always said it is you
can give advice to a young a young person at 12, 13 years old and they start getting in trouble
and they might end up in prison and whatever happens with the journey and they get to 25 26
and all of a sudden they go, “What was that guy called from on the verge?” Yeah. He gave me this
advice blah blah blah. He was right. You know, your success has come. They won’t remember my
name, but they’ll remember. they’ll remember on the verge. So, as long as they keep that
knowledge that on the verge is teaching them on trying to give them, then yeah, that’s that’s
that’s why I see on the verge long term. Um, I don’t think it’s about being the best or being
the biggest or it’s not that. I just want it to be where people go and you think of of the good
stuff that on the verge does personally. That’s a that’s a very good question. I think I’m a I’m
a complex person. I never stop. Anybody that knows me will tell you I have 10 15 things going on in
my mind with like obviously with ADHD and so I’m constantly I’m constantly going. I don’t really
take time personally, but I would love to be I don’t know. I just I don’t think I’ll ever
stop working. So that the dream of chilling, sitting on a beach and all that, I have no
interest of that. Don’t do you know what? I just want to be happy. That’s it. Yes, Cal.
you know, I just just I just want to be happy. I think I’ve gone I’ve had a a long time of
just being um I won’t say sad, but emotionally um emotionally sad. So, I think for me, more
like I just want to be just happy. That’s it for me. Just happy. Just happy. So, Chris,
listen. I want to thank you for coming on and bringing me this. I’m taking I am going
to subscribe by the way. Um, so yeah, listen, honestly, thank you for coming on. I
appreciate it. Cheers, bro. Honestly,