PBP Stories: George Swain 1 PBP + 1 DNF

PBP Story #52: This week we have George Swain who lives in the Hudson Valley. He started randonneuring in 2007 and completed London Edinburgh London in 2009. Unfortunately while training for PBP 2011 he was involved in a very serious biking accident. He recovered to complete his first PBP in 2015. His 2019 attempt ended in a DNF.

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See George’s blog “The Hudson Valley Randonneur” here:
https://thehudsonvalleyrandonneur.blogspot.com/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAadvRftV90oXSBD34akA16vAVKzizCmh3lRt98Un1i1B4Lm6hSFBNRVIrlfXgw_aem_wPwqkTka2d9yNXWp_a_cRA

Paris Brest Paris: PBP Stories and Tips
Join Peter Curley (PBP ’19, ’23) as he interviews the riders who have completed (and DNF’ed!) Paris Brest Paris, the most famous (and oldest) endurance ride in the world. Learn firsthand what to expect and how to give yourself the best chance of a successful PBP.

Paris Brest is a long-distance cycling event with a rich history. Established in 1891 as a professional race, it has evolved into the premier amateur endurance cycling event. Every four years, thousands of cyclists from around the world attempt to finish PBP’s grueling 1,200-kilometer (745-mile) route, within the 90 hour time limit.

10 PBP Stats (2023)
Participants = 6431
Finish rate = 76%
Average age = 51
Oldest female & male = 69 & 79
Youngest female & male = 17 & 17
Female participation = 7.24%
French participation = 29.03%
Charly Miller (56:40) = 12
Adrian Hands (88:55) = 62
Club with most riders = San Francisco Randonneurs

This week we have George Swain who lives in the Hudson Valley in New York State. He started randering in 2007 and completed London, Edinburgh, London in 2009. Unfortunately, while training for PBP 2011, he was involved in a very serious biking accident. He recovered to complete his first PBP in 2015 and he returned again in 2019, but this time DNFed uh PBP. George, it’s a pleasure a pleasure to meet you. Oh, it’s a great pleasure to meet you, Peter. Yes. Weirdly, George, I think we’ve follow I’ve followed you on Instagram. I didn’t mention this before, but I think I’ve I’ve followed you for quite a while. So, now to actually meet you in person, I feel the same way. It’s great. Yes. So, I was just admiring, as I was saying, your beautiful photographs of uh Scotland. Beautiful. Your recent trip. We, my wife and I, took a a wonderful trip to Scotland and we walked the West Highland Way, which was an for us it was an 8-day uh linear path through the wilds of the the Scottish Highlands and it was a bit like a bury with no bikes and a lot more sleep. Yeah, I like it. A lot safer as well. That’s right. Okay, great. Okay, well, let’s start with my usual first question, George. Um, what does PBP mean to you? Oh, you know, PBP is the brass ring for Randonuri, I think. You know, I mean, it it really there is nothing like it. I um I have not ridden all of the international braves of a similar distance, so I can’t uh you know, through experience compare it to every other opportunity, but there’s something absolutely special and unique connected to the history of of PBP and u you know, the history of cycling, you know. What was that finish line? What did that feel like? Your first PBP in 2015. I remember cresting a hill as I was coming into the finish. Um, and just weeping, you know, I just, it was such a journey for me personally to uh to have made it back to the kind of shape I could be in to finish that and then to actually finish that event, it was really very emotional. Yeah. Yeah. Did you expect that it would be emotional? Are you normally emotional? Uh, I am. Well, if you ask my kids uh what it’s like to watch a movie with me, they would say I’m highly emotional and prone to crying. But um you know, so so there is a temperamental side of me. So I was not shocked by that. But it was so authentic and it it came from within. It was not uh you know, it was not something I thought, “Oh, now I should cry.” It was just like, “Wo, I was just overcome with emotions.” Yeah. Yeah. And like just looking at your excellent ride report, you’ve got multiple of them, by the way. They’re really well written. Thank you. Um I think for you and I’m just guessing here. Um you did London, Edinburgh, London in 2009. Yeah. Then you were going to do the brass ring as you describe it, but you were involved in that terrible accident. So it must have felt like an incredible completion. I suppose the end of that journey maybe. It sure did. Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. That’s crazy. Cool. All right, let’s go back uh to the start. Uh tell me about your background in cycling. why you like to ride first memory and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Well, you know, I grew up in a suburban region of New Jersey and there was no public transportation. And so, as a kid, the only way you got around, you know, locally was was on a little bicycle uh where you walked uh or you asked your parents to drive you someplace. And then as I got older and my friends were further a field and I wanted greater independence, I I I had my got my first 10 speed uh you know and I that bike was absolutely liberating for me you know and so I was able to be so independent and free and and able to you know just design my own uh schedule and and uh meet up with people. So it’s always I think cycling has has been an athletic pursuit for me and there’s a there’s a quality of it that that involves you know the physical uh you know challenge but uh from an very early time I think it had to do with freedom and independence. Yeah. Um I think a lot of people particularly overseas people think New Jersey they think the bad bing right and it’s not like that at all. It’s a very rural place. It is a rural place. That’s right. It’s very it’s very green. Where exactly did you did you grow up? Uh we grew up in it. I grew up in central New Jersey. Um you know, so uh it’s actually a place I ride quite a bit. The New Jersey Randonurs has some wonderful rides, uh out into the western part of the state that are very rural and hilly and and it brings me back into places I used to ride when I was a kid, which is really wonderful. So uh yes, it it’s funny when you said you got your first 10 speed. I remember having a single speed and just being fascinated by bikes with gears. I remember the first one I got with gears. It just felt like a uh I know some kind of a rocket thrust. You’d pull that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Um tell me about PBP. How did you originally hear about PBP? So I I found Randon in 2007 on kind of a lark. I’d reached this plateau. I felt like I’d reached a plateau. I was sort of doing, you know, about three or four century rides a year and I these sort of big charity rides and the sort of that that was what I had sort of come to find as a way to sort of build a season around these sort of mass starred large large group events. and and and I was sort of feeling a little tapped out like that was kind of boring and and and so I was just poking around on the internet um and found some breadcrumbs to these people that were doing these extraordinary distances and I I thought it just had to be like typos and like there’s no way that people can ride their bike for this many miles humanly impossible. I I got I got really in curious and engaged in that and so I began in 2007 connected with a local well New York uh New Jersey group and and did my first 200K and that um I was hooked and and you know built a season uh that season around a I got my first SR uh that year. I I thought, well, I could do a 300. If I could do a 200, let me try, you know. And so, I built my way through a season. That was also 2007, which was a PBP year. So, people were talking a lot about training for PBP. And what is this PBP you keep talking about? And there were some some people who had done it before and they would tell these stories. I thought, “Oh my god, that is something I’ve got to do at some point in my life.” But I knew that I could not do it that first year and remain married. So I had to uh I had to default to punt to the next time. Yeah. It sounds like you had thought about it though. Should I remain married or not? It definitely it crossed my mind and and I thank God I I made the right choice. That’s good. Okay. Good. Um so then when did you kind of do you remember when you decided to attempt it? So you missed 2007. So then obviously leading then Leel was 2010, was it? It was 2009. So, so I knew that I wanted to do uh an event of this distance and leel was coming up and I thought, “Oh, that’s really interesting.” So, let me give that a shot. Um, I love traveling. I love the marriage was on a better footing at the time. It was It was better. I had I had I had some time to lead up to that. I had some I I could I did I could break it to her slowly. And um yeah, so I just jumped in. Leel was the longest event I’d ever done. I’d never done anything longer than a 600. So, I just said, “Well, how hard could it be? let me just go figure it out. And uh and it was unbelievable. It was just such an amazing experience. So I I just loved it. And and at that point I knew I had to do PPP um which was coming up two years later. Did you have any thoughts about doing leel before PBP or it just the timing worked out that way? Yeah, the timing worked out that way. It wasn’t that one was more important than the other or less important than the other. It was just wow here’s an opportunity. Um, it’s funny to date I have never ridden a domestic 1200k. I I I’ve ridden PBP twice. I’ve written LEAL twice. And I’ve never done a local 1200K. I’ve done um 1000Ks. I’ve done, you know, but it’s funny how this sounds anti It sounds anti-American. I know, right? Move on. Um, so then you’re training. You have an amazing experience at LEA, which in many ways I understand is probably even harder than PBP in some respects. Yeah. I mean the pressures, the time pressures, the the pressures around um you know the the volume of people in controls is is a different scale. So I think that’s more challenging in some ways on PvP. Uh but the physical terrain is definitely more challenging in LEO than than on PVP. Okay. And I I think I remember somewhere that you had in the back of your mind a Charlie Miller attempt for 200. Is that correct? I did at that point. I was a much faster cyclist at that time. I was also doing a bunch of ultra racing at 24-hour races, 12-hour races. So, I was really I was as fast as I’ve ever been. I was in peak shape uh in in at that point in my life. And um I I thought it was attainable, you know. Yeah. And then obviously I have to ask you about the accident even though I don’t want to that must have been almost like life-changing. It was event. Yeah. Uh for sure it was. I mean I was on a thousand. I was actually prepping for PBP. was the year right before PBP 2010 and I was on a 1,00k event um in preparation uh both to train and also to get a a better start time uh registration time and um just an hour or two into the ride um I got hit from behind by a car. Didn’t see it coming. Didn’t hear it coming. Didn’t don’t have any memory of the actual event. I my my first memory is is in a um is in an ambulance on the way to the hospital. So, uh, you know, people that stopped that I was on the ride with afterwards said I was conscious and and talking to the, you know, the emergency medical people. Um, but I I don’t have any memory of it, which is probably a good thing. So, I, you know, in terms of trauma, I think there’s a bunch of trauma that’s related to that, but not the kind like uh that that derives straight from memory. You know, it’s not like I I have that memory. And I think you broke was it 27? I broke I broke 27 bones. Yeah. I had I could I could bear weight on one limb, you know. My one arm, my clavicle and arm were broken, my two legs were broken, my hip was broken. So, it was Oh my god, I was a mess. Yeah. And it took you like how long did it take you to recover to actually start riding maybe, you know, 100k or like doing any kind of distance? I was I mean I was in the hospital for 6 weeks, then I was released and came home and then um you know, I was able to ride a stationary bike earlier than I could ride on the road. But I don’t think it was until April, it was August that it happened. So, April I was able to even go on the road at all with a bike. And um and then it wasn’t it was in, you know, the following summer, I think June or July, I did my first No, it was actually August. It was because there were people that had ridden PBP 2011 who were on this ride and I was riding with them. It was my first 200k. It was their sort of cool down 200k. Um, so that was my first event uh after that accident. But well, George, I’m glad you made a complete recovery. Okay. Yeah, me too. Let’s talk about your wife because again, my wife probably would never have allowed me to go back on a bike again. So, she is a saint. She is. Yeah, she that is a very appropriate term to refer to her. So, how does she handle, you know, just thinking about you there out in the road still? Uh, you know, I think, you know, it’s funny. She does. It’s like she doesn’t want to know some of the details, you know. It’s like she just like, you know, I want to know where you’re going. You share a map in case I need to know where to find you. Uh, you know, so she like to know the details, emergency contact details, but she’s not interested in me texting her in the middle of a ride saying, you know, almost done, you know, here’s a great photo of what’s going on. I think she likes to sort of keep that separate. She’s she’s been very supportive and and you know I’ve made some significant uh changes to you know the way I ride, the kinds of roads I ride on, the filter I use to decide whether something’s you know meets my criteria for a safe ride. U so I’ I’ve made some I ride on much less busy roads than than I used to. Although you know you can’t protect yourself completely from horrible uh tragedy and incidents but um I do what I can and she appreciates that. Cool. So then uh happier topic. So 2015 how did you kind of formulate a strategy? Um well I suppose did after you started recovering did you in the back of your mind say well I’m definitely going to do PPP. I have to do this for myself or is that something that just emerged? I when I was still on pain medication in the hospital I was convinced I was going to be able to get this done at 2011. You know I was like okay how that’s that’s almost a year I could probably do that. And then it became clear that there was no way that was going to happen. Uh but then immediately at that time, PvP 2015 was was on my radar. It was my mantra. Yeah. In fact, I got a vanity license plate. Um it it occurred to me that in in the state of New York, the standard license plate is three letters followed by four numbers. And I said, you know, I could get a plate that says PBP 2015 and nobody would know it’s a vanity plate. It’s sort of like my secret um you know Batman plate that only randoners can interpret. But uh I have that plate to this day. Well, you had to finish it if you had Exactly. Every time I looked at my car, I said I got to get out and train. Got to make that happen. That’s great. Um cool. So then what was the kind of strategy? You weren’t going to do Charlie Miller. You were still kind of you just wanted to complete it. Isn’t that right? Yeah. I just at that point, you know, I was no longer as fast as I mean, I I tried to get, you know, I tried to get back into shape and and did get into really pretty good shape, but but um that sort of speed edge that I had, you know, I was a few years older and and just never really um never really got back to that kind of speed. So, that was no longer a goal. It became finishing PBP, you know, and finishing with uh with enough gas in the tank that I I was still conscious and and aware of what was happening and you know that I enjoyed it that I I really was able to fully enjoy and take in because I knew having done an international ride that this was going to be a huge cultural experience as well as a physical accomplishment. So, it was really about the experience as much as it was about the accomplishment for me. And I think that’s something that has sort of occurred to me as I’ve gotten older. You know, when I was first read and it was all about the accomplishment, even just personally or because I wanted to share that with other people and then when I realized other people don’t really care, you know, and I’d already done a bunch of stuff, I realized, well, it’s actually not about the accomplishment. It’s about the experience, you know, it’s about I really want to have that experience. And that’s what PBP became for me. Oh, that’s interesting. Uh brief aside, I think was it your independent fabrication bike that got destroyed? It was my first independent fabrication bike. I do love those bikes. It was fantastic. I got another one built up. So, interesting story. I got a um uh I I I the insurance covered a new Indie Fat bike, so I got another one built up. And then I realized I’ve got all these other bike parts that um that are usable, but not the frame. The frame had been destroyed. And uh I had um they had they had the fitter had built up an Indie Fab for me which was slightly off and it was his fault. Uh and so he sent the frame back. He didn’t get the measurements quite right. And so I thought he sent the frame back to the builder but he had just kept the frame. And so when I approached him I said I got all these spare parts. He said I still have that that frame. It’s just the the the width of the uh the seat stays not wide enough for the fenders I wanted. So, I I rebuilt that first original frame up with all the spare parts, the gearing and all that stuff, the brakes from my bike that were salvageable. So, now I’ve got two Indie Fabs. Wow, that’s cool. I I have a kind of a a theory about independent fabrication. Like, I think that any successful bike brand has four, five, six letters. Mhm. And despite having like 30 letters, I don’t know how many they have, they’re still successful. So, they must be a really good bike. They are beautiful, by the way. Yeah, they’re beautiful. I love it. That’s cool. Uh, tell me about then the logistics in getting to Paris. Obviously, you’d gone to London before, so maybe it wasn’t as big a deal or was it still challenging? No. Well, it was challenging and I I think, you know, my experience, you know, I’ve I’ve um I’ve got two kids. They’re grown now. But at the time I was doing all this writing, they were young teenagers, pre-teens, then teenagers, you know, and so getting to an event like PBP and the logistics involved with planning it, training for it, saving money for it, you know, it feels like by time you get to the starting line and you’re actually on your bike, it’s like that’s the easiest part. Now all you got to do is just ride your bike. That’s easy. So, so there are so many logistics that you just have to so many details and um yeah, it could be a little daunting and thank god there are so many people that have done it. There’s a great community of people that are sharing, you know, ideas and and uh resources and uh you know, so I um uh it was it was not as big an uphill battle as it would have been if I had never traveled internationally with a bike, but it but it’s still there were some challenges involved. And at that time uh there was a a guy named Claude who was uh doing a um he was sort of a travel agent that was that was sort of arranging stuff for American riders that made that a lot of that easier for people that chose that path. That’s cool. Um so well let’s describe the uh starting line. I assume you were emotional George emotional man. I was pretty I was pretty emotional. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Uh but as you describe, it’s a kind of relief cuz you just know now all you need to do is pedal. Yeah. Um so maybe tell me about the ride itself. So I chose to ride in the 84 hour start, you know, when I had an option of either doing 90 hours. I knew 80 hours was out, but but when I had the option to do either 90 hours or 84. I chose 84 because really because it had the early morning start. There were no early morning 90 hour slots. That’s an evening start. And I knew that the thing that was going to be my um downfall uh if I had any was going to be sleep. You know that I was really concerned about what it was going to mean to me to start with a sleep deficit. You know, to start at night and to go through a whole night at first. So, I knew that I was going to have a greater uh likelihood of success um starting at 4:00 a.m. or whatever the time was, 4:35. Um the way I did on, you know, all the uh 600s I’ve done before. And I did, you know, that that was going to work out well for me. So, it was black when I started. You know, it was pitch black and and uh 84 hours a smaller start than the 90 hour. There’s a little less sort of carnival atmosphere. The whole 90 hour groups left already. the 80hour groups left already in 2011. Um the start was right by the um the Veladrome uh you know in Satan and that was I mean that was an amazing place uh and and a really fun uh place to start and finish the ride. So I think there was there was sort of some energy in the air around that and um it was just beautiful. I just remember starting and going off into the into the darkness and seeing all the red lights ahead of me and the red, you know, the the white lights behind me and and just feeling like, wow, I’m part of something really big. And, you know, randoning events are not usually mass start mass big events. You know, if you’re in an event that’s got 35 people or 50 people, that can be a lot, you know, and so the fact that you’re you’re you clip it in with uh hundreds of people is just a really different experience. And it’s a it’s a really exciting one. Yeah. And were you riding by yourself or were you Yeah, I was I I did I I So that that one I planned to just go by myself. Uh I knew other people that were riding, but I didn’t align my start time with other people. There were some people I knew that were sort of 15 minutes behind me and a couple people. So I knew I would run into people in the 84 hour pack, but but not that I was starting with. Yeah. And um I know I had another question actually. I’ve got lots of questions. It’s an interview. Um so what was your plan in terms of of sleep? What were you hoping to do there? So ride as far as I got it. Yeah. I really just wanted to ride as far as I could. I thought, you know, if I get as far as Lodiak um on the way out, that would be great. You know, almost 300k or I guess maybe it’s a little over 300k at that point. And I thought that would be a really great or maybe it’s four. Yeah, I forget the numbers now at this point, but it seemed like a a manageable chunk and that the volume was not going to be so great at Lodiac, which can be a bottleneck for, you know, the sleep stop because it’s so well placed. Everybody wants to sleep there. Um, but with the 84 hour start, one of the great things about that, uh, that band of of riders is the volume for the most part is reduced, you know, so some of that pinch you you feel in the 90 hour isn’t there. So I did in fact make it out to to Lodiac and and slept there and and um and that was great. I mean I just think like sleeping in that felt like an airplane hanger, you know, with uh with just you know farting and you know you know burping people and you know all kinds of energy and it was it was a great restful night uh that a few hours that I slept there. And what was your overall kind of energy? Was it um I’m definitely going to finish this or was there not a feeling of dread but you felt something could go wrong like what? No, I did I I was fairly confident. I mean I I was fairly confident that I knew that I could ride the distance. I had had experience riding the distance before. Yeah. Um so I wasn’t so worried about was my body going to give out. Um you know I wasn’t as fast as I was when I was a bit younger. So, and that has an impact on time and thinking about, okay, well, what’s time going to be like, and I was in the 84-hour start, so I’d already started with a 6-hour deficit or handicap. And um and that’s what ended up sort of providing a bit of stress. And I was all surprised by that. you know, I would get to controls and it wasn’t that they were closing, but I was like doing the math in my head, which is not really my strong suit to begin with, and then I’m sleepd deprived and then I’m trying to like have to sort of subtract and and figure out, look, how much time do I have left? And it started to become clear to me that I was like in a my sleep bank was not so my my my bank of time was not so great. And I I like had to like get on my bike too soon and get back out there and like didn’t have adequate, you know, rest. And I was like, well, I got to just go because, you know, I got to be at that next control and I’ve only got 3 hours to get there, so I better go, you know. So that that that was the sort of thing that that became a theme for me throughout that event. And I did meet up with a with a friend who um who I’d written with here in in uh on the East Coast and we done a bunch of rides together and and uh he and I teamed up and and rode a big chunk of the middle section together and um and that was great to have a buddy to ride with um and to stop with. But yeah, we were burning candles and matches and and uh you know, sort of I’d get it get to a control and I’d stop and I’ I’d have some food and I’d say, “Well, I guess I only have about a half hour to nap and then I got to get back on the bike.” So that was not what I was expecting. Yeah. I think the 84hour start thing fascinates me. Yeah. You know, it’s simple math. I know if it’s your first if it’s your first time, I would imagine and I I know many people disagree with me, but lpping off six hours can’t seem logical, right? Okay. It doesn’t It doesn’t seem Yeah. Um that’s cool. Yeah. Um so tell me, were there any dark moments at all in your first one? Definitely. Um, literally there were dark moments and the dark moments were in the dark. Um, it wasn’t uh, you know, I wasn’t afraid. I don’t really have any fear feelings of fear or anything like I was having, you know, like recurring uh, thoughts about my action or anything like that, but I was hallucinating a bit, you know, and so I was like running out of steam and and uh, you know, middle of the night, too. And it wasn’t like I was seeing things, but it was this strange feeling of sort of not really knowing what was on the other side of the darkness. It sort of I had these sort of sensations that I’m like climbing a big hill and that there’s this vast sort of view off to my left and then I realized no, these are just corn fields and I’ve just been riding on a flat area here. So, it was like that perspective was off and it was just sort of bizarre. Um, and those were some dark times. I recently did a 600k that I DNFED, but I remember riding at at the middle of the night and I was pretty sure that my shadow was a different entity. Belong to me. It was very It was very true. Yeah, it is. Even though it wasn’t a full hallucination, but your brain starts working in different ways. It’s crazy. Yeah. Um I enjoyed you had a mantra as well. I’ll read it for you. Relentless forward motion, right? That’s what you’d say to yourself, which is like, that’s great. That’s cool. Yeah. So then as you got closer to the end, I would imagine like uh and I’m going to read another quote from your excellent um report. Okay. So, let me just say in a weird way, I feel like completing PBP has actually set me free. I I’m no longer that guy with a single-minded goal on the horizon. So, I’m sure that was kind of in your mind as you’re getting towards the end because it does feel amazing when you’re almost 100% sure, I’m going to finish this thing. Yeah. So, so did you think you’d ever come back and do it again at that point? I, you know, I did. I don’t I don’t remember feeling like, oh, I’m I’m done with it. I’ve accomplished this. I’ve checked it off. I am released. I did feel released because it had been such a single focus. So I do remember that feeling of okay now I can just think about some other stuff but but it wasn’t that I didn’t want to come back. I thought this is wonderful. I mean so much of PBP is is unique and I love Randonuring and and it really is a very um unique and and um amazing cultural experience. So I I had a sense I wanted to come back and in fact I thought well I I you miss out a little bit on some of the carnival as I mentioned on the 84hour start. So, I knew that when I came back, I wanted to do to do the 90 hour start. I wanted to be able to be a part of that sort of moving party, you know, and uh so I I knew that um pretty soon after I finished I was going to I did tell my wife that, of course, but I did have in my mind that I would want to come back for the Lady Art Store. That’s nice. Um so, between 201 uh 15 and 2019, did you do any long rides? Were you still as big? I did. Yeah. Yeah. I was still very into rendering. I still had um you know I was doing SR series a few times. Um I did in preparation for 2019 I did a 1000k. It was a similar registration um you know situation where if you did that the year before you got an earlier registration time. So I did a a wonderful thousandk ride out in uh Wisconsin with a couple friends who then became uh a pair of of riders that I planned to ride in PBP 2019 with. So that was uh we formed a posi that we wanted to sort of stick together. So I had a very different approach to 2019. That’s great. Um so you decided well actually you also had a a hip condition saying that. Yeah. Yeah. So in the middle of all that right so so when I had my um so I fractured the femoral neck which is the the part of the femur that holds the ball connects to the femur and that little neck in there. And when I had damaged that, they repaired it right away during the accident. Um, but the doctor said to me, he said, you know, like this could lead to, um, uh, this could lead to a condition called necrosis. It could cause due to a lack of blood traffic between, uh, those different parts of the fever. Um, you might just lose the the ball essentially was what happens. So I said, “Well, how am I going to know?” He said, “Oh, yeah, you’re going to know.” And sure enough, uh, I started to have hip pain over the year. uh a year or two later uh several years later at this point because now it’s really it wasn’t until 2018 that I had to hit my hip replacement. So it was probably like 16 17 I started to have hip pain and then realized well I really got to deal with this. So in 2018 November of 2018 I had a total hip replacement foolishly thinking oh I could get ready for PBP in August of 2019. Um so I didn’t really have the timing on that right. So, I wasn’t able to ride on my bike again until April again. Uh, and I so I didn’t do any riding on my bike until April of 2019. And I then trying to get the volume of of riding in in order to be ready and prepared for PBP. I I just really wasn’t physically conditioned well enough. And so, it came out in in sleep deprivation. And uh that’s eventually what what caused my DNF was um was just feeling like I’m not safe on a bike. I I’m running out. There’s no way I can, you know, I was doing the math in my head, which was probably a mistake. I probably did the math wrong. Um and I suffered from what I would recommend nobody ever does, which is to make a decision about quitting a ride before you’ve slept. Yeah. I I made a decision and I said, “No, I’m going to sleep now and I’m not going to start when I get up in the morning.” And that was a mistake. I think if I had waited until the morning, I would have had a different perspective on it. But so this one 2019, you decided to do the full 90 hours. You wanted the whole bulge experience. You mentioned the whole inch in every everything was going well, but obviously as you just said, you probably didn’t have enough training in your legs, sleep depth. Yeah. Yeah. So, how how long did it take before it became ownorous and then you decided to DNF? So, it was, you know, and I wasn’t in bad physical shape. I mean, I I mean I my experience of it was not that I was in pain or I was suffering or like I I like I can’t make that next hill. It was just literally like I just really didn’t feel like I had enough time to do it. In fact, the first time I got to Lodiac, I ran into somebody I knew. They’re like, “Man, you look fresh. Oh my god, everything going okay?” You know? Yeah, it’s fine. Yeah. So, um it was on the way back um it was on a night a night section um coming into Lodiac uh you know before Lodiac. Um and we the big difference with this was we ran with a we rode rather with a support vehicle. So the two of us the three of us together had an RV driven by the brother of of one of the riders um who was going to you know meet us in each way. We thought this was going to be the way that we sort of beat the bulge issue, the bad parts of the bulge issue. Um, you know, having a comfortable place to sleep is sometimes a double-edged sword, right? Cuz then you say, well, you know, I don’t I don’t I do have a way back, you know, and and so um so it was coming into Lodiac that I realized so it was really, you know, it was 750 miles or something by the time uh or or 750k or what? Again, my math is bad. It was Lodiac on the way back. Two-thirds of the way. It was two-thirds of the way. Yes. And before I ask you about the cultural event that is PBP, the people by the road, etc., how did you feel and how did you deal with that DNF? Was it an issue for you at all? You know, it’s funny. I I had been riding for 11 years at that, 12 years at that point. I had never DNFed a ride in my entire life. That was the very first DNF I ever had. I would I would sooner DNS a ride than DNF a Ryan. I thought, you know, if I’ve started something, by God, I’m going to finish that thing. And so there were times where I’d say, you know what, I’m not feeling it. Maybe I won’t start this one. That would have been the way I approached it. But if I started, by God, I was going to finish. And so it was the very first time I ever did it. And you know what? The world didn’t end. Yeah. The world didn’t end. Yeah. It’s funny. As you get older, you start realizing that. Isn’t that right? It’s just a bike ride. No, it is. Yes. So George, it sounds like you are really into the cultural aspects of PBP. Maybe tell me a little bit more about that, the support, etc. You know, I think anybody that’s spent a lot of time riding in the US, um, in any part of the US, some regions are sort of more prone to this than others. You know, you feel like an enemy in your own land. You know, you feel like, uh, you’re you’re you’re being treated with great hostility or at best maybe ambivalence. Um, but you don’t feel like you’re surrounded usually by a lot of kindness. And um, what was just an overwhelming experience from the very beginning of of PBP was how important this ride is to the people of Britney. This is important to them. Being a part of this as a spectator is important to them. That they want to be there on the side of the road handing things out to you. You and you you and they are a part of a of a sort of symbiotic cultural experience. And the way we were treated by the by the drivers, by the by the um you know, by of course the staff and the volunteers were great. They’re always great in an event, but but it was like the pedestrians, you know. So culturally it became clear to me that this event which goes all the way back to the dawn of cycling you know I mean it’s really it was a race back at you know predates the uh the tour to France. I mean it was like this was one of the earliest bicycle races in the world and the people of Britany really care about cycling you know and uh so it was it felt like really being a celebrity. In fact, on that point, one of the ways I really saw that in action was I felt that very much when I was doing it the first time and then and then the second time. But when I took my kit off because I was still traveling with my friend’s brother in the RV and still providing support now to my two friends who were riding and I go to the controls, but I was wearing my civilian clothes. It was like people just looked through you. You know, they don’t, you know, if you show up at a control and you’re just wearing normal clothes, people are like, “Yeah, yeah, get out of my way. Where are the riders? When you come in wearing a cycling kit, it’s like people are like, “What do you need? What? Can I take your bottles?” It’s like you’re a celebrity. And and I think it’s one of the few places that an amateur cyclist can feel that kind of enthusiasm. Yeah. You know, I think a lot about it because we’re all human at the end of the day. Same operating system. Yeah, on that 600k I DNFED, we’re climbing up this trail 3:00 a.m. and next thing out of nowhere, some pickup truck, we hadn’t seen a car in hours, comes flying by and just kind of a coal roll that kind of thing. My god. And you’re thinking that is so weird, isn’t it? Even it’s weird. Like even the energy required for that person, it’s pitch black. I didn’t know what he looked like. And versus that experience at PBP, same humans. It’s just different cultural. It’s a polar opposite. Yeah, it really is. Yeah. Yeah. It It’s fascinating. Yeah. Cool. So, my next question, George, are you going to do it again? Is my wife listening? No. No. Or share the link. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I I would very much like to do it again. I would very much like to do it again. Absolutely. Um uh I feel like I’ve got a little unfinished business. Uh and I would love to go back. Um and uh and also just to have that experience. I mean it is really unique. I mean um there’s nowhere else to find it. The people I guess and uh so I’ll I’ll go back. Um would you do anything different this time? Because you’ve done it in two different ways or you’ve approached it in two different ways already. Yeah, for sure. I would. Um, and uh, I also DNFed. So, I’ve had two DNFs. The second DNF was the second LEAL attempt. So, I only DNF really big events that are that cost thousands of dollars to get to. Um, nice. And, uh, and again, that was sort of running out of time, but and our approach on that one was to book um to book places uh, hotels and what it was sort of coming out of COVID and not wanting to be in a room with with uh, you know, you know, potentially sick people and whatnot and all that. And so that was part of it. And and um so I think what I determined then at that point was I really think the best way to approach these rides is just to be in the controls. Is just to sleep in the controls. Sleep when you need to sleep, ride when you need to ride. Having a predetermined plan. If that falls out of sync with what your body needs, then you’re sleeping at a time your body doesn’t need to. And it becomes a way to slow you down. And I I other people do it. And but for me, as I think about my next PBP, it’s going to be uh I think doing it in the 90 hour start and just sleeping where I can sleep. Uh and if that means a formal bed in a control, if it means a an ATM, uh you know, uh phone booth, you know, ditch nap, whatever it might might mean, I’ll be ready for it. It’s like Yeah, it’s like you described trying trying to do the math while you’re riding doesn’t work. Not my strength. It’s also like trying to have the perfect experience. There is no perfect experience. Isn’t that right? Cuz I did the hotel thing once. We slept for 2 hours and I just couldn’t sleep. Right. Yeah. So, there’s just no perfect um approach. That’s why it’s so wonderful each time. Exactly. Cool. George, I’m going to ask you then your three unique tips for someone who hopes to finish PBP. Okay. I would I would say tip number one would be to bring a spare tire. Okay. I I did that. I had a flat the very last section from Drew to um to the finish. I was absolutely riding a high. The rain had stopped. I was 30 miles from the finish. I knew this was just going to be was attainable. And I the energy, the enthusiasm was just palpable. And I left the control with uh good fueling and um a group of uh a dozen or so people and and we’re crossing this field and I hear this sound and I was like, “Oh, that poor sucker.” And I realized that poor sucker was me, you know. And so I had to change a tire at that point. I change a tube at that point. And I my hands weren’t working. I could barely remember how to change a flat. And the fact that I had brought a spare tire meant that I could just take that old one off. I didn’t need to look for things. I could just put that in my bag, put the brand new fresh tire on. So I I will always bring a fresh tire on a 1200K. So that would be one piece of advice. Um you know, I think the other thing I I would say would be to really understand that PBP is not just a long ride. It’s not just another 1,200k. It’s it’s um I mean some people ride it to see how fast they can do it. Some people ride it I mean there are all kinds of reasons why people ride it, but I I would suggest really that people lean into the culture and the history and the really unique things that make PBP what it is. You know, you hear people talk about, you know, being a full value rider, the people that take the full amount of time rather than trying to take the least amount of time. Um this is the kind of ride I think you should really take the full amount of time. you know, every minute you’re doing that, if you’re not suffering, you really experience something something unique. So, I I think that would be um another piece of advice. And and then the third thing is something I mentioned before, which is never quit. Never make a decision about quitting before you’ve had a good night’s sleep or even a bad night’s sleep. Okay, that’s cool. Well, George, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Quite a journey and I will see you in 2027. Oh, I look forward to meet your wife as well. fascinates. Oh, you love my wife. I look forward to it. Peter, it’s been an honor talking with you. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Cool. Thank you very much. Okay.