BONUS: Who is @BicycleDutch

Mark Wagenbuur, known as Bicycle Dutch, shares his journey into cycling advocacy and the importance of cycling infrastructure in the Netherlands. They discuss the cultural differences in traffic safety, the helmet debate, and the role of art in public infrastructure. Mark emphasizes the need for safe cycling environments and the psychological aspects of road design. The conversation also touches on the future of cycling in Den Bosch and the attractions for tourists in the city.

https://www.youtube.com/@BicycleDutch

00:00 Introduction to Bicycle Dutch
01:19 The Journey of Bicycle Dutch
03:11 Exploring Cycling Infrastructure
06:41 The Role of Community in Cycling
08:07 The Feats Stat Award and Cycling Cities
10:36 Comparing Cycling in the Netherlands and Abroad
12:33 Helmet Culture and Safety in Cycling
20:40 Highway Safety and Cultural Differences
24:42 The Dutch Approach to Urban Planning
28:54 Art in Public Infrastructure
30:30 Psychology of Road Design
32:20 Continuous Improvement in Urban Cycling
36:40 Experiencing Cycling in the Netherlands

Hello and welcome back to Radio Free Urbanism. This is a special episode. This is not a regular episode of the podcast. It’s a bonus episode and I have here a very special guest with me. Someone who I had the opportunity to meet with in the Netherlands. Please welcome to the show Mark Vagenber or as many people call him, Bicycle Dutch. Thank you for having me. We’re very excited cuz uh we we had a really great opportunity to to ch sorry to chat in the Netherlands in Denbos in your hometown, but there’s still a few things that I wanted to ask you. We got caught out in the rain and Yes. I was so frozen by the end of that ride that I was like, “Okay, I just need to get inside and get dry.” Cuz we were we were riding for at least 2 hours. It was like 40 kilometers or something, right? Yeah. We we overdid it a little bit. A little bit. Just a little bit. If the weather was if the weather not the weather was different, if I was prepared more and I’d put my rain pants on at the beginning, I think that would have made a big difference for me as well. So, I wasn’t prepared. I think we were both wearing jeans. We were It was kind of a drizzle, so it didn’t seem that bad. And then we were dripping. Yeah, absolutely. Didn’t have a dry face on my bone. Yeah. No, same. Yeah. Wet to the bone, as they say. So, uh, let’s just start off with the obvious. For those who don’t know who Bicycle Dutch is, who Mark is, please tell us who that is. Well, my name is Mark Venure. That’s how you pronounce it. And uh for the English speaking people, I chose the name bicycle Dutch because when you do bicycle Dutch all about cycling, you have all the Google words, bicycle Dutch, Netherlands, cycling, everything. So it is not proper English. I know that. But people remind me because of that. So that’s that’s good. And uh I’ve been filming for a while since 2009 because um as you say somebody said something wrong on the internet and this was 2009. You could still have the illusion of correcting people. What I didn’t know back then was that uh some vehicular cyclists I I I found some vehicular cyclists on the internet and they were against cycling infrastructure and they said that the cycling infrastructure in the Netherlands was particularly bad for cycling and and and dangerous. So I thought what what is this? They are crazy. I’ll show them a video and uh they’ll understand. And I in 2009 there weren’t hardly any videos about cycling or cycling infrastructure in the Netherlands on the internet. So I thought, oh well, I’ll make one myself. So I filmed a video, showed that to the people. They were even more convinced that this was a bad idea. So, but um the video got a lot of attention and that was interesting because I did make videos before and nobody ever watched them and this was fun because people watched it and they asked questions so I had reason to make another one and another one and another one and now I’m over thousand over a thousand videos in 16 years. Yeah, it’s it is crazy to see how many videos you’ve produced over the the years. Mostly would you say mostly in the Netherlands? mostly in the Netherlands. Yes. But I also make some uh trips outside. I even was in the United States twice for my blog in those 16 years. I wouldn’t go anymore. But uh well well come on over to Canada. We’re wide open. We got plenty of things to see here. I’ve never been to Canada, so that would be interesting. Yeah. But I’ve also been in Australia because people wanted a talk there by me and I had family there, so I was there anyway. Um, I’ve been to St. Petersburg in Russia for a talk. I wouldn’t do that anymore either, but uh, things changed in the last 16 years in the world, but also at conferences in in Spain, in Budapest, in Finland, in Dublin, in Poland. I’ve been around. No kidding. Yeah, it’s like I said, it’s it’s amazing to see. And it conjures up ideas of like how does somebody have this much time? Like I do this as a hobby. I know you do as well. But how do you keep track of all of these different projects that are going around in the Netherlands? Well, I I I used to follow everything on Twitter, now Blue Sky, LinkedIn. I follow a lot of people uh that know about things and I also get tips. I know a lot of people who work for municipalities and they will tip me two years ahead because they are finished but then the the whole political uh trajectory has to go through. Some sometimes I have filmed the before situation and they say yeah next year it will be changed and then I have to wait three four years before finally something is visible in the street and uh sometimes I have to take the before pictures again because it changed already a little bit but yeah so people tip me and I try to follow everything. It’s really funny because sometimes I know things that other people don’t know yet. For instance, I tweet tweeted at the time about uh bicycle parking that was made in my hometown. And the older man, which is kind of the executive council member for traffic, asked me, “Mark, how did you know that so quickly?” I said, “Well, this was right in front of my own home.” So, sometimes you’re lucky. Um but I also travel from the for instance uh when there was a big bridge opened inan which is about 3 and 1/2 hours from my home. This was during co and during the curfew time. So I was alone in a hotel during curfew so that I could film this bridge the next day. So I’m also prepared to do that. Right. A little bit crazy you need to be but it’s fun. It’s fun nonetheless. So you got like this network freezing that day. My goodness. I was the only guest in the hotel due to COVID and they had turned off the heating. Oh my god. I was in my bed with my jacket on. That’s ridiculous. The things you do for the blog. Yeah. What bridge was that by the way? The bridge in Oh, somewhere in the north of a wooden bridge 700 m long and I forgot the name of the town, but uh somewhere north. This is the only little dot on my map in the north of it. I have a map where I was uh and yeah, the bulkest around UT and Satos where I live because yeah, I’m I’m most often there. It’s local. She also asked where do you get the time? Well, I only work three days a week for my boss and then four days a week for myself, I always say. So that’s about how it works. Yeah. So yeah, lots of time. No kidding. It’s a hobby and hobbies take time, cost money. This one even pays me something due to uh YouTube income. Yeah, it comes back. Income I have because I try to stay away from paid things because I want to be independent. I want to be able to say what I want to say about things. I although some people accuse me that I am very pro- municipalities already. You can never do it right. Yeah, you’re a shill. You’re just a shill for the municipalities now. That’s it. you can never get get away from. I know I know that feeling for sure. Uh as soon as you start getting any attention on YouTube, your email just starts flooding with different requests or offers and it’s just honestly it person will say you do this, the other person will say you do that. It’s the exact opposite. Absolutely. But they both accuse you and they’re both very convinced that it is the truth what they say. But yeah, so that’s just the world. It is. Um, so I’ve had the pleasure of traveling around the Netherlands a few times now. I think I visited four times in my life, but the last two years I’ve had the chance to bike around the country. The first year was last year around Ranstad, and this year I got to go I saw every province. Now, I didn’t go to every province this trip. I didn’t go to South Holland and I didn’t go to Zaland, I think. Um, but I saw a lot of the country. It’s for me also a province that I didn’t cover much because it’s so far away. Yeah, it’s harder to get to, but uh I I have my own favorites uh within the country that I’ve visited so far. And I know that the feats feed award is given out occasionally every few years. Every every other year every other year and since 2000. So they’ve done it 10 time 10 or 12 times now. And some some cities have made it on there twice. So some of the cities named are Hton uh Grown Hton made it twice. Utre and won. I always correct you. Utre never win one really. And nor will they ever because of the way this competition works. Okay. Well, there you go. I stand corrected. Nowadays, people determine uh so they do interviews well online so people can can fill out a questionnaire and one of the questions is how safe do you feel? And because Utrat is so busy, people always complain about that. And so Ut will never win again, nor will Amsterdam ever win. It’s the the final three cities that won were tiny towns and they also renamed it now. No, it’s no longer Fitzstat, which means bicycle city. It’s now Fitz Municipality. The last two winners were North Bayand, which is an island in Zealand, and Monarch, which is an island in one zen sea. go north uh where there’s hardly any traffic and then people feel terrific on the bike. Yeah, it’s easy. But so yeah, the last time I covered this competition was in 2020 when Vayandal won and they they also won for the second time then. So there are a few towns like Hton and Vayandal which are so far ahead compared to the rest of the Netherlands because they were designed as a cycling city. Well, not so much as a cycling city, but as a city for people. Uh, and that works so in their favor. And now with the questionnaires, the bigger cities will never win again. So, I stopped covering this. This is That’s fair. Not really interesting anymore for a foreign uh audience at least. Right. For the Dutch, this might be interesting, but you don’t even know these cities or towns. I mean, they go right over my head. Yeah. Yeah. has as not so it’s not so interesting to compare cities in the Netherlands they are all really good when you look at it from a foreign perspective it’s it’s like a bit like bragging but the cities in the Netherlands in general are really doing a lot better than any city outside the Netherlands I say reluctantly because it sounds a bit bad but yeah that’s the truth it is true like I’ve mentioned this before in in my videos one of my trips I went to Almir and uh that’s what I found was like this is a city that has a relatively bad reputation. I’m sure other ones do like Lisad in the north like north from there. Um yeah but to me better for cycling I would say. Yeah. For me as a somebody from North America I’m like this is this is heaven. Like this is amazing. It’s incredible. So it’s all relative, right? Because it’s such a new city you can also relate to it even better because it really looks like a North American city almost. Yeah. I think that’s why why I like Roderdam so much is because they have these tall buildings that look very modern. Much better. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Because that’s what we hear a lot in the Netherlands. Uh when people visit from a burden the way we design our cities and inner cities and historic inner cities is so different from anything that people are used to that they can’t fathom the having that in their own situation. So yeah, it’s it’s becoming increasingly difficult to relate to what we do in the Netherlands. It’s a bit cloudy. Yeah, I’m aware of that. Yeah, especially now that we take out cycle ways, separate cycleways because the volumes of traffic have have switched. So we can now say let’s give the the main part of the road to cyclists and say that cars are guested. What other city, what other country can do that in this way? That that’s because we Yeah. have so many cyclists. We’re trying over here at least a little bit. Oh yeah. And I I I mean I’ve cycled in in in the US even even in New York City. It was interesting. But you can cycle in other places, but it’s never so relax and relaxed and so connected and so everywhere. So you don’t have to think about cycling in the Netherlands. You can just go on your bike and go wherever you like and it’s always good enough, safe enough. Some places are better, some places do better and and want to do better for cycling, but none of them do bad for cycling. So that’s really interesting. Yeah, it’s it is incredible. Uh, but as far as debates and things go, and I know we talked about this a little bit in the past, but you know, we have to talk about it. And that’s I have a sense where this is going. Yeah. So, a lot of the times when I post videos, uh, no matter where I’m riding, sometimes I’m wearing a helmet, sometimes I’m not. For example, in Netherlands, I never wear a helmet generally. Uh, and I do get comments, especially from people who I know who might have watched some of my videos, and they’ll be like, “You should wear a helmet.” they’ll point you at their finger or they’ll just be like, “Hey, why aren’t you wearing a helmet?” And they’ll try to explain it, but I don’t think it really gets through. So, can you speak to this and why the the helmet culture or lack thereof for the most part exists in the Netherlands? Yeah, we have no clue why everybody is so o preoccupied with helmets. um the organizations and people that matter in my opinion in the Netherlands. So the cyclist union uh the cycling professor Marco Turos, they’re all against mandatory cycling helmets and uh so am I. Uh because we feel it is the wrong answer if you are trying to make cycling safer and I’m assuming that’s what people want to do by wearing a helmet. But if you want to make cycling it, there are better ways and more effective ways like improving um infrastructure and most certainly reducing the speeds of cars because motor traffic is what kills cyclists and if you’re under a car at 50 km/h that plastic sheet on your head won’t make a difference. So that is what we think. Um yeah, and cycling in the Netherlands is so safe because so many people cycle. And if you would make uh helmets mandatory, there’s a risk that fewer people will cycle and that therefore cycling will become more dangerous. So that’s what we think. And then people will say, “Yes, but there are so many traffic injuries and so many traffic deaths in the Netherlands.” True, that is true. But there are also many more skiing accidents in Austria than there are in the Netherlands. And we don’t ski better than the Austrians. It’s because of the numbers. And when you compare countries, you really have to weigh these numbers. And and when you do, the Netherlands is the safest country in the world. Although we don’t wear a helmet and although people at very high ages cycle in the Netherlands and in in high numbers. So, and then people will always say, “Yeah, but the Danes, the Danes are so close to you.” And then we say, “Well, if you look at the figures, the Dutch cycle 3.04 km per day and the Danes 1.6. So, we cycle more than double as much. And um when we look at injury and deaths, it’s especially the over 65 year olds in the Netherlands. And when you see the Danes cycling there, it’s8 km per day over 66. The Dutch aged 65 to 75, I have the numbers here, cycle 3.99 km on average per day, which is more than the national average. So in higher age, people cycle more because they have more time and they like it. So the benefits for these people, the the health benefits and everything around it outweigh the danger by by a multitude of factors. So we don’t get it. Why would you single out the bicycle? 19 people a day, says Professor Marco Tromos, die every day in the Netherlands of a fall while walking, walking down the stairs, tripping over things. 19 per day. Every 3 days, two people cycle die on a bicycle. So that nobody would argue that we should wear a helmet when we walk down the stairs. That’s ridiculous. And for us, it’s as ridiculous to ask for a helmet on a bicycle. Oh my god, that’s that just blows it out of because I that’s I’ve come to that. I’ve never said it to anybody cuz I would it it almost sounds ridiculous to be like it sounds ridiculous to us. You don’t ask people wear helmets when they walk, but when you actually have the stats to back it up, it’s like, okay, here you go. And then to top everything off, don’t blame the victim. We are the victims when we die on a on a bicycle because the cars kill us. So, address the cause and not the result. Mhm. So, yeah, we don’t wear helmets. Yeah. and and like nothing to put that more in context for for those who might not know. So, as an example, when it comes to deaths per 100,000, uh you look at the stats between the Netherlands and the United States, for example, it’s about it’s about five times I think as many people die on the roads in the United States versus the Netherlands. Even Japan, I think it’s something like two maybe two and a half times as many people die on the roads versus the Netherlands. And in Canada, I think it’s something like four times as many. It’s it’s like like if you said to somebody, hey, we have a solution where we can cut our road deaths by 75%. And you’re like like let’s do it. Like people would say, “Yeah, let’s bring it on.” Well, we’re trying to give that answer to people here in North America, but it it gets too too caught up in culture war. Anyway, the point the point being is it is very safe and it isn’t helmets not like the helmets aren’t the things because if you look at population, you don’t even factor in that we cycle so much more. Exactly. Exponentially more. So, it’s it’s you can’t compare when you just look at at at the at the population uh numbers. You need to factor in how many times people cycle, how far they cycle. And if you do that, then we are really the safest country in the world. Yeah. And and like you said earlier about that relaxed feeling, it it totally permeates your whole being when you’re there and you get on the bike and how much more different it feels being there. You feel like you don’t need it. You feel safer because it is safer. And also what I said, why would you single out cycling? Cycling is so normal in the Netherlands. Everybody does it. In other cultures where the cyclists are an out group, then you can say, “See, you need to do something.” But we we all walk downstairs and we all cycle. So we see no difference why you would want to wear a helmet in one and while the other is even far more dangerous. Yeah. It just doesn’t make sense. The whole helmet debate does not make any sense to a duche like me. Totally. Yeah. That’s all I can say about it. I appreciate that. I appreciate that perspective. You don’t catch me in a helmet unless it is in Brisbane where I was a guest of the government. So I had to. But that’s the only time I ever wore a helmet. was the first time I ever touched the helmet as well. That’s incredible actually. Yeah. And I felt totally dorky with it. Yeah. I did not feel safer. Absolutely not. The cars were still coming at me. And even there’s some evidence that cars come closer to you when when you wear a helmet. So, nah. Yeah. You won’t convince me that wearing a helmet will do anything positive for me. Somebody’s going to try, but uh probably be in vain. Yeah, they have they have tried. All right, I’ve got another one here for you. So, recently here in BC, that’s the province where I live, there was a high school in a small town. And over the years, they built up this this highway that was beside this this high school, and it got wider and bigger. And as as it went on, they figured out there’s a problem. The kids are on one side of this highway and all the things they wanted to get to at the lunch break was directly across this highway. Naturally, what people do is they cross this highway. When you think of a highway, it’s not separated. It’s like a country highway, essentially a small town. And there had been many incidents that happened over the years. So, the authorities responded to this. And what they did is the the North American way. They they put up fences to prevent these high school kids from crossing the highway right there. So they’d have to go, you know, a few kilometers out of the way to cross at the quote unquote legal crossing to get to those destinations to help prevent these these these incidents from happening. So I’ve know you’ve talked about this before. What is so that if that’s the North American way, what is the Dutch way? Well, there are a number of things that are very different already between these cultures. We don’t have any jaywalking laws or something that resembles it. So we can cross roads wherever we want. whether there’s a cross road or not. So you’re allowed to cross not a freeway but you’re allowed to cross any other street wherever you would like. So preventing the crossing is already not possible in the Netherlands. Yeah. With a fence but we would not do that. Um no we would make uh if it is absolutely necessary that that road became so big. I mean the school was there first. Why did that road come there anyway? um you need to make a safe crossing for them in this country. This reminds me of a park in Utre, the Wilhelmina Park that used you could not cross it by bicycle when I was young in the 1980s, but everybody did because city center on one side, university on the other. Everyone went through the park and it was dangerous because people walked on those paths. What they did is not a ban. They made a good cycle path through the park so that people could legally do what they were going to do anyway. So that is the Dutch way. We are going to make what people do safe. That is the idea. If you can’t stop them from doing that or you don’t want them to stop from what they naturally will do, then you would make you would need to make it safe that they can do it. So in a North American situation, that would be make a safe crossing even if that inconveniences drivers because that’s usually why there are no crossings in the in a North American situation. I hear we don’t have those crossings. We have zebra crossings and it used to be so that you couldn’t cross within a certain amount of meters from this zebra crossing because that was illegal. But that was all abol abolished in the 1990s. You can now cross 5 cm next to a zebra crossing if you want to. Even next to a a an a crossing with a a traffic light. If you step beside it, the traffic light is not even applicable to you. You can just decide where you go. So yeah, um it’s very interesting how different we look at situations. You’re letting the people make safe what people do anyway. And in this case, you would make a safe crossing for these kids. Yeah, they deserve it anyway, don’t they? I mean, why would you ban them from from crossing the road if that’s what they want to do? We’re not right. Yeah. It it follows a lot of different trains of thought that people have about traffic safety. And you’ll see this even here in Vancouver a lot is people they look at punishment and and I would yeah basically people look at punishment as prevention which I don’t think is is is the best way to go about things right people are just trying to live their lives in a good way that it’s not about right wrong and no things happen and make make them happen in a safe way if that’s in any way possible that’s what we try to do so we look at things totally differently. So, another thing that the Dutch do differently. It’s something I really appreciate. So, uh I I cycled through a hill for some and this was on a this was because I watched your videos about these different places and I wanted to see for myself. One of them is the first bicycle and car stacked tunnel in Hverome called the Alexia Tunnel where underneath y is a car tunnel and right on top of that is a bicycle and pedestrian tunnel. And along the bicycle and pedestrian tunnel on the walls of this there are something I think it was 1.75 million holes and it makes up this this artwork along the hallway. I think Louise Hessle was the one who did it. It’s beautiful. Yeah. But as I hear this is a requirement. So so can you tell me about that one in particular and the broader aspect of why there’s so much art and different uh public infrastructure like this? Yeah. When when I called this the first stacked tunnel with a bicycle tunnel on top of a car tunnel, all the duties said, “Yeah, but we have other stacked tunnels like Rotterdam.” But there the pedestrians are stacked, the pedestrian tunnel is stacked on top of the bicycles. In Mastri, we have two car tunnels stacked on top of each other. This is the only tunnel where the bicycle tunnel is stacked on top of the car tunnel. Particular qualifier under a road and a a a railway. So that’s for the Duchies who become will become pedantic cuz that’s also a trait of the Dutch. Um yeah the the art that is a requirement indeed whenever you built a big project in the Netherlands like a big building public space like a hospital or anything like a tunnel or a roundabout even uh a certain percentage of the building sum needs to be spent on artwork on on on art. Yeah. So um in the bicycle tunnels we have sometimes murals or but they are susceptive to graffiti and in this case with the holes that is a really great idea because the holes form a pattern of fl of flowers and because of the holes you there’s it’s really difficult to put graffiti on and the holes also absorb sound. So this is a win-winwin situation. It looks good. Uh, it will look good in the future. And it also absorbs the the hollow sounds that normal tunnels would have. So, really nice. Other tunnels have murals. Like I said, I’ve seen a tunnel in Zeiss with uh pictures, blown up pictures of the surrounding area. So, you really arranging because of the proportions that are out of normality. So, that’s really nice. But, uh, yeah, the art is is part of our surroundings. We like to beautify things. We have quite a sense of what is beautiful and what is not in the Netherlands. I would say we also factor in maintenance in the building. Some that’s also something that not all North American states do. You see the state of some of the public things, the maintenance that is really astounding to us. I did a video once on a bridge in New York and a bridge in Z Boml which to me really looked alike and that is a coincidence but they really looked alike. The Zalt Boml bridge was 20 years old and the New York bridge was 5 years old and that looked really rund down compared to the Salt Boml bridge. That’s interesting. Yeah, it’s like buying a car strange. Yeah. And not expecting to have to change the oil and and get new tires and even fill the gas tank. You need to factor in the maintenance. Yeah. Yeah. We Yeah, we are good at doing maintenance in this country. I would say in general oft everything can always be better. But of course, it’s all relative, right? That’s what it always comes down to. Perfect in this country by no means, but uh yeah, some things are done really well. And I like the art in every tunnel. It also helps you that it doesn’t feel too too daunting to go into the tunnel. Also helps that you usually can see the exit of a tunnel because that’s a requirement that the walls slope outwards towards the top so that it feels more spacey. Yes. Oh, but we think about everything in this country and uh the way people perceive things, the psychology of that is really a factored in in every design also road design. Even how many um uh input can you process in time like the the traffic signals and the track signs and and written signs. you all you need time to process that and based on that input take the right decision regarding other road users etc etc there’s a whole psychology behind that that’s why Dutch roads to many foreign observers feel very calm we don’t have a an over an input of of of of visual uh yeah visual clutter like in other countries it feels intuitive in a lot try to keep it calm and the The road needs to be readable with in an instant. You must instantly know ah this is a calm country road. This is a main road and it should look the part. All those things we also do. So yeah it’s it I mean there’s this channel you must know not just bikes. Um and it is not just bikes. Uh we can talk about cycling in the Netherlands, but it’s always part of something bigger, part of of the way we design our our environment really. Yeah. And it it’s it’s something you see a lot here in in contrast like like for example a school zone. So there’s a school zone that I I go by frequently that I bike and there’s a sign that says 40 kilometers per hour only during school days between these hours. And it’s so it seems so silly to me. It’s like, okay, you’re driving here and you have to see a sign and then you have to think, okay, what time is it now? Okay, it’s within those those that eight that range. Is it a school day? I’m not sure. It’s like, is it you’ve already passed the school? Yeah. It’s like you’re already gone. Like, you’re already it’s already over. Like, there was a a school zone that I went by. It was in a very rural spot. It was north west of Amsterdam, kind of in between Amsterdam and and Elkmar. And it was just in this random spot, 15 km/h, giant chicanees, brick uh ground. Like there’s there’s no time and day you’re going to be going faster than that. It’s just like not possible. No. No. As we say, the whole design of the the of the roads and of the whole environment there in front of that school makes you obey the rules. Well, we don’t want to obey rules so much in the Netherlands. We But we do obey situations. Yeah. You you you induce that safe behavior. I think that’s such induce the behavior that you want by much more than just putting up a sign. Yes, absolutely. Doesn’t work. That’s universal. Yeah. So, so back to what you said about the Netherlands isn’t perfect, right? There’s always things that can be better. So, we had the opportunity like like I said earlier, you took me around your adopted hometown of Denbos is so so beautiful. It’s such an interesting city and there’s so many things I I’m I’m excited to share with it. If you’re watching this, the video is already out uh about my tour, but I’m you know that Mark has plenty of stuff that you can watch on his channel as well at at Bike Bicycle Dutch. But what I have to ask is is there anything in in Denbos that you think needs to be improved or can be improved? Or maybe that’s like the most pertinent to be improved right now. No, it’s not perfect. Although it won the best cycling city in the Netherlands a few years back, and that was a good reward, I think, for something the city did well. Um there is a place in the town just around the city uh main station. So the we don’t have a central station. We’re not that big of a city, but we have the main station. And that was designed in the late 80s and built in the early ‘9s and finished in 1995ish. Uh and that was designed still with a car in mind. So cars can come up to the front of the station and you have to cross big roads if well big roads for the Netherlands, one lane each direction, but it’s quite busy and you need to cross that as pedestrian coming from the train. Um but the station will be redesigned. So they’re already making plans and that that was the first thing they said on one of the first meetings of the where the public was informed. They said, “Yes, we know cars can go still way too much here and the car parking is way too close to this and it interferes and we will change that.” So, they will change it. So, I’ll be happy, but it will take another 10, 15 years. It’s always so interesting that everything that materializes now also these big bicycle parking lots that uh for instance in Ut the biggest one that was designed already 20 years ago and it took about 10 years and it is there now for 10 years and now they would already built it differently as you can see by the one they built under the water in front of uh Amsterdam station because that has doors that open the UT one doesn’t have where it’s always damp and cold inside. So that already changed. So we’re already always 10 years behind uh about what we think is good and what is actually there. Yeah, there’s always something to want. But yeah, it’s see the iteration, right? They’re constantly iterating. Funny thing is we do Google Street View hates the Netherlands because they have to come every two years at least to do the whole thing a new because every street changes all the time. I have these professors who come every year with another batch of summer school students and I show them around and they will always say, “Mark, you were here last year and it has already changed again.” Or and also I have these books then with me with the before pictures and the after pictures and I have to change that all the time because at a certain location I will say this will become this will become and then oh this is in the course of becoming and have the before and the after and now some places I like yeah this used to be I have to show the the after or the before picture in my book. Yeah and it changes all the time so it keeps me on my toes as well. No kidding. Well, you keep on top of it pretty well. Um, I try to. It is a hobby after all. I did that all my life without realizing it. I I mean, I was 10 years old when the cyclist union was founded 50 years ago. And uh I I I read that in the papers and I read in the papers when they changed a street and why they changed streets because of cycling. Maybe uh I was 10 years old when uh the traffic deaths were at an all-time record. So, I’ve lived through the history that the Netherlands uh has experienced and I’ve seen all that and I followed all it and I thought everybody did, but turns out no, it was an interest that I didn’t realize I had. So, yeah, all self-taught, but I followed it all my life. It’s incredible. And you’ve shared it with the world, right? Yeah. I like to show off. It’s also a sense of pride of what we do in this country, but it’s also a sense of that I would love other people to have what we have. Yeah. Because it’s so easy. It is so rewarding for society that that you can just hop on the bike and get half a loaf of bread and tomorrow you go again. Yeah, it is lovely. People who who shop by bike spend more Yeah. in total in the shops because they come so often. Yeah. And Yeah. I’ve know all we know all these figures and and but experience it experiencing it is really nice. So I like to show people that especially if they also like you bring out stuff to the world then I’m really happy to show them in a private session further spread it out right that’s what we try to do as well so speaking about to get soaking wet for a good cause exactly absolutely soaked uh speaking about being proud of the place you’re from if somebody is visiting Denbos and they have like an hour what what do they check out like what is like the the top thing or things that they they need to see in the city. Just one hour. That’s really It’s not much. If you if you’re interested as a tourist just to see the city, you have to go to the center. Uh the center is beautiful. We have a beautiful cathedral, beautiful squares. We have canals behind and under the houses because this city was so expanding so much that they had to use the space on top of the canals for housing. So that’s special in this uh city. And if you want to see something of the cycling infrastructure, well, it really doesn’t matter where you go, does it? We crisscrossed the the city uh in a in a in a rainstorm. 2 hours 40 kilometers up and down. We even crossed this the the provincial border. I already saw that clip in the video. We did that together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, doesn’t matter where you go, the cycling infrastructure will be interesting for a foreign eye especially. Uh, we don’t have the real blingy stuff like a big bridges. We do have some, but um, just the everyday what we call everyday cycling infrastructure that is everywhere and so connected and so usable and and in such a great state of maintenance. That is the attraction and doesn’t really matter where you go, you’ll see it everywhere. It’s incredible. And I think maybe if I were to point out one of my favorite thing, there was so many things I really enjoyed about Denbos. But the first path we took was heading north. We basically headed north all the way to the edge of the city. And I think what you said was this is basically five kilometers of uninterrupted riding because you have the ride of way the whole you just keep flowing. They used to be signalized intersections and one by one they were uh transformed into roundabouts with priority for cycling. And then all of a sudden when the last one was put in, I thought, hang on, we now have a non-stop cycle route from the city center all the way to the north and you just never have to stop unless some driver makes a mistake. But oh well, we go so slow that we can adjust for that. But uh in on the normal circumstances, you can just cycle without stopping. And that is the big attraction also of cycling in the Netherlands. We don’t need to race from red light to red light. We can just leisurely and very calmly cycle upright. Who needs a helmet, right? Because we can look around. We see everything coming. You have time enough to to to respond to others because there’s no visual clutter. Well, everything ties together. And yeah, it’s just relaxed cycling that I would love other people to have as well. Absolutely. And it’s one thing I would love is possible. I would love for people to actually experience it because I think so many people, especially people in power here in North America, haven’t not only haven’t seen it, haven’t heard of it, and definitely have not experienced it for themsel. And I think it’s such an important thing because it really is a breath of fresh air. And I’ve said this before that as soon as like even in Amsterdam like compared to here, you get off the plane, you get your bike, you get on the bike and it might be insanely busy, but it’s still such a better relaxing environment to ride around in even with those and most people wouldn’t want to cycle in Amsterdam because they feel it’s too intimidating for them. Even I Yeah, I wouldn’t recommend it to somebody who’s new to cycling to go ride somewhere else. But it’s still very relaxed and very nice to cycle even in Amsterdam. Yeah, it’s it’s something I I like and I try to convey all that with my videos, but seeing the videos and actually being here, it’s quite different. I know that. Yeah, there is really a a difference there still. But at least I can probably entice people to come and experience it for themselves by seeing the videos that I have. First and foremost, for people who are watching this, go to the Netherlands if you can. If you can’t, go watch Mark’s videos. So Mark, this is the opportunity for you to plug away anything you have. Oh, you find me on uh well, Bicycle Dutch is such a strange word. If you put that in Google, you’ll find me. So yeah, uh my my YouTube videos, my on my channel, which is called Bicycle Dutch and also my blog is bicycle.nl even. So yeah, but uh I think I’m the first one in Google what everybody wants because it’s such a strange name. Yeah. All right, Mark. Thank you so much for joining me. It’s been a pleasure. And uh well, I hope to meet you again in the Netherlands one day. Or even better, would be nice. It’s not so rainy. Yeah. You come over here to to Vancouver and let me tell you, it rains a lot here, too. So, make sure you come in July. I’ve seen Vancouver from a plane 10 km over Vancouver. Yeah. On my way to San Francisco. Not as good as the shortest route from Amsterdam. Yeah. Not as good as being here on a That’s the closest I came. I must visit some for for real. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks again and thank you to everybody listening. We’ll see you next time.