Welcome to a special series on the ten essential pillars of bike fitting.
We had such a good response from a recent webinar (https://foundation.fit/2024/02/19/bike-fit-essential-masterclass/) we did on this subject, and received so many questions, that we thought we would dive deeper into the 10 pillars and bring you a podcast episode for each of the ten pillars…
We have dedicated an entire episode to each of the essential pillars, so that you can take the exact same proven methods we use in our bike fit sessions and apply them to your own bike fit.
Hopefully this will be particularly useful for those riders who can’t make it over to our studio in London.
We will be releasing 2 episodes each week, one on Monday and one on Thursday.
Follow along in sequence and you will be able to build your bike fit up in the same order as we do in studio sessions.
As always, if you have any questions off the back of this series, get in touch.
We want to hear from you, and help you find that amazing bike fit you’ve been looking for!
So grab a seat, a cup of tea and tune in, so that we can share the knowledge we have accrued over 1000s and 1000s of bike fits
Parts 3, 4 & 5 of 10 – Cockpit Position
Once you have got your cleat position and saddle height right, you can move on to experimenting with your cockpit.
There’s a lot of variables to explore, so Mat and Wei delve into the different options to test, measurements to be aware of, bust some bike fit myths and give you the best way to figure out your cockpit position…
providing you don’t have an integrated cockpit (https://foundation.fit/2023/08/29/can-you-avoid-the-perils-of-integrated-handlebars/) …
Next Episode: Saddle Setback
Get in touch with Wei & Matt @ Foundation Bike Fit: info@foundation.fit (http://info@foundation.fit/)
If you have any further questions for us, join the conversation at: https://www.instagram.com/cyclingdemystified/ (https://www.instagram.com/softissuespod)
Are you ‘bike-fit curious’? Go to www.foundation.fit to book in for a session and get your fit dialled in at London’s premier bike fit studio.
Looking for a custom bike, a hand-built custom wheelset or other upgrades? Visit www.frequencycycleworks.com for more info and for pro-level servicing.
welcome to cycling demystified in a special series of podcasts on the 10 essential pillars of bike fitting we had such a good response from a recent webinar we did on this subject and so many questions that we thought we would dive deeper into the 10 pillars and bring you a podcast episode for each of them we’ve dedicated an entire episode to each of the essential pillars so that you can take the exact same proven methods we use in our bike fit sessions and apply them to your own bike fit hopefully this will be particularly useful for those Riders who can’t make it over to our studio in London we’ll be releasing two episodes each week one on Monday and one on Thursday follow along in sequence and you’ll be able to build your bike fit up in the same order as we do in our studio sessions as always if you have any questions off the back of the series get in touch we want to hear from you and we’ll help you find that amazing bike fit you’ve been looking for so grab a seat cup of tea and tune in so that we can share the knowledge we’ve AC Creed over thousands and thousands of bike fits once you’ve got your cleat position and saddle height right you can move on to experimenting with your cockpit there’s lots of variables to explore so Matt and wey delve into the different options to test measurements to be aware of bus and bike fit myths and give you the best way to figure out your cockpit position providing of course you don’t have an integrated [Music] [Music] cockpit welcome back dear listeners uh we are talking about cockpit position today in our bike fit uh podcast so what should we talk about we talk about uh cockpit reach or position overall position so I think overall position like where should your handlebars be common misconceptions about how to achieve that and some things we can do yeah at home to try and improve our handlebar position yeah on our own bikes assuming that you’ve got adjustability assuming you have adjustability that is a very good point and actually one very good reason a thess fan of writing the words there well I was going to say I was wondering whether or not we see more people coming in for fits now since the Advent of integration integrated cockpits because there is less adjustability I think that’ be a fair comment do you reckon I’d love to see some data on it um I feel like it’s anecdotally yeah you’re drop about to drop 10 G’s on a bike with only 15 mil of Stack adjustment no adjustment to the stem probably want to get it right yeah but that’s not why people buy buy bikes true they just buy it cuz it looks cool and they think it’s going to make them go fast you know so before you do drop a ton of money on a fully integrated cockpit that has very little adjustment probably want to make sure that your cockpit is in a good place if you’re basing your new purchase off something that you already ride yes unfortunately we are the voice of reason and practicality I know it’s not sexy we beacons of fashion and style yeah um but we are here to give you the Practical advice so that you can avoid the pitfalls of buying a bike and then realizing that it doesn’t really work for you but um let’s delve into a little bit more detail onto cockpits and why it’s important to get your cockpit position correct what you can do about it how you can test it and maybe some of the common misconceptions we get through the uh through the bike fit Studio that people um have kind of read online as it were so I’m going to go into the what it is what is cockpit position because there’s a lot that can influence this yes at its basic level it is how tall and how far away your handlebars your hands are from the bottom bracket and it’s most basic and I say handlebars and hands because the two are very different things so it’s yeah trying to find out what your what we call handlebar stack and reach is yeah so stack being how tall it is on the y- axis X being how long is on the x axis and then figuring out once you’ve got that in a good place where your hands need to go so grip stack and reach or Hood XY same kind of principle how tall your hoods are how far away they are from the center of the bottom bracket yeah and your choice of cockpit can influence this greatly but that is essentially what it is how far away your hands need to be from your feet yeah so I think there’s five Dimensions that will influence kind of or you can influence that will change your cockpit position uh one is the amount of spaces that you run underneath your stem uh so you can move the uh kind of Coit up and down two is the stem length so stem is the connection between uh your stere tube on the bike and your handlebars so that length the longer the stem then the further away your handlebars go uh handlebar width so that’s number three um I was going to say handlebar reach as well so handlebar very often overlooked yeah very much overlooked um handlebars have a reach element to them so how far they extend away from the clamping uh part of the handlebar so handlebars essentially have a length as well as a drop kind of measurement and we’re talking about drop drop style handlebars here um but even mountain bike handlebars have a uh reach element to them usually a back sweep element so they they’ll Bend kind of backwards and so actually your hands will end up further back behind you um but yeah this will have an influence on how far your your hands are Reaching Forward uh and then then also your the type of shifter hood that you’re installing on The Handlebar so new Shimano di2 shifters actually probably like 10 12 mil longer than the old ones and so these will have an influence on kind of how far away your cockpit feels how far away the controls feel so on uh did I miss one out stem angle St yeah so to in order to get or influence your handlebar height uh you can also change you can either change the amount of spaces that you use under the stem but you can also flip the stem angle um and even some handlebars will have like a rise in them as well so there’s lots and lots of different ways which you can recreate certain positions there’s lots of different uh bits of equipment out there and so every equipment choice you make has an influence on your fit but what are we trying to create its Essence in terms of a good handlebar position with all of these dimensions and influences what a people looking for yeah so both in terms of a road bike and a mountain bike or any bike position you want to have your hands firmly over the controls of the bike so the controls are there to enable you to break to change gear and also that’s where your bike is designed to be steered from so really important that you are as in control of your bike as possible like you don’t even have to think about where you place your hands in order to break or change gear uh and actually it’s it’s amazing how often we see people make making that compromise of like riding in a bike position but they’re constantly scared of you know not being able to reach brakes especially going downhill I can’t reach the brakes uh and this has a big impact on their riding um so essentially number one I’d say is to remain in control of your bike um number two is just you you might be able to reach the controls but are you comfortable kind of reaching your controls and if you’re comfortable can you maintain that position if you’re not comfortable you usually can’t maintain that position um anything else there I think that’s basically the two pillars isn’t it it’s like yeah Comfort and control yeah are you as comfortable as you need to be and in control as you want to be yeah for the type of riding that you’re going to do yeah and I know like if you look at the pro cyclist they always come up with some crazy handlebar positions and things like that but usually that’s because they’re trying to influence other things like aerodynamics and they’re willing to compromise the other aspects of their cockpit to usually safety usually safy yeah I mean so much so that the UCI has come back now and put a ban on the amount of flare and kind of angle you can place your hoods things like that because yeah it’s just not safe so stay in control guys unless you’re racing the Tour of France and you need every millisecond of marginal gain which you are not then uh yeah put safety first told you we were boring yeah run as fast as you can stop yeah absolutely so should we talk a bit about uh signs that you’re not in the right position or your cockpit could be out of position let go that yeah because it follows along from you know what we were just talking about so what what would we see if uh what common things do we see if uh someone’s not in control I’m going to start with a myth a myth start with a myth a higher cockpit and a shorter reach is more [Music] comfortable you just destroyed the entire endurance B category there and happily so so yeah so shorter and taller cockpits yeah good for some not for others yes absolutely so if you listen to our saddle height episode then one of the key takeaways is to experiment with your position explore and figure out what is best for you human beings come in lots of different shapes and sizes and proportions and particularly uh kind of leg length to torso length proportions and so you can have someone who’s the same height as the next person next to them well we’re pretty much the similar yeah height AR we yeah so we’re similar Heights but we’re very different in our proportional M wildly different bike positions I would not want to ride your bike M I don’t think I could ride your bike I think I’ll be able to reach the pedals yeah so what’s different about your bike you you’ve got like a 120 mil stem and 100 Mil reach handlebars yeah on a very long frame on a very long frame uh but your seat height isn’t as tall as mine but I’ve got a much I’ve got more seat height showing and a slightly shorter frame shorter reach bars and shorter stem uh yeah simar kind of like hit height though yeah but I think the basic premise is yeah finding out what works for you isn’t it like just because your mate is the same height as you it doesn’t mean that they’re going to need the same cockpit position so if we start with cockpit too high as I’ve kind of gone into that first what might you be feeling yeah if your handlebars are too high very apt we had exactly this yesterday didn’t we so yeah cockpits can be it’s just as bad to have a cockpit that’s too high as too low um because your body will want to adopt a certain torso angle like when you’re riding a bike you sit on the saddle but you need to lean forward you need to lean forward in order to generate power or Force um if you think about you if you think about starting a running race and getting down into the sprinter’s blocks like why do they exist it’s because you can get into a low uh powerful position to Spring out from the blocks from and so you kind of compress your body to Spring out from the blocks and essentially this is kind of what we’re doing on the bike we’re we’re kind of compressing our body a little bit leaning forward getting some of the bigger muscle groups that your glutes kind of ready to spring into action um so so we want to lean forward a certain amount uh but if our handlebars are a little bit too high then they’ll stop that body from kind of leaning forward to the amount that feels good for you uh and in between your torso and handlebars your arms and shoulders and so your arms and shoulders will have to kind of accommodate that somehow it may bend a little bit or not and depending on how far out your handlebars are then you might actually start to feel a bit of discomfort in your hands or your shoulders as the bar is as your body essentially wants to compress or be a little bit lower but it can’t get there without kind of pushing your hands or your shoulders or arms into the cockpit um so you actually might feel more pressure more pain more discomfort if your handlebars are too high you might might find your arms are locked out because they’re trying to kind of hold hold themselves away um at the same time you might be able to bend your arms and uh bend your elbows a lot to try and get yourself into the right torso position but then you just feel really cramped up so if you feel if you feel like there’s there’s not enough space or there’s a lot of pressure against your hands and arms then that might be a sign that your uh cockpit is too high or too short and both are just as bad as each other yeah and how do we find out what the best position is for us start making changes in the opposite direction yeah so again you don’t you don’t know what you don’t know and when we start a bike fit we don’t know if somebody is sat too high or too low or too far away or Too Short until we start making changes and still we start changing the position and seeing how their body reacts we can make assumptions for sure and this is what a lot of people do when they see other Riders out they just make an assumption based on their own knowledge but you really don’t know until you start changing things around um yeah so how would we tell if uh handlebars were say too far away so one of the telltale signs of handlebars too far away is your hand position relative to the controls mhm so a lot of times we see Riders who are riding bikes that are too long yeah where they can’t hinge forward far enough whereby they can put their hands right up into the grips on a drop bar bike or if they’re kind of sort of almost kind of doing a plank like a push-up on the on like a flat bar bike you trying to reach the reach the kind of the the handlebars so yeah if you’re kind of riding your default riding position is kind of on the bend of The Handlebar on a drop bar bike and you’re feeling a lot of pressure through your hands then potentially your handlebars or your grips are too far away your handlebar reach is too long um the might be a lot of other things going on but that’s a a Telltale sign another compensation is people scooting forward on the saddle and trying to cover distance that way you know you’re slamming the saddle all the way forward to try and make up for a reach that is is too great then that’s a whole world of consequence that you’re going to have to deal with Elsewhere on the bike yeah so yeah they’re the probably the most common ones um that we see um and a interesting sign as well is looking at wear on your B tape yeah yeah really if your bar tape is wearing in certain places then chances are that’s your default position and you might want to make some changes to try and get yourself further into the into the shifter hoods closer to the brakes and the gears yeah yeah so just have a look guys have a look at your handlebar tape see where it’s wearing if there’s some regular kind of wear marks usually at the bend then it might be a sign that your handle bars a little too far away the only I just Cy at that one circumstance and this is an interesting one for you to try at home if you’ve got a home trainer and you’ve got your bike set up and you’re tinkering around with your bike position a little bit like saddle height when you get to set your saddle height you’ve got to try putting uh a bit more pressure through the pedals and you got to see if that kind of Saddle height still feels good when you’re applying more pressure on the saddle as on the pedals so the same applies to your handlebar position so what happens when you start pedaling harder um what happens to your hand position does it change does the amount of pressure you feel through your hands change and essentially what happens is that as you push more power through the pedals your legs do more work to lift your body and hold your body up in space you’re putting less pressure on the saddle and so this can also influence how much weight you’re feeling on your hands and therefore how you know far you can actually reach you may find that alleviating some of that kind of pressure allows you to actually reach a little bit further so some races might find that they feel best when they’re going full gas they’re going threshold and above and this is where you want your bike to feel really really good and so you will optimize your bike position for that situation and so you want the reach to accommodate your hand position when you’re going really really fast but when you take the foot off the gas and you soft pedal you’ll find that suddenly a lot of weight comes back into the hands cuz your legs aren’t doing that work anymore back back into the saddle and so you might find that you can’t sustain that position on top of the hoods and maybe that’s fine because you want to optimize your bike for that kind of racing position and maybe if you’re doing crit races then you’re only racing for an hour or so so maybe that’s a fair compromise but if you’re not racing and you want to just use your bike um for the the weekend ride the club run do a little bit of bike packing all the rest of it you need to stay in control of your controls when you’re going at a a leisurely kind of pace I would say so you essentially need to test it outside at the intensity of where you want the bike to feel bestry yeah that that would be best I mean you can do a little bit indoors too the indoor train is useful in terms of like experimenting and kind of like playing around but then yeah bikes are designed to be ridden outside so it’s test it outside yeah but this is this is where like formulas and algorithms just fall flat because there is no choice there is just the one kind of determinant uh and I think what people need to do is to kind of use the algorithms and apps or whatever or bik fits that they go to as a starting point and then go away and experiment with a bit more knowledge and you know this reference point of okay this is where maybe my bike position should feel good what happens if I push it a little bit further what happens if I bring it back a little bit so talks about too long talks about too high talk about Too Short that leaves too low too low too wide as well too wide as well yeah yeah actually why wide is an interesting one yeah I had a lad in the other day who was riding he was over 6 foot and he was riding 44 width centimeter bars cuz that’s what come on big bikes yeah that’s what comes on big bikes like everyone thinks oh big guys bigger they are the wider they get but if anyone’s look to a cyclist that doesn’t they tend to just go up rather than out and actually he was having all kinds of issues and sitting really wonky on the bike and we got him on 38 bars and everything just straightened out it was like oh amazing that was the thing that made the most influence so yeah wide bars just too wide it’s just as bad as too narrow as well so too narrow you’ll find that uh you can’t control your bike bit more pressure on the hands can’t breathe as well CU your shoulders are collapsed inwards shoulders uh rolled inwards yeah the pressure tends to go towards the outside like the heel of your palm yeah like on the outside of it if you’re too narrow that’s a good giveaway that I’m currently feeling on my personal experience but you’re so Arrow mate arm as arrow is a b door but this is it this is this is again where choices come into it the there’s definitely a certain range in which you can operate you can ride those narrow bars and maybe it will make you a little bit more aerodynamic and therefore faster in certain situations but what what is the cost of that where the compromises it compromises comfort then you know if that becomes a priority then yeah go to a wider bar and test it and see what happens like does it feel more comfortable so how do we go about figuring out what is the right handlebar position oh apart from like testing a load of stuff if you’re kind of a home mechanic just putting your elbow at the end of the saddle and your hand up to the bar work back on to the myths AED question yeah so the the old Italian myth of uh putting your elbow on the tip of your saddle and then I think it’s like I think your stem your handlebar position was supposed to be three fingers or two fingers width love in front of your H extended hand if you extend if you placed your elbow against your tip of the saddle in a horizontal fashion towards your stem and then you added two or three fingers then that would be your handlebar position I mean amazing like where on Earth did that even come from why would that even work the pub that’s where that came from s BL just said yeah that’s how you like if if life was that easy mate like we’d all be like pro riders by now but yeah so don’t do that that what’s the other what’s the other favorite the other favorite oh it’s uh when you’re sitting on your sitting on the saddle and you got your hands on your hoods and you look down there’s your handlebar so where the uh stem meets The Handlebar clam does that cover your vision of the front hub another Banger like what happens if you got a really long neck yeah slack head tube angle yeah well like going back to saddle like what happens you got an Aron saddle which is super long versus a short nose saddle it’s it’s going to throw everything out isn’t it so don’t do that yeah so don’t don’t listen to these old Italian myths like this was these are just kind of myths from when people just didn’t understand bike fitting the main thing you need to do is to go out and test some stuff one thing at a time test it objectively change some things just see how it goes this is this is science this is what science is science is having a hypothesis and then testing it and seeing if it’s replicable trying to disprove it yeah science is not just like lasers and numbers science is a method and so you need to apply science to your bike fitting um that might be difficult because there’s a lot of things to change like uh stem lengths I mean stems if you don’t have an integrated cockpit then you can buy lots of different stems and change them out you can buy different handlebars change them out so on or borrow them off your mate talk to your Club talk to other people who ride try stuff out if you can’t do that then what do they need to do unfortunately it needs to come see us yeah need come get a bike fit cuz this is where we can test things we have all the s 150 Saddles we have stem changes handlebar width changes and this shifters all kinds of stuff so yeah it is the fastest way to test and to understand your bike fit but absolutely I recognize people want to test stuff themselves so I’m sure there’ll be people out there with drawers of stems which they’ve tested out and uh uh found out that they didn’t really work so but there’s a few guardan principles would we say we want to be in control of where our hands go mhm we want to be in control of our bike Y and have a kind of essentially just like a placement of your hands on your handlebars rather than using it as a stability point you want to be able to extend through your spine so you’re breathing hinging through your hips you can feel your core you can feel your glutes working you can feel your feet and if you think about driving a car you can make a very heavy object move with relatively little input that’s kind of the sensation you want to feel on the front end of your bike you do not want to be using the handlebars as a stability point is a contact point from which you can keep it rubers side down yeah and decide which direction you want to turn and if you are not feeling those things try something different yeah just try something different guys see if it’s better or worse if it’s worse you’ve not lost anything you’ve gained knowledge yeah absolutely if it’s better wicked it’s better yeah absolutely you know you’re going in the right direction yeah good stuff all right so let us know how you get along love to know if you’ve got any questions and uh yeah we’ll see you on the next one thanks Matt cow here’s what I want you to do I want you to tell all your friends about Me @ cycling demystified on Instagram tell everyone and leave us a review on your podcast platform whether it’s Spotify Apple music Amazon whatever that’ll help us out a lot suffering from numb hands tingling toes and any other persistent discomforts when you ride these are all signs that your bike fit could be improved if your bike fit curious get in touch with we or Matt by emailing info@ foundation. fit or finding them on Instagram at fdn bikefit finally for all your bike servicing needs Custom Dream bike or handbuilt wheels go to www.f frequency Cycleworks tocom or find me on Instagram @ frequency Cycleworks until next time [Music] WI