DFK Symposium Prevenient Grace

and so we’re happy that you’re here and although Josh hallahan is in the back of the room handling all of the I.T issues he is also the director of discipleship and conferencing and so he is as much in charge of this event as I would be but we’re very happy to be linking with students in Kenya and in Colombia and they’re on different time zones I don’t know if they will break for lunch with us or whether it will be breakfast for them but we’re happy that that Josh is connecting all of that well we’re going to pray together in just a moment but I couldn’t let this opportunity pass without mentioning some of the resources that we have upstairs and um just very quickly short of reading the works of Jacob arminius this is the best introduction to his works and I just borrowed these from upstairs so during the break time look around in the building get someone to show you around and uh Kathy can help you with any purchases um Richard Watson was the great Methodist Theologian that dealt so adequately with all of the Armenian issues this is a second edition reprint that has multiple articles about Calvinism and armenianism and then I’ll I’ll just mention uh the second edition of Grace for all each chapter is written from a different Armenian perspective some of this will overlap with uh prevenient Grace and some of it will overlap with other distinctive doctrinal issues so while you’re here we want you just to be aware of those resources now what will happen this morning is that Dr Shelton will give the keynote address after that address there will be three respondents and I’ll introduce those just so you’ll have some basis for dialogue and fellowship after we break for lunch when we come back in the afternoon um the the three panelists and Dr Shelton will dialogue and let us listen in so to speak and then I will move to the audience itself and so formulator write down the questions that that are burning in your mind you will have a chance to ask those so don’t let those slip from your memory um but right now let’s let’s just join our hearts together in prayer father we come to you in the name of Jesus you’ve revealed yourself to us through Jesus who is full of grace and truth we acknowledge that Jesus is our source of Truth but we thank you that he relates to us through your grace and so we invite the Holy Spirit to come equip us to receive truth and experience Grace unite the pair so long disjoined knowledge and vital piety learning and Holiness combined this we ask in the name of the Triune God amen Dr Brian Shelton has worked in higher education for 20 some years at four different Christian institutions uh he is the professor of theology the department chair for Asbury University’s Christian Studies and philosophy department but soon to be the dean of the school of Christian Studies and philosophy at Asbury University is their designated Wesley scholar in Residence and we published in 2014. uh his book this is not the only book that he’s written but we’ll focus on this book today Dr Shelton’s book prevenient Grace we’re happy that you’re here would you join me in welcoming him to the Dennis kinloff symposium thank you Dr reasonerm thank you to the Francis Asbury Institute for this Symposium of theological dialogue it is an honor to have your name on the flyer there underneath that of Dennis f kinlaw now thanks to the panel for the engagement ahead and thanks to all of you for coming out uh today if I had to give a special award for those who came out it would of course be those in foreign countries but another honorable mention always my dad right here in the center of the room at the great award ly be to the pastor of Winchester First United Methodist Church who’s a former student from Georgia and I’ve not seen for 15 years until this day Teddy poor the Reverend Teddy pour right there so thank you for coming I love you thank you in an unpublished sermon on Philippians 2 John Wesley uses the analogy of a jailed prisoner to illustrate Humanity’s sinful bondage and God’s liberating Grace while a certain man is held in prison another person comes to the cell unlocks the door and calls the prisoner to Freedom but of course can’t force the prisoner to leave the potential rescuer however offers Liberty that was not before available such is provenient Grace The Prisoner is enabled and invited to be free from his cell but must exit on his own just as one who is in bondage to sin is enabled by grace to be able to have faith in Christ but the person must accept this freedom on his or her own this grace is appropriately also called enabling Grace enabling The fastbound Sinner to be free meanwhile and Wesley’s Treatise predestination calmly considered he characters the confidence view of the same scenario by employing the alternative doctrine of unconditional election here the Liberator pleads to the prisoner Come Ye Come Ye from that evil Place why would you die one prisoner replies why because we cannot help it we cannot help ourselves and you will not help us it is not in our power to break the gates of brass and it is not your pleasure to open them we must die because it is not your will to save us this bothers Wesley that the prisoner cannot leave I desire to know he says how is God good or loving to this man either with regard to time or eternity now it is not the friendliest of things to open a symposium by foiling off your intellectual counterpart but the example illustrates both the inspiration of prevenient Grace that comes to The Sinner and also reveals the tension among Christians of different soteriologies tensions both in 18th century London for Wesley and in 21st century cities well tensions in most places except Wilmore pravini Grace is one of those beautiful realities presented from scripture in encapsulation of the love and the provision of God a couple clarifiers to start one while the reformed or calvinist thoughts will be referenced several times let’s make it clear this is not the negative opposite of the positive principle of pervading Grace today sin is the negative condition two throughout the presentation as in Christian theology having faith or exercising belief this includes the hope of a savior a trust in that savior repentance for that Savior and a dedication to live and surrender to that savior this is what is meant today by believe three providing Grace is the grace of God which precedes salvation does not mean to prevent it is not a trick by God to stop crazy repenture or anything is the opposite it frees beforehand it does not block both words of course have this same root right you may know this prevenere to come before and this brings us to our great definition on the handout Grace is the Divine Act of coming to each Lost Sinner to draw him or her to God enabling and kindling a desire for something beyond our condition of sin this Grace frees to persuade it is the work of the Holy Spirit to Foster reflection about God’s existence or the spirit’s initiative to cause one to feel sickened by sin or his whisper there is hope for you in Christ try him is this impulse that leads a high schooler to the altar at a camp meeting or an adult to seek out a pastor to inquire about the merits of Christianity or even a child in a Christian home to declare I want to accept Jesus into my heart mom this is God at work is the Great Precious Moment before before salvation sometimes it’s kind and sometimes it is craggy even messy in which the spirit cultivates in us a desperation to reach for something more the Christ of calvary it is here that the Transcendent God shows his imminence it is here that the Eternal God shows temporality by investing in a vision a vision for a Greener pasture for the Sheep lost in the wilderness should the foundational understanding of this Doctrine still be blurry by the end of the Symposium I know that page 258 to 262 has a basic explanation it’s a summary actually in catechetical form asking questions and answers meanwhile in your textbook if you turn to page 140 you’ll see the words of John Wesley describing this phenomenon prevenient Grace at the quotation inset page 140. his God’s first step is to Enlighten the understanding by that general knowledge of Good and Evil enlighten to this he has many secret reproofs if they act contrary to This Light many inward convictions of which there is not a man on Earth who has not often felt at other times he gently moves their Wills he draws them and wounds them as it were to walk in the light he instills into their hearts good desires though perhaps they know not from whence they come thus far he proceeds with the children of men yay even with those who do not have knowledge of his written word but in this what a field of wisdom is displayed suppose man to be in some degree a free agent how is every part of it suited to this end save man as man to set life and death before him and then to persuade not force Wesley says him to choose life pravinia Grace is the part of The Wonder of our salvation each of us can probably articulate a testimony of precise calls and events of our own a belief story then we frame it as a spiritual journey right but the elements comprising the softening of a hard heart or the repentance of a sinner or as mysterious as the love of God and giving his only begotten son for Sinners for this reason and for the initial bondage breaking effect of God we can speak today of the positive principle of providient Grace the positive principle understanding this positivity does not begin with the ruling of the spirit however we cannot employ a positive language without some negative it begins with a dimension of helpless sinfulness on the part of the person for example the Apostle Paul remarks we were dead in our trespasses and I know and mean no good thing dwells in fact that which I hate is what I do David remarks in Psalm 51 I was born conceived in sin when one looks at the harm archeology doctrine of sin in Scripture it seems to pound this message of sinfulness and our inability to repent and to believe suddenly all of us all Sinners are in a catch-22 unable to repent because of our sin but unable to see our repentance sorry our sin to bring us to that repentance Colin Williams who Vic chose with a great quote for today Williams has identified this stalemate quote further gifts are necessary there it is to enable people to come to repentance and then to justification what it means is that God directly intervenes into the lives of people seeking to start them on the road to Salvation John Wesley realized the strong condition of sin pervasive and extensive to be rightly recognized by the reformed tradition that he declared that he was within a hair’s breath of Calvinism thus the Wesleyan Armenian can concur with Paul by Grace We’re saved through faith and that’s not of ourselves it is a gift of God the Wesleyan arminia can also cry with Luther Sol agration grace alone knowing that left to our own devices we would be stuck in sin this is what is called The Human Condition a state of sinfulness requiring divine grace to break the cycle cut off from our source to use the language of Dennis kinlaw enter God the holy spirit with pervening Grace listen to arminius I’ll break the court apart from page 106. as he describes the following condition prevenient Grace saving grace and sanctifying grace a kind of Armenian shame in his laps in sinful State man is not capable of and by himself either to think to will or to do that which is really good That’s The Human Condition then comes the prevenient grace and arminius’s words but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect affections or will and in all his powers by God and Christ through the holy spirit that that person may be qualified rightly to understand esteem consider and perform whatever is truly good that’s salvation and he continues with sanctification when he is made a partaker of this regeneration of renovation I consider that since he is now delivered from sin he is capable of thinking willing and doing that which is good but yet not without the continued AIDS of divine grace the same Grace which enables us saves us that Grace which saves us sanctifies us we are never without and never without needing Grace so we call it provenience not because it’s a different type of Grace but because of how we see it on the timeline of the Salvation process before salvation through effects Come From prevenient Grace again your hand up first the sinful hold that prevents us from surrendering our hearts to Jesus is broken praise God this comes as an invitation towards God away from sin can greater aptly calls this the arresting tugging wooing and convicting of the spirit second a universal extent comes with this opportunity so that the Western Armenia can speak honestly that all can be saved third it illustrates the Divine commitment to his creation restoring a covenant that his people did not and could not keep this is what is called the Wesleyan Armenian position it Bears the name of Jacob arminius because he first articulated philosophically and theologically with those bents in a church that did was not so prone to promote free will it Bears the name of John Wesley because he furthers arminius’s thoughts applied it to preaching and an absurd number of venues for all to hear in the book you will see them called artisans for their contribution to a Divine mitigating or softening of the heart to be able to respond they draw off the historic Christian tradition by going back in some ways around the Reformation with its emphasis on electing Grace to a more historic Universal Grace this sets us apart it sets us apart from some other Christians who maintain a similar system but with Watershed differences in particular the reformed or calvinist position from the great reformer John Calvin the tradition cannot speak of a universal mitigation of sin a universal opportunity for salvation or a universal engagement by a saving God if you find it so spoken this is what God would but not what God actually Wills for these Christians only the elect receive a perverted Grace and only because they were unconditionally elected to believe through a predestining Act of God John Calvin and his contemporary followers can agree that the spirit convinces draws and wounds but only the elect the non-elect cannot believe their cycle of sin and unbelief is not broken leaving them alone in sin thus Wesley’s analogy of a prisoner who claims he cannot leave the open cell we’ve seen that Wesley himself struggled to understand the position in his essay on free Grace he took La Calvin’s language of that awesome decree God’s anticipation of the Fall that led to God beforehand predestining some to Salvation Calvin’s awesome degree in the Latin of the institutes called decretum horribulus and Wesley called it that horrible decree he blasts the doctrine quote you represent God as worse than the devil more false more cruel more unjust but you say you approve it by scripture hold it cannot be whatever scripture proves it can never prove this here we can place Wesley on the timeline of Christian history 200 years before his birth Martin Luther had not yet posted 95 thesis on the Wittenberg Church door Luther and Calvin it’s a follow that great event their momentum gave birth to a reform movement and a Protestant church that’s centered theologically on free Grace to offset the medieval Catholic tenancy tours works now we can create actually a pendulum on matters of Salvation the reformers swung the pendulum live from any notion of Good Works landing on an emphatic sinful to property for Humanity a total inability to repent and believe the tea of two type of total so sinful in fact that both reformers believe that the only Escape for Sinners was the gracious predestination of salvation of some the elect who would receive the grace to repent all others would not and could not be saved the calvinist movement with his Divine institutes Advanced from Geneva to the low lens this is Holland in particular among the Dutch reform to England then among the Puritans thus Jacob arminius in Leiden Holland and Wesley in Bristol found themselves in a world marked by a hegemony of the reformed tradition as arminius wrote against this calvinist notion it led to the regional Senate of door condemning Province Grace and any notion of a healed free will to believe Wesley also was pressured by Calvinists perhaps best seen in his tumultuous relationship with his great friend when he was a great friend George Whitfield for both Artisans the notion of divine predestination only to the elect undermined the gospel message its power and its healing Arthur wood insists that that gospel availability was everything to John Wesley the preacher going to pastoral implications quote for Wesley the gospel itself was at stake unless he could assure all who flocked to hear him that the Savior had died explicitly for them and that they too might enter into Life by repenting and trusting in the merits of Christ’s death and Wesley felt he had no General good news to announce especially in their context armenius and Wesley recognized and promoted the positive principle of provenian Grace cultural interest evidenced by the book reception this is a section I call a break from the theology it’s been nine years since the publication of pravinian Grace bearing the Francis Asbury Society imprint I’m thankful to them now on this Summit day as I was then special thanks John Oswalt its editor as well as Ken Collins the late hero Burgess for their original confidence in the manuscript the church’s interest in preventing Grace I think is Illustrated through the reception of the book nine years sometimes it was heralded as a testimony to a Biblical system worthy of promoting sometimes it was seen as a threat to a theological system worthy of dismantling identified as the only comprehensive treatment on the subject of preventing Grace the recent appreciation of the book among Christians can be a measure of success so let me list some for you the book is sold about 1400 copies modest among best sellers but still a recognizable contribution to Wesleyan studies not counting but 46 companies were sold here today they received it receives scholarly attention in journals like Westminster theological Journal Wesleyan theological Journal even the journal for Baptist Theology and Ministry it received attention in scholarly blogs notably those of Ben witherington Roger Olsen it led to other opportunities on the top of the providing Grace for me from a catalyst magazine 2015 to a Wesleyan order saludis appearing next year the invitation from the Catalyst editor led me to later hiring that Editor to be spiritual formation director at my last institution providing Grace in an article provided proving Grace to a work situation the book led to a seven-minute seminary video with seed bed which in turn led to three hours of response in critique by the calvinist holy bold podcast seven minutes which by the way was spontaneous they said hey you want to do a seven minute uh to three hours so I misquoted a verse and that was one of the Quran it led to three National Conference presentations Baltimore Atlanta Fort Worth it led to two back and forth debates uh with reform scholars in the literature Tom Nettles of Southern Seminary as well as reform scholar Alexander Rutherford neither have I met personally it led to two seed bed Publications where they co-opted material from the book and called me a seed bed author the author wasn’t consulted but to quote Phineas Barnum all publicity is good publicity and prayers God I’m genuinely glad that they could use it and led to several podcast interviews on Nicholas Noel and Stephen hausa you may know it was cited by Scholars from the Catholic Eduardo echeveria in a book on that tradition’s Divine election to the Nazarene David field in a book on Church Unity it was the basis of a Reconciliation dialogue between denomination leaders and a University faculty of the Missionary Church numerous online reviewers showed appreciation for it including an anonymous Kindle review perhaps it was one of you quotes Dr Shelton’s Treatise on preventing Grace is the best written work on the subject I have seen unquote perhaps Anonymous was me I I think this report shows the present life of the doctrine of pravian grace and when it offers a contemporary church around our understanding of Salvation particularly when you consider 16 million Southern Baptists in America with that a conservative swing 30 years ago I think the alternative is attractive for me the case for pravinia Grace an audience like this does not need a defense of the doctrine of pravini grace but still briefly briefly a survey of biblical theological and historical basis for the doctrine can be offered Wesley employed four biblical passages as evidences of prevening Grace first John 1 9 describes how Jesus is the light that enlightens all mankind Christ came into the world and John’s prologue to promote belief partially met by unbelief regardless of a lot of exegetical debate around the syntax Jesus enlightens all in some capacity by his incarnational work second as Jesus stood amidst the Passover crowd at Jerusalem in John 12 32 he remarked when the son of man is lifted up He will draw all to himself Jews would immediately remember the Wilderness numbers 21 story when they were delivered from the Judgment of God’s poisonous snakes by looking at Moses bronze snake on a pole which was lifted up God’s provision for their salvation the lifting up is a type of Christ Calvary and notice the drawing is an attractive opportunity for salvation hear atonement is connected to pravini Grace the term prolepsis is maybe needed to answer a question in your mind Christ’s work is applied backwards to all people since the fall of Adam like the promissory note of a college student getting the degree now and paying it later thus Hebrews could say it is impossible for the blood of goats and Bulls to take away sins all along the way that’s Mr Wesley could tell Mr Mason in his letter Adam’s sin is canceled by the righteousness of Christ third Paul writes in Romans 2 how no no Jew should boast in his or her righteousness before the law or the Legacy the Heritage as covenantal people to be sufficient for salvation it doesn’t work instead in verse 4 Paul declares do you not know the God’s grace leads you to repentance James Dunn describes how this is rhetoric of wisdom literature Romans 2 4 it is on your handout noting a meaning concern with more of a giving opportunity for repentance and not to the repentance itself fourthly Paul writes to Titus in creates the scope of the Gospel availability expands even to the stereotypical Pagan in Titus 2 11 for the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all commentator Philip towns explains how this is a revolutionary perspective in an exceptional display of God’s work because in scope it is universal reaching in some way to all compared with Pagan beliefs in a patron God who might deliver a favored City from crisis the claims of Christianity are startling the cretans become an illustration of the universality and the power of the Gospel with notice the place of Grace as the instrument of the call to Salvation oh additional passages of universal opportunity might be employed second Peter 3 9 the Lord does not wish any should perish but all come to repentance First Timothy 4 10 he’s a savior of all people especially those who believe simply John 3 16. whosoever believeth sound bites notwithstanding it’s the comprehensive Free Will of biblical figures the calls to believe as salvation the universal potential of Salvation in all the Bible combining into a theological synthesis to show compatibility between pravinia grace and the biblical salvation story our Wesley Armenian tradition does not merely interpret passages in Free Will in our favor we are Wesleyan Armenian because of the comprehensive consistent obvious quality of Salvation being conditioned upon enabled belief a belief perpetually Universal and opportunity throughout the pages of scripture beyond the Bible historical Theology of the church reveals the same productivity towards operating with this Universal opportunity the book Marshalls for you irenaeus origin mercarius John cashion Bernard clairvaux Thomas Aquinas Richard hooker John Milton Richard nieber Emma Bruner as diverse examples who positively articulate the notion of Grace Sometimes using the term itself but the two greatest artisans are of course arminius and Wesley another example from arminius talking about free will is not only imprisoned destroyed or lost from the fall its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace but it has no power whatsoever except those that are excited by divine grace for Christ has said without me you can do nothing about this extent our minis would also declare this Aid is afforded to all people by innumerable methods both secret and manifest a final and summative statement from Wesley for you quote salvation begins with that which is usually termed and very properly preventing again preceding Grace including the first wish to please God the first dawn of light concerning his will the first slight transient conviction of having sinned against them it all begins with proving it Grace implications other intersections of this theology are worth mentioning these offer coherence with other elements of Christian Theology and god-saving mechanism in provenian grace these topics Center on God’s relationship to creation and his people the church I will not elaborate on them here I will simply pose them as implications and allow the panel and the audience to explore these further if we want I’ll touch on him quickly one the trinity Systematic Theology often depicts the economy of the Trinity this way the father initiates the son accomplishes the spirit fulfills other ways of describing it but you get to this directionalism a deeper exploration of preventing Grace perhaps lies in the complementary agency of the father son and spirit perhaps the son’s instruction and the Lord’s prayer may have pervaded Grace in mind when we pray yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory I don’t think I’ve ever heard a sermon on the phrase of course without naming it perhaps Jesus words when he the spirit of truth comes and guides you in all truth and speaks of what Jesus says maybe this is at work in John 16 8 the spirit will convict you of all sin sometimes the unveiling of the parencharesis of the Trinity warrants our reflection such as when the teleology of the spirit’s Grace includes the Christian being conformed to the image of the son perhaps the inspiration of life that comes to the Earth and Adam is a worthy parallel to Jesus breathing on his disciples not just a foreshadowing of Pentecost but an emblem of a comprehensive New Life first idealized in Genesis and then realized that Calvary Pentecostal think on the Trinity for this number two relationship between Universal pravinia Grace and Calvin’s common Grace common Grace is a term describing the grace of God given to all people without discrimination in their state of salvation for example God causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the righteous and unrighteous specifically the image of God and every person provides the ability for them to do good for their neighbor or to paint beautiful art or to perform an athletic feat an impressive one even while the person is in Rebellion to God Calvin calls it common Grace and is actively and universally delivered Grace by God quoting Calvin yet so Universal is this good that every person ought to recognized for himself this particular grace of God the Creed the create the sorry creature of nature himself abundantly arouses this gratitude in us the Creator causes this thing this is coming from a predestinarian this is within hairs breath of arminianism a universal common Grace could be a close sibling to prevent your grace three the preaching of the word this is the easy one by the way a theological rationale for the preaching of the Gospel could easily involve a dynamic doctrine of prevenient grace when Paul speaks to the Corinthian Church my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom but in demonstration of spirit and Power Luther would remark about his Pulpit Ministry I simply taught preached and wrote God’s word I did nothing the word did everything the reformed how about that Westminster larger catechism I like the best quote the spirit of God makes the reading especially the preaching of the word an effectual means of enlightening convincing humbling Sinners driving them out of themselves drawing them into Christ and there’s a even longer list there the altar call is a symbol of this potential Francis Asbury Appalachia for example creates space for mourners at the altar eventually established in the camp meeting the Evangelist declares the word to Foster People to respond not just intellectually to the sermon but to the work of the spirit in the Pew and the Heart of the listener by pravinian grace four I think baptism as a means of Grace those who believe that God ordained baptismal means of Grace generally practice and infant baptism anglicans episcopals Catholics Orthodox lutherans methodists United and Global I squeezed it in Presbyterians Reformed Church Believers to name a few agree that God works through the sacrament towards the individual salvation the baptismal Grace is the work of the spirit as is pravian Grace so it’s not surprising that some connection could be made here Wesley describes it quote the spirit of God in baptism draws us from the power of death into the liberty of the children of God perhaps the inclination to wonder or pursue God in ability enabled by providing Grace Finds a conjunction with this other form of Grace how to use the word conjunction for Ken Collins five the potential of natural Revelation may be the riskiest providing Grace could be an aid to Natural theology theological naturalists in which we imagine the existence of the true God from creation the potential finds voice in Romans 1 when it describes how the Gentiles recognize God in creation but fail to honor him for since the creation of the world Paul writes his invisible attributes his eternal power divine nature have been clearly seen being understood through what was made so that they are without excuse logically if these Believers should have known God from creation and are indicted for it that it stands to reason they could have known God through these means could be code for proving Grace I like to illustrate Don Richardson’s popular eternity in their hearts if you remember this book it attempts to gather historical episodes of individuals from spheres of Revelation particularly those that walked out of the village seeking God they eventually encountered the opportunity to hear the gospel he proposes the Melchizedek factor in which general Revelation directs people to find the true God he posits that the world is in a condition prepared for the gospel while the Lord provides a gospel prepared for the world this traditional natural Revelation could be assisted by a supernatural Revelation in pravinia increase conclusion a doctor of Prive Grace best explains the biblical data of the paradoxical inability of The Human Condition and the universal expectation of repentance that requires gracious ability provide a great singularly accounts for the Deep depravity described there the universal opportunity of whosoever believes and the essential tenant that by Grace we are saved just as a prisoner Story by a Wesley opened this time let me close with another brother Charles Wesley penned the great hem and can it be the phrase Christ coming to the effect of the jailed prisoner verse 3 relates words that you know long my imprisoned Spirit lay fast Bound in sin and Nature’s night thine eye diffused a quickening ray I Rose the dungeon filled with light My Chains fell off my heart was free I Rose went forth and followed thee amazing love has done this enabling for us and we are changed forever and ever amen thank you [Applause] thank you so much we have three distinguished panelists who have a wealth of experience and study and um the first will be Dr Suzanne Nicholson she is the professor at of New Testament at Asbury University she taught for 16 years at Malone University before coming here she received her PhD in New Testament studies from the University of Durham and she is the assistant lead editor for Firebrand recently she was ordained in the global Methodist church and we celebrate that Milestone with you Suzanne come and share with us I had two versions of my notes so the question was which version do I use right now well thank you to Dr Shelton for a wonderful presentation uh if you have not read his book already you will thoroughly enjoy it it is a very very good overview explication of pervenient Grace and I found it very helpful as well just clarifying some things nuancing conversations so definitely you know make sure this doesn’t just sort of go on the bookshelf sometimes I do that when I buy books it goes on the bookshelf to be read later this is one you need to read now and really understand the roots of our Wesleyan Heritage so thank you very much uh I think what I’m going to do is I’m going to give you some comments and then I’m going to finish with my five favorite things about permanian Grace how’s that sound that’s my little teaser for you I’m gonna try not to take up too much time here there we go so first of all I think one of the things that’s so important about this Doctrine is understanding the connection with the doctrine of sin venient Grace doesn’t make sense apart from our understanding of sin and I think in our modern culture today that is becoming something where where people talk a lot less about Sin and they don’t want to talk about Sin but if we are not sinful if we can do things on our own if if my truth is my truth and everything’s good um we don’t need provenian Grace we don’t need God to intervene in this way the reason that provenient Grace makes sense is because we recognize from scripture that we are all sinful we are all thoroughly sinful and we cannot come to God on our own and so I think this connection is incredibly important and I think there’s a really important practical implication from this in the language that we use actually Dr Shelton hasn’t hasn’t talked about this in his implications I’m sort of teasing this this out of of provenian Grace that we can maybe talk about this more later and I almost hesitate to say because I think it’s gonna be a little bit unpopular I think in pastoral care when we see people hurting and grieving and there is just so much of that today people who are full of anxiety and depression often what we hear people say is I’m unlovable nobody can love me and what they’re getting at or what they sometimes say is I’m unworthy and our Temptation and pastoral pastoral care moments is to say you are worthy you are worthy but that’s actually not true theologically if we think about the sinfulness of humanity we are not worthy and so I think we need to be careful to avoid that language what we need to say is none of us is Worthy but we are loved and that’s a really important distinction that comes out of pervenient Grace is it still holds a strong doctrine of sin but provenian Grace tells us we’re loved anyway and there’s actually a beauty and a freedom in that because if if we I mean when we think about love so often in this culture love is connected to what we do I love that football player look at the way they run that ball down the field they’re my favorite football player right but it’s because of what they do and yet if we want to talk about God loving us God loves us because of who God is because of God’s immense desire to love his creations marred and broken as we are that’s something really beautiful about God and so I don’t want to cheapen God’s love by saying well there’s something about me that is worthy I’m not worthy of God’s love none of us is but that’s a that’s the beauty of who God is and his incredible forgiveness toward us that while we were yet sinners while we were enemies of God God loved us Jesus died for our sins that’s beautiful and it’s profound and we lose some of that if we cheapen the doctrine of sin and pervenient Grace helps us to understand the tension between those things uh but the beauty of who God is and God’s love so I think that’s a really important practical implication of understanding the relationship between sin and convenient Grace pervenient Grace of course um emphasizes the greatness of God’s love toward all people and and the Really the the consistency of God we’ve heard a number of scriptures about this if God really tells us that he loves the whole world in scripture after scripture after scripture and God loves all people I think that a pre a doctrine of pervenian grace is is far more compelling than a reformed doctrine of limited atonement because well that’s that’s love for some people but it’s not necessarily for all um this kind of a Doctrine helps us to understand God loves everyone God does what God does what Christ dying on the cross is for all of us not for a limited few again it’s it’s a greater Doctrine or understanding of God and God’s love when we understand provenian Grace a couple of other observations from this again there’s so many things to pull out of these chapters it’s really hard to limit myself to just a few comments here the reformed arguments um that the term provenient Grace is never used in scripture is really short-sighted because you know what the word Trinity is never used in scripture either and that is part of our Dogma it’s part of our basic creedal understanding of who Christians are is the trinity so the fact that provenient Grace is not used in scripture we want to look at the concept and so I think we need to be very clear that the concept is in there and of course Dr Shelton has shown this uh in his book in his explication of these scriptures that’s really important one of the things I found particularly helpful was Dr Shelton’s clarification of the difference between total depravity the T and the the calvinist Tulip and repaired depravity and I think sometimes when I’m when I’m teaching in my intro theology classes and I’m like okay you know there are places where Calvinism and arminianism come really close together and Wesley is a hair’s breath you know from from Calvinism you know I sometimes sort of say well you know they kind of agree on total depravity and really that’s not the case and so to Nuance that language is very important um that that we understand that all humans are sinful so we certainly agree on that but certainly if we understand pravinian Grace it’s not total depravity any longer because we have convenient Grace and so now we have a repaired depravity that brings us to a place where where no we are not you know it’s not universalism it’s not we’re all universally saved but we are now at a place where we are enabled to respond to God and that is different than the calvinist understanding of total depravity so I think that nuancing is really helpful um that that he brings out in this book I don’t want to take too much time for you all here because we have some wonderful panelists I want to hear from a couple of things just he discusses uh trinitarianism and again I already mentioned well the language of Trinity is not in scripture but it’s we believe in Trinity um but I also want to sort of pull on on some of those thread threads about trinitarianism so on 205 there’s a wonderful quote here about how convenient Grace sort of preserves or or speaks into trinitarianism he says whereas the father initiates salvation and represents the trinity in its execution and whereas the sun accomplishes salvation and its means so the spirit applies salvation by convicting calling washing and giving eternal life so I think that’s really important to to have all of those things and I do think sometimes in our churches some it depends on your denomination if you talk more about God the father if you talk more about Jesus or if you talk more about the spirit but sometimes I think the spirit gets lost and so part of the beauty of a Wesleyan theological understanding is how the spirit just permeates everything from before we even know God to everything that we are doing now to what we will be doing in the future and just recovering that understanding that fully orbed trinitarian understanding of God at work and understanding that as part of the spirit’s work in inconvenient race is very important for us as well uh he also discusses and again I think I’m not going to read some of the quotes that I would like to hear but I will point you to page 178 um Just for future reference in some of the the discussion between the reform tradition and Armenian uh understandings that that sometimes the reformed tradition tries to put a wedge between a Biblical understanding and a philosophical or logical understanding of you know basically accusing our minions of well you’re just sort of looking at sort of the logic of convenient Grace but they’re saying it’s not scriptural and so by Framing it that way basically Calvinists are like do you want to be biblical or do you want to be logical and so part of what Dr Shelton has done in this book is to show that that’s not what the doctrine of provenian grace is about doctrinal provenian Grace looks at scripture looks at all of these passages that discuss God’s love for all of the world God working in all of the world and wanting all to be saved and so it is scripture that is giving us this Doctrine it is not you know some desire that we apply to scripture itself it’s a philosophical you know pre-understanding that we have so I think that’s also very very helpful to recognize this this very much is based on scripture not some wishful thinking uh one more thing about preaching and then I’ll give you my top five so we can get to some of the other folks here uh so when he discusses uh preaching about permanent Grace uh certainly Dr Shelton discusses how the spirit empowers our response to preaching um and I can’t remember exactly where this is in the book I was I was going to look it up but I’m not I’m not sure where it is one of the things he mentions is that evangelicals often will cite the day they gave their life to Christ and he says this is actually kind of short-sighted because what it does is it ignores convenient Grace you know that’s the day when I met God no you God met you long before that God was working things in your life long before that and so part of what we need to do in our testimonies about God at work is to say God was there God was there God was there God was there I didn’t see it at the time but boy that day when I gave my life to Christ I looked back and I went oh he was there the whole time and so thinking about how we give our testimonies and how when we’re preaching we talk about giving your life to Christ what if we preach more about God has already been at work in your life think about our Evangelistic preaching and our missional God has already been working in the background you just need to recognize what God is already doing because God already loves you even though you are a sinner that’s the beauty of the love of God and provenient Grace God is already at work you’ve done nothing to deserve it but God is already there just because of who God is and because God is loving so we need to maybe some of the ways that we preach in response to understanding uh convenient Grace um and even things I think about the outpouring right so so you know a lot of times we talk about well the outpouring started on February 8th did it though did it we I’ve Heard lots of stories of people who were praying a couple of months beforehand and the spirit poured forth in their prayers and they’re like well people having visions ahead of time that God was going to do this thing and if you say well people were praying for it ahead of time well that’s not us initiating what God did God chose to show up when God chose to show up right and we went oh shocked shock and awe in a sense of wow look at what God is doing but when we prayed ahead of time it was in response to what God had already done in those eight other revivals since 1900 prior to this ninth one in February God was already moving God was already moving we responded said God we want more of this and God responded in God’s own timing God is constantly at work and just think about the students who maybe Asbury University wasn’t their first choice but they ended up in Asbury University they didn’t want to go to Chapel that day they kind of felt compelled and then the Holy Spirit pours forth and they gave their life to Christ and they they handed over their sins to God in Repentance and they’ve been forever transformed that’s real practical outworking of provenian Grace and it is it is beautiful all right so my top favorite things then I’ll hand the microphone over to somebody else because I think I’m I’m out my 10 minutes here but since I’ve talked about some of these things here so here’s my top favorite things about provenian Grace is I was thinking about this last night before I went to bed how do you summarize all of this beautiful Doctrine first of all it appoints to the Abundant love of God it is for all people no limits and again scripture repeatedly uses this language of the abundance of God it’s not well there’s just enough Grace for you to sneak into heaven it’s abundant more than you can ask or imagine that’s beautiful number two it takes human responsibility seriously God does call us to repent God calls us to turn away from our sins it is relational it really does take human responsibility seriously number three it points to the reliability of scripture when God says all God means all if if Jesus has died for the sins of the whole world it’s not just the elect it’s for the whole world the whole world has opportunity to respond that’s beautiful number four it explains the complexity the complex nature of the world and so this discussion of the reformers talking about common Grace and there’s a lot of overlap with common grace and provenient grace but it does help us to explain if we have a doctrine of the complete sinfulness of humanity then why is there good in the world why is there good in the world it’s because God’s already at work in the world because God put some restraints on the sinfulness of the world but God is also working in human beings to respond and sometimes we’re responding to that grace before we even know what’s going on God is at work to make things better that’s a good hopeful beautiful thing that explains the complexity of the world and then the last one is kind of going back to what I said at first it takes sin seriously we need to take sin seriously we are not worthy to approach the Living Lord on our own but because of God’s love because of God’s love going all the way back to number one that abundant love of God even though we take sin seriously provenient Grace tells us of God’s great love what a beautiful thing we can still take sin seriously and know that we are redeemed not because of us but because of who God is and that’ll preach my friends that’ll preach final quote and he brings this out I forget what page but Dr Shelton says God is the loving genius behind the Plan of Salvation love that phrase God is the loving genius it ain’t about us it’s about who God is what a wonderful wonderful understanding that we are given through pervenient Grace thank you [Applause] next is Dr Chris Bounds Chris Bounds just moved here from um Marion Indiana Indiana Wesleyan University now professor of theology at Asbury Theological Seminary he is on the board of directors for OMS the board of directors and chairs our board at the Francis Asbury Society and he’s on the board of directors for good news we’re very happy that you’re here with us not just for today we’re happy that you’re in Wilmore come and share with us Dr bounce hopefully I’m speaking loud enough that you can hear me I’m not going to hold the mic one of the reasons why am I going to hold the mic is because I have rotator cuff issues actually holding it is uh difficult on my shoulders I want to thank uh Dr Shelton for his outstanding presentation and even more importantly his outstanding book on convenient Grace so appreciative of Dr Suzanne Nicholson’s discussion of prevening price and her response to it and I’ve been asked to come and to speak about this more from a theological perspective and even more particularly from the perspective of James arminius and I think in order to do that it might be helpful for me to talk about really three models or three paradigms three different understandings of prevenient Grace that exists within Protestant Christianity uh so we could talk about convenient Grace but who’s convenient Grace and so for a moment I want to talk about three different models three different understandings that have real implications about the experience of Salvation and the experience of sanctification so the first one is actually mentioned by Brian Shelton and that has to do the understanding of convenient Grace that was articulated by Augustine who in many ways is the father of the reformed tradition so Augustine actually uses the language of prevenient Grace to talk about that wooing drawing convicting convincing Grace that is given to the elect and prevenient Grace from Augustine’s perspective is given to those whom God has determined from all of eternity who will be saved and they are given prevenient Grace that irresistibly draws them to repentance and faith in Christ Augustine’s understanding and more reformed understanding of previously if you read reformed theologians you will at times and places see them use the language of previewing Christ the grace that precedes the experience of regeneration in New Birth the augustinian paradigm on the other end of the spectrum uh of the third view I’m not going to give you the second quite yet but on the third view is of understand Christ that you said at least a particular Nazarene Theologian by the name of am Hills am Hills and this understanding of prevenient Grace is by far the most robust understanding of prevenient Grace uh this understanding of redeemed Grace is God taking the initiative as a result of original sin as a result of total depravity very augustinian in the sense that we come at this life spiritually dead dead to God dead and sin we have no internal capacities whatsoever to contribute in the work of Salvation so how does God respond to that God responds by giving prevenient Grace to all but this convenient Grace enables every human being to be able to recognize the truth of the Gospel and once they recognize the truth of the Gospel this convenient Grace that is given to all enables them to be able to repent and to exercise saving faith in Christ what’s important here for am Health’s perspective from this more robust understanding of redeemed Grace is that with this premium Grace weakened this up once we have an understanding we can decide when we’re saved because we have the power within ourselves as a result of this prevenient grace that is given to all we have the ability to repent and believe the gospel now I say this and it’s important to recognize because you’re going to see this is going to contrast from this middle position that I’m going to say then in many ways this is our common understanding of revenant Grace most even Wesleyan Armenians today believe that we have the power to sort of decide when we experience New Birth and it has ramifications for those of us who are westlings and believe in entire sanctification or Christian Perfection we have the ability to decide as a result of the previous that is given to all once we know and understand we have this power that is given to all to repent and believe we can decide that they are the moment that we are saved so you have this reformed augustinian understanding and proving Grace then you have this very robust understanding of convenient Grace now what I want to try to articulate is the Via media for those of you who are wrestling will be very familiar with that term the the weah media the Via media this sort of Middle Way approach now this is becomes important because it really is a different paradigm a different understanding of the experience of salvation so what is this middle way and so I’m going to use for a moment I’m going to use Jacob armenius’s understanding of prevenient Grace now Jacob arminius uh like Augustine and even with those who are who come from a more robust a model of convenient Grace uh believes in total depravity as a result of the Fall we are dead to God dead in sin we have absolutely nothing to contribute to the work of salvation but what arminius believed what arminius belief is that God responds to this predicament by giving to us prevenient Grace but what is prevenient Grace on its most basic level and armenius would talk about prevenient Grace as uh twofold in nature uh first he would say that there was trevening prevented Grace preceding Grace that would come and arminius believed that there’d be times and places in our lives that God would come and work in US proceeding prevenient Grace and this is something that God does monogistically in other words we can’t control it we can’t determine it God works as Dr Nicholson mentioned earlier God works however God wants to work and so God decides in any given moment how God wants to work so God comes in preceding prevenient Grace working in our lives however God besides God wants to work in our lives so for being in Christ first of all is there is this preceding Grace sometimes our minis will call it the knocking Grace in our lives and again sometimes when we think about Grace we tend to think of it someone like someone like a commodity a thing but uh John Wesley and in many ways arminius understood and uh I like uh what Dr Shelton said a Divine Act I would call Grace is nothing more nothing less than the work of God God working for us God working in us and God working through us at any given moment we cannot determine how God wants to work for us we can’t determine how God wants to work in us we can’t determine how God wants to work through us but God sovereignly modernistically comes and worse and preceding Grace this is preceding Grace and it enables us to actually be more diploma we can receive God’s grace so this preceding Grace is a restoration within our lives for us to be worked upon or worked in and then second is a part of grieving your grace for um arminius is um what uh What uh armenius calls following or subsequent race subsequent Grace and so arminius uh believe it wants this grace of God comes it’s this preceding Grace when this Grace comes we’re able to receive it and then through this following or substantial race uh we’re able to either resist what God is trying to do for us in that moment or we can embrace it we can cooperate or resist but we can’t determine it now why does this become important this becomes incredibly important just by the way uh armenius Christine Grace following Grace uh Wesley in his uh treatment is going to put both of these under convenient Grace so what is Sean Wesley’s understanding of pervening Grace bare minimum whatever else foreign Grace is bare minimum prevented Grace is the restoration of our capacity to be worked upon by God it’s a restoration of our capacity and then second of all it is our restoration of an exercise of will to either cooperate or resist what God is doing in any given moment but again we can’t determine what that is so Grace now this becomes important because Armenians and Wesley would say we don’t have the power we don’t have the ability to see the truth of the Gospel and last the Holy Spirit comes and illuminates that to us and then as the spirit comes in and illuminates the gospel to us we can either choose to resist or we can cooperate with it the same thing in regard to I’ll use the language of Wesley Evangelical repentance you and I don’t have the ability to repent of our sins not in any Evangelical sense of repentance we can only repent of our sins when the spirit of God when God seeks to create and bring into our lives repentance and then we can either choose to cooperate with that work or we can choose to resist that work same thing in regards to saving faith you and I can’t believe the gospel truly believe not believe in the sense that Wesley talks about oh yes you might be able to believe in one sense that yes God was in Christ reconciling the world to him but to believe in the very depths of your soul that Christ came into the world to redeem you to redeem you and so this is the reason why when you read John Wesley he talks about seeking he talks about placing yourselves in the means of Grace until God comes but this prevented Grace bare minimum uh it it can’t do anything until more grace cops what it does bare minimally is it empowers us to be able to receive God’s grace and to choose to either resist or to cooperate with it this is the reason why if you read carefully The Armenian magazine which Wesley published for 20 years and in the 20 years he published The Armenian magazine there were 500 testimonies within the Armenian magazines but there were three types of testimonies there were the testimonies to what Wesley called Awakening there were testimonies to conversion and there were testimonies to entire sanctification but what’s interesting there was a study that was done at Cambridge University dissertation that noted in these 500 or so testimonies that there was an average period of time between when one was spiritually awakened and one experienced New Birth an average of two years we don’t have a paradigm today that has that understanding of salvation two years and then the same dissertation said that between the experience of uh conversion and entire sanctification or Christian Perfection was an average of can’t remember four or six years it’s a very different paradigm now one last word that I will say again just try to help us understand bare minimum well what is this redeem of course you can say that proven to Grace is all the grace that precedes the experience of salvation but in many ways and this is true for our Menace and to a certain extent for John Wesley this bare minimum will prevent the grace that is given all which is the restoration of our capacity to receive Grace when we can’t determine in any given moment that Grace that God wants to give to us but then the ability to be able to cooperate or resist it bare metal this grace that is given to all again doesn’t enable us to necessarily determine how God wants to work and move in our lives I think one implication of this and thinking about this is in this understanding of our Menace and this understanding of John Wesley is we have to trust God his wisdom in his love and please hear me make no mistake God is always working for us and in us but again we can’t determine what that is we can only Embrace or resist so today I cannot determine how God wants to work for me or in me all I can do is have this posture as I go throughout of this day seeking to embrace and not resist what is uh being what is being done so all I want to make us aware of is there are three different paradigms understandings of creeping Grace and it does have implications in life that I’m going to wait too long here but let me draw that one implication here this understanding of convenient Grace which by the way is not any different for those of you who know theology it’s not much different than City pelagianism really is this idea we’re not spiritually dead we’ve got to be saved we’ve got to be redeemed we’ve got to be our sins are forgiven but their vestiges enough vestiges of the image of God that we can see the truth of the Gospel that we can repent and we can we can believe and we can determine but here’s what happens often if we’re not careful between this robust understanding briefing and more limited understanding of your major Grace is all too often a Salvation becomes some sort of transactional occurrence some sort of legal or business transaction I understand the truth of God I make a decision about these propositional ideas about God about the truth of the gospel and I sign up for it and so what I’m engaging with are ideas propositions intrudes about God but in armeniuses and Wesley’s theology at the heart of theology is in Brian Dr Shelton put this for it’s a personal encounter with God you are meeting God he is the one who is coming to you not an idea not a proposition he is coming to you and saying come follow me he is the one who is saying arise come forth from your grave and so it’s a far more interpersonal rather than a transactional understanding of salvation but again the last thing that I would say from the part of this is that again we have this desire to want to say this Crossing everything we would like for it to be more transactional in nature but we have to learn to trust God and trust him in this work of Salvation and this is the reason why Wesley if you read him has a high view of conversion Wesley believes that when we are truly converted and Born Again The Power of sin is broken in US most of us we have to be honest when we think about conversion we place a very low bar of what it is that is because from an Armenian and a Wesleyan perspective salvation is a genuine Encounter With God all right I’ve spoken too much anyway I just want to at least make aware of these three different paradigms that are out there and some of these paradigms happen to be operating in our Wesleyan Armenian tradition we want to make a distinction between Wesley arminius’s understanding of it and sort of this more robust I think a more common idea of pregame Grace that exists among us today thank you [Applause] thank you foreign panelist is is Bill Pierce and we at the Francis Asbury Society are very happy to introduce our new president to you he came on July the 1st and uh he is a PhD candidate at Eastern University in organizational management so that means he will soon be Dr Bill um but actually since I’ve been an adult I’ve seen a lot of doctor bills and um they’re all alike they always want me to send in money so that’s why he’s elected to be our president he raising money for FAS but he does much more than that he is setting a leadership standard for us and the interesting thing in his journey is he started out as a student at the Seminary as an evangelist he was with a group called The what was it the Francis Asbury Society wasn’t it and so he’s had a career as an evangelist as a pastor as a church consultant and now he comes with that rich experience as well as educational background come and share with us from your perspective foreign well let’s hope I’m not a doctor’s bill thank you Vic uh thank you for your your work and your leadership and putting all of this together Brian thank you for your your wonderful presentation um as the new president here at FAS it’s important to me to establish a place somewhere along the theological Spectrum of many of you in this room and and the institutions here that that we value so much as well as in our and Wesleyan world but I recognize that my real contribution is probably that and and needs to be that of a practical Theologian 20 years in pastoral Ministry and and a number of years more more recently in working with congregations and in vitality and and congregational development I will tell you that I was raised Presbyterian and when my Presbyterian friends ask me now why I’m not one any longer I say it was predestined to be so I’ll leave it at that I’ll tell you a quick personal story to lead into to my personal perspective on proven your grace when I was uh growing up in Bessemer Alabama just outside of Birmingham my mother who was a teacher and my dad who was a lawyer did not permit me to watch television at night during the school week which I consider to be very unfair I’m now very thankful for that because it established some other disciplines in my life one of which was reading and another of which was learning how to um beat the system in order to listen to the Atlanta Braves baseball games every evening between April and in October now if you know anything about the Atlanta Braves you know in the 1970s they were awful I have earned the right to be a brave sin today and I thought my parents did not know that I would go to bed early at night they knew I went to bed early but I I thought they didn’t know that in fact I had taken my transistor radio do you remember those with an ear plug and a scorebook and a flashlight and pin to get underneath the covers and score the Atlanta Braves baseball games I discovered that my father knew one morning when I dragged myself to The Breakfast Table in a not very good mood and he looked at me and he said Son the Braves must be on the west coast this week but in fact they were I had I had scored the Braves Padres game from San Diego the night before and the Giants and Dodgers before that so I was a little a little lost on sleep now the point of all of that is that that is one part of God’s Act of provenia Grace in my life because as I began to to become under the conviction of the Holy Spirit as a regular Church attender second row from the front on the left every Sunday morning in our Presbyterian church and as a an active member and leader in our youth group but began to come under conviction of the holy spirit that this was not adequate for salvation and that God had something he wanted to do in my life which was initiated oh not two years before Chris but about six months before my actual conversion experience with my mother who was taking class in the four spiritual laws sitting me down in the breakfast room of our home and taking me through that process now there was no way that a 15 year old is going to give his mother any credit in his conversion experience but it did launch that conscious awareness of God’s work within me and so even though it was during baseball season the first month of the baseball season because my date of conversion is May the 4th 1975. I would instead of taking my transistor radio to bed I took my my green hardback Living Bible underneath my covers with my flashlight to bed and on more than one occasion during those weeks and months leading to the series of Revival services at which I responded on that night of May the 4th and walked the aisle to give my life to Christ God was working deeply in me you know many of those occasions I would roll out of my bed onto the floor praying for God to please relieve this burden of my soul and let me know that I was saved now from that experience um I I bring to you a pastoral application I see our brother who was here from Winchester I did my supervised Ministry at Winchester First Methodist Church with Harold Reynolds Howard Reynolds who was the pastor there and um he was that was a wonderful experience for me we now are having the opportunity to be a part of the preparation of mdiv students here at Asbury Seminary through being a mentoring organization as well at FAS and we’re very excited about that but I need to tell you as a pastor when it came time for confirmation classes I would always get a pit I mean a a knot in the pit of my stomach a pit in the not of my stomach as those days and weeks would be approaching because there was always a fundamental question for me which was how does one schedule the work of the Holy Spirit or convenient Grace for six weeks before Easter now that’s a question you don’t ask out loud as a pastor ordained in the United Methodist Church but I began to study this concept of confirmation how did it come to be and how had it come to be applied uh the the Sacrament of Confirmation was based upon some scriptures particularly out of the book of Acts where there is reference made to the laying on of hands sometime in the early church when people were coming under the the convicting work of convenient Grace and we’re coming to Christ in faith as adults the practice of confirmation was extended immediately after conversion and after baptism so an adult would be converted having been preceded or prevented beforehand of course they would be converted they would be baptized and then they would be confirmed in the tenets of the faith and welcomed in to the membership of the life of the church now in the Middle Ages this all changed a little bit because in the Middle Ages the church was in a dark period where there were not nearly as many adult conversions and the church faced a bit of what I would call a sustainability crisis and I’m sure there were theologians that would that would argue this and and that that would be fine I’m coming from the perspective of of organizational leadership and organizational development but the church faced an obvious sustainability crisis and began to co-opt Youth and children and infants into this Ordo saludus and we had produced what became our current model or practice of infant baptism confirmation and then membership into the life of the church but again this was all what created that that uh that lump in the bit of my stomach now we know that the Church of England dropped confirmation as a Sacrament but the Methodist discipline restored confirmation as one of the five lesser sacraments Now what is my point in all of this my point in all of this is from an organizational dynamic it is true that in times of change and transition and in times of of significant change in transition organizations often don’t go far enough to establish their new identity and to live out the new ethos which brings them into being this quite frankly is one of my concerns with the global Methodist Church we have an amazing opportunity to take take perhaps some farther steps and to create additional separation from the institutions and organizations which have helped contribute to give us birth and the question is still yet remaining to be seen is will we go far enough in doing that or will we simply carry the institutional germ with us and so this is much of what unfortunately in my opinion Mr Wesley did coming from the Anglican tradition the Anglican Church in England when he created the Methodist movement and when the early disciplines were written there was not a distinction made completely enough with regard to what is our Theology of Salvation relative to confirmation now this is the Practical side of this one I can I hope we can talk and debate a little bit about this afternoon after lunch because I think it it is a significant one especially when we consider that our um our disciplines and our liturgies around this this Sacrament of Confirmation or the Lesser Sacrament of Confirmation uh refers to the verses in John 3 and verse 5 when Jesus is having a conversation with Nicodemus who wonders how can a man be born again when he is old and Jesus says what to him unless one is born of the water and the spirit they cannot inherit the kingdom of God but then he goes in the very next verse 6 and he says flesh gives birth to flesh but the spirit gives birth to Spirit is Jesus reference to Nicodemus in John 3 in chapter 5. to represent the water of institutional baptism or is it to reflect the water of physical birth it seems that Jesus clarifies that in John chapter 3 verses 5 and 6 which leaves us with an operational conundrum when it comes to the Ordo saludus and how we as pastors Pastor theologians and those who are placed in positions of being able to help our congregants understand the nature of Salvation from convenient grace through Saving Grace justifying Grace sanctifying Grace how do we help our congregants understand the work and the role of the holy spirit so that we don’t institutionalize salvation in a way that instead of produces those who were born of the spirit produces those who are spiritually stillborn by the church that’s my question maybe we can talk about it a little more this afternoon thank you all right Brian this is the hot seat that’s where you’re sitting hey while we’re just getting back in order I was interested that Dr bounds mentioned all of those testimonies that Wesley had published in the Armenian magazine do you remember the reference to calls to preach salvation sanctification um 500 some testimonies would you like to read some of those I went upstairs and we just happened to have Wesley’s veterans on sale this is about 50 of those testimonies out of the Armenian magazine this is our last set whoever raises their hand first I’ll hand it to you and you can settle up with Kathy and if you want to set she’ll order you one um I didn’t know this was going to come up and I just thought I’d make you aware that many of those testimonies were collected you wouldn’t know by the title that that’s what these are but I’ll just set these over here out of the way if anybody would like to look at them now for the next hour I will just attempt to moderate a discussion between Dr Shelton and the other three panelists and we’ll try to keep things moving along but I think a good place for us to begin is where we left off before our lunch break and uh Bill had shared with us his concern from from a church Evangelistic standpoint um how do we disciple people who are really not yet saved and that’s a short version of your concern but you had made a statement that you would like to see how the panel responded to that and without another 15-minute description of you didn’t take 15 minutes I could but but if we can just pick up at that point you may or may not have a comment um and so we’ve got two mics that we need to use just for recording purposes don’t feel like you’re pressured to say something but if you would like to respond um let’s just pick up where we left off yeah and let me let me clarify you know that Vic I think the the question the question I have is what what right do we have and and how do we depending on our response to that how do we then moderate our process of introducing people to Christ in the local church so that we are in step with the pervenient work of the Holy Spirit and not institutionalizing faith in a way that produces stillborn church members instead of born-again Believers and and I think that’s that’s the fundamental heart of my question I’ll go ahead and jump in so I think part of that is is just taking up Wesley’s means of Grace right if we are preaching the gospel if we are discipling people not necessarily with Pat programs but with helping them to get into scripture reading scripture understanding scripture prayer taking the Eucharist regularly as Wesley recommended right all of these kinds of things God is forming us through those activities and so we certainly should be trusting God’s grace in the midst of that if we have people who are questioning they’re not sure they’re sort of halfway there we have concerns certainly we should be praying for them but but you know I think it’s a matter of of doing the things that we have been called to do as as Believers to allow the means of Grace to work God is going to work through those and then we just follow the spirits leading to adoption I want to reframe and reinforce the question by a text question I got from someone who had to leave and that is this would you say that by loving and serving non-believers we can be agents of pravinian Grace carrying the presence of Jesus coming to them and kindling a desire in them for something beyond that experience was how she framed it I think an important distinction could be made should be made but not at first I think generally the answer to that is yes disciple making right isn’t the program it is the result of the program to speak that way but in this process we need to remember that God and God’s work is the means by which people come to believe or get can know him believe more fully sometimes when we talk about being our own agents on behalf of God it can be almost self-reinforcing uh going back to what you were describing some programs in the church the outcome is there so I would say that rather than say we are pravinia Grace God can use us in the life of people as the spirit is working the prevenient grace so we become agents for God we’re not the proxy of God yeah I think um you’re coming again from our Armenian classical Wesleyan uh view in regard to the understanding of prevenient Grace I’ll tell you as a pastor uh as a professor as an evangelist and I’m someone actively preaching in churches and calling people to Salvation calling people to experience entire sanctification that um I I must admit early on in my Christian Life I was probably I fell into the am Hills or I was probably just a good semi-palladian and so that I was primarily relying upon my ability to communicate my ability to convince my ability to woo and draw someone so I was always thinking when someone didn’t pray the sinner’s prayer or someone didn’t come to to Christianity it was my fault because it primarily relied upon me whereas in in Wesley’s understanding and what I would call more of a true semi-augustinian uh perspective and the understanding of convenient Grace and to understand that even our very thoughts of God uh our very desire for God uh is a result of Grace already being at work uh in our lives and so that the work of convicting and convincing wooing and drawing uh the uh of imparting repentance and Reporting saving Faith isn’t my work at all my job is to share the gospel it’s the spirit’s work to woo and draw convict convince and and to impart to repentance and and saving Faith to people’s lives and so that was incredibly liberating for me uh as a pastor that’s incredibly liberating to me as a um as a as a teacher uh even in in the classroom as an evangelist and so one of the things that I I do now is you you’ve all experienced this before in one way or another you’ve shared the gospel with someone it’s like talking to a brick wall yeah yeah and there’s not anything happening at all now please hear me I do believe that God can be and is at work in the midst of that but it seems to be in very minimal ways well we’ve all experienced those times and places where we’ve shared the gospel and immediately we can see that something is at work and it’s not you and it’s not the person that you’re sharing with but the holy spirit of God has fallen if I can use that that language and that the spirit is at work in that moment and when I as a pastor or as an evangelist or as a teacher as a professor see that taking place in the lives of people it is encouraging and exhorting them to embrace to not resist what God is wanting to do in their lives in that moment and so uh Again part of even working uh as someone who gives altar calls and I I give altar calls what what I try to do though in the altar calls is to help people to recognize what is God saying to you what is God doing and you Embrace that don’t resist it and so behind all of this is again uh I love when people pray the sinner’s prayer they make a public profession of faith in Christ or baptized and they’re changed and transformed I work with all too many people who’ve done everything they’ve been told to do and yet they still have serious doubts they still wonder whether or not God truly loves them they have doubts they haven’t experienced any real change or transformation in their lives and so it’s it’s it’s trying to find a theology that can help me as a pastor guide in the midst of situations like that well thanks Chris and um let me ask okay I was just going to ask Dr Shelton um since you went first and you’ve had three responses what would you like to respond to and it may be the most immediate or we may want to move on to another question but I want to give you the Liberty to respond to what Suzanne Chris or Bill shared previously yes uh I can say if I can respond generally I have a list I know that um just to affirm a few things in particular um I thought that Sue mentioned what Chris followed up on Augustine in his confessions particularly models a testimony of God’s proving Grace right this is Augustine’s spiritual journey first Christian autobiography history says as he’s describing his journey through platonism of various philosophical schools eventually arriving to Christ all preceded by his his adolescent Hood if you know what I mean that Augustine is is constantly looking to heaven and commenting about how God was working in that process so I think I was glad they mentioned that Augustine’s confessions illustrates preventing Grace in one’s life after conversion um I would say to sue yes not only do some reformed thinkers seem to dichotomize Biblical teaching or biblical thought versus logical thought I went to a reformed Seminary I actually had a systematic Professor one time say we need to be faithful to the Bible the Bible speaks of God predestining assuming that it must be of the individual and that my professor said the calvinist seeks to be biblical The Armenian seeks to be logical they can have logic Our God’s a god of mystery we’ll take the Bible which is really just through great degree a slant which was part of the inspiration even there of the writing um of the book and then on when Dr bounds was talking about this um you know he could have used another Paradigm that is contained in the book and is in the scholarship and that is objective versus subjective pervenient Grace objective might be this overarching work of God in which all are allowed ever since Adam going to the the blood of goats and Bulls in the Old Testament they did these sacrifices but that blood didn’t actually save Hebrews says it was Jesus in the future coming back if you will that’s objective subjective is this preceding and the subsequential where God comes the individual it says think about me or listen to this podcast and then you invite this friend to come to church when just the perfect sermon has to be okay so objective versus subjective that a most universal versus individual that’s a whole nother way to do it and then to affirm a couple things Bill said just if nothing else to realize there is a pastoral Dimension to this and not just pastoral even denominational ecclesiological if I had one more kudos to give it would be to three who drove from West Virginia today for this Symposium um pastors all uh because yeah this this is of relevance and it should be of interest um this Society right has events for pastors training can pastors continuing education a tremendous Enterprise but the people in the Pulpit are thinking about these things um some may have come from a Baptist or Presbyterian background whether it’s just a different perspective on God’s work in Salvation or these questions arise because they um they because things are red but in all of this is part of our ministry part of our disciple making and in the process not all questions are answered on the side of Glory so part of this is the temporal the ongoing Suzanne I think you may have used the short version of your notes instead of the long version what do you wish you had had time to say sort of wove a bunch of things in there kind of piecemeal oh so that’s a good question what do I wish I had time to say there’s so much in the book I think I would have liked to have drawn just more more from the book I had more quotes that were sort of sort of in there that I think were really highly informative um so without sort of delving without delving back into my notes and giving another lecture I think um just the the good Arc and overview of of the book with giving a Biblical understanding sort of the Systematic Theology really kind of pushing back with where where Calvinism sort of pushes against arminianism and sort of giving a defense and looking at the Practical it’s such a good overview I know I said it at the beginning but I just think um you know it’s really a book worth reading and and I don’t know of any other treatment of of this to to this extent but again I’m a biblical studies person rather than a theologian but but I think you know this is this is very important and it’s not something I think one of the things I’m struck by is we talk about it in our Biblical theological circles but we don’t necessarily talk about it in church like I can’t remember when’s the last time I heard somebody talk about provenian Grace in church now maybe in Wilmar I have a few times because it’s Wilmore it’s an academic crowd but but this is so foundational to our Wesleyan understanding and yet I’m not sure that we actually teach enough about it in our churches so so maybe it’s kind of some of those other I just think there’s a lot of practical things that we could we could tease out of this well thank you and and to talk practical um ideas here from a pastoral standpoint what do we need to know about the Theology of prevenia Grace in other words what should we be looking for we may go we may go away defeated when we actually didn’t pick up the signs that the Holy Spirit was at work we may be so anxious to sort of say I got another Soul saved that we walk away defeated when we should be encouraged so practically speaking what does it look like what should it’s like a doctor what symptoms are you looking for and let me just start with Bill and we can come back around the table but to the degree we can make a master list what what are the symptoms that God is at work well I think Chris addressed some of that earlier there’s hunger obviously the questions that are that are being asked um you know as a as a communicator as you’re connecting with the the people that you’re speaking with not to but with even if it’s monological if you’re sensitive to read the signs you can see the work of the holy spirit’s conviction on people it might be the way they fidget it might be the way they Lean Forward and uh and really tune in when typically they may not do that and and I think again the sensitivity of the pastor or the Evangelist or or whoever the individual is the teacher in the classroom to step into those moments with individuals when you sense that and ask the kind of leading follow-up and open-ended questions to give people first a voice and an opportunity to articulate what’s going on before we assume or we give them the formula or we or we pray the prayer but to give them that opportunity and then respond accordingly now from a from a process standpoint as a pastor I’ll tell you one of the ways that that I addressed the heartburn that I would have around running the Salvation assembly line from from and I don’t mean any disrespect in that I I that that’s the way I I saw it both biblically and and theologically in running that that sort of church assembly line to Salvation um is we did we worked on both ends of this in recognition of God’s pervenient grace one was I would instruct our children’s ministers to produce experiences for kids at key points of transition that were similar to confirmation classes I didn’t want kids to show up at 12 years of age and go through six weeks of Sunday nights and say yes at the end because everybody else was right now obviously we’re working within a denominational policy so we had to be sensitive to that so we wanted to create these these micro experiences for people at say transition second to third grade and then maybe transition fourth to fifth grade until they got to the to the confirmation experience the other thing is we wanted to be very intentional about shaping the confirmation experience to where we were not simply giving information to students we were giving them opportunity for experience but then on the back side of it I would say to each one we are not going to have a confirmation Sunday where we stand all of you up at one time saying yes because everybody else is when the confirmation experience is complete you will then as you sense the Holy Spirit working in your heart indicate when you’re ready to make that commitment and we will have that experience and celebration of you or several of you in that given time now that was stretching a bit when it comes to United Methodist polity but we were able to to get away with it and and because we we weren’t neglecting we weren’t just taking the kids through a process and saying when we got to the end either you’re all in or saying well if you get around to it later let us know it was intentional um and it wasn’t perfect but it was intentional yeah I think actually in the history of Christianity there there are some helpful ideas and again I think especially come from our Wesleyan perspective what we’re interested in is a and this is what bill was pointing us towards is a genuine experience of conversion a genuine experience of entire sanctification and not settling for something less than the genuine experience of of those things and I think because we have become so transactional in the way that we view salvation um that we’re willing to call things well you’ve been born again you have become a Christian when in fact maybe that hasn’t really taken place so all of this to say is Augustine would talk about that often before there is birth is there’s a conception and I think what many people are experiencing in the church is the work of God it is the work of the Holy Spirit through preventing but what’s taking place is not yet a birth but it is a conception that’s the language that Augustine would use I find that to be very helpful Wesley would talk about Awakening not new birth or entire sanctification so he was interested in hearing people’s experiences of Awakening and he would call it Awakening and then experience of New Birth and he would distinguish New Birth from Awakening and then of course the entire segregation from from from New Birth so giving some language that in fact does describe what in fact God is doing but what there is yet to be done and to be experienced in the life of a person I was right thinking the next article where I’ll give a different opinion than no just kidding um no but if you’re wondering about mystery if I could just comment of all the mysteries in life if you’re wondering why we’re talking into microphones when there is no speakers it is in fact for the recording and for those at a distance on Zoom yeah yeah I guess as I’m thinking about this we have this tension between on the one hand you know if we’re giving an altar call we want people to come to the altar we want to see what God is doing in this moment but also keeping in mind that it’s a process I think sometimes in the Evangelical world it’s for spiritual laws give your heart to Jesus boom done right and and to to recognize that that this is a process and that somebody might come to the Altar and and yet they’re not really quite there yet or there’s somebody who’s sitting in the seat who doesn’t feel comfortable coming forward but they are there um and and sometimes I think as as preachers we want to we want to know that our words have effect right that the spirit’s working that God’s doing something in this otherwise it’s sort of like have I wasted my time today you know we want to know that God is doing something um so I think sometimes it’s it’s that recognizing the process and that even though we’re basically just a we’re like a chain we’re like a link in a long chain right and so so God has been preparing up to this point we’re in a moment that God is doing more preparing and then there’s more that’s coming after that so on those Sundays when you preach a sermon and it it flops I mean I can remember one time I preached the sermon there was just this deadness in the room and I just thought what happened like I prepared I thought this was great I was really excited about it like they were crickets when I was preaching I’m like what’s going on here you know and then other times when it’s like so busy with pastoral care in the week before I pulled out an old sermon and preached it and it was one of the best responses I’d ever had which really clearly told me it’s the Holy Spirit that’s doing this it ain’t me right um but so I think that’s part of what we have to recognize is that sometimes we are part of a process we’re looking for a moment and yet there’s this this lengthier process and sometimes we need to be okay with that tension um to be able to say God’s at work in these people’s lives so we have to trust God to kind of carry on beyond that moment where we’re making the altar call and yet we also need to give opportunity for God to meet people where they’re at so through the discipleship opportunities that we give the classes that we we set up whether it’s confirmation classes or something else I think about for example Billy Graham Crusades he always had an advanced team that went out and worked with churches so that they had teams of people who are ready to receive people who’ve given their lives to Christ so that they can be discipled it’s not just about that moment of saying yes to Christ but it’s taking them further discipling them helping them to under stand how God is at work in their lives and so I think we need to sort of have both of those things give those moments where things can happen but also have those longer processes where God is still at work and and living in the tension can be difficult but I think that we need to do both of those things I want to transition to where we bring all of you into the discussion and we’re going to let the person who is tuned in from the furtherest location ask the first question and so this comes from uh Kenya uh this is Russ Frazier I say Dr Shelton often I have heard Christians testifying to the work of divine prevenient grace it seems very individualistic in my studies I think that the early methodists placed greater emphasis on the corporate work of prevenient Grace do you find evidence of a corporate aspect of prevenient Grace that was directed to you but the rest of you will have a chance to follow up and I know that catches you just with that much time to process but go ahead and give what kind of a response you’d like to thank you from Kenya it is a good question and it does go to our perception of this overall process right when we think about our own salvation we have our testimony right maybe even in an evangelism Clinic we might write it out and even practice with a colleague um that could that can be good but we tend to describe history as we experience it or as we imagine it in terms of causes and effects realizing of course that we could be leaving out an important Voice or important influence a podcast or a book or another sermon that that shaped us so also the work of God right there’s all these complexities there’s all these forces I would say part of this is answered by that subjective versus objective um we can see in our own testimony our own lives and Reflections God individually working on us but if he worked on me that way worked on Chris that way ensue that way and then there’s Bill and then there’s Vic and then there’s all of us you realize that there is a corporate and Universal thing happening one by one so we can describe this as something overarching at least right there when we aggregate into a whole but still there is a legal aspect of the atoning aspect that we still haven’t answered and that is the fact that from Adam’s fall Cain and Abel needed Grace Adam and Eve needed Grace after being booted from the garden a reformed tradition actually speaks about the this whole period as Covenant of Grace uh even up to today contrast that this is this is Extreme language that Adam and Eve before the fall were in a covenant of Works our God is a god of good works but from then on it’s just constantly been Grace that has been the great prerequisite so as a result I think we do need to be able to speak about how God has in history been doing this work you can see it all individual but I think there’s also a place biblical biblical theology to see it as a whole even a one swoop effect amen Amen to that um what’s interesting to me is if you look at the Apostles Creed if you look at the Apostles Creed it’s not by accident that uh after the discussion of god father Son and Holy Spirit before there’s the discussion of salvation the Forgiveness of sins there is the discussion of the church and that’s not by accident actually for those of you who have read Tom Odin’s Systematic Theology he gets this wrong in a Systematic Theology in the way that he orders it he first talks about individual salvation and then he talks about the church but the Apostles Creed and historic Christianity has always begun with the church because the church is the saving and sanctifying community so that the church has been the community through which people experience Saving sanctifying Grace in their lives now please hear me John Wesley oftentimes in his accounts that we find in the Armenian magazine of the experience of conversion and the experience of entire segregation often happen while they’re alone but even being alone it’s not apart from the body because they’re a part of uh of class meetings and there are part societies as well and so even if we think about even my own life how I came to Christ there was a significant role that the church played in it and so again I just wanted to to say this from at least a historic Christian Perspective it is not by accident and the ordering of the Creed in the early Creeds the Nicene Creek that the first discussion is the church and then salvation and Odin actually misses that in his systematic theology that I was going to make that comment and another um just to back your point up Chris in Acts 2 41-47 where we have that great description of the day of Pentecost and and um what happened in the life of the church at Pentecost it says and there were 3 000 added to the church that day right so so the church exists as a Covenant Community prior to individual decision-making response I I would agree with that and of course the prevenient aspect of that is Israel and God’s work among Covenant Community in the Old Testament I’m actually thinking of an illustration and I’m not sure this necessarily goes to provide Grace but but again if all Grace is the same Grace then maybe this works so the story that I think it was Dwight Moody basically uh either he told the story we’re going to say it’s him because I’m my memory is fading um but that he went to a prisoner’s house who said that he was going to stop going to church anymore he didn’t need the church he could follow Christ on his own and so they were sitting in front of a fireplace where there were these wonderful burning coals heating heating this this cold house on a wintry day and it was all wonderful and so as he was trying to think of of how it was that he was going to convince this parishioner that um you know he needed he needed to be in the church for for his formation for for all these kinds of things he didn’t say work instead he went over to the fireplace he grabbed the tongs and he took out one pole and he set it on the Hearth and within a few minutes the one coal that had been so red and roaring went black while the rest of the coals were still alive and doing well and I think that’s a great illustration of our need to be in the body of Christ that God’s spirit is working through all of us in the body of Christ that we we form one another we I mean God does it but through us and and that we hold one another accountable and this is this is why class and man meetings were so important uh for Wesley because we’re we can’t do it on our own we need one another the whole body of Christ is is meant to be a communal aspect and God’s grace is working through that so it needs to be both our individual response to what God is doing but also the ways that we that God is working through the community and through US within Community to work to others to bring you guys into the discussion and at the risk of turning loose this microphone remember if we want to hear your life story we’ll buy the biography but but if you’ve got a quick question a succinct question we want to keep things moving who wants to ask the first question um if you were preaching a message and you were looking for an excellent illustration of an account a person not just a theological language like in Titus 2 11 but in a story that involved in person it would illustrate a robust uh understanding of of preventing Grace what what is an example or two that you would use American woman at the well I mean Jesus shows up and you know in that culture they’re not he’s not supposed to be talking to her because she’s a she’s a woman she’s a Samaritan all of that and Jesus says can I have a cup of water right and of course it starts off that whole conversation this in pretty much the entire chapter of John 4 with this long theological conversation but she did not instigate that conversation Jesus goes up to her you could talk about Zacchaeus yeah Zacchaeus runs up to the tree because he wants to see Jesus but everybody wants to see Jesus there’s a crowd there but Jesus says it in the language in Luke there is it is necessary for me to go to your house that is that Divine imperative right it is necessary for me to go to your house there’s lots of places in scripture and I think that’s one place I think Dr Shelton had some of these in in his book um I think the difficulty with narratives is it’s harder to say well this is this is an illustration of provenian Grace because you can interpret it in a number of different ways but I think there’s so many stories especially in the gospels and acts where Jesus approaches people you could even just say the calling of the disciples they’re just minding their business they’re sitting there you know mending the gnats by the the Sea of Galilee and Jesus approaches and says follow me and I will make you Fishers of people right and so you know there’s there’s some other background there they’ve probably heard Jesus preaching a little a bit so there’s you know there’s some things that have kind of prepared them for that moment right but ultimately Jesus is reaching out to them and they’ve got to choose to respond so I think there’s lots of stories if we have eyes to look for this kind of place where Jesus is reaching out to us or the spirit is reaching us out to us and then we can go oh we see God at work reaching out to each of us but we tend to not think about that when we’re interpreting these passages so I would encourage you all to look for those ways that that that God or Jesus is making that initiation um I was curious uh with somebody who makes the choice of Salvation they choose to like um with Grace are we not still the ones who make that choice and like if that’s so does that not then mean that we have an area where we can boast in our Salvation because we are the ones that made the choice and so that’s kind of just like what I’m wrestling with all this try a good question thank you all this triumphing of Grace on this day let’s make it clear that the grace is for the purpose of our participation so we shouldn’t pretend that uh yeah that there’s so much grace that I mean we want to be careful right not to brag about how we went to the altar did one for the Lord your welcome Heaven a type of effect that’s what we want to avoid um but yes absolutely um you could even speak of kind of two traditions of Christianity one of which is smaller and that would be what we’ve been calling reformer Calvinists today this would be that God’s sovereignty extends to everything so that even your free will is actually predestined sometimes the term the appearance of free will most of Christianity has not shared that view um in the East for example you even speak of synergism we don’t use that word quite so much here but it’s God and US cooperating Wesley loved this topic for a sermon on Philippians working out your salvation with fear and trembling because it’s God who’s at work in you you work it out it is God so yes thank you for recognizing the importance of grace but also there’s the importance of the response and not just that salvation that’s what sanctification is it’s surrendering more and yielding more and so yes we do have a part and that’s the way God seemed to have designed again Amen to what Brian has has shared and again I I found at least in my discussions and interactions with my reformed sisters and brothers in Christ there’s no answer I can give that is satisfactory to to them in regard to to that but it is important interesting enough with arminius arminius’s language was that even our response to Grace is an expression of Grace so our ability to cooperate our ability to resist in the moment that we do that is a work of Grace uh in in us and so uh there is a sense in which From arminius’s perspective and from from Wesley’s perspective even the cooperation that we play is uh enabled by Grace only made possible by Grace also I think it’s really important to keep in mind uh oftentimes when we think about our playing a role in in the work of Salvation we often or people mistakenly think that you know God does a hundred percent we don’t do a hundred percent and uh in that sort of our understanding of what takes place arminius goes so far as say the only thing we do in the work of Salvation that is also a gift of Grace is not to resist actually arminius doesn’t use the language of cooperation the only language that he uses is we don’t resist we don’t resist what God is doing in the moment thanks Denny I think I know where you’re going with that with that question um and I’ve thought about this in in connection with provenient Grace today I found out at 51 years of age I’m only 52 by the way that’s a joke but I found out at uh at 51 not too long ago a decade or so ago that though I had been raised Presbyterian came to Faith in a Presbyterian Church through a series of Revival services my family had never told me now my family was a family that had secrets so you have to understand that but my family had never told me that not only had there ever been another preacher in our lineage but no one ever told me there’d ever been another Methodist in my family so when I was called to preach at 16 almost 17 I was led to believe I was the only preacher the family had ever known and uh when I joined the Methodist Church in my early 20s there was never any reference to there being a previous Methodist in my family history I found out through a very unusual set of circumstances that in 51 while I was living in Illinois doing a graduate degree another graduate degree uh in a place that I I had I had reached a day where I said Lord why have you brought me to this place I’m from Alabama I’m living in Illinois why am I here I was homesick Kim and I missed our grandchildren well within literally a week of my uttering that complaint I found out by accident someone brought the information to me unrelated to that prayer or that comment that my grandfather’s great-grandfather had been one of the earliest Methodist circuit riders in America he was called the wild Yankee his name was David Chamberlain he was from Vermont and he came to Illinois which was very fertile territory at the time to evangelize and to start the first college in the state of Illinois which came to be called McKendree College because David Chamberlain’s closest personal friend was Bishop William McKendree who gave his own property to be sold to give the proceeds to David Chamberlain my grandfather’s great-grandfather found the institution and and at a time in my life when I when I needed that’s a dramatic example but at a time in my life when I needed to be reminded that God’s use of me wasn’t over and that at some point I was going to see the dots connect that was a message that was very significant in in transforming my perspective about Ministry that God had been in work in my life in my life for five generations to bring me to a place where I am today and and that informs what I do every morning here the Francis Asbury Society yep yes uh Dr bounds back to you uh on the previous discussion and uh it’s it’s clear on your points of uh arminius and Hills and uh especially arminius talks about a personal encounter with with Jesus and otherwise Hills is more transactional and just one of those one point that you mentioned is not real clear to me because you said with am Hills he says we can decide when we are saved and also you said under arminius that following I mean after the preceding Grace we can either resist or Embrace so isn’t that the same as deciding when we are saved if we can decide to resist or embrace it’s a good question I I wasn’t very clear on that so my apologies there in regard to that I think here is uh here is the difference uh am Hills in that model of prevenian Grace uh the real issue is as a result of Grace that is given to all that minimum Grace that is given to all is automatically a restoration of our capacity to see and our capacity to repent and our capacity to exercise saving Faith so at any time that we understand the gospel it’s at that point that we have everything we we are capable in that moment to truly repent of our sins and to exercise saving faith in Christ it’s a very robust that’s what I call a very robust understanding of prevenient Grace arminius and Wesley’s doctrine of Premier Grace is um I don’t want to say more limited that’s that would not be the the word that I would want to say but it operates differently the convenient Grace that is given to all is simply a restoration of our capacity to receive Grace and to choose to cooperate with that Grace or resist that Grace but with that convenient Grace there’s not a unless more grace is given unless there is Grace that is given by God to bring illumination we can’t see the truth of the Gospel unless uh God by divine grace uh through the work of the Holy Spirit imparts and creates repentance in our lives we cannot repent we don’t have the ability to exercise saving faith in Christ unless the Holy Spirit unless God imparts that Grace so that’s the reason why from The Armenian and Western perspective we can’t be saved at any moment that we decide all we can do is cooperate with what God is doing for us and in Us in the moment and again uh to prevenient Grace and I’m talking about prevented Grace there’s a sense in which you could say prevent Grace is anything that precedes salvation but actually uh armenius believes this idea of receiving and cooperating uh happens throughout the Christian happens throughout life happens throughout the Christian the Christian Life we are only always responding uh by cooperation with the grace that God is making available at our life but again we can’t determine what that Grace is going to be so again to give an example of this and again I think we’ve experienced this at times and places in Ministry people who genuinely want to believe but can’t or people who genuinely uh want to walk in obedience to Christ but they don’t have the power or the wherewithal with which to to do so and again uh From arminius’s perspective as well as well as Wesleyan perspective the things that we tend to attribute to being our work repentance and faith for arminius and for Wesley that is actually the work of the Holy Spirit In Our Lives it is a gift of of Grace I hope that helps clarify some of that it’s an important question and point of clarity I mean the hog the mic I know I went before you that’s a wonderful response and Cade I want to is Cade right uh you’re from Alabama I hear awesome War Eagle or roll time oh no okay okay Harvest Church I’ve preached there quite a few times all right so I I love your question a little bit ago and what you’ve indicated you’re wrestling with and I don’t know that I’d like to address it this way directly in light of the conversation we’re having I would absolutely affirm theologically historically practically that without the agency of the Holy Spirit no response to God is is possible and and we do know that there are those who don’t respond when given the opportunity that are never given the opportunity again and that really needs to be a part of our Evangelistic appeal in those moments when people are are being stirred or moved but I would say that without some human agency and its agency quickened by the Holy Spirit but if if even our response is all of God it leads us to one of two conclusions either we must Embrace Calvinism or we must consider God terribly unfair for judging us eternally for a choice we didn’t make for which we were incapable of making and so I think somewhere in there there’s you know there’s this balance that yes it is all of God but but there is without agency there’s no responsibility and we do bear the responsibility for not responding with the Holy Spirit makes it possible for us therefore I would not go too far to say we’re incapable that makes sense uh with the ability like other Spirit creating like repentance within us because I think of somebody like like pharaoh who said no again and again and again and eventually the like response was taken away from him his heart was hard and then he wouldn’t respond anymore or like uh in Mark um when when the the Pharisees and scribes come and they’re they’re like oh he’s casting out of demons like like by demons he’s doing this um and she just talks about the like the unforgivable rest in the like denying of the Holy Spirit um and so I think I think like that’s just right is that the Holy Spirit within us is what allows us it creates within us a um ability to respond uh and then my question would be is the holy spirit within people who haven’t accepted Jesus yet the danger of using spatial metaphors is that certain assumptions can sometimes come and this is this would be one we usually reserve the space within it with regards to the spirit and and a person I’m thinking of Paul in First Corinthians 6 even second Corinthians 6. the temple is the place where the Holy Spirit dwells the Christian is that place I think you sure you could say it because God is omnipresent everywhere um but sometimes space betrays us and I think this could be one it would probably be better again you can’t absolutize spatial metaphors I think it’d be better to say the Holy Spirit works on the person and to use the word within to describe a Christian so regardless of the nomenclature um there’s an external effect of the spirit and when the person believes you can start using that internal just to be a little bit cleaner and more precise but do not deny the fact that the spirit is working whether it be you can speak of within because the spirit is working on the heart and the mind you just would have him dwelling with it foreign I want to make an observation as a pastor of 40 Years of Romina Grace has changed my life in helping people like many my age we got caught up and went to John Maxwell’s seminars and we heard a heavy emphasis on pragmatism that did have some good in it it did help me as far as dealing with people and yet I remember being condemned almost every Monday morning because I would look back say well nobody was saved yesterday and thought man I got to work harder and no matter how hard I work nothing changes and Dr Brown’s address how freeing it is realize God is responsible for results I’m responsible to be faithful teach the scriptures and that helped me tremendously the other thing that I thought has been great in learning is Dallas Willard’s effect in my life going back to Wesley’s approach of getting people into the means of Grace at some point in their obedience to God the old habits are going to be pushed out of their life if they don’t have something new in their place they’re going to revert back to Old more times than not and so we started a small group at our church where we get them faithful to the means of Grace that gets them set up for an encounter with God and it does work I am just thrilling with what I’m seeing out of that and I ask our brother back here in the back is good on small groups meetings I said if Wesley would give us the key and say the small group is a power of methodism why do we pick up everything else and leave that sitting on the sidelines I don’t get it because it truly works yes uh I would love to hear someone there address how uh convenient Grace relates to eternal security the sequel to the book will be post-venient grace you you normally don’t speak about pravinia Grace after salvation except in reflection and except in testimony in history but as Dr Nicholson highlighted from the book because it struck her that God’s grace is God’s grace and we label it and we describe it phenomenologically by how we view it it’s not like right different bats in heaven and oh provenian over there saving over here and sanctifying here I’m you know God’s grace and he’s all he’s doing these various Works uh towards one great end and the end is the same in all of us no matter what the timing of that work is by the spirit and that is to be conformed to the image of his son yeah I will say this because this is something that arminius addresses this is something that Wesley addresses as as well and uh and that is again this prevenient grace that is given to all minimally speaking is this ability to receive Grace and to either resist or cooperate or cooperate with it um arminius and Wesley believe that even after we become a Christian it is it is incumbent upon us to continue to cooperate not resist Grace and and so that we need Grace that not only uh justifies us and regenerates us but sustains us and sanctifies us but if you continue to come to a place even in as a as a Believer where you begin resisting Grace that is extremely dangerous spiritually and uh and so just as Faith saving faith is a gift of Grace it must be sustained by Grace as well and if you resist and continue to resist there can be the loss of faith that is there so this is the reason why for Wesley why uh those of you who know the Wesleyan tradition well know why uh a willful transgression of a known law of God why that is so spiritually dangerous uh as as a Believer because that is the ultimate sort of of resisting of the grace that comes to us in in Salvation in doing that so if you continue in it you continue in it and continue in it it can lead to death and so we don’t use the language in our Wesleyan tradition or the art or the Armenian tradition but the classic Catholic language is very helpful here Memorial mortal and finial sin or to use the the language that we find in first John chapter 5 the sin that leads to death and the sin that does not lead to death speaking to Christians in that regard as well I’m just curious how you the panel would theologically describe someone who really wants to um you know become a Believer and such but just can’t what is the theological description you would bear for this person maybe in their relationship to Grace but I think I would say they’re you know they’re resisting right that’s that’s the point that they’re at and it tends to be you know different reasons for different different people for some folks it’s an intellectual difficulty that they find insurpassable for a lot of folks it’s it’s different uh emotional uh difficulties that they’re experiencing whether it’s a trauma that they experience that they’re questioning the goodness of God um whether it’s you know whatever whatever it might be there’s a whole host of reasons and so wanting to believe a lot of times is saying I want to know that everything’s going to be okay I I want to have this wonderful Pie in the Sky beautiful kind of picture but life is more complicated than that sort of a feeling so so I think um you know a full desire to embrace God includes submission to God if Jesus says Lord we submit to our Lord and that means I don’t dictate to God the way that he has to be in order for me to worship him and so I think that’s that’s where a lot of times the Rob is is is my unwillingness to lay down uh those those difficulties I tend to hold things between me and God and say unless you deal with this the way that I want you to deal with this I’m not going to follow you I really want to follow you God but you got to do this and and that’s not what we’re called to do and and as somebody said earlier you know there are some of these things that that we’re just not going to know answers to this this side of heaven and and so there are times and places where we have to lay down things in faith and say Lord I don’t have it all worked out what I do know of you from scripture from my experience of you from all of these things is good and I’m going to trust you and then Lord help me figure out the rest and and so that the resistance is is the issue to be clear that we empathize with a person who can’t but ultimately I think we’d all say the person can foreign yes well that that may be what I would I would point to I do think that there is an issue of resistance and to try to identify resistance within a person but again uh you may notice I I talked about the Armenian magazine in these early Methodist testimonies to Awakening and conversion and entire sanctification and normally it was two years between when someone was uh awakened and the experience of conversion and uh four years four to six years between conversion and entire uh sanctification and uh this is even John Wesley’s own experience um you could talk about in 1725 uh after reading some Holiness literature uh the holy spirit is at work in his life and decides to get serious about God and he becomes ordained as a result of that but he didn’t really understand salvation by grace through faith until Peter bowler of Moravian shared that with him uh six months before his Aldersgate experience and six months before his Aldersgate experience he understood intellectually that God loved him and that Christ died on the cross to reconcile John Wesley himself to God he understood that intellectually but he didn’t understand it in the depths of his soul and as a matter of fact that’s when you hear this this famous dictum that um that bowler said to Wesley uh preach it until you have it and then you will notice about six months later five to six months later please hear me there was nothing that was resisting within Wesley in the midst of this but it was on May 24 1738 you all know his account of his conversion experience and that’s exactly what he called it as uh he went very reluctantly to Alderson he didn’t want to go Charles sort of forced him irresistible Grace of Charles Wesley that forced him to go to this meeting at Aldersgate and as Luther’s preface to the commentary on Romans was being read here Wesley’s words and I felt my heart strangely warm Wesley is being acted upon and I did believe that Christ died for me even me I do think sometimes it is resistance on our part sometimes it is people are trusting for not resisting but there is work that the spirit must do in preparation that fully prepares them for this moment Wesley actually doesn’t talk about this but if you ever read origin most of you might think origen’s Heritage but a good man well worth reading oh first principles first principles origin talks about this that God and God’s wisdom knows at what moment medicine needs to be applied to the heart and he does it in a way that is going to be to the most salutary effect in the midst of it and so sometimes what Wesley would do and you can read this in his journals we read his sermons you should read his journals is what you should read his letters of pastoral advice and and part of it is his his his emphasis on okay you haven’t been experienced conversion you haven’t experienced saving Faith trust the Lord with the grace that he’s given you um one of the uh one of the pushbacks that sometimes comes against the doctrine of convenient Grace from our our brethren in the um in the reformed tradition and and uh Dr Shelton you may have heard some of this in a three-hour response to your your seven minute video is uh is the argument that that the position of convenient Grace is really a pelagian um position and and as we were earlier discussing the you know this particular framework of of models of prevenient Grace there’s uh augustinian semi augustinian semi-pelagian but pelagians not even not even mentioned would it be correct to to say that that by its nature uh a a pelagian view of Salvation really kind of excludes Grace in the sense that in the sense that we would talk about it at least as Wesleyan arminians I like the way that you framed this because a lot of it is perspective and from that perspective comes series of emphases where we underemphasize or over emphasize right our own perspective I think narrowly speaking Pelagius is right is a great theological crime is the possibility of being able to work in obedience for salvation um and then from that come a lot of other implications uh so yes I think normally on that gradient wonderful gradient you describe Augustine somebody augustinian semi-palagian to pelagian plagian is really just lopped off because of because of this but still what is left is the augustinian semi-augustinian semi-pelagian for those from the place from which you came our positions all day long are inevitably semi-pelagian and we should just accept that at semi-pelagian because God is not the one who is predestining everything from salvation to the moment by moment even to the makeup in the dress of the panel that’s the extent of meticulous sovereignty and if that is not satisfied then anything is the threat of pelagianism and thus you have in the right and the lay petristic Early Middle Ages you’ve got this semi-pelagian controversy much of it stemmed around the nomenclature what does it mean to be one or the other and where do you draw the line I would say just to distill it all down in the answer to you I think where the rub lies is as long as Grace precedes thus Pelagius has been eliminated all of these positions are progress initial Grace Grace throughout even that it comes down to whether or not God allows us to not resist to use Dr bounds and Dr armenia’s language or even to cooperate to use a little more Wesley and even Eastern Orthodoxy if that thing is there for some it will be semi-pelagian regardless of the term because there’s a cooperationness that has is at work historical theology yeah good historical Theologian there I would just simply say what I all I would like for my uh augustinian calvinist friends at least is to describe our position in a way that we would recognize it as our position my question is for Dr Shelton you mentioned natural Revelation as one of the implications of prevenient Grace and so what kind of relationship do you think provenient Grace has just innately with the image of God through creation and what do you think is an active sort of new kind of work that God is doing either corporately or to each individual appreciate the question thank you Bruce because I broached the topic and no one has has uh has reached for it I think it’s an interesting argument to use the language that’s still safe in Romans 1 which is the best example people should have seen their creator but instead of worshiping Creator they worship a bird or a golden calf so if they should have known I think that pravinia Grace can be the work of the spirit through creation uh you know here’s somebody that here’s a story by the way Wesley’s conversion was part of or at least Wesley’s story is part of an example of someone who can speak of providing Grace Patrick is another I mean he has no gospel coming to him he is a slave among the Irish but sitting out on the hillside day after day as Shepherd he eventually begins to ponder and wonder about Crea about other Creator and Patrick’s confessions this is him reflecting in advance of what eventually comes to be a profession of faith and then of course escapes returns as missionaries to the same people who had enslaved him in that case it’s like God worked through creation and in Romans 1 God is working through creation the danger and where you can draw draw the line I think and still be safe is that if creation allows one alone to know God then you almost have a Works theology you have a powerful natural theology but like anything else leave it to our god to use just about anything to be able to work in the life of someone when it’s the Holy Spirit using the work nature just becomes a medium nature reflects I mean read the Psalms right nature cannot not reflect the glory of God Psalm 19 is a great example by the way referenced in Romans 1 same rhetoric even and so yes God is there but it’s a stretch maybe to say that God Saves through nature alone all you have to do is add the spirit I think you’ve got providing Grace and you’ve got a case just don’t leave nature alone to be the savior even after we adjourn here the conversation can go on and we’re not we’re not going to um tell everyone to get out to get off the property so you’re welcome to stay and continue to talk but we want to facilitate this kind of ongoing dialogue and what I would like to do is ask some of you just to articulate in one sentence what is your takeaway from this session and I’m not asking you to try to be the most brilliant person in the room that’s intimidating but really from a from an honest standpoint um we’re all people of worth so we don’t have to deal with competitiveness the issue is what is your takeaway and without trying to hand the mic around um that’s going to be a little unwieldy but just speak up just like almost a testimony meeting give me a half a dozen responses what is your take away from from this Symposium today I’ll be glad to before I pray though real quickly let me say to those of you particularly those of you who are local here in Wilmore this house is open to you all the time every day of the week we want to be a place you can come and find good Fellowship we want to be a place you can find a quiet corner um we may not have as many books as the library at either the University or the Seminary but we have a lot of books around here in places you can’t even see we can show you where there are more books and so if you want to come for a good hot cup of coffee and a place to hang out or even engage in a more semi-formal relationship of mentoring or coaching we’re happy to help you there as well we’re here to we’re here to serve you so let’s have a word of prayer together Lord God we uh we want to thank you today for these moments that you have given us the privilege of of sharing together today and Lord we we would ask that in your in your in your work of Grace in US that there would be something very convenient about today that in some way whether it be through a thought that was shared in this room that takes root and leads to a movement an Awakening Lord whether it is an idea that has been conceived in a heart for a way to express Ministry differently that becomes a foundation from which you move in the lives of many many people or even the one we ask today that our time and that your spirits work in us will not go will not go for none and so as we leave this place we claim the promise of Psalm 121 8 that you bless our going out and are coming in this day and forevermore we give you thanks in Christ’s name amen