Sustainable transport webinar from 14th March 2024 from Egin – supporting communities to tackle climate change – www.egin.org.uk. Scroll down for English.
Gweminar Trafnidiaeth Gwyrdd Mawrth 14 2024 gan Egin – cefnogi cymunedau i daclo newid hinsawdd – www.egin.org.uk
Yn aml mae’n anodd mynd o A i B yng Nghymru heb gar eich hun – a gyda argyfwng costau byw ac ymdrechion Cymru i gyrraedd Sero Net, mae cymunedau wedi bod yn codi i gwrdd â’r her. Yn y gweminar a thrafodaeth yma, byddwn yn clywed gan amrywiaeth o gymunedau dros Gymru am y gwahanol ffyrdd creadigol y maent wedi bod yn ceisio cynyddu mynediad at drafnidiaeth gynaliadwy, fforddiadwy. Rhai o’r pethau byddwn yn ei drafod: clybiau ceir, cerbydau trydan, bysiau cymunedol ar-alw neu dacsis, a’i gwneud yn haws i reidio (a thrwsio) beiciau.
Siaradwyr:
Huw Davies, rheolwr prosiect Dyffryn Caredig Partneriaeth Ogwen. Mae gan Huw dros 30 mlynedd o brofiad o weithio yn y trydydd sector. Gweithiodd gyda Phrif Swyddog y Bartneriaeth, Meleri Davies, ar brosiect Dyffryn Gwyrdd (2020 -2023) a’r prosiect Teithio Llesol Beics Ogwen 2021-2022. Mae nawr yn gyfrifol am y Dyffryn Caredig, prosiect diweddaraf y fenter sy’n canolbwyntio ar Drafnidiaeth Gymunedol Gynaliadwy.
Mae Partneriaeth Ogwen yn fenter cymdeithasol sy’n gweithio er budd economi, amgykchedd a chymunedau Dyffryn Ogwen.
Andrew Capel, TripTo. Cyd-sefydlodd ac arweiniodd Andrew Glwb Ceir Llani yn 2007. Gan ddechrau gyda dim ond un car ar fenthyg a thri aelod, arweiniodd eu hymdrechion yn y pen draw at fodel cynaliadwy, hunan-gyllidol. Dros 12 mlynedd, ehangodd y clwb, gan ymgorffori cerbydau trydan yn 2019 ac ymuno ag Agor Drenewydd i ddatblygu clwb ceir cerbydau trydan canolbarth Cymru, gyda’r enw TripTo. Ar hyn o bryd mae Andrew yn gweithio ar gydlynnu materion dydd-i-ddydd TripTo, sydd â 118 o aelodau a 5 cerbyd erbyn hyn. Mae Andrew yn chwarae rhan hanfodol mewn allgymorth cymunedol, ceisiadau grant, a mentora clybiau ceir newydd – gan gynnwys fel Mentor Cymheiriaid Egin. Mae o hefyd yn rhan o redeg y clybiau ceir TrydaNi yn Ne Cymru.
Willoughby Zimmerman, Spokesperson. Mae Willoughby yn actifydd eiriolaeth amgylcheddol a beicio erioed. Wedi gwneud dros ddegawd yn y diwydiant beicio, dechreuodd Willoughby SpokesPerson CIC yn 2019. Mae SpokesPerson yn gwmni budd cymunedol gyda chenhadaeth i gynyddu mynediad i feicio i bobl o gymunedau ymylol.
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It’s often a challenge to get from A to B in Wales if you don’t own a car – and with a cost-of-living crisis and Wales’s attempts to reach Net Zero, communities have been rising to meet the challenge. In this webinar and discussion, we’ll hear from a variety of communities across Wales about the various creative ways they’ve been trying to increase access to sustainable, affordable transport. Some of the topics we’ll discuss will include car clubs, electric vehicles, on-demand community-run buses or taxis, and making it easier to ride (and fix) bicycles.
Speakers:
Huw Davies, Partneriaeth Ogwen’s Dyffryn Caredig project manager, has over 30 years of experience working in the third sector. He worked with Partneriaeth’s Chief Officer, Meleri Davies, on the Dyffryn Gwyrdd project (2020 -2023) and the Beics Ogwen Active Travel project 2021-2022. He is now responsible for Dyffryn Caredig, the latest project of the enterprise which focuses on Sustainable Community Transport.
Partneriaeth Ogwen Partnership is a social enterprise that works to benefit the economy, environment and communities of the Ogwen Valley.
Andrew Capel co-founded and led Llani Car Club in 2007. Beginning with just one loaned car and three members, their efforts eventually led to resulted in a sustainable, self-funding model. Over 12 years, the club expanded, incorporating electric vehicles in 2019 and teaming up with Open Newtown to develop a mid-Wales EV car club, which is now known as TripTo. Andrew currently oversees the operation of TripTo, which has 118 members and 5 vehicles. Andrew plays a crucial role in community outreach, grant applications, and mentoring new car clubs – including as an Egin Peer Mentor. He is also involved in running the TrydaNi car clubs in South Wales.
Willoughby Zimmerman is a lifelong environmental and cycle advocacy activist. A veteran of over a decade in the cycle industry, Willoughby started SpokesPerson CIC in 2019. SpokesPerson is a community interest company with a mission to increase access to cycling for people from marginalized communities.
Okay hi everyone fanda my name is Matt swall I am along with my colleague Louisa who is also with us today uh we are the joint um head of Outreach and engagement at DTA Wales and we both jointly manage the eggin program so um it’s really great to see
Everyone here today and we are going to be discussing the topic of moving towards sustainable transport and it’s uh topic we we really part of what Egan’s doing is about uh Egan is all about um helping communities in Wales to take their first steps to tackle climate change uh become more
Sustainable and uh sort of particularly wanting to work with those who are most um at risk of of um being uh hurt by climate change um but also those that are just beginning to think about what they could do and how to uh take steps to um to start to tackle it
So uh we’ve been running for just over a year and uh it’s been great to support many groups across Wales already we’ve got funding for another five years um so it’s a long-term program as part of what we do as well as supporting groups directly is try to bring together people
Uh to talk about different themes topics within the whole wide uh area of climate change and one of those is of course um transport and how do we make our transport more sustainable and so um just it’d be great just a bit of housekeeping before we
Carry on um we do have three speakers with us today which I’ll introduce in a moment um two of them will be speaking in Welsh so we do have a Welsh interpreter with us today who will be translating into English so if you would rather listen to the English translation
Then if you look in your Zoom screen you should be able to see a globe called with interpretation underneath it and click that and select English and then you’ll be able to hear um the English interpretation whenever someone is speaking in Welsh and you should also be
Able to hear people when they just speak in in English so that’s the plan and if if you’d rather just listen to the original um Welsh then don’t click that button you’ll just hear the original audio of everybody and hopefully that’s going to work for everyone but do shout if it doesn’t
Um yeah and in the chat uh that’s yeah um and our translators put a message in there to remind you what to do so um we would also like to ask everyone if you wish to to just put into the chat uh who you are and uh maybe what community
Group if you are organization you’re linked with whereabouts you’re based in Wales just so we have an idea of who is on the call today and we hope it can be an interactive session the kind of structure of it will be uh we’ll be asking our three speakers to give who
Are all from different Community projects around around Wales to give um a kind of short uh maybe up to 10 minute like uh summary of what their projects about and what they think of in term what they help how they’re um helping to achieve sustainable transport in their
Own different ways and at the end of that we’ll be we’ll hear from all three and then there’ll be a chance to take them to take questions uh from anybody in the room uh and we’ll hopefully get a bit of a discussion going as well we and
We’ll aim to finish at 3:00 so uh that is the topic for today and the way it’s going to work um I will now introduce the speakers so today we’re very excited to have with us um Willoughby Zimmerman who is a lifelong environmental and cycle advocacy activist um a veteran of
Over a decade in the cycle industry will be started spokesperson cic in 2019 in uh in card if I believe spokesperson is a community interest company with a mission to increase access to cycling for people from marginalized communities we also have Andrew Capel uh who co-founded and led Clan car
Club in 2007 beginning with just one loaned car and uh their members their efforts eventually led to result resulted in sustainable self-funding model and over 12 years that club’s expanded and we’ll hear more about that from Andrew he plays a crucial role in community outreach Grant applications
And mentoring new car clubs uh and Andrew is also an eggan peer mentor he’s also involved in running the trani car clubs in South Wales and our third speaker is Hugh Davis who um comes from North Wales uh he works with partner are at ogwen is the Duffin kig project
Manager with over 30 years of experience working in the third sector he worked with partner area chief officer M Davis on the Duffin G project for 2020 to 2023 and the M awen active travel project from 2021 to 2022 and he now responsible for Dufferin kig which is the latest
Project of the Enterprise which focuses on sustainable community Transport so um I am we’re going to start here first of all we going to hear from Willoughby so if I pass over to you Willoughby and I’ll share my screen so I can share your SL slides one Second if you have any questions throughout feel free to just pop them in the chat so they don’t get forgotten I will pick them up at the at the end um after the three speakers have given their presentations sh screen am I not seeing a share screen okay did you all see that
Hopefully so um yeah this is my um first slide uh it’s a my that’s my um my logo spokesperson cic and what we do is basically um trying to break down the barriers um to cycling specifically for marginalized people um because of um when I started it up um I noticed that
There’s I guess my my interest is um there’s already a very small percentage of people who are cycling and then there’s a lot of people who are not and what my um previous experience has told me um after so many years working in in cycling is that
Um why those people are not cycling and choosing um active travel in general but my my expertise is cycling is um I’ve it’s never ever because they don’t want to everybody um everybody who is in that majority of people who are not choosing active travel
Travel um there is a barrier there so if you if you go to the next slide Um obviously when I started up I I started up a spokesperson in 2019 um but I’ve gotten um uh some statistics from uh more recent statistics from the bicycle Association report from 2023 they haven’t changed much um not going to surprise anybody um in five years that there hasn’t been a
Huge change in the UK in um the statistics related to who cycles and who doesn’t so um for example um it’s not going to surprise anybody I’m sure that um two times as many men um cycle on a regular basis as women um and if you go to the next slide
Please um so out of ethnic minority groups something like 14% of people that um are black Asian or minority ethnic um cycle on a regular basis 12% of people with a dis disability and um lgbtq plus people uh 19% of them cycle on a regular basis
Um and so you can see in each one of these categories there’s a little sliver of blue but what I’m really interested in is that much larger percentage of the pie that’s in red um because that’s a lot of people um and um if you go to the next slide please
So the anarcho principle all unha unhappy family all happy families are alike but each unhappy family is uh is unhappy in its own way is the opening lines of the novel so what I what I found is that most people the people the reasons that people do uh do not cycle or
Myriad and as diverse as people themselves but it’s never well not never um but in my experience I’ve yet to have the person that when they say oh I don’t cycle has just been when I’ve said oh why not has just been like don’t feel
Like it you know I mean on a day like today perhaps but like as as a regular thing as a continual thing why do you not own a bike why do you or participate in cycle share schemes or whatever um the answer I don’t think has ever been Um it doesn’t appeal to me obviously in principle cycling appeals to everybody um so I set out in 2019 to um try and sort of address that Um and find ways because and find ways um to change that I don’t csyo because I’m not able to and bicycle because I’m able to and there’s um and figure out what what those various barriers are um so um and um um my my focus has mostly been um obviously there’s like things
That are sort of top down that are sort of society-wide big structural things that would encourage more people to cycle um and I think a lot of people that are trying to encourage and promote active travel um are really focused on those and they’re great and they’re good and they will
Encourage more cycling overall however there’s a lot of things um that are not simply more infrastructure um that are not going to help that um you know many many people um what I found working with um people of color and lgbtq people is that um what’s preventing them from cycling
Um has like for example has been has been um their experiences of going outside in public um and especially doing something Um that is generally quite social you do it within like a a social group of your peers like learning to cycle most of us learn to cycle amongst other kids when we were a kid and those groups in those groups lots of people tend to who are uh marginalized whether their experiences
Are those of people of color or lgbtq plus people or lgbtq plus people of color um they experience harassment bullying um so then facing going into that space which let’s face it is a vulnerable space to go into like trying to operate this machine and not hurt
Yourself and possibly look like a bit foolish doing it um and with that that fear on top of that of um of the bullying and harassment that’s that is a barrier and it’s not a barrier that more Psychopaths will will fix um so Um yeah that’s um sort of what spokesperson kind of does um and um in order to try and um and uh address those barriers try and bring them down there’s um the very very physical you know measures that we do like I operate um programs that are Grant
Funded um and do things like teaching um adults to cycle and um and forming groups um of adult Learners um and those are all people from the same same uh background so I’ve recently completed a project where I um worked with lgbtq plus people adults that
Didn’t know how to cycle and then once um they learned how to cycle I um I taught them How to cycle once they learned how to cycle they formed like a sort of Buddy system group where they then came along for the next person’s lessons and then would cycle together as
Like cycling buddies um so um in addition to sort of teaching them cycling it’s also building a supportive relationship Within the lgbtq plus Community um uh so there’s those projects but also I feel like um there’s a lot of uh a lot of thought um that’s necessary to sort of crack
Crack the problem if you will um looking at things from new angles uh so for example um I I uh use a lot of my ways of of thinking of strategies like base them on the bike thems my my metaphorical like let’s let’s take that as our jumping off
Point um maybe because I’m a mechanic but um so for example um you know some I’ve worked with um my neighbors in in but toown um there’s a lot of people that are um Muslim and a lot of Muslim women don’t want to cycle and clothing that
Is they see as a modest and also it’s just like not their regular clothing um and I know traditionally a lot of uh a lot of people would be like nope got to have your trousers you’ve got to have the you’ve got to have the um fabric to
Be tight so it’s not going to get caught and everything well why should we expect people to change themselves when the technology is able to change You’re simply able to fit guards around Wheels You’re simply able to fit mud guards onto the back and skirt guards onto it
Like you can change the the technology to enable people um so rather than expecting people to change themselves to access the technology to make concessions um to their comfort um to their appearance to their self-expression Um I you know we don’t we don’t expect that from any other form of Technology really um so why not change the the bike and that is like a very physical example of that but I do believe that that sort of thinking is sort of necessary and integral to the entire way
We look at how we um approach um uh allowing diversity to um Thrive and increase within cycling and active travel um I’ve rabbited on for a bit um does anyone have any questions well we could take uh one one question now um and then we’ll have a more general question and answer session
After the the other two speakers have spoken I think so maybe just one question if anyone as well um oops Yeah me Andrew um that it sounds really good what you’re doing I mean I’ve just posted saying that the the cycling body idea is one of those
Key things and then you also said about um arranging the bike to work for the person as opposed to making the person fit the bike I mean is there a third key aspect to what you’re doing that you haven’t mentioned Um uh I’m I’m cons I’m really conscious of time I mean I feel like okay there’s um let okay it’s one for you to think about because I think there is a third is what was what I’m trying to say but you may not be aware of it but it just just
Struck me that you’ve got two key things there that really make a difference to you know in in the way you’re it and I think there might there might be a third but I leave that for you as homework I I think some of it is we Um we really pitch cycling Um and push it really hard for its benefits you know if you cycle it will benefit everyone around you you know if you get out of your car you know it’s this it’s almost like trying to sell people broccoli um no that’s not a good example because I like broccoli brussels sprouts
You know is good for you do it um and I think Um we kind of sell ourselves short and that it doesn’t it’s actually fun unlike brussel sprouts it um um it it actually and not only is it fun it gives you a way to be social it’s just a more social way of moving through the world um it gives you better
Well-being so um and also I think it’s important um that we recognize that um people even even if you know I think we tend to very much focus on how can we get Um people with the money to own cars to stop driving their cars into cities and creating pollution how can we how can we get them onto bikes and like and it’s almost like they’re because they’re the focus of a lot of people’s efforts we almost value them
More and it’s like well hang on you know there’s there’s a lot of benefits um to cycling and just because a person is disabled and unemployed doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t also um we shouldn’t be doing our bet to make sure that they get those benefits too um
Just because I’m just conscious of time because uh yeah loads of points um you moved on to the next speaker yes brilliant thank you um and hopefully we’ll have a bit more of time for discussion after we’ve heard from Andrew and Hugh so uh next speaker is Andrew so
Without further Ado I will move Andre Okay Matt so Andre and um and nor and un voice um get a tree or bubble AR V bar Bob um so get a get a carav p ped um okay so um King so king um a of course all of you
So are all H um Bon D die BL that’s for PR care ready in Honey um and now um my z um my zi glass EV or EV car Tran um um and brother trip e trip two uh Nathan project Club P or with a um open new town weding and uh ranii
And my car um on the scene are are there are you um you Iona my car and F get a club care F so yeah okay so sit my gra here sit s my club I care and gra you well I’m going have my R and CLE High fand guys a um and
Umid um be po um or um um again session um my uh and grao and and ran ran ran and my my my person um Bo and Sh Club care and red de and and v um he um um so system um umine so so or um Dory P pimp um kog Um High P hour and ready ready gapo uh Pedra de D pint and Bob um D hour um heid dis B and um Roy um car or o ol or um Pim um pint so um Pim de Pink so bethley um side Ola so BL um of course
Um die car um my D car you my bingo I car umid mying car car in ready ready de umid so so ready ready Goin thank you Andre and then we’ll just move smoothly onto H so let me just bring open the Slides yeah for Chrisan for um Mg for Co for for For for C [Applause] for for Wat For thank you very much everyone for all your contributions really um and varied varied perspectives um what’s coming clear though is that um accessibility is really important um but on that note I’m going to put it to the floor anybody have any questions for the um for any of the conversations any
Questions I have a question for um about for Andrew CLE about the um the Car Hire scheme or the car share system um I was wondering I mean my main question is about you must have an insurance provider um and did they simply have did you simply go to an insurance
Provider and do they have like some sort of like rate Um I’ll stop you there because the insurance is is a real tricky thing these days I mean to start with we went to the nfu um um and we and but over the years the number of insurance providers have disappeared and right now there is nobody that will ensure Community car
Clubs they just it’s a what you call it a market failure I don’t know but uh the last provider of not renewing not providing renewal so we are actually um working with various people um to try and solve this solution solve solve this problem sorry um because yeah that it’s
It’s um it needs to be sorted they just run they’ve run scared we aren’t a risk they don’t really understand us some of them don’t really want to understand us just take our money and then they get cold feet so um I don’t have a good word to say about
Many insurance providers at this moment sa that I would say that it’s I think it’s one of for all of us I think a lot of us are out here doing things that kind of making up as we go along things that don’t exist in in um the
Society at large you know and so well particularly insurance companies um you know trying to get an insurance company um and they’re like well what does your business do and I’m like well we do this and this and this and they’re like oh we have no idea how much that’s going
To cost to you know um uh you might sorry will you might need to just have different insurance policies for different different aspects of the business so like like like obviously you if you’re employee people you have a a business policy for that side you know um I remember what it’s
Called now and then you have another business policy that would perhaps cover you for um for the cars you that so you probably have to be very with insurance people you have to talk to them you have to learn to communicate with them because as soon as they hear a word they
Don’t right they could run away even if you didn’t mean it um they’re very sensitive creatures some of them um but yeah I just think they have a it’s not our I think we are working outside the box and we have to learn to way to communicate what we’re doing in a way
That they will Understand thank you I think um Sean has a question as well thank you and I hope you can hear me cuz my signals off keep dropping off but you said Hugh that one of the reasons for your you starting up your club was um to resolve local parking
Issues and I’d be interested in Andrew’s um take on this as well did it did it resolve the parking issues if so like how bad was it before and what’s the measure by which you can see yeah it’s made a difference um yeah just a little
Bit of more detail about that would be really useful de um for just like to say something I mean parking isn’t an issue not well I moved to aist with but um um I mean the reason we start I started a car club was because I I didn’t want to have a I
Didn’t want to own a car anymore um and I I just basically found three other people who who shared that idea and um and and we took it from there off um I think Edwin has his hand up and then we go to Kate it was Kate Kate first it was
Kate oh thank you going um I don’t know if you can hear me it’s s a bit similar to Sean’s question really while I’ve been sitting here listening I’ve just been thinking how do you Market your services it’s it’s about Behavior change how do we because I’m looking at a
Similar thing in the area here near to where Shan is um how to get something started how to get people to leave the cars and get on a shutle bus um how to sort of incentivize that behavior I wondered if you had any successes or bright ideas For for y um G oh yeah um question Andrew um Insurance um yeah just another another question um I’ll get aant Dem bu see um D pimp oid name Mo and Med g g g um so i’ do me yeah yeah M an of they don’t want to know about it yeah for
Tony hi um I was just wondering um Andrew or anyone else uh who might kind of think it’s relevant to them um do you have um places that are already interested in an expansion of your schemes or do you look to support new organizations to develop in those
Areas so thank you Tony great question basically we’ve just been successful in securing a a grant from the wsh government to expand Community car clubs throughout Wales so we are looking for people or organizations um who who want a car club in their area and we we we like to see
Proof so we need to find we need to find say 25 people who want a car club use use a car club themselves not just people who think it’s a good idea there’s there’s far more than there plenty of those I’m glad to say but so
We will go where where we are invited to we will not impose this on anybody um that that I we know from experience that doesn’t work so if there were 25 people who were interested in joining together for a club would they need to form their own
CL car club or would that then be sufficient to sit underneath trip too and yes I mean we would I would say when you’ve got the 25 or thereabouts is talk to me but I I will also come I’ll come and talk to you I’ll
Come and meet you we and we talk about how it can work in this with you in your area you we have if like we have a model but actually that model has to be adjusted to local needs so you very very very clean on that that we’re not
Imposing we’re going to save you a lot of time and money because you don’t have to reinvent the wheel um but we want to make sure it works and that we can have the the those people the first people that started to like the roots so if we
Want it rooted in your community because once it’s rooted it can grow like it has done in munle and planid lo you know they’ve been going M has been going up 25 maybe longer 25 years and planid L about no 27 years and pl L 17 years so
You know it’s very important to have that you know roots or those the core group as it were in to start it off I think we need to have another conversation Andrew possibly very soon great Tony um just one question for me which would which I think would be really
Interesting is around Financial sustainability with your model so for Andrew you’ve talked um your is it3 an hour I believe you to hire a car or 42 um for 24 hours um so and the cost of insurance and stuff so in terms of financial modeling is it
Generating his own income or are you based on a a grant stroke income what’s your model financial model then in terms of sustaining the business well as it stands at the moment we are not we’re not financially sustainable um we were we were up until we got our first
EV um because the cost of insurance went up and the cost of the cars went was obviously you know more significant um but we’re working on it I mean I say this is early days you with the I mean we’ve been going yes 17 years
But in terms of the new model we’re now work or the we’re working in we are dependent on you know the financial input but if we were a commercial company we’d have to do the same would have to raise money in the market to get
Going so I I’m no shame in that but we are working towards making it financially and insurance is part of that because I mean uh Hugh said it was very expensive and we’re paying 200 plus per month per car you know yeah what about you who um what’s
The model because a lot of yours is that for social locally by the 7 isn’t it so what’s your financial model and how you balancing bothies for yeah yeah um one more then just for will be because I am really conscious that that we are approaching the end so
Willoughby you talked about some of your um groups and and that the work that you do breaks down lots of barriers for people just in starting to get out on the bikes and engaging out of interest do you have any um information on the number of people that you’ve engaged
With who have continued to ride bikes you’re on M um I know that um of the number of people it’s it’s difficult because it’s um there’s the people I that um yeah there’s there’s some projects that I’ve just done since the beginning um like running a an all
Abilities Cycling group I don’t call it a club um just like a group and we do a ride once a month um and that’s been going from the beginning um and but that’s that’s a lot harder to monitor um because it’s it’s much more informal I know that of the people that I
Have um worked with in the various projects um they have continued to um cycle um most of them um uh because they’re they’re beginner cyclists they’re not really using it for commuting um most of them do continue to cycle um regularly when there’s good weather for uh Recreation and purposes
Um and they they continued to engage in it um uh but my that’s that’s going the only those projects have only been ongoing for two years so whether it’s like a a whole lifestyle change I don’t know yet but they have yeah brilliant thank you very much it’s really interested to listen to
Everybody’s contribution and what’s really interesting is that we’re all everybody’s on a different journey and we’re all facing lots of different barriers that we’ve got to overcome and hopefully especially from an insurance perspective perhaps the policy holders can help negotiate with us some different terms and conditions um because otherwise
We’re not going to be you know we always going to be facing these barriers so the next steps then is we’re going to end this recording and this recording is going to be available um available to you all uh Matt will put it up on where
Are we going to put it up Matt it will be on egin’s website uh YouTube channel sorry um yeah once we’ve added uh our subtitles for the translations so and if you’re all happy we’ll be more than happy to share emails for you to continue some of these
Conversations and you to link up and have better understanding of each other’s project anybody and happy with that you can let me know yeah no brilliant thank you very much everyone just to say there’s been a couple Tony’s asked for a couple of people’s email addresses in the chat um
Gin and Kate so I don’t know if uh those email addresses want to be either put in the chat for everyone or or directly to Kate uh directly to Tony uh let’s do that before we close off but um yeah if anyone else wants to add their email
Address in there um so that people can get in touch with them feel free and we’ll close it in a in a minute so you got a Chance you very